Every Single Album - Taylor Swift's Songwriting and Noah Kahan's 'The Great Divide'

Episode Date: April 30, 2026

Nora and Nathan talk about Taylor Swift being selected by the New York Times as one of the 30 greatest living American songwriters and the interview she gave on her songwriting to accompany the feature (1:00). Then they talk about Noah Kahan's second studio album, 'The Great Divide', and how the singer continues to represent his home state of Vermont in his music (34:33) and where he has grown as a singer-songwriter compared to his first album (53:48).Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan HubbardProducer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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To mostly spend this episode talking about Noah Kahn, who I feel as though every time I say his name and particularly his last name, I'm told that I'm doing it wrong, no matter how I pronounce it. You just did it right. You just did it right. Okay. Yeah, it's a vexing name, but you have done it correctly. I'm proud of you. Noah Kahn, like sort of the end of pecan. I was prepared to have to like consplain to you on air, but you have.

done the work as always, my friend, and gotten it right, as usual. I just feel like in the beginning it was the opposite way, but I do know that I made that up and that's wrong. No, it's that it's the natural reading from somebody who doesn't know any better. Yeah, what is that H doing there? I don't know, especially for a Vermont guy. Yeah. There's weird shit in New England. It's true. Yeah. But that's more Massachusetts than Vermont. I know, but we are going to have to talk about it because as Noah Kahn, is letting us know. There is some interesting stuff going on in the Great Northeast.

But before we get there, Nathan, geez. It's just every time we try, try as we might, to move away from her, she just keeps crawling back. It's Taylor Swift in the New York Times. Nobody loves an institutional award. She will show up. I-Heart Radio.

Yes, VMA's lifetime achievement. I am in. So Taylor Swift has given an interesting interview that I want to talk to you a little bit about to the New York Times as part of a magazine package that they've done covering the 30 greatest living songwriters. So it's an exploration of a collection of... Fucking rage bait. That's what it is.

Okay. So my first question was going to be just like, how did you receive this package as a whole? Because often when magazines do these big list-based features that are glossed out and you have all sorts of different little excerpts and mini essays and quotes and videos and stuff to make it really, really fun to play around with and see what people had to say about various people on the list. and yes, it is easy to get participation

because it feels a bit like an award. But the other piece of it is, some people are on the list and some people are off the list. Time 100. I'm in. It doesn't matter. It doesn't necessarily matter, but it is an interesting exercise to go through.

Did you find this enriching in ways that went beyond just let me take a look at a list and think about, you know, No. Springsteen, yes, Patty Smith, no, like whatever it is. McCartney's not on the list? True. I mean, no. I come at this with enormous cynicism, but in support of this list, which is to say,

these kinds of lists create all kinds of online chatter, and angry stuff creates clicks. And clicks make money for the. kind of newsworthy holding people in power accountable work that I think the New York Times, admittedly in oftentimes flawed ways, is one of the last remaining institutions that does that in this country and around the world. So I am fine with whatever kind of list that you want to create in service of supporting what I think is an essential function of the fourth estate. That said, I did very much appreciate these videos. And I loved this Taylor Swift. video. I'm so glad that she sat for it. It is, did you see the, um, the last dance,

the Michael Jordan documentary? Yes, of course I saw the last dance. Okay, so there's a scene in there where Dennis Rodman is talking about how he rebounds. And he, he's decked out in the classic Rodman outfit like sunglasses and crazy earrings and like weird colored hair and weird outfit. And he doesn't use any actual words in the English language to talk about. Oh yeah, when he's just going shh-shu-ch-ch-ch-ch-exact, and then this and he's clapping his hands

and he's moving and he's doing all and then it goes, dude, boom, and you realize that he's just a fucking rebounding savant. And that,

watching that clip, which is highly available online and has been memed many times at this point is exactly how I felt watching Taylor Swift talk about songwriting in the best possible way

because you just realize how it is just, it's just ingrained in her DNA and it just seeps out of every fiber of her being. And she's in the car with Travis and she gets out with a fucking melody about Elizabeth Taylor

that she has to write about right now. And there's words that like, you know, like nobody is allowed to touch my fucking belly button, Nora. Nobody. Nobody. It's the same thing. I just get weird out. I think I'm going to pop. Like, I think I'm just a giant balloon

that if somebody touches me, I'm going to fucking pop. Okay, that's what it feels like. That is how, Taylor Swift feels about words... You caught me seriously off guard with that. That is how Taylor Swift feels about words in songs when one word ends with the same letter

that the next word starts with. Like, she just has this visceral, physical reaction to language and the intersection of language and melody. And it's genius. And I'm so glad that we have this 33-minute, whatever, of her sitting in a room. I got to invent new awards that she will show up at

so that we can get this kind of insight because there haven't been that many very serious interviews like this that aren't, we're not talking about her fucking personal life, we're not glazing up, you know, Ophelia and talking about records. We are getting one of the best ever

to talk about what it feels like to be the best ever. And half that I don't fucking understand, but I love it. Well, first of all, the format of it is interesting, right? There's no, you never hear or see an interview. right there's no interviewer credited the credits have a director and some production people but what do you think they did you think they just had her show up and start talking so they must have

asked her some questions what i think is that sometimes i've had a couple experiences where like if you're if you're a talking head in a documentary or even in certain TV segments, what you'll do is you'll go in a studio with a director or producer, and they quote unquote, like, ask you questions, but they kind of just like throw topics at you and then you respond. However, you feel like it makes the most sense to respond. So instead of a question that, you know, would go. something like a question many fans have had about a particular moment in your songwriting, Taylor, is the lyric in our song where you write that someone talks real slow instead of real low. Why did you do that? Instead, they'll say, is there anything about your process with regards to language that you think is interesting.

People will just kick very general topics at you and have you respond however it is that you respond and then those things can be stitched together. That's what this looks like to me. I think they used Joe Coscarelli. I think he was the one who drove the interviewing questions. Why do you think that? Because that's the consensus online

is that he was the one behind this. Do you know what that's, that wouldn't surprise me, but do you know what that's based on? There's a bunch of summaries that are attributing the interviewing to him in a few places. Okay. Interesting. I just would be a little bit surprised if someone who's a pretty prominent reporter for their music section did that whole thing and doesn't get to have his name on the video. It's weird. It's possible that that's part of what's sort of negotiated. I don't know. But it's a very, it's a very specific environment. And it's not just taking.

Taylor specific. That's what they do with, you know, there's quite a few of these and the videos are great. It's full of so much, Nora. It's full of hypocrisy. It's full of resentment. It's full of genius. It's full of like warmth. It's full of like insight. It is a very dense thing that I've actually watched twice today. to try to make sure that I got it all. I mean, her talking... Okay, so what, can you go through those things? What's a moment of warmth that stands out to you from this?

I think she is generally speaking alive in this interview. Yes, I agree. She seems so animated. And this is something that she wants to talk about. And, you know, when she talks about sewing and the way that she protects baking and sewing and writing as things in her life. I have a lot of things I like to do. I like to bake.

I like to make art. I like to paint. I like to sew. I like to write songs. And I try to keep it as like dear to me as those other things I just named. The way that she sort of structured all of that. There is also this overhanging thing with her about the pressure from the family. base about what people say about her, about critics and criticism, generally speaking,

which she talks about as being fuel, but she indicates at various moments through this interview that she cares more than she wants to. She cares more than she wants to tell you that she cares. She pays attention more than she wants to tell you that she pays attention, which fuels that thing. This is a person who is motivated constantly now by looking, in the same way we talked about this. She's like Tom Brady. She really is. She goes and invents reasons

to have a chip on her shoulder to keep being driven to do this thing that she is so great at. What is a moment that you pulled out? I'm trying to remember what your precise words

were. Hypocrisy? Well, you know, saying she's sitting with people these days and saying don't look online. Don't, you know, those comments don't have to be,

You know, don't spend time on that. That's not, but that's exactly what she did. It's what made reputation. It's how she bounces back from everything that she does, right? Even the reputation thing where she was like, no, you're going to get it. At some point, you're going to get it. No, in the documentary, she heard that she didn't get the Grammy. And she's like, okay, okay, I'm just going to make a better album.

That's all. I've just got to go make a better album. And in this thing, she's like, no, see, I knew you were going to love it six years later. That is not how she received the Grammy news. She took it personally. She was wounded by that. And that's the sweetness of Taylor Swift. It's the resilience of her.

It's the never quit, like, fight back. There is some historical manipulating of what we actually have on camera in terms of how she received. Also, do you think I'm the dude who judges who the people that she writes songs are about? Where she's like, dude, I wrote the song. I know who this thing is about. When it gets a little bit weird for me is when people act like it's sort of like a paternity test. Like, this song's about that person because I'm like, that dude didn't write the song I did. What do you mean? Are you the dude?

Not me. Like, but just in talking about how, you know. Like, are you the person who she's saying people try to do these paternity test things with the... Correct. Correct. I got the sense. Are we that person? I mean, literally?

Yeah. We are the dude. I got the sense that when she was saying that, and this I thought was interesting, that it felt to me like she was talking more about social media than media, more that she was talking about actually fans than professional commentators, than the press. Portions of the fan base that are always going to be extreme and always go too far.

And in fact, an admission that she has Easter egged so much that it's out of control. It's like AI is now the matrix. Like she's like, it's taken over everything and I can't do anything without some portion of my fan base thinking it means something. And now everything that I do, I have to calculate how they're going to react

and respond is wonderful. Understanding that she created this monster that she can no longer contain and that she has to live in certain ways within constraints of that and the constraint being, and this was something that I thought was a very,

very meaningful and deep insight, which is that she knows now she just has to put out the art, and it's going to be received the way it is. She cares how you receive it. But she knows at the end of the day that she can't control it. And I think in the first six, seven albums, eight albums, she really felt like she maybe was able to control it. And if anything, as she's gotten to the ripe old age of 36, it seems like that's something that she's a little bit more at peace with today than maybe she used to be. Yeah, I think so too. I even think that about yes, that reputation point doesn't entirely line up with things that we've seen of her responding to criticism of albums in the past. I do wonder if that's a little bit, two things can be true, it can be true now and not have been

true then. The one that I thought was interesting was when she was talking about, because she kind of wears this armor a lot in how she describes her experience of being a public person in this where she talks about projection. And it's kind of an I'm rubber your glue. Like there's kind of this nobody, like it's not even really possible to say anything about me because I hereby decree that anything spoken of Taylor Swift is in fact a statement about him. whoever's saying it. You are a mirror for your fans, for the media, for people on the internet, for just random, just people who don't even really care about your music, but they know who you are.

However they feel about themselves and their life will be projected onto how they perceive you. And I think that's true to an extent, but not entirely. Yeah. And I think, you know, I think there is still some ability. We hope, right? Because otherwise, what are we doing here? To perceive the person within in a way that may not be complete, but is still real. I agree. I give her some grace on that. Yeah, I totally. I thought it was, well, I also think it's a really effective, you know, way of giving the Heisman to a lot of things that she probably doesn't want to deal with. It's a coping mechanism for sure. And she needs it because who the hell is the most famous, you know, creator. in the world. It was crazy fans. And she walked out the Jane Street Hotel last night,

San Vicente West Village last night with her dad and Ashley and like, I guess Jack was there for... And Jack and Jared Carmichael? Yeah. It's kind of a fun table. Listen, I mean, I've been in that place a million times. I never see the woman, but the one time I'm not there,

she's there. She was in... I went to an event for my fiance's work at Casa Chippriani last Saturday. And because you had been like Taylor's going to Coachella. It never occurred to me. And then she'd been there.

Like, apparently she'd shut the place down on Friday. Yeah. Well, I like that she's out and comfortable going out and doing this thing. But my point is like she's walking down the stairs afterwards. She walks in and somebody gets her on grainy film. Then everybody knows she's there. So by the time she walks out, there are 500 people around. All the paparots here there.

She's walking down the stairs. Everybody's screaming at her. And she, of course, shoots two looks left and right before she gets in the car. just to give them the face card and give the paparazzi what they came for. But like all of that. It was such a red era outfit. It was.

It was. But all of that is so much for one human being to try to compensate for and to have a normal lunch with your dad that that's what she has to deal with that I give her so much grace in however she talks about these things. She's the fucking best.

And whatever she needs to do to compartmental that shit or frame it in a way that she can mentally still do her sewing and her baking and be in a normal healthy relationship with, you know, a partner and her family and her friends. Like, Taylor, you do it. Totally. The thing, though, that just sort of piqued my interest about that is that she used it as a segue into describing the songwriting process for anti-hero.

and she kind of likened it to the songwriting process for blank space. I'm taking the raw material of the portrait that is created of me in the public, in the media, and I'm using that as a creative writing prompt, as she says at some point, to write this song about that perception. And it made me wonder if I was understanding her correctly because I hear those songs pretty differently. I hear blank space is more of a satire. Whereas I hear anti-hero as, yes, taking that, taking the things that are said,

taking the characterizations of her by people who don't know her, but also acknowledging that there is some truth in some of that. That's where I was. I thought she was more self-deprecating and laughing at herself, like the sexy baby, like monster on the hill. Every time she comes to, it's a big deal and sort of understanding that, you know, she is a problem when she walks in, like,

you can't just go see a friend without all of those, she can't go out to lunch with her dad and actually without all those people around. It's just hard. Right. And so that was, it was an interesting description because it made me think, I don't hear that song as,

I hear Blankspace as a song purely about projection. Yeah. That is about the way that women are perceived in their romantic lives when they aren't, entertainers when they're celebrities, like that is about holding a mirror up to society. Starbucks lovers. I do hear anti-hero a little bit as holding a mirror up to Taylor Swift. And it felt like she was saying, no, actually, it's not.

And I'm not sure. I'm not sure I believe her. I agree. But here's the thing. It was also funny the way she talked about making all too well, how the fans made that a song. And she correlated that with cruel summer and how the fans made that a thing too. Yeah.

That was interesting to me. It is so, but she really did excavate, and we have to talk about the R song thing that I kind of mentioned earlier, but she really did solve, like, one of the great Taylor Swift lyrical mysteries of all time just like drops it in the middle of this interview. But with all too well,

I think this is the clearest statement of exactly how those new lyrics in the 10-minute version came to be in the recorded format that went on Red Taylor's version where she said, yes, it was the sound check rant. The sound check guy was smart enough to record it. Her mom ends up getting it.

They have it. So she has that to do the original song. They pair it back because they don't want it to be quite that raw. The idea of the 10-minute song, version that she mentions once offhand, the lore of that grows within the fan base to the point where it comes time for her to do this, where she decides to do this, to record the 10-minute version. And she says, I didn't have the old thing anymore.

She didn't have the sound check recording anymore. Right. And so she calls it the most extensive restoration process I've ever done on a song. She says she was digging through safes to find, like to see if she could find diaries and weird old snippets of, you know, stuff burned onto CDs that might have had a little bit of it. And so I thought that that, you know, that was something that we spent a lot of time talking about around that album was... How much of this was written in real time versus, yeah. And I think we got...

I have a sense, yeah, she did some restoration, but there was also some real-time painting of a few... Sure, some harkening back to... This is what I think it was. here is, yeah. And I'm totally, I'm very happy with that. Totally. I have no, I just, I'm, I just am interested to learn. Yeah, I'm, I'm with you on that. Which really does bring us to the fact that she says when she's talking about our song and she's talking about just the way that she can be with language and some of her specific songwriting tics, basically, that she loves alliteration at the beginning of words.

She loves pairing words that start with the same letters and the same sounds. But she has a particular bugaboo about ending a word on a particular letter and then having the word that comes after that start with that same letter. Finger in the belly button. Finger in the belly button. And so then she writes it as when we're on the phone and you talk real low and it's finger in the belly button and she can't do it. So it becomes real slow, even though it does. doesn't make sense. And I really think, like, I think that sometimes you and I in various moments together with

other people have been asked, like, if you got her in a room, what would you ask her? And this always comes up for me. It always pops into my head of like, I know this is kind of stupid and it's not that deep. But man, do I really need to know because I just don't understand. And now we do. And you could very easily persuade me that she did this entire interview just to deliver that one nugget to the fan base.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's where, like, that's sort of why I find it a little bit interesting. I love her so much. Exactly how the setup with, okay, does she know a list of topics that are going to be kind of kicked her way

by an interviewer, by a director, by whoever maybe it was a more traditional interview format and they just chose to cut the interviewer out of all of them for brevity for a focus on these people who are very very famous people that they've gotten to agree to do this but she has a real knack the first time I remember thinking this was

when Miss Americana came out just that she must keep this running list of the things that people really want to know about her that feel worth responding to. Right. Because sometimes she just gets herself in these situations where it's like she just goes down the list and she checks it off and she goes, oh, I know there's been a lot of questioning of how this happened.

I'm going to casually work it in here that that's what it was. And then boom. Yeah. Opening the Ares tour with Cruel Summer was a like, yep, you're right. This was the best one. Yes. Let's get it the fuck out of the way. Here we go.

Yes, and sometimes it is that kind of, you know, write the, not the wrongs, that's so dramatic, but like write the things that people wished were different in the past. And sometimes it is just like, connecting dots. Yes, I need you to know, I'm going to give you answers to things that you wanted to know. I loved the, I love the way that she talked about some songs as being clouds that are right in front of you and you just have to grab them. They just sort of float there and they grab them, right? Everything is a metaphor for her. It's so. wonderful. I loved the love that she gave to getaway car and the process. So this is, this is, if I could get, and I've enjoyed all the documentary stuff, I really have, this is a woman at the peak of her craft who feels like she's in a safe space to talk about it, who felt validated presumably by the bestowing of the New York Times top 30 living songwriters, whatever we have to do to put her in that frame of mind, in that space, on a camera where she's comfortable, God, it's only 33 minutes. Like, give me 33 hours of that because there's so much more.

There's so much more. It was great. You know what? The other thing that she did, where it was, It was just a subtle reshaping of a narrative that has been around the last few albums is she reframed the idea of holding on to a childlike perspective and a sense of childhood

in songwriting as a positive because she talked about young people in her mind being able to capture emotion in particularly vivid detail. There's an image. attention to detail when you are like 17 to 22 years old and you're longing or you're reaching and grasping but never holding. And it just struck me that it seemed like she was

taking a little detour to say that after a few albums where I think something that has come up in a lot of reviews and commentary is what does it mean that this person who is moving into different life stages in front of our eyes, continues to write so many songs from the perspective of youth and that field tied to the dynamics and even the metaphors and descriptors of high school or even before. And I just felt like she was kind of without saying, and hey, you know what's so unfair is when the New York Times or the ringer or whoever says that I can't get over high school. It just felt, it still felt like a little way of her putting her point of view into the mix there.

Yeah. And then they did the interview with Jay-Z, who very pointedly says people as they get, artists as they get older, who try to make music that sounds youthful or try to make music for young people when they're older come off as feeling inauthentic. and that's why I like what Clips is doing right now because they're talking about sort of where they are right in this moment in life. And, you know, I think there's probably split opinions

on whether or not Life of a Showgirl is attempting to do what Jay-Z advocates for or cautions against. Yeah. Right? Because there's some language in Life of Showgirl that a lot of the Internet reacted to. There were some moments also.

So where, as she's talking about basketball hoops and down the block and having kids, you know, whole neighborhood looking like you, whole block looking like you, probably not the whole neighborhood. Good Lord. That seems like a lot of work. But that there was... At a certain point, it presents an infrastructural challenge, you would imagine. It was the first time where Taylor was actually showing her age and maybe aging out of connecting with some younger people. But that's what Jay-Z's advocating for.

just speak your truth. Where are you in your life? Don't try to wean right. Like Madonna, God lover, in some situations it has felt like she has, at the back stages of her career, tried to inject herself back into, no, I'm still a 20-something person. Instead of doing the share thing where share, it feels like at least owns who and where she is in life. Love share. Yeah.

And that's not, that's like a subtle thing. but very interesting that those comments that you just made were sort of juxtaposed with the Jay-Z interview where he spoke about the creative process in aging as well. Non-Taylor question. What did you think about the fact that Lana Del Rey is on this list? I don't like it. I mean, I don't want to knock it.

If McCartney's not on the list, you kind of say the list doesn't work. I think there's a lot of people who are amazing songwriters. and in fact what they erred on the side of was songwriters who are also publicly facing people. Like, where's Amy Allen on this? Yeah, well, and Amy Allen, oh, who did Amy Allen? Who did Amy Allen do the blurb for? Was it Mariah?

Yeah, okay, fine. Yeah. Well, and just in terms of the methodology, they polled pretty extensively and then I believe used some other tools to kind of, you know, wisdom of crowds. It's a click factory. That's fine. It's fine. Just please report on the truth of what happens in the world. It's fine. It's a click factory.

I think it's a little more than that. I had fun clicking through it. I think that you are right that inevitably all of these, the reason that magazines do these packages is because they create discourse and they generate a lot of interest because they create discourse. I think that's fine. But I think that, I don't know. I feel like they put a lot into it. I thought it was. very interesting to click around. I thought some of the, I thought Stevie Nix's tribute to Taylor and that blurb was pretty lovely and moving. And Taylor sort of talking through the whole Clarabo thing, which, uh, no surprises there. That's exactly how we understood the song. So that's nice to know that we're not, she didn't say dude when we, uh, when we interpreted it that way. But yes, it was enjoyable content. But I'm not going to allow myself to get worked up and angry over it because I understand its foundational purpose is to do just that and to create discourse and opposite sides because that fuels clicks, which fuels revenue, that supports the newsworthiness of the business.

Go with God, New York Times. I think it's sort of... Paul McCartney should have been on the list. Yeah, Paul McCartney should have been on the list. I think I'm glad that... Lana really has created some ripple effects. I don't know. I just...

What are we doing with Lana? I find her interesting. I find her endlessly fascinating. She's not one of the 30th, 30th, she's not the 30th best songwriter in the world, living songwriter. But it's fine.

Ed Sheeran. Lana Del Rey is a better songwriter than Ed Shearin. I don't think the numbers say that. I don't think the numbers answer that question. Ed Shearin has a lot of big ass hits that he doesn't even sing. Yeah, but I think that's what, You can also, you can see that, like, one of the things that does from an editorial perspective

tend to go into the creation of these things is they don't want a certain type of redundancy. Mariah Carey is an interesting person to include on that list, right? But it was very clear in the way that they framed that selection that what does she represent there? She represents, she has a writing credit or a co-writing credit on. 18 of 19 number one hits. So Mariah Carey is there to represent someone who can craft a pop smash. And that is what the accompanying essay

and all of those materials. Or a motherfucking Christmas song. Or a motherfucking Christmas song. Absolutely. Roll it, Kaya. And so I think if there's someone, you know, I don't think that Ed has quite so strong of a case

in that lane. But it's like, then the lanes get blocked, right? and they're looking for something else. And I do think that the case that was made about Lana as someone who really has managed to navigate a modern music environment where we spend so much time talking about what's derivative and what feels like it is reheating the nachos of the past

to chart an extremely individual chorus that then so many other artists have adopted. I just thought it was an interesting choice. compelling. This episode is brought to you by Activia. You might already be eating yogurt, but not all yogurts are created equal. Activia contains over one billion probiotics per serving to survive and reach the gut alive. When it comes to gut health, Activia is the number one family doctor-recommended probiotic yogurt brand.

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Okay, now we've talked about this for probably more than half of our podcast, but shall we talk about Noah Kahn? We should talk about Noah Kahn. Yeah. I have to tell you that I'm glad that we talked about Taylor to begin with, and it was funny that she gave the somber love and her admiration for somber saying that, you know, him writing about that stuff, making it not messy, but confessional actually matters for women. because that's my pitch for this album.

That is my pitch for The Great Divide, which is that, like, at a time of confessional writing that's being done mostly by women, again, Taylor Today praising Somber is, like, the example of that. I think this Noah album, like, gives you so much that you can see yourself in. Like, it's sad to be sure, but, like, for me, what's remarkable about it is that,

It encompasses so much of the music that has been championed by Red America. And instrumentation that shows up in the American South. It's got these hallmarks of country music, banjo, fiddle, but also like campfire sing-along stuff that runs across this. But the main thing is it retains this element of masculinity while talking. talking about male feelings. And it's all coming from someone who appears to be a fairly liberal northerner from Vermont. And I say that because that's a very hopeful thing for me. A, I think it's important because it is someone on the male side of the ledger

speaking intimately about his own feelings. I don't think there's broad commentary on the world, right? He's got enough going on in his head to fuel 21. songs. This is primarily an album about becoming famous. It seems that the great divide, the title of this album, represents this gap that he feels between the people who raised him and the place where he's from that is so central to his work and also the ways in which his life has changed dramatically and how that presents complications. And he's putting himself and other people's shoes and writing about himself through their eyes.

But fundamentally, he's talking about emotion and feelings in a way that, for me, feels both confessional and masculine. And that has been something that, I mean, I missed that on the Harry record. I love the Harry record, and I'm listening to it more than I think a lot of other people are, and I think it gets stronger as it goes. Yeah. But there isn't something, it's not rich text. And I think that, again, the Harry,

And we did talk about this. The Harry record, which I also continue to listen to it. I like it quite a bit. I agree with you that I think I like it and listen to it more than most. But even from the beginning, something we spent a lot of time talking about is that that album feels,

especially to me, like someone who really does not want to tell you about themselves having to write a pop album. And that's a tough thing to do. Yeah. And I don't think that Noah struggles with that. No, he doesn't. I mean, I have to tell you,

like, I am deeply, impressed by this. Following up stick season, which in a lot of ways I think was a unicorn of an album, is hard. But I also, for me personally, I just have to tell you heretofore,

I was kind of annoyed by Noah. And the reason that I was annoyed by him was I loved dialed drunk. And I loved. And I loved, I love, I'm drunk. love stick season. And I heard him

on, but it's the season of the sticks live, she forgot that I exist. And then I saw him live. And I wanted him to be this brooding Zach Bryan kind of guy. And you go see him live

and he's kind of goofy. He's wearing like fucking vanilla ice weird print 90s fashion stuff. He's got the double braids. He's like he makes these silly bug-eye faces when he sings. There's more joy, this sort of Bonair appearance live. To me was like off-putting.

I wanted the guy who fights cops when he's drunk. I wanted Johnny Cash. It's interesting. I want a danger. Lindsay Zolads reviewed this album for the Times, and there was a section of that that talked about him as more convincingly tortured than Jack Antonoff, but less likely to get in a bar fight than Zach Brown.

Ryan. Yeah. And it's, it, it, it just seemed to pose an interesting question to me of like, okay, where does that leave him? Yeah. Well, that's it. And I, I just, I think, um, I didn't feel that watching him live. And that was off-putting for me. There was a, there was a disconnect between listening to him and then seeing him. And it wasn't his own physical appearance. He's so cute, like as a dude. Like, and he's like, How can you not like him? He seems like a really good guy who's, you know, again, he's doing the world of service as a man talking about his own inner struggles

and finding constructive outlets for these feelings that like... Well, he's never been someone who led with anger. Actually, it's funny. In pockets of this album, there's a bit more, but it's more, I think, about melancholy. Sure. But in this moment of like, confusion and displacement and mistrust and uncertainty and insecurity for a lot of men,

those are fundamental feelings, but that still exist alongside the baseline natural feelings of love and closeness to family and friends and locality, right? And a desire to make the best life possible. All of those things are blended in a way that I think for him, he's finding the right, for those things. And I think it's important. And I didn't think prior to listening to these 21 songs that Noah Khan was an important artist. And I think after this album, that he's an important artist. There is something very, I mean, he's, he is, he is northeastern, right? That is so, such a big part of the whole thing. And I do think that there's something that especially comes through.

in this music that reminds me of what you're saying, where, you know, maybe I'm preoccupied by this because it's where I'm from too, but it's an area of the country where it can be just as much the boonies as is stereotypically assigned to places in the south, but there is this air of, there's like a weird superiority complex

that also gets layered on top of that. And, you know, I don't even know if there's much musical that has to do with this, but the song headed north, I just really responded to because... Well, it's a great song. It's gone to shit without you. No shit before, but at least I had you. The line about the fucking coexist bumper sticker. That's my favorite lyric on the album. with a co-existent sticker on the bumper of their car.

Now, you and I both have New Hampshire connections, so maybe that's what it's happening. I've spent a lot of time in the parking lot at the Brattleboro, Vermont food co-op. And so let me tell you about the coexist bumper sticker. There are a lot of them in that area of the world. Yes, there are a ton at the, yes, at Moultenborough Farm in Center Harbor, New Hampshire, too. Same thing. It is this, it's just, it is that juxtaposition of, you know, there can be like a type of rural hopelessness.

And there's, there are pockets of serious poverty, drug abuse. Like, again, like all these things that we typically spend a little bit more time focusing on as it relates to the American South. But then you also do have the overlay of Northeastern Aucing. And the Harvard track team. The Harvard track team makes an appearance on this album. Right. And just the way that he combines those elements rings very, very true. Yeah.

It's not fit. Listen, I think that this is going to be a summer soundtrack. Not, it doesn't have a song of the summer for me. It doesn't have a stick season breakout hit. it's not something that people are going to revel to, but it feels like music that's synced to the background of people just making their way through life in a really difficult, confusing time.

And it is wonderful for that. And I find it like, I'm reminded that stick season became a thing, not overnight, right? That was a slow, like two years after. he released it is when it really started to peak everywhere. And so maybe that's going to be the process here. But we think about the Northeast, like just geographically, right? Most of it is city to city to city. Like you go from D.C. to Philly to New York to places in Connecticut to Boston. You are in urban for the most part and suburban areas. Once you get north of Boston up 89 or 93,

that's where you start to get to really the only rural parts of what qualifies as the Northeast. And so there's, it's not fair to even remotely associate Noah Khan with Bruce Springsteen. You shouldn't do it. It's not the same thing. There are people who are starting to like be like, hey, maybe this is a modern day Springsteen. He is like Springsteen in that he's a student of locality and geography and his hometown. and he's deeply shaped and affected by that. And he is also a poet about that hometown,

an advocate for and also a critic of his hometown in ways that Springsteen was. The comparisons should stop there. And that's not a knock on Noah, but it's just unfair to hang that around his neck. This is not a helpful comparison. It's not helpful, but it is something that's very interesting about him as a writer.

he really harvests the feelings of hometown leaving family, friends, what happens as you grow and evolve in ways that not a lot of writers do today. So I'm with you, and I do think that his superpower is the ability to write about that locality. I think he's pretty marvelous at it. Is this album too long? You know what? No. I didn't love the trick.

I didn't love the trick of withholding four songs and putting them out a few hours later really for marketing juice to try to goose the chart. And by the way, this is going to, but this is this is going to land at number one. It looks like it's, you know, the numbers have been creeping up. It started at 250.

Now it's going to do like 335, $335,000. Yeah, I mean, NoaCon is, more widespread and has more listeners and fans than, like, it always catches me by surprise, just how big he is. And that's still only 60% of what Harry's first week number was. So let's not get too out over our skis about this. I hear you on the length. Yeah, but Harry Styles is like the, you know, Harry Styles is the guy in pop music making art that is more custom-fitted.

to be popularly consumed. Around the globe, too. Around the globe too. And then that is global as opposed to something that is even hyper-local with no-a-con. No-Con doing 60%

of Harry Styles is like a pretty remarkable thing. I think Noah has been gone for a while and I think that this is not a vibe for every... Look, the hard thing to do

to follow up this unicorn-like stick season. And he's done something to me that feels like robust and rigorous and established and permanent. I don't think there's a hit on here that's going to persevere in the way that stick season does. And I don't think these vibes are for

everyone, but anyone who buys this... If what he does didn't hit me in a way that is just specific to my biography and geography and the things that matter to me in life, I don't think it would be for me. Like, this doesn't tend to be for me. It's just that I just, I really relate to it, and therefore it pulls me in in a different way. And then once I'm in, there is a lot to get from that.

Okay. So, so, so two things. One is just to start close off on the, on the four expanded tracks that got added in, uh, I think they are very important tracks. And I think a few of them are some of the best on the album. I think them being interspersed. in the narrative and flow of the album is an interesting, albeit sort of in retrospect, simple thing to do, but it's not just like, hey, here's another set of songs. It's actually like, hey, the track listing is actually different. And now go listen to it and see how these songs connect from one to the next. And I think, you know, standing still and a few others, Orbiter, for example, I think both of those have intentional places on the album.

bad, you laugh and this is hard but I feel this part But I I really like staying still I want to I mean I hear you because it's long It's an hour

And a lot And can I Let me Like this fucking podcast today Okay Let me expand on that a tiny bit At the risk of At the risk of being too verbose

It's not I'm being a little facetious and saying, is it just too long point, Blake? Well, I wouldn't know we'd kill. I think, well, so let's talk about it. It's a hard question because I have no problem with an hour and 38 minute album as a concept. I actually, you know, I like the work that's required to do that. There is a sameness to this.

Yes. That I think. Yeah. And I guess that's a, that's a, that's a. a complimentary way of talking about it. I found it to detract from the high points that you know, because it's not

sonically super varied. Did it feel like the back half of tortured poets? Well, no, because tortured poets was fucking all over the place. Like, tortured poets, yes, you'd been there for a really long time. And maybe I could make an analogy to what you're talking about with like the, not the back half of tortured poets. Marcus Siv and Sophia and then.

Robin. and then we're like, God, this is just Aaron Dessner's hard drive getting dumped out and Taylor writing stuff over it. Yeah, so maybe a little bit of that, not the back half, but the back half. Which, by the way, she talked about in the interview and gave it a specific name, top, whatever she called it. Toplining. Yeah. What? That's what it's called?

Okay. I think you might have invented that just because you're fucking the best in the world at taking somebody else's music and within about 30 minutes turning around a world mind-bending hit because you're the best at melody in words that ever existed. It's not just the... What are you trying to... You're trying to start discourse now. It's long. The Sonics aren't super varied. The themes, though interesting

and of personal appeal to me, are also not super interesting. If you listen to this album, top to bottom... I'm sorry, I don't mean super... I didn't mean to say super interesting, are not super varied. If you listen to this album from top to bottom, you are going to hear... About a lot of bugs.

About a lot of bugs. And in the Vogue is the bugs are just starting to die. Call me when the bugs don't die and the spring looks just like autumn. Seasonal bugs in a canvas tent. You are going to be driving in a car. upwards of a dozen times. Richie and Austin are often long for the ride. It lacks your place for CB3A.

Didn't know you drove American cars. We're driving through the garden state will be strangers in the morning. I see you driving. But you don't care and I don't mind at all. I got the car you got the bag, a handwritten, know that for Mom and Dad. Stone took the phone lines down. And now your ride can't call. It'll hurt half as much if you drive twice as fast.

The little pebble marks on your car door, the sound of your feet and the gravels. Talk about the long ride home from the grave. The seasons, they're changing. It's cold. And there are feelings that are associated with that. You are going to hear depictions of northern life. Yeah. And you are going to hear.

to hear... You're literally going to hear the woods. You're going to hear the woods. You're going to hear multiple different songs that are about... From different points of view, but are about the way that Noah comes and goes

from the community that he came from and how he thinks people receive that. Right. Including his mother, including his best friend. Including his mother, including his friend. Yeah. I think it needs an edit. what that edit is

is tough because there's nothing that sucks on here and there's nothing but there's and there's also nothing that like truly sores I mean the songs that and I think it's because of just sort of the overall feeling of plotting through it a little bit but the songs that tend to

take a long time to unravel and pace and plod the most are the ones that I tended to have particular trouble with. Lighthouse, I had hard, I just was sort of like very aware that I had X number of minutes left to go. Had you listened to the original when it came out before he released Lighthouse?

In other words, did you listen to Lighthouse for the first time in its sequential order? Or had you already listened to the other stuff? I listened to all of this in full sequential order with everything out. So deluxe. So when you heard Lighthouse, it was in fact the whatever fifth song that you were listening to. Yeah. Okay. And then same. Sounds like Bonny Ver to me. Yeah. As does like we go way back. He, I mean, Bonnyver is singing on the song Downfall, which is before Lighthouse. Keep my ear up to the door. And I'll keep brooding for you down. And I'm not sure it's a coincidence that he then put Lighthouse right after it, where he is singing like Bonnevere.

Sure, sure. But the difference is I, like, downfall, downfall has features that grab me. It does have dead bugs. But it has, there's a delicate touch of what the music sounds like that's paired with. Yeah. You know, there's, there's bitterness in that song. And then there's ways where it actually isn't about bitterness and it's actually like wanting someone to come back. and that interplay

just felt like it was in a slightly different emotional register and just the difference of that, the listening to an album and having it expand and contract and move and shift and like that was really pleasing to me. And

the songs where I had less to feel like I could differentiate it from the rest is where I think I had a harder time. I really like staying still, I think that's my favorite song on the album. It just instantly

becomes a Boston classic alongside stick season, right? I mean, you're talking about Starro Drive. I know. He and Gracie Abrams need to have a like writing about the Charles River off. Yeah. Yeah, it's great. I think

dashboard is great. That's where Amy Allen jumps in and makes an appearance. It's cute. I also love that. The change your zip code turns out you're still an asshole line is really good. It's wonderful. And like the random douche that he's... I also think, like, I like how preoccupied he is with just like, just like really hoping that he's not a dick. Yeah.

Which like sometimes I think when we talk about confessional songwriting, like we want it to be a little bit like bigger than that or deeper than that. But like think about your own life, right? Like think about how much time we're all spending just. like really hoping that we leave this earth a little bit better than we found and that we're not an asshole along the way. Yeah, it comes from a good place. It percolates through so much of his communication that it projects the insecurity that he feels, right? And even in the, you see it in the documentary that's on Netflix where he is, you know, deeply self-conscious about his own body and, you know, deals with panic and anxiety and all the things that help you understand

what he's going through and that I'm sure are fuel to use Taylor's word for some of this writing. But that dashboard actually ends up feeling like a confident and it rises above. It's not quite a banger, but like...

But it kind of is. And I mean, and staying still is big and anthemic too. Yeah, those are the two for me that really jumped out. I liked Orbiter a lot. Rain on a steel roof leaks through the Feeling hits the patrons in the ballroom.

Feel like maybe that's about him losing at the Grammys. It was rainy that day. Like it's kind of a love song to his wife for caring for him in a moment of like, you know, again, in insecurity. Yep. 23 was interesting for me, the sort of arpeggioed. He sounds like fucking the Maroon 5 guy,

Adam Levine. Adam Levine. Adam Levin. He sounds like, You broke in and still tired of from my living room Kind of mix all the other parts boring In like a good way Like his voice sounds like I was like

Oh I didn't really realize Like he can be sometimes wanting I thought all them horses was good Like there's a lot of get around the campfire With the guitar and sing this stuff And I just feel like This is going to be in the background At a lot of parties

You know on Long Island And in Winipasaki And on the Cape and up in the woods this summer. Yeah. Yeah. All Them Horses, I think, is an example of a song that if I listened to it slightly more fresh, I think I actually would have been like pretty moved by it and pretty impressed by it.

No, I want to beat it battle. Everyone that's happening a photograph. I crossed the kind of line. I can not go back up. And I was, I, I dragged myself. to the finish line. I was like both into this album and also I had to kind of drag myself through it.

Interesting. I mean, how do we, I mean, I think the Great Divide is the biggest song. People seem to be liking doors, but like I think The Great Divide is going to end up being the biggest song unless staying still or dashboard catches fire. Yeah, it's funny.

It's like both of those songs feel bigger to me. Yes. Then, not necessarily than, the great divide because the like I hope you settle down I hope you marry right like that's such a

that's a hook in a way that there aren't that many like hooks it's just so Perth like it's Perth like it's Perth from Boni Verre like the lick is the same like he's got he's got his influences

coming out his pores in a few moments on this album but that's okay yeah because I do think the style is uniquely his now. And I think it's a legit art form. And, you know, to your point, it's just, are we getting too much of it? It's like, phony berries to Wisconsin. It's like, yeah, it is. Everybody needs their regional troubadour. And that's, that's what he is. And that's why to me,

it doesn't feel too long because I, I know, but it's like, it can be a soundtrack. It can just be a soundtrack, not a, not a, not a upfront. It's not cruel summer. It's, it's, totally. It's just like, it is amazing to me and a little. I know, but it's like, it's a little. bit without taking anything away from it, it's a little boggling to me that this guy is like doing spitting distance of Harry Stiles numbers, singing about Vermont. Yeah, but it's closer to Zach Bryan than Harry Stiles. Yeah. And that's what I think is unique about it.

And that's why it's interesting is because it's coming from fucking Vermont, not Oklahoma. Yeah. Or South Texas. Yeah. Yeah. Is there anything that, like, really you wanted to kill? No, I agree with you that the arpeggiated stuff on 23 is kind of cool. That's another one where I find it a little slow to get going,

and it comes after that sort of pickup of staying still in dashboard. And that's maybe a skip for me. Okay. But there's nothing, there's nothing offensive. I think there's just I think there's just a feeling of a little bit being overlaid in. This is going to be very interesting

to see how this endures and in particular with young 20 somethings late teens who really got behind six seasons and Dowdrawn. And whether this becomes that sort of Northeast soundtrack almost like Dave Matthews band

became their thing. And it's a, acoustic, but it was regional focused, and it got adopted by every frat and sorority in like, you know, small liberal art school as background party music, hang out around the campfire. Somebody can actually play this pretty easily. We'll see. Do you think that you hear, how much do you feel like you specifically hear Desner on this? You know, I don't, I think he's on.

nine or, I think he's on nine. Yeah, he's on about half of the songs. Nine of 21. And so I actually was surprised that there wasn't more Destner. I think that, you know, from a collaborator standpoint, if we were going to pick most important, it's Gabe Simon, who seems to really have his fingerprints over all of this. And had his fingerprints all over stick season. Yeah, and there's cool stuff here. Like, I don't mind hearing the crickets and the cicadas at night. Like, I don't get those in California. And I miss. those. I grew up with them. And there is something, by the way, at the end of Remember Two Things, that Dave Matthews band, they put microphones outside and captured a rainstorm at night that then

ends and you still hear what you were hearing on this record. There are some parallels there, for sure. And it wouldn't surprise me if he had a few of those albums tucked in his collection back in the day. But yeah, I think this. It's a fairly small group that seems to be around this. Carrie, like, there's just a small select number of them that do it, and it's not complicated production. There's no... There's no role for Jack Antonoff in this, right?

It is a very acoustic-driven with a few, you know... What would he even do? They'd have to, like, tie Jack to the roof. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, my sense is that Aaron really connects with Noah because they both sort of struggled with mental health and that Noah really puts words to things that I think Aaron has tried to on his own.

Yeah, and feels. And so that's a nice connection. But Aaron did the Mumford record that I think is terrific. He did this record. He's definitely fully behind the Gracie album that she is now teasing us on an almost daily basis about. So it's a big year for him. as a producer, but I do think

in hindsight, although he's behind a bunch of the songs that I like a ton on this album, I wouldn't say this feels like an Aaron Destiner record to me. Does it to you? Maybe that's a compliment. I feel mostly the same. I just think it's an interesting I also like that they brought in

Amy Allen even just for the one song. I think he seems to be able to get good work out of really, really amazing people without necessarily like he keeps it in his wheel house. It doesn't have to

you know dashboard just feels to me like yeah there's something cool that came from Amy but it's still what he would be doing and and did willing and able move you at all? Yeah.

I'm within able this rock around. Yeah. Yeah. Me too. I dig the, if you want to kick this rock around. I mean, he has said that it's not autobiographical, but again, there he's writing about sort of watching the relationships from a sibling perspective, but it, uh, in his, with other friends and people in his life. But that one I thought was, was really nice. Yeah. Haircut? Yeah. Can you go home again when you're famous? Even if you're in a bad place Even if you're making fast

Yeah, see again, like I think It's a good, I think some of the lyrical writing is really strong You can argue that All of the songs that we just talked about are about that And like I think that that's what this album is about, right? Like, again, like, I think that's what the great divide is. I think it is the before and after of him really blowing up

and sort of contending with his new realities but like as individuals I think they're all pretty impressive I found the cumulative weight

of them to be for it to be diminishing returns a little bit well if I had to kill one song I think I'd probably kill

paid time off we don't care enough to drive that far it's been a damn near perfect day just getting high at the hour I didn't love it.

It starts as a little waltz. I prepared for the warfare with a voice in my hand. There was just something about it that... I got really distracted in that song trying to figure out which outlet mall he's talking about. Okay, fair enough.

Like Foxborough? Yeah, I don't know. But he... And it sort of gets stuck there between Downfall Lighthouse. and staying still. So it just has a place that I, there are some others that I, that I might have moved up.

But I hear you on the length. I just thought that the quality from start to finish was at a very high level, not breakout hit level. But I didn't expect that he had this in him. And I think it is an impressive follow-up to something that, you know, as we talk about all the time,

Sixth Season was not his first album, but it was the album that made him known. And that's a very difficult thing for an artist, particularly an artist that struggles with the kinds of things that he struggles with to deal with. What does this make you think about what happens next? I mean, he goes on tour with this. Yeah, I'm going to, this is one where I'm really going to watch the numbers.

It doesn't, I mean, it looks like staying still is it punching above its weight in terms of its placement and the track listing. It looks to me like Doors is doing pretty well. It looks to me like dashboard is doing pretty well from a relative standpoint. So I wonder if there is a song that's going to come as a sort of single feature track that they try to push as a summer song of the summer. I again will just say, I think this is a good summer soundtrack.

I don't know that there's a song of the summer here. For him, he's going to go on tour and play these songs. and we're going to figure out just how big he is from that tour. I mean, I think there were a lot of eyebrows that went up with how many tickets he was able to sell outside of the Northeast. Mine included. Yeah. And my own personal feeling is that for the people,

this vibe is not for everyone, but for the people who it is for, they're going to love this, I think. And I think some of these songs are going to hold up decently well live. Again, staying still, dashboard, just those two alone. you've got some rock-banger stuff that will carry an amphitheater or a ballpark or, you know, something even bigger. So we're going to learn a lot from this tour, but I think that he is breaking through, in particular in a moment in which we don't have as many male artists that are selling, you know, that are streaming in this kind of genre. I was going to try to make a somber joke, but...

I don't... Yeah. I'm not there on somber yet. I mean, we've talked about it. I'm not getting a lot of DMs do somber. Yeah. Except from Taylor Allison Swift, who is doing a sci-op chaotic good campaign on us

to try to get us to do somber. I just would love to know exactly how... Like, not that I don't think that it can be organic and that I don't think that it is in some way. But like, there has to be some process because it is such a big thing to do because of who she is. Where what is the little birdie that lands on her shoulder where it's, oh, and hey, when you're on the late show, why don't you shout out Tate McCray? All the kids are loving Tate McCray right now. Hey, what if you were, what about somber?

Maybe somber. Everyone isn't a somber. Let's say what's sorry. Like, how does she pick exactly who she's going to sort of. Chris Caraba, Haley Williams, Fallout Boy, feel like predecessors too somber. I think you can draw a through line there, and she's into that shit.

I mean, it's why she was in the 1975. It's the mystique of this sort of strange-looking dude who sings his face off. And dresses like Harry Styles. There you go. Do you have a grade for this album? I do. Do you want me to go first?

I do. Okay, I gave it a B. Wow, you really? You just, you're a classic fucking New Englander. You just can't support one of your own. You got to just tear them down. That is not true. That is not what I'm doing. You're like fucking Ben Affleck with Matt Damon in Goodwill hunting. You're like, get the fuck out of here. That is absolutely not true. Every day I show up your door and hope you're gone. I, like, you know how sometimes this doesn't happen to me that often, but there are albums. that I will listen to that I know I like and I still kind of want to turn them off. Yeah. And I had that with this. I mean, this is as low a grade as you have given since Katie Perry's 143. Okay, I gave Katie Perry's 143,

I think like an F minus. Yes. I know. This is, it's Katie Perry's one four three. A B is not that bad. I've given a B. Well, I don't think you're far off. Absolutely given a B.

But I knew in the first two minutes, that I was going to grade it higher than you, which almost never happens. So I gave it a B plus because I don't give an A to anything that doesn't have like a big smashing hit that comes out of it. But I really was impressed with this. I am impressed with it. I'm impressed with him as an artist. I take him seriously.

Me too. And I think there's a chance that he is going to, you know, in the words of Taylor Swift, we wonder why Charlie Puth isn't a bigger artist, that Noah Khan is going to be one of the three biggest U.S. male artists of 26. He sold Puth Corner. Is that what you're saying? Well, no, no. He's surpassed the Puth Corner for sure.

But like, you know, we got, I mean, Zach Brian's out there doing it. Morgan Wallen's out there doing it. You know, this is an artist that, you know, Harry's going to have his residencies. But I think Noam might be next as like, well, no. You got Bad Bunny, blah, blah, blah. So let me not, let me not over exaggerate.

but I do think that he is ascending to that tier of, let me put this way, I think it's possible that by the fall, this guy could play Patriot Stadium, could play Foxborough. Yeah, that's crazy. And others up and down the East Coast, that it could be evolving that big. I don't think he can play, he can't do, he can't go to Dallas and do that, but he can do that regionally. But he might be able to go to Michigan, which Zach Bryan did.

he might be able to go to Vanderbilt Stadium in Nashville. Like he could go do these college campuses. And that's why I'm interested to see. This is coming out right at the end of the university college season. Does this become something that is around people's campfires and outdoor shit that they do this summer up for kids who are 18 to young adults at 24? Like, let's see. Because if it catches in the season of the sticks, it'll burn. Okay, well, the season of the sticks is famously like November, but...

By the season of the sticks. By the season of the sticks. It'll burn. All right. I think we'll leave it there. This has been every single album. As always, I'm Nora Pinciotti. He's Nathan Humbold.

Thank you to Kai McMullen for producing this episode. And to you for listening. We'll talk to you next week. One of those media strategy people clicking through slides, scrolling spreadsheets. Yes? Good. This is for you. Because on Spotify, there's an audience that's different.

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