Every Single Album - Outlandish Rumors and a 'Midnights (The Til Dawn Edition)' Deep Dive | Every Single Album: Taylor Swift

Episode Date: June 14, 2023

The Summer of Taylor Swift continues, with Nora and Nathan first addressing some outlandish Taylor Swift rumors that were floating around the internet this week (1:00). Then they talk about the meaning behind "You're Losing Me" (9:36) and two songs released with 'Midnights (The Til Dawn Edition)': "Snow on the Beach (Feat. More Lana Del Rey)" (24:25) and "Karma (Feat. Ice Spice)" (31:55). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You may find this hard to believe, but 60 songs that explain the 90s. America's favorite poorly named music podcast is back. With 30 more songs than 120 songs total. I'm your host, Rob Harvilla, here to bring you more shrewd musical analysis, poignant nostalgic reveries, crude personal anecdotes, and rad special guests, all with even less restraint than usual. Join us once more on 60 Saws that Explain the 90s every Wednesday on Spotify. Hello and welcome to every single album. I'm Nora Pinciotti. I am here with Nathan Hubbard

in the second installment of the summer of Taylor Swift. Nathan, how's it going? It's the summer of Taylor Swift. What do you mean how it's going? It's going great. Everything is chaotic. We're moving on from Detroit. It seemed like Detroit was great. Flavre Flavre was there. The city of bridges. Yes, Flavor Flav was there requesting friendship bracelets. Friendship bracelets. from the Swifties and seemed to get a bunch of them, which I have to be honest with you, even though I, like, fully negged your JJ Watt-related take about, like, the men.

This is what I'm saying. Okay, I didn't buy it with J.J. Watt. I do buy it with Flav-A-Flave. If Flav-A-Flave is on board, like, I think that's meaningful. That's a data point. He seems to be genuinely into it. I mean, as these cultural phenomenons just shoot through the sky,

occasionally there are people who try to hitch their wagons to them. This might be a theme we talk about when we talk about the Karma Ice Spice remix. But, you know, so I'm never quite sure whether there's authenticity to the fandom of people who are sending lots of social media posts about them being at Taylor Swift shows. But there was something. Aaron Rogers. First of all. Yeah.

Aaron Rogers. There is something cool about Flav of Flav, period. and there is something super cool about him going and actually engaging with fans. I didn't see no friendship bracelets on Aaron Rogers. Yeah. I'm going to spend the entire summer dragging Aaron Rogers. It's going to be a little bit unwarranted,

but it's going to be happening. The Jets are going to go 6 and 11? What's your call this year? No, I think they'll be pretty good. They'll be pretty good, but it just won't matter. I don't want to steal content from the ringer football stuff. He should have gone to the NFC. like I almost want to give him credit

for going to a conference with so many good quarterbacks but it just makes no sense it makes absolutely no sense for what he wants to do but this is for another podcast I think he's a better quarterback for the Jets than Flava Flav

but it may be that Flavav is a better Swifty than Aaron Rogers anyway I do want to say that this might have been the most drama-free Taylor week of the summer so far disagree fine, I want you to bring the heat. Let's talk about it.

But the one thing, I mean, there was this thing flying around the dark corners of TikTok that she was retiring yesterday. And I briefly, I had one of my kids come to me. What the literal? Yes. See? There was like a fake statement that got put around where she was just over the drama and it was enough and she was going to stop making music going forward. and it was brought to me by one of my kids, which is saying something about me as a parent, but also about the depths of the internet sort of, like, not unlike the Meg, the movie,

that this horrible shark of misinformation came up from the depths of the ocean and got into the place, you know, the real ocean, which is people's minds in the mainstream. It broke through this week. I think it's easily debunked, but did you see nothing about this? I completely missed this. And I'm honestly glad I did because, I don't think I'm like not, we were talking about this off air.

I'm apartment hunting right now and it is just like exhausting. And like I'm not in the mental, I'm not in the mental place that I would need to be to have handled a even slightly credible seeming Taylor Swift retirement rumor. Like it would have it would have broken me. It's good that you don't have a tweenish daughter. That's all I'm going to say. Because there are some tweenish daughters who were freaking the F out. Right. Who were freaking the F out over the past.

few days. Okay, so then why do you feel like it was a drama-free week? There's, like, weird stuff online that she's going to, you know, hang them up. Shakily credible outlets are reporting that Joe is whining about getting the, quote, Harry Stiles treatment, which is just ridiculous. Like, how is this the, this week was not drama-free? Maybe it's just because the other weeks where we're at an 11. But, like, what is your argument here?

I teach me about the drama. get into it then. All right. It's not really the absence that is interesting. It's the presence. So what was present this week, Nor?

So first of all, you just told me what was present. You told me that there was a, a serious rumor circulating in the deep web that she was going to retire. And then also in like radar online or some like very,

very, very, uh, dog shit publication. Just like mounds and mounds and mounds of salt. But like I will give it airtime. because I'm irresponsible, but also because I thought it was funny. There was a report citing friends of Joe

saying that he was embarrassed by you're losing me and by the Maddie Healy thing. But then the, which like, whatever, I don't care. The thing that was funny about it was that the syntax that this person who's either making shit up or like knows Joel Alwyn somehow used was that he was upset that he was getting the quote unquote Harry Stiles treatment of having.

a song written about it. What? I mean, what do you expect? First of all. When you went into the dive bar on the east side, like you knew what you were getting into, homie. First of all, you and I have talked about this before.

Harry, in the songs that were written about him, comes off looking probably way cooler and more mysterious than he ever deserved to be. Joe. James Dean. Joe is dreaming for the Harry-Style treatment, or at least he should be. Like, getting dumped for Maddie Healy is, it's worse, babe. Oh, wow.

Yeah, fair enough, I think, but there's no complaint about getting, like, you knew what you signed up for. Like, yes, she's going to move on. Yes, you're going to get a song. And there will be songs. I mean, look, it's so, okay, we're going to talk about, we're going to spend this episode talking about you're losing me and some of the more Lana Del Rey and the Karma remix

because for as many takes as we were able to get off last week about some of those songs, I don't think that we had... Ridiculousness. We didn't have time to just like totally talk about them as songs, which particularly in the case of

you're losing me, is like kind of a weird thing to talk about because it's the thing that I want to ask you is like, will this ever be a song to you? Or is it just like a thing that Taylor Swift did that gets wrapped up in everything that happened with Joe and the breakup and is sort of like a moment in time more so than it is a musical statement? But the thing is like the thing that just made me laugh about this thing, which might be totally fake, was just that like if just say nothing, Joe. You had a real opportunity.

You had just a real, real, real opportunity when she was being a little bit messy. to all of a sudden go from what's up with Joe? He seems nice, but it's a little bland to just like, oh, man, Joe's looking real good by comparison. Just don't speak. Like this is the message. Every week we're going to say some version of this to some dude. Just don't speak. Just don't talk.

It can only get worse. I mean, you should say that more to me. It seemed like he had most of the fan base on his side for a little while. Not that it's a popularity contest. That's what I'm saying. When you have the entire fan base on your side, don't go whining about getting the Harry Styles treatment, which isn't even a thing.

I don't think he did. This is a man who stayed quiet for six years while dating one of the most famous people in the world. I don't think that right now is his time to, through a friend, put some bland-ass vanilla statement out into the press. I just don't buy it. I think it's bullshit. I think this guy, I believe there was some principle into the way that he behaved over the last six years while in a celebrity-focused relationship.

And it seems unlikely that that's the way that he would break it. All right. I hope that's true. The catalyst, whether he did or didn't or whatever, we'll put that to the side. But the reason that gets any oxygen whatsoever is in part because we have this new song. You're losing. I can't find a pulse. My heart won't start anymore. And last week we got to talk about You're losing me a little bit

in terms of the context in which it came out and the it being sold on the CDs at MetLife. But I really want to hear what you think about it as an actual piece of music. And I've found, which is why I was bringing up the idea of if you're able to hear it just as a song, I found that that's very difficult for me.

Like, it's very hard for me to listen to that song and get to, you know, get to the bridge, which I do, I do really enjoy just for how it sounds. I love how it builds. But it is so hard for me to get to, and I wouldn't marry me either and not just be like, oh my God, they were together for six years.

And he posted all this Instagram stuff for cats. And like, I almost can't hear it. Where are you on that journey? How do you feel when you listen to Shudukut-a-wo-da? So good. Like, I want to commit crimes, but in a good way. So you don't have to separate the song from, or the music from the point of the song in that situation.

No, like, and I don't, and maybe this is to your point, I'm not really thinking about John Mayer when I listen to it. Like I kind of am with Dear John, although in a weird way, less than you would think. Those songs, there's a righteousness,

there's a righteous anger, and there is something about this. I regret you all the time is a hell of a just javeling to the heart. And there's like a power in, oh, Taylor Swift has these feelings and is writing about them so powerfully.

And I get to relate to that and feel the strength of that. Like when I listen to what it could have should have, it's one of those songs where if I have it in my headphones and I'm walking down the street, I have to like mouth the words because it has to come out of me in some way. And then I'm just like, I'm being an absolute freak show of a human walking down the street.

But there's like so much energy in it. You're losing me. Even though I think the concept of someone not, you know, loving someone, but also knowing that they're not fighting for you. Like that's something a lot of people go through. Yes. like that is a song about Taylor Swift's relationship with Joe Allwin to me, at least right now.

Like, I cannot break it. I think it's an excellent point. I'm sorry, I called it shoulda coulda would instead of woulda coulda shoulda. I do that all the time. I will never know the name of that song, even though it's like, what are my favorites? I regret it all the time. Pardon the pun. I think it's a really good point, Nora.

And I have the same feeling. I actually really love the song. But this is one that I feel like we lived with her. and for six years, not six years, but probably the last three in the back of everyone's mind, we spoke about it briefly on the pod. The question was, is she going to get married? Does she want to get married? Why isn't she married?

We're not seeing a lot of her. Yeah, we had a pandemic where everyone disappeared for two or three years. But like, this is an artist who has survived in many ways by constantly being everyone's best friend. you're wondering about your best friend. What's happening in this relationship? And, I vee, the timing of it,

too, is the one for me that was hard because it came in parallel to the public, if not formal confirmation of her relationship with Maddie Healy. There was something that happened indirectly that prepped people for the fact

that he was going to be at the Nashville shows and around and, And so the fact that this showed up, I, it felt more like a smack and a slap than it did a song. Maybe it was her explanation. And that's why for me,

I look at this and I go, when did this song get written? Was this written six months ago, a year ago? Or was this song written in the last two months? And that it functions more as an explanation to the fan base than much else. And in that regard, man, it's harsh. It's harsh. Yeah.

I mean... It makes me sad. It adds to the sadness. Yeah. I guess it's harsh. Although if it's true, if it's coming from a place of truth, it is a song about her not being wanted in the way that she wants to be, which has always been, you know, well-worn territory for a lot of songs

of hers that we love. So in that sense, I don't know that it's, you know, crossing some line that's never been crossed before. One line that really interests me in it is, you know, there's, the heartbeat is such a powerful tool. And she's used that before in production. But having that in a song like this and then having it just drop out. Stop.

Yeah. In the last line of the song is, is gut-wrenching. I can't find a pose. my heart won't start anymore. But there is that line early on where she says my heart won't start anymore and then there's a pause and then it's for you.

I can't find a pulse. My heart won't start any... Which I find really fascinating because sometimes... And I think we've talked about this in the past a bunch, this idea that often she will write these really, really, you know,

pained, emotional songs to work through rejection. But even when she does, something that ends up being really satisfying for the listener and for someone who's maybe trying to relate to them is that there is still this sense of like power and remove that often comes through in one little line. And I can't quite figure out what I feel about the fact that that is present here too. because it almost, it stands a little bit in contrast with how devastating the bridge is, right? Like if you wanted to spend your entire life with someone and they just didn't want to.

Yeah. To simultaneously have that little bit of, I will be okay because my heart won't start anymore for you, but for someone else it could. Like there's an incongruence there that is interesting, but that is tough for me to figure out just like where this was coming from and exactly what place this was coming from. And I think it speaks to the same timeline question because that for you, to me, offers a little bit more in terms of processing and starting to do the work of getting over and moving on. whereas so much of the bridge, which is my favorite part of the song. And even though it is the most,

I think emotionally devastating in the lyrics, where the, you know, say something, do something, choose something, where all of that starts building together is I think the most musically interesting and satisfying part of the song. And maybe that's what it represents, right? Like you have good days and bad days.

You wake up some days and go, I will never get over this person as long as I live in my life. Might as well be over. and then you have a good night out with your friends and go, oh, yeah, there's, there's, there were a lot of things wrong with that and there's more to life than what I was doing, you know, with the guy from conversations with friends or whatever it is. So that's the musical equivalent or the equivalent within the song of that timeline question for me where I can't quite

pin down exactly where this came from. When I say it's harsh, I just mean it's harsh and it's honesty. And I think this is a breakup song that it's a mature breakup song because she's taking, stop, you're losing me. Sounds like a traditional Taylor Swift song where she's pointing the finger at somebody else. But I think in the verses, she's actually exposing the real emotional tension that she has, which is she's not feeling it. And the decision that she's having to make is whether to end this or to keep fighting for something that is the longest romantic relationship

that she's had in her life. I think it's very clear and we all can unsurprisingly acknowledge that you're never going to take the romantic out of Taylor Swift. So it's not surprising to me that she never gets to a place where she doesn't think

she could find love elsewhere. I think her entire life and career and writing is focused on her obsession with love in many ways. So the data, the day that you're losing me, that you're losing me, right, echoes hope I never lose you. And hope I never lose you, hope it never ends.

Which is devastating, but it's also a reflection of that cycle. And in some, like, that was that quality in her, that romantic quality in her and that, like, obsession, right? With love and marriage was always a factor that made, I think, some of the stuff with, you know, how long she'd been with Joe and what was going on there and why we hadn't seen her. Like, that was such a complicated thing because you really, really, really,

or at least I do, want to lend credibility to the, you know, the Lavender Hayes' 1950s shit. Like, maybe that's not what she wants. Because it's not what any woman should have to want. Right.

But there's always this little thing where it's like, this is the girl who wrote love story. Yes. Like, she wants this. And Nora, we wondered why, geez, we thought maybe a bunch of the re-records were going to be a way for her to potentially take some time off. I mean, we heard from inside, deep inside her camp four or five years ago the notion that maybe she didn't want to do this forever. Maybe she didn't want to do this forever. And that, you know, maybe she wanted to take some time and who knew exactly.

And then we had, again, this unprecedented run of creativity with Album. after album after album after album. And again, in the back of our minds, we were constantly like, hey, she's, you know, her mother was sick. She's getting into her 30s. Like, does she want to start a family? Does she want to get married? Why is she? Why is she not? And this answers a lot of those questions for us, which is that it feels like there was a period of time where she was working really hard to try to keep this thing together because, gosh, the pain and just the terror of starting over, as we spoke about last week, is the most famous person in the world. It is impossible to find somebody just naturally off the street who might be, you know, the future husband and father of your children,

I suspect. So it's such a scary proposition to walk into that. This to me just unlocks and answers a lot of the questions about what was happening with her creatively over the last four or five years. The backdrop is she had a relationship where it appears she had a partner who wasn't meeting her in some capacity and didn't want the same end objective that she did. And Nora, I think you're right. I think she wants the love story. And it seems like from this song, she's saying, Joe didn't. Really, really trivial question to follow up that beautifully eloquent point. Is this ever going to be on streaming? I know we talked about it a little bit last.

You think it will be. Yes. Yes. I think it will be in the same way that hits different as now on streaming. Much to the delight of many people, there are a lot of people who are really in love with that song. Are you still in love with that song?

I am obsessed. I have a summer playlist right now that's just that song and the Duolipa song from the Barbie soundtrack, and I keep listening to it just on repeat. It's like a whole lot. I was going to say hits different could be on the Barbie soundtrack. I think hits different is on the Barbie soundtrack. Well, fine.

Every single album Barbie soundtrack? Maybe. It hits different, certainly belongs on the Barbie soundtrack, although because it's shiny brightness belies and underlying darkness. Well, and also, I used to switch out these cans. Well, there you go. Where does it rank? Is it one of the things we talked about with a lot of the vault track, is that some of them have not stuck in the same way

that the songs from the original albums maybe have, right? And so my question to you is, is this a song that makes it into the regular rotation of your Taylor Swift listening? Or is it a passing fan? It's different, or you're losing me? Oh, no, no, no. It's different.

I think you've answered that question on your music. I'm listening to two songs right now, and one of them is hits different. What's the other one? I've listened. The Dual Eapest. a song from the Barbie soundtrack. Literally, only two songs, period.

Literally, they are on a playlist, and I've listened to those two songs each, probably at least 20 times each in the last 30 hours. Oh, boy. You're down a rabiddle. A song that I have not listened to in the last. Well, actually, that's not true. I did listen to it as I was preparing to do this podcast, but that is not on my summer playlist because the weather references would be inappropriate.

Snow on the beach featuring. more Lana Del Rey. Let's just, let's make sure we talk about this for a little bit. Fine. We have a couple of news items to hit, but I don't know that we got to talk about it like as a song either last week.

My question is just, did we need more Lana Del Rey? And my answer is, it turns out, no, we did not. It's a cute way of acknowledging the fan base and a reminder that, she's always listening and she's always tay lurking and she grabbed Lana and threw her back in the studio and they did it and it does not come out better and that makes me lose a lot of confidence

in my prior assessments of why did she not give artist X, Y or Z, generally female artist X, Y or Z, a verse. Remember, we were all up in arms about why she didn't get a verse, whoever it was. Okay, I was not. I'm very on record as never really having cared about this. except that I love when Phoebe Bridgers did it. And Phoebe got a verse and nothing new. And Phoebe made it better. And Phoebe... Yes.

And I think that Taylor giving Phoebe a verse was a reaction to the fan base saying, why don't female artists ever get a verse? She heard that from Lana. She dragged Lana back in. It just didn't do a whole lot for the song for me. Do you think it detracted? Yeah, I do. I do. I think it sounds forced. It sounds performative and not authentic in hindsight.

Because I actually like snow on the beach. Yeah. So this is why your opinion on this is more valid than mine because I don't, it's not that I dislike snow on the beach, but it just is, it's like, yes, queen, give us nothing. To me, like the song is fine. It doesn't mean anything to me. I think. I think the Lana Del Rey version is fine. Okay. I like, I sort of like the idea of Lana Del Rey, like, hiding behind a fence and like, and like sort of, you know, like weirdly just like trying to find ways to get herself into the song. But like, I don't know, just being like behind a curtain.

What do you think Lana, like, what do you think Lana felt about this? I think Lana felt the same way that Ice Spice felt. I'd be dragging that wagon. Karma is a beauty. the same way that Marin Morris felt the same way that on and on and on, which is let me attach myself to the rocket ship. It's true that she's a friend

and it's probably coming from an authentic place in a number of those cases. But, you know, it's like when Eric Schmidt talked to Cheryl Sandberg before she left Google for Facebook, he was like, when somebody offers you a seat on the rocket ship, you take the seat on the rocket ship. Mm, yes. But, okay.

But do you think that when Taylor goes, hey, Lana, I want to do a version with more of you on it? Do you think Lana Del Rey's reaction to that is like, yeah, damn right, you should have in the first place, or is it just like, L.O.L. Internet's going to internet. That's funny. Sure. Yeah. I think she's like, okay, sure, let's go.

Yeah. Will there be weed there? Yes, let's do it. If Lana Delray's there. Do I have to wear pants? No, let's do it. That's a pretty good Lana. I don't think this matters at all,

but it's just a weird thing. I noticed when I was comparing the original and the Morlana version. There is a heartbeat sound like the one in your losing me that comes through on the bridge of the original version, but not on the Morlana version.

Well, first of all, of all, it's not the first time Jack has recycled some things. It's not the first time Jack has recycled a heartbeat. Yeah, exactly. But why is it gone on the more Lana version? Well, because there's more Lana unless everything else. There's more Lana and less heartbeat. It's covered up.

You can't hear the sound of a beating heart when Lana Del Rey is present. It's 100% more Lana. Can I tell you a funny story, which is that I have a, like, sort of a friend of a but I don't mean that to say that I don't like this person. I really, really like this person. I just don't know him that well. Who thought he really liked Lana Del Rey because the only thing that he,

the only Lana Del Rey song that he'd ever heard was the Summertime Satness Remakes. Oh gosh. And he was like, no, I'm a huge Lana Del Rey fan, like bangers only. And then was like, oh, I should go listen to support Lana Del Rey. It's like, Ken Trails over the country. two beats per minute and it was just like, nope, not into this.

He's like, what happened to Lana Del Rey? It'd be like whoever's in her first album, like the like teeny bop, Britney Spearsie thing. Anyway, look, I think this is a very interesting and cute handout to the fan base more so than it was like a major artistic thing. And that's why she said featuring more Lana Del Rey. I don't think we have to take absolutely everything super seriously. It's kind of the exact...

No, it's funny. Like, that's the best thing about it is. It's funny. It's the exact opposite of you're losing me. She has taken tay lurking. Like, the bit has become... The bit has come to life. Yes.

The bit is in the studio. The bit is calling Lana Delray and being like, you need to get back in here. Because, like, I want to tell people that I'm online. And the bit was Maddie Healy apologizing on stage to Ice Spice, and suddenly she does Carmel. with Ice Spice. My question to you is, was that always planned

or was this an intentional reaction to the uproar around her new relationship? And she put out three things that were direct responses to the internet. One, what the fuck happened in your relationship? You're losing me. Two, where the fuck is Lana Del Rey in that song?

Snow on the beach. Here you go. Three, your new boyfriend is problematic with two T's and... Oh God. He's. He's going to make t-shirts with that. Evidence A is the ice spice stuff. And she comes out and basically says, internet, you're wrong.

And there's no beef. And here we go. And not only am I bringing her up on stage for three nights in the plains of New Jersey, where the Giants and Aaron Rogers and the Jets play, but I'm also going to bring her into the music video. And we're going to harness planets with our Wonder Woman ass glowing ropes and all kinds of good shit.

So I'm sorry, this makes all my friends to the summit. So I'm sorry, this makes the Lana Del Rey thing even funnier because it's just so niche. Like, it just doesn't matter, right? Like, I know people, like, people had a lot to say about how you couldn't hear her on that song, but, like, no one actually cared. Not in the way of, like, what happened with Joe or what's the deal with. Maddie saying rude things. So, I do think. that the karma remix happened after the podcast comments, such as they were.

I think that because in the photos that Taylor and Ice Spice posted from the studio, she was wearing one of the outfits that she wore during that week in late April when she was just like literally everywhere in New York City and getting photographed everywhere. So my understanding based on that is that the timing of actually recording this song lines up in such a way that it would have been post post pod. Ice Space makes, like, I don't think that that has to be horrible and calculating in the negative sense and whatever.

Like, it could have been a genuine way of apologizing. Now, I guess if she's trying to do that so that, like, somehow Ice Spice wouldn't have responded to Maddie and made it work. Like, I don't know. I would at least prefer to think of that if it was a way of mending fences as something more like an apology. And can I do something that's nice with you because that was obviously an uncalled for experience. But Taylor doesn't owe her an apology? No, Taylor doesn't at all. But it would not be...

No, no, no, no, no. I don't think that she owes it. But it would just not be the first time. It would not be the first time that somebody, you know, when someone else in a relationship has screwed up, has gone out of their way to try to fix it. Also, Ice Space makes a hell of a lot of sense for this song. Regardless, I'm saying this is a good career choice,

regardless of the drama. Yeah. No, it's... So, like, Carmar. was probably always going to get a remix and a music video and someone, because it has a brashness that works with hip hop and sort of like a pop hip hop artist can can really, really nicely fit in with. Like something like this, I think was probably always going to happen with karma. Did certain events make it more likely that Ice Spice was going to be the person for that. that, but, like, Ice Space probably would have been the person for that, regardless.

It's a little bit more of, like, a chill flow for her. Like, I love the, I've seen a bunch of TikToks of, like, chill flow. It's, like, the portion where she's just, like, facts. Yeah. And the caption is always, like, Ice Spice is the Lax Pro helping with your presentation. Yes. Just saying, like, one word.

Karma is my Lax pro helping with my presentation. It does work. to me it's emblematic the fact that Taylor Swift is entering a new phase in her career. She is not playing guitar to Tim McGraw in the crowd anymore at the country music awards or whatever. She is now moving into a Madonna-esque phase of thinking about how she doesn't need to stay relevant. But she did not need Ice Spice. it does though kind of again

continue to broaden the audience that we keep thinking as sort of maxing out and there's a difference between meeting someone and thinking it's cool right? Like I love karma

karma is one of my favorite songs off Midnights and it's one of my favorite moments in the tour and the first time I heard the remix I went a little bit like oh this is cool and I like this

and Ice Spice's verse is fun, but like, I like the thing that I love the most. It's really grown on me. Like, it's just fun. It's just fun to be like, facts. Facts. Yeah. Facts. Okay. Well, yeah. My point was just that I think Taylor is very, very intelligent about the things that she does here. It is impossible to break a new artist these days. Facts. Facts. Facts. And, Ice spice may be the one that breaks this year. It has been a long time since we've broken an artist globally. Even Bad Bunny is not selling a bunch of tickets in London or in Europe, right? So Ice Spice may be that sort of breakout star. And I just think it's just once again, she's the best CMO. She's the best

marketer in music. And so to sort of get that association, whether she used the Maddie drama to actually bring it to fruition or not, but when you bring her out in New York City, it's quite a statement. was. They looked great together. They sounded great together. And I have a sense she knew that was going to happen. Yeah, she's got good taste. Also, like, and I don't want to give too much, like, we've given a lot of oxygen and airtime to that whole situation. And it's obviously relevant. And I appreciated people sort of chiming in and sharing their thoughts about the conversation that we had and just the maddy stuff in general. It's also like one thing that's probably worth pointing out, a lot of people just don't

know who he is, you know? Like a lot of people who know who Taylor Swift is just like aren't tuned into any of this. And so their relationship with the karma remix and Ice Spice being on the karma remix is going to be pure. And I will be honest, I envy them. and I just think that's worth noting. Yeah. There are some things you can't unsee, Nora.

All right. Two little news items before we wrap up. Okay. There is always news. I texted you about this earlier today and you were like, what are you talking about? But I observed with notation,

a tweet posted by Taylor Swift, as she usually does once she leaves a city. Thanking the crowd, you know, saying, oh, I had such a great time and wherever the last stop in the air is tore a while. but I did notice that in her thank you Detroit tweet, it begins with, ah, Detroit, that was so much fun.

But the ah, it does not have a normal number of ages. It has five Hs. Curious, but it does not stop there. Then she continues. First time I performed at Ford Field was singing the anthem there in 2006. And I remember thinking,

it felt impossible for a place to be that big. I was so insanely nervous, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I remember thinking, an innocuous phrase. Are we out of the woods? Or reference to out of the woods, a song from Taylor Swift's fifth album, 1989. Well, first of all,

I just want to say that I appreciate when you go bad shit crazy on me, and here we are. I don't know what you're talking about. The second thing that I want to say is she did, start to hint at, you know, it was enchanting, blah, blah, blah. So she, I think maybe you're counting the H's is the part that I'm having the crazy town reaction

to. I'm not at all averse to. Three O's and so, speak now, third album. I was so insanely nervous. Three O's. Why do you do this to me? I don't want to think about this. Look, here's, she is definitely going to come out with 1989. We know this.

We saw it in the video. The Ice Spice video itself. She's telling us that this is coming. She's going to be cute and throw out the little Easter eggs here and there. We're going to overread 50,000 of them. Just like we overread the t-shirts that she walks out on stage in. Okay, that was weird. I'm sorry, that was weird.

That was a statistically significant situation. The hell it was. And if we ever, which is probably. not going to happen after the things that I've said. Get Taylor Swift on this podcast. I will be asking her about that. That's fine. Here's what I will say.

This is the fun part. It's always the fun part when we know something's coming. We know something is coming. It's coming. And so what I counsel both of us to do is to not over-rotate on all the stuff. Sometimes it's sitting right in front of the, us. On the golden statue, it says 1989 in the Ice Spice video. And I remember thinking is, I bet it's a clue. Let's see what she says coming out of Pittsburgh. Let's see what she does coming out of Minneapolis.

But I'm guessing we're going to start to see these little hints here and there because we've known forever that 1989 is in the can. We did not understand why it hasn't come out. I think just to wrap up the entire thread of this conversation, I do think that you're losing me holds a number of clues not literal, but just what it actually means. I think it holds a bunch of clues as to why she's made some of the career and music release choices and touring timing choices that she has.

She didn't put out all the international dates right away. One could imagine she turned to her manager in that moment and said, I don't know where I'm going to be emotionally after these 53 stadium dates. I'm going through it right now. Physically. Don't book me around the world just yet, please. Right? we're starting to see the South America dates come out.

You can imagine there's some Europe that's coming soon, right? So I just think, yeah, there we go. Let's enjoy the ride. Let's enjoy the Easter eggs. Let's make sure we don't go too deep down the conspiracy hole because that's when sometimes we start to claim ownership of the life of a human being instead of just enjoying her little art of her performative art

that she does through these signals that she sends. I will be over-rotating, but I think that's good advice. I just don't plan on taking it. This entire Taylor of Summer divergence in our podcast, our otherwise high integrity voice of reason podcast, is over rotation. But I'm here for it because it's the summer of Taylor, Nora. Okay, last thing.

You did mention that she has added additional international shows since we last talked. There have been more Latin America shows added. I think she's up to 12 now, running from the end of August through the end of November. How long is this tour going to go for? I think she is going to play Europe for sure, but I think that she has the luxury

of waiting and seeing because she is a non-scalable resource, and she is also in such high demand that there are probably, I don't know, 100 times as many markets that could host a Taylor Swift show

as she is going to be able to play. And so in the same way that she interestingly did not go to D.C., she interestingly did not go to Miami. She may miss a city in Europe

or a city in Asia because the availability of the stadium that she wants to go play just doesn't work out. It's okay. She can route to somewhere else. I think she is...

Speaking, just, I'm interrupting you briefly. That's great. She skipped Miami, but Miami did not win the NBA finals, which I believe does break the Taylor Swift era's tour curse. Speaking of over rotating.

Congratulations to the nugs. Yeah, that's right. So that that curse is broken. But I think that this tour is an exercise in self-care. She's making sure that she can handle it. She's making sure that she can bring it every night. She's making sure that after

16 rain shows, she still wants to get out there and go do it because it matters to her. And she's making sure that emotionally and physically, in the moment that she is in her life, that she can take a pause if she needs to. And that's it. That's what we're seeing.

And that's why we're not going to get all the tour dates until she's good and ready to say, yes, I can do it. Love it. All right. Nathan, a delayed as always. we'll be back next week. I can't wait. Bring the drama tea.

Did you just do a British accent? I don't know. That was like a little bit of your British accent that snuck in there. All right. A little treat for those who've waited to the 44 minute mark. This has been every single album. Thank you so much for listening. And as always, thank you to our fabulous producer,

Kaya McMullen, for all of her wonderful work bringing this to life.