Every Single Album - 'So Close to What' | Every Single Album: Tate McRae

Episode Date: February 27, 2025

Nora and Nathan try to figure out whether Tate McRae is so close to stardom on her new album, 'So Close to What.' They talk about the all-star production team behind this album, which included Ryan Tedder and Amy Allen (1:00); some of their favorite songs on this record, including "Greenlight" and "Sports Car" (22:55); and what sets McRae apart from other pop stars at the moment (32:21). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi everyone, it's Amy Poehler, and I'm launching a new podcast called Good Hang. In preparation for that, I asked some of my friends to send in some videos and give me some advice. Just be yourself, and the guests will come. Just, if you're going to do this, really do it. Commit to it. Don't be the celebrity that this is their like sixth thing they're doing. Have a good podcast. Keep your approval rating. I hear you got a new gig, girl. That's so fabulous. So glad you're working. It's a part for me. I love true crime and cooking podcast. Is there any way you could combine the two?

So you're doing a podcast, that is awesome. Would you happen to know my blood type? I've got to put it down on this form. Hey, I got an email from my agent saying I need to record a video for you for charity, but then I clicked the link and it took me to a GoFundMe page. So I kind of have a bad feeling about this. Well, everyone has an opinion and a podcast. So, join me for good hang.

It's rough out there. We're just trying to lighten it up a little. Oh, and welcome to every single album. I'm Nora Prynciotti. And as always, I am joined by the fabulous Nathan Hubbard. We are this week talking about Tate McCray and so close to what? We're going to break it out all down. Nathan, are you ready to figure out with me exactly what Tate McCray is so close to?

What? All right, let's go. So this album came out. We're recording this on a Tuesday. It came out last Friday. We had heard some of the singles before it dropped. But Nathan, tell me about your last 72 hours with Tate McCray. How'd you listen?

How'd you digest? How are you feeling? Do we have to do this? Yes. Yes, we have to. We are. And don't start with me. I mean, look.

look, I really like Tate McCray. She seems like a lovely human being. And I wanted to really... I did find a few little gems on this album. That's the truth. And I tried to come in with as open a mind as possible. But I think that this album for me suffered from the same exact problem

that we identified with Dua. and that we, I think correctly prognosticated was an indication of a problem, which is that when you just keep releasing singles, hoping that one of them is going to land, it kind of portends an issue with how it's being received overall. Now, this is a very young woman who has had a ton of success, who is an excellent dancer, who fits the part from an image perspective, as much as you could put. possibly want. And so it's been about, hey, can we find the songs? And in that room, you had Ryan Tetter, great songwriter, Amy Allen, great songwriter. You had a whole Julia Michaels, by the way.

So there was a cast and crew involved in this effort. And, you know, when I finished the album on Spotify, the dirty little secret that's not really a secret, it's the open secret, is that labels can pay to be the next song that you hear when somebody finishes listening to a piece of content. And my assumption is you can target that at a particular audience, but that what you're effectively doing is,

you know, I don't know, when the new Sabrina Carpenter deluxe album stops playing, what comes next? And what came next for me, every time I finished listening to so close to what was the new Selena Gomez and Gracie Abrams single

Call me When You Break Up which to my ears is two minutes of pure pop bliss I think it's excellent it's a total worm in my ear in a way that none of the 15 songs that I had heard prior to that really stood out and really resonated.

And I don't want to sound the death knell for this album and certainly not for the career of an artist who, I think Tate McCray is great. And you identified her as being one of your potential big ones in the future. But there just was something about this album that just was fine and not enough to grab me and have me say, bang, I've seen over the last year, a lane for every one of these pop stars. That's Charlie's Lane. That's Chapel's Lane. That's

Sabrina's Lane. I get it. I see where they are and why they're there. This one left me feeling a lot like the album title, which is so close, but to what? Yeah, I do. It's, so there's a lot there. And I do think that as we go through this, we'll get at all of the angles of everything you just said. If you'll allow me, let me pause. it that this album is doing well. And let's unpack that. So in the first day that this album was out, it did 32 million streams on Spotify. That's two times what her last album think later did. It's not immense, but that's pretty healthy. She also, on March 18th, she's going to start her tour. That's going to go through November. It's going to

go over the summer. It's an arena tour that's sold out in three days and they just added more dates. This is not necessarily me arguing, you know, I am not making a people bought concert tickets and therefore the album is good argument here. No, I'd like to see you live. But I do think that there is this question hanging over this album and hanging over Tate McCray right now, which is sort of like, is this going to work? What is this?

what is the point of any of this? Did anybody really ask for this? And who is the audience for this? And I'll talk about how the album hit me in a little bit because it hit me differently than you. But when I heard it first, my gut was that this isn't what she needs for this to really work.

Yeah. But I think if you dig into how this is actually playing out, I would say that that is objectively working. Like, she's getting what she needs from this for it to be a meaningful step forward in her career. Agree? I think that Tate McCrae is going to be bigger as a star after this album than she was before it, for sure.

I just think she has one of the best managers on the planet in Jeffrey Azov. I think she's got a label that is fully lined up behind it. I think she absolutely looks and dances the part. And I just think that just like that Dua album, the difference being that, you know, Dua had a bunch of catalog hits that were there that can carry the show.

I think Tate, you broke me first as an awesome song. Like, I was deeply moved by that song. I got it. And I just was hoping that this one would have something that really went above and beyond and helped me, as you just said, feel that she, you know, the knock on Tate has been like industry plant stuff, right? Yeah, which is in her case, I think, code for, as you said, you know, Jeffrey is officer manager and is clearly working really hard for her.

But Tate McCray is a random Canadian girl. Yeah. I mean, look, you remember. A few weeks ago, how excited you were for the Backstreet Boys at S&L 50. I was excited for other people's excitement. Okay, but do you remember Nick Lachey's shitty boy band 98 degrees? Yeah, kind of. Honestly, not really in real time.

Yeah. But, yeah, I know that 98 degrees is a band. It launched the career of Nick Lachet. You know, it helped Jessica Simpson and her pop stardom. But at the end of the day, it's the Backstreet Boys and it's Timberlake and InSink that are the sort of voices and artists from that generation of 2000s pop. And this is a 98 degrees record, not a Britney Spears record or the thing that was going to take her to the next level is how I feel about it. When you say that, are you saying that qualitatively you don't think that these are well-constructed something? because I feel really differently.

I think these are pretty expertly constructed songs, a lot of which are pretty good, and there is a sense that there is something missing at the center of them, that you don't quite know who they're coming from, and therefore some of them, some of them, not all of them, land hollow because of that. It's a fair point, but I would say

the songs themselves so frequently feel like I'm just being hit over the head by a phrase and a hook that is not transcendent. It feels like her vocal range sits in the middle few keys on the piano. Go listen to that gracey part on Call Me When You Break Up and listen to what she does vocally. Okay, for the record, I think that song is fine with the run. But there is not a moment of interesting vocal acrobatic on this record that I that I heard. See, now I'm coming off so much more negative

than I actually feel because I'm disappointed in this album because I wanted it to be great because I think all of the other things are there for Tate. And I just think that whatever came out of that studio was okay and not great. And I'm so interested now to hear your thoughts on these songs because I came away from the songs feeling like, melodically, they just didn't hit that level of pulling me into belief. And that's at the end of the

day, what I want from pop right now. And what I think the most audiences really need to start tattooing the names and faces of artists on their bodies, the way they do, Billy, the way they are, chapel, the way they do, Taylor. You have to have that level of connection and belief. And it starts with, like has there ever been a bigger discrepancy between a singing voice and an actual voice? It's so hard to get into this character that I'm hearing sing. You said something that you were finding

that you were struggling to find phrases that you could really think were transcendent. I am finding it difficult to find phrases where I know what the words are. Yeah. Like who speaks like this? Well, I mean, Ariana Grande for her first three albums. Like, people have done this before. Mumble singing is not exactly a Tate McCray invention.

Yeah, it just, it doesn't feel real to me. And so, you know, the, I mean, I understand the Kid LaRoy collab, but when you go back and look through her catalog, there's some collabs that just feel forced. And even, even on this song, the like, Flow Millie, like, Why? Oh, okay. Let's talk about this a little bit because I feel differently about the collabs. I actually thought both of those were pretty good.

I thought I know love was pretty good. I understand it, but like what is her connection to Flo Millie? Why is that the fourth song on the record? It's got a great beat. Yeah. That's a great beat. That is definitely one of the first. of the one of the songs where I had the most like yeah I have no clue what the words to this song are but it's

got a great beat and I think the flow milly part helps because you can understand what flow milly is saying correct so flow milly pops up and it's like ah the english language it's back correct but I thought that in both cases and now obviously the kidleroy has a um you know probably wants to do right by do right by his lady I said you my side I don't mind right I don't But I thought that in both cases with the features, it sounded like the other person was trying hard. Yeah. It sounded like they'd shown up for her.

It sounded like they were happy to be there and happy to be on the track. And I do feel like that, you can hear that and it gives something. He should be happy to be in the orbit of Tate McCray. I think he's kind of good. He can do that like Yelpy kind of pop rock, like machine gun Kelly thing really well.

If I hear one more white rapper go, it's crazy on a track. Get the fuck out. It's so crazy. We started our friends how you end up here next to me. Honestly, this shit is crazy. I do, but that's because...

Come on, man. I'm not going to call the hooks in that song transcendent, which was the word that you used. But that's one where I do feel like... And Ryan Tetter is a person whose work I kind of go back and forth. on. But he, the podcast switched on pop, which, which is a great, like, they break down songwriting and songs. They were getting into some of his process and how something that he's talked a lot

about in terms of how he works is to start sort of with one hook and then try to, like, layer them on top of each other and do more and more and more and build from there. And I felt like that's a song where you can hear that just because the hooks and the melodies are a little. bit juicier than they are on a lot of this album. I do think part of that is because somewhere somebody made a decision that we were going to do a lot of like anti-choruses where you feel like you're building to something and then it drops out on purpose. Ryan Teter wrote Halo.

Yeah. She's not Beyonce. None of these songs are Halo. Well, ain't that the truth. But I liked that. I liked both of the collapse. And I do think, look, has the your love is my drug thing, which is what they're doing on I know love been done before? Yes, absolutely.

We've heard that construction. But it's kind of juicy. It wormed its way into my head in a way where I had an interesting experience listening through the first, like the first full-time through. Because I had felt like all of the singles for this album. I liked them, but they all left me a little bit cold. And none of them really sounded like a hit. Again, they're streaming pretty well.

None of them made like huge chart impact, but they're streaming pretty well. Then I listened to the album. And suddenly like two hands sounded like a hit to me. Not a massive one, but an earworm. Okay. A song that I was like, oh, I'll still put this on once in a while three years from now and be happy to do that. And that's not how I felt about it when it first came out. I feel that way a little bit about sports car.

Yeah. But I don't know. I mean, it's the line and revolving door, which by the way, it seems to me. me, revolving door is actually streaming the most at the moment. Like, people are gravitating to that one. So it's great. But, like, in that... I don't care for that song at all. Well, the line is, I confess I'm not that versatile. And that kind of sums up the Tate McCrae experience on this record for me. I think she actually is and could be more versal.

I don't believe that her vocal range is constrained to what we hear on this record. And I think a lot of the melodies themselves could have been played by a synthesizer. In other words, she's not using her voice as an instrument. I don't agree with that. I think that some of the flows

are really cool. The way that if you listen to like, it's okay, I'm okay. Yeah. Which has that anti-chorus thing, so it doesn't have a moment where you're like, oh, I'm going to remember how Tate McCrae is saying that hook forever, you know? It's not, that's not a song that's doing that.

But if you listen to just how she gets her mouth around the syllables almost. What? Whoa. I think it sounds cool. I think she has, when you can kind of hear what she's saying, it certainly dips into mumble territory a fair bit. that she has she has a way of just singing words and sounds

that I think is It's okay, I'm okay, it's okay, I'm okay. It's thoughtful. It's a flow. Okay. And I do think the more you listen to it, it, you know, again, everything's relative here.

I am in no way going to say that like in three months from now, I'm going to be like, these are all iconic songs. Like, this is the best album ever made. That's not on the table here. But just as we try to figure out what she's meant to be doing, I did find myself going, okay, the vocal range that you hear is not huge. But there's a thing in the delivery that I do find very interesting.

Okay. And that I think is cool. I mean, it's okay. Amokai starts with some serious in sync bye, bye, bye vibes for me. But it devolves isn't the right word. I think the way that you just talked about Tedder's songwriting process is right. I just feel like there's this repetitive bludgeoning with hooks and lines that aren't unique and aren't different.

It feels like these are small ideas and not full songs in a lot of cases. but maybe I just am missing it and that as you are repeatedly bludgeoned with those hooks, that they're going to make their way into your ear. It feels purposeful in that regard, like that they're trying to land the hook in your ear and hold you with lines that are, I don't know. I mean, there is a lot more 2000s-era pop in this music than 2020-era pop. That's not bad. In the songwriting, yes.

In the production, yes. Yeah. But then from her, it's something different. And again, she's not, you know, she was not, Tate McCray, the pop stars of Tate McCray's childhood were not in sync in 98 degrees.

They were not the Pussycat dolls. Like, those are not her references. Those are her producers' references. But then her references are Lana Del Rey, Ariana Grande, Selena Gomez, like, Halsey. And I think you hear a lot. It sounds like Taylor Swift, too, by the way. I think there's a direct Taylor reference on this album.

Do you want to save it or do you want to tell me now? Well, I mean, I'll tell you now. It's in green light. She talks about Band-Aids and Bullet Holes. She says, I don't think Taylor invented that phrase. No, but she says, I can't unhear shit I've been told. Band-Aids and bullet holes don't go. I can't unhear shit I've been told.

And it's about the rewrite. And by the way, there's some major 1975 somebody else keys on this song, which is why this is actually my favorite song in the album. Spoiler alert. Wow. Well, I was going to ask you what you felt like the best song in this album is.

I think it's green light. I do. but I'm weird. So I just, I like that song the most. I connected with it. I thought that melody-wise, it's okay. It's got some, it has some connection for me. I enjoyed it.

What did you like about it? I think just melodically, it was more interesting to me. And I felt less, and look, lyrically, I also thought it was a little more interesting. but it felt as I said I just felt like there was so much repetition in some of the

some of the early songs on the record Two Hands for sure sports car for sure it's okay I'm okay that it broke from the formula of the rest of the album and that felt a little bit fresh

nostalgia obviously also feels fresh I did not love that song I got to know know her better on that song. I'm fine that it was there, but in some ways it was reflective of the rest of the record, which is that the melodies themselves just didn't pull me in in that way to match with what I think was probably her most vulnerable sort of diaristic song on the record. So you and I are in agreement and in disagreement here, because my cuts, and I could make more than two, other than two hands, which in the track order is pretty late. Once you get to the

second half of the album, other than the singles, because it's okay, I'm okay, is also pretty late. A lot of the songs start to blend together for me, and I don't think that they add a whole lot. But where you and I are in both agreement and disagreement is that my two cuts, my first two cuts, are nostalgia and green light. Well, because you like the repetitive bludgeoning of hooks on your forehead. And that's fine. I wouldn't call it repetitive bludgeoning. That's not the terminology that I would use.

One part of it is that, you know, here we are talking about what this person is great at or what's not working. We haven't brought up the fact that Tate McCray isn't in. incredible dancer. She is an incredible dancer. I think I brought that up. And, okay. Already. Let's center that.

There are very few people in the current pop star ecosystem who are great, great dancers. We don't have one. Like, we don't, who is the active, like, big pop star right now who centers choreography? Yeah, I can tell you a lot about who it's not. Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, she's the, I think she is the most high profile working pop star who, for whom the choreography and the hairography and the, you know, all of that that design is a huge part of the proposition. She's got all the visual elements of a pop star. That's for sure. And I think that is, that's compelling.

to me and I want to root for it because it's something that we don't have. I do think it's a tough question of if you're dealing in a medium of, okay, well, people are going to go see the tour and they're going to see her on stage and they're going to see her dance and maybe certain things click in that context. But other than that, you have someone who maybe even first and foremost is a dancer, but you're putting out an album that you have to get people to listen to. And so how do you communicate that? And so in part why I think the dance songs work for me is I do have this kernel of all the pieces fit together because she is a dancer. She is going to do the music video. She is going to go there. Now, how far that gets you when you're just putting in your headphones

and you don't have any of that, I do think it's a limitation. But it's in some ways a very interesting experiment because we just don't have anyone else like that right now. And I do feel like, I don't want to appoint myself like the defender of Tate McCray here. Well, you have already done that, Miss Preciati. But I do think that it's interesting that she's getting a little bit of a tag of like, you know, doesn't have a lane. There's nothing that makes her stand out. There's a very obvious thing that she is very good at that historically has been a part of the package here. that most of the, you know, main pop girls right now don't do or don't do in a similar way. Yeah.

But is that somewhat reflective of the audience and what they're receptive to in this moment and what they're actually demanding? I don't know. I mean... It might be. It might be, but that doesn't mean that I have to agree, right? That doesn't mean that that's a commercial thing. That's not a qualitative thing. Do you have any other better?

Best song contenders other than Greenlight. That was all you liked. I kind of like sports car, the more that I listened to it, like I said. Like, I kind of get it. But it's got major Nelly Furtado promiscuous girl vibes. Yeah, I mean, look, Nellie Furtado, the specter of Nellie Furtado looms large over quite a bit of this album. Canadian pop girls unite. And there are threads of it everywhere.

It's car is also a little bit funny and there's so little personality in this that I think that's worming its way into me as well of like the the weak and uh-uh is so silly that it widens the emotional spectrum a little bit. I mean, on the song like I do,

you know the part where it's like the spoken word part where she's like, fuck you, where she like makes you know, the stuff's like. Did you buy that? Was that humorous for you? No, it's, no. I'm glad you brought it up because it's a little bit similar to, um, the end of the revolving door music video where it's all awesome choreo and like the hair is going everywhere and it's really, really cool. And then at the very end, they stopped dancing and, and she falls to the floor and breaks down in tears and sobs.

Right. And then she gets up and starts the choreography again. And, you know, it's a metaphor for the revolving door of life is a pop star or whatever. I don't really know what it's supposed to be about. No, it's a revolving door of her going back and forth with this person. She just keeps getting poorly treated or whatever and she keeps going back. Well, but the person is maybe the industry. Yeah, I don't know.

I don't know. I mean, there's some naughty words. in that song. Yeah. The other thing that we should talk about is a lot of these songs are just about having sex. Yeah, they are.

And like, that's what I was going to say about this is that it just, I feel like, you know, a purple lace bra where she's talking about giving you head, like so desperate are,

is the label, or maybe these songwriters around her to like push her forward as this temptress. I was saying, I was screaming. I've been going all nights and my door spitting.

But, like, Sabrina Carpenter is standing right there in the corner with a little bit more wit, slightly less crass, but in a creative way, with a sort of more intelligent raunch and better hooks. Like, I don't feel like this lands in part because somebody's, you talked about lanes, somebody's already moved into that lane a little bit. And I just don't know if there is a spot. Like, again, I think she would have been a really big pop star with the dance in 2004. And I just don't know if in 2005, and I just don't know if in 2025, the audience values the same things.

It's a little bit like the tweet that I saw that people retweeted. and it's a little bit mean, but I don't feel badly repeating it because this is an enormously talented woman who's got a career and she's, again, she's going to be better off after this record than she was before. We're just always pushing our pop girls for greatness

and we want that from them. It's okay if you didn't like the album. You can just say that you didn't like it. But somebody said, you know, she is serving, but the problem is there's nothing on the plate. It definitely has that. feel to it. I think there's,

see, you and I, now, and you and I always disagree on this. I think the tendency

of the current pop star cohort to try really hard and put a huge amount of weight on intellectualizing

their music, I would turn the dial back a little bit. So you think Duo got caught in between?

because it wasn't vulnerable enough, but she tried that. And she told everybody it was super vulnerable. Yeah. And then it just wasn't. Like, if I think that it, again, I like that album. But I think that that album was not destined to be future nostalgia to,

under any circumstances. But I do feel that that album was hurt in its marketing. Because it was presented as, you know, Dula Lipa's quasi-spiritual, statement on radical optimism. And then, like, those are fun songs for vacation. Yeah. And I think she should have just told us

that they were fun songs for vacation. Yeah, that she likes vacation. And it would have been a little bit better received. I think you're right. And I think that there's maybe a parallel here, too, because I, one thing that I come away from this, not sure how to answer, is what does Tate McCray want to do?

Yeah. Because I wonder, based on, you know, the thing she does in the revolving door, the breakdown at the end, based on the fact that nostalgia made it onto this album, and based on what her first two albums sounded more like in general, which was a little bit more confessional, a little bit more in line with the post-halsy, post-billy, you know, contemporary of Gracie Abrams singer-songwritery style of pop music. I wonder if that's what she wants to do. But it,

one, is a harder fit with the dancing. And two is maybe going out of vogue a little bit and is just so crowded. And maybe she doesn't have the chops for it. You know, like I thought nostalgia

was a pretty oofy song where it's like her dad went to law school but he wanted to be an architect. Daddy went to law school and could have been an architect. I don't know what I'm supposed to think about that. Like, that's fine. People change careers.

You hate ballots generally, though. You and I always argue about that. But listen, we agree on that one. Nor, she's also, I think she's only 22. Yeah. And so, you know, or I guess she'll be 22 in July. So she's 21. Like, it's okay for her to be still finding her way as an artist.

But that's what this feels like to me. This feels like they are taking an enormously talented dancer who has some musical, and I think some songwriting chops, based on her involvement in a number of the things that she's put out, who has the look and has the storking. presence. She has all the visual elements of a pop star, and they're trying to turn her into one where her primary medium is music. And it's a journey and a process, and they put a lot of good people around her. And again, I think the output is mid, and it becomes obviously mid because all

the other parts of her are not mid. Like, she's a great dancer. She's a great visual artist. she's beautiful. She's her in-person personality, at least the public part that we see, seems very wonderfully Canadian and down-to-earth and relatable. She's accessible. And so what she needed was that song,

and I just don't think it's on here. Do you think it's on here? What is the best song on this album? I think sports car is the best. Yeah. It's either that or it's that or two hands. It's okay. I'm okay has sort of fallen away for me.

I don't think it's bad, but it's fallen away for me. But those two songs I do have managed to get their claws into me. I can't believe you think, I cannot believe that you think, call me when you break up is fine. This is you trying to hold on to what you talked about last week. Your skepticism about this. No, oh my gosh. It's 800 million miles better than the Koso bathtub. song.

Yeah. But I'm just, I'm not sure that I think qualitatively there's all that, that song and these songs are doing anything different. God. Love it. Call me when you break up is a fucking bob. It's good. I like it too.

I think these are also bops. I think they're background music for her dance routine. Are you okay? Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, that's fine. I mean, that's kind of what you just articulated, is that maybe she didn't break out elsewhere

because they're harder to do with the dancing. But that makes her primary medium of art, the dance, and the music is maybe secondary, and they're trying to craft staging around the dance. Yeah, I think that's probably, I think that's probably some of what's going on. I mean, do you think her collaborators failed her? Maybe that's part of what I'm saying,

is I think that look, I know nothing about the process. And so I would be interested to know more about the process and how much of it was, hey, we've got this come and sing and here's how we think about it and let's inject some of you into these songs,

but most of them are largely baked. You're putting on a few sprinkles, but the frosting and the cupcake is already baked. But I think that there was, I think there's always more to do out of this stuff. I mean, I think that the combination of producers and writers, of which there is some overlap on the Sabrina Carpenter record, took her to the next level.

And I also think that Sabrina had a very clear has, to this day, a very clear vision of what kind of musical artist she is. She has a real creative direction that taps her into the classics, the Goldie Hawn tribute at the Grammys, the stuff on SNL, the, you know, all of those live performances are very purposeful. And the art itself is a reflection that captures the humor that she foundationally has, right? That there's a little bit of self-deprecation. There's, yes, the smart horniness that we always talk about. You have a sense of a person being at the center of it, which I think is very missing here. Yes. And that's what's missing in this music and why I think the the darts that are getting thrown around industry plant or, you know, the sort of main pop girl stuff is, again,

she's going to weather it fine because she's going to be all right. But, yeah, I think at foundationally, I think the writers and producers, this is not Julian Benetto with Amy Allen and Jack Antonoff. This is Ryan Teter with Amy Allen and a few others, in Julian Michaels. And I think to your point, like, there's something here. It's not dog shit.

Like, don't get me wrong. It's not. I think the reviews are kind of all over the board. But I don't... And I think people are... Like, I do want to push back a little bit on if we're giving the impression here that this has landed as a flop.

No. Whatever it's landed with us, I think enough people are listening to this album that it qualifies as a medium success. I just would say, it feels like the kind of pop that moms take their daughters to at the mall because it's something

to do, and it's a spectacle, as opposed to daughters begging their moms to pay the $55 for the ticket because I just have to go. And please wait in the parking lot while I go inside and, you know, watch this, this bit of culture that I have to have. It feels more push than pull to me. So where would you go from here? What would you do for a next album? I think she's just got to keep writing. And it sounds like this album, I mean, she started working on this record pretty quickly after she put her last one out. And so if nothing else, she's prolific and willing to do the work. That is the thing that I love about Tate McCray right now. I see her willing to do the work. She's out there in the same way that Gaga is showing up and she's doing the TV performances with

weird Roger Goodell and Michael Strayhan and Tom Brady and goofy shirts. Like, is she under attack? zombies? Are they all going to eat her? Is this part of the Abercadabra video? What's going on? But like, she's doing the fucking work. I don't think anyone was confused about whether or not they were going to attack her. It looked like a scary movie. During the Super Bowl

tribute performance. It looked like a scary movie to me. But Tate is willing to do the work. So that is raw clay that is awesome. And she is not raw clay. Like she's molded in some ways, but she's still finding her way. And it is reflected in the art.

Like, does she know who she is? Does she know the kind of artist that she wants to be? This is a challenge that every artist goes through. And the superstars sometimes take time. Don't forget, Sabrina's five years older than Tate McCray. Like, Taylor is well beyond. So she's, she is Billy's age, which when you compare the two, Billy knows exactly who she is.

Billy's also been famous and a star since she was 13 and I think has had artistic vision and is a fucking unicorn. So that's fine. I'm not trying to like sort of compare and play off. But I just would say the development of Tate McRae can and clearly will take longer if her destiny is being a superstar at the level of the women that we've celebrated over the last two years at the Grammys. And so what I would say is keep writing.

Try some new producers. Try some new writers. Let's keep pushing her to articulate who she is outside of a really cute, fun Canadian who dances extraordinarily well. and has a voice, but one that isn't going to bring the room down, but is certainly going to be sufficient and certainly is going to sell out arenas.

We're working with great ingredients. Would you have her... Is there anything? Is it maybe it's green light that you would have her lean into? Do you think, as she keeps writing, it's keep working in the vein of sports car? Or is it keep maybe...

try to get back to more of that, you broke me first, which was a little bit more personal. Yeah, I just don't see right now the non-personal pop landing with a lot of people. And my argument would be, and I think you're right, that this record, again, is going to do better

than I'm probably talking like it is. Like, it's going to be received and there's going to be some streaming, but this is not going to be a number one record for particularly long a period of time at all, right? It's going to be... It's not going to... It is no...

Die with a smile, Nora, as you and I have begrudgingly had to accept is stuff that we didn't love, but is crushing it, right? But I think overall, the framing of Tate McCray is what I challenge. I just challenge.

the branding, right? Purple lace bra, sports car, dear God, blood on my hands. Like, there's a lot of sex. The visuals are, she's naked running around. Okay, are we pulling that from her or are they pushing it towards us? And can we understand a little bit more about the person because that will make the rest of the visual art at some point easier to adopt? I just don't see the pop star right now being received without a little bit of a little bit more. bit more vulnerability might not be the right word because I don't mean like Taylor-esque, oh, these are all my feelings, but we just, we know she likes hockey. You want to know who she is. You want to, you know she likes hockey. Yeah, we know she's, she's comfortable in her skin.

We know she's out there, but like, who is this person? Yeah. No, I think, and I do think because she in interviews, she talks a lot about the songwriting. She talks a lot about, she talks a lot about, she talks a lot about feelings in a way that makes me wonder if the non-dancy songs are a little bit more where her heart is, but make less sense for her. And I will say that's certainly not what I gravitate to from her. So I wonder if those things are a little bit in tension. But, and I think, I don't think Sabrina is a blueprint in this way, but I think she's an interesting sort of data point to consider in that I do think she's got to find a way to show her personality to the extent that people can feel like these songs are coming from a person that they have a sense of. Because I have gone back and forth 15 times on whether or not. I think that lyric on purple lace bra about giving you head is the only time you think I've got depth

is the best or worst lyric on this album. Because the first time I heard it, I was like, oh, Jesus. And then the fourth time I heard it, I thought, if Sabrina Carpenter saying that, we would think it was hilarious. Yeah. Because we would know that she was tongue in cheek. I think it's fair to say that we know that Tate isn't. I think we just don't know.

And the problem is that we don't know. And when you don't know, it's very hard to get if it's a joke. Get what she's trying to say, especially when you can't understand half of it. And I think I feel a little different from you on the collaborators. I think they did a pretty good job. I think these are pretty sturdy songs for the most part. But I just wanted to understand the interaction and the relationship. Like, did they know each other beforehand?

Was this just like RCA trying to pair up two artists or like what? I think it was RCA trying to pair up. Sorry, are you talking about with the producers? No, I mean, the actual like, like, I mean, I know why Kid LaRoy featured. Yeah. But the actual artists, you know, that she's collaborated with, not just on this album, but through time. It just feels like more of a like hip-hop strategy, which is let me build audience. then, hey, there's a purpose to this person being a part of the art.

But is that in and of itself a problem? Because I think, first of all, I think she has a little bit of the hip hop. I think she's fluent in that and you can hear it in some of the flows and in some of the deliveries. So I don't think it's a bad fit. But I also think that you're right. I think they're trying to build audience. I think you can, it is pretty, and I think this is part of what people are bumping up against to some extent. It is very obvious that RCA is like,

we want Tate McCray to hit and we're going to try to throw everything at the wall and see if we can make it happen. That's the push. That's the push instead of the pull. Yeah. No, it's totally there. And audiences can sniff that out. And I think it's very easy to sniff that out on this album. I think it's very easy to sniff it out on, you know,

you see in the first still of the revolving door music video, you can see the posters that are up of her Neutrogena commercial. Like, it's got the scent. What I am asking you to do is push all of that aside and ask yourself if you think that there are good bones on this album. Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play is what you're asking me? A little bit, a little bit. But I'm still asking you to do it.

Yeah. No, I found these to be largely unremarkable. pop songs. But it also, that comes from a major Nathan bias that anyone who listens to this podcast knows. Like, I am a sucker for melody. I am a sucker for real lyrical hooks that are clever, that are plays on words that are thoughtful. And there is a style of pop music that doesn't resonate as deeply with me. And that's what I'm pushing back on on this album. I just It just felt like being bludgeoned by fairly redundant hooks that don't do much melodically. And that's what lost me.

That's why I couldn't get deep into the songs themselves. I think they're not songs that are asking you to get deep into them. Did you give it a grade? We're already at the grade. Nobody cares what I think at this point because they're all, I want to know what you thought of this album. Like, is, do you give this a B plus? Yeah, that's exactly what I give it. Holy, wow.

That's medium successful. Okay. I think it's going to be polarizing. I think the second half of it I can pretty much do without, other than she sprinkles the two zingles in there. But like I do. You don't want to know me. You just want to do it.

No, I'm not in love. Means I care. No, I'm not in love. Like, I don't ever need to listen to the songs again. I thought some of those were okay. Well, because it's a more, it's like the back half is a little bit more Nathan and the front half is a little bit more, Nora. Means I care is okay. I think it's, I think that's like the first qualified hook of the album when you get to Means I care.

No. The first. like true hook of the album is Sines. Sines has a real chorus. They ham it up and do the key change at the end. That was an attempt. The key change made me so angry. If you love me.

I liked the key change. Because you're trying to convince me, like, Signs is all of it. That's where her melody, like the melody and the vocal range are all contained to just a few notes in the center of the keyboard. And they, I am not fooling.

by that upward key change. She still is not using her voice as an instrument in the way that I believe somebody could have pushed her to do so. I'm not asking for an Ariana run here, Nora. I'm just asking for something that is stand out about her voice. Like, what stands out for you besides the mumble? Well, but the stand out is the problem, right? Very little about it stands out.

I think if you listen to these songs five times, you're going to find, as I did, little line deliveries that just sound cool, they sound subtle, they sound a little juicy, but you're not going to find things that stand out. You're not going to find anything transcendent.

There's nothing transcendent on this album. I think you're trying to convince me that because she's capable of putting her entire calf behind her head while standing on the other leg. It's cool to do that. No one else can do that. I mean, pink is the closest athlete pop star that we have maybe.

Yeah, but pink is not, I love pink. Pink is not in the heart of her career right now. No, I know, but I'm just making the comparison. And all I'm saying is that pink had songs that fucking rule. I think pink is maybe one of the most underappreciated artists of her generation. I too love pink. But I don't, I think. that Tate has some work to do

to get there. And, but, you know, here's what we're going to do, Nora. We're going to go watch her live. And we're going to see how she sells this. And what the spectacle is like. And whether it is just an inflated mall act where moms are bringing daughters

because they need something to do, or whether there is the undercurrent of she's connecting and resonating with some young girls in ways that, you know, an old piece of shit like me wouldn't necessarily even see or no. So I want to give it, I want to give it the full, you know, the full openness and open-minded before I close the book. I just think this is not an album that I'm going to come back to. Now, Nora, I have been wrong many millions of times, as you know, painfully so. I did not at the outset get the Gracie record.

I think with hindsight, it is still fair to say that there are very few artists who have grown as much in a short period of time as Gracie has around her performance in particular of that record and her ability to sing. She's just gotten better from the first time that she played with Taylor to the last time she played with Taylor. She got markedly better at what she did. But like, you know, I heard the music and I understood the ways in which it really. resonated with my daughters, for example, and I got that she was speaking in a way that a generation speaks. But melodically, it just didn't do as much for me. And I felt like it ran a bit together. It felt like the second half of tortured poets a little bit to me. No surprise that Aaron was producing it. But I missed that. So I am ready to have completely missed this. And that I will

slowly but surely come to your camp, which is to say, you may not like the construction of these earworms, Nathan, but they are earworms. And I absolutely respect that there's going to be some people who bite down on that hook. For me, for me, it isn't there, but I'm ready to be wrong. I'd like to be wrong because you can tell I'm rooting for her. You see him, I will say that Nathan seems genuinely distraught on the Zoom right now. I feel distraught. I think I don't want to overstate my position here, right? Like when we did our artists to watch, I was very tempted to pick Tate and I ultimately didn't. And I think I feel more validated by that than invalidated by it, having heard this album.

But I do think an interesting thing that happened with two albums that we talked about as not totally hitting a transcendent mark in somewhat similar ways to this, although I do think that both of the albums that I'm about to mention are stronger and actually considerably so, are the duo record from last year and the Ariana Grande record from last year. Both of those albums, if you dig into it, people have continued to listen

to those songs because they're catchy and they're good songs and they warm their way into you. And I would just say I wouldn't be shocked if that happens with Ms. Tate.

And I agree with you that the tour is going to be really interesting because I do think that if she can't make these click when you add the dance component to it, it's not like game over for a career or anything like that.

But I think, look, I think they put a lot of effort into making this work. And if it doesn't work in that context, I think that'll say something. But I am certainly holding a lot of interest to see how that goes.

And I thought a lot of these were really sturdily constructed, and in some cases, compellingly delivered. So how's that for a lukewarm for damning by faint praise? Call me when you break up, Nora. You need to give your,

you need to give a grade. I'm not letting you go before you do this. Okay. This album is a C. All right. That's fine. Yeah. This has been every single album.

As always, Princiotti, he's Nathan Hubbard. That was Tate McCray. Thank you to Kaia McMullen for producing this episode and we'll talk to you soon.