Every Single Album - Taylor Swift Now Owns Her Masters

Episode Date: May 30, 2025

Nora and Nathan talk about the news that Taylor Swift now owns the masters of her first six albums, from her debut to ‘Reputation.’ They talk about the long road that led up to this deal, including the recordings of the ‘Taylor’s Version’ albums (1:00); what this now means for the rerecordings of ‘Reputation’ and her debut (19:41); and how this could shape Taylor’s art and legacy going forward (37:41). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Oh, and welcome to an emergency edition of every single album. I'm Nora Prenciatti. He's Nathan Hubbard and Taylor Swift has bought back the rights to her first six albums and now owns her entire catalog. It is Friday, May 30th. Nathan, we are on high alert. How are you doing? You are extremely excited. Listen to you.

What mastermind? I just feel, I really, there's adrenaline coursing through my veins, I'm sure yours. the veins of this pod. This also, frankly, just to like let people in on how the sausage gets made. It's happened very fast for me because this news broke while I was recording a different podcast. And so I am, I caught up and we immediately hopped on the mics. I'm thrilled to be here. I mean, Nathan, you are, you are music industry business expert. Break it down. Tell us about the transaction. Well, we're going to learn a little bit more about the transaction in the to come. I think the biggest outstanding question is whether she used entirely all her own money and

capital, same thing, or whether she used an outside source of capital in part to help. But I mean, if you just step back, you know, the first re-recordings came out in 2021. I was at Twitter in the 2013, 2014 period of time. And her catalog was being shot. in that moment in time to places like Twitter and Facebook and looking for some partner was big machine.

So this is over a decade of drama and business, you know, I mean, really, from a strategy perspective, what happened here is Taylor felt slighted and wronged by her catalog being sold to Scooter Braun without her getting the look that she wanted.

And there will be much, you know, much written about whether she ever actually had the chance at the time, whether she was, but I think, you know, there is no doubt that Taylor Swift. Or had a chance that was reasonable, right? Like she says by her own admission that she had chances to get her master's back prior to this in ways that were unacceptable to her either because she would need to sign certain NDAs related to Scooter, or there was the structure which she says was proposed where she could earn them back one by one by staying with Big Machine and continuing to make

albums under that label. Which note that, because that is a tactic that's been used historically by labels, as particular of the past few years, in response to the hurricane that she set in motion by raising the specter of artists really, in her mind, being entitled to own their masters. And so labels have, you know, because they made a deal. And in their mind, the label made a deal and put up the capital and took the risk. And a lot of the, a lot of times they sign those deals, they don't turn into big, huge hits, just like a venture capitalist. They feel like, okay, well, I'll give this back to you, but you've got to give me something in exchange for that.

regardless, she did not feel like she had that opportunity. And we got the first re-record in 2021. We got the last of the four in 2023. And we now know that the debut album is in the bank. And we'll come back to that because I got to know, did she replicate the twang or not. There's a part of me that thinks she finally did this just so she didn't have to show us the twang. But the, and it sounds like she ran into roadblocks with reputation, but I'll say from a business perspective, just from a macro level, what she did here in playing the long game is a case study in leverage and long-term thinking. She re-recorded the albums once there was a new owner, and her intent in that was to undermine the value of the original recording, because people with her leverage, she was

able to convince the DSPs, meaning Spotify's and Apples and Amazon's of the world, to feature her version in search results so that it was more likely that people were going to listen to her stuff than the old stuff. And that therefore, the value of that old stuff would lose some of its inherent value, right? You value a catalog based on the amount of money that you get paid by Spotify and Apple and Amazon each year. Right? And that. becomes almost like a bond or an annuity or a stock. You know roughly how much money you're going to make from that. And then you value that based on a future multiple of earnings. And in the industry, it can run anywhere from, I don't know, five to 20 times catalogs have been traded at how much

money they make each year. And so we don't know what Taylor Swift paid, but we do know that this project of the re-records was designed to dilute the value of the original recordings. Now, She became so popular through doing this and garnered so much support as she continued to release great music that it is undeniable that the value of her old recordings actually increased because more people in the aggregate were listening to Taylor Swift. But when you step back and say, what happened? Well, she diluted the value of those recordings on a relative basis. What they did was they created focus on each of her eras. We talked about Speak Now as an era. We talked about Red as an era.

So we really honed in on these distinct eras. Then she took those eras out on the road in the highest grossing tour of all time, put billions of dollars on the top line anyway. And then she used that money now to negotiate and buy back the rights to her art at a relative discount to what she would have done. Now, Nora, you and I have been texting about this because this has been bubbling for, for a while that this was coming. And I think you and I had a little bit of a behind-the-scenes sense that there was a deal that was close. And she, I think, rightly credits the folks at Shamrock,

who from day one, worked to engage with her in some capacity and I think clearly earned her trust to get to this point where a deal was consummated. Now, I can say to you, I'm pretty sure Shamrock made some money on this deal, but I'm also pretty sure. Can I stop you for one second? Can you explain why you think they made some money on this deal? Because from what I have seen reported, so in 2019, when Scooter buys the label, he buys it for around $300 million. Then a year later, Billboard reports that the Shamrock deal was for around 360, which also according to Billboard is about what Taylor paid.

Now, they say about, I don't know how much wiggle room they're saying is there. But if that's the case, I mean, it's been five years, right? And so I'm wondering, can you explain to me how Shamrock made some money on this if Taylor is paying now, basically what they paid for it in 2020? Well, they would have earned cash through the course of the deal on an annual basis that they put in their pocket. So they got to make money off of it over the course of those five years. Yeah. Now, we don't know if these numbers are true, but if she just bought it from them for what they paid, they got two things. They got the money over the course of those five years, which, you know, is certainly profit. But I think there's a bigger play for Shamrock. And the fact that Shamrock is in Taylor Swift's letter actually matters, because Shamrock invests in music assets and is interested in investing more into music assets. And they just got the biggest artist in the world, approval and checkmark as a trusted source.

She said that if she ever gets a tattoo, it might be a huge shamrock in the middle of my forehead. Yeah. And I happen to know some of the shamrock guys decently well. They are nice people. From the beginning, they spoke from a hopeful place of engaging with her. And I think that if they're playing the big game, this is a company that wants to invest billions and billions of dollars into artist catalog. and other music assets. And so what they probably did here was horse trade, a really great write-up and recommendation from one of their early customers in exchange for some enormous amount of goodwill from the artist community.

And for them, I think it's probably going to end up being not a bad trade. That totally makes sense to me. And she clearly, I mean, quite obviously, Scooter Braun is not mentioned in the letter that she posted an announcement. this. Shamrock is mentioned glowingly. Yeah. There just, there had been and this was some of the stuff

that you and I were texting about a little bit and it was in page six, so like dump some salt. But there were reports out there saying that the deal might be around a billion dollars. And obviously that is not what seems to have taken place. So I, but I very much take your point that the value is in. Yeah. The goodwill, the future possibilities for them as a

company and, and I, having that approval from her. These deals get structured in all kinds of ways. I mean, Haley Bieber just sold Road and the headline was a billion dollars. And when you pull it apart, well, there's a $200 million earn out and it's some cash and some stock on the other 800. So like sometimes when you're optimizing for a massive number, you can do that even if that's

actually not the number that, right? Or you can optimize for a lower number depending on how it works. I think, you know, the value here and people will do their digging. and at some point, we'll get a little more reporting about what it is. But again, for Shamrock, I think when you're thinking about deploying billions and billions, this is an opportunity to earn an enormous amount of goodwill and to look at your own shareholders and say, first of all, we did make some money on this deal, but second of all, this is going to enable us to earn the trust of hundreds of artists who in the aggregate will make us a lot more money than this Taylor Swift catalog ever did.

and that has an enormous amount of value. So that is that master plan, right? You go, you devalue the thing that you want, you undercut it by re-recording your recordings. As a part of that process, you build up this huge marketing campaign that makes you the biggest artist in the world and clearly defines these distinct eras

that becomes the thematic underpinning of a global tour that becomes the highest grossing ever. You take the proceeds from that tour, and you go back and you buy back your art. And so it is truly a mastermind class from the best CEO in music for how to use leverage, for how to play the long game.

And I'm thrilled for her because this is something that so clearly, she really started a movement. I mean, the penning that she did of the op-eds through the course of this changed the discussion between artists' representatives and labels for good.

There are definitely still artists who sign away their masters and for good reason. And there isn't always going to be a situation in which an artist should just get back the rights if somebody else has put out a lot of capital and taken a risk. That's the trade-off that you make as an artist. But I do think that forever more, and this is a good thing,

artists will have more choices about the terms of the deals that they do. They will have much more of an option and once they get bigger to get right of first refusal to buy that catalog back if they want it. And today, more than ever, there are options that artists have to do deals akin to what Taylor Swift did with Universal for her last few albums,

which is she pays them a percentage to distribute it and set it up and market around the world. But she owns it, and the lion's share of the money comes directly to Taylor. And that is something that 10 years ago really 15 years ago prior to all of this was not in the conversation

and that is a lasting impact, one of many that she's made on the business. Is there anybody else? I know when Olivia Rodriguez was getting huge, she had said in a couple of places that this experience for Taylor had made an impact on her and she had negotiated to own her master's.

Is there anybody else that has done this? What happens very, the answer is yes, but it usually happens at the end of the first term of a deal. So if an artist does a two or three or four album deal, those are sort of the norms. When those deals come up, you generally start renegotiating before the last album gets released. And in a lot of cases, a deal gets done to extend the term of that contract in exchange for getting your master's back. And so that has been... That's interesting. It's kind of like when football players are coming off a rookie contract is you have the first one and the first one is just sort of standard.

But then once you have a little bit of leverage of whether it's a label or whether it's a team saying you're really good and it's worth quite a bit to us to keep you in the fold, then you go after what you want. That's right. I mean, you know, the owners of, you know, the owners of, you know, the owners. of Facebook are now meta, the early initial venture capitalists, you know, nobody turned around once Facebook became huge and said, hey, you've got to give me your shares back now. But there are times when some other investors will come in and buy out their shares or, right, so that's always a negotiation. But I think, I think more acutely, the relationship between large corporate entities and artists has unquestionably historically been exploitative.

And in some cases, you know, certainly if you make a bet on an artist and if you make a bet on a thousand artists, most of the time, you know, 900 to 950 of them are not going to prove to be anything and you're going to lose that money. It's going to go to zero. That's not unlike the way a venture capitalist thinks about betting on companies. But the difference here is that the difference here is that artists continue to create and they continue to make more art. And so in theory, that should actually open up interesting deal structures on a business. to go forward basis like, hey, I'll give you your master's back if you allow me to be the label for the next four under these terms. So that's sort of what we've seen. But what we, what Taylor's contribution to this was this idea that, hey, technology changed what a record label brings to the table. A label used to bring distribution into CDs and record stores, right? A label brought all kinds of marketing. A label had unique sway with radio, which was the distribution platform for music in so many ways. And so you really needed a record label for your music to have any chance of seeing the light of day. And technology has

upended all of that, right? Artists through social media are now the best marketing vehicle, because they can speak directly to their fans. You and I are going to record this podcast, and an hour later, it's going to be distributed through all of the channels that just like... Shout out, Kaya. It was an album. Shout out producer Kaya. And as we're seeing in this deal, access to capital, access to money has historically been at sort of unfavorable terms to the artist. Well, now there are lots of players, like lots of players who are out there who are interested in investing in this space. My own company, Firebird, does this as well. And so I think artists have more options.

And good decisions come. There you go. Good decisions come from. from good options. And so what that at the end of the day means is that artists have more power and leverage than ever before. But it takes a large artist to lead the way, to light that lantern and guide the pack through the cave.

And Prince did this. Prince was a vocal advocate for artist rights. And I think Taylor Swift picked up that mantra and continued that journey. And you're now seeing the Lana Del Reyes of the world. and Jack Antonovs of the world, and all of the people in her orbit and beyond are posting about this,

because it really is a defining moment in the dynamic between artists and companies and a moment of empowerment for artists on a go-forward basis. It's really exciting. The thing that I am finding myself thinking about a lot over the past couple of hours or whatever it's been, is just how much this has been the aim of the last six years of her career. Like so much of what we spend time talking to each other about all the time has been about

this phenomenon of the Erez tour and the re-recordings and sort of this creation of the idea of Erez and how it brought so many people together, generations of people together, all different kinds of people, and was this phenomenon that became the biggest tour in history and this re-recordings project that was really, really exciting and groundbreaking in a bunch of ways. And that all took on a life of its own. But I think the thing that just keeps popping into my mind is that the Erez tour was about this. Like, I think it became something else. And in some ways, that's good because it's as as compelling as this fight and as I think righteous as this fight was, it is still more special that what the last six years of Taylor have become

and what the Erez tour became was something that was about everybody and not just her. But at the beginning, that tour was about this work that she wanted back so badly. And I think this is just going to be such an interesting moment for her. Because the last six years of her career, I think have been designed and, organized around this fight that is now over. And I really wonder what that means for what she's going to go and do next. Because I do think that that tour was designed to reclaim ownership of this music in a different way. Now she can do it literally, financially, contractually.

But the tour was about that before it became about Taylor Swift as a a generational artist and someone with a legacy of bringing people together and building a fan base that is unparalleled. Yeah, I think it was part of that master plan. And it's why I have pushed back on your clowning in recent weeks about Rep TV. Because I think this is a woman who has been laser and at times maniacally focused on this outcome. but she has looked to me since the Super Bowl and the end of the Erez tour like a woman finally at rest and a woman who was enjoying peace and comfort in a relationship that is clearly working for her. And really for the first time in quite some time enjoying being out of cycle. And so it was why the release of rest.

suddenly, you know, in the off season. Whatever, Nathan. Made absolutely no sense to me. And I think what she led us into, you know, it was weird that, look what you made me do. Like, we heard it again, right? Like, it was weird that she put that into a show for the second time. I would kill to know when she made that.

licensing agreement. And if, you know, it could have been a long time ago and she didn't know what was going to happen. Or it could have been like two months ago and she had a sense that this was coming and that she was probably never going to release reputation Taylor's version in full. And she was like, why don't I just make them clown one last time? Let me do it. Let me, let me make Nora watch the AMAs on a fucking plane one last time before I tell everyone that it's never going to happen.

And I've only recorded a quarter of it. Well, this woman. Well, no, she's recorded all but a quarter of it. There's a quarter of it she hasn't finished. Oh, I thought that meant, so her, she said, I haven't even re-recorded a quarter, which I thought meant she's recorded less than a quarter. Like, I haven't even gotten to a quarter of it.

Well, there's a question. I don't know. But here's what I know. This was always going to be the most difficult one to record, because sonically, I mean, we've seen how they made, there's video of how they made a bunch of this album, her and Jack in a studio, like, goofing, Jack, goofing around sonically. Like, replicating a lot of these songs and the process of recording

was going to be really freaking difficult. And for sure, the hardest. I would argue that the two that she left for the end, and this obviously is a smart strategy, even without the context of her potentially not doing it, because of this deal, that the last two, debut and reputation,

were always going to be the two hardest. And now she says she likes the way the debut sounds and that it's done. She doesn't say that we're necessarily ever going to hear all of it. But I do think that those were the two that were going to be the most challenging because of the twang

and then because of the particulars of reputation, all of those little sounds. And then also, as she writes about in describing how it became a hang-up, the anger and the raw, qualities to that album, which is, of course, very special to me. Well, and also the meltdown of her friendship with Blake lively, like, how is she going to get the kid to say gorgeous?

Wow. I hadn't even thought of that. Dang. That's crazy. So, difficult to replicate that album in a bunch of ways. Yeah. I would have loved to have kept up, like, my fake face that says, yes, this version of Getaway car is so great.

But like that album for the reasons that she articulated emotionally, but also technically, was going to be incredibly hard to put back together. And so I think we're going to see clearly we're going to see the vault just in case, just in case if it's something that you might be interested in, it's like the classic Taylor. Oh, just if we might, if we might be slightly interested in this Taylor. Again, I watched the American Music Awards on an airplane. the oh my god face uh from from early touring days shows itself again yes of course we'd be extremely interested in the vault taylor if that's something you guys would be excited about yeah if you guys would be into that sort of thing i don't know i'm just taylor swift yeah so there'll be a time and a place for all of that at some point and uh there will obviously be a time

in a place for debut which which in some ways would be the most fascinating re-release because if you go back and you listen to debut, you will hear a voice that is unlike the one in most ways that you hear on albums today. It is a different voice. It is a different accent. It is a woman who has a master plan, which is to leverage a position in country music to turn herself into the world's biggest pop star. And she will evolve in many ways as she goes through that journey, none more apparent than the journey that her voice goes through. And so hearing her go back and either sing those songs in the voice that she is in today or inhabit a character and try to redo the old twang will be fascinating.

I can't wait to see how she treats it. Yeah, and I wonder which one. I mean, I don't know the timeline and I don't know if she had a real sense that this was going to happen when she was re-recording debut. guess I can see if she was aware of the fact that she would likely be putting anything that she does put out from debut out into a world where presumably the original versions of these songs are now kind of available guilt-free to people. Oh, thank God, we can listen to style.

Oh, I missed it so much. It was the first thing that I played. I saw the note. I was like, fuck yeah, I pulled out my phone and went, bam, bam, bam,

ban, banana. Did you really? You went straight there and did it? Straight to style. You're like a woman ordering sushi

the night after giving birth. I don't know if that's what it was like, but I can tell you, I was like, I have not eaten this food in quite some time. Please come back. That's honestly good for you. Good for you for holding firm

and resisting all this. all this way. I'm still not listening to either version of Superman. Stop hating on that song. I do wonder if that would incentivize her in some way, or like, at least give her the permission to kind of have the new debut in the voice that she has now and then have the old debut be petulant teenage Taylor that we can go listen to guilt-free, which I'm very, I'm thrilled about this. I think that's a great point. I think it makes it more enjoyable as a cover of the record than having to actually, the purpose is no longer to get you to listen to one over the other. Now, she can actually do a treatment of it that makes you want to listen to

both. Yeah, she can do it so that you listen to both. I do think, like, she obviously did such an expert job in devaluing the old stuff for the time being. I think the other thing is that it seems, to me at least, like, the greatest possible value is for someone to have both, right? Because then you don't have to put them in competition with each other. And then it can just be not only does she have control over, not only does she get the streams for both versions of each song, she also has control over the use of all of her songs out in the world. So it's one thing if you want to license a Taylor Swift song. for a movie. And you sort of have two options, right? Like, obviously it's better to go to Taylor.

That's better for PR. You're not going to get the fan base on your tail. But in theory, in the past, there was some ability, whether it was music or some of the visuals or some of, like, album art, and just all of the material of her career that was wrapped up in this that doesn't just include the music. Technically, there were these other ways where people could have gone and, and, and, tried to have access to it. And now, like, we never have to live in a world where it's 20 years from now. And there's some stupid movie or, like, corny corporate project or whatever, where somebody is going to have access to Taylor Swift's work and use it for something dumb. And we're just going to have to be like, well, somebody else agreed to that. If it happens,

it's on her. But it's just, it's not just about the music. And it's wonderful to me that she has all of that. And it also is a testament to the fact that the most valuable iteration of all of this stuff is having all of it controlled by the same person who can treat it as one massive catalog that basically includes the originals and these, in some cases very precise, but these cover versions and it is all part of one life's work and career and artistic entity. Well, you're exactly right. even bigger point there, which is that there's been a historically a massive incentive problem in the music business, in that artists have fragmented their rights across multiple partners. The label owns your master. A publisher owns your publishing rights. The promoter owns the rights

to your tour. On and on and on. And what ends up happening historically is that the label really cares about sales on, you know, about streams today on Friday. Miley Cyrus's label today really is worried about how many streams are going to happen for something beautiful. In two months, they're going to probably be moving on to the next project, right? Whereas in Miley's case, in that moment, she might be thinking about ticket sales or tickets for sales to the movie. And we don't know the nature of her relationship with the label, but historically, those have been different people. But when you think about Taylor Swift, she is one of the biggest direct-to-consumer brands on the planet.

She's up there akin to Nike and Apple and these other brands that are part of her. If you are Nike or Apple, you don't fragment marketing or the incentives for what success looks like to a bunch of different partners because then, in a lot of times, they're working in competition. If the label only cares about streams and not ticket sales, well, you're probably less likely to think about ways to creatively use the music and the content that you have to sell tickets. And similarly, if all you're concerned about is selling tickets, you know, you don't really give a shit about putting out that third single and making that music video to try to catch fire

on TikTok to get the music heard by more people. And so that incentive problem has really held artists down and kept them from really fully stepping into the big direct-to-consumer brands that they actually are. And what we have seen from Taylor is, guess what, there's Taylor Swift touring. on all of her tour posters now. There's merchandise that she uses, you know, I think the universal infrastructure to distribute, but she's taking more control of all the parts of her business. And this was the last really big piece, to your point.

Now she controls all of those rights. She does not have an incentive problem. She can start thinking about the long-term value of a Taylor Swift fan. How do I want to deliver the right product at the right price and the right moment? with the right proposition to a fan. Is that a piece of merchandise? Is it a music? Is it a ticket?

And the last point I'll make is, you know, she is in a different place mentally, she just told us than she was when she recorded reputation. She is in a different place today than she was when she recorded tortured poets. This is a person who has always written from a place of feeling, and she's in a place of different feeling

that she's ever been. we all hope that that inspires creativity for years to come. But the one thing that Taylor Swift has not done, and I say this in the week in which Haley Bieber sold Road, and her friend Selena Gomez, has a multi-billion dollar cosmetic business. And on and on and on. These creators, in particular musicians, have shown that they can power, not just endorse, the way that she's endorsed Capital One or Diet Coke through the years, but that they can actually power and have ownership

in a large-scale consumer brand. It's the one thing that Taylor Swift has not done. And now, with full control of music... You know my feelings on this, but... And all of her rights, it is a thing that she could do to earn money in her sleep because Haley Bieber earned money in her sleep behind road.

Taylor Swift earns money when she's out in front of 90,000 people on the road. Now she will earn money. money from her music, which is, you know, from her past catalog, which is helpful. Passive in its own way. But regardless, it just means that she has full control to take all of her art and all the photos and all the things that she listed in that letter that was written in a font that no human being on Earth is actually able to read.

She took all of those things, and she can take all of those things, and she can point the power of them at whatever it is that she wants to do, including now, she can stay at rest for a little while. And if she wants to start a family or if she wants to just fuck off and do nothing and hang out in, you know, Palm Beach in Miami while Travis trains, or if she wants to, you know, whatever. She now has full control. And I think this is something that is very different than a position we have ever seen this woman in, in adulthood before. It's going to be fascinating to see how this affects her business decisions and her art. I will say what I've said time and time again. I don't want her selling lip gloss.

What about Chardonnay? I'll think about it. I'll think about it. I do think that she... Look, I just, I think Taylor Swift is often referred to as the first person to become a billionaire through making music alone. And, you know, those definitions are always fuzzy.

and I ultimately think that this is about art and legacy and things that are more important than money. I do think that I have more respect for art than lip gloss and the fact that she has been able to do this while making it all about the music and the touring and the work and all the things that she does to support that, which involve various types of merchandise, obviously. but the fact that it has always been about her art, I think is not only just meaningful to me,

point blank, but two, makes a moment like this additionally meaningful because, yes, there is a lot in this for Taylor Swift, obviously. And there has been at basically every turn of this process. She has, as you said, put on a master class in taking the long game in this business dealing so that it would work out to the maximum benefit of her. But I also think that long before this was a story, long before Taylor's versions were a thing, we knew that artist rights and the ability to make a healthy career

or a mind-bogglingly lucrative one through art itself mattered to her, and it mattered to her as music transitioned into the streaming era, it has mattered to her through this process. And I do think that that's come through really authentically. And it makes a moment like this feel like something more important than a transaction that happened on a balance sheet. And Taylor Swift is now going to get a certain amount of revenue because of X, Y, and Z. And that's why I don't want her to sell lip gloss.

But I'll get over it if she does. And I'll think about the Chardonnay thing. That's a loophole I hadn't considered. Well, I think what she's shown us is that she understands. brand building. She understands marketing. She understands access to and the power of capital. She understands leverage. And she understands negotiation and when to use power and when to use soft power, when to use hard power. It is a very rare combination to see all of that alongside one of the great creators of this and any other generation.

And so she can do whatever it is that she puts her mind to is the answer here. She is our negotiator-in-chief. And it's quite a, if you're wondering why she didn't respond to the Donald Trump, she's no longer hot tweet. Or did she? It's quite the comeback. Or did she? That's all I'm saying.

Maybe the real reputation Taylor's version was in the catalog negotiation the entire time. Pretty impressive outcome. Because I've just shared with you that I do find this genuinely moving. Can I ask a differently toned and possibly controversial question? Yeah. Let's go. Do you think there was any point in the past however many years where she had an opportunity to to get this done and shows to wait it out

so that she could sort of complete the narrative arc in a way? I think she had an opportunity when this was sold to Shamrock. From the moment it was sold to Shamrock, I think she could have engaged right away. And I think deals don't always just happen because the math makes sense. deals sometimes have to be rooted in personal relationships and trust. And those things unequivocally

take time. Do I think that she purposefully said no to a deal that she would have said yes to, just in service of completing the arc? No, I don't think so. I think, as she pointed to, there's a lot of rage and anger around this. And she has that in her. Yeah, but she has that in her. and those are feelings that take time to dissipate and to work through. And so could she have had this catalog sooner at this price? Probably. But it takes two to tango and deals happen as much because of the people and personalities involved. Good deals happen as much for the people and personalities involved as the price. That makes total sense to me. I wonder what this would have felt like.

like if it had come out in the middle of the tour. And I'm not sure that I would have had much of an impact because as we were talking about, I do think that it's almost a little bit forgotten how much the Erez tour was about the re-recordings and meant as a different way of reclaiming ownership because of what it became, which was different and it was about community.

And by the time that had happened, maybe it wouldn't have felt like it undermined the premise. because all of a sudden it felt like it had this different premise. Like I don't really think that it would have mattered, but it, the thought had at least occurred to me. So that's, that's, thank you for indulging my question. I've been involved in a couple of catalog sales like this before. And it's, it's a process, right? There's a lot of back and forth. You have to, you're talking about a lot of intellectual property law and rights and waivers and making sure that, you know, in fact, somebody actually has, the full rights to every bit of content and you have to document it all. The point is like a deal like this does not get done in two months. A deal like this, if it happens in six months, happened pretty quickly. And so if you just think about the ERAs tour wrapping in the November timeframe, that's when they finish the tour, they settle, they pay everybody off,

you know, that they had to pay for two years of work, that they hadn't sort of, you know, they're paying their last bits of bills. And so they understand from a capital perspective what they have at their disposal and whether they need an outside source or whether she wants to do it herself. Plus, like, you know, as we've seen, like, torturing her with this, the detail of this negotiation while she's on the road, writing a record, trying to manage a relatively new relationship. Like, it's a lot, right? So from a timing perspective, I think they always knew that Shamrock was there.

Shamrock made it very clear from the day that they purchased that they'd like to involve her in some capacity and they'd like to talk to her about that and that they were patient enough to wait. And for her, the moment would have been, okay, the tour's done. I know what I've got at my disposal. And now I can actually focus on this and spend some mind share doing this, you know, multiple month negotiation with a million lawyers to get this deal done. And that's what happened. That makes total sense to me. I also find myself thinking about the interview clip of her where she's like, oh, I'm sorry. Was I too loud singing in my house that I paid for with the money I earned for my

songs about my life? And like, that's sort of how I would feel about this. But I ask because I do think, you know, there are some haters out there. And I think there's a little bit of this idea of like, oh, everything worked out in the way that made the most possible money for Taylor Swift in a way that lets her have this big, massive, I was victimized, and then now I have emerged Victoria's. So, again, I thank you for indulging the question because I just, I, well, we know from reading the pages of People magazine, which I like to call Tree Paine Weekly, that that Scooter was in fact not involved. And if you work backwards from that, you might, uh, In that page 6 report that also said that the catalog might cost a billion dollars, it also said that Scooter was helping facilitate this, which again, in Tree Pain weekly. Feels like a plant. Yeah.

There was chatter that this deal was getting close. And so it wouldn't surprise me if somebody close to Scooter would have planted that to try to, you know, just get out in front of the narrative that is spilling out today. that's okay whatever it doesn't even matter like that's so delusional for all that we know about their history like who was going to believe and he's not referenced in the letter i'm just like who is that never made any sense the idea that like scooter brawn of all people was behind the scenes being like you guys should work this out together i just seems strange to me um but well i do believe that at some point scooter really really really wish that taylor swift own

the masters. I believe that. Well, yeah, because it had become personally unpleasant for him. Precisely. But I also am quite sure that this was a, this was a negotiated deal between Shamrock and Taylor and her reps and that, again, that this was a process of building trust and finding the right thing. So I'm thrilled for her. But it is a very, very important moment for artists. And again, a beacon on the hill for ways in which artists can chart a new path, that doesn't mean that you don't have partners in your assets. It doesn't mean that there aren't others who have some level of ownership and what you do.

Because just like when you start a company and you go and you bring in investors, they're taking a chance on you and they've got a right to make a profit when you're successful. But it is the terms of that capital and the terms of those relationships, meaning not just the length of the relationship, but what are the deal points that I think she has, she's changed permanently. Do you think she plunked down, you know, give her take,

$400, $400 million of her own money to get this done? It's not my place to speculate on that because I really don't know. There's some digging going on already about whether or not she used outside capital or she used her own. it wouldn't surprise me if she found a way to raise some debt to go buy this from an outside source. It would surprise me if she used somebody else's money.

But I think there were ways to, because of the value of these catalogs, I think she could have gone and raised a bunch of debt and combined that with some of her own capital to get the transaction done. and now we have completely put everyone in the audience to sleep about the sort of strategic financial engineering. No, no, I don't think that's true. I don't think that's true at all. As the person who is usually like nodding and pretending, I understand when you talk about Q1 and Q2, it's on my mind. Yeah, it would not surprise me if in a very private transaction, Taylor raised some debt that, you know, she's paying a percentage, you know, of, you know, of, that debt every month back to the bank, but that the catalog itself makes more than that. And so it is still a profitable transaction for her, and she doesn't have to use her own money to do it. I'm pretty sure that they probably, that would have been the smart financial thing to

do regardless. Well, and it would be a little bit strange, though obviously that she could have whatever terms of this she would want to. It would feel a little bit strange if she had brought somebody else's resources into the fold in order to facilitate this, because it's, you know, It's all about her having ownership of it. And then you sort of... Exactly. And they've got, you know, as collateral, they have her catalogs or her own assets. So she could certainly have, you know, liquidated and gone and done it.

But she didn't have to... Yeah. Also, that's a lot of money, but Taylor Swift has a lot of money. Yeah. The return on these catalog... Yeah. I'll just say that she is surrounded by fairly smart financial engineers, including her father and... and they put a deal together that had her owning this outright.

We'd hear otherwise. Can I ask you what you think of Taylor Swift essentially disappearing for the most part, with a couple of exceptions, for several months basically since the Super Bowl, and then popping up last night to go to her favorite restaurant via Corota with Dakota Johnson, Dakota Johnson's brother and her brother. wearing a doan dress that I'm sure it's sold out by now, but that in theory most of her fans could go try to buy. Like she's not wearing couture.

She's not wearing Vivian Westwood. And just like strolling out after having, I presume, her pasta and her green salad in the West Village and having her first like real paparazzi photos taken in months. And then all of a sudden this happens. Nothing she does is an. accident. Next time you're in New York, do you want to go to Via Carota? We'd have to wait in line because we're not Taylor Swift. I'm just like, I haven't been in years, but I'm just like,

she must love that restaurant so much. Let's ask a few questions and figure out what her favorite dishes, and we'll go do that and toast it together. The funny thing is they're famous for a green salad. I don't know if that's her favorite, but like it's not exactly like celebration food. Well, there's much to celebrate today in the world of Taylor Swift. The main thing for me is there's some art that's recorded. There's some stuff that's recorded that we want to hear in due time. But from a macro level perspective, it is how does this affect her ambition, her desire, the things that have historically fueled her creatively. That to me is going to be the most interesting question that will have to wait a while to. answer because I do believe that more than ever today on this day, May 30th, 2025, that Taylor Swift is finally at peace and at rest, much-deservant. How long will it go, Nora? I love the idea of Taylor Swift at peace and at rest. God knows she deserves it. I am, I disagree with you that this is a total inflection point as it relates to her.

desire to create because I think she is pathologically incapable of it. I mean, she hasn't had, yes, this is all been happening, but she has recorded album after album after surprise album since regaining ownership through her current label deal. And it has not stopped her. And I honestly wouldn't anticipate that this does. I do wonder if we will ever hear say like all of, all of debut Taylor's version. But I don't know. I'll believe that she's taken a real break when I see it. Well, her taking a break doesn't mean she disappears.

Remember, she doesn't have to do much to release all this stuff. In fact, it extends her ability to be at rest if she puts it out. She can stay in the narrative and in the conversation without having to go do the full tour. I mean, look, Miley Cyrus just put out a record today. You and I love it. our girl has been working hard, hard on that release. And her work is not done, wink, wink. And so there's a lot that you historically have had to do to promote an album.

Taylor is such a media empire at this point that not only can she get us to do an emergency pod, but she can release this stuff and then go back to doing whatever it is that she wants to do after a few social posts. Well, and put the concert tour back up on streaming. Put the, get the reputation tour video out there again. Was there another thing that was recorded and documented while she was on the tour? Like, there is so much. And I know that I've spent the last years, like year and a half since October of 2023 when 1989 came out, being like, well, I think reputations in the camp.

and allegedly that's not entirely right. I guess it depends on what hadn't even re-recorded a quarter means, if that's 25% or 75%. But I do believe that, I mean, some of those things are just not available on streaming currently and she could find a new partner for them and there are things that we've seen in the past. But I do still think that they did something else with that tour and could to put it out into the world. But I guess we'll find out.

I am finding myself thinking a little bit about how much time I've spent clowning over this album. That barely exists and probably never will. But that's my cross to bear and many other people's. And it's okay.

Go listen to it front to back. Be happy it exists. We're going to get the vault. It's all we could have hoped for. Well, we are not sad and grossed out as Taylor signed her original letter in 2019 or 2020. We are elated and amazed as she signed off on this more recent update. Nathan, it's been a minute since we had reason for an emergency pod. It feels good.

It feels good. I still feel like I've got the blood pumping. It does. It does. And I'm sorry to the clowns. But once again, she had the master plan. what a mastermind. What a mastermind.

All right. Congratulations to Taylor Swift. Congratulations to us. This has been every single album. I'm Nora Prentiotti. He's Nathan Hubbard. Thank you to Kai McMullen for producing this episode. And we will be back with our regularly scheduled programming next week.