Every Single Album - ‘Speak Now (Taylor’s Version)’ | Every Single Album: Taylor Swift

Episode Date: July 12, 2023

Nora and Nathan break down the most recent release in Taylor Swift’s rerecording project: ‘Speak Now.’ They talk about the songs where her voice has most obviously changed and how it is different (25:26), their favorite vault songs from this rerelease and where they might be pulling inspiration from (41:13), and an Easter egg from the “I Can See You” music video that hints that ‘1989 (Taylor’s Version)’ might be coming next (1:16:22). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Welcome to every single album. Taylor Swift. I'm Nora Princeati. He's Nathan Hubbard. We are here to talk about Speak Now, Taylor's version. Nathan, it has been, let's see, five days, four days since this album came into the universe. I was away when that happened. We literally have not talked about it with each other at all. We haven't talked with each other about anything. Yeah, never heard of him. I was off the grid. but now I'm back on. Behind the moon. You should say behind the moon?

Yeah. I've never heard that. That's a great expression. Well, that's where you were. But I'm glad to have you back because we have so much to discuss. It's actually sort of overwhelming to like have a whole... I just feel like we're so lucky to have all of this to dive into. But as we just alluded to, this is our first conversation about this album, about

the latest re-recording. So live on air, give me your general reaction. Like how, tell me how you listened, tell me when you listened, tell me how it felt for the first time. And over the first few days of Taylor's version of Speak Now being in the universe, what it's felt like for you. I was in Stockholm. So not quite behind the moon. We're a very international pod these days. It's very exciting. Yeah. But the thing about Stockholm in July is the sun never goes down.

Ever. Like there's like this long, drawn-out sunset, and then it's just twilight for a little bit. And then the sun starts coming up. It is officially sunset at like 10.30, and it starts coming up at 3 in the morning. But it's never dark. And so whatever the opposite of,

You have seasonal dark depression that you get on the East Coast, if you're not careful. I had the absolute opposite of that in Stockholm, which was just like permanent cocaine bear sunlight high. And that was keeping me up. Well, you know, we talk about the cocaine bears from the we're never getting back together video. I don't know what they have to do with daylight, but that's fine. Listen, I was charged up. I couldn't sleep, is the point. And so this came out. You, like, don't sleep normally. It's also true.

It's also true. Because they don't get text messages from Nathan Hubbard unless, I don't know. I guess they could. I don't think you sleep. But I guess that means you don't sleep extra in a place where it doesn't get dark. Yeah, it's a problem. It's a little bit of a problem. But it came out, you know, at whatever, six in the morning, five in the morning,

Stockholm time. And, of course, yes, I had been awake being like, shit it's light for hours and being like, oh my God, it's coming out. So I just basically pulled an all-nighter and listened to it on full jet lag sunlight high. And it was a great way to listen to this album because, you know, look, when the re-records come out, I'm interested to hear how you do it. I like to listen to it all the way through. And then I go back and compare just because I want to take in the energy of the album overall and then start, you know, comparing. So that's how I processed it. And listen, we can talk about initial reactions. But I'm interested to hear, because you were

literally coming out of the woods. Are we out of the woods yet? Are we out of the woods yet? Are we out of the woods yet? And I'm so interested to hear when you actually heard it, were you on an airplane, were you completely upside down like me in terms of time zones? How did you digest it? Yeah. So every prior re-release. My listening process has been the same, which is to stay up until midnight. I've been on the East Coast for the others and just listen with everybody else and be online and watch the reaction and be part of it and listen to it top to bottom straight through. This one by necessity was the first time. It had been different from that. I was so I was on a trip and I was in South Africa and I didn't have a lot of internet access. So I didn't have a lot of internet access. So I didn't. listened to it right when it came out, but, and I'm screwed up on the time difference, maybe 10 hours after it had been released, we were flying from Johannesburg to London overnight. And I downloaded it in the airport so that I could listen to it and like start taking notes and stuff on the plane. But it was the first, like, what was really different for me

was it was the first time that I listened to it and like just been alone with myself. and my thoughts in like a dark airplane. Yeah. Which was really interesting because and we should, I like when we get to talk about this stuff when we go through categories and like it sort of helps me make sense of it all. But it was an interesting one because this, I think, more than fearless and red, I felt some tension with in terms of just like what is the impact of this other than just

being a new version of this where the revenue streams go to Taylor and it furthers her along in the re-recording project, which is great. But sort of like, what is the value proposition to a fan other than this is something that we are doing for her? Because we'll get into it and we'll get there. But there are some songs that I think are better and exciting. And there are a couple places where I felt it just loses something that I love from the original version. And then an hour-ish into listening to this album. You got to the vault. With no clues about what was to come or what people were hearing or what people were

responding to because normally I would see that stuff on the internet, but that's not how I was listening to this. All of a sudden, it's like pitch black in the... this airplane. We're in one of the like A380s, those like massive two-decker biggest plane you've ever seen in your entire life. Oh no. You were that. And it's just like dark. You were that woman on the plane. And everyone's going to, everyone's asleep. Like I'm just like no one can see me like it. And all of a sudden I start listening to I Can See You, which spoiler alert is the song that makes this worth it. And I was just like, I can't believe that no one knows that this is happening inside my

head right now. Like nobody has any idea of the thing that is happening over here. And I just, like, it was honestly my father. Good thing they kept you away from the controls of the plane. That's interesting, though. Like, we listened both on sleep deprivation, but you in pitch black, surrounded by people and me in bright daylight alone. Fascinating. I think you're right, though. Nora, for me, there are three things that are just so clearly the core essence of this album and that are the big points. The first is, she changed the lyric on Better Than Revenge, and I can't wait to hear your thoughts because you really did not want that to happen. But it's not just about changing the lyric. I think we'll talk about what that actually means.

the second is just as you said. The story of this album is not the story of us. It's the story of her voice. There is a direct trade here, which is teenage angst and heartbreak and fragility and her still finding herself for where she is today, which is just this powerful instrument

that's been part of her journey that she first publicly started singing about on this very album. And the question for all the listeners is who wins in that trade? That's the second thing. And to me, the third big thing is I think that this is the best

collection of vault songs that we've gotten yet. Oh, okay. That piece of it is very interesting because I don't know if I'm going to agree with that in terms of the vault as a whole. But I think the fault matters and is interesting.

It continues this experience. that she does with those vault tracks where you can hear snippets and ideas that she was obsessing over that, you know, as we'll talk about, almost have sliding doors moments where she takes them in one direction and they make the album.

She clearly experimented with taking the idea in a different direction and it becomes a vault song. But either way, I think to me, those were the three just glaring takeaways. And yeah, we'll talk about the, fucking backflip and all of the hoopla and using the tour to launch this thing. But I'm with you.

It is a very interesting moment to say, wait, why are we doing this again? And to me, I felt grounded in why we're doing this again once I heard last kiss at the end and then into the vault. Okay. So the first category that we always do is the biggest song. And we just talked about a lot of stuff that we'll get to all of it. But let's talk about. the vault and let's talk about I can see you. Which to me is the biggest new song or biggest Taylor's version, at least in the sense of something that has entered our lives now in a new way. It is streaming.

It is ever so slightly behind mine and back to December in Spotify stream so far. Those three, though, are the clear leaders. they're all like right under 16 million or something. So they're all about the same. And mine and back to December are right at the beginning of the album. So that to me says this is the song that people are going to. The other thing that I should say about how I heard this for the first time, again, I wasn't looking at Twitter and I hadn't read a lot.

So I didn't know about the music video. I'm fuzzy on the timeline because like my head is in 19 different time zones. I think it was out. I think she'd played it at the concert. But I didn't know that. So the first time I heard that song, my reaction was, oh, I love this. Are other people going to love this? Is this song going to work?

And it seems like the answer to that so far is yes. It seems like TikTok loves this song. The music video is awesome. It does look like people are going to stream it. Could you tell, did you have that same track? of is this going to work as the big one when you heard it at first? Or did you see some of the fan reaction or some of those other signs? No, I mean, I heard it and wrote a little Twitter thread right away as I was listening in real time and said, stream this song with the windows down because this is

the one. And then she put the video out, great. She sort of guided everybody towards it. So I think she put her thumb on the scale a little bit to direct people towards this. But look, it's not necessarily a new style, but it is very new from Taylor Swift. And it just sounds so different and it's sexy and it's feels like she sort of held it back probably for that reason. But look, even in this song. Hold on. Can we not gloss over that? Okay. Do you think that's why this was a vault track? Do you think Andrea or someone was like too risky? Sorry. No up against the wall for you, 19 year old Taylor. I think up against the wall was the problem. Yeah. I also, though...

It's like the most chaste, like... Yes. And it's so funny to me. Yes. But if we go back to 2010, we're being very conservative. We're still in the country world, right? We're still reliant on country radio to drive this thing. We're nine months from the time we got up on stage

and accepted the Grammy for Fearless. So we're not going to go full-on, like, sultry, you know, vixen song as our follow-up to that, especially not when the core theme of this record was about her evolution as a songwriter and to being, you know, taken more seriously as a songwriter because she wrote every single thing on this album. And by the way, she wrote every single one of these vault tracks. That's a happy accident to me. I think the idea that this song is like too risky is very, very sweet. The happy accident part of it is that it's way funnier to get it now.

And I mean, look, the conception of the music video is a great idea. It's really, really fun. It worked really, really well. If in a different life, they'd tried to make a music video that was like credibly sexy to this song. Oh, no, no, no. So, I don't even mean the lyrical content so much as I mean the music. I just think that riff, which, look, the opening is very much like the start of mine. And she definitely borrows pieces of songs that made the album in almost every single one of these vault tracks.

Yeah. But then it's into a riff that sounds a lot like London calling by The Clash. Yeah. But it's not entirely that. And so it feels, it just feels fresh and cool and like, you want to walk around to this song. It's a great, this is what cruel summer is trying to be, which is song of the summer as far as I'm concerned.

Like, this is a great strut song. I totally agree with you. I love this song. I just think that there's a very funny piece of it where this is, and we've all been there, this is a perfect rendering. of a sexually inexperienced person's idea of like what is hot and sexy. Yeah. That is beautiful.

That is a beautiful artifact. And it's more fun to get it from, it's more fun to get it in 2020. It's a false song than to get it in 2020. Fair enough. It is fair to ask the question after listening to this song, has this person ever had sex before? Or is this just what you imagine? I was like, did you?

she write this after watching suits? Like, did Taylor go on, I don't even know when suits was on the air, but I was like, I feel like this reminds me of suits. Well, and she sort of picked the perfect main character to star in this video and to introduce

in Taylor Lautner, because boy, it feels so great to have Taylor Lautner back in my life. And he and his wife have become some of my close friends. And it's really convenient because we all have the same first name. who really is like speaking of like has this person he is the reason the reason that they're still friends is because he is just like her in the best way a giant theater nerd who like spider man got bit by some you know radioactive animal that gave him these secret ninja powers that he doesn't really want or know what to do that he doesn't really want or know what to do.

do with. It seems like Taylor Lautner just wants to dance. It's somewhere in between. He wants to do backflips and spin his staff around. Yeah, yeah. But he loves the ninja moves. He's got a little bit of Napoleon dynamite in him. He's like, he's, he's a bona fide nerd. And now that's why he made that ridiculous video where he's like on his knees and all the backstage content from when he and Joey Kim, and Presley Cash came out on stage. It's just, it's wonderful to have him back in the lives. I don't know what he actually does all day anymore.

And I think it was like letting out all of that energy. He practices backflips. Well, you don't think that takes a certain amount of maintenance? I just think, I don't even know if he practices them. I mean, the thing is, he's just been holed up in nowhere land for so long, probably having like a normal life with his normal wife who has the same name as he does. and she took him out of whatever sort of, you know, bucolic life he's been living,

dropped him in front of 70,000 people. And it was just like, he was like, it was just like, and he just freaked out and does the backflip, because the energy is so much coming onto that stage. He didn't know what else to do. It's like totally blacked out. That article that we've seen about concert amnesia from the Taylor Swift fans, he 100% had concert amnesia in that moment.

And just, it just went to his, secret ninja powers. And here we are. It was really, really pure. It was really, really special. It is very fun to have, and a couple of this era, I mean, obviously, there are some clear exceptions to this, but it is nice that a couple of the ex-boyfriends of this era have been welcomed back into the circle. Sure. And we have nice, positive relationships with Taylor, with Joe Jonas. It's nice. It's a nice thing to look back off. and feel some growth and some closure with.

And Taylor Lautner is clearly very happy to be involved. Very happy. Very charming. But this song is the one. It's interesting to me that you think this is the biggest song. Because I still think that back to December is the biggest song on this album still. And I think even in the vault tracks, she does some, at least if we are to believe,

and I do, that all of these songs or snippets or parts of them existed in this era, you can hear her working some parts of back to December through these songs. And Castle's Crumbling, the bridge at like three minutes and 30 seconds there is pretty similar to the like three minute, 23 second mark and back to December.

Maybe this is wishful things. Like a lot of these vault tracks, they just feel like there are these sliding door moments with Back to December that she went off and worked down. Like timeless. At the beginning of the chorus of Timeless, it sounds like the start of the Back to December chorus to me. Right.

And there's also that acoustic breakdown with that same sort of lyrical cadence and melody that builds back in with, the drums and the orchestral backing just like back to December. Yeah. And so I just feel like this was the one at the center. Yeah, dear John, we should talk a lot about Dear John, because I sort of fell in love with that song from this version

and through all of the what ended up being a pretty drama-free introduction of it. But to me, it feels like back to December was the one she knew she had and that she was iterating on and working on it. And it's still, with her voice now, it still feels really big to me. Again, we need to talk about how you feel about the differences because there are big, big, big, big, big, sonic tone quality differences in her voice. And in a lot of cases, it changes the nature of the song. But I still would say, biggest song for me is back to December. But let's see. Let's see if it gets.

outstreamed by I Can See You, because I can see you for me is the one that I've listened to 10 times more than any of the others. Yeah, no, me too. I mean, look, there's, I think two things can be true, right? Is that it's much easier to feel impacted by something that you've never heard before rather than pulling out those little differences and those little continuity between some of the vault tracks and back to December. But, less we forget, back to December, an important song because of the apology to Taylor Lautner. So by extension, it is a pivotal text in this thing, this past experience that I think is being looked back on very fondly and with a lot of love and empathy to all parties involved,

which is a really delightful thing about this album and the rollout and everything we've seen. Yeah. So I'm good with that too. I just, I'm bopping. I can see you so much right now. We usually do the best song next, which is another category that's a little bit tricky with the re-recordings because are we talking about what's absolutely best overall versus what do we think is best right now with the influence of what not having heard something before kind of makes you feel differently about. but let's just talk because you were bringing up a little bit how noticeable the changes in her voice are on this. Let's talk a little bit about what we think worked and what we think didn't just sonically given that development. It sounds like you're in a pretty good place with it.

Yeah, I miss it on Speak Now. I miss it on... I guess it's... I miss it a little bit on mine. Last kiss forward and we're taking on the world together. Last kiss is so much fucking better. Never saw we'd ever let. Or we'd ever love. Even without the shit. Even without the shaky breath. And I hope

the sun shines and it's a beautiful day and something reminds you. I hope the sun shines and it's a beautiful day and something reminds you. Even without the shaky breath,

I love Last Kiss. And I think in a lot of ways for me it's the best song in the album. I know that's saying a lot. But I just, I could listen to her sing that over and over and over again because it just is such a great feature for her voice.

I get the argument that what has been lost in this is the bitterness, some of the anger, some of the insecurity that reigned in the voice that from Bob Leffs' standpoint meant she wasn't very good at singing. And she is stretching in the original version of some of these songs. Like going into the sad, empty town coming out of, you know, the bridge of Dear John. Like, she's really, she's straining there. And she's got on the new version, she's got Mike Meadows from her band singing underneath her. And he does an awesome job all over this album.

By the way, her whole band does an awesome job all over this album. I love that they've become a more integrated part of her musical family through these re-recordings. And that the same people who are playing on the album are the ones. that you're seeing live. It just creates this great connectivity for me in her music. But he's singing the Nathan Chapman parts that really were introduced

to cover for her. She doesn't really need that cover now. And on the re-records, those, you know, Mike Meadows' voices is lower and hers is obviously more prominent. But, I mean, to you, do you miss it on Sparks Fly? Do you miss it on Dear John?

Do you miss it on Story of Us? So, ironically, and this is really funny, the place where I miss it the most is mean. But you don't know, what you don't know, someday I... It's just like such a funny twist of that because what's the song about in the first place, right? And now I'm listening to it and going, yeah, she sounds objectively better. Her voice sounds Her voice sounds objectively fuller and stronger and more confident and richer and warmer.

Some of that is better tools and better tech, right? But a lot of it is her. Yeah, yeah. And I just miss it. I miss the bite and you're a liar and pathetic. Like some of it, I think, does come from the thinness that used to be more a part of her voice conferring the youth

that made some of this especially potent. For sure. Some of it, I think, is just you can tell when someone feels something and those feelings were definitely more raw than than they are now, as she said. But ironically, mean is the one where I missed it the most.

And then Dear John was the, just as you mentioned, the fireworks over your side. empty town. I'm glad the pain is not there, right? Like, I'm glad she's not living in that. But you can tell. And I'm glad you can tell.

One of the kind of cool things that I think has come up as a result of these re-recordings is some renewed faith on my part that we can spot what's real and what's fake. Like, you can hear it when something's really in someone's heart and in their soul. Yeah. So I don't know what she's going to do about that. I do think when I listened to this the first time, there were parts of me that were a little not concerned, but they just made me start to think about,

okay, what is the path forward for the rest of these re-releases? Yeah. Because Dear John and Mean are two really, really, really heavy-hitting tracks from Speak Now, right? For those two, which to me... And you want to listen to the old ones. Yeah. Yeah.

Now, there, in number, are just as many songs, if not more, that I think I'd rather listen to the new ones. I mean, you mentioned missing her younger voice on mine a little bit. I love how full and warm and thick and rich the new version. sounds. I felt the same way about ours. I think some of the energy that she can put into a belt on haunted is super, super cool.

There's some poignancy to never grow up. Oh, darling, don't you ever grow, don't you ever grow, just stay this little. That gets added when she's singing it, you know, however many years later. You miss it a little bit? Yeah, I miss it a little bit. It doesn't resonate as much with me on that, yeah. Oh, darling, don't you ever grow, don't you ever grow to stay this little. Last kiss?

I don't look, I'll never be as high on that song as you are, even though I like it. That's just so special to you. But I was, that was another one, right? Where everyone's asleep around me. And I'm just sitting in the dark on this plane listening to that song, sort of feeling it in a new way on this version going, oh my God. This is the saddest text in human recorded history. Yeah. And that hit in a way that it hasn't before.

And then long live. Yeah, this is the one I wanted to hear your thoughts, and I intentionally didn't talk about it. This is a song that is built to be kind of belted out, and it's built to fill stadiums and be this communal experience, and I think the strength of her voice now is a perfect tool to confer that. It's been added to the Ares Tour set list. Yeah, yeah.

That rules. Yeah, and again, by the way, she does it. with her whole band and a line around her, like some kind of, you know, colonial war. You know, like, she's the general and she's got her whole army lined up with her. It's just a great feature moment. By the way, we're going to talk about the historical references

in this album at some point. Okay. Okay. But keep going. No, I mean, long live, like, tell me. Like, does it, do you miss the old long live? No. No, I mean, I love the old long live.

I love the new long live. The other thing is that, like, long live to me has been this real sort of living, living document. Like, she's performed it. I love it live. I was really, really excited to hear, you know, whenever it was going to be become a part of the Erez tour, which I assumed would be as a surprise song. Now, so happy to see it added to the set list. Yeah.

That is a song where I am not particularly attached to a version. Yeah. I just love the experience. of that song, if that makes sense. It does. That one I'm good with. I think what you're articulating is the tension that every fan is going to feel around this album.

I think to really, outside the vault, to really get into and listen to this, you A, have to be signed up for the mission, which is to help her reclaim her art. And B, think you've got to get into the narrative of these songs and the performance. and the progression of her, the progression of her personally,

the journey that she went through from the time she recorded to Dear John to getting up on stage in Minneapolis and saying, let it go, kindness and grace. So I was hoping to ask you that as we lead up to this album coming out, I would love for that kindness

and that gentleness to extend onto our internet activities. the journey from Lefset's writing that she couldn't sing and that just stinging her to recording it here in a way that

I mean it's just such a dunk moment for her her voice has all of this richness and character in those moments that I can't sing like the way that her the tone of her voice

on this version drunken grumbling. She can't hide how much better it is. It's undeniably better, right? She says, someday I'll be big enough so you can't hit me. Guess who hasn't written back?

This thing came out on Friday. Left sets has written nothing. His most recent post, which is the only one that he's written since she released this, is about him going back to Fairfield, Connecticut, his hometown to place the headstone on his mother's grave that he hadn't been able to do because of COVID and about how he got out of this town. I took notes because you got to he writes,

no one cares who I am in Southern California. So I'm not holding on to yesterday. The world has changed since I grew up. Now nobody dominates. There's no center. All we've got is little groups. That's not the life I want. I want a bigger playing field. I need to be at the center. And you know what? like all that sounds like a Taylor Swift song. It's like he definitely heard this version. He hasn't written about it, probably because he doesn't want the drama. But he wants to make a dent in the universe

so he gets himself out of this small town in Connecticut. And like in the most, here we come full circle. Like the biggest dent he made in the universe was pissing off Taylor Swift. And now he won't even write. Fairfield, Connecticut catching straight on every single album. I guess. But, like, he won't even write about her.

And we're in this moment where her voice is now come full circle. It's clearly so much stronger. She is big enough that she is living in a big old city. She is big enough that he can't take shots at her anymore. Living in like 19 of them. Yeah. And so I, if you're not into that journey, I think you're going to want to go back and listen to the old stuff.

But if you're signed up for how this one in particular was so personal to her, and the person that she's evolved and the artist that she's evolved into, you can get deeply into the newness of these songs. Yeah, I think that's right. To me, it's a little bit more... Listening to this, I think, has driven home to me how much with each re-recording, I think the biggest piece of it, assuming there's basic Sonic Fidelity,

which I think in the grand scheme of things, she has hit on with... in every single one of them very closely. You know, we've gone through all the little places where there's something different. But largely, that has not been a question throughout this entire thing. I just think this one, to me, drove home the value proposition to a fan, at least from my perspective, has to do with what's in the vault. Yeah. And I don't know that I was, until I can see you.

Something's changed. It's something I like. I was a little iffy or on. I wasn't sure if I was going to feel like we quite got there. And because I think some of those little vocal imperfections, but ones that you end up being attached to and used to, are missing in a couple of those songs, I think before I really bought into that, it did bring up some of those questions of like on what basis do you buy into the rollout

and buy into, okay, we're going to pre-order and pre-save and treat this like a new album. Treat this like something that has 13 original songs on it, which it doesn't, right? To me, we are there. The value in doing that is definitely there. I do question a little bit how many people there are who can really do that just on the basis of, okay, let's buy into the narrative and let's think about, you know, what it means that she's singing mean with this voice versus

that I think there are a lot of those people. I just think she's in a much stronger position when it's, okay, have fun doing that. But also, here is new original content that is good and that you are going to want to spend time with and is going to be stuff that you've never seen and heard. And I think she ultimately, like, I think she cleared that bar too.

It was a funny experience for me, listening to this one, because I was not fully sure until I'd gotten through the hole of the vault. That's all. The data is going to tell us a lot about how people feel. Right now, Red Taylor's version is outstreaming the old Red 3 to 1.

Fearless Taylor's version is outstreaming the old one two to one. And like she definitely did damage to old red. Like old red streams were down over 40% in 22 versus 21. Fearless was down, but only 16 plus percent in 22 versus 21. So interesting to me because red the actual red, I'm going to use this data to to fit my own personal narrative, that it's really the vault that does that. I think you might be right.

Fearless to me is a closer recreation than, Fearless Taylor's version is a closer recreation than Red Taylor's version of the original songs. Because the Max Martin songs on Red Taylor's version, I don't think are quite there. The Red Taylor's version Vault is the vault to me still. that justifies this entire thing if it needs to. So I know I spend a lot of time with Red Taylor's version open in my Spotify

because once you go there for nothing new or Babe or Better Man or all too well 10. Yeah. How can a person know everything at 18, but nothing at 20? You just wish you were... Then all of a sudden, okay, what the heck? You know, I miss the cocaine bears, but I'll play the rest of the album. Well, you could just stay up all night in the sunlight. I could do that, too.

That's a good point. By the way, All 2L Tenement version is by a mile my favorite fall track ever, and I said at the beginning that this may be my favorite collection of vault songs. I think as a whole, I like this collection a ton. There are individual ones that I agree with you. I think the vault on red is terrific. The other read on the... that data is just that people miss her voice.

And so they're signed up for the mission, but not everybody is. And that old Fearless gets more streams on a relative basis because people miss the voice. That's what's going to be interesting about the data here. For all the reasons that you just mentioned about the differences between the albums and whether the Max Martin stuff has the energy, it's just this is going to be the tiebreaker to see on some of these older things. Are there people who just miss whatever the karmic energy was in her voice that was being expressed? Do they need that to really feel resonance with the song?

Or can they get into all the things we've been talking about? So I can't wait to see the data here. I think the fan base largely, obviously, is outstreaming the old stuff with the new stuff. They've signed up. But there are some differences. And Speak Now is going to be very telling. because this is the one. I mean, you grew up with this album.

Like, this is the one that I think is going to be the bellwether for whether fans can get completely on board. I do think there's going to be more cheating, if that's what it is. They're going to cheat on mother. They're going to cheat on her with this album, more so than any of the others. Taylor Laudner is going to backflip into your recording studio

and spear you with a staff. I mean, listen, I don't support it. I'm going to be one of the people who probably doesn't go back, but I do think there'll be a little bit more surreptitious cheating. The data will tell us. That's an interesting point that I hadn't thought about in terms of like when is it that you're missing production versus when is it that you're missing just the voice. And I do think there's a little bit of a divide between red and fearless

that we'll then probably get to add this and 1989 Taylor's version when we get it to that data set and maybe try to get some clear. on that because with Red Taylor's version, when we play Spot the Differences, we are mostly talking about production elements. With Fearless and then also with this, when we do that as well, I think we're largely talking about her voice.

Yeah, there are sonic differences that affect the energy and delivery and ultimately the meaning and reception of the song. It's undeniable. Presumably, 1989, not having been quite so long ago and also being a, you know, stylistic production heavy album, would fall more into the category of let's see if they can recreate the production on these songs. So ultimately, we may end up having within the first four re-recordings

to where the differences are more pronounced in terms of, you know, of how she's singing and what her voice sounds like. And two, and I'm not saying there aren't differences between original Red and Red Taylor's version that have to do with how she's singing and how good her voice is, because they're definitely there. But since the things that stand out to me

are the cocaine bears, the 22 production, that stuff is most pronounced, if 1989 falls into that same category and 1989 and red end up cannibalizing the original versions more so than fearless speak now. Maybe that tells us something.

Now, obviously, we'll have to see. But I hadn't thought about that. Very astute point, Nathan. Hey. You want to talk about track five? Let's do it. You said that you experienced Dear John in a new way through Taylor's version. Yeah, and you know, this conversation is making me feel like a minion a little bit

because I think I'm just, I think I just am sort of following orders from her at this point. I signed up for the back off on the hate thing. And we'll talk more about that. But I think Dear John is terrific. And I think the delivery of this has been pretty drama-free. Like her command worked. And she sort of masterfully put this one to bed. And so I love hearing her voice on this stuff.

I love how the mix brings out a bunch of the instrumentation that created really big sound on the original version. But you can hear those little high piano notes. You can hear the guitar solos better. You should have known at the end feels like. less like she's scolding John now. And more like she's talking to herself, even though, listen, unequivocally, he should have known.

But it... True, correct. There's something about the reflectiveness of the song that I really love. And then the power of her voice, which, to date, as she recorded it, I think this was the biggest reach. Right after the, you know, sad, empty town where she really goes, for it. I hear that. I hear that and I believe it to be objectively true. I just... You miss it. I don't really want... I know. I want it to be scolding. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. It's... I get it.

I don't need to scold him on the internet. I just want him to be scolded in song. I don't even care that it's him. I just, just that that pain that is not mixed with doubt is something that's... that she's so good at, that being so deeply hurt, but from the perspective of a young person especially, knowing that, like, it's not that she screwed up, it's not that she did something wrong, that somebody else wronged her. I love listening to that quality. And again, I think at this point in her life, if she were still feeling that deeply, it would be weird. And I'm glad she's not. But I miss it. Yeah. The youth is not here.

And the fragility is not here. Well, and it's a song about, like, it's a song about an age gap, right? Like, pretty fundamentally. And while yes, there are songs where hearing the new versions allows you to sort of think about them in a new context and get some enjoyment out of kind of the meta. narrative around how she's changed, how her voice has changed, how, you know, relationships have changed, whatever it is. This one's just tough for me. I'm standing the OG here. Yeah, and I think you're going to be in the overwhelming majority. As a grown-ass man who did not sort of resonate with this,

who was closer to John's age than Taylor's. I miss it, but it wasn't the core part of the song. It's also why this was not my favorite song on the album. It's why it took me a little while to really, you know, we talked about it back. Like this song, it didn't blow me away as the one from this record. I think if you lived this and you were of the age

where you could so closely relate to these feelings, you can't help but miss this. You can't help. It's a different song. It is a different song with her voice the way it is now. Most important collaborators

is what we have up next. You brought up what I wrote down, which is just that the band is absolutely crushing it. Yeah. On this. Largely, I found this category to be kind of challenging because in True Speak Now form, this is her album, right?

The coolest thing about this record is just how much of her is in all of these songs for better. And I won't say worse, because I don't think that's true, but for better and for just sort of more teenage chaos. Yeah. But you're right to single out the band because they do really good work

sort of throughout this whole thing. And it's cool, again, as you said, that they've become a more central part of her recording work through the Taylor's versions. Well, I think it is the band. In particular, for me, it is Mike Meadows, who, by the way, used to work for me.

In Charlottesville, Virginia, he's... Okay, say more. That's all there is to say. He's great. and he's made a heck of a career for himself. And I do think like he's the sneaky MVP collaborator on this record because he manages to cover the male, usually lower harmony vocal without you missing what it used to be.

It doesn't stand out as being different. When you're noticing that Taylor's voice is different, but not the accompanying harmony, he's done an awesome job. Yeah, it's really subtle in a nice way, which I actually think is harder than we realize. It is. Because for all of how the changes in her voice make that less of a necessity to have something relatively strong and stable backing her. My experience, and now I don't have the expertise that you do to really know exactly how the tech has changed, but just my experience as a listener is that it is much easier to pick out individual threads

of an instrument or a vocal or a backing vocal or whatever on the re-recordings. I think just because the equipment that they're recording using is better or headphones are better or whatever. So I actually think it's very hard to make that fall into the distance, at least relative to the original recordings. because I sometimes find on the earlier OG records, I can find it difficult to pick out individual parts, whereas on the newer stuff, I think it's easier. But he manages to do that in a way that's very subtle

and I think fits in with making them one-to-one recreations. Well, I'm duly impressed. He deserves a lot of flowers for this work. And again, I just love seeing this band that, is sort of her, you know, they've got her back. They've got her back on stage. They've got her back in this project. They're just terrific. They're firing on all cylinders right now. Did you have any, I'm guessing based on your reaction to the vault, that some of the collabs might have hit you in the feels or in some type of way.

I love, yeah. I love the collabs. I don't think I loved him well enough to, enough to call out the collaborations themselves. But I don't know. There's some blowback over electric touch with Fall Out Boy where people are saying, oh, I think it's be better

without Fallout Boy. Totally disagree. I mean, I can understand the blowback over their rewrite of We Didn't Start the Fire, but like, I think saying this song is better without the band

isn't fair. It's awesome with the band. It, like, harkens back to their collab during the Victoria's Secret show. It reminds me, of her awesome Crossroads episode with Def Leppard and in particular,

the song Photograph that they did together? Like, who knew Taylor was in her 80s era during Speak Now instead of 1989? I love this song. It's big.

It's like, I don't know, I think maybe they left it off because she talks about a ghost town on this, which is, by the way, lyrically similar to the sad,

empty town stuff from Dear John. So maybe that was an idea that she was working and that that's why this got left off. I love that they go half-time. Like the 320-ish mark, they go to halftime, which is just like standard hair rock metal move.

Also a very fallout boy thing to do. Totally. Totally, totally, totally, totally. So I'm, again, maybe I'm in the minority on this one, but I am psyched about this song and I'm psyched about the collaboration. I'm less psyched about it. I don't mind it.

It just does very little for me. I'm a little upset that in a collaboration between Taylor Swift and Fallout Boy, there's not like, the lyrics are just kind of blah. They're just kind of platitudes. There's not one weirdly wordy, strange run-on sentence thing going on.

It does feel like a Fallout Boy song a little bit in the, halftime thing in the just the sort of wall of soundiness to it. Yeah. I don't mind it. I'm happy it exists. I don't know. I was not particularly moved by it.

I couldn't shake at the beginning the Phil Collins' invisible touch stuff. But the more I listen to this song, I dig it, man. This is a rock song. And it works with the band for me. Look, the other collab, I'm interested in your, in your, thoughts on Castle's crumbling. This is the first time we get heard directly with Haley Williams. We now know that they're going to be in Europe for a ton of next summer.

And so I assume we're going to get to hear this song in the same way that Phoebe came out and did nothing new. That we're going to get to hear this song a lot next summer. I mean, the opening, the very opening drum intro, has heavy-duty paper doll vibes. Mm-hmm. Just the first, like, second and a half, two seconds, I, like, leaned forward and was like, no, she didn't. Can you imagine?

Can you imagine? And the answer is, no, she didn't. But, like, do you think it's related to call it what you want at all? My castle crumbled overnight. I brought a knife to a gunfight. Just the castle's crumbling. My castle crumbled over. Like the lyrical part of that, is that just a metaphor that she iterated on for a while before she decided to put it on?

Yeah. No, yeah, yeah, I think that's right. I think you get, you get that a lot with her, right? Like, she does take some of those things and then bring them back in. I mean, I get a lot of starlight in timeless. It feels like that was something that didn't make the album, and she noodled on some of those themes and ideas and went, oh, I think I'm more ready now and I have a better idea and I'm going to bring this back in. Yeah. I think, so I've liked Castle's Crumbling more and more as I've listened to it more. She gave Haley a verse.

Crowds would hang on my words and they trusted me. Yeah, which, again, that has never mattered to me the way that. that it matters to other people, but happy for everyone. There won't be a Castle's Crumbling with more, featuring more Haley Williams. Featuring more Haley Williams. What if we get, where we should be featuring more Haley Williams

is, they should redo better than Revenge, Taylor's version, reintroduction of internalized misogyny version. I'm having trouble with Castle's Crumbling because I am comparing it to nothing new, like better. But I do think it is a good song. It's I've had too much to drink

tonight and I know it's sad but this is what I think about and I... It just feels like it's the vault song that's about being a young pop star and worrying that your time in the spotlight is fading. And I think she did that better on nothing new with Phoebe than she did it

here. But I still like the song and I'm liking it more and more the more that I listen to it. Keow back, the bridge, there's, the bridge is pretty similar to the same spot in back to December. Smoke bills from my ships in the heart. This is wishful thinking.

Probably mindless dreaming. I think this was part of her working through that song and this one fell out of it. So I get that it maybe is, you know, it's definitely part of the back to December family tree. And again, like this sliding doors moment that takes this kernel of an idea that ended up making the album

and it takes it in a different direction. You get to see what could have been. But I just enjoy their voices together. I enjoy the collab and it just works. I enjoy them. And look, Haley has been part of the lore of this album. That's very fun. An experience that's very fun

with how this all came together is this is like the 2010 10 Avengers. Right? Like, we've brought back Taylor Lawdner. We have Haley Williams.

We might have Emma Stone. I don't know. I mean, let's talk about that. When Emma falls in love, a lot of people are into, I don't hear the drops

of Jupiter stuff. Now that she's back in the atmosphere with drops of Jupiter in an end. But, Is she good enough friends with Emma Watson for this to be about her? It's Emma Stone. I mean, Emma Stone. No.

Is she good enough friends with Emma Stone? I don't know why I said Emma Watson. I guess, I mean, it seems like they're pretty good friends, or at least we're pretty good friends during this time period. I think Emma Stone has talked about how they met at an awards show or something, and those couple of years were when they were closest. She's written plenty of songs about other people's friends of hers

relationships before so I don't find it incredulous that that would be the case I can't keep track of my emma's I'm not sure the fan base can either I'd love it. If it's not about Emma Stone, then who is it about? Let's just let her have a friend named Emma

that we don't know. I want to know Emma. Like I'd love it if she's Like a book that you can't put down. You don't want to know Emma? I want to know Emma. I just don't want to, I just don't want to, I don't want every song that she writes to have to be about a famous person. I mean, it doesn't, it doesn't have to be, but I think it is. Oh, God.

Also, she knows a lot of famous people. Like, those are just her friends at a certain point. I know, but this was 2010. I don't know. She was still like sort of, whatever. Do you think, do you think that foolish one, first? First of all, do you think foolish one is good? But on the pre-chorus, she says,

and the voices say you're not the exception. And the voices say you are not the exception. Do you think that that's a potential retort to the only exception? The Paramor song? Retort in just in the sense that that's a source. that's a song that she would have been moved by and that phrasing. Maybe, I think of that more as,

that's entirely possible. I mean, that's a great song. So that getting in her head in some way does not seem out of the realm of possibility. I hear Foolish One much more. I'm not sure it's a great song, but I love it because it's just so inside her head. I love hearing

This is a satisfying thing about the vault Separate from just Oh new great Taylor Swift song, right? This is a real time capsule to me And the idea of her writing a song to herself About convincing yourself That your situation ship is going to want to date you And that you're going to fall in love

and that you're going to fall in love and live happily ever after is a really good concept to know that she was thinking about in 2010, as we all were. And I really love it. And it's special to me, even though I don't know that I think, like, musically, it's a 10.

It's just a really fun little time capsule. Well, if you listen to that line, which is, like, super early on, like 35 seconds in, And the voices say you are not the exception. She does the and the voices you say are not the exception. It's the same key and melody as the please don't be in love with someone else stuff from Enchanted. And first of all, let me just restate for the record. God, I hate the attention that the Al City guy gets, like just generally speaking from Taylor Swift.

but I do wonder if this was one of those cutting room floor. She was working out that idea of, please don't be in love with someone else. And this song was one that didn't take off in the way that Enchanted. This one sort of sputtered, which I think is kind of what you're saying, so that Enchanted could fly. It's not, yeah.

I mean, if that's what happened, and I think you're right to trace that DNA, then that was ultimately, for the best in terms of speak now being an album that came out as a truly impressive statement of what she could do alone as a songwriter. Foolish one is just very charming. It's very relatable. It's particularly relatable for the era that it came from.

And it's fun to hear her having been working through those thoughts and feelings at that time. Well, and so let's wrap up on the discussion of the vault since we're here. Talk to me on timeless. Like I said before, I heard the chorus being a little bit of a woodshed for the start of the back to December chorus, but I also dig the song. I do too. I love it. It's ridiculous. It's a little on the nose. It's a lyrically. But. the moment when it becomes the 1500s. Yeah, what? And I was promised to another man,

but it would all be fine. Everything's going to work out. They would kill you. You would be deadsies, Taylor. Let's be real for a second. We can't be changing, like, we're updating the line and better than revenge, but we're also rewriting history to say

that she was just going to be able to, like, leave her arranged marriage in the 1500s. And I love that for her. I'm happy about it. I would love to hear a parody of this song where it just keeps getting earlier and earlier and earlier in history. Like, I was in the,

I'm in the antique shop and I saw something. And then it reminded me of how we would have been together in 477 BC. And it would have been so, like, I just, I want all of that. I think it's hysterical. I do not know what like homeschooling textbook of world history was in her tour bus at this time,

but I think there was one. And some funny things came out of that. She does have a little bit of that sort of like Emily Bronte obsession. Oh my, for everything that I love about long live, the fighting dragons. I'm like, why is this in there? What are we, what medieval thing are we reading that's in our heads that created this? I love it. I love it. I really love whatever was percolating there.

I mean, look, if when Emma falls in love is not about Emma Stone, I think I hadn't seen the speculation about that the first time that I listened to it. So I wondered if it was, if we were doing to Jane Austen. No, I wondered if we were doing some Jane Austen core. I mean, you know she loves it. Definitely. So Emma remains one of. no, the book remains one of my favorite books, but was definitely my favorite book in 2010. I'm completely out of Emmas.

I've exhausted the list of Emmas that I know. Emma, you said Chamberlain? Yes. You said Stone? Yes. You said Roberts. No. Yeah, you did.

You said Roberts to begin with. Oh, yeah, yeah. That's all the Emmas that exist. in the entire world. Oh, you didn't say Roberts. You said Watson originally. Yeah, so we just unearthed another one. We got another Emma.

All right, whatever. Let's talk about purposeful Easter eggs, Nora. Because, I mean, you tell me, I know we're on the same page on this. The backflip? By the way, didn't plan the flip. It felt right. Wait, what? The backflip.

What's Easter eggy about the backflip? The backflip being a callback to the iconic film Valentine's Day? Felicia, what is it about Willie that's so cool? Oh, well, besides the fact that he's totally hot, he's an amazing athlete. Go show him, babe. Go show him, go show him. So good. You love that movie.

I love seeing Taylor Lautner recreate his best role. as an actor. That's not true. Team J. You know what? Taylor Lottner gets a full-throated actor having now been part of the I Can See You music video. I had some snark about

Taylor Lottner's corning of the spotlight in the roll-up to this album. Yeah. I apologize, Taylor, sincerely. To you, to T-T-T-T-T. No, he's T-T-T-T-T. To Taylor. To all that.

the tailors, really. To all the Emmas, to all the tailors. You appreciate him. I love to see it. But the backflip, which he famously does in the iconic movie Valentine's Day, is in the music video, he did it on stage because he

couldn't contain himself. Yeah. And the spinning of the staff. Yeah, from the Saturday Night Live thing. Just as he did on Saturday Night Live, when in his monologue, he discussed what he wished he'd done on the 2009 VMA's stage, and then he spun the thing around and knocked a head off of a cardboard

cut out of Kanye. Stand aside, honey? I'll handle this. Hey, I said, hey, that's right. I'm talking to you. Not so tough now, are you, Kanye West? Is it just so happens? You messed with the wrong tailors.

Strange times. Theater nerd. Bitten by a radioactive animal. Delightful. to see those callbacks. Really? Brought a... Brought some joy.

Yeah. I mean, a really big, really big moment for Taylor Lawtoner. Way to go, buddy. I think,

though, Nora, it's at the end of the, I can see a video. It's the 1989 Taylor's version that's on the bridge.

So is the van, van drives toward the bridge above on scaffolding or the overpass or whatever. There's a sign that if you put it

together, it says 1989 TV. Yeah. Yeah. And it's a good one. And I think that the data tells us why this is coming next. I mean, look, obviously, in the bejeweled video,

we saw the indication that Speak Now was coming, right? In the elevator. Right. But this one, I mean, she is blowing up right now. And for all of the damage that she's done to the old recordings, like the six big machine albums that she did, which are those sort of old catalog

that are now owned by somebody else, in the first six months of 2023, they have streamed almost as much as those six albums did in all of 2022. So her popularity is exploding, and the value of that old catalog is being pulled up, even though people are outstreaming

the old stuff, three to one red, two to one fear, fearless. People are going back now because she's just percol— because John Sina is posting about the tour, Nora. Right? That's your new guy. But—

No, for JJ Watt. He's been replaced. I'm going with John Sina. 30% of the total streams of her old catalog are coming from 1989. It's outstreamed Red Taylor's version and Feilers-Taylor's version this year. This—1989 is the album for the. the fan base if you just look at the numbers. And that's why we should and I think are going to see 1989 as soon as possible.

She is making the current owners of her old catalog a lot of money. And it looks like she can eat into about 75% of the total if she releases 1989 Taylor's version. And I think she's anxious to do that because they're literally right now riding the coattails of her John Cena J.J. Watt fueled cultural moment. And so I think that

Easter egg for me is the definitive declaration that we've known she's had some of these songs banked for a while. She definitely has had to work harder to figure out the production because it's just not as easy. The vocal thing's going to be easier

for us to process. And I think as soon as she gets 1989 out, she will have largely accomplish the goal of this entire re-recording project, which is to reclaim her art and stop other people from making money off her creation.

So let me ask you this. Do you think that if there's such an incentive to get it out there, and we know it's coming, we've been seeing it coming, the Easter egg and the music video, I think it doesn't even really need to be confirmed, but if it did, that really feels like a strong one. Yeah. But we're in this time when she is,

everywhere. She's all over your TikTok feed. She's performing multiple times a week. The tour is ongoing. There is a lot of Taylor Swift. It's really exciting. She is the biggest artist on planet Earth. But, one,

we've said the word backlash a fair few times over the last month plus. I think a lot of that has died down. But it's been in the water stream. And more importantly than that, I think a much more sort of real thing to consider than that is the fact that one kind of life cycle ago before we were in this Midnight's Era's era, we talked about these things. We talked about, you know, ever more going into fearless and then red as the counter example of something that really got a roll out in room to breathe. we talked about the potential dangers of putting too much stuff out there at once.

Is there any, do you think that 1989 Taylor's version that the biggest impact it can have is to just get out there and exist so that it can cut into that big chunk of people who are streaming the original? Or do you think there's any danger that if it's not something that comes with a serious vault, some sort of rollout, things that make it feel exciting and special. Is there any danger that it falls a little bit flat, not because it's not well done, but just because there is so much going on right now. Because, and I know I'm sort of monologuing here and I'll stop in a second. No. I don't know. I feel like I might sound a tiny bit negative

about Speak Now, Taylor's version overall. And that's not, I think it's really, really well done. What I'm responding to is just that this was the first one that I listened to. And I think part of it was how I listened to it and not being able to sort of see people reacting to it in real time. But this was the first one that I listened to and went, is there enough here to justify the rollout and to feel like we can live and breathe with it and experience it? like we would a full new album because I think Fearless and Red

accomplished that which is an insane standard to set is that they felt as exciting basically as a new original album and that's a

really high bar so I will stop talking now but I'm asking you if you think that that bar is the bar for 1989 because I do think if that's true

it is not impossible by any means, but it is an increasingly hard bar to clear when people have access to your work and what you're doing on a multiple times a week and saturating your feeds kind of basis. Well, first of all, I like listening to you talk about these things. And seem. I believe if I were in her camp, I would be looking at this data. and if the impetus for doing all this is to reclaim your art

and we've talked about this for now probably 60 total hours of podcasting and we're not dead yeah I would feel an enormous sense of urgency to get this out into the world because every single dollar

that you know every single day that goes by there are multiple dollars that are going into the pockets of people who are claiming control over your art. And this is now 30% of the revenue that other people are making from your art. And you can take a huge swing at reclaiming it. And it is very clearly the most popular Taylor Swift album, Midnights aside. It just from a streaming perspective, I think it's the one that really sent her into the stratosphere. I myself would have an urgency to get this thing out. the counter case is the one that you made, which is it may be that she felt like in the case of Evermore

and potentially even in the case of Fearless that if you don't really set up an album, that just putting it out, if it's crowded, that it doesn't achieve the heights that it possibly can. I just believe right now she is as big as she's ever been. She has as big of a platform as you could ever want. She has as large of an army that is standing quite literally waiting for her command, and that it would be the perfect moment to put that dagger into the heart of those who claim to own her art elsewhere and reclaim 1989. So that is what I would prioritize. I think she's done enough.

Hey, surprise album drops in Midnight, in folklore that she can. probably now weather the storm. I just, I think she's unbelievably, she is bigger than she was a year ago. And I think her voice and her platform is larger and wider and could set up 1989 for enormous success, especially given that she's going to be out on tour for the next year, we know. And she's very effectively used the tour as a platform to launch an album. She'll have stuff for it. I trust. I'm just interested to see because I think... she's set a remarkably high standard. Nora, you know what would do a really good job of launching 1989 Taylor's version?

Coming on every single album. Well, sure. Style featuring Harry Styles. True. Absolutely. What an astute point. We'll see. Did we get all of our Easter eggs? Yes. I mean, we did.

I think the most purposeful ones we did. Now comes a very interesting. question for you, which is what you would cut. Yeah. Is your answer to this album? No, not at all. Again, like, I think I'm, I'm just, I'm, you know how this works. You get, it's easy, it's, it's, I just want it to all come together.

It's the tension of this whole experiment, yes. And I do think 1989 is the, like, part of this is, is, to be very clear, speaking how Taylor's version works. very well for me. I think she completely succeeded in when she was trying to do here. It's not spotless. There are notes. There are differences. There are places where I'll listen to the originals. As you said, 1989,

this is where she comes for the jugular. And to the extent that there's one to not miss on, this is the one. Maybe it'll be easier because it wasn't quite so long ago. But maybe it'll be harder in some ways

because the experience of hearing that album for the first time is more fresh for people. It's less nostalgic. You need, I think, something really significant up your sleeve to make it feel new and grab people's attention. Now, she certainly doesn't have trouble getting eyeballs on anything that she wants eyeballs on right now. So to your point, that'll be in her favor. I would not cut this album. I very much enjoy this album. But you would replace something for sure with I can see you.

So what's going out? Oh, that's an interesting. That is not how I thought about this question, but that's a good way to think about it. So if I can see... The thing is, is I don't wish that I can see you had made original speak now. I enjoy I can see you now.

I think more than I would have been. It just... I'm trying to get you to tell me you don't like innocent and that you want to cut innocent because I know you don't like innocent. No, I like innocent. Well, I want to cut innocent. But, but, okay, hold on, hold on, hold on. I put innocent on on the cut list as well.

Okay. I like the original, not because, or I liked the, original. The Kanye thing feels so weird now that I just like can't deal with it. And that's the only reason. Yeah, it's just too weird and cringy for me. I want it out. I used to enjoy the condescension of it, even though I think it feels totally mismatched

with what happened and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That was a much more fun set of emotions and meta-narrative. than I think exists now. I don't like blame, you know, it's a song she wrote. It's a song that was on the album. She was going to re-record it. That's totally fine.

It's a weird one now. So I would cut that. I also, look, I'm glad you like electric touch. I won't cut it because that would be tough for you. Oh. It does not do a whole lot for me. Wow. I, that's surprising to me because what that means is you're like defending Superman and ours.

Superman is fun. I was trying to cut a vault song to challenge myself to edit the new material. Okay. Because I think it is easier to say, oh, this thing that I've heard tons and tons of times before, we can get rid of. So you've cut full of school. In reality, I would probably cut, I guess I'd cut Superman, which is sort of a fun song, but sort of a weird song. Yeah. Before I would actually cut electric touch.

But it's like her 187th most stream song or something. Like it's not at the top of the catalog. But there are some fierce defenders of it. And go forth soldiers. That's great. I just, it does not, who that song is about and what situation that song is about makes absolutely no sense to me.

Whatever. So, but you would keep Foolish One over Electric Touch? Foolish one. Yes. It's just, just for the time capsule bit of it. It brings a smile to my face to listen to and to think about little baby Taylor writing it and recording it. It's really precious. It's a little silly. It's delightful.

Not to say that it's going to be on a ton of playlists for me. but I have an emotional response to it that I do not have for electric touch. Okay. I also just, I had high hopes for the Fallout Boy Club. Listen to you. I don't know. I wish they'd done the,

the, um, though we didn't start the fire after this came out so they could include the massive cultural moment of Taylor Lawner doing a backflip on the Erestore stage. I dug it. I don't care. care what anybody says. I think this is a good song. What would you cut? You said

innocent? Innocent, it just doesn't sit with me and Superman and ours. I'm just not going to listen to. And I didn't feel like they got better with the re-record or more interesting or more compelling. So those are the ones that I think I I don't, I'm not going to listen to foolish one

that often, realistically. It's not going to make the list of stuff to listen to. But I do really enjoy the other vault songs. I'm very pleased with this collection. I'm going to give Electric Touch some more time on your behalf. I'm really shocked how much that song resonated with you. I dig it.

All right. I'm into it. That's great. I'm happy for you. Maybe I'll be happy for me sometime soon too when I listen to it a bunch more and find something new in it. Hiddleston Award? What's your answer here? This one to me is pretty clear.

And it's the lyric change in Better Than Revenge. which, spoiler alert, I do not like. Make the case. I'll make the opposite case. First of all, it's nice to try to do something nice. It's nice to have a friend. The generosity of this act of changing the words to Taylor is something that is kind, and reflects who she wants to be.

It's hard to get too far up in flames about that. I just, look, we talked about it when we speculated what was going to happen. And I said, I really hope she, hoped she didn't change it, which is that in real life, sometimes you say things that aren't nice. And many women, myself included, have had moments where we've been critical of our sisters in a way that does not reflect our better instincts. And that's real. And I enjoy the reflection of that and the original song.

She's spoken about the line and said, I was 18 when I wrote better than revenge. That's the age you are when you actually think someone can take your boyfriend. To me, that is all she has ever needed to say about it. We understand. You thought it was over. You really felt like it was over. I'm not annoyed at her for doing it.

I'm annoyed at like the context that would have led her to believe that it wasn't over. I just don't understand why someone would... I mean, I feel like the fan base agrees with this. So the super online part of her, in theory, should be seeing that stuff. I give her the benefit of the doubt that she did this out of just sort of wanting to be, kind and empathetic and show some growth. That in some ways is admirable. I'm not quite as concerned as, you know,

I've seen some stuff written about you're sort of cleansing the past and pretending that you've never made mistakes by doing this. I don't, she's talked about it, right? She's defined it as something that she evolved her thinking on and didn't think was nice and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. it just should be over

and I mean Olivia Rodrigo a weekish ago puts out a great song called Vampire And every girl I ever talked to

told me you were bad bad news You called them crazy God I hate the way I called them crazy to Which includes a line about You know I hate the way I called

other women Crazy too Like you should be able to acknowledge that these are thoughts that people have and experiences that people have. And the idea that, like, the mattress line is so, you know,

a line that you just, a line that you just cannot cross is very strange to me. So I am tisk-tisking the forces in the world that made her think that this was necessary. Okay. But I suppose it's not that deep. But I think it is that deep. I think it's those forces in the world that drove this.

I mean, look, this started, with the song Mean, where left sets hurt her feelings in the way that he spoke out publicly about her voice. Then she's the recipient of bullying from Kim and Kanye, which is part of what makes innocent so weird now. Her victimhood, and I do think she was a victim in that situation, was the source material for a lot of the first half of reputation, right? Then fast forward to Red Taylor's version,

and now she's the one dishing it out. Like, it reignited the legend of the red scarf. 10 minute all too well, the video. Let's be honest, Jake Gyllenhaal took a lot of abuse online. She was selling red scarves and fuck the patriarchy keychains, right? I mean, he can handle it. Okay, but say if the line is still in the song, is anyone going after Camilla Bell online?

Yes. Yes. And they did at the time. They did at the time. They did at the time. And that's maybe something to talk about. I mean, I'm not talking about a few crazies here and there. And if you want to make the argument that that's what she's trying to prevent,

then like I'm all for that. But that's the argument I'm making. I don't think that like, I don't think that her Instagram's getting flooded in that kind of way. I think the, maybe I'm giving people too much credit. I don't think people I think people get it. I think people know that she's not the villain in this. But most people who are sane

are not making these comments online anyway. Like we say, oh, Jake could handle it. Are you sure about that? Oh, Camilla can handle the occasional crazies who drop. Are we sure about that? I mean, this is like, you can't say that some abuse is okay in some cases, I think. I mean, it's like content moderation on social media.

Where do you draw the line exactly? And with the video with Jillyn Hall, she didn't do anything to stop it. Was that her responsibility? I don't think so. But I don't think on reflection that you can sit by silently and then turn around and feel slighted when the same thing happens to you. And that's why she got up on stage in Minneapolis, general of her fan army, and called for a full retreat on John Mayer.

And by changing this lyric in better than revenge, she's walking the talk that she, you know, set on stage in Minneapolis. Yes, I miss it too. Like, we all miss the line. The song is not as good matches. I mean, it's a creative replacement, but like it's not better.

Like, she is still the villain in this song. It doesn't make it a song that's like. But she's 33 years old. Life is too short and too good for this shit. Like, it's an active self-oper. hold that, but like, what is the difference? What is the difference in people not going online and making comments? She has had to bear the impact of people coming online and making comments.

And I think at 33 years old, rather than... No, no, no, no. I'm not saying that, like, what is the difference in terms of how someone would feel if they go through that or not? That is very... Having the mattress line in the song, Removing that does not make this a song that is flattering towards its subject, right? It doesn't, but it, look, Jake took a lot of shit. The fan base, there are fringes of this fan base that aren't always kind. It's why she had to call for kindness. And I think this is an act of self-awareness and contrition and grace,

and let's let her use her platform to signal to people that you can make a men's, that you don't have to carry a grudge. And that as she sings earlier on this very album, you don't got to be so mean. Why you got to be so mean? Yeah, it doesn't work for me. I applaud what she said about Dear John, definitely. It doesn't make the song better. I think it makes the song worse.

Yeah. I'm just not sure that this was a problem she needed to fix. I'm not at all criticizing the impulse. I think the impulse is if maybe overdoing it coming from a place of empathy and wanting to do the right thing. And, you know, I'm never going to be critical of that, right? I just think I disagree with the idea that she had a wrong. here that she needed to write. Because I think if that's the case, then the upshot is let's write over all of our weaker moments.

Let's write over all of the times when jealousy and hurt got the best of us. I think it was the slut shaming, Laura. I think it was the slut shaming. I think she felt like you could make a case. really common way of acting out those feelings. But she's the biggest star in the world. She doesn't have to do it. And guess what? You can still sing she's better known for the things that she does on the mattress. When you sing it, this is one of those roll down the windows and sing it in a car full of girls song. And I know because I got

two of them that do it all the time. You can still sing the words. But it's just not coming from her. So then why is Paramore back to playing misery business? Why is the Olivia Rodrigo line? good, which I think it is. I wouldn't have criticized Taylor for not changing it. I'm celebrating the fact that she's sending a message as the biggest star in the world by changing it. That's more important than replicating it. It's what's behind it.

It's a message of contrition and grace in a moment in time in which people are pulling each other apart. I want to agree with you. I really, really, really want to. And I think the piece of it where it's coming from a place of wanting to do the right thing and wanting to preach kindness. She's leading.

She's not preaching. She's leading. I don't know that she, like, I think she's trying to, I just don't know that this does that. I don't, I don't think that there was a concern of, I don't think people were going to take this and run with it in a way that was going to be negative.

I think most people get that she's talked about it and that it reflects. growth that's important in realizing that slut shaming reflects more on the person who's doing it than who someone's saying that about. And that's such a common experience that I think there's a value in getting it from her and then hearing her reflect on it and say that it was wrong but still acknowledging that as part of the tech.

Again, I'm here for the counter argument, right? That like it's more valuable to see her change her stance. I don't feel that just because I don't think that anyone lives up to that standard all the time. So I think it's more valuable to acknowledge it as a part of life and something that should be worked towards getting better than doing. But I think having it is more effective in doing that than not. I suspect she saw what happened with all too well, 10-minute version with Jake Jillen Hall and said, I don't want any part of that this time around. And I don't want any part of it with John Mayer, and I don't want any part of it through this song.

And I'm going to hold myself accountable for making sure that doesn't happen. And you can't change the lyrics to Dear John. There's not something there because otherwise it's not the song. Right. Dear Steve. But you can change this lyric and even though it sort of undercuts the song, I think it amplifies a way of being. But the best thing that's come of it is all of the TikToks and memes about Julie Andrews mattress surfing and the princess diaries. So for those I will be grateful. Yeah. It's a healthy discussion. What is Peak Taylor, Nora? Peak Taylor, Taylor, Taylor is the three Taylor's. No doubt.

Hanging out and doing backflips. I mean, I'm just, I'm really happy for Taylor Lautner. I'm happy for Taye Lottner. I'm happy for Taylor Swift. I'm happy they're all friends. I'm really jazzed about this whole thing. That is unequivocally the Peak Taylor moment is the Taylor, Taylor. I just can't believe there's two people named Taylor.

Lottner who were married to one another. It's fantastic. They're really fun. Yeah. I spent some time on TAYLotner's TikTok. Oh, God. They are really, like, they're posting. They are really posting. That's, that's, you get a lot of insight into the life and times of both Taylor Lottner's.

I think that's lovely. I think we sort of covered the next album appetizer. It's 1989. It's got to be 1989. the only thing that could get in the way of it is the same thing that got in the way of it last time, which is she goes on some intense spurt of creativity and vomits up something

as magical as midnight. Yeah, so in my notes when we talked about this, I was going to bring up the question of if the timing of 1989 is going to be affected by really, really needing it to be a big splash or if it wasn't ready to be quite so impactful, would there be any value in, you know,

do you combine that with reputation? Do you do something so that she's not oversaturating, just what she's putting out into the world? You have convinced me that that should not be priority and that 1989 should have a full rollout, be part of this moment, come out probably in the fall. It's very clearly the thing that's coming next.

So congratulations. You convinced me. For the record, I was going to bring that up, but I think we've covered it. Best lyric? Yeah, I was going to say, is there anything new that changed the way that you think

about the lyrics on this album? So, no, not really. Canonically, the best speak-now lyric is made a rebel of a careless man's careful daughter. I believe that remains unchanged. However, what would Cleopatra be like if she grew up in a small town? I saw he sent a tweet about that.

I was like, oh, I know what's coming. What does it mean? What do you mean? Jennifer Lawrence on Hot ones. What do you mean? What do you mean by shaking out? What are you doing? What do you mean?

What do you mean? What do you mean? What do you mean? Wasn't the whole thing with Cleopatra that she was so big and ambitious and powerful that Egypt could not contain her? Like, Bixby, Oklahoma? I don't know what that means. I'm incredibly curious to hear more.

I mean, look, if anything's going to get in the way of 1989 in terms of a creative spurt, what about the next concept album is just. just Cleopatra, going to the Five and Dime and the local post office and living her small town bucolic life, what is this movie I would like to see? I have absolutely no idea what this phrase is supposed to confer, but I am fascinated by it. I think she probably didn't either, which is why it didn't totally make this album. Yeah, I'm not sure it's good writing, but I love it. Yeah. Great. Great. Are you ready to grade the album?

Yeah, let's do it. I mean, I need to hear yours. And don't you dare change what you thought, because I know that you felt somewhat defensive about your criticisms, which I think are super valid. I don't view them as criticisms. I think you have been standing for the energy. That's where it's coming from. I just want it to work. Exactly. So I don't, I want you to hang in and grade it just as you would have. I gave it a B Wow Which is pretty low for me For a Taylor album

Wow Wow Okay why is that so wow That's the lowest grade You've ever given anything Anytime anywhere any place I mean I've given No really

Okay Yeah I think I stand by that It's not a bad grade by any mean Like I mean beyond more than passing I think this was good. This is the closest I've felt to, okay, we cleared the bar. Yeah.

I don't know that... I can see you is a song that I love and that I'm going to listen to a ton. Yeah. On the strength of that vault song alone. Yeah. Which is not the only one I like. I enjoy when Emma falls in love quite a bit.

I can see you goes right in the like legit mix. like people coming over to my house this weekend, that will be on. Yes, absolutely. And I think, and by the way, I think that will be true next summer, right? I think that song will have some tail and it will last and it will hold up. And it's just really fun. And I like that it's a little bit different. Yeah. It's not, it's something that it doesn't have a carbon copy or anything really close to that in her catalog, which is a hard thing to say. say in the mid-200s, right, in terms of original songs. So that's a huge one. For me, it's doing a lot of the work.

Because I do try to evaluate these things, not just based on, am I a person who loves Taylor Swift going to support her in this endeavor, which beyond my wanting to do that just because I like her? I think is is commendable in terms of opening people's eyes to elements of the music business, understanding ideas around ownership and art. It's all really, really, really good. But I also think that one of the cool things about Taylor is that she always gives. She always makes it worth your while. And I think she's done that, but it was a little closer than usual.

And that to me is because I don't love, I'm not super, super high on the other vault songs other than I can see you. A question I probably need a little bit more time on is, is I can see you my favorite vault song, maybe other than all two all 10,

which I think... Yeah, I don't count that as a... I do too. I do too. That's not a bald song. I think it probably is. I bet you think about me. Yeah.

Super fun and great. Big, big, big, big, big for me. Then I was too late. Bet you think about me. Nothing new you like. Nothing new I love. Yep. And if we're not counting better man in a similar way to we're not counting all too well,

I think that's the, those are the three that we would talk about. For sure. But it may end up being my favorite vault song. Yeah. That said, the red vault is my favorite vault. Yeah, I think that's a very reasonable. fact that I think that changes the vocal development in terms of number of tracks, there are more tracks that I think it helps on, but the ones where it just loses something

that I was really attached to in the originals to me are such heavy hitter songs in Dear John and mean that I will feel a pull to the originals. You're going to cheat. So hand to heart. that's how I feel. That was very brave and honest. Thank you. Please still like me.

No, I think you're going to speak for a lot of the fan base and how they feel about it and I think that's okay because you come at this honestly and you come at it from a place of wanting to support her and you will stream the new one a lot.

You will cheat a little bit and that's okay. A lot of people are still cheating, as I told you. Like for every three streams of Red Taylor version, there's one of the old one. For every two of Fearless,

there's one of the old one. She's doing okay. It is still supporting her to talk about it in this way. And I think she's put it out there and it's a totally legitimate discussion. So good on you. I do want to say that

I think you all over me is a really good song from the vault that for me holds up. Great vault song. Yeah, it's a good one. No amount of freedom gets you clean. I've still got you are alone.

My grading of this album is it's a B plus and you will remember that Speak Now is not my favorite Taylor Swift album and I didn't love it originally but the reason that I'm giving it a B plus and I think a higher grade than you are is because

I did this was not an album for me but this process of the re-record helped me actually discover and appreciate the album more so than I did when I first heard it and when you and I went through it for every single album. There is the journey that I'm so, I just, I love the journey. I love watching her growth as a human being, as an artist.

It is in and of itself art. And so there is so much about that journey, the mean narrative arc, the, you know, changing better than revenge and why, because it's tied into so many things that have happened to her since she recorded this album. All of those things I'm totally signed up for. And when you layer in a set of alt tracks, again, led by I Can See You, which I agree with, that I think are awesome and fun.

This was a thoroughly enjoyable experience for me, whereas when we were going to go through Speak Now originally as a part of the original every single album review of her stuff, it was an episode that I was less excited about, in part, I think, because the songs didn't connect with me in the same way as they do now. I completely understand the desire to cheat, and I get it, and I think there's a lot of people who are going to do it. But the fun part of this re-recording process is her revisiting where she was, not just as a human being, but also as an artist. And I think there's not a re-record that is a better reflection of those two things than that.

and speak now Taylor's version. I think that's a great thing to end on. I will say it'll be super fun to hear from people in terms of what their experience was listening to this because you are bringing up a piece that's, I think, kind of an umbrella to all of this, which is just there is no Taylor album that was more important to me

right in the moment it came out than speak now. And I wonder if there will be some varied experiences based on just, I mean, I listened to this thing going on, runs around my high school campus on my iPod touch through crappy Apple headphones that had been floating around my book bag for two years and started to get beat up and frayed and all of that stuff. So very excited, as always, but especially in this case because I think it's really interesting to hear. hear from as many of our listeners as want to talk to us about what their experiences were listening

to Speak Now Taylor's version. This has been every single album, Taylor Schlift. I'm Nora Princiotti. As always, he is Nathan Hubbard. We will be back next week with more Taylor. Thank you to Kai McMullen for her production on this episode and to you for listening.