Every Single Album - Taylor Swift Endorses Kamala Harris and Thoughts on the 2024 VMA's

Episode Date: September 13, 2024

Nora and Nathan talk about Taylor Swift endorsing Kamala Harris this week and speculate as to why she chose this timing to do it (1:00). Then they discuss the 2024 VMA's, including the event basically revolving around Swift (27:56) and the performances from Katy Perry, Chappell Roan, and Sabrina Carpenter (37:30). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up everybody? Syriot Sohey from The Ringer here and I wanted to let you know about a new show that I'm hosting. The Ringer WNBA show. We're breaking down and analyzing the latest happenings in the W, the personalities, the people who make the league as fascinating as it is. And we're going to be featuring some of the best guests and experts from around the league. Tap in with us every Friday through the end of the season over on the Ringer NBA show feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Oh, and welcome to every single album. I'm Nora Princeiati.

And as always, I am back with Nathan Hubbard. And Nathan, I missed you last week. How the heck are you? I missed you too. I missed you too. And a lot of stuff has happened, Nord. This is what we get for taking a week off. The Twitter sphere lights up.

Post debate with Taylor endorsements. We have a VMAs. We have a Charlie XX Brat making website and new stuff coming. Southern Hemisphere Brat Summer has begun. We have. all kinds of things. It just turns out that Pop Girl Summer and Spring

never stops. It never stops. And neither do we. All right. A lot to get to. But the main two things, we're going to get to the VMAs. But first,

a little lady named Taylor Swift had an Instagram post a couple nights ago that drew a lot of attention, didn't she? Well... Your local childless cat, lady making waves on the World Wide Web.

I mean, she'd made waves over the weekend at the U.S. Open. I mean, it is so great to see her out in public being a fan of something else. You just remember that for years, we have not seen her do this. It's why her award show, the POV cam from the VMAs last night on Taylor, was just a must have who we just don't see this animal out in the wild very often. We never see her or have seen her out in the wild with a significant other, at least certainly not during the, you know, locked away years. Let's put it that way.

And she is out unabashedly, having fun, living her best life. And she's endorsing. And so I want to ask you, you probably have questions for me, but I want to ask you, really, because this is the heart of it. We had said earlier on previous episodes, everybody, chill out. She's going to endorse. There's no point in endorsing during the convention. It's August.

People have the attention span, you know, to quote Sabrina Carpenter, a bird flies by and you forget. Like, it's still only September 12th we're recording right now. She endorsed on September 10th. It's going to be a long time, two months until the election. That is an absolute eternity. And I

felt fairly confident that she was holding out for the right moment before voting started or in enough time to tell everybody how to register to vote so that they could, though, again, go then make their choices, right? This was ultimately earlier than her endorsement in 2020. So my question to you is there was a lot of online, but daddy, I love him, you know, all of the fan base that has taken the finger pointing from, but daddy, I love him, that does not seem to remember or absorb and internalize her request that were, I mean,

downright nasty and mean in pushing her to an endorsement. Again, I think feeling some ownership of this human being. I understand where it comes from if you're passionate about something, but really, really loud chatter that accelerated with the Brittany Mahomes stuff. So we can talk about all these things from a sequence of events, but I need to know, do you believe that she went earlier with this? endorsement because of that online pressure? Or do you believe that the plan all along was to endorse post-debate?

I don't think that there was... It doesn't to me... Don't you dare answer this question like Kamala at the debate. Come on. I'm being totally truthful. I don't... Like, I don't really feel like I know necessarily. The one thing that I don't think makes a whole lot of sense is like a longstanding plan

that what made the most sense was that Taylor Swift's specific endorsement was going to come right after the debate. I don't really think that timing it up with a particular event in the campaign cycle. I just have a hard time thinking that these things were going to be coordinated that way. There's been some reporting that the Harris campaign didn't know it was coming. I think that seems pretty credible. I don't really think it, I really don't think it matters that much. I think there are interesting, there are questions that I'm interested in in terms of, you know,

even the way that she wrote that post, which I thought was really articulate and clever and smart. It was. And it put a lot of agency in people's hands and encouraged them to go act, which is great. There are also some parts of it that sort of hinted the process and her decision to do it and her decision to share who she's voting for coming,

at least in part, maybe as a result of the Trump AI images. That I think is interesting, particularly. mess with Taylor's content. Don't mess with the things that Taylor thinks she owns. And she thinks she owns her name, image and likeness. Yeah. Right. Right to her own image. Do not take her own image. This is the Taylor's oldest time. Um, you know, we'd, we'd talk to each other about, come on, she's going to endorse, just be a little patient. It's, let's not get out over our skis here. And I think that was, I think that was clearly right. I do think that, like, I'd had questions about whether it was the events in Vienna

or just personal changes over time, the scope of where she is right now, if there was any chance she might pull back and I'll be truthful with you. That was something I was genuinely sort of fearful. Pull back is one thing. Go Trump or is another.

Did you just mean pull back? Like that was always, that was always absurd. Yes. But there's a, there's a concern that I had I had felt that sometimes, and I think this is particularly something that comes often from people who exist within a lot of privilege and also who have, you know, whether it's financial interest or just fans coming from large swaths of different populations with different views, I think sometimes there is a dangerous tendency to pretend that you can ignore politics. I think, frankly, the way that Patrick Mahomes has talked about politics over the last couple of days is, to me, kind of disappointing because I don't believe that, yeah, I don't believe that political engagement is something that a person can really abdicate. I don't think that it is a logically coherent statement to say, I don't pay attention to someone's political beliefs or the way that they see the world. or what they want to see reflected in the people who control the world. I just pay attention to how they act when they're around me and how they treat people.

Because I think that people's political beliefs in the way that they try to, the type of world that they try to create around them and use their power and their platform, particularly when that's a significant amount of power and a significant platform, that affects people. That is how you treat people. So to me, if there was a worry, it was not ever that, you know, the woman who was in Miss Americana was going to show up somewhere in a MAGA hat. It was just that, you know, it is scary.

It's hard to put yourself out there when you know that there is going to be inevitable criticism, also praise, but it's a tough thing and it's a thing that gets ugly in a lot of ways. But I just don't really think that that's something that someone can abdicate, at least in a way, that's going to satisfy me. and I worried that that was tempting her. And I'm really heartened to see that it wasn't. And... Go ahead. I think that there are two really big events

that are not unrelated that have happened over the summer. And the first is one that you already referenced, which was the plotted attacks on her shows in Vienna. And the second was the assassination attempt of Trump. And I say those two things are not unrelated because the temperature is about as high as it could possibly be in the country right now. And I think that was reflected in Britney Mahomes' like of the Trump post or whatever the Maga post was. And the way that that started to unfurl across

the fan base and lots of, hey, Taylor, are you with her now? Are you show us your colors? Show us. A lot of boil came out of that. And I understand your point. And I don't even think, Nora, that I disagree with it. But what I look at her statement, and then Mahomes, not coincidentally, the next day coming out and talking about voter registration and the neutrality of it and why at the end of the day, it is okay to, as Chapel Rhone said, I have lots of. of Republican family members that I love in the Midwest, I disagree with them. I still love them. I try to make a change. Like, I saw this as an attempt to just slightly turn down the temperature, not just on themselves, because yeah, they were getting a lot of heat and, you know, a lot of online

stuff and a lot of questions, right? But to say, hey, we can have our differences, but we can still love each other. And you can argue very strongly. And you can, you know, if somebody has extreme differences, you can also not be friends with those people. But it is possible to be an American who votes a different way and still go to the U.S. Open together. And I don't, that I think is a subtle text and an intentional communication between Taylor, Travis, Brittany, Patrick Mahomes. And maybe, and that's why I think the coordination and the time was pushed by the buzz and by the noise. There certainly was always a plan to go out,

but I think it had gotten to a point where if you and I are recording this podcast and the debates have happened and she still hasn't said anything and Mahomes is taking questions about, you know, being in the box, like it's going to spill over just because that's what this fan base and it does and the temperature of the country, generally speaking,

is very high. So I think it's a little hyperbole to say she's leading. and that they were leading in showing that you, but I think this was intentional. I might have misunderstood your question in the sense that I think there is, I agree with you that I think the timing is not pure coincidence in the sense that she responded in a way that stemmed some intensity online

and answered questions that a lot of people had in a timely way. I don't think it had to do with the debate, but I think it had to do with what was happening amongst the things. fans, in part, which doesn't mean that she wasn't going to do it at a different time. She's going to get in the Kansas City Chief's box at home or away almost every Sunday with Brittany Mahomes in the stadium. And after that first Thursday night game with Baltimore, then they go to New York, like, all of the questions and the speculation, it's just like, it's time to, you know,

to snip this in the bud, nip this in the bud. And yeah, Brittany didn't help with the liking the post. But on the other hand, like, you know. Can I tell you, maybe I'm sort of working through this, but I don't really think it's the liking the post necessarily that does give me a weird feeling about it because I do think there's a difference between like what Chapel Rhone said about I have relatives who I love, I have friends who I love who have major political differences. We can find at least some personal common ground and that's how most people live. I mean, that's, you know, I have examples of that in my own life and I think most of us do. The thing that I have an issue with is using the idea that it doesn't matter. There's a difference between being able to navigate it and saying that it doesn't matter.

And the particular energy that I find a little bit insidious is, and I think Brittany and Patrick are guilty of this, which is why I don't totally buy that the four of them are sort of, in cooperation trying to make a point here about how we all should get along. The thing that I find a little tough is the pushback to criticism that is to call everybody haters

to say, you're not happy about something in your own life. What kind of a childhood must you have had or whatever, blah, blah, blah, she posted on Instagram, that you're going to criticize me. Yeah.

Because to me what that's... Because it's like you don't understand that there are real stakes to this. Yes. Yes. And that too is reflected in the, you know, I'm just not going to talk about it. I'm just not going to get involved. If you really want to not get involved, you have to actually not get involved. And if you're a public person and you like something on the internet, it's over.

Sorry. But you actually, I mean, you and I don't actually know who Patrick Mahomes is voting for. No. And Patrick did not go out and like tweets. His wife did. And that's a thing. you think, let me ask you this, do you think that, I mean, Patrick and Britney and Taylor and Travis have talked about this subject in the last week? Endorsement, the drama that was coming up,

Taylor getting heat, being in the same box. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I believe there was some reporting somewhere. And this was the thing that that kind of made, this was the thing that actually had me the most worried was there was a story somewhere and I'm forgetting where and I'm sorry about that, that Taylor and Briton. had an agreement to not talk about politics. But what do we know? I mean, honestly, look, could Tree Paine be pulling some, some dark arts magic somewhere and figuring out some way for the four of them to kind of do a little dance, perhaps?

Also, maybe they just showed up to a box somewhere together and jumped around. I think the temperature got pretty damn high after Sunday. I think the temperature got really high. And, you know, I'm not surprised that Taylor just said, fuck it, let's go. And she wrote something that was very eloquent and that was direct and that was rooted in her rights as a human being. And the rights that she believes all, meaning her sort of name and image likeness stuff, the rights that she believes all human beings are entitled to, many of which are about LGBTQ rights and women's reproductive freedom. And then she also landed on this, you got to get out and vote. Because in so many ways, that debate, she understood, I'm sure, intuitively what the post-debat polls are telling us,

which is that there's not a lot of needle moving on people's opinions on this stuff. It's going to be about turnout. And the fact that 24 hours after she posted that link, and by the way, I hope she posts that link every damn day from now until November 8, 400 plus thousand people went and registered to vote is astonishing. But I think it's 400,000 plus people clicked the link. Click the link. And the voter registration numbers were like 30,000-ish. But that's still, again, like, there are swing states where the 2020 margins of victory

were like 6,000 votes. These things are so razor thin. It absolutely matters. Every day. I mean, look, you look at democracies around the world, multi-racial, multi-ethnic democracies, like South Africa, Switzerland, like these places have historically had higher voter turnout, right? And if there's apathy that's set in, if there's, you know, whatever it is, I do think there is something patriotic about facilitating people and encouraging people to educate themselves, one, and to make a decision and actually exercise that right, because it is. in so many countries in this world, not a right that exists for lots of human beings.

So look, I just think, I think there is some good stuff that has spilled out of this. Patrick Mahomes, the next day, was inevitably going to be asked about this when they showed up. He showed up to his press conference because Taylor had endorsed.

And so I don't mind Patrick staying out of the fray. I hear your point on Brittany, which is, like, you can't talk about, yeah, you can't claim independence and then when you know you have a public platform, go out and do it. You're either in it or you're out of it, but you can't straddle the line. I agree with you. But I will say, look, like, I think we're having this conversation because we are two people who are

deeply interested in this person and care and want to see her do what we think is the right thing. And we're curious. Kamala or Taylor? Taylor. Okay. Both perhaps. Taylor. I really, like, I honestly, I don't know. We're working through a bunch of different possibilities. But the other thing that I think is that it doesn't really matter. She did the thing that she needed to do. As we just talked about, more than 300,000 people went. Some of them registered to vote for the first time. Some of them made sure to check that they were registered to vote. That's going to matter. She said who she was voting for in clear terms. She said why. She told people what they could do about it. Like, I don't really care that much how

she got there. I may think it's interesting, right? Because like, we're fans. This is every single album. We're talking about it. Yeah. But I don't really think that like, if we are kind of assessing the morality of her decision that it's really that salient to me, this election is a big deal. And she did a thing that helped. And it's kind of end of story. I want to make the point about the politics of it, though, and the timing of it, which might matter, which is that I think it might have been politically even better to wait a while. And I think that the impatience of the fan base. Like longer from now. Yes. Yes, because people are fucking dory. And they forget. And two months is a long ass time and keeping up to sustained energy. I mean, I said it, you know, when people worry about the

convention, look, they're going to wait. There is going to be an inevitable dip in Kamala's numbers because the honeymoon period is going to end. And when that happened, there's going to be calls for some energy. The polls are going to start to even out. That's what's, it's what is happening. And the question is, how do you sustain that energy, make sure that everybody registers, but that then everybody votes. And I actually think that the ideal time for her to have done this might have been closer to the election. Now, if she once a week talks about go register to vote, and by the way, last night at the VMAs, she told everybody to go register to vote. So it suggests that it might be a daily thing for this woman, in which case, Godspeed, great job. But I think if she's only going to

make a few sets of pointed comments, it might have been politically better to the cause to wait a little while longer to get closer to election day so that that energy could sustain. And I do think that the buzz and the wine moms and all the names in, but daddy I love him, that that had an impact on the timing of this announcement because I think for her own personal situation while she's on vacation, all the speculation about who she's sitting next to in the box and the stuff being thrown at them homes,

I think she just wanted to lower the temperature, get that out and show, okay, I've said my piece. Maybe you do, maybe don't know those people's politics, but guess what, I'm going to be sitting in the box with them. and that in and of itself is an important thing to say to the world. Yeah. From her perspective. I don't necessarily disagree with you,

but I honestly think that that is a problem for the Harris Walls campaign and not for Taylor Swift. I think she might have timed it in a way that made some amount of sense for what she personally was dealing with. Maybe it was the heat online. Maybe it was a little bit the aftermath of the, the AI pictures and still wanting to not let that. Yeah, not let that percolate forever and ever.

She did the thing that she needed to do. Like, I really am always going to come back to that. I do think that it is now up to the campaign to figure out, okay, cool, you have a celebrity surrogate, maybe. You certainly have someone who's offered an endorsement. This is, you know, a really, really important one. this is probably the number one one that you would want. Yeah.

See if you can do it. See if you can do something. But when we talk about, you know, in terms of going back to that scene in the documentary where she's talking about her regrets from 2016, and I think that is a scene that was being revisited a lot online. And I think there was... Unfairly, she was always going to endorse, Nora, right? You thought she might have been a trenching.

Yes, probably. But I don't think it was absurd that people felt a little uneasy about it. Do you think that the pressure on her online was warranted, was justified? Like in that regard, I sort of understand where Chapel is, and we'll talk about this later. Like, Chapel is starting to teach people

and reset the boundaries between artist and fan. She did it. Last night at the VMAs, she's starting to say, no, you do not own me. And that is what Taylor said in But Daddy, love him. And the fan base does not seem to be able to get that. They don't trust her. There's a difference between, there's a difference between, like, I don't really even have a problem with some of the, like, the, you know, boycott, don't stream her songs, whatever. Like, I'm not doing that. I think it's a little silly. But if you want to take an action that you use

your money or your time or whatever to sort of vote with your feet, then fine. go do it. To the extent that I think something was a little unwarranted, there's a certain, there's a certain style of online rhetoric that is just so over the top. And like, Taylor Swift, you've betrayed me beyond my while. Like, you don't know what she's going to do, right? So yes, I think that is way over the top. But like, welcome to the internet. Why did they not trust her to talk about, you know, they didn't trust her to do the right thing in Vienna when she clearly had something that she was trying to protect herself, but even more acute,

if she was just trying to protect herself, she would have bailed out of London too. But she was at least trying to protect the fans in Vienna. But I think there's a very big difference between being like, like, I know, I was having private conversations with plenty of people I know being like, do you think she's going to do it? Like, something feels a little,

something feels a little weird. Like, could she actually not? It would be crazy if she did. Like, I don't, I felt some of that. Like, I don't think that. unwarranted or strange, honestly. I think the... It's only September 12th.

Yes. There's always the October surprise. The proper default expectation was that she was always going to do this. Yeah. I think some amount of questioning whether that was an absolute slam dunk, and that is in part based on who she's spending her time with,

to me, that's like fair and warranted. I think there's a certain tone to it that was just way over the top. and she probably deserved a little bit more benefit of the doubt than that. Yeah. I thought the tone of her statement was wonderful, and we cannot move on from this topic without acknowledging what was the most important thing,

which was signing the fucking thing, love and hope, childless cat lady. What a masterpiece. What I was thinking about is, like, the day that Little Benjamin Button, the third, mewing in his crate shows up to the set of the me music video. I mean, that's why he was mewing. I mean, who could listen to me without, yeah. He was trying to jump in and not let this happen, not let this be the single.

But he's just a wee kitten signing in for work, trying to do a good job, trying to just steal some scenes and go home. And then overnight, his entire life changes. He's on the cover of Time magazine. His face is part of like a potentially election impacting. 100% it is. Political statement. Like Benjamin Button the cat is going to save democracy.

Well, look, I wonder if Kamala had not completely dunked all over Trump that night. And she did. would she have come out with the endorsement then? I wonder if she had just determined, no matter what, she was going to do it, insert the endorsement into the commentary because if for some reason Kamla did not do well, that it would provide some air cover,

and in the event that she did, as she did, that it would accelerate the news cycle and sort of intensify the blast radius. Yeah, or maybe the stars just come kind of aligned, right? She's dealing with some of this heat online. Then the debate happens. Girl, the stars never aligned for this woman.

She is intentional about everything that she does, in particular everything that she does publicly. On the VMAs last night, we're going to get to it. She's wearing spaceships on her dress. That was intentional. Being intentional about things doesn't mean that you can't notice an opportunity and seize it, right? Yeah.

The timing matter to her. It wasn't just like, okay, it just sort of happened. This was, yeah. Yeah, but if she's, if she's planning to endorse, she's still figuring out the right moment, but then she's noticing what's happening online, realizes there's a moment coming in the campaign where there's already a certain amount of momentum

and just goes, you know what, this is the time hits and let's go. Like, that's entirely possible to me too. Well, I will say this. There was a time around the Grammys when I thought she used that platform in a slightly over-commercialized way that took some of the oxygen out of the room

of some of the other nominees and artists who were honored that night. I am so happy to see her from Thursday night football through to New York and the U.S. Open and going out and having dinners with Travis publicly to doing the just, I thought,

just, you know, chef's kiss-worded endorsement to showing up at the VMAs. I think she has played, played this extraordinarily well. It has been, I just well played and whether that was a Taylor or a Tree Pane thing or both of them together, who cares? I just think it's been very, very well navigated, not an easy thing to do, especially when last night, that award show, Nora, was basically completely constructed around her. The whole thing was about her. The P-O-V-Chi

cams were about her. Every award was about her. Kaya has just reminded me that they did not televise artist of the year, which she got, because I guess she got too many other awards. This entire thing was about Taylor Swift. It only existed to celebrate. Like Carol G. Everybody came over and kissed the ring during the performance. It was crazy, Nora. It was, yeah. Unfortunately, I don't think it qualifies as the voluptuous Megan Awards, though I loved that idea from host Magna Stalian. It was the camera on Taylor Swift Awards, which I have to be honest,

suits my personal interest. So I had a great time. I'm fine with it. It was great. Hey, Postie's gone. Here comes Suki. All right. What is this?

This is interesting. Yeah, all of it was just a fascinating. I mean, these things started, and I was like, why do these exist again? Like, why do we care? Nobody watches MTV. MTV's not even a thing for fuck's sake. Like, nobody watched all these videos on MTV.

They watched them on YouTube or some other platform. Nobody goes to. So why do these things actually exist? 600 hours of ridiculousness reruns had to be consumed in order to pay for this event. But it is the ridiculousness of it, isn't it? It isn't the Grammys. it's more, it's bolder than the Grammys.

It's more, it's just sillier than the Grammys. No, it's just a show. Like, the VMAs is just an awards show, right? But the fans are fake for fuck's sake. And everybody knows in advance what awards they're getting. Like, the whole thing is like a Truman show for music. I'm not even sure one person sang last night.

No, a couple people saying. Chapples Mike was on. Chapel's Mike was on. Katie's was on too. Katie's was on. Katie's was on. Mike was on Katie Perry. Do you think Katie Perry when she was doing the flips and the running and hanging like a goddamn, you know, Cirque de Soleil acrobat?

Do you think that she was singing the whole time when she was upside down and shit? Okay, no. But I do think she was. Do you think she was sitting when she was on the hoo-ha cam? Did we need a hoo-ha cam? Okay. Can I actually? Let's talk about this for a second.

Let's talk about this. I don't know if I'm just like turning into a prude or something. It was a lot. It was too much. It was simply too much. I think so I had a friend over and we watched it together and we were both just like, can we all agree that this is too much? We no longer live in an era where this is actually shocking.

No. And therefore it's just not interesting. It's just everybody looking at people's crotches. And I for one could do with less. Yes, and I will say the reason that I thought Sabrina Carpenter won the night was because there was history

from the VMAs woven into her performance that made it less absurd and shocking if you understood the context, right? She showed up in a Madonna dress. The end of that video with all the moon men around her was very much

like a Madonna video. She started hanging from the ceiling like Britney Spears and the lucky video. So when she ends up making out with the alien, she's done some Madonna stuff, she's done some Britney stuff. You can understand that shocking VMA moment when the two of them made out, and it was shocking. It was sort of campy and funny and silly and a, but a tribute in a good way. That I felt like was a really interesting performance. As we get to Katie Perry, like, man, she continues to try really hard. And I'm rooting so hard for her because I love her music. But it

felt at times like she was trying too hard. Am I wrong? So I actually really liked Katie Perry's performance. I respected the hell out of the fact that she was just like, look, woman's world is not doing it. But I'm Katie fucking Perry. And I'm going to play the songs that I know you guys love.

And I'm going to remind everybody that when I made songs that were really fucking good, they were really fucking good. Yes, agree. And I was super into that. Why do we have to have the hoo-ha cam? Yeah. I, like, right, right.

Honestly, that's really my only major note is just like I could have done with 40% less crotch shot and a little less scissoring. Yeah. But other than that, I really thought it was like a noticeably high point amidst a period where there have been mostly lows for Katie Perry. So in general, I thought she had a good night. Okay, that's fair. I mean, it's funny, she starts with Dark Horse and there's that line,

don't make me your enemy. And Taylor Swift is right in front of her. And you're like, well, actually, you didn't. It didn't work out. I was like, this is the wrong opener. Yeah, but Taylor was like, Taylor was really into and was dancing. Taylor was great. Although, do you think that Jack Antonoff was like being rude?

I don't know. I don't know. I don't want to speculate. Jack Antonoff is a wonderfully nerdy little man who, unless he's playing a bleacher song really is not the one who's going to flow the rhythm through the body. He flows the rhythm through the fingers, okay? And they play the keys, sometimes too many synths,

too many keys, sometimes the perfect amount of keys, perfect amount of synths, sometimes the right guitar. That's how Jack flows the music. So I don't blame him whatsoever. I don't think we need to look into drama there. If you want to look at drama last night, let's talk about the Carpin triangle

that was on full display Camilla Cabello Sean Mendez hold on hold on I'm not I want to talk about Katie a little bit more Oh we're not done with Katie

No I need to know what you think about the fact that she noticeably did not adopt the Nathan Hubbard philosophy on choice of words

around the phrasing of serving C serving C word what is it that you say all the time? That is a thing that I've said, yes? Not Katie. Katie went for it.

Tell me, because now you're about... In her accepting speech. Okay, okay. When she was talking about, first of all, I did think that she was like trying to do a slam poetry kind of thing when, like, maybe not intentionally, but when she was giving her, when she was accepting the Vanguard Award and was like, like, talking about, talking about her. career and saying all the stuff, but her cadence was sort of strange. And then she was like,

I did this on the first day of my period. Oh, yeah. Yeah, look, Katie has decided she is going to share everything and say everything. And that's what she's going to do. Okay. And she's going to bring up Legolas and make out with him on stage. And she just was going to speak her truth last night. And I don't, you know, there's a part of me that thinks, to your point, that her team, She's aware that the stuff she's been trying hasn't been working great. And I think she probably has huddled with everyone and said, fuck it, I'm just going to go be me. And that was the vibe that I got from the red carpet interview in advance.

And it was the vibe that I got from the show. And so, yeah, you're right. That show reminded me of the Vegas residency show that I went to where I was like, right, Katie Perry is awesome. And she's fun. And you don't have to think too much. and you do not have to take her seriously, but you've got to respect it.

And man, I guess I did respect the hustle. I respected the flips and the interperson jumps. I did not respect the spacing of the male dancers who were just out of sync and chaotic on teenage dream. Come on, boys. The number of male backup dancers in this entire show, that industry must be three.

riving. Yes. They were everywhere. I mean, it probably stems from the Katie Perry, Taylor Swift, original Bad Blood, which is like, fuck, we need more dancers on call. Well, guess what? There were a lot of dancers on site last night. They have the Eminem lookalikes. They have all of Katie's dancers. And M&M lookalikes, all of Chapples, Knights and Armour. Yes. Right. I mean. Yes, Knights and Armour is probably better than Sword guys. Sword guys, fine. There are a lot of dancers. And honestly, on the backstage cams, the dancers were getting. a little too excited. I'm happy for the dancers, but they were really the adrenaline of having just been on television and in front of all of the fake fans that were clapping and screaming because

they were paid to stand in the front rows and do that overhyped a few a bit that got in the way of my enjoyment of some of the actual artists that I wanted to see on the backstage cam, but details, details. I'm sorry, that happened to you. Look, Sabrina kind of won up extraterrestrial with her alien. Yeah. It was a thing. I was like, all right. Yeah, I bet.

Katie, you didn't even have the best alien in the night. Katie should have gone home feeling like she had a very good night. I do wonder if she had a moment in the car where she was like, damn, I wish I'd kissed the alien. Dude, can I tell you something? Always. There was a lot of behind-the-scenes negotiation about alien shapes. prosthetics in the right shade of blue last week. A lot of negotiation.

Tell me more. That's all that needs to be said because end result, A plus. But like, what was the, what was the potential impact of choosing the right shade of blue versus the wrong shade of blue for the alien? The colors had to work. I mean, that entire set. Just like it has to look cool? Yes.

I mean, this is, that's what's cool about these performances, is there is a ton of art in them. You can go in a way the staging is different than the Grammys, right? The point is different. These are basically live videos. That's the bar that's been set. So costume, set design, lighting, all of that is as important, if not more important than even the dancing itself, because it's got to look like the VMAs. And that's what this is. It looks like the VMAs. That's how you know you're watching this show. Yes, Sabrina was great. I'm all for alien kissing.

I just love the historical, like the nods to all the historical stuff. And it was subtle enough. She still was serving Seward through all of her performance. But for all of the- The dress in particular was just like a pull for the ages. Yeah. And for all of the stink about how can espresso not be nominated for song of the summer, MTV answered by saying, well, we had already predetermined that she was going

to win Song of the Year. So we gave Song of the Summer to somebody else. By the way, though, that's crazy to me. It doesn't matter. None of the shit matters. These awards are fucking made up. Do you want a moon man? You get a VMA for podcaster of this month. And there is a certain, I mean, there's a certain magic to that, but like I was talking to some friends a few days before the show about the, I was like, I was like, I was like, like, oh, the VMAs are next week. And they were, like, somebody Googled the nominees. And we were going through them.

And they were like, this doesn't make any sense. And I was like, I can't explain this to you. I'm just telling you that these are not serious people. But it doesn't matter. Like, it doesn't have any bearing on the Grammys. It doesn't have any bearing on anything. They're just like, they're going to have fun for like three hours. And then it's so dumb.

Nobody remembers any of it. The only thing you remember is like, how much was Taylor drinking? And that is the next topic that we're going to address on this podcast. because Taylor I Taylor loves to see a vodka cocktail

she was going at the vodka crans in the cheese box. Is the phrase you're looking for you know a vodka cocktail hates to see her coming? I already put that. Yes, it does.

And I know a vodka cocktail hates to see her coming. And I know it because she has demolished the supply of vodka cranberry at at Arrowhead Stadium.

And that was just Thursday night. Then, you know, whatever they drank on their, you know, cute little dinner dates in the city, including the pizza place where, whatever. Anyway, we don't need to go that deep into it. But, man, fans, really, like thousands of people going down to the restaurant.

Really? Okay. That's what you want to do with your Saturday night. Sunday at the U.S. Open. What is this drink? The Frozen Thing? that you just love this drink. The honey deuce. The honey deuce.

It is vodka. Yes, it is. Shambord. I don't know what that is. But then what they do is they garnish it with melon, but they do the little melon balls so that they look like tennis balls. But it's better frozen.

She gave zero fucks because she was mowing those things through straws. I mean, my girl was, how many deep do you think she was on Sunday? How many honey deuses? Be honest. I don't know. So a few years ago, after they, so when they, they didn't cancel the open, but they didn't have fans at the open during the pandemic year, I have friends who get a ticket package every year. And there was a thing where it was like, you could get your money back immediately

or you could have your, you could not get a refund, but what you'd paid would cover your next year's tickets, but because the tournament needed cash, they wanted to incentivize people to choose that option. So it was like if you did that, they gave you something like $1,000 in U.S. Open bucks. It was like a huge amount of money, but it was, you know, you can only use it on like concessions and merch and stuff. So what is that by four honey deuce? Duses? Yeah. I mean, they are like $25 a thing. But there was... What's the plural of honey deuce? Honey, I think it's honey deuce. Honey, I think it's just honey deuce.

Okay. But I will say that I have spent, I have spent an afternoon at the U.S. Open. Oh, you have had honey deuce or honey trace or even honey catoors. I have been at the U.S. open with a group of people with the knowledge that on like one of the last days with the knowledge that we had something like $600 to spend in U.S. Open bucks. And it was use it or lose it. and a lot of honey deuce was consumed. Honey dees wheat. Honey dees nuff.

Well, she had a lot of honey deuce. You get them in like souvenir cups. Yeah. And not all of these were mine. But I do think that I have a full set of like. Yeah. Well, I'd like to see a Taylor Travis Cupsnake from whatever got crushed. It seemed like Travis was.

Somehow I don't think Taylor did what I did, which is like put all the souvenir cups in her tote bag. and take them home. I bet in that little fanny pack that the bodyguards carry around that might have walked out with a couple of those glasses. But what she walked out with a lot of empty glasses

and every single honey deuce just added to more dancing to the darkness, I believe in a thing called love. She was in fine tailor form. I mean, she just gave zero F. She was happy to be there.

We just don't see her out in public like this. It was such a good time. You keep saying this. You keep saying this. And I know what you mean because obviously there was an era not too long past where that was not the case and she was much more private. At a certain point, we are going to have to adjust our expectations because for a year now, she actually has been a very public person. Yeah. Okay. You're right. I enjoy watching someone who is usually the subject of such adulation be a fan. And that's what she gives.

And it comes with all of the goofiness, all of the slight cheese, all of the Taylor. But I sort of tie it to the cute thing that she said about Travis when accepting that award last night, where she said this man, you know, makes, what do you say, happy? Everything this man touches turns to happiness and fun and magic. I mean, what a wonderful thing to say about somebody because she looks constantly now like she's happy and having fun when she's in the presence of this guy. And it's fantastic. She does seem like she's having a lot of fun.

It also, like the quote itself is very cute. The story that she was telling about after every time she said cut, on set filming the Fortnite video. Travis is just off in the corner being like, woohoo! Yeah! Go get it, babe! Yeah.

And like the snack guys and all the extras are like, what the fuck is this guy? But yeah, no, it's great. I mean, there was this interesting contrast in that U.S. Open booth between a couple that had know each other since high school and had children and been married in the Mooms

and Travis and Taylor. And I did think like, Do you think there's a moment where Brittany's like, oh, my God, these guys are so fucking annoying. Wait till they have kids and they fucking can't stay. Or is it possible that Travis Kelsey is just going to be able to continue the magic and the happy and the party and the fun? Is he just like, is that his DNA? And he will always be that guy. I think they've known Travis for a long time.

And to some extent, maybe this is new energy for Taylor, but it's not new energy for Travis. So if they're rolling their eyes, it, it, it, it may be, maybe, maybe not, but it wouldn't be the first time if. Yeah. Well, it's, it's, it's, it's good times all around. And, uh, you would think we would start to wear thin of it. Not, not, not, not get annoyed by it, but I, I do think, uh, that this week will,

will, will maybe have been the peak and that as we get back in the NFL season, it won't be quite so much of, of the gawking. but we'll see. Okay, but can I talk to you about, I have a couple other VMEs things that I want to talk about. Yes, first of all. Let's go. I just need to ask you this.

The show starts. Taylor and Post win Best Collaboration. It's the first award that's televised. She gets up. Were you expecting her to bring up 9-11? No. I wasn't either. I was like chit-chatty with my friends in my living room.

And then all of a sudden we were like, whoa, whoa, whoa, guys stop, stop, stop. Stop. She's talking about 9-11. No. Yeah, it was a little bit like, well, again, you're right. You're right.

Yes, you are right. That is more important. But, like, who, it was also like, I do think, I think this sort of funny thing happened where, like, they had to change the date of the show because of the debate. So then it's on 9-11,

and they did a really nice thing where they donated a lot to one of the organizations, and that's great. I do think that took on a weird vibe where the VMAs were like, and now our show must reflect on the tragedy of 9-11 because that is what people want from the Video Music Awards. Right.

Well, Chaparone shoots a flaming arrow into a building and sets it on fire. Right, like we just didn't. I just... What? I don't... This is not on tape. whatsoever. I have to imagine that someone asked her to do that. And she is a, like, respectful and

responsible enough person and also a meaningful enough person in the public eye that if I were the VMAs, I would definitely be like, if we want someone to do this, like, who better than Taylor Swift? That's great. I just was a little startled by it. She knew she was going to pick up 12 of these stupid trophies and she was going to be up there so much that, you know, she had to think about some things that she was going to say to spread it out through the course of the night. I mean, thank God they didn't show artists of the year because what was she going to say then? I love a honey deuce. Thank you. Like I don't, she just, it was, it was time. But it did, the whole thing, right? Like this morning when I talked to him, what were my daughters about it?

She was like, why did they do that on 9-11 in New York City? I was like, yeah, that's a fair question. Right. It's just a little bit of an... USA, baby. It was an incongruent energy. But like, frankly, that's what the VMAs give you. So it's... That's what it is. I don't have a problem with it.

I just wasn't expecting it. I mean, the only thing that could have been... And then the only other person who brings it up is Carson Daily, who's like, we'll never forget 9-11. Also, all of you in the audience, I fucked your mom. Like, what is he doing? The only thing crazier would have been closing the show. show with Dave Grohl.

Dave Grohl comes in. Good night, everybody. There goes my hero. You mentioned earlier that there was a love or something else. Triangle, not Rombus, to my knowledge, just a regular old triangle. Yeah, I love Rombus. Because we got performances from Sabrina, of course. Well, maybe the alien.

Alien might make a love Rambus. Fair enough. And then Camilla Cabo and Sean Mendes also performed. There was a little reflection. Yeah, with the Spaceman and the Alien, there was a little bit of a callback to the taste video, which she was singing during that stuff. So it was, there was.

I don't really need you to justify my love rombus claim this specifically, but thank you. All right. There's only 180 degrees in this love shape, okay? It's a triangle. Okay. Well, all three points were reflected at the show. What did you think of Camilla Cabo's performance of Godspeed within some sort of box?

The laptop smash. I will say that I like the songs that she sang. I like both of those. There have been so many artists that have caught my attention this summer that I... This is the angle of the triangle that seemed to me to be the least interesting. Okay. I don't think the performance was not interesting.

I thought it was intense and it felt authentic. I just haven't been able to get deeply into the music or the story there. I just haven't. So then let's go to Sean Mendez, who's saying a new song called Nobody Knows. He has a new album that's called Sean, which I think is really funny. Why does it have the same energy of when people give a dog, when people give their dog like a people name? Like, why is Sean Mendez calling his album, Sean,

the same as someone being like, this is my dog, Andrea? Well, come on. I mean, Harry's house isn't much better. I don't know. Somehow it's better. Anyway, it caught my attention. What was your take on it? Tell me why.

It caught my attention. First of all, like, my main take on it was just, just like this man thinks he's John Mayer? Hmm. I mean, he certainly has been shaped by John Mayer. He is a fan of John Mayer. I don't know that he thinks he's John Mayer, but he certainly has heavy mayor influences.

My other thought, and this is what I thought would be your take, potentially, was just Sean Mendez hates to wear a shirt. Sean Mendez enjoys being shirtless. It is his way of... I mean, he's seven buttons on. buttoned during the performance during the show. And then there was a teaser thing that he posted online where he's just playing the guitar standing on top of a building, not wearing a shirt.

Yeah, you should be lucky he didn't run through the crowd and try to talk to all the moms dropping their kids off at school. After you spoke on the short and sweet episode that we did about Sean Mendez running through the streets of Los Angeles shirtless, several people. have DM'd me corroborating your story. Just being like, this man is just running shirtless all the time. And I'll never forget it. So I thought his performance was fine.

I just like, I am now incapable of considering Sean Mendez in any context other than just like, as far as I know, he spends six hours a day, just semi-nude running through the streets of a like. Welcome to my existence. Welcome to my existence. I will say there didn't feel like a lot of tension or drama, even though they were all singing songs, all three of them were singing songs about the other. At least visually, I didn't sort of catch the back and forth showing the, they just didn't make as much drama

out of it as they could have. And that might have been at the request of some of the people there, but maybe also the feelings are over. A bird has flown by and they've all forgotten. Yeah, I mean, also, like, if I were Sabrina and who, like, I don't know if she did this, obviously, but like, if I were Sabrina or Sabrina's people, I would say, like, look, you want me to come do this big medley and celebrate her accomplishments. Like, we're not making it about this because this is not an equilateral love triangle in terms of the accomplishments of the summer. Like, no offense to either one of them.

Yes. Yes. We're doing a lot of geometry here today, Nora. I liked geometry. Okay. Chapel. Best new artist. Yeah.

Which is like, I don't know why. I don't know what it is about. And I guess, I guess video of the year to some degree, like, feels meaningful. But best new artist for me was the one award where I was like, okay,

this is mostly a fake show where, yes, they're going to hand out some moon people and we're all going to have a nice time. But if they fuck this up and they don't give this award to Chapel Rhone, I'm going to be pissed. We're going to write it.

Happy for everyone. Mission accomplished. I think the biggest, I mean, I thought Chapel's performance was terrific, but I really want to come back to this point because I think it's being refined and I think it's intentional. Like, I think it is very much

her intention to redefine the fan artist relationship right now. And I didn't get it until she snapped back at that photographer who was yelling at her and said, you shut the fuck up. And then in all of the other interviews that followed where they asked her about that,

She's like, I've been famous for like one month. And this is not how it's going to go. You're not going to yell at me like this. And I was a little, you know, let me just say a little wary or maybe a little bit uncomfortable with some of the original video stuff that she posted being like, you do not have a right to come up and talk. It just felt sharp. But then, you know, the Rolling Stone article that came out elaborated on how invasive

some of it has been. And I am now fully team chap. on this. Like, you can be a fan without being possessive, without being intrusive. I do think fans stopping asking for a photo, like, that's part of the gig. I get it. But there are lines and boundaries that I don't know what they are yet, but that I think chapel is going to try to help redefine here because I'm just going to say this. I think she knows she needs it for her own mental health. She needs this. She's not going to be the danger of Chapel Rhone is whether she can survive

this escape velocity she is on into orbit right now. It's not clear that she can keep all this together. This is a lot for her, even though she's been doing it, as she said, for a decade. That's some of the danger. It's some of the must-see TV of Chapel.

And my original reaction was, oh, I don't know if that's the way to handle it. I'm all in. I love that she is setting the boundaries and claiming what she's going to give what she's not. My girl bald and doubt. She tweeted.

And I think she said like totally what encapsulates this to me, which is that it seems like Chapel is entering, she's not entering the industry. She's been here for years. She's been working.

But she's entering the industry as a star, as someone who people know with a sense of self-worth that we typically only reward and venerate in women especially once they have been through years and years of shit. The pattern is you deal with the shit and you take the shit and you take it for years and years and over and over again and then come out at a certain point and say,

I'm not going to let you do this to me. And then we clap for it. And I think Chapel is just saying, I'm not doing that. I'm not going to play that game. I am just telling you immediately that I don't have to smile and act like I'm just grateful if people are really crossing lines and I respect the hell out of it. There's so much about our modern fan ecosystem, paparazzi ecosystem always

that's just like really fucking invasive and I bet there's a lot of other artists who are really grateful that she's talking about it well I mean look just look at the Taylor situation and Chapel's fan base and there is overlap but Chapples fan base would do very well to look at

the ways in which Taylor has been driven to the brink of who's afraid a little old me and you know the insane in asylum where they raise me. I think Chapel Rhone is more fragile than Taylor. And that is part of the beauty of Chapel Rhone. It is part of the danger of Chapel Rhone.

It is part of the intrigue of Chapel Rhone. But if y'all treat Chapel Rone, the way that Taylor's fan base has treated Taylor, she will crumble. She will. It is part of the uniqueness of Taylor Swift that she has been able to mentally hold up through all of the speculation and all

of the, you know, online pressure to do this and be that and all, all of the reputation era stuff. Like, she is one of one in that way. Not every artist is going to be able to do that. The fragility is part of what fuels the art. Please don't fuck this up. Because as that performance showed, she is special. She is not just your favorite drag queen's favorite artist. She is now, you know, your favorite artist's favorite artist and your favorite fan base is favorite. Like, and she is, She is the thing. Don't fuck this up. She also just, but she, I agree with you.

Clearly there's a fragility. Clearly, this has been in, in some ways, an amazing summer for her and in some ways a really hard summer. And she's been very open about that. I do think there's also a real strength, though, and just she sees things really clearly. It doesn't mean it's not immensely hard for her. But she just seems to have a clarity in understanding a lot of,

of the things that happen around her and knowing which are okay and which are not okay, that like, man, I admire the hell out of it because I just think it's so easy to tell yourself that something, oh, well, maybe they didn't mean badly or maybe, you know, part of growing up is like you have all sorts of experiences and then you sort of reflect and learn and go like, wait a second, that actually was fucked up. I got to take an advantage of, no, but yes, there is a strength in her standing up for herself now and saying no. There is a strength.

When she has something to lose. You know, I think like a lot of that growth in those realizations that wait a second, you know, someone did take advantage of me or that was fucked up. Like, that's not, that's just growing up. But it is also hard to kind of bite the hand in that way when you're still on the climb. So I just, I have so much respect for her. I think she's so fucking cool. Yeah. I do want to clarify one thing, which is that Jack Antonoff, let us know inside the time that we've been recording this podcast that he was wearing earplugs and that he uses them all the time. He's got a

million of them and that he used them to protect his ears. And his ears are very valuable. So I don't blame you, Jack, do it. I just come away from this night that I don't really think matters because it's all just fucking dumb, especially on 9-11 for fuck's sake. it's just so fucking dumb. But there is in the world that we play in from a music perspective, there was this sun in Taylor Swift that the whole event revolved around and that these sort of emerging supernova stars were all clustered around. And I do think that in the year of 2024,

which I do think is going to go down as a very meaningful and important one in pop music, that that event was a great encapsulation of where we stand right now. There were a few who were missing. Yeah, I was going to say with one exception, where the fuck was Charlie? Well, where was Diolipa? Where was Beyonce? But yeah, where the fuck was Charlie? Charlie's on tour.

Yeah, but Charlie, like, where was she? Where was Olivia Rodrigo? I don't think Olivia was as conspicuously absent as Charlie from this particular event. And that is also because Charlie was barely nominated. She was nominated for the 360 music video in art direction. And then the Von Dutch got like a visual. They should have had this serving seaworthiest video award. That would have gotten 360 for sure.

I was like, I mean, I wonder if, yeah, I guess it's probably just scheduling with the tour and everything. Yeah. And that's fine. Look, I mean, Chapel took some heat for canceling tour dates in Europe to be here. So not, you know, it's one thing to cancel a small room in Paris. It's another to cancel an arena show with Troy, with Troy in the U.S. So. Yeah. No, I'm not suggesting anything like sinister or bad.

I just, I agree with you that this event was a great reflection of what's been just like such an exciting summer and an exciting year and an exciting time in pop music. The one thing that kind of, the one sort of conspicuously absent element was like, man, wish we'd gotten a little bit of a brat summer tribute in there somewhere. but that's okay. There's going to be plenty of times for Brett. Wait, I have one more thing that I need to bring up, bring up to you. Great.

Katie had a great night, really liked her performance. Little S. Crotch would have been fine. Whatever. Yep. She won most iconic performance for her performance of Roar in 2013. And this one going up against the Brittany Madonna, Christina Kiss

that Sabrina referenced Taylor in 2009 performing in part pre-taped

in part live after the Kanye thing the M&M It's all fucking stupid okay

I'm just saying this would have lost you're right remember Katie Perry's Roar performance

at the VMAs in 2013 no no no and I remember all of those other performances that you just talked about. Yes, because they're iconic.

If you're going to give out, like, I know. They've got a scissor cam in New York City on 9-11. This is an extremely unsurious event. I take your point that I am like trying to apply a level of seriousness to something that is very unsurious. I'm just saying that if you are going to be that raisin about it, stack the deck for her. Like, make the other nominees.

some random bullshit. You can't have like the four most iconic VMA moments in history and then a random Katie Perry performance that nobody remembers.

Right. When the guy from System of a Down climbed in the sculpture, I don't know, whatever that have, yeah, something dumb nobody

really cares about. There were two, two of the entries, the Britney Madonna, Christina Kiss, and then the Eminem performance, were actively referenced

during the show. because they are pop iconography that people have internalized so they can be represented and rift on decades later. We will forget. We are going to forget as a society that Taylor Swift endorsed Kamala Harris before the election in two months. You could run back this same show next year and half the audience. I mean, let me ask you this. Did you watch the show on MTV? No.

Yes, I did. I bet 60% of the views of this thing happened at least online. Maybe it's 90%. You know what? I don't care, Nathan. We live in a society where certain things are over the line. Cisor cams and suggesting the Katie Perry's roar performance was remotely iconic relative to the other things that actually were interesting in the history of this event. back when it had a real influence on culture and was more than just a blight at the end of a

national day of morning. Katie Perry has had many iconic performances. All of the like the cotton candy, left shark, everything with the residency was really cool. The fucking roar performance from the 2013 VMAs. What are we doing here? And do you think, like, here's the other thing. Do you think, so am I supposed to think that this was a deal breaker for her to go? They're calling Katie Perry. They're like, Katie, you need a win. We're giving you the Video Vanguard Award. Isn't that awesome?

And we want you to perform. We want you to do a medley. You can fly in from the rafters. We'll give you pink's whole contraption set up. It'll be great. You want a scissor. We'll give you the Vajajai Cam. Absolutely.

Everything you want. All the male backup dancers you can come up with. Every single one of them. All yours. And Katie says, sounds pretty good, but I need a sweetener. I need an award for my performance of Roar in 2013. Or I will not come. I don't know how these things get decided.

But let's just say that if you've got a moon man in your house, I would read 3,000 words on how the 2024 MTV Video Music Award, Award Moon Person for most iconic performance came to be awarded to Katie Perry's Roar performance at the 2013 BMAs. That's all I'm saying. Perhaps we shall even end the podcast here. I think these are closing notes. What a week and there's still more to come, Nora. This has been every single album. As always, I am Nora Princeati. He is Nathan Hubbard. Thank you to the fabulous Guy I'm McMullen for producing this episode, and we will talk to you next week.