Every Single Album - Taylor Swift is TIME’s Person of the Year | Every Single Album: Taylor Swift

Episode Date: December 7, 2023

Taylor Swift was named TIME’s 2023 Person of the Year, and in conjunction with that honor gave a rare interview for the profile. Nora and Nathan talk about why she might have decided to give the interview (1:00), some of the major revelations that came from the piece (15:58), and what it means for her future music that she’s in a very happy moment in her life (48:21). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Yossi Sallick and I'm the host of Bansplain, a show where we explain cult bands and iconic artists by going deep into their histories and discographies. We're back with a brand new season at our brand new home, the Ringer podcast network, tackling a whole new batch of artists, from grunge gods to power pop pioneers to new metal legends and many, many more. Listen to new episodes every Thursday, only on Spotify. Welcome to an emergency episode of every single album. I'm Nora Hintziotti. As always, I'm, I'm I am joined by Nathan Hubbard, and we are here to discuss Taylor Swift, who is Times Person of the Year. Nathan, how excited are you? I thought it was Donald Trump for the 10th year in a row. Doesn't he have, like, pictures of himself all over Mar-a-Lago as Times Man of the Year, even though he only got it once?

Yes, well, and Taylor has technically been at least one of the people of the year twice. I do have to say I'm really amused by the tweets that are like, Taylor, I'm going to let you finish. But Jerome Powell had the softest landing of all time. Like that really, it really got a chuckle out of me. I sent that to some people and then had to explain it. And I don't know that it's landing for everyone. But I just want to say that that bit is landing for me personally. So it's just been a fun day on the internet.

And we felt like we had to react to it. there is, of course, an accompanying profile done by the writer Sam Lanski. It is a piece that I would say the word that comes to me is comprehensive. I don't know that we delved super deep on every topic, but the profile just sort of hits all the different beats that have been part of the Taylor Swift experience this year. And honestly, for several years, what did you think of the story, Nathan? I love. it, it reminded me of the piece from earlier in the fall. Who wrote the piece? For Christ, Taffy's piece. Yes. It reminded me a bit of Taffy's piece. Taffy wrote a director from New York Times magazine. Yes, except with direct quotes and direct interactions and coffee going cold. And you know what was funny is that one of the access points for the time story happened after one of the shows in Santa Clara, a.k. K. Swifty Clara. Which is where Taffi went and was writing about how she'd been told

that Taylor didn't have time to do a profile. And Sam was in the crowd. Is it real? Like, is that real? Is that a brush off? Is she mad about something I wrote in the past? Does she actually just literally not have time? And it was very funny for that to come up again. Because it turns out that she might have been two-timing with another feature writer. Yeah, I thought, look, Taffy's piece has a lot of rich context on the entirety of Taylor's life that is more summarized by Sam's piece.

He doesn't get into all of the rabbit holes around not, you know, seeing her friends at the mall when they told her that they had plans and how that, right, no one wanted to play with me when I was a little kid. He does touch on the, on the mastermind part, of course. But they're wonderful sort of cousins that tell the story along with the entire 900 hours of every single album of this woman's life and career. Well, and the thing that's sort of interesting is, like, the taffy piece, I think, ended up being probably helped by the fact that Taylor didn't participate because if Taylor participates, and it's really, really interesting to hear what she says in says to Sam,

but when Taylor says something, it becomes, you know, it's hard to not focus on that and it's a good reason. But when she's not part of it, it becomes. becomes, it opens it up more to become about the fans. And what's so interesting about this year and about sort of what the era's concept has, has led to is that the line between we, the fans, being sort of retrospective about our own lives and how our fandom has traced the contours of our lives is so blurry with Taylor's eras. And not having her speaking to it, I think actually helps you think about what it means to the fans to sort of embrace their own memories of

girlhood or growing up and sort of celebrate in that. When you do get the chance to hear directly from Taylor, it is very natural and for the better when that's the purpose of the piece that you go straight to, oh my gosh, we get to hear from the woman herself what she thinks about XYZ. And she said a lot. Yes, she did. We were going to go through like the best quotes. And at first we were going to do 20, but then I bookmarked like 45. So I have a list of like 12 and change topics that we got words from Taylor on.

So I think we should just go through them and just talk about them. I want to do that. But first I want to acknowledge that for months now, you and I have been talking about how fascinating it is that she doesn't, need an intermediary. Like, she does not need media because she is as big of a media empire and entity as exists in the world.

But she did this interview, and it wasn't just the trust issues with lots of conspicuously capitalized letters. It's not just about that, I don't think. But she did

this one because she still really cares about the awards and the recognition stuff, doesn't she? Like, she cares about the Grammys still. She cares about the first week sales. And I think she understands from a legacy perspective that even though Time Magazine has a circulation of, like, I don't know, 17 people, if you add in members of my family

who get the magazine, it's still from some sort, you know, it's that last vestige of at least something who's 30, someone who's about to be 34 years old, it still feels like it matters, doesn't it? Yeah, it's a big deal. I mean, and it is, it is a, it is a creation, right? It is a media creation. It is entangled with marketing. Of course, it's more exciting to have Taylor Swift on the cover than Jerome Powell or whoever. I don't, I don't mean to be like bringing this up again. Um, you just love that. Yes, you do. It just thought it was really funny. You exactly made me laugh. Bring it up. really made me laugh. And I've, I, I, I, I, I, I sent the joke to some people who are like,

what is this? And so I'm just really waiting for the moment when it lands with somebody. And, like, I guess I'm still searching for it. But if anybody else thought that tweet was very funny, you know where to find me. Anyway, so I think you're right. I think mostly her participation just hinges on the fact that being Times person in the year, it's a big deal to her. And it's something that has a lot of reach. And it's something that's sort of recorded for posterity. and feels like a nice way to honor where she is right now. The other thing is that while I don't think that she needs traditional media really at all, I do think that every once in a while she has this impulse to kind of emerge and say,

okay, I've been not really speaking on any of these topics for a long time. And I'm just going to go one by one and tell you how I feel, where my head is, where it was, where it is now. And in that way, the profile kind of reminded me of Miss Americana, where it's not about one thing. It's sort of like you're going through all of these. There is an arc and a narrative, but you're kind of going through the list of topics that if you follow Taylor Swift, over the course of years, you've been kind of interested to hear her speak on. And she's like, okay, I will weave together in kind of narrative form that I'm going to share with a reporter. My thoughts on three recordings as of now. I'll revisit Kim and Kanye.

I will talk about Travis. I will talk about the sort of inter-reputation period. I will talk about all these different things. I will not talk about Loverfest. Well, please, some journalist, somewhere. somehow sometime. Ask her what was planned for Loverfest? Wow. That's a great question. I didn't even think of that.

But I didn't realize that was on your mind. That's a really interesting idea. Someone should go do that. Unfortunately, we're probably going to have to wait like five or six years until she participates in another big journalistic profile again. Nora, what did she tell us from this thing? You can shoot your shot into the ether and it might get you Taylor Swift. So on behalf, of both of us. On a podcast, you can do that. I just want to say, on behalf of both of us, Taylor, we are here, we are ready, ask

Nile, we're very safe, we're ready. Come on every single album. Yeah, Nathan's apparently just going to ask you about Loverfest. Okay, let's just, I want to say one thing before we dive in, but I really want to dive in, so I'll just say it now. Sam Lansky felt like an intentional choice in that he was the, ghostwriter for Britney Spears is The Woman and Me, which I just thought was interesting.

I thought that was an interesting way to, he's also written a bunch for time in the past. She's proud of this one. It's pinned now. Yeah. These are words that they certainly didn't have purview over, but that they were very happy to see. I just thought that was an interesting,

sort of subtle positioning of herself in the legacy of female pop star. is this moment, the idea of being able to sort of like last through the chaos of stardom, especially when you're young and who's sort of been sacrificed to that chaos and her pride at feeling like she's made it through, but also understanding of just how difficult that is and how many forces are sort of working against you. So anyway, we're going to talk about all that. But the first thing that I want to talk about is,

maybe not everybody's headline from this piece. But it is something that I really, really, really wanted to know about, and she finally let us in, which is that we finally got a window into the workout routine for the Ares store. Oh, I'm so glad we're going here. Yes. Is there any way? First of all, how long is the set?

You saw the show twice. How long is the set? It's three and a half hours. Right. It's like three hours and 20 minutes. You'd think she was on a treadmill for three? Three and a half hours a day? Okay.

Quite possibly. Oh, my God. So I don't, like, she's, the thing that's really funny about, so she says that six months ahead of the show, the first show, she started training. And she would run on the treadmill and sing the set list while she did. But she would be running fast for fast songs, a jogger walk for, a jogger a walk for slow songs, which is, there was like a TikTok. trend of doing a workout to, there were like different playlists and you would get on a treadmill

and listen to a certain playlist and just increase the speed in accordance to what song you were listening to. So I wonder if she was inspired by that. How many times do you think she fell on the treadmill like she does in the Apple commercial? In the Apple commercial. Face planning. But like that's a lot of time on the treadmill. I mean, first of all, once again, it all comes back to JJ Watt, who who stood up and was like, let me tell you something. This tour is a physical feat. I cannot even believe that she's up there. I didn't need JJ Watt to tell me that,

but it is a physical feet. This tour is a massive physical feet. Speaking of feet, her talking about her feet going crunch, crunch, crunch, and her rest part we can come back to as she takes the day off and gets crumbs in her bed. I love that so much. But the routine of getting ready for this thing,

it is fascinating. I mean, I love the, sort of self-deprecation around her dancing. She's aware. She's not like Duelipa, blissfully unaware, which is cute. It's that she is aware that she needs a little bit more work to get it into her bones. I mean, this is massive training that clearly paid off because part of, part of just the fascination of watching this show multiple times is you could see there were

nights where she was able to dig down and go for the high notes. there were nights where she was too tired to do it sometimes and she wouldn't do the full run, which is just a reminder of just night and night out what she actually had to do to physically produce this thing. Well, this isn't about the workout stuff, but she put that in the context of knowing people put a crap ton of effort

into being at the show, getting tickets, and she really wanted to deliver on that, which I think she, I think a three and a half hour show was her way of doing that. It was a pretty good one. What did she say she doesn't want to tour? she previously had toured like a frat guy? Yeah, so I wanted to talk about this. What do you think that means?

The text of the piece is in the past Swift jokes, she toured, quote, like a frat guy. Like she's like found in Coors Light and her tour of us? I think overlay that with, if we graph all of her lyrical references to partying and getting high, the thing is they really start mostly on reputation right? And then they go, so it must have been coming out of the reputation tour and probably

some of her like coping that we'll talk about that she spoke to in great detail, locking herself in a rental house in London for a year and not leaving. So maybe she picked up. London, the city that shall not be named. Yeah. Well, she said she she said that she stopped drinking. I would like to take issue with that part of it. And I think it's probably been misunderstood. But I just scoured the internet for, I mean, I'm thinking about her walking off stage in Los Angeles with a glass of wine on the last night. I'm thinking about her at the award shows with a glass of what. I'm thinking about her in the chief's box, like, toasting with the vodka crayons. And I love it.

It's fantastic. I'm thinking about the, what was the, it wasn't a wordal party. What, what game were they playing with Questlove and Sudakis? Oh, it was like, adults only, Uno. Adult Uno. Yeah, whatever that is. but she's been ingesting things. And I say this tongue and cheek,

of course she's been clearly taking good care of herself. But it makes me feel better when I'm like, yeah, no, I'm definitely not drinking from the holidays. And then I'm like, oh, I just had a margarita on Saturday night. I guess maybe I am. That's kind of Taylor not drinking for the tour. So first of all, I think she was referring to the period of time before the show when she was really training intensely,

which actually is how, like, that's how an elite athlete trains for the Olympics or for a marathon. It is more intense in the lead-up when you're preparing your body to be able to do something like that. But then in the middle of the Olympics, you drink a bottle of Chardonnay. Get out of here. That's actually, first of all, have you ever read a story about what goes on in the Olympic Village? Like, that's completely tracks. Not in between the 200 and the 400. It's after they finish.

I'm really not so sure about that. That's when the baby making starts at the Olympics. I wouldn't be surprised if in some ways she was working her body more intensely in the run-up. Because as she said, she was doing it every day. Yeah. And I do believe that there's a way of training for this where you do that when you're not actually doing the show. And then you do the show, it was sometimes more, but let's call it three nights a weekend. And then the rest of the time you are just resting.

Yeah, 100%. I'm going to say this. More than that, though, is the other thing where I do think it's like when you say, I'm not drinking. Right. I'm not drinking at home on a weeknight. Right. When it's Tuesday.

Here's the thing that I think I feel comfortable saying in this moment, which is that when we got to Los Angeles and I saw the show in Arizona and I was running around the whole stadium sort of trying to take it in in a bunch of different places, not Arizona, Vegas. But I wasn't really watching her as much as I was like the production and the thing. In Los Angeles, I watched her. And I mean, she looked strong. Like her body is strong.

It is, it is noticeably different. I mean, she looks like an athlete, right? She is an athlete. Yeah. But like, she ran. This is what I'm saying. I really believe her that she ran on a treadmill for three and a half hours every day, I do, too.

It's like when you look at the lower body of an NFL running back, and you're like, holy, like, Sequan's quads are astounding. You've seen them, right? Like, the guys, I have indeed, yes. Yeah, like, she. New York Giants running back Sequon Barkley for the uninitiated, who Nathan is referring to. Sorry, but she, Travis Kelsey has a good, you know, tank underneath.

Taylor, like, had stability. in her lower body is what I noticed at the time. She's incredibly strong. Yeah. She's incredibly, incredibly strong. Okay, here's the part of this that just I delight in. So we need to talk about this. After she plays a run of shows, this is, I'm quoting from the piece,

Swift takes a day to rest and recover. I do not leave my bed except to get food and take it back to my bed and eat it there. She says. And then here's the best part. It's a dream scenario. Which is so funny because she's a billionaire and she could live like that. There are people with her personal wealth who do live like that. And they've got, you know, Doritos in their bed.

For her, she's like, oh, it's just a dream scenario. Like, Taylor, you could pay five people to just feed you grapes and fan you and, like, bring one cat after the other into the bed with you. It's fantastic. On the other hand, like, thank God that she is revealing this. because you and I forever have been like, the Eres Tour movie was great if you didn't go to the Ares Tour. I think it was great if you went to the Ares Tour, whatever.

But we talked about how what we really would have loved to have understood was what went into this. How did she do this? And she told us now what we thought, which is, man, this thing wipes you out, even if you've run for three hours a day on a treadmill for six months. And she literally had to lie down and recover in the same way that guess who does that every Monday morning? Travis Kelsey. Yeah. Probably a real bonding moment.

I'm sure, like, I, this was so satisfying. I want so much more. Like, I want to know what does she have the, like, infrared sauna, like, leg sleeves. Like, she must have a whole set up. Cold plunge. She might have, like, the Tom Brady method. Yeah. Recovery, cold plunge tub, everything.

I just want to know everything. But there was a mystery around this athletic feat for her. And that was the thing that I appreciated most out of this article was that insight. I do wonder if like, I wonder if it, if like, it occurred to her more to talk about this a little bit because of Travis. Just because, like, I've never heard her sort of bring this up before. And obviously the ERIS tour was a different level of physicality. But it's not as though she wasn't working really hard on previous tours, too. So it's just so fun to hear her talk about it.

I just love it. I want her to do it more. Okay. Number two. Speaking of Travis. Taylor on Travis, including the quote, this all started when Travis very adorably put me on blast on his podcast. Have I ever heard Taylor Swift say the word podcast before?

I don't know. Which I thought was metal as hell. It's metal as hell to shoot. your shot into the ether on your own podcast. So do a lepa. What's-ah? Seriously. We just need to start manifesting a little bit more here.

I mean... What's up? I have... It worked. It worked. I mean, on blast. On blast and metal are both words that I'm not sure, like, made it much past COVID, did they? as like regular vernacular?

That's pretty metal. That's pretty metal of you. It's metal as hell. Yeah, I haven't heard anyone say that in a long time. I mean, she's redefining words. I think put me on blast is still like, that's still going around. It's not even that metal to me sounds dated.

It just sounds weird. Like, what does she mean? First of all, putting someone on blast by bringing a friend, by saying she wouldn't meet me to take my friendship, bracelet with my number on it. All right, yeah. I mean, yeah, to me, the biggest thing of that part talking about Travis was she said, we were a couple. I was like, they're a couple. Like, that's her word. Not, we're together. We're dating. We're a couple. We're a couple. It's very cute.

She's just very, like, she's very clearly happy to be out and about. That is definitely one of the themes of this. She said, when you say a relationship is public, that means, means I'm going to see him do what he loves. We're showing up for each other. Other people are there and we don't care. She wants to be jewel. And I will just come back to what we talked about when Midnights came out a little over a year ago.

Bejewled was a threat. And she is now following through on it. And it's fantastic. And the relationship makes so much more sense with these little snippets of context. and I know we're going to talk about the absolute bodybagging of Joe Alwyn that came out of this very subtly. I mean, the number six now means the six years that she dated Joe and was locked in the house

at this point, I think. But it sure is starting to sound like a low-grade prison internment more so than a relationship. And the thing that just now sinks for me in my mind is the fishbowl comments from before that she needs somebody who can be in the fishbowl. like Travis Kelsey is super comfortable being out, being around a woman who is more wealthy and popular and powerful than he is. He can celebrate that and still have his own career and have it not affect his masculinity. It all makes sense.

She just needed a boy who wasn't so deep in his damn feelings. Yeah. What was the, me locking myself away in a house for a lot of years. I'll never get that time back. No, you won't. That was a toughie. I don't know that we're getting London boy as a surprise song anytime soon. I'm not sure.

Not sure that's going to make the set list. Okay. On the Travis subject, feel like I have to shout out Madison and McCall. Just like absolute icons refusing to take the bait. Probably with tree pain, like standing in the corner, holding up pictures with their families and like pointing menacingly at them. but I absolutely loved it and loved that Taylor shouted them out

on her social posts. Just well done. Well done, team. Yeah, they did great. Speaking of Tree Pain, is it interesting to you that we actually heard from Tree Pain only a week ago?

Enough is enough. I mean, see it Tree Pain pop in my Twitter feed, I was like, did somebody steal her phone? We've already, I think, extensively documented that Dumois means dumbass in French and that there was a whole lot of bullshit

coming from that account. But it was striking to me to see her feel like in this moment I need to step forward and shut it down. There was this simmering, boiling stuff as she released,

you're losing me to streaming that, you know, and got the sort of artist of the year a word from Apple and so on and so forth. There was a lot of simmering Joe stuff that was starting to boil over in the fan base that it seemed maybe triggered this

and that this particular poster was just sort of trying to throw red meat and stir shit up. But I don't know. You tell me. I really can't. What I know is that I am a fan of Tree Pain. I like when Tree Pain is in the mix. I just like I love seeing her kick in butt and taking no prisoners and doing her tree pain thing. I love it. That's delightful to me.

Yeah. I had a little, like, if I had to, if you told me that that happened and hadn't told me what it was that she was contradicting, I definitely wouldn't have listed Des Mois being really weird about the idea that Taylor and Joe were secretly married, which, like, has always seemed ridiculous on my top 20 list of things that could have made that happen. I guess maybe that means that that's a, that's a real pain point. But I really, I don't know. What I know is that I just, I love when trees in the mix. I do too, but I also wonder, there are some far corners of the fan base that, as we know, go too far. And they get too protective and they clown in the extreme, although I don't even think it's fair to call that clowning. but starting to write some personal narratives around what might have happened in that relationship.

And it went beyond there was a secret marriage service. And so I think part of tree stepping in was maybe to just shut all of that speculation down. And the good news about those far corners of the fan base is they sometimes take the message pretty clearly. Yeah, I also wonder if, like, Des Mois is sort of like the core example. of the dynamics of today's tabloid culture. Like when Taylor goes out to dinner and she's hanging out and everything is a bit of a scene and there are a lot of photos. Yes, if you're a tree and your job is to manage some of that, you're thinking about page six, you're thinking about the Daily Mail, whatever.

But like, you're really thinking about Des Moire and you're thinking about the fact that every single person in that restaurant who has a phone, if they get a pick, then they be. become the paparazzi. And that's just the state of celebrity coverage when everyone has a smartphone. So I wonder if that outlet's not the right word, but like that account. And how fast and loose they can play it because there's just there are no guardrails and there's no fact checking. There's no verification process. I wonder if like that's just been an absolute pain. and the most over-the-line thing is the way that that that account talks about an alleged secret marriage ceremony. It's just the most out there.

It's the weirdest. It's like the easiest to contradict. And so the moment came up and she took it. I don't know. It's a weird thing to like punch back at. It was the self-assuredness. and I will die on the hill. And yeah, anyway, I was happy to see her come out.

Yeah, that has always seemed so fucking bizarre. But like, I also think in a weird way, Nora, when you're losing me, there was a real, let's beat the shit out of Joe thing that was building. And that post started to accelerate that.

And that in a weird way, maybe shooting that down, tamped down some of that buzz in advance, week later of a little bit of bus driving over the corpse of Joe Alwin in this in this interview. I mean, she knows what she's doing. And I don't think it's intended to be malicious at all. There is at least plausible deniability that, like, it was a rough time.

And that six-year period coincided with... her coping with all of the post-2016 drama and how much pain and loss she felt from that. And then also like the pandemic, which was just a weird time for everybody. Back to back things now. We know she was hiding out from the world for a few years. And then she started hiding out from a virus. And it really wasn't until the world opened up. I guess when she, there's this reckoning that appears to have happened over the course of the last, let's call it at most four months, where in spending time with this guy who is so overtly outside and out and about and comfortable in public, and as she says, supporting each other and proud of each other and happy for the world to know that, it seems to have one-80ed her perspective on the last six years. years and she's she sounds a little bit angry about it. I'll never get that time back. I mean, that's a, that's a voice of regret. Not that it's sticking with her now because what she's really

doing is looking forward in living her best life now. And she's as happy and proud as she's ever been of her art. Great. That's where we want you. Even though as we'll talk about in a moment, we should talk about that quote because that scares the crap out of me for the future of her art. Well, okay, so I'll say one thing to wrap that up, which is it is a statement of regret. It's a little bit interesting because we've also heard about her talking about, heard her talk about how stepping out of the public eye was deeply necessary and therapeutic and positive. And look, sometimes things can be both, right? And you come out of a tough period and the things you had to do to get yourself out of it

are forever entangled with why you had to do it in the first place. So even something that was, that represented growth and healing and whatever is still wrapped up in something painful. I don't know. Yeah, but some of this is like Plato's allegory of the cave. Like she's been looking at shadows

staring at the wall of a cave thinking that was real life in these relationships and there's a whole sunshine behind her and it just feels like her eyes have been opened and she's reconciling that. Now she's in the honeymoon phase. We all know that.

But I do think this is a different kind of relationship that it feels to me like more than fun and that's one of the things when it first started happening. I think you and I both thought, okay, Travis Kelsey's a little corny. He's a little bit of an athlete meathead. Vocabulary, not his thing,

spelling not his thing. hey, she's just having fun. She's never had this kind of, you know, this kind of guy in her life. And so maybe it's just a phase. But the more that they get into it, the more it feels like, hey, the cornyness is actually a match. And the celebration of who she is is something that she's never actually had. I mean, Maddie Healy was at those Nashville shows with his back to the stage. And that must have been painfully familiar, even put aside all the drama on Maddie.

I get it. But, like, it's a very different thing. And it just makes a lot of sense. And it also, you know, he's also taken the coaching, right? The way that he's talking about her publicly or now not talking about her publicly. Like, he's a very good Labrador, isn't he? Okay. Here's a quote that I think relates to some of that, which is Taylor on football.

And on her being shown at football games, She says, I'm just there to support Travis. I have no awareness of if I'm being shown too much and pissing off a few dads, brads, and chads. Tough day for brads and chads. You think Bradley Cooper's like- I love what she said that. That is the corny.

Like, talk about corny. Why are you busting me open? Dads, brads and chads. I cannot imagine a person saying that in real life, but I absolutely believe that she says that. There is a fan account that just had said something to the extent of dads, and chads are getting mad about Taylor being at football games, who just retweeted their own thing and was like, I'm sorry, what? And so I think she probably saw that tweet. Mastermind. She's a mastermind.

100%. She just adopted the language and here we are. Okay. But I mean, Bradley Cooper's got to be sitting there like, I gave you my house. Like, my apartment, we're house trades. We're house trading and you're killing brads? I get chads. Well, Braddon Cooper, I think, is like making cheese steaks in Nolita or something I saw on Instagram

this afternoon. I'm sure he's fine. I just, dad's brads and chads. Dad's brads and chads. Dad's brads and chads. I think I'm going to start saying it. Okay. Benjamin Button was on the cover of Time magazine.

I feel that we must address this. Let's do it. Benjamin Button was on the cover of Time Magazine. Benjamin Button, the cat was on the cover of Time magazine. That's the only cat that knows how to act. That's the only cat that knows how to sit still. Right.

The other two are completely monotage. In the promo, the 1989 promo. Like, useless. They might as well be toddlers. They're independent. They're independent women. No. Benjamin Button, Benjamin Button is the Travis Kelsey of cats.

That's correct. That's correct. It's just like, yo, Taylor. I'm happy to be here. sit around your neck and I'm going to pose for the camera. You want blue steel? I'll give you blue steel. That's exactly what's going on. Is Benjamin Button is just the only one who knows how to sit still?

Do you think the back of her neck was completely scratched because she tried with Meredith and or Olivia and they just fucking destroyed her? She was like, I'm trying to do this like message of female empowerment. I'll have one of the girl cats. And then she's just got like blood gushing down her back. And they're like, fuck it. Get the floppy one. Get the floppy one.

Oh, he's so cute. But I think... He really was giving blue steel. The backstory that I read was there's a book from the 70s called Cat People that was like... Yeah, where there were photographs of people. And it was sort of intended to show the humanity but also the power. And like she's carrying the weight of the world, but doing it with strength. And that photo nails it pretty well.

I just love seeing Benji. He's so cute. Okay. Moving on. From cats to revenge. I've also learned there's no point in actively trying to, quote, unquote, defeat your enemies. Trash takes itself out every single time. Best quote of the whole piece.

Best quote. Could have been the whole thing. Can we please get a song called Trash? Karma is a cat and Trash is an illegally recorded phone call, perhaps? What a wonder. And what I forgot is that not only was this like the biggest year by far, right? We knew she was a big star, but this is since a year ago when the last time we really heard from her doing the interviews and the traditional press around midnight. Like she just has taken a completely different leap.

But I forgot, I didn't really put together that all of her enemies sort of fell apart this year too, right? The scooter. Oh, I did not forget that. undoing the Kanye stuff. I just, all of the positive noise, I just sort of forgot that 2023 was also the year when all that happened

when all the trash took itself out. I would be very nervous if I was Kim Kardashian with three weeks left in 2023 right now. Well, I mean, look, Kim seems like she has been trying to get, I don't know if it's fully in the good graces or just let bygones be bygones or whatever,

but she's, you know, she's post. stuff on Instagram where she's using Taylor Swift songs in the background and she's talked about the phone call as something that she, I'm paraphrasing, but she's framed it as something that she had to do for Kanye and sort of tried to distance herself from that. No, let me ask you. How's that working out for her? Yeah, pretty badly.

So Taylor says, you have a fully manufactured frame job in an illegally recorded phone call, which Kim Kardashian, full name, full name, Time Magazine person of the year article, full name, edited and then put out to say to everyone that I was a liar. There's only one way that could have been more of a bodybagging, and it would be if she didn't use the full name

and just said, Miss Kardashian. Like she was a defendant in a lawsuit. I mean, but that's what this is like, it is so... That is precise language. Precise. And there is, And everything in that sentence is stone cold true.

Straight up. And she's just not beating around the bush. She just says exactly what happened. And it's a little spicy, but it's powerful. And I don't know that we're going to be seeing similar, any similar Instagram stories popping up. I mean, look. Some deep cuts from folklore or whatever it was.

I want to come back to the Tom Brady thing that I know you're going to throw out the window, but no one carries a grudge like this woman. No one uses the narrative of her life and shapes it in a way to fuel her energy. Not that she lives on anger, but Brady tells those stories about how he would invent something

or he'd read a quote and he'd use that to go out and be at his best. And the thing that I admire most about this woman, you remember when she was turning 30, how she talked about, I have to take advantage of this while I can. And she even speaks in this story to how she felt like record labels

were constantly trying to replace her. And that's why she kept having to evolve because it's hard to hit a moving target. And so I think she does, it is a fascinating insight into her psyche, into how she still holds onto these things, that in one way or another, fuel either the energy and the ambition

and the drive and will to go get on the treadmill for three hours, or to keep making music however many albums in, depending on whether you count the originals or the re-records as the entirety of her catalog. And I think you have to count the re-records. But there just are not that many artists who historically make meaningful world-changing art at this age.

They're usually in their 20s. They're usually in their teens. And I think she makes a really good point about how some of that, I mean, there is something sort of, it's unfortunate. It's an unfortunate byproduct of our cultural obsession with youth is that the people that we put on these pedestals are just not emotionally or psychologically mature enough to handle it. But it also speaks, I think, to something that's really true about her. Actually, I think the Brady comp is really is a good one.

I think about him with her. I also think about LeBron a lot, I think can be a very good, is like an interesting. parallel just as these cultural figures who have been dominant for so long and sometimes seem to rub certain people the wrong way. But then at a certain point you look back and go like, okay, what is the, like this person has worked incredibly hard for years and years and years, accomplished things that no one has done before. And the worst that you can say about this person is like they're kind of corny and it bugs you sometimes. Right.

So there are these, these, sometimes I do think that those examples of like really special athletes are actually very good comparisons because there is, you kind of have to be the type of person who doesn't let go of those things. Yeah. Because if you're not, then why don't you want to just be, why don't you want to just be like a billionaire getting fed Dorito? crumbs in your bed all the time. Like, there has to be something that makes you when there's nothing, like, in some ways,

she has nothing, she doesn't need anything that she doesn't already have. No. But something has to drive her to get up and do this all over again. And to stay out on tour for two years. Like, she doesn't have to do that. And a lot of people would not want to do it. Yes, most people don't. And so that's the interesting part about the narrative, because this quote to me,

there's two ways to go with it. She said, it's not lost on me that the two great catalysts for this happening were two horrendous things that happened to me. The first was getting canceled within an inch of my life and sanity. The second was having my life's work taken away from me by someone who hates me. Those are intensely passionate, big words. And on the one hand, you can say, well, she's just being dramatic. But no one knows what it must have felt like to be in that moment as one of the most famous people on the planet being attacked by two of the other most famous people on the planet with one of the biggest pieces of mis-s slash disinformation of the 2010s. Like it was a massive emotional burden and I don't think you can roll your eyes and go,

oh, she's famous and she's rich, but you just don't know what it feels like to have the whole world online and off coming at you. And then secondarily, you do not know what it means. to be an artist to create something that feels like it is one of your children. That's how passionately many artists feel about the art. So I think this is not over dramatization, but I also think she still taps into these reserves to fuel her. And I think like football coaches or personnel people talk about this a lot with athletes is like, and this is not a, it's not a knock on people who fall into different categories.

here because it's really, really natural. But it is often, you know, a thing that coaches often try to suss out in prospects is if they love the success of being a great athlete, which can be lucrative, it can be high profile, it can be a fun thing to, you know, you go back to your hometown and you're playing in the NFL and it feels really good to tell people that. and then there are players who are actively and actually obsessed with the game and with playing it and who kind of can't live without it. Yeah.

And I think she's one of those. She loves the players, but you love the game. I think when she describes that moment, as what she felt like was a, quote, career death is the most revealing of what these stakes were. Yeah. And she felt like, yes, I mean, even if, even if she'd been right and even if Taylor Swift had never been seen or heard from again, she would be comfortable and taken care of for the rest of her life. And if she had kids, they probably would be too. and that's all fine, and she's very lucky that that's true.

And she is insulated from a lot of consequences that exist in the real world. That said, that is a death to her. And I really, really believe she feels that way. If she had never been able to produce and work and write and process her own life like that, I really do believe that, like, she just couldn't, she couldn't do it. And so it makes sense that it was such a big deal.

I agree. And the happy and proudest I've ever been, quote, scares the shit out of me. Because particularly now with her reflection

and the way she's framing the last six years, she was artistically tortured through that period as well. We were all telling ourselves, oh, lover and Joe, and she's happy, and that's why she's producing.

all of this content in such frequency. But the end of you're losing me, like, I wouldn't marry me either. There is this ongoing, nagging thing that has been driving her art. Complacency and happiness and satisfaction in many, many cases in the music industry, is the enemy of great art. Most of those artists who start out huge, who get fat and happy and wealthy, do not end up making their best albums. in their 40s. Now, this is a different kind of artist who, again, uses this fuel in the same way

that Tom Brady did well into his 40s to be great until his body gave out. She has a body that she has to look after for her live performance. She also has sort of like a soul that she has to nurture to produce this writing and content. But if she is in fact in a place that is different emotionally than where she's ever been in her life, it's going to be interesting to see the impact it has on her content. It just, and the art that she creates. I'm fascinated to see it. Maybe because of who she is, she is always going to create again and again and again and just tap into these life experiences. But it does again feel like she's in a completely new space in her life ever. And I don't know what it means for her art. I mean, look, I hope she is very, very happy. Just not too happy? I would say,

I would say that I would say that life has a way of you know, even if you're in a great relationship, even if she's super happy. Like there always tends to be some shit around the corner that you got to deal with eventually. I think the two,

it's interesting that the two events that she describes, they're not relationship events. They're not about guys. They're really about her business. And, So I just, I don't know. I really, I have a hard time worrying about her finding interesting personal experiences and feelings to sort of mine for work. I suppose what could happen is if she, you know, wants to have a family and settle down.

There just might not be a lot of time. But, well, she deserves to live the life she wants and we can cross that bridge when we come to it. But I hear you. we're going to find out. It's a very, I'm thrilled for her, but she has convinced me that she's in a very new place mentally, emotionally, psychologically than she's been in other points in her life and that she's thrilled to be there. How does it affect her art? Yeah. I suppose to your point, although what I was going to say is like, look, Taylor Swift is one of the great synthesizers of feeling of all time. We are not always the best assessors of our sense. We are not always the best assessors of our And there are some things she says that I found interesting just from that that context. In particular, that she, when she was talking about kind of the end of her relationship with Big Machine and leading into the re-recordings drama, she made it seem like she was already,

she was sort of broadly unhappy there for a number of reasons. And then the re-recordings, or not the re-recordings, but the sale of the masters really kind of exploded it. but she said that the molecular chemistry of that old label is that every creative choice I wanted to make was second guest. I was really overthinking these albums. And so I read that and I thought, really overthinking these albums. Okay, what albums? The last two albums she made there were 1989 and reputation.

That's what happens when Taylor Swift is overthinking. I mean, I don't want her to feel like that, but it's not as though the results are bad. No. They're not. I just wonder if that, to me, felt more like the feedback that she was getting from her label than it driveling all the way through into the creative process. But again, I think she has constantly been seeking to be in a place where she is free to do whatever she wants with her art. And Universal had the cash and the market share goals to be able to just say, just come do it here. I'm not sure any other record label would have done anything different.

It's just that Universal was the biggest, and they could activate her around the world, and they probably could give her the best possible deal because they had such a track record of being able to give artists that freedom. They also had Lucian Grange, who said this. She could serve two terms as president of the United States and then go to Las Vegas. Who else can do that? What? Well, there's so, like, this is neither here nor there. I just, I think we need to.

Honestly, the answer is Trump. If we're not careful, the answer is Trump. Don't, as we've learned the consequences of podcast manifesting, don't speak that into existence. I just, I really love an executive saying something completely unhinded. to a reporter and just like rolling through with it. It's no notes.

It's fine. Okay, Taylor on the United Kingdom, we talked about this. I moved to a foreign country and lived in a rental house for a year. But there is like a what was I doing part of that commentary, isn't there? I suppose.

I mean... She's not calling herself whatever it is, psychotic like she did suggesting that they hard long. launched at the first game. But she's indicating that with some reflection that that

in hindsight feels like a crazy thing to have done, which to the rest of us we were like, well, she just loves this guy who's British. Yeah. Well, and I mean, it's not as though that was like, it wasn't totally out of left field. I believe she thought, didn't she think about moving to London before she moved to New York for 1989? And then,

you know, Joe was not the first Brit. Yeah, she didn't move to the Democratic Republic of the Congo. There is the, there's the Union Jack outfit a la Jerry Hallow. Like, I think maybe this is like a little bit,

this is maybe an artifact of the moment. And someday Taylor will come to terms with the fact that like in some ways, she's maybe a bit of an anglophile, but is reexamining some of that, perhaps. I don't know. She had Idris Elba, like, talking about a scooter.

We can't completely paper over this chapter. We've talked a lot about Joe on here. You and I laughed about our running bit was he's an actor that was just in reference to it felt like maybe he didn't have as much going on as she had a lot going on at the moment. But I think what I want to understand from you

is when you look at the data points from the last few weeks, the fan base sort of chomping at the bit fairly unfairly to sort of gnash their teeth at anybody who they perceived to be the bad guy. But all that aside, the re-release of you're losing me and the Dumois thing and some of the language from this interview, does it feel to you like something was going on behind the scenes

or that there was some residual emotion Did something happen with Joe? What do you? I don't know you mean by that. Recently. There's been a lot of Joe stuff of late. I sort of would have expected there to be no Joe stuff because she's deep into this new relationship.

She seems happy. They were together for six years. Yeah. But is it, I, and now I may be just tin hat conspiracy theorying. I just feel like there's a lot of Joe smoke out there over the last four weeks. So you think that, like, he, like, Was he behind the scenes maybe dropping some stories

or trying to sort of repair public image and that that's why there's been some of this over-the-top stuff? Do you think? I remember reading some of that. Yeah, we're speculating. I have no idea. Like, right when they broke up.

I just think that they dated for six years. And they haven't been broken up for that long in the grand scheme of things. And if she were not still feeling some of the stings, of that, she would probably be the first person in history. Fair enough. And that's my read on it, is that, again, there's some allegory of the cave stuff where she's like, whoa, this is what Sunshine actually looks and feels like. And there's some feelings that stuff that come up for that. Yeah. I mean, again, she has a lot of feelings. She's very good at processing them. It does seem like

there's a lot of ability to sort of conflate. I'm not saying she's doing this, but it's sometimes hard to know when she's talking about that relationship, when she's talking about the pandemic and just being cooped up because of that, when she's talking about being cooped up because of everything post-2016. And so I want to be careful that, like, I think it's easy to think that she's saying he wouldn't let me bejeweled. Right. He kept me in a cage.

But that's where the fan base is right now. Yeah, everyone's got to calm down a little bit, but like, what else? Okay, so that's an important message is calm down a little bit. She'll tell us what she's telling us. I do think in this article, when she uses the six years, which is the same amount of time that she is talking about, we know what the six means. That feels like code. Yeah, no. I mean, it's impossible to miss that.

Yeah. And the hard work that you and I have to do on this, hard work. the work that you and I have to do on this pod always is to parse the difference between like going deep on the speculative sort of dumois bullshit about her personal relationship, letting her have her space. Because again, there are parts of the fan base that just run and frolic too wild in that and actually feel ownership of it,

which is a weird, like, bad part of Stan culture. But where it actually impacts her art and her narrative in the full story, like it's important to talk about, right? and so much of her music, it is not a coincidence that you're losing me came out. Like there is a whole lot to that story and Jack Antonoff talking about the timeline around it and suggesting that it was written at the end of December 5th, 2021,

which adds whole new heat and fire. After Taylor eight raisins. 50 raisins and drank sparkling water and got like a mean old case of the farts and just got grumpy and wrote this song. It just, I, there's a lot to it where we want to try to stay away from the, you know, speculative relational stuff, which is hard to do. But it is important as it relates to her art because those two things are so deeply entangled.

Well, and that's, I mean, that's what, that's what a lot of this piece is about, right? Is like the, the work that she's done and centered through eras being this phenomenon that kind of, celebrates and acknowledges and acknowledges as valid all of the feelings of growing up and of, maybe of being a woman, but I think just being a person and of going through life and love and loss and all of those, all of those sort of deeply felt moments that young people, young women are often told don't matter and shouldn't make them feel the way they do. Taylor Swift's superpower is that she's told an entire generation

that those things do matter. And to some degree, like, she's just, she's, she's living that in this profile. She's, when Kim Kardashian comes up, it would be very rational in some ways, and it would be very unsurprising and probably something that certain elements of media and culture would praise her for if she, quote unquote, took the high road and said, oh, well, you know, it's in the past and I'm moving on. I'm sure she would get a lot of flowers for that. And there's something kind of messed up about that because what?

They lied about her. And it came with real consequences from her. She's not supposed to be hurt by it. And the fact that she just says what happened is, I think, related to the thing that has made this tour and the kind of reflection on youth and growth that she's worked into the tour and into the re-recording project that's been so powerful. So centering the scars and being very forthright about the things that sting and hurt and that she's maybe still a little pet. about and where it's still something that drives her. Like, it just makes a lot of sense to me. And I think it's, I think it's honest, even if, like, Taylor Swift will never do another

interview in her life that is not managed and sort of curated in certain ways. And I'm sure they were very careful with the selection and what access was given and what wasn't and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. but I think, like, there's a truth to just saying the things that still hurt. And I think it comes through. And that's why this interview really in hindsight is so important. Our mutual boss, Bill Simmons, edited a piece that I wrote in 2015, where I said, Taylor's 2015, was on par with the Beatles in 1964,

for Elvis Presley in 1956 and Michael Jackson in 1983. And like, we went through and laid out the case for each of those four years. This year is so much bigger than all four of those years that that's the perspective. Just like, I don't know that anyone has been at this level of stardom. And I don't mean hyperbole. Just on the music side of things, I'm not sure there's been as impactful. a year in music, especially in a moment of division and cultural stuff all over the world. It's just a fascinating moment in time to hear directly from the source where she is.

Was there anything about this interview that disappointed you? Well, yes. What the fuck is in the hole in the stage? I mean, come on. She's guarding that secret. Like Fort Knox. I mean, I just, just tell us, maybe we have to wait until the tour is over. Like, is it a ball pit?

I just want to know. That's all I want to know. Gymnastics foam. Fine. I don't know. Tell me what it is. No, I, look, I don't know. There is.

Did it feel too curated and like, like, controlled or managed? I just don't know that there's, like, I don't think that the, that the alternative exists. No, that's the point. So at the end of the piece, when Sam is writing and Sam is sort of like, I had this, I wondered if I should ask, if I should bring up the fact that like in these moments that she's described, describing as feeling so low, it didn't always look like it. She had number one hits. She had all this success. And then I didn't ask it. That's, I, when I read that for the first time, I was kind of like, oh, that is an interesting thing to admit as an journalist. That's an interesting confession, isn't it? Because we've all, like,

You know, I've interviewed people for profiles before, and there's always a balancing act of like, sometimes it does feel in your best interest to not ask certain things. You don't want to, you don't want to blow up an interview. You don't want to completely lose the trust of a person. But, you know, you want to get as much raw truth out of someone, and sometimes that's uncomfortable. And it's usually not a point of pride to say, I had this idea that maybe I should ask about this, but it might have been a little controversial and then I didn't. And so I was a little torn on if I bought his explanation.

Because I do think that there is something, because when, because the piece goes on to say, the point is that her feelings are valid. The point is that when she felt that way and that that's truth. Yep. And that questioning that. Yeah. is participatory in the same structures that made her feel that way. Yes.

And as we spoke about before, we don't actually know what it feels like to have the whole world with a sword pointed at you. Right. We don't know. It's not the same. I, you'll have to come back to me in like a month or something because I still feel a little unsure of where I actually come down. on that point because I think the point is valid. And I don't know that that exactly is the question that I feel like needed to be asked or something like that. Because I actually feel like I have a pretty clear picture of like, yes, Taylor Swift can be having number one hits and all of that and still feeling really shitty about what's what's happening to her in public.

And that makes a lot of sense to me. That feels like pretty settled business. But it just, it did strike me as as kind of a window into what profile writing is like now. But in general, I was, I enjoyed reading it. I thought it was well done. It just had a lot of her, which I think was the right way to do it. Again, it covered a lot of territory. So I don't know that there was a ton of like a ton of depth.

you don't get a lot of anecdotes. Yeah. There's a lot of just like... The Kenny Chesney story is pretty cool. The Kenny Chesney story is really, really good. But I don't think that it's a mis... He jumped right on that shit on social. Yeah.

Glad everybody else sees what I saw. But that story was really old. Yeah. So we didn't... There was not a lot of... There was a lot of... Here's the context around where her career was in a certain moment and what happened broadly.

Here's Taylor Swift addressing it and saying what she thinks about it. There's not a ton of, here's an example of something that happened that shows but doesn't tell. I just don't know that that's super possible with her. So I don't want to, I don't want to, like normally that is something that you would want

out of a celebrity profile, but I just don't know that it's really within the realm of possibility with someone on her scale. I'm just not sure there is anyone on her scale at this point. And that's what's fascinating about the way that this interview was conducted. the info she did give and the info she left out. I have to just ask you this question, and I am not trying to be cute

because I understand the sensitivity around Ronan, the song. But Ronan is a song that we never would expect to hear live. Do you think London Boy is up there now? Is there anything else in her catalog that is off limits? I mean, look, everybody felt like we weren't going to get Cornelia Street until we did. Yeah.

I don't. I think she can... I have a feeling we'll hear it at some point. It's kind of a hard song to sing acoustic, just to be clear. Yeah, it's also... But at the same time, I don't know. I mean, the Cornelia Street conversation was in some ways made more sense, right? Like, it's more emotional.

London Boy is... Although maybe it works the opposite way. Maybe it's like, it's so silly that if you can't sell the jokes of it... it just doesn't work. I bet, well, it's a long tour. She's got a lot of surprise song sets. So I guess I would say that at some point we will hear it. She does, of course, have some performances in London.

So she can't swear off the city entirely. And maybe that means she won't swear off the song entirely. I mean, like, Delicate. There's lots of songs that are like him-oriented. And I just was wondering if you thought that it had become the third rail. William Bowery is credited in the Aeros Tour movie. Like, it's not, you know, we have, not there's not full erasure.

It's not possible and it doesn't seem like, to me at least, that that's what she's going for. May I, just so that we do not miss it, since we are addressing Joe, who I'm told as an actor, and actors are sometimes in movies, I just would be

remiss if we did not cover what I'm going to call Taylor on the movies. Oh boy. You're going to talk about Gandalf. Well, okay. Let's do that first. Here's the quote. The re-recording's project

feels like a mythical quest to her. I'm collecting horroxes, she says. I'm collecting infinity stones. Gandalf's voice is in my head every time I put out a new one. For me, it is a movie now. I don't know what that means. I don't know what it means.

What is Gandalf saying, Taylor? I just, what is he saying to you? You shall not pass, right? I mean, is that it? Like, I just don't know. Just like a power of, yeah. Also, do you think she's seen a movie? I mean, the references, as producer Kyah pointed out,

are somewhat dated, although I guess the mastermind reference wasn't bad, but. Yeah, so the mastermind reference, let's just talk about that out. She tells me that she wrote that song after watching the Paul Thomas Anderson film Phantom Thread, which, spoiler, culminates in the reveal of a vast layered manipulative. Remember that last scene? She says, I thought, wouldn't it be fun to have a lyric about being calculated? I think at the time I was pretty adamant that I felt like that was autobiographical and not tongue and cheek and that it was serious. And I feel good about that take in this moment.

Same. But I also, like, somehow I think both can be true. I definitely think it is autobiographical. But I also believe. that on some level this happened. Finally, she says, and you brought up this quote before, this is the proudest and happiest I've ever felt and the most creatively fulfilled and free I've ever been.

Ultimately, we can conflate it all we want or try to overcomplicate it, but there's only one question. Here, she adopts a booming voice. Are you not entertained? Which I believe is from Gladiator. Yes, it is. Like, what is her deal?

again, a movie where the hero falls. When they're out to dinner at Il Bucco Elementary, and Taylor Swift is just like dropping Gladiator reference left and right. That one might have come from Travis. That one could have come from Travis. Like if there's two things Travis knows. Travis is super into early Adam Sandler movies.

Right. He knows Adam Sandler movies. He probably knows any big fighting movies. and he knows the entire Beastie Boys catalog. And it seems like he kind of knows most of Taylor Swift's catalog at this point. Yeah. I guess it's sort of a... Yeah, Kyo was right to point out that, like,

she's just very millennial in this. And that's very fun. Even though I didn't understand what was getting convoluted or overcomplicated, just like the meaning of her year in the era's score maybe. Yeah, I almost feel like that was a phrase that she'd been working for a song or something. I didn't get the overcomplicated thing. I think she really wanted to do the impression, the Russell Crow impression.

Okay. So I want to talk about, because the last thing that we need to talk about is Taylor on Reputation Taylor's version. But because you brought that up, I do want to ask you if you think that there were any Easter eggs, either in the profile or like trust issues

with the weird capital letters. Yes. I think in the piece, she intentionally says that the reputation vault tracks are fire. So first of all, there are reputation vault tracks. And also, I'm sure that that Travis calls things fire all the time. I am 100% true. But like every other sentence, he's like, yeah, it's fire, babe. That's so fire. And that he picked it up from Pat. That's fire. That's fire.

That's fire. That's actually a decent moams. I think she is guiding us that way. Remember what she said about the 19-9 vault tracks, that they were her favorite. So I think she's excited about them. She also knows that it's these vault tracks that sell and draw the attention. So she's shining a light on them,

but she's, you know, she's, I'm glad to hear her opinion. Yes, I think she, looked at the words trust issues and her weird-ass mind saw a whole lot of S's and was like, here's a chance for me to just make people chat. I'm going to capitalize the R because, yes, trust issues with the sort of memeified lowercase, uppercase letters sort of is a way to make a little less serious. A way to make fun and crazy and less serious. Yeah. Yeah, she's being self-deprecating. Like, she's trying to say, like, look, I've been burned and I'm a little skittish around this rather than like I have trauma related to...

Yeah. I will say I refused to clown that she was announcing reputation the last night in Brazil. There was, in my mind, there was no way she was doing that, especially after the terrible incident with the fan.

It just was not the right stage. I don't think she was planned, planning to anyway. No way. No way. But I think that is a subtle nod to the rep clowns in its own way. She knows what she's doing. I do, however, think that there was one huge reputation Easter egg,

which is that her aesthetic in the photos is reputation era. Yeah. We have not, the last time we saw this woman's upper forehead was the reputation album cover. And yet, here we have, the bangs have been pushed back. They've been swept away. And it has not happened since that album cover. Well, it happened a little bit when the static electricity and the desert shows got to her

and that hair stood up like she put her finger. I'm like putting my hand over my camera. You're not allowed to make hair comments. We're taking your mic away. Intentionally, she has not done this since the reputation album cover. I thought the photos were very reminiscent of that shoot.

And I wouldn't be surprised if we actually just saw, if in one of these images we saw, there's the one in particular that actually looks a lot like the original rep album cover that's just of her face and she has the red lip.

I would not be shocked if that ends up being the Taylor's version album cover. I can't believe that you won't let me talk about her hair. I'm not that surprised. Am I allowed to talk about Beyonce's hair and the discussion of Beyonce in here? And what I thought was

just a wonderful rise above it all going to shut down any online chatter trying to pit two strong women against each other by showing up for each other at their movie premieres and her flying what seemed like from Kansas City to London and London to Green Bay, basically, to watch a football game, but to be there. And how in this article,

she just finds a way to communicate what is different and unique about Beyonce as an artist and as a legacy for other female artists. I really love the words in this one, and I love the way that they have silenced the bullshit. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny.

It seemed like she really, like, paid attention to the ways in which they were, those tours were compared, which they definitely were. I think some of it was more like these are just the two elements of, these are the two huge tours of the summer. Right. But it was fun to see her celebrate that. I loved that she, it was so fun to see her in London with Blake lively. Also, Ryan Reynolds, funny man, just a funny man.

Still got it. Still got it. All right. Any other little nuggets that we need to cover before we get out of here? No, I mean, it's not even a birthday. You're not interested in the fact that Taylor Swift has a Stevie Nix Barbie that sits boxed in her kitchen? Couldn't be.

less surprised that Stevie Nix is sending Stevie Nix Barbies to people. Sending Stevie Nicks Barbies. That was like, honestly, there are really important pieces of this article. To me, if there's one that I cannot live without, it is the clause sent to her by the artist in the sentence about the Stevie Nix Barbie. Well, how about that... I think that's wonderful. How about that there's the lyrics to one of the greatest songs ever written, Blackbird,

in her bathroom? I mean, what else has she got up in the rest of that? house. Yeah, but bathroom is about scale. And also, like, not, you know, not to be, because when you have impressions, impressions, frequency of impressions. Well, right. And she has a huge, like, she has big real estate. You have big walls. You need, like, large format pieces. It's hard to figure out where you put, like, a little thing goes in a bathroom. And yeah, let's be honest, everybody uses it. And you're sitting there and you need something to look at. And it's a reminder from Paul. And written Paul McCartney lyrics. I think it works.

If I had to pee, I'd probably sit while I peed in her bathroom just to look at those. Yeah, totally. Maybe we should end the pod there. We probably should have ended it before that observation. We're never going to get invited to pee at Taylor's House after this podcast. That's for sure. Go read the piece. Compare it to Taffy's piece.

And you get what is unequivocally the best year in the history of any individual music artist. Very cool. This has been every single album. I'm Nora Pinciotti. As always, he is Nathan Hubbard. Thank you to the fabulous, the wonderful, the exceptional. Our hero, Kai McMullen, for producing this episode

and so many others. We'll talk to you soon.