Every Single Album - ‘Radical Optimism’ | Every Single Album: Dua Lipa

Episode Date: May 9, 2024

Nora and Nathan are here to review and discuss Dua Lipa’s third album, 'Radical Optimism.' They start by talking about their journey with Dua Lipa (2:13). Then they get into the album, starting with what they think the biggest hit is (18:52). During their breakdown of the album, they talk about the best song, what they are cutting, and much more. They wrap up by discussing the collaborators on this album and what the next album appetizer is (1:00:41). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What is going on with Kate Middleton? Which cult is popping off right now? What the hell is a trad wife? And why are we so obsessed with them? I'm Jody Walker. And I'm Chelsea Stark Jones. And we're obsessed. Obsessed with all the pop culture happenings,

filling our group chats and 4 You pages. And we want to talk about them with you. Our new show, We're Obsessed, is for all the things we're loving, buying, watching, listening to, and spiraling over right now. Follow the ringer-dish feed on Spotify to listen to We're Obsessed every Friday. Welcome to every single album. I'm Nora Prenziotti.

And as always, I am joined by Nathan Hubbard. Nathan, happy Met Gala Monday as we're recording this. How are you doing? Well, I'm not at the Met Gala, so it could be better, Nora. Me neither. I'm really close to the Met Gala. I live nearby, but I'm not there. But there's nowhere I'd rather be than recording a podcast with you.

Dua is there? Dooley, but my girl, my Vakansa queen. She is there. She's there with Mark Jacobs. She's wearing like a big. Raven on her shoulder. Three dead raven on her shoulder. Stop it.

She's wearing a big like. A murder of crows on her right shoulder. A murder of crows is good. It's a very feathery black dress. She looks great. She always looks great. Love dulypa. And that is who we are going to talk about on this episode today because last Friday

a dualipa dropped radical optimism, her third album. And Nathan and I, as his tradition, have not discussed anything off of this album, really, except for a stuff about the singles before the rest of it came out, I suppose. And we're going to get to it now. But I think I have oriented you a little bit around my general dulypa thoughts and feelings, which include that she's very important to me. and I think she's cool. But can you do the same for me, Nathan?

Can you tell us your dual leap a journey? I don't have much of a dual leap a journey other than... That's so weird. Really not having her in my life in a meaningful way until future nostalgia. And it being... Like, I think of folklore

as being the preeminent album of the pandemic. But I think of future nostalgia as being, in a lot of ways, most radically optimistic bit of music that came out during that time. And it sort of, it just was so fun. It was so fun. There was such great attitude. There was so much personality in dance pop and disco. It sort of reminded me, and I think everybody, which is why so many people gravitated to it, that life was going to be fun again and that people would come together and people would dance. And that's what she sort of represented for me. Or even dance when we couldn't really come together.

I mean, I remember dancing to future nostalgia in my room, in my tiny apartment in Boston, just like straight up by myself. And I had a roommate, but I didn't tell her. Like, I was just in my room alone, just bopping. And it was like so desperately needed. And particularly because that album came out so early during COVID. Yeah. Like those songs were not designed for the pandemic, obviously. And she went through a process of figuring out if it was worth holding it or if it was time to just release the stuff.

And then it got leaked. And she's on Instagram crying and saying, look, like, this isn't how I wanted to do this. And it's such a weird time. And it was still in that moment when a lot of people, myself included, and I think Doolipa has said herself included, thought that the. world might get back to quote unquote normal in like a matter of weeks. So there was a real like, oh, if we hang on for a little bit, then maybe things will revert

and we can put it out into that climate. But it really- If your walls could talk, they would see you. If my walls could talk, they would have been like Nora loved future nostalgia. Can I tell you one other thing about my duo journey? Yes, please. Always. It was only until recently when I realized or when I came to understand that,

Duolipa is her real name. I was absolutely sure that was a stage name. You thought that it was a nom de pen? I assumed it was Lady Gaga and her name was Stephanie. I mean, it's like, it's so, look, she's Albanian. It's the best name. No, it's such a good name, but you're speaking to something that I think is like maybe going to be part of this conversation, which is like, Dula Lepa is this very like slippery figure, right?

Like she doesn't tell you a lot about herself and her songs. Like there's a, there's a viral tweet about like all of her songs are, are about how she's going to dance and she's going to dance. And then there's a man who wants her, but then he's going to mess up, but then she's just going to dance again. So everything's fine.

Like Doolipa's identity is, is like pop star. She's like a, she's, you know, if the idol had been better. the central character would have been like Duolipa, right? Like she's done this since she was 15 years old, but there's so much of her that just feels like kind of like a prototype sometimes rather than an actual person. But then when you actually get a sense of her personality, she's so cool that she becomes very real.

But I think the interplay between like Duolipa as idea and stand in for the perfect person. to sing hooks versus whatever is underneath that is like really factoring into a lot of what's going on here. You know, I, there's this dichotomy from me between her music and actually the way that she presents herself in interviews. Like, she talks in a really interesting way about Faith with Stephen Colbert. And even on the Seth Myers day drinking thing, her interview with Zane Lowe, this go round, she has a ton of depth to her

that sometimes I think is betrayed a little bit by the genre of music that she's in. And yeah, I think the core issue of this record is that the whole press behind it was this is duo pouring her heart into these songs, rewriting them and rewriting them in ways that she didn't before and revisiting them over a longer period of time and getting emotional in the way that she put all of this down.

But at the end of the day, it's still dance pop. And if I handed you just the lyric sheets, I think, absent the music, you'd go, okay, I can see how she's speaking from the heart here. But it is different than your traditional lyric writing, heart-pouring pop star, Taylor or otherwise, isn't it? And I feel like she's in a little bit, she gets put, and on this album in particular,

the press and the online chatter has put her in a little bit of a box that doesn't totally let her be a woman of depth through her music. Well, okay, we should talk about, I'm interested in talking about how much... Fakan's a article writer. She wants to go there and is being boxed out of that. But let's talk about how she got in the box, by which I mean, let's talk about the album promo and how this has been framed both by the press and people who have heard it and also by duly for herself. Because this has been, I would call this album release confounding.

Yeah. Like you said, there was some framing of, you know, it's called radical optimism because she's, she's, she's, she's, really diving into the idea of what it means to, she talked a lot about like staying calm in a storm. She's in the pool with a shark or whatever that picture. Wacky album cover. She's like chilling out in the ocean, but there's some great white shark going.

She also talked a lot. She said this in particular, I think in a Rolling Stone profile, about the album being inspired by like primal scream, massive attack and UK rave culture. Right. There was also some talk of like, you know, more Britpop references. Yeah.

A lot of 90s. And I don't get zero Britpop. I get way more 80s than 90s on this. Yeah. Yeah. There's some flash dance on this. There's some like Donna Summer on this. Yeah.

I reached for it. I couldn't find it. which made it weirdly set up. So, right. So it comes out on a lot of the coverage is just like, what the hell did she mean by that? Right. It's not, you know, I would say this album has not gotten the glowing reviews that future nostalgia did, certainly. But more than even like this isn't good.

It's just like what's going on here? There's a, from the pitchfork review, which wasn't great, but it was, was, was, mixed, and it was better than torture poets, said, but listening to radical optimism with Brit Pop in mind might recall the arrested development bit in which Michael Bluth is forced to ask, has anyone in this family ever seen a chicken? Yeah. Which, like, there is, like, I want to acknowledge before I talk about

what I really like on this album, because I personally enjoyed it a lot, I want to just acknowledge that it is unclear what the aims of radical optimism are, and hopefully we can get to the bottom of some of that as we go through this conversation because But isn't that what's great about Duelipa? We don't have to overthink it. I mean, because we are who we are and we are the people on this podcast, we'll find a way to overthink it. Of course.

It's what we do for a hour and a half. No, that is, that is, that has, that idea has come up to me a lot of like, maybe that's, maybe that's the key. It's just like, don't worry about it. about it. Get in the car and drive. Go get a drink and sit on a patio. Like, we're all going to be okay. Yeah. I, I, on the other hand, in those extended interviews with her, she's absolutely saying that this was a cathartic writing process for her. I mean, she talks about it the way that Taylor talks about tortured poets and that she had to write it to get through. Now, one thing to note is, I mean,

that some of these songs were written two years ago. And so she's a little bit through a phase versus where we're seeing her now in a different place than she was when she wrote this record. But I do think, like, the genre itself of dance pop can be only so deep lyrically when what you're trying to do is make ass shake. You just can't focus so much on narrative.

development. But do you think that the focus here is necessarily on narrative development? Not at all, but I think she wanted to communicate more about herself. She acknowledged that she had really covered up and shied away from that. And yeah, I mean, there's nothing on future nostalgia that teaches you anything about Dulepa other than she loves to have a good time. And if you just step away from the music and the production of this record, and just like go to the interwebs and read the lyrics,

I actually think you might learn a little bit about Duelipa. You would learn that she comes and she goes. Yeah. Catch me on the way, Udini? But she still can barely write a song without the word dance in it. I mean, most of the songs on this record have the word dance on it. My queen. I've never give it up Dua Lepa.

I would love for you to, to, to take me on as much of that journey as you can. I'm not sure how much I get on this album of Duelipa would like to bear her soul. That's not necessarily what I want from her. I come at it actually weirdly in a slightly different way where, you know, I'm not the only person to sort of think about this hypothetical. I've seen a couple of people bring it up. I listened to this album and went,

that's a really fun EP. Because it's only 36 minutes? Yeah. And even in the 36 minutes, I'm not sure that it has, you know, future nostalgia had singles and it had a hits. But future nostalgia for my money is a deep album. There are very few skips on future nostalgia,

except for Boys Will Be Boys, which was a weird choice. But to me, that is an album that holds up as a, as a cohesive whole. Right. And even towards the end of the 36 minutes here, I think there's some stuff that we could have done without.

Oh, we're going to have a conversation. My question being like, you know, where are we right now if Duelipa this summer comes with most of these songs and then maybe somehow manages to get her hands on, I don't know, say espresso by Sabrina Carpenter. Can't see that. and has something that is like massive and huge in that way. Well, that's what I think is restrictive about the format that she's in.

Because you really, just baseball analogy, cliche, you're swinging for the fences. And you either have a hit and it's a total earworm and it's out. Or you get what I think this record is, which is I enjoy it. It's really good. I think it's better than a lot of critics received it. I think it's way better than a lot of the online audience has received it. But this album has three singles out in the world before it's released.

There are only 36 minutes worth of songs on this album. And these are not hits. These are not blowing it out of the water. You know, she got to number two in the UK and number 11 in the U.S. with Houdini. Great. That's a serviceable. Houdini has stuck around. I will say.

But it's not even remotely close to levitating. It's not remotely close to Don't Start Now. And those songs were just better songs. And for all of the dialogue, I think it is fair to just say, hey, could it just be that she just didn't make as good an album as the last time? And I don't know that it's that simple because one of the things I want to talk to you about today, as the person who wrote an article that talked about her being the vacation queen

has the brand around Dua and the conversation around her somewhat usurped fans' ability to take the music seriously because we sort of have pigeonholed her and we pat her on the head like a little kid and go, oh, Dua, you just love to dance, party girl. And so it's hard for us to receive

you know, what is threading a needle a little bit, which is here's some dance pop that go make your ass shake, but where I'm also telling you about a really difficult breakup that I went through and the emotions that I processed to do it. Like, do we have space as fans for that? Or have we been so shaded by the conversation around party duo that there's no space for her to be that? Yeah, we'll have to go there

because that's really interesting to me from the perspective of, I almost hear that conversation in the inverse where to some degree to me it's such a relief that she just doesn't narrativeize that I want it to work. I'm I am really bought in on that premise for her of I'm just I'm going to make these these summer hits and I'm going to get people in the club and I'm going to get people up on their feet. And to me, her personality is gripping enough that I think she can like, she can fill, I come and I go. Like she can fill these, the lyrics that make up some of these songs with enough like winkiness and cheekiness where it remains like human and charming and I'm, I'm into it and it doesn't feel cranked out by a machine that's just sort of doing hooks.

Okay. And then you don't get caught up in, like, I love to Easter egg for, you know, certain people as much as the next gal. I can't do Easter eggs with everyone, Nathan. I can't do it. I'm so bad for this to work because we can't go through the looking glass with every single album. No, no. But this record is not sassy. Like, there's no.

There's so much like Spice Girls. attitude and sass right out of the gate on future nostalgia. And this one doesn't totally happen. You don't think French exit is sassy? It is a little bit, but I don't, we're going to talk about French exit. When we get there. We should get there. But that was the thing for me was that there was just a little bit less, I think she tried to put more her and less like sugar boo.

And I don't know. I don't know if everybody wants. I think some people want sugar boo. Yeah. Totally. All right. Well, let's, let's, we talked a little bit about, you know, I think some of this conversation has alluded to the biggest hit conversation, which is, look, it's, it's going to be Houdini. I think that's, that's, for sure.

That's pretty clear. The question that I want to ask you is, do you think, do you think. think the fact that, and you can tell me if you disagree with my premise here, dance the night is going to be the defining song of this Duelipa era, the Barbie song that I love so much. Do you think that helps or hurts this enterprise? Because on the one hand, at least there's a song that was genuinely huge. Yeah. On the other hand, it's not on this album. Right. Well, I think you're correct on all accounts, and I think they kept trying. And that was part of the weird setup of this record. There's only 11 songs. By the time it comes out, we've heard three, including one that is bigger than the three singles. And I mean, I just have to say, I think releasing illusion was a little desperate. And I think there's a reason that she performed happy for you on SNL, because I think they actually are not giving up on this, and the label cares about. about it and she cares about it.

And I'm happy for you was objectively a strange choice to put on Saturday Night Live. Yeah. Given that given all the other options, I'm thrilled she did it because as I will tell you in a minute, I actually love the song. But I think releasing that third single was just like a Hail Mary to try to get something to chart or generate some enthusiasm. and it just sort of, they kind of showed the work a little bit too much. Like they kind of almost published the org chart of the record label a little bit or the concern of the record label by releasing that third one when the first two hadn't gone. And so, yes, I mean, I, they, there's no other way to say it than there aren't hits on this album.

There just aren't. There's really cool sounds. I like these songs more than I thought having read the chatter online and the stuff leading up to it. But there are not hits as traditionally defined. I don't think it's going to be a problem for her career at all. I don't think that is the point necessarily. But again, in dance pop, you either have Dance the Night or, you know, levitating or whatever. Or you don't. And if you don't, then this record becomes.

kind of fun background noise. Maybe there's going to be some interesting remixes that you hear in the club. But that's what this is going to be relegated to without a hit. Which to your point about having to go in a box when the bop box

it does put the thrust of the conversation so squarely around like chart performance and numbers. and obviously that's, you know, that's been a part of all of these album releases and it's always a part of the conversation. And some of it's dumb as hell, because in some cases it's super rigged. Right. But it's rigged by the vinyl.

But in this case, by the way, there are duistans online claiming that these numbers, the streaming numbers are rigged and that Spotify froze the doist stats. Like they themselves are seeing that it's not streaming the way they would have thought. Right. Which, again, it's not, it's not streaming the way that they would have thought. I doubt that Doolipa and her people are thrilled with those results so far. But it is also, and look, like it's going to be compared to future nostalgia inevitably. And it's obviously not. That's a tough bar.

Tough comp. There are artists that we talk about glowingly on this podcast who would be totally happy with. Totally psyched with these numbers. But when you're in that box and, particularly when you're where Duelipa is right now, which is in some ways like a little bit, you know, things really have accelerated for her in a way where since she's taken time

between albums, it feels like she's been with us for a long time. But like to be in a third album cycle and the follow up to the first record that really, really hit, I mean, Duelipa closed the Grammys this year. Duelipa was the chair of the Met Gala last year.

Duelipa was in two movies. She's got a headlining set at Glass. Astonbury. Like, she's operating in this space where it's hard to give an album flowers for just having a bunch of songs that are cool and well crafted and interesting and fun and that I want to play all summer. But we're going to try to do that on this podcast a little bit because I think that's what she ended up with. Well, look, just be, I want to make one point on Houdini about the song and then a bigger point about her business. I think Houdini's great. It is fun.

It start, like the start, it literally feels like that song she works hard for the money. And it does have some, like, maniac from FlashDance in it. So that's where I sort of pulled some of the 80s vibe for me, for sure. I think it's, it feels, speaking of being in a box, it feels to me like the melody's just stuck in a little bit of a box. It doesn't have this absolute moment, even though I love the sort of industrial dance pop of the whole thing. It just misses that like, holy shit moment that just ropes you in. But I want to say something about her business that I think has been alluded to a little bit.

She broke up with her manager and it was an ugly breakup. This is in 2022. Yeah, there are always... Post-Future nostalgia. But it took a long time to sort of... extricate themselves from the relationship. And her dad took over as her manager. There is conversation that she maybe will return and be managed by somebody else.

But I can't help but wonder if the change and, you know, the inconsistency in her representation on the business side. The manager is sort of the CEO of the artist's business. And that said, they also can be a really valuable and important set of A&R ears, which is sort of record industry term for like helping the artist hear the truth about whether these songs are going to work or whether they're not going to work. And the label's job is to do that a little bit. But when you're as big as do it is, like, the music business has changed so much over the last, since she put out future nostalgia that, you know, artists are, labels are doing less and less. artists deals have gotten better and better and it's become so much more competitive and thinner margins and all this.

The point is I don't think the labels are doing as much of the hard work of telling an artist, hey, I don't hear the hit. And you wonder if having your dad as manager also makes it hard for your dad to say, my dear daughter, who I love so much, I'm not hearing a hit. Or even if dad, who was a artist in his own right,

you know, in a band, like is good enough to make that judgment. And I just wonder if through the course of this, maybe different representation could have changed the outcome. I still think this is a really good record. But to your point, like, the biggest song from this era is not on it. Has the dad's manager thing ever worked? I mean, it worked for Beyonce to, you know, obviously to great success for as long as it worked, but she still fired him. Yeah.

Like, look, there's, it doesn't ever go super. well. I mean, it, and that's in sports. It's in acting. It's in music in particular, right? It's just, I mean, it, it was literally parodied in spinal tap, right? Janine, the wife of David St. Hubbins or whatever. It just, it never works well. And because you need somebody who can speak the truth and then not have to come home and, you know, run a, run a family or lie next to you or whatever. is, right? It just, you need a little bit of distance there. So I don't know that it's pure speculation. I do know that the management thing wasn't the prettiest, the split up was, and there's always multiple sides to every story. But I do know that an artist, the most valuable and important person in an artist's career today versus even maybe five years ago is a really strong manager. And it's, it's messy in due his case to say the least through the course of this era. Well, it's been, and since

Her dad took over. Yeah, no, but it's, but, you know, there's a history. And I will say, to some degree, we're speculating in, in my saying, right, that like, the history of artists having their family members manage their careers is not great. It's not great in sports, as you said, it's not great in a lot of avenues. There's also, there has been some, some weirdness that we know about, right? Like, there was a little kerfuffle about the dad. sending emails, maybe sort of offering her up to perform at the World Cup in Qatar, which was, you know,

and Cina's in conflict with the stances that she's made really clear on LGBTQ rights. There's just the fact that she's done a lot. And that might come from her. I mean, the Argyle movie was a flop, but I think it was great that she, you know, popped up on the wave with John Cena and Barbie. like that was clearly a win. Although in that case, it was a little bit more connected with the music.

So we are quite obviously speculating. I will say, I think there are some data points to say that it has continued to be a little messy and a little, you know, erratic since the change. She did that weird song with Calvin Harris and Young Thug. Like, it's not ideal. And I think it's very fair. even while so many things are still going really well, right?

Like she had that great slot at the Grammys. She's got Glastonbury. She just did double hosting Saturday Night Live last night. Double hosting SNL. And she was really good. Yeah. But so there's not zero signs that there's some funkiness with that. She's at a level, though, where like if you call Saturday Live and say,

do I'd like to do both, what's Lauren going to say? No. no, he's going to say yes. So it's about the quality of those things. And to your point, we don't see Miley Cyrus that often. They make purposeful choices about when to bring out Miley because it's a little bit like Madonna. She doesn't show up everywhere. They're trying to keep her as an icon. And when she shows up, it really matters. She's not going to go do the kids' choice awards every year at this point. Like it's going to be few and far between. So that when she shows up, you pay attention, you think it matters.

Do it's been pretty present. She's worked hard. And a lot of those, I think, were good choices. Like, Glastonbury, I think this album is going to sound great in her set. And that's an awesome thing to do. And obviously, you know, that's something that she grew up going to, and that's going to be just the coolest thing. Again, I thought she was really good on SNL.

She, you know, she's in that Las Culturesda's universe, too. So it's fun to see her work with Bowen-Yang and doing it. all of that stuff. And Barbie was obviously a great move. So a lot of... She's doing the work. She's doing the work and it's great that she's around. It's just, you know, to be... Watch this space, as they say.

Let's talk about the best song. What do you think? I think we're going to argue here. Okay. So I do think there's a conversation here about Houdini. Because, you know, as we have these conversations, about they're not really being obvious hits.

Houdini to me is a hit. I will remember Houdini as being a song that people really liked and that I really like and being, you know, catchy enough to have that sort of like eternal quality to it. I'm into Houdini. I want to go on the record as a Houdini stand. But what I really want to talk to you about are two songs. And those songs are back to back. They are the fifth and six songs on this record.

And they are what you doing and they are French exit. Both of which I'm so obsessed with. Are we going to argue? Yes. We're going to argue about one of them because I'm cutting this shit out of what you're doing. Dude, no. Okay.

So there's an operative question here. Do you remember the Tame and Paula song from the Barbie movie? Okay. It's like when they go to the real world. Okay. Do you remember it? Yes. Do you like that song?

I mean, it's a Kevin Parker song. Yes. Well, so is what you doing. I know that. I know that. I mean, look, it sounds, the start to me, here's what my problem is with what you're doing. It sounds, the beginning sounds like Katie Perry's chain to the rhythm.

That's a great song. It's a great song, but I couldn't get it out of my head. And there was something, what you're doing? The title just, I don't know. It bummed me out. And then she revisits that. She asks what you're doing in illusion two songs later. I don't know.

So I got a little bit, I don't know. Maybe that isn't the one I definitely would cut, but it's one of the two that I would cut. If you cut what you're doing, I'm mad at you. Well, French accent, I'm not cutting. Okay, good. But let's, hold on. Let's talk about what you doing for just one more second.

I do think, I like the, I think there's like there's an idea in this sort of, you know, psychedelic thing that comes through in the production that, first of all, it's new. It's an evolution of what she's doing. And that's fun. Yeah. It sounds a little different. Yeah. I really like the couplets of, but if control is my religion. Whose religion is control? Maybe do Elipas. I kind of buy that. That feels very real to me. me in the sense that like she is this person who we know of of not giving very much and where does that come from probably a desire to like keep things hers and keep things managed and keep things under control. And then I don't know. We're talking about future install just so much that there's something about hearing her say 2020 vision that feels somehow like a recall to that moment in a way that I think is cool. But this this song's

me, I just, I think it builds. I think it's really, I just really like listening to it. I really want to listen to it in the car. I really want to play it like on a nice summer night. If I can have dinner outside, um, which I feel like is a lot of, of what this album is for in its best moments. So I am, I am into this song. There's just not a lot. Lyrically to jump on here. I mean, the whole thing is, I'm afraid you're going to change me. I, you, I'm thinking. I'm thinking. I'm, a lot about you. That's it. I mean, there's a lot of repetition. There's a lot of, yeah, this is basically telling us the do as a control freak. Okay. I'm happy to know that, I guess. What is it about I come and I go, tell me all the ways you need me. I'm not here for long.

Catch me or I go Houdini. That is more lyrically, I like the song better. Lyrical death to you. I like the music better. But it's true. I just feel like you're telling me that you came to do a leap up for like Taylor Swift Quill Ben. No, but that's how this thing was set up. I don't know that I got quite as much of that in the setup for what it's worth. I got a lot about the sonic influences, but less about like duolip is going to bear her soul.

Oh, she, you, you missed it. She is, she has been out there saying like, this is the first time that I've really talked about myself. These songs changed me as a person, the process and the songs themselves. Okay, but then you read between the lines and, like, there were some of the profiles that would then talk about, like they would mention,

they would at least allude to happy for you, right? And be like, there's a song about being happy for your ex-boyfriend. I'm just like, I'm sorry, but we're still doing, yes, girl, give us nothing. Come on, man. To me, that's aspirational. To me, that is complimentary, not derogatory. But I just, I reject the idea that radical optimism was set up as being a true bearing of the soul of Duelipa.

Saturn return. We have done a lot of Saturn return records. And this is hers. Dulepa's Saturn. Did not return? It has been in coppery and it's still there. Fine. Well, let's go to French exit then.

Great song. Ten out of ten song. I think it's a great song. I mean, even the realest shit, though, that she does on this record, I think. I mean, I don't know. There's a few songs later on

where I think she does even more real shit, but where she's like, there's a very, like, in the heading in the pre-course, there's a very poignant moment where she's like, I can't give you what you want. And then the next lyric is, everybody's still dancing. Like, she has to, like, go back and hide in the woods of dancing.

She's like, wait, I just said something real. Now I've got to go talk about dancing again. It's too much for me. But, like, she just needs dancing as a metaphor to hide behind. How dare people say that her brand is not clear? I'm sorry. It's clear as day. What is the difference between a French exit and an Irish goodbye?

a French exit is cooler and more chic and therefore more appropriate for Duelipa to perform. But is it all the same thing? Like, is it just made up? Or is, I mean, the French exit, I think, was maybe, you know, the retreat. It sort of was a pejorative phrase about the French surrendering to Germany in World War II maybe. But what is the Irish? But like, can we just make shit up?

No, it's the same. I'm Googling. I'm Googling. Um, is like, a French leave, a French leave. sometimes French exit, Irish goodbye or Irish exit is a departure from a location or event without informing others or without seeking approval. But why can't we use other countries?

And like, why not the fucking Costa Rican departure? The Pauau, New Guinea, peace out. Like, what is this thing? That was really good. Can you keep going? Can you do more? I mean, the Bahamanian bubai. Like, what are we doing? I need to understand it as a difference.

But I like this song. The Irish goodbye being the, I think, most frequently used version of this colloquialism, isn't she already sort of switching it up by calling it French exit? I don't know. I also wonder if, I think something that we would be remiss not to mention is that this is a fairly European-sounding collection of songs. It's possible that in Britain, French exit is more popular than Irish goodbye as a saying. well and then there's that little sort of background uh

uh filet al angeles right which is the same thing but in French Nora well right in France this song is great there is still like

does it make you laugh when she says but I gotta hit the road like I hate that I'm leaving you stranded but I got to hit the road that there's like a stiffness in that that is like, I'm trying to tell you that I'm leaving, but I just, it's

really hard for me to say that directly. So there's a bunch of places in this record where she says stuff like that, where she's like, I got to hit the road or, you know, she just makes, she can't not say it like it's fun. Yes, that's the magic of it. That's the magic of Duelipa is that,

yes, of course there is an inherent lack of depth to always being okay about everything. But she pulls it off in a way that I do think, like, puts a true release of something into the music. And it's, it makes you feel like it's really true other than it being, you know, verging on a little bit of vapid. So to me, like, to me, she's in on the joke. Okay. I don't know.

Because in anything for love, she's, you know, she's like, that means we got to part ways. I gotta hit the, like, maybe it's the use of gotta. Or it hurts me to cut it off. Like, they're just a little stiffness to that stuff. And she does, like, I think she's probably a professional goaster. It's just too much for her to break up. Yeah, well, she definitely, look, she's got to go dance. She has to go dance.

It's imperative that she go dance, Nathan. See, there's a reduction in the way that you're talking about this that I think unfairly boxes. and my girl duo. But what I'm realizing in this. No, there's not. What I'm trying to say to you is that it is, this is not a reductive idea. This is like,

I want so badly for this to be a very valid lane and something that, that one can infuse with depth. But what I will concede to you is that it does, it necessitates like chart performance and bangers in a way that that is the box to me. But I don't, I think the, to me, her personality.

which I get so much on this song. And it makes me laugh in a way where, again, I just, I feel like she is in on the bit, which makes it feel like she has a little bit more to say than, you know, if you just do a pure text reading. I got to do the Laotian later. I am realizing in this conversation that we're going to have the same sort of end spot from this album

that we did with Olivia's album because I think I like the stuff that's later on just on the Olivia stuff I really love the ballads and you were here and only here for the rockers yes

I really like the stuff at the end of this album the more that I listen through I like anything for love a lot I wish it was longer I kind of like Maria and I really really, really like Happy for you. I think that's the best song on the album.

And I think it's the one where she's the most direct. I think I learned the most about her. I think it's sort of hard to say what she says. I think she's introspective. There's more space in this mix. It's not quite as busy as the instrumentation and production of some of the other songs across this album. I'm surprised they did this on SNL,

and I still am not sure how I feel about... I mean, somebody wrote a funny-ass tweet that was like, at the end of this on the SNL thing, there's just smoke. It looks like the gates of heaven, and she's whipping her hair around, and somebody was like, this is what gay people see when they enter the pearly gates.

This image right here. It was perfect, you know? Me too. I want to go. I do, too. She looked incredible. but it was an interesting choice to do that song given, you know, what we know about the three other singles. She had some of the things she could do. And I just wonder if they were trying, this is different than any other song on the record.

I think it could be the next album appetizer, too, by the way, although I'm not sure we ever want Duo, to your point, moving away from the dance stuff. But I really enjoy happy for you. I love how she sings on that song. Like when she says the line, she's really pretty. She's really pretty. I think she's a model. She, you hear, you hear her accent. And it just, again, she's, she's cool.

Like, I clearly have a big, massive girl crush on Duelipa. And it really comes through when she has moments like that. I do think she is. developing this tendency to have like one kind of corny song per album and to me this is that song. Really? Not anything for love? Anything for love. I like the idea of her doing like the ballad fake out thing.

I think that's very funny because it's Duelipa. Yeah. It's like the what's up with that sketch from SNL where you just know at some point the dance music's coming back. He's like, ooh. Yeah, no, I think that's really fun. Dancing and prance in, and rants in? That is a Duelapah song. Yeah, exactly.

I mean, it sounds like an Adele song at the beginning, anything for love. Yeah. And again, I like her singing on it. I do like, look, there's all that, and we'll get to this when we talk about collaborators, but she talked about the making of this album being sort of like, you know, she had a little band, and she thought of it that way. And you have all these songs. Right.

Especially in the little spoken intro. Yeah. Anything for love with all that chatter? It sounds fun. It's fun. No, they sound... Good vibes. When once ever has Duelipa not sounded like she's having a good time?

Yeah, fair enough. But I understood the vibe of the studio. I got more into the album at the intro and outro of anything for love. So it's like, oh, she really built this little family in the studio and, yeah, good times, do it. Yeah, I don't, look, I don't mind, I don't mind the song. I do think that it ends right about when it really gets going. That's what I thought to.

It's too short, damn it. Right. And I, again, I like the idea of her doing the sort of, oh, I tricked you into thinking that I was going to do a ballad. Right. But it probably needed a little bit more on the second half to make that really get there. And this is one where, and maybe I'm sort of conceding a point to here is that. that, you know, when she's saying, remember when we used to do anything for love, I'm not sure I do.

Like, I'm not sure I know that person. I'm not sure that I've ever heard those stories or, or that idea. Maybe I should have more willingness to sort of, to, to be interested in a new perspective from her. Do you hear what she's saying on that song? Like, she's sort of declaring some boundaries. and what, like, what she expects. Like, she wants somebody who'll meet me equally,

won't feel like it's too much. Like, there's a lot in between the lines there about what I think ultimately was the downfall of her relationship with Anwar Hadid. And you don't get the same message from I come and I go, prove you got the right to please me. Everybody knows, catch me where I go, Houdini. I do not.

I do. If you're good enough, you'll find a way. Yeah, I mean, I'm not interested in a love that gives up so easily. I want a love that's set on keeping me when it hurts. We don't even think to cut it off. So that's the opposite of Houdini. I think there's a parallel. She probably is a professional.

She's a professional goaster when dating. That's absolutely for sure. But I think in a relationship. Yeah, I do think that she is, at least her musical persona, is fond of the French exit. in a relationship. Yeah. What about Maria?

Because I'm into Maria. Yeah, I was like, here we go. Yeah. You know what I like about Maria that I also like about French exit? That I do think we should give Julie for her flowers for one appropriate 90s reference

when it's there. Pan flute. Yes, that's what I was going to say. Fucking Zamfier, master of the pan flute showed up. He went a little too heavy duty for me on this track. I would have liked less Samfier.

But great song. I used to have this spin instructor when I lived in Boston who was like, he could have been a stand-up comedian. And if he would play like Shakira or something or anything with Pan flute,

he would just do bits about the pan flute the entire time and everyone would be in stitches. And so whenever I hear Pan flute, I hear Johnny's voice in my head going pan flute and I did that so much listening to this album.

I love it. There is some real pan flute all over this thing. We used to be a society that appreciated the pan flute and Doolipa is bringing that back. Tub thumping ass dance beats and pan flute.

Bring it on Dua. Create your new genre. Well, I like the last three songs on this record a lot. And I don't know that they're my favorite, but I think we definitely

agree on French exit. I'm interested I actually like these walls I have to say Oh Sam I really did Her vocal sounds great Andrew Wyatt did the production on it

Which is a little different So that might be It's kind of a sad song You're fucked Like the walls would say you're fucked Like way to go Dua It is The walls are not pulling any punches

The walls are telling the truth I love the very subtle Gaga poker face reference in the first line. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's, this song is subtle. I like maybe we should switch careers. Yeah.

Just because it's, it is specific in a, I'm not even totally sure what she means, means by that, but it's specific in a way that, you know, we don't always get from her. And I'm not saying that in general I like it, but I think it, or that I want it. But I think it works here.

And when she pulls it off, it's kind of like, then what, you know, then what would you be doing? What would this person be doing? Like, what are we talking about here? Um,

and obviously you can, you know, you can, you can, you can do the page six speculative stuff and try to figure it out. Um, but I,

I like this song a lot. Yeah. I also think that it, it builds. You know, there's the, the bridge to the song, really goes to a different place.

And it feels a little bit for a while like it's a fairly simple, just, you know, hooky, hooky dance song. But I think it has a little bit more like shape and gives you different acts to it. So I'm into it. I am sometimes like, I go back and forth on how much I think

they'd say you're fucked. works. Oh, I love it. I do think I ultimately like it. I love it. There's some part of it for me that sounds a little bit like some music from Harry's house. And I can't even put my finger on it. But I think I'd like to hear Harry like cover a bunch of this record. I don't know if it's like grape juice or something. Like there is some hairy stuff in these walls that I'm into. Well, there's, you know, there's, there's, there's, there's, Tobias Jetso is in the mix here who's done more stuff with Nile, but some stuff with Harry. So, you know, but I, I agree with you. I think that Harry and Dua could cover all of each other's stuff, but it would be fun. Well, so we seem to agree on a lot of stuff so far. What do you think about falling forever? I fucking hate it.

Is it because of the gallop? It's because, first, I mean, it's the how long. It's just such a shocking start for me. It sounds like that sting song. What is the gallop? Explain to me because maybe it tells me. So I like the, I actually like the hook on the chorus. You do.

I like the melody of it. I think it's catchy. I think it's grabby. There's just, there's the thing that when we get to the chorus, the rhythm does that. like, butabup, but a pub,

but a pub, but a pub. And it's the, it's the Taylor Swift horse movie. Like, why am I in the saddle? To me,

it's the how long? That thing, it's a little bit of like a yodel. Or like, what I was going to say is it sounds like the sting song

Desert Rose to me. But there's also a little bit of like shares believe in here. There's a fair bit of share like interspers. Yeah. Yeah. I,

the reason that I, wouldn't cut it is I said I fucking hate it. I don't fucking hate it. But I just get, I got so jarred by the intro. As much as I'm a little bit jarred by the vocal yodel there,

I actually think the breaks in her voice on this song as she's sort of escalating in the chorus, I love. They're really strong. And it's, like, I was this, when I heard this song, I was like, man, this woman can sing.

Yeah, she's singing really, really well. It's always fun to get an album from an artist who's just been on tour, or not just in her case, but who's been on tour for a long time. Usually they're singing really well. And I think she's singing really well. It's the best, it's the best demonstration of her voice. And there are little bits, you know, in the production where they cut out either in the middle of the song or at the end of the song and let her do some like subtly really creative things with her voice. It's it, it is the best showcase for her voice of anything she's put out. And, I loved it. Okay. So let's let's be clear here. What are we cutting? What would you cut? Well, I had what you're doing. I really did. Because I couldn't cut falling forever because of the vocal performance. I think you're going to cut training season.

Oh, yeah, that's interesting. I'm not. Okay. I can't say I have a ton of use for training season. I do think it's just sort of funny. Yeah. It's big. It's salty, but is it good? Is it sultry? I don't know if I'm calling sultry. It's just a funny idea.

Like the specific album art where she's wearing the leg warmers and she's on the pole. I just had a lot of questions. Look, here's what we know about training season. And I did think the Grammy performance was pretty awesome. And in the whole Go Girl,

give us nothing. she took that feedback. This artist does the work. She is about self-improvement. She is not just talking about it as some sort of like cool, you know, 25 to 35-year-old white woman nonsense.

Like she heard that feedback. She went out. She did the work. She now crushes her performance. She is a really interesting performer in ways that I think she sort of figured out. I wish that for one of these singles, maybe she had introduced some kind of, like,

iconic dance move that got associated with it. Feels like that might have sold the song a little bit better, even though I thought that performance on the Grammys was really good. So I wouldn't cut training season for that reason. I just think it didn't, it just doesn't land because it doesn't, again, have that moment where you're like, okay, I'm invested in that. Training season's over isn't a line in the same,

in the same way that some of her, you know, some of her hits have. It is also, it is a particularly British phrasing. You know, she's, I don't think she's having any trouble communicating the idea of what the song is about. Pre-season's over here? Pre-season, yeah. Yeah, it's super British. The pre-draft process is over. What are you cutting?

The funny thing is I'm sitting here and I'm like struggling. End of an era. No. No, I like End of an era. I think it's fun. What are you cutting? And I also think, again, just in terms of the self-awareness, I think I'll fall in love and I think I'll leave the club is sort of fun.

It's just like Lucy Goosey and I like when she's sort of talk singing and it's a cool song. Well, how do you feel about illusion then? Like of the three singles, where does it fall? I like the church bells on illusion. I just feel. Yeah, I love that instrumental break. I do think illusion is the one that, you know, you said that to you, Houdini feels like too compressed. Like it just doesn't get to a place that would really grab you.

And I think that's, I think that's fair. Illusion to me is the one that feels, it feels like a small song trying to be big. Oh, the chorus. I don't mind it. And again, I dig that instrumental break. I guess, look. I don't, anything for love to me is not finished. I like some of the ideas,

but I think I would have rather gotten that song when it was a finished version of it. So I'm going to cut that. I'm so disappointed in you. Sorry. I need this song for the, for the, you know, to hold on to the straws that I'm grasping at that duo poured herself

into this record emotionally. I wonder if part of, I wonder if there's, and I should feel guilty, because I probably contribute to this in some way. But I wonder if there is, to your point about her taking feedback pretty readily and pretty well, I wonder if there's a little bit of a thing where, you know, she does seem to be receiving this idea of like, duly, but you're always on vacation. She talked about it in her monologue.

And, yes, which was that was the, the, I'm British, so we call it a holiday. I thought was very funny. Yeah, well, I'm American, we call it preseason. I wonder if she, like, to me, all of those things are positive. All of those things, the stuff about just the fact that she has this very unbothered presentation and seeming way of interacting with the world. I find that really charming and refreshing. and I think it stands out against the backdrop of a lot of what's going on in pop music.

And I think it works. And I think it works with the dance pop that she does typically make. I wonder if there's a little bit of hesitancy of knowing whether or not to lean into that because she's wondering, do I take the feedback or do I not? Can I be serious in an unsurious genre? Can I be taking seriously in a somewhat? unsurious genre is probably the tension there.

And I would like to think that the answer is yes and that she doesn't have to she doesn't have to become like lowercase singer songwriter or move in that direction in order for that to happen. No.

I'm not saying that I think that she would ever go all the way. I'm just saying that I think that you know this is a person who has spent a lot of like genuinely a lot of time in the club which is not always that common for people who become, you know, you become famous when you're young. You're not necessarily like out in the world. I do a leap, but don't leave the club is what I'm saying.

I want them cutting off day drinking with Seth Myers because she got too drunk. I want that in my life. I don't want her to change. Let's talk about the collaborators. So the core crew that she talked about sort of making this album with Like a Little Band is Caroline Alin, Kevin Parker, Danny Harle, and Tobias Chesso. Talk to me about whose influences you hear coming through the most on radical optimism. I think her most important collaborators, none of those people.

I think her most important collaborator is Cam Gower Pool, who is the vocal engineer on this record. She specifically thanks him in the note that she put out on socials about the record when it came out. And her vocals are awesome on this record. She was singing into an SM7, which is just sort of an average run-of-the-mill microphone. She ended up replacing some of those vocals,

but she felt like she could have put the record out with the energy that he was able to capture. And if I take one thing from this album that's going to be received a little bit lukewarm overall, given the level of expectation. To your earlier point, this is a good record, and it's, you know, most people would be thrilled to have this level of streaming. But if there's one thing I'm going to take away, it's wow, wow, do Aleepa can sing.

And she sounded great on the live performances too, and, you know, obviously that SNL stage can be tough. I love that. As tempted as I am to name the pan flute, the most important collaborator. Zamfier. You know, I think I think it's just the, I do really hear

that they made this album like a little band and I think in all of the little spoken word interludes and the combination like one of the things that I love about Maria

is that you get the combination of that like acoustic almost sort of like flamenco sounding guitar but then it's playing with those like bleep bloop weirdo alien baseline

things. And when you read off the... Go listen to it. Alien weirdo baseline things? Go listen to it. It's like way more... I mean, it's a little bit of the psychedelic stuff, but it's weirder than that.

Okay. It's like gurgly and it sounds like it's from out of space. Yeah. I just wouldn't have described it that way, but I got you. Well, I would have. And then, of course, we get the pamphloop. So... I found it hard to separate anyone from anyone else.

I mean, you know, I really like what you're doing. And I think you can very clearly hear that that's a song that Kevin Parker had a lot to do with. But I didn't feel like it was doing the album justice to separate them. So I did the band as a whole. Okay. That's kind of a cop out, but I'll give it to you. I don't think, but it's true. I think it's true.

I think it's correct. I think the production is cool on this record, as much as I, like, there are times where it feels a little bit busy to me. But I, I think the vibes were good. And I just think there, I wish that they had had one hit, like one more like elevated hit. If that's on this record, then I feel awesome about it. That's right.

Did you have a peak duo? I mean, my peak duo was the end of the SNL performance. Like just whipping her head around. first thing you see when you die they definitely set that shot up. That must have been the most work they did all week was how are we going to get to smoke machines just fucking firing so that you can barely see her

and do it was like, I know what I'm doing at the end of this song. I'm just going to hair whip. Mine was every reference to dancing, which I think we've covered. But it just doesn't like, that's my girl. She's got to dance. It's essential.

It is her emotional support action. dancing. It's like, what? I'm feeling. I mean, that's why people saying she couldn't dance must have hit so hard. Because like dancing is this woman's life. That's how she disassociates from difficult feelings. And relationships, apparently. Next album appetizer. So you mentioned

you think that happy for you fits in this category. Will you tell me more about that? Happy for you or anything for love. There was more space in happy for you. And anything for love gave us like a really stripped down ballady thing. And I just think, I mean, I'm going to sound like a broken record. I think her voice sounds tremendous.

And I hope that they will, as she continues to write, that they'll square up some production that continues to showcase that and push it. Because, man, it feels like she can go in a whole bunch of different ways. And do you think that that is, does that mean doing something

a little bit more down tempo, a little bit more mellow? Or do you think that there's a way to do that while also getting the people to shake the asses as has been aforementioned? Yeah, I think it's both. My criticism of the songs that were supposed to be hits on this record is there should be like a moment where she's, you know,

where she's doing a Gaga vocal moment, right? Where Gaga just goes, the edge, the edge, the edge, you know, whatever. Like, edge of glory, like that kind of thing in a song. Doa can carry that shit. Yeah. I'd like to hear her cover that song now that you're mentioning it. Give it to me. I have a hard time feeling like there's going to be a song from this album that is going to have a bigger footprint than dance the night.

Correct. But is that what's next? I don't quite know what that means just because that is not a song that, you know, is. terribly different from the hits of future nostalgia. I do think for better for worse, but I trust her to figure this out. And it's a mode that I hope remains sort of paramount. I think the priority for whatever she does next

is going to be to have a song like that. Yeah. And to have something that just hits in that way. So, you know, while I hope it comes with a continued interest in refreshing the sounds, which is something that she deserves a lot of credit for here, because in some ways, it's not the simplest thing to say like, okay, Dooley, but you've made this huge dance record. Make another dance record. But it has to be different.

And it has to sound like something that's fresh and new. And I think she's done that. Like I think the sort of like more psychedelic, touches in some of the production make it feel like something that I haven't heard from her. So I want to give her credit for that. But at the same time, in my heart of hearts, I think that the most future nostalgiae song of this era is still going to be the touchstone. Which doesn't, you know, that's, that sets up a challenge.

You also thought that that was a better song than the Billy song, which one song of the year? I, yeah. So this is, some of this is you coping with the women. I've moved on. I've moved on to I'm Just Ken. Well, the world has moved on from I'm Just Ken because the Fall Guy cost $125 million to make and only made $25 million. Well, then you better go see the Fall Guy because otherwise that movie's going to be in the Rift. No, but I didn't think I'm just Ken and I thought the Billy song was the best song.

The Billy song is good. I'm not knocking the Billy song. All right, let's do best lyric. Well, I can't wait to hear what you say. I didn't do it. I mean, ironically, it is right now I can't give you what you want. And then she pivots immediately to everybody's dancing. I just can't.

It just. Because right now I can give you what you want. I don't think that's the answer. Yeah. Unironically, I'd say it's the part in Happy for you where she says, I must have loved you more than I ever knew. I'm happy for you. Like, I really liked that line a lot.

I suppose my version of that would have been the, the what you're doing pre-chorus, the if control is my religion. Which I don't have a, I don't have the problem with that you do, but I just, everybody's dancing. Come on. Get with the program.

That's what we came here for. And that's what we got. And as you pivot to grading this album, do you think that in the dual lore, this will be something that everybody's dancing to? Or when they queue up their playlist, is it going to be the Barbie song and it's going to be levitating?

Duolipa with the baby. And it's going to be some of the other songs from Future Nostection. I think it's, I think it is going to be, look, I think it's going to be the latter. I think that Future Nostalgia is a better album. than this. I think those songs are going to last in a way that a lot of the songs

on radical optimism probably won't. They're really good songs. I do think that part of what we're talking about here has to do with this album. And I also think that part of it has to do with just the times we live in in terms of how hard it is to get stuff to be sticky. Because people should be listening to this album, but I think

we know that to some degree they're just not. But do you think that's because they're not taking her seriously? Because they feel like they know it's not. I really don't. But I also think it's because they're listening to espresso. I think it's because I really think that they're listening to espresso. I think everyone is just listening to espresso. I do think that there is a particular challenge.

Like, sorry for mentioning this in like the last two minutes of this podcast. I guess we talked about it a little bit at the top. Doolipa is right now, though I am interested and I hear your points about her exploration of like additional personal depth on this album. And I think that's cool and I'm excited to go back and listen with those those things in mind. Doolipa is firmly in the That's That Me espresso school of hit making. And it's it's probably not ideal that that song is hitting the way that it's hitting. right as she's trying to launch this thing. That's what I'm saying.

Because one of the things that we really know about the current, like sort of musical consumption ecosystem is that people don't seem to have room for a lot of things at the same time. Things that hit can really, really, really, really hit. And then there's a fair amount that at least, you know, you are the expert here, but it sure seems like a lot of stuff that's still good can get lost in a shuffle. 100%.

Chaparone got lost in a shuffle for over a year. And now she's having a breakout moment. But I do think the way that we think about and define and our lanes are created for pop stars is shifting right in front of us. And that's what's so cool about this project that we're working on this spring is that you still got Billy to put out a record. You got Camilla Cabellos about to put out a record. You got like a lot, like, is there spate? There's space for Billy Eilish. I think she probably transcends.

But if you're Billy, you're looking at Dua and going, okay, it's not easy. You know, if I, it's going to depend on whether I have a song that connects. And there is just a lot of, there are a lot of cars on the freeway right now, trying to get to the off ramp to success. And there's only space in the attention span of music fans. I think we're learning for so much, unless you have this cinematic universe around you,

in which case, Cowboy Carter, the fan base is going to take and go into. Tortured Poets Department, the fan base is going to take and go into. Dua's music has not created a cinematic universe around her. It's created a lot of twerking and ass shaking. And that in 2020 was certainly enough. Today, we might, might, might be learning that it's, not. I really want it to be enough because I can't do the dulypo cinematic universe. There's just not that many characters. I do think that this, especially after talking it through.

Yeah, just fun. Just like something light, something fun. But I do think that this is the type of album. I think this is a good enough album that it's going to be. it's going to be like a Carly Ray Jepson album. It's going to be something that in three years, there's not going to be a huge, like massive crew of people, but there is going to be a critical mass that is really passionate about telling you that this album is really good

and that this album got overlooked and that it's still really fun to revisit. And I think that when people do go back, the songs are going to hold up. is that a little bit out of sync with the idea of Duolipa, one of the biggest current working pop stars, co-chair of MetGala, person who gets rules in movies all the time, closing act at the Grammys,

headliner of Glass and Burry, yada, yada, yada. Yeah, it's a little bit out of step with that. And that's the problem that she's going to have to solve when she goes forward. But this is going to be a real one's no album. And I don't know that I felt that way the, the first time that I listened to that, just because I was a little bit tethered to the idea of a future nostalgia. But I really do think that that's going to be the eventual place for this.

It's her reputation. I love that. I love that. What would Dula Lipa's reputation be? Well, I don't know. Let's let her get through this moody British actor boyfriend and see what falls out of it. I gave this album a B. Yeah.

I kind of want to change it to a B plus. Well, I'll tell you why I do it. I'm giving it a B plus. I'm into it. You know what? Screw everyone. You just want to dance. I just want to dance. I gave it a B because there's two sort of vectors that I think about when grading albums. One is just overall, like, how do I feel about the music?

But then the other one is like, what is this artist capable of? And I will remind you, that you gave tortured poets a bee. But you can't really compare artist to artist for that reason, because I think there is something about the grading for us on this podcast that is about what this artist is actually capable of. And I think that this album was extraordinarily well done, and it just misses one thing.

It just needs a hit. And the group that got together has produced a lot of hits over the course of their career, and somebody decided that it was enough and that somewhere between illusion and Houdini and why do I want to say training day? Training season for crying out loud. That one of those was going to resonate.

And you know what? Sometimes it does, Nora, because we've been talking about espresso, and I am telling you sure as Sunday that neither the label nor the manager nor the artist of Sabrina Carpenter and Sabrina Carpenter herself thought that espresso was going to do what it's doing.

And so sometimes it just catches the zeit guys, catches a moment and it happens. So I understand why they went for it. But I do think that that group and that crew probably sat back and said, there isn't that moment. And maybe they were snowed a little bit by the end of the album, in that there's some different stuff. I think you get to know do it better on this record.

And that that might have covered or distracted them from the reality that there wasn't that one. explosive hit on this record. And so for that reason, for me, it's a B. All right. I love it. I love Doolipa and I love talking about Dula Lepa, so this has been a joy for me. This has been every single album. I'm Nora Pinciotti. As always, he is Nathan Hubbard. Thank you so much to Isaiah Blakely for producing this episode. Thank you to Kai McMullen for her additional production supervision. We're going to be back next week. We've got some great stuff plans, so we'll talk to you then.