Every Single Album - 'Short n' Sweet' | Every Single Album: Sabrina Carpenter

Episode Date: August 29, 2024

As a capstone to Pop Girl Summer, Sabrina Carpenter's new album, 'Short n' Sweet,' is here. Nora and Nathan talk about the wit and playfulness that runs throughout this album (1:00); how Carpenter is trying out a variety of sounds on this album, from R&B to yacht rock (26:21); and some of their favorite lyrics off an album with an array to choose from (41:53). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the summer of 1999, thousands attended what would be the final iteration of the Woodstock Music Festivals. But unlike its namesake, Woodstock 99 was not about peace and love. Joining me as I dive deep into this story about music, mud, violence, and tragedy. From Spotify and the Ringar Podcast Network, I'm Stephen Hayden. And this is Breakstuff, the story of Woodstock 99. Available Tuesday, August 27th. Welcome to every single album. I'm Nora Pryantiati, and I am here, as always, with Nathan Hubbard.

Nathan, we're approaching Labor Day weekend. It is approaching the end of Pop Girl summer. And I'm really excited about our episode today because I really honestly can't think of a better place to end. How are you feeling these last few days of August? I'm feeling like just before we went live, I basically asked if we could make this podcast short and sweet, like the album. and you and I both know that's not possible, especially not with an album like this. We are talking Sabrina Carpenter.

We are talking short and sweet. We'll see if we are short and sweet. It is, I mean, we've only got 36 minutes of songs to discuss here, but she made it pretty, she gave us a lot to talk about. I have to say, I will spoil a little bit. I am just so delighted that this is where we get to kind of close out the summer, Not that, you know, we will continue to come into your earbuds all the time. But this does feel like kind of the caper to what has been a really remarkable summer of releases.

And man, does it feel like Sabrina kind of saved one of the best, if not something even more superlative than that, for the last week of the summer? Yeah, she did. I mean, I think there has been this explosion of female, mostly female, pop music, pop sort of, and we'll talk about it a little bit today because I think there's a lot of stuff on this album that is not pop, and that certainly blends in a ton of different genres. I mean, there's a song on here that could absolutely be on the Laney Wilson album that came out this week, right? But, I mean, it's like... It's a much more varied.

It's much... I don't want to do the pod before. Sometimes we say do the pod before the pod when we're chatting offline. I don't know what do the pod before the intro's over, the equivalent of that is. But this is a much more varied album than I was expecting it to be, which is super cool. But keep going. And so much of what we're going to talk about today, and as I have processed this album over the last couple of days, I'm having to parse my feelings about it into two camps.

Like, what is an objective assessment of something that, I think is really, really good. And what is my elation and surprise at how good this is and how different it is from what I thought we were going to get and how pleasantly surprised I feel about it? I mean, I think we have gotten all of these albums that we've talked about this year. I sort of keep waiting for one of them to massively disappoint. We've had a few that have maybe not been the kind of thing that you're going to revisit over and over and over again, especially with so many great options to choose from. But I just, I'm so fascinated by the quality of the releases in these first eight months of the year. And in particular, how none of them feel

like they're stepping on one another. I think in early 2000s pop, there was a lot of borrowing of sounds, there was some personality, there were some vocal differences, but there was a lot of overlap between some of the pop then. And it just feels like across Billy, Charlie, Taylor, Sabrina, on and on, that each of these women has actually found a lane that is uniquely their own and that they're developing that art form in their own way. And it does stand a little bit in contrast to some of what we're getting from some of the traditional male pop stars, although I think a number of them are on hiatus right now. But the bar has been set in a very compelling way

for what good pop music is, what it sounds like, how you write these songs. And at the end of the day for me, that is the most, that's the biggest surprise for me from this album, is that I think start to finish, it is an astonishingly, astonishingly, astonishingly well-written album full of songs. And it's not...

I'm with you on what has felt so exciting about this summer and all of these releases. I will say, I think there was an era kind of just before where we are now and what feels so exciting about this moment is that some of the same people, I think when you talk about how, you know, in decades past,

it feels like there's a little bit less borrowing and a little bit more like people have found their unique lanes now. I think that's true. I think what's interesting about that is that happened in part because some of the same people who were so excited that they've figured out what their own thing was. Two years ago, they were trying to be Taylor Swift. Yeah.

And so I think there was some of that, too. But I think what's been exciting about this summer is that people have kind of come out of that. And Sabrina is a great example of that because she's, in the, you know, she's in the Swiftyverse, but she doesn't let it get in her way of being her own artist. Yeah. And that definitely has come through, I think, with what's, like, really just become such a penetrating set of singles and a really great album. But the sort of penumbra of Taylor is still cast over this album and a lot of the other albums that we talk about in that I think it's, really hard to make, especially if you were a female artist right now, an album with relatively

vapid, impersonal, non-piercing lyrics. I think it's maybe part of what had the duo record struggle a little bit on a relative basis, because I just don't know that somebody listens to that, even though it was important to a duo and she talked about how meaningful the songwriting was to her. There still was a veneer there. There still, I think, is some distance between you and Dua that doesn't create mystery so much as it just creates almost just sort of a passive relationship between the listener and the song. You don't get personally invested in it. And Taylor has set the bar for whether it was Charlie talking about her own insecurities through songwriting, whether it is the way that Billy just sort of writes as who she is. It's just sort of the,

The list goes on. And I do think that Sabrina here, we heard it a little bit on emails I Can't Send. We heard her start in the opening number where she writes about her father. That sort of set the tone for that album. Don't make me cuss you out. Why'd you let me down? Don't say sorry now. And I think the way that we have received her through the first two singles from this record, you might have thought that this was just going to be all fun and horny pop. It is fun, horny pot. It is mostly. But it is not vapid, you know, it doesn't want for her own personality and self. It is intelligent.

It is incredibly smart in its writing in its substance. And do not listen to the critics who tell you that this is a, you know, sort of a motion-free, just put it on and go spin album. If that's what you want, go listen to do is, records because they're great and they're good times. Do it is nothing if not fun. Or listen. What I think is so great about this one is or listen to this one and peel back one one out of eight layers. Yes. Right? Like you'll have a great time. Yes. I think what you're saying is totally like that all resonates with me. That's part of my experience of listening to this.

I do think, I think to me the way that I perceive it is like Taylor created a permission structure. she sort of raised the bar of if you're going to have a great album in anything even adjacent to her space, there is kind of, as you said, this expectation that it's going to be a little insightful. It's going to be either personal or vulnerable. Storytelling is essential even in these, like, even in the dance pop-yest of the dance pop hits on this album. I think some of that, like, you don't get that without the tale of Taylor Swift. But it's not, she's not copying. You know, she's not just trying to do the same thing.

No. It's like actually she can go out and do a kind of different aesthetic lane of pop music. Yeah. That I think people were really ready for because there just hadn't been a lot of it. Generationally, this sounds more like Chapel and Olivia than Taylor and Dua. The way that she is comfortable expressing herself, the transparency that is forced on people of that generation through social media and the camera always being on in their homes,

whether you're famous or not, it translates into the way that she communicates with the end listener here. And also, like, there's just, there are different ways of, there are different forms of intelligence, right? And there's an insightfulness, I swear to God, to understanding that that's that me espresso

was going to really click for people and feed a desire for something just fun and exciting and silly. Yeah. That I think, you know, I don't want us to be saying that that's not smart in its own way, and that's not a type of cleverness. No, I think that's what I'm saying is. It's just, it is extremely intelligent writing. I think the Charlie record is extremely intelligent in that it sort of sounds like,

club, I don't give a fuck music, but the more you listen to it, the more it sort of is her expressing, again, these piercing insecurities. There's no insecurity on this record. This is a confident as fuck record. It's one of the most confident, if the most confident pop records of the year in the way that she's comfortable with who she is, in the way she eye rolls, in the way she brings everyone in on her inside joke. And she can be silly and she can be flawed, but never for lacking confidence. And I think that is why she's easy to root for. It's part of her appeal. She's just very fun.

She's just, I mean, the first, like, one of the first things that struck me, and then we can get it into our categories. But the first things that struck me when I started to play this, just top to bottom, the first three songs on this album. So that's Taste, Please, Please, Please, and Good Grace is. All three of those songs are just full out threats. And every time you breathe is there, just know I was already there. Like, every single one of them is just threatening some dude.

Yeah. And that's great. That's what I want to listen to in the last week of August from, you know, one of the most descendant pop stars in the world. I absolutely love that so much of this is just like, if you fuck up, I'm going to absolutely ruin your life. Yeah. Which is this, I mean, talk about Elaine.

That's Elaine someone needed to fill. Well, she might be doing it on this record. record right out of the gate. Yeah, I think so. All right. Let's talk about the biggest hit. Yeah. And clarify for me something right off the top because obviously I think summer 2024 will go down with a few songs of the summer.

But espresso is certainly one of them. Am I correct in feeling that espresso overtime has been bigger than please, please, please, please. is clearly the biggest song from this album, although please, please, please did get to number one. Espresso, third fastest song to get to a billion streams on Spotify. Fair to say, espresso of the early releases that takes the cake? Yes, but I think the lore between how the choice was made to release espresso first and please, please, please, second,

is part of the history of this album. And look, right now, espresso has streamed probably twice as much as Please, Please, Please. It came out earlier. But on a daily basis, Please, Please, Please is probably only streaming about 5% more, which is to say, people are still listening to Espresso. And I think over time, it's going to continue to be the thing that was the song of the summer. But even Taste, Taste is streaming as strongly as those two songs right now. That was going to be my next question is, like, how far is,

taste going to go. Yeah, I think it probably won't have the leg simply because espresso got caught up in that cultural moment. But taste has replaced, please, please, please at the top of some charts. So it is working. But I think the lasting biggest song from this record has to be espresso. Taste, though, might have the best big smash hit chorus of all three of them. I mean, that I'm interested to get your feedback on that. I think it certainly has, and this is saying something, because the please, please, please music video was great. It certainly has the biggest video.

And that's a part of this album that is fun, which is the former Disney star, at least on film, you got to watch it. And there is a visual component to most of her songs here that is as important as listening to the song itself. I mean, the Gena Ortega video for Tate.

is incredible. I mean, it is gory, it is violent. There are parts of it that are just for me was like, whoa, hard to watch. Yeah, when she goes through the fence posts, I'm like, oh, God, like, I don't watch horror movies. I don't watch anything gory. And I'm like, how is this Sabrina Carbender music video

the grossest thing I've seen? I mean, Sabrina has no fear of getting messy, literally and figuratively. In the first 30 seconds of this song, she tells us she's five feet tall. I'm not sure I believe her, but she tells us she's exactly five feet tall. Will Sean Mendez ever recover from this? His lookalike is in the video.

I mean, this is as much of a... I'm sorry, it's over. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of, you know, the Brittany Justin stuff justifiably comes with a lot of controversy. But I'm sort of hard pressed to think of a video since, me a river that, you know, had such a doppelganger and was so directly a shot through the heart, rightly or wrongly. Yeah, I mean, multiple doppelgangers, right?

Like, and I, and I guess I'm now rethinking to your point because, like, I should say, I just have experienced basically everything that has to do with this album with just such a sense of glee. Yeah. But, like, I want to take a step back here and be like, right, like, is this fair? Is this nice? I don't know. Yeah.

I mean, she is, most of the time, she serves up her C word without being cruel. This video, there's some cruelty in this video. But, yes. But it's, the whole patina is. The insecurity laughing at the end. Oh, it's so insecure. Tough.

It was a little, I don't know how you put up. Lots of trauma. Lots of trauma. Very insecure. Very insecure. You kill me. But it's... It's silly enough that, to me,

like, everything happens with a wink, including the eviscerations. Do you think she's friends with Camilla Cabello? No, I certainly do not. Because that's the vibe through most of the end of the video is, all right, we can be friends. No, in real life, like, given the story that we're getting here, I don't know, it seemed like they had...

They're not making out. Like Jenna and Sabrina on film. They're not making out in the future. I got it. I just guess it sounds like there's a lot of water under the bridge. Maybe I don't know if it were me. I would probably suggest that everybody stay in their corners. Yeah.

Was this a love triangle you were like in the loop on? No. Oh my God. No. This is also what's funny about it. It's like... It's not something people have been talking about through the first two singles. No, it's the same.

second, and it's also the second Sabrina Carpenter, like, mid-level celebrity love triangle? That we didn't really know about. And I think part of the thing where it came out of just totally nowhere made it fun.

Like, we need to start calling them Carpent Triangles. Carpent Triangles. I was reading, there's a great Charlie XX story in New York Mag that Taylor was quote, voted in and that was making the rounds. And like one point in that story had to do with the fact that because of sympathy as a knife, because of girl so confusing, the rollout of that album,

even though Charlie was, you know, did a little bit to pull it back and was like, these aren't distracts, but she didn't set, you know, she wasn't totally forthcoming. It gave people something to gossip about in a way that wasn't like dark or sinister, but it was just sort of like fun and frothy and fluffy. I feel like that's happening here, too. Yep. I mean, look, the Please, Please, Please video sort of hard-launched the relationship

with Barry. Right. Like, even that was a piece of it, but then all of a sudden this thing comes out and it's like, wait, hold on. Sabrina Carpenter's album is about, like, a weird love triangle situationhip with Sean Mendez. Like, this is not something that I was ready for and you're going down

the Twitter, like, threads and all the rabbit holes. And, like, I don't even really, the facts of the case here are less interesting to me or exciting than just sort of the glee of like, oh, you guys want to hear how it was? I'm going to tell you how it was. And that's really, I'm into it. She was a professional tea spiller.

She's not afraid of the mess. She has no apologies or regrets about it. And again, that's part of her appeal. It's rare that somebody comes back from fucking driver's license. or traitor being written about them, like it actually bounces back from a moment like that, and here she is.

It really is like, don't get sad, get even in an album. It's happening. All with a smile, like all with a smile and a glitter heart, and it's a fun,

it's a very, very fun aesthetic. Yeah. Her superpower, I really think, like, her superpower is breaking the fourth wall. Like she just has this mastery at making you feel like you're part of that inside joke. Like she makes her fun.

It is her thing that she can turn to you. And you talked about those first three songs. She breaks the fourth wall in good graces. I won't give a fuck about you. I won't give a fuck about you. That was cool. right? That was cool after the, I won't give a fuck about you. Like she breaks it and please, please, please, please for sure.

She just in so many parts across this album. Even like in taste, right? Yeah. The first song of the album, saying about it don't mean I care. Yeah, I know I've been known to share. Yep. Which is funny because a lot of people knew about her in an earlier moment because of the first love triangle.

the Carpin Triangle. And then it's sort of like, I don't even know if I clocked that lyric the first time I heard it understanding that a lot of this was, the album was going to be about like sort of the fallout of a quasi-casual love triangle.

Right. But in hindsight, going back to it, it's like, oh, one, it's just a funny amount of self-awareness. But two, it does kind of lay that out. of like, just because these songs deal with this thing doesn't mean it's like a huge deal to me, but I'm going to tell you a story, like I would tell you a brunch.

Right. Well, there's no doubt that the two biggest songs on here are espresso, and please, please, please. I think espresso is the one that endures, but there are more singles on this album. And I mean, I have to tell you as we get to best song, incredibly, I think the best stretch of the album, is after espresso.

I think the stretch from dumb and poetic through lie to girls is my favorite part of the album. I think Juno might be the best song on the album. Dude, Juno goes. Really love Sharpest Tool and we should talk about that song. I like Slim Pickens a ton.

I like Slim Pickens a ton. I guess it's you that I'll be kissing. I just, Juno for me, it's got everything. And it's sitting there towards the back part. It's almost like

Pink Pony Club on the Chapel record or something. It's like, how is this all the way back here? Let's acknowledge that this is a song about being, quote, so fucking horny

that she's asking her lover to come get her pregnant through the analogy of the movie. V. Juno. Perpenter is the only person who could pull this song off. And she totally does.

I mean, it's got somebody's baby by Jackson Brown in it. You know, the vocal run on hormones are high is super Ariana-esque. But great. And again, here she breaks the fourth wall. It is, I think it's the best

song on the album. So I don't quite go that far. quite agree with you about the back half being where the strongest stuff is. But of that stretch you just put out, and there's some songs that I like elsewhere in that. But Juno is absolutely what I would pull out of that. Where are you on Sharpest Tool then? Yeah, I like it. Oh, really? I think it's, I find it a little underwhelming. I find it clearly the most Taylor song on the album. I think the storytelling is really precise. and cool and interesting.

I think I find it musically underwhelming because I wish it had a real chorus. Yeah, I mean, it sounds a little bit like such great heights, the Postal Service song. But to me, this struck me in the same way that part of the band from the 1975 album, or even cringes

Or even I'm ever, From Evermore hit me Where I was like, whoa This is range and something different It is not a coincidence That those last two songs Are Jack songs, I think

But this thing starts out We had sex, I met your best friends Then a bird flies by and you forget I love the bird line. I think the bird line is great. We had sex. I met your best friends. Then a bird flies by and you forget.

It's a great, I mean, it's like about, you know, being Dory. It's basically about the Taylor Swift fan base. Like, the Taylor Swift fan base forgets every 30 seconds. I say that about myself all the time is like I got distracted by a bumblebee. Sure. You know? Sure. I don't know.

I think that particular metaphor. The song starts with her basically calling. him dumb, but then it evolves into something that's a lot different, him cheating on her, hiding the phone, and then not talking about it. Like, it's just, it's lyrically rich. This is where I was like, do not listen to the critics that are saying, this is just fun and horny. If you're not paying attention, she's fucking smarter than almost every pop star out there, and it's coming through in this song that Jack, to his credit, had a lot to do with. I love this song. I think the storytelling is,

close to as good as it gets on the whole album. I agree with you that the thing about the, you know, the phone upside down, that's really vivid to me. She brings you in. It also is like, it's a little bit more emotionally potent than some of the other tales that she's weaving. It's, to me, the music is a little bit of a letdown. And maybe part of that is because it does come after.

The opening three, which are all, they're all upbeat. They all kind of smack you in the face. and having really enjoyed that through three tracks, I think I wanted it to go somewhere that it didn't quite go musically, but it does kind of unfold itself. Like, there keep being good moments where you don't necessarily expect a texture.

Is this the one, I'm trying to hear this song in my head, is this the one where her voice is like coming sort of forward and back in the mix? Sure. Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, I mean, it's... I don't love that. I didn't love that.

She's very present on the mic here. She's not doing... No, but there's one where it's... She's like... They put some effect on it where it sounds like she's like sort of getting closer to you and then further away

and then closer to you and then further away. Well, I'll go back and listen to it. I didn't... My vibe on this one was it's a very intimate song. It's almost like she's whispering into somebody's ear,

but it gets sharper and more incisive and then... It is... probably if there is a vulnerability moment on the album between this and lie to girls. I've never seen an ugly truth that I can't bend is something that looks better. I'm stupid but I'm clever. This is it. Yeah.

I prefer, of the two, I prefer lie to girls. You do? Yeah. I mean, the bridge and the outro, the way it builds, I adore that song. Yeah, I mean, I also, you know, not to spoil, but like, there's something about I can make a shit show look a whole lot like forever where the first I was like, oh, that's a lyric contender. Like, that's good. That's memorable. Yeah, I can make a shit show look a whole lot like forever and ever. Well, wait a minute. The whole thing with the tarot card and with her mom. Like, it's totally, it is in, you mentioned Lainnie Wilson. There's something about that. where it's like the unfolding of all of these different stories

feels sort of country in a cool way. I love that song. I think that's a great song. What do you think is the best song on this album? It sounds like you really are into good graces. I mean, that's the most... I am really into good graces. Good call.

You know, like, let me just say it that I think... I just think espresso... Okay. I think espresso's going to last. Like, I think in five years, I'm going to feel about espresso by Sabrina Carpenter the way that... Recent events aside, truly no shade.

the opposite of it. The way that I think of like Teenage Dream by Katie Perry. You make me. Yeah. As sort of like, just like

essential and gargantuan in a way that just doesn't happen all that much. The other ones that I'm super in on, I think it would be taste or good graces. Okay. You really like the start

of this record. Wow. I really like the start of this record. Yeah. Taste I told you, I do feel like that chorus and kind of,

you know, like the almost sort of yacht rock, like dad rock quality to it is really, really groovy and fun. Yep. I agree. I also, I think there are like, there are two moments that I just think are so cheeky and silly and I'll never forget that she did them. First of all, the opening line, the I leave quite the impression five feet to be exact. First of all, I'm with you. This is revisionist history.

You're already lying to me, Sabrina. Yeah. This is like guys. We're in a carpet triangle with your height now. I don't agree. The other thing, though, is like, there's something about that line where I can't not think of, like, the Kool-Aid man going through the wall, except it's shaped like Sabrina Carpenter. Because, like, usually when someone, when you say someone leaves an impression, like, or someone leaves quite the impression, you're not really talking about them physically. Right.

But so then when she immediately makes it about her height, all. all I can think of is just like a Sabrina Carpenter-shaped hole coming through a wall. Well, there's a hole through her in this video. So she's doing a lot of physical comedic acting in the Taste video. It is also, you know, this album is getting pretty fawning and stellar reviews. And I was reading through some stuff. And it was striking me as a funny thing that, you know, we've sort of been in the zeitgeist with her through the Erez tour and with the nonsense. Outros and a little bit in conjunction with Olivia and everything.

But like, I don't, when I think of Sabrina, I don't think of her as like Disney star trying to break out. But I was reading all these reviews. And in the first paragraph of basically everything, it was like Disney Girl is now, you know, growing into her own individual person, which I know, there's nothing wrong with that. I just was like, oh, it's funny. It's sort of a moment when you realize how other people look at someone. one. But to me, where I'm always like, oh, yeah, Disney Star is when you remember that she's a good physical actor. She has all of these. She has a real stage presence where, you know, not everything about

growing up a child star and going through that machine does great things to people, but there's a lot of skills there and she has them. Well, there's one song that is getting a lot of attention. And, and getting sort of outside views in some different areas, like it's getting more looks on genius and some others. And that's bed cam. I have to just confess

that for the first 24 hours, I thought the song was called Bad Kemp. And I thought she was like, we'd have good bad Kemp. And so I was, and then I looked, I was like, wait a minute, it's bed Kemp. Oh, okay, got it. This is an extremely horny song.

There's no doubt about it. It seems... She's Pete Davidsoning Barry Keoghan. How do you feel about this song, personally? Because it does seem to have a little bit of a guerrilla movement of support. You know what? There's something to be said for someone willing to just, like, be their most unhinged self in public.

Yeah. I think musically, this is one of the, like, closer to J-Dose. versions of something that's sort of in the spirit of the singles. It's very upbeat. It's sort of shiny. It feels like a 2000s Christina song to me.

Yeah, sure. A little bit of R&B. Yeah. Who's the cute boy in the white jacket sounds like the bridge to shake it off with the hell of good hair. Who's the cute boy with the white jacket and the thick accent.

Yeah. And the vocal runs, do you think we're supposed to be able to understand the words in those vocal runs? Or do you think that she herself was maybe even a little embarrassed for her mom to hear that shit? And so she just sings it in a way that you can't quite make it out. I think that's why everybody's running and looking at the lyrics. I think she's smart enough to know that that. In the choruses. That people are going to figure it out.

I don't think, I think, Nathan, I think if you're trying to be, you know, if you're trying to be, you know, if you're trying to be demure, as the kids say, I just don't think that you put Manifest that you're oversized. In a lyric. I think you don't do it, so I think she's probably comfortable with it. The 69 joke is like the tamest part of this. Oh, yes.

I mean, look, there's some Ariana Grande on different parts of this album. And I think Ariana Grande would blush a couple of times listening to Short and Sweet. I mean, yeah, she takes a vocal solo in that song in Bad Kemp, which is kind of cool. Totally. She sounds great. 2000s pop era thing. Yeah. But I'm with you.

I think I just wonder if the reason that it's getting lots of attention is that you can't quite understand what she's singing in the chorus. And then when you unpack it, you're like, wow, this is a horny fucking. it's song. Yeah, except that like part of where it's going viral is screenshots of the lyrics. Yeah. I honestly think it's less about like, oh, that's what she's saying than just Sabrina Carpenter said this in a song. Yeah. And like the whole Shakespeare thing, the why not uponeth me? Yeah. The Prophecy Situation.

Like, it's just unhinged. It's just an unhinged song. She is very comfortable sitting there with her personality in that spot. It's great. Are there, I mean, there are not that many songs on this album. It's 36 minutes.

I'm fine with it being short and sweet. I don't feel like there's a whole lot of fluff. I mean, it's crazy the espresso is buried at, like, what is it, seventh? Yes. I mean, Again, I don't think everybody thought that that was the one. I think that in particular, you know, that a lot of folks, sort of industry folks,

thought that please, please, please was the one that they should go first with. But espresso one, and it certainly set up, please, please, please, but it's, it, it is very much buried further in this album. Can I ask, and do you have any idea, like, if she had a point of view on that and she was like, espresso is where we're going? Yes, that was her point of view, as I understand. That's cool. Yeah. She knew it. She nailed it.

Yeah. Are you asking you what I would cut? I mean, we can get there. Go for it. Okay. Well, so I'm with you. I think this is short and sweet. It's well crafted.

There are very few skips. I think it should have ended one song earlier. Yeah. Me too. I don't know that I needed. Don't smile. It's just the only song that doesn't do it for me. And it's not bad, and I enjoy the lyrical twist.

But I think Lida Girls is so powerful, and it has that build and the outro. It would have been a cool way to just finish the song. But look, where did you come off on, like, Slim Pickens? Since the good ones are deceased or taken, I'll just keep on moaning a bit. Slim Pickens, I think, is so funny. Like, it's just, it's, it's, it's, since, the good ones are deceased or taken. Yeah.

I'll just keep on moaning and bitching. It's just funny. Like there are 15 laugh out loud funny moments on this album. Yeah. And a lot of them and more than a couple of them are in Slim Pickens. The sort of country, the country element of it was surprising. Yeah. It was just unexpected.

I mean, it's almost an Alison Krauss song to me. Like this could be on an Allison Krause song. Kraus hop. Like that, in the chorus, there's a line that's like, just to get my fix in. And there's a step down from the A chord to the G that is a moment. And I was like, why does this keep resonating with? And it is such an Alison Krause move to do that with the banjo in the background. It's just, it's a wonderful song. The boy doesn't even know the difference between there, there, and they are, yet he's naked in my room. It is so good.

This boy doesn't even know the difference between there, there, and they are. Yet he's naked in my room. It's so good. Can I say that I can't figure out how I really feel about that? There's something about it where it... I don't... You're a writer. I think it sounds weird.

I don't know. I love it, but I also get... a little weirded out every time I hear that, but I also think it's so funny that I guess I'm just in on it. I love that she cares. I love that she is intelligent enough to want a guy who doesn't make a stupid fucking post on social media. It's like, let's go to their house, T-H-E-R-E. According to my timeline, if you scroll back through the collective posts of one, Sean Mendez, you will notice a few occasions on which he has. has slipped up.

Well, there you go. So that song, I was like, wow, this is not just a pop album. And, you know, credit to post, who we spoke about last time, just refusing to get getting crammed into a single genre, it's a little more expansive than a pop album, or what it really is is it means that pop is starting to absorb and transpose a, bunch of other genres and assimilate them into whatever this is. And we don't need to be so

precise about a definition and just more sort of appreciative of the ways in which to create new feeling in music when you're still using the traditional one four or five chords and lots of things we've heard before. The A down to the G as a move, blending in other styles to make it feel fresh. Well, and even like good graces could have been a desicest. News Child song, right? Yeah. The way that that intro sounds like, that's that, that is that sort of Y2K era pop R&B.

The bass for sure. And a chorus feels pretty Ariana. So she is like, I don't know how many, this is sort of what you're saying maybe. Like, I don't know how many musical, purely musical textures and moments. there are that like feel revolutionary, right? Like a lot of these things we've heard before.

But she is putting them together in a way that feels pretty fresh. Yeah. I felt like the Billy album, even though it was integrating some house and electronic stuff, did feel a little more pioneering to me musically. But for what this is, it's all here. I want to make sure we touch on a couple of other songs. dumb and poetic. You're so dumb and poetic.

It's just what I fall for. To me, it's got some chapel rhone coffee in it. Can't meet you for dinner at the Italian places. The line about jacking off the lyrics by Leonard Cohen is just so great. It is like, it's the, if I had a nickel for every time in the last couple of years, Leonard Cohen has caught some unexpected strays in a pop song. I only have two nickels, but it's weird it's happened twice. An existential crisis at a Buddhist monastery, writing horny poetry.

Just because you talk like one doesn't make you a man is a very... just a scalpel of a lyric. This is a dig, yeah. I promise the mushrooms aren't changing your life. I mean... That's my favorite part of the song. I live in a part of L.A.

You're so empathetic you'd make a great wife. I promise the mushrooms aren't changing your life. Yeah. I live in a part of L.A. that was host to Sean Mendes when he was, I think, struggling a bit running through some of our canyons and jogging trails with his shirt off.

There was an occasion where several occasions where I'd be driving to and from somewhere. And there's Sean Mendes just shirtless running through town. And I was kind of like, man, you know, you're Sean Mendes. Like, what are we doing here? Why are we shirtless running through the day? Wait, sorry. Can I just clarify that what you're saying is that there was an era of your life in which on a regular basis you would go to run an errand and you would just see Sean Mendes running shirtless through the streets of Los Angeles? Yes.

And I was worried about him. Anyway, she does take some shots here, and this ostensibly was at a moment in time after, you know, Sean was dealing with some stuff, in quotes. So I'm hoping that he can absorb this. I mean, it's a pretty, this is going to be a very, very popular album. The stories about what this is actually about continue to build, and they're, you know, we're only four or five days into this now. there's going to be a lot of conversation about Sean Mendez. I'm hoping that he can hold this. Yeah. You know, I don't think in the interest of this not totally ruining his life,

which I certainly don't think it will, I think part of that, and just to talk about the song a little bit more, I like the song, I think this is a good song. This is one of those songs, and I think this is a credit to this album that there's a couple moments where I feel like this. This is one of those songs where sometimes we talk about this with Taylor, where you hear it and you go, I'd love to hear her try that again.

Like, this is a cool, I like the idea maybe a little bit more than how it comes out on the page. We just, there's a lot of material out there making fun of faux intellectual fuckboys. And let me be so clear that I am all for it. But it's a crowded space, right? So, like, I think Sean can... Tortured Poets, for example. The tortured Poets department. Some might, some might be familiar with it.

So I think Sean... I just feel like Maddie has enough don't give a fucks that he could maybe... Yeah, although, Maddie Healy, like, kind of on a high right now, getting a racist back together. Great job, Maddie. Really good job by you. Stop mauding and headline Glastonbury.

I so deeply wish that I could pull. off saying you're in a marred with your brother and regular conversation, but that's just not available to me. My point here is that, like, I think we've heard enough versions of this song about a bunch of different guys that I don't think it's going to come across

as like Sean Mendez is a puppy murderer. Yeah, okay. I think as an expression of her voice, I really appreciate this song, because we've heard... Oh, she sings so well on this song. Bed cam before this. We've heard some of the R&B stuff

that's like, okay, I get it, but there are some little vocal acrobatics in some of the softer songs. Dumb and poetic is one. Sharp as Tool is another. Slim Pickens is a third lie to girls, really is the fourth for me, where she's showing you some range.

In the softer, lower registers, in just little vocal licks that she throws in, that, you know, I'm not sure on a standout basis, you'd be like, oh, my God, there's that voice, when you listen to Sabrina, the way you'd say that about Billy Eilish, or you might say that about Ariana. But there is, she's got a lot of talent, she's got a lot of chops,

that it's a great vehicle for her personality. Totally. There's a lot of great music, and the music is, it's like, I want to use the word executed, right? Like, it's tight, it's glossy, it takes you in some places you don't necessarily expect. it is fundamentally a vehicle for the persona of Sabrina Carpenter. And that is the thing that has taken over the summer,

has driven the singles, and drives the album, but drives the album in a bunch of different ways. Well, and I will talk about it, but I think that is my underlying question that comes out of this album. We'll talk about that in a second. I just, since we have gone through every song on this album, but one, any thoughts on coincidence?

I thought you were going to have a real... Yeah, I was just going to say we need to talk about this. I love this song. Does it sound like, I mean, again, you listen to this and you're like, oh, Sean Mendez, you are struggling. But it sounds like there's the old, like, big yellow taxi, Joni Mitchell. Or Crosby Stills and Nash.

Sweet Judy Blue. kind of thing. But then there's also, do you hear the shades of history, the One Direction song, which by the way was... I literally, I wrote in my notes after Sharpest Tool said this one's the most Taylor and after coincidence, this one's the most one direction. And yes, totally. It has the sort of like Laurel Canyon sing-along element as well. Julian Bonetta did this. It also has a lot of Canyon Moon by Harry Styles. Well, which is, again, the synthesis of sort of all of these aesthetic. And so on a standalone basis, it's not a song that I thought. But it is so fun. And there is a, again,

she sort of plants some markers in a bunch of different genres. This feels like that Laurel Canyon 70s thing. There's some country. There's some 2000s R&B. And then there's blends across the record that just make it fun. And somehow it doesn't feel stale and repurposed. Can I tell you what I'm obsessed with on coincidence? Yes. Is when she goes into the whisper where she's instead of like a backup vocal, she's doing it in a whisper because to me, like, it gives me this visual of Sabrina whispering in his ear about all of the things that he's done wrong

and like how she's catching him in the act. And it feels so much. like that, I'm going to get you energy that's really palpable. And I think it's so funny. The bridge to- That falls under the umbrella of her ability to bust through that fourth wall, I think. I retweeted a tweet earlier that was like, I love Sabrina Carpenter because her music is like, I'm going to fucking kill you. I think there's something to that, I have to say. It's a lovely smile. Also, perhaps we'll get there in our lyrical section. But I do feel the need to shout out,

what a surprise, your phone just died, your car drove itself from L.A. to her thighs. It's great. It's all over this album. There is incredibly tight, well-written stuff all over the album. So when we talk about her most important collaborator, there's a lot of ways you can go because Jack Antonoff is here

and not in a sometimes annoying overtly Jack Way. I think it's tasteful. I think the work that he does on this album is terrific. Yes, John Ryan and Julian Bonetta are here. They were the shepherds of most of the One Direction stuff that you know. But there's one person who's present across every single song, and it's Amy Allen. Yeah. And to me, she's the second listed writer on every song.

This woman is a powerhouse of a songwriter. And I think, to me, the outstanding question about this album is going to be, is this a really interesting, fun personality grafted onto the greatest machine and pop music that's possible to assemble? Or is there more of her artistry that these writers and producers have just elicited through their own ability to coax that out of, you know, the inner sanctum of a human being. I think the live show of Sabrina is going to teach us a lot about that. But for her most important collaborator, to me, I think it's Amy Allen,

because this is as tightly and well-written a pop music album as I've heard in a very long time. I think that's right. I mean, unless we want to give it to certain actor from across the pond below the belt, shall we say. Collaborations of all kinds seem to have fueled this album. Yeah. Yeah.

She's very comfortable talking about collaborating. That's nice. The spirit of collaboration. But not collaboration. Do you remember the lover Sean Mendez remix? What? What? Do you remember the Sean Mendez remix of The Song Lover by Taylor Swift,

which I'm thinking of because when Taylor posted it, I don't know why this is like lodged in my brain, but she tweeted it and she was like, this isn't a collaboration. It's a collaboration. Sean. Yeah. Yeah, I mean...

It wasn't good. We don't need that. Look, the thing that I remember about watching Sean Mendez opened the 1989 tour as the first opener, right? was that guy's hands are the size of Shaquille O'Neal. He has enormous hands. What do you mean to suggest by this? It's all I wanted to say.

I have no problem with Sean Mendez. I don't feel that this album is asking me to take a stand on Sean Mendez. I think Sabrina is just like saying her piece and I support her in that. And I don't need to get involved further other than just thinking it's really fucking funny. I think that's a good point. here with like knives out for the guy. I do think the lover remix that he was on was pretty bad. But like, well, the start of the taste video has every knife you could possibly buy laid out on a bed. So she's there with knives out for the guy. But what do we have next? We, I think the,

this is the Easter egg, right? Gossip is back. We're talking about the carpet triangles. Carp and triangles. That's that that's it. It's the taste video. I mean, there's no hiding it. It's there for all to see. And I think you made a. a very interesting subtle point, which is that just like Sabrina, there's a lot of mess and there's a lot of attitude, but I guess it doesn't feel terribly cruel at the end of the day because she's found a way

to make it fun enough that you don't get so invested personally in the cause, like, I don't know, the smallest man who ever lived, that you feel personally unable to forgive. You're tied up... You're able to keep just enough space that it can be fun and not like personally offensive. The smallest man who ever lived insert complicates a little bit what I was going to say, but which I do think is generally true, which is that this isn't a relationship album.

This is a situation ship album. So what do we know? Taylor would tell you it was a relationship. Come on. Well, to her, it was. Let's leave her out of this for a second. because I don't necessarily disagree. Not possible for me.

But that's, and that's, and that has a lot to do with why we're all here. Nathan, remove your eyes. Okay. I think according to Sabrina, this is a situation ship album. And so therefore, what are we talking about? We're talking about, we're talking about fuck boy behavior. But what we're not talking about is, you know,

we're married with kids and you've ruined my life, right? Like, we're talking about manipulation, but we're not necessarily talking about, like, huge scale, deep promises and a life together destroyed and broken. And she told us coming in, she knew he was a dumbass. He can't even spell.

Right. And that's really, that's really real. That's really relatable. And, I mean, Right. She tells us this is what happens because it's slim picketins out there. Yes. But it does, it lowers the stakes, I think, in a nice way. Because nobody's life has been ruined here.

Yeah. That's right. Even if the feelings are very real. Like, it's okay. That's nice. For me, Peak Sabrina is this ability to break the fourth wall while combining it with her sense of humor. It just is her superpower. She does it on almost every song, and she just is, you know, she just is unstoppable in that way.

And it is an emotional space that is different than most listening of pop music. And I appreciate it. Because as you said, it means we can stay on the surface and just enjoy the bops, or you can actually peel the onion back a lot more and feast on the intelligence.

And that's the best kind of pop song, right? Like, that's the best version of this is where you can put it on for someone. And if it works for them, they're going to hear it within 35 seconds, right? They're going to be like, oh, yeah, this is good. This is fun. But you can also spend hours and hours and hours with an album like this and hear stuff or laugh at stuff that you didn't experience the first time. I think, generally speaking, constraints breed creativity.

And so as tongue in cheek, as short and sweet is, I actually value the work that they did on this album to just create a small set of good to great from start to finish pop songs. That there's not, you know, we're not going to get the long bed F1 trillion, you know, outros of which there probably are some really interesting ones. But that this crew got together, they assembled the League of Justice or the Avengers, and they said, let's go make a powerful pop album that reflects the personality of this really interesting, small but mighty woman.

Off we go, and when it's done, it's done. And to your point, we would have cut maybe one, but the rest of it, man, there are no skips on this thing. I also think, and you talked earlier, and I think that's true about how some of the insightfulness in the lyrical writing is it comes out of a space where we've all been listening

to a lot of Taylor Swift for the last however many years. I do think that that espresso to me felt like this real canary in the coal mine or whatever you want to say for what this summer was going to feel like

because for as ubiquitous as Taylor is, as huge as the heiress tour is, as huge as tortured poets was, the cultural tone of this summer has not taken its cues from Taylor Swift. It has taken them from Sabrina Carpenter. It has also taken

them from Charlie XEX. Chapel. And Chapel. All of whom are doing something that I think at least sonically is a departure from where Taylor has been at least her last

four albums. Yeah. And there's a, like, there's a spidey sense and an intelligence and a bravery, too. to go, you know, to not go with the Jack Antonoff song first, right? Like to say, no, this is how I want to go out in the world this summer is with a song like espresso.

And having been right about that, I just, I think is a real, I think it's a credit to her sort of reading the tea leaves of culture and, but also just like of trusting your instincts, right? And saying, I believe in this thing, even though it's a little bit. different from what we're used to. And then lo and behold, everybody listens to the song and goes, yes, like, I wanted someone to make something like this. And now she gives it to people. Yeah. I think Pete Subrina is just where she, I mean, it's hard for me to not pick the Juno line where she says, I'm so fucking horny. Me too. That, that's definitely on my list.

There's a lot, both in the, all of my best lyric contenders could also be, sort of peak Sabrina contenders, because as you said, it's just, it's, it's, it's the way that the persona intersects with her willingness to just be like, cheerfully horny. Right. Like, whatever it is, goofily, perhaps is the word. Also, confidently. Like, confidently, absolutely. There's no shame in this.

Absolutely. The other one that I really love, or two that I really love. one in coincidence the this week you're holding space for her tongue in your mouth Yeah

This week you're holding space for her tongue in your mouth I think it's so funny and I think it's clever because the holding space feels like Such a therapy term

Yeah A therapy term And you're waiting She's making fun of him But it's also like You're waiting for it to be this kind of like Therapy's line

About how everybody's Being their best selves But then it turns into her tongue in your mouth, which feels very Sabrina. And then the other one on the subject of tongues is when after the, he's making paintings with his tongue line and tased, where the backing vocals just go, la, la, la, la, la. That's your favorite lyric. It's so funny.

That's your favorite lyric on this album. Maybe it is. Honestly, maybe it is. La la la la is your favorite lyric. Yes. No, it's not, but it's, but you know what, it's funny. It's really good. It is funny. I, I, I went with the line you weren't, I mean, I, I think I'm so fucking horny and Juno was probably it, but the Slim Pickens line that you're not sure about. This boy doesn't even know the difference between their, T-H-E-R-E-R-N-H-E-R and they are, and yet he's naked in my room. I love it. I might do, mine right now, I really, I would have to give you a list to truly.

of 10, and we've talked about them. Your phone just... What a surprise. Your phone just died. Your car drove itself from L.A. to her thighs. Yeah. I laugh every time. She's done very, very well.

She and her co-writers have done very, very well on this album. I really... I adore this album. I mean, I'm still having... Like I said, I'm having to parse out. What's my surprise at just how good it is? Probably because I assumed

I'd had my fill of really great pop music in 2024. And where I think I'm falling, which is that this is just... just incredibly smart, tight, impeccably well-written pop music that blends indie rock and country and mainstream pop and that, like, again, most astonishing to me is that each of these women in 2024 have found their own lane. For Sabrina, it's fun and horny, but it's also deeply intelligent and powerful. And that's what's not to miss about her as an artist and why I'm excited about her as an artist, because I don't think, you know, just writing a fun, horny out,

It's kind of be like one-trick pony, right? But there is just this smartness to the way she writes and the way that this album does feel like a natural evolution from what we heard on emails I Can't Send. The nonsense outro. This song catchyer than taking part is I bet your house is where my other sock is. And all of the, you know, improvisation that happened on tour

sort of leads very naturally into this, doesn't it? And she's just so easy to root for. I'll say this, though, in terms of where she goes from here. Of course, I like you, I'm curious to see how in the future she and the people around her, the people she works with weave together this really appealing persona and personality with finding different ways to express that and, and, maybe a musical identity that's a little bit more developed than this album gives. Let's not forget the title here, right?

This is short and sweet. It was 35 minutes long. We had only one song to cut. I don't think she needs to go anywhere, right? No one should close themselves off to progression. But one of the cool things about showing that type of restraint, is I'm not, I'm not tired of this. Like, I would, I would take a second helping, you know.

She, I don't feel like I'm banging on the glass of, okay, Sabrina, cool, this has been great, but what's up next? First of all, I'm ready to just enjoy this era of hers, but I also don't feel like she has sort of exhausted the joyfulness and the exuberance of making music that sounds like this. packing it full of punchlines and letting people get to know her. I don't feel like... I feel like this album suggests a lot of different directions that she should go in, but I don't necessarily think it sets up a situation

where she has to immediately navigate a transition. No. I think the bar is very high for her now, though, after this album. I mean... Yeah. You know... Yeah, but it was very high for her going. into this album and she cleared it. I guess it was.

I mean, I think the rest of this album after espresso and please, please, please, could have been just okay. It could have had two great hits and the rest could have been just okay. I just did not expect a no-skip range of genre, ballads and bops. Just, I just didn't, I did not know that that's what we were getting. And now, in hindsight, when you look at the people that she worked with, you'd be like, yeah, I guess I get it, but even still, I mean, I don't know, you alluded to it earlier, but the vibe that I have from her is sort of a next generation, Katie Perry.

She's kissing girls. She's making faces at us. The aesthetic is as strong as the music. You want to watch her. And that's what is sort of exciting to me about her as an artist, is we know she's got the acting chops. We know that she is comfortable in communicating through that medium, and it sure feels like in these first three videos from this album,

that, again, you're going to have a co-pilot to the music that is visual. And in this age, when you couple that with how great she is online, I mean, even just today, she took a picture of herself in a Target shopping cart and posted that, holding up some of the, whatever, the additions that are at Target. And you got fans out there now climbing into Target shopping carts and taking pictures of themselves and she's reposting it. She just is native to social media, and she's able to slip herself into the cultural river at any moment along the banks of that river and integrate herself in a really seamless native way. And that makes her very powerful as an artist.

Question for you that I meant to bring up earlier, but you jogged my memory by saying Katie Perry. Did the end of Slim Pickens give you any question of if she was going to get a little bit? of a tag of the missed my gay awakening landing strangely for people. And since the Lord forgot my gay awakening then I'll just be here in the kitchen. I think that her overtness

has earned her permission to go there. I mean, that's probably right. I mean, it's probably right. It doesn't, you know, it's not really for me to be bothered, but it doesn't bother me personally. I will say the first time I heard that song, I think it's a clever line. I think they use the grinder, like, app opening noise as the little sound effect there when that happens, which is really funny if that's the case.

And since the Lord forgot my gay awakening. I will say, first time I heard that line, my thought was not like I have a problem with this. I will say before I went, that's pretty funny. I went, huh, wonder how that's going to go over. Well, so far she seems to have escaped it. Yeah, I think it's fine. Even if it didn't totally go over, I don't think it would be like an indictment of this record or of her or whatever.

I just curious how it hit you because the first time I heard the song, I was like, that's a funny line. I just wonder if people are going to hear it in a particular way. I gave this album of Mene. How do you think it stacks up with the other stuff that we heard this spring and summer? You know, I think Brat will go down as my... favorite album of Pop Girl Spring Summer

2024. But I think this will be a close second. Ahead of Rise and Fall Midwest Princess? Yeah. But those are the three, right? Yeah, I think the Billy record is

outstanding. It's a different thing. Yeah, it's a different thing. And notice that I said favorite, right? Yeah. Yeah, because they are different. And it's not sort of in either or and what do you take and what do you not. I mean, they're of everything. And which is better. Some things are just sort of, you know, they meet you where you are really effectively. And I want to listen to this. Yeah. I mean, I gave it an A. I can't wait to see her tackle this stuff live because that's what it's going to come down to for me. We're going to learn a lot about her artistry through the live performance of this. Can she command an arena? I think she can't, but if I have any unanswered questions about her, it's what we spoke to earlier. How much of the incredible polish that these songs have is a result of working with Amy Allen and Jack Antonoff and Julian Bonetta and John Ryan and how much of it is uniquely her own.

How does she mesh the bigness of some of these songs, you know, of a song like a story? that's like one of the biggest songs of the summer, if not the biggest song of the summer, with what's working so well for us about this album, which is a type of intimacy. It is the lifting of the fourth wall. It is winking at you in the audience, like you're talking about, you know,

like she's showing you a dick pick at brunch. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, have they grafted a really interesting personality onto the murderer's row of pop music creators or have they actually lifted up the artistry of a serious multi-hyphenate multifaceted creator? The live show, I think, is going to tell us that.

We know she's great on film. She just showed us how great she is on tape or on hard drive. How is she going to perform these live? I think that's going to tell us a ton. And I am so stuck between giving this record an A and an A-minus. I'm right on the edge of it because I'm still processing my surprise at how great it is.

I don't want to sort of be too euphoric and overstate what I think it is. I think the reason that I would give it an A-minus, and that's probably where I'm going to settle, is because I think there aren't moments of musical surprise like you and I talked about. I'm not sure there's something that is revolutionary. I think it is a important marker for where pop music is going. you can put a Alison Krauss song next to a Destiny's Child song, and it can sound fresh and current. That is very interesting in August of 2024.

But I'm not sure there is something groundbreaking here. On the other hand, there really are no skips through the first 11 songs of this album, and I enjoy the 12th. I'm not skipping through it when I'm done. So this is a really, I worry Nora sometimes when I go back and as we interact with some of the audience online, I worry that we're being, you know, that we've got too positive event. I think we do a decent job of being critical when we need to be about music.

And I'm just mindful that we've given out a lot of grades that have an A or an A minus next to them this year. And I just think going back and looking at them as I thought about this one, I think I stand by all those grades. we have gotten an abnormally excellent year in pop music at a time in which I wasn't sure that that was really possible. And it's super exciting to have all these artists who, as you just laid out earlier, Sabrina Carpenter has a lot of runway in front of her. She is a full generation younger than Taylor Swift. We have a lot more time to watch her, to watch Chapel, to watch, you know, the slate of artists that we've talked about this through the course of this journey. Olivia on and on and on evolve as artists. And I think they each have their own lane, which is what makes this such an exciting time in pop music.

It's cool to have some, it's cool to have some like 22-year-olds and 24-year-olds, right? Yeah. We have, you brought up some of the allegories to the 2000s, which was just such a time when so many 16, 17, 18, 19 year old women were just like thrown through a meat grinder. And a lot of that was really awful. And you just really feel for people being so young. And then we've had this era of like people who actually started in that decade

but have carried forward so long, like the tailors and the Beyonce's, who I think it is so cool to be able to watch women, especially in their, third, fourth, fifth, maybe, like, in those decades of life, be able to be at the center of culture and be, like, making really, really interesting work. Right. But there did feel like there was something a little bit missing where, like, yes, it's complicated that being a pop star has been such a young woman's game traditionally. Right.

But youth is exciting. Like, this is one of the ways where we learn where culture is going. and I gotta say that I feel like it's nice to have some just like, yes, have the children point us where we're going. Right, but it puts two groups of artists on notice. It puts the older generation of pop star. It's why Katie Perry just keeps running into the glass wall. She cannot find the door.

She just keeps bang, bang, bang it into the window. She cannot find the exit as much as she's trying so hard. it is why Miley Cyrus is not right now injecting herself totally into the mainstream. And when she does, she's very intelligently doing things like, as we spoke about, the Disney icon thing that Chapel Rhone gave the intro to, to try to connect her with that generation. But it also puts an enormous burden on the pop guys who are sitting out. It's cute that Harry Stiles is in the box watching Nile Horan's show right now.

But, man, Harry, your last album won the Grammy for Album of the Year. Right. And there are eight women who have set the bar higher than that album since you went away. He's got some real work to do. Well, you've been out wearing sweaters. Yep. The weekend is got to think. And I think that, you know, to a certain extent, the reason that the Noah Kans and the reason that the Zach Bryans of the world have gained some traction is because they're kind of the male equivalent.

of what these female artists are doing, which is forget the genre of music. They're speaking their truth. They're injecting their personality. They're talking about sex and love and failure and all these things in a very relatable way. Well, in a very relatable way. And one of the things that you and I have laughed a little bit about on this pod

is we're still not exactly sure who Harry Styles is. Right? And what's the movie line that you always go to? A movie of a movie or whatever. Like the movie feels like a movie. There it is. And so is, is Harry Styles, is Sean Mendez, is the weekend, is, is, like, are these guys going to take the cues that these women have laid down and said, you have to put more of yourself into the music? You have to be, willing to take a risk in order for this next generation, the youth, to really connect with you and to believe you. And you can do it in all kinds of sort of musical, creative ways. But the content, the lyrical content and the way that you present yourself more than ever has to be believable and authentic in something that people can connect to. And Harry made an album that we love. We adore Harry. That's not the kind of artist that he has been historically. And if I'm in the studio with

Harry right now. I am pushing him extremely hard to learn a little bit more about who he is so that he can then tell that to the fan. I think it's going to be a requirement of large monocultural creators in the future. And Sabrina has joined that group of people

who could break out in that next generation because she's found a way to thread the needle great pop music, but also put enough of herself in that we believe it. I hadn't thought about the movie feels like a movie in a little bit, and that just made my day. So thank you for that, Nathan. You're welcome. I think we should end it there. I think that's a great capper. It's been a great

summer. We're not going anywhere, but I do feel like we should acknowledge that it's just been this crazy run, and it's been so much fun to cover it. Do we get next week off, Nora? I'm going on vacation, so we're going to be off. Outstanding. Bye. This has been every single album. I'm Nora Pincey Addy. He's Nathan Hubbard. As all. always thank you to the fabulous, the one, the only. Kaia McMullen for producing this episode. We will not talk to you next week, but we will talk to you soon. Bye-bye.