Every Single Album - 'The Art of Loving' | Every Single Album: Olivia Dean

Episode Date: October 23, 2025

Nora and Nathan talk about Sabrina Carpenter pulling double-duty as the host of 'SNL' last week (1:00) and on the other side of the coast, Charli XCX popping up at Lorde's show to perform "Girl, so confusing" (11:28). Then, they talk about the sophomore album from British pop star Olivia Dean, 'The Art of Loving.' They discuss how Dean is similar to Adele, both in origin and sound (20:57), her brand of easy-loving music (38:46), and where they envision Dean's career going from here (51:19). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan HubbardProducer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to every single album. I'm Nora Prynciatti, and as always, I'm joined by Nathan Hubbard. Nathan, hello from, I believe, the same city that you are in, but we are not together in the same room. Nevertheless, how are you doing? Are you in Los Angeles? Oh, I forgot you were going to be here. No, you didn't. Don't lie to the people.

Do not lie to the people about this. No, I'm not lying. I forgot that you were going to be here. Last week, you told me you were going to be here. but you're in a part of Los Angeles that is very, very far away from the part of Los Angeles that I'm in. I know, this is true, this is true.

And so that's kind of like you telling me that you were coming to Connecticut and I was in New York or something. Yeah, no, it's true. I'm simultaneously giving you... But I now are realizing you're close. I'm giving you a little bit of shit and also saying that I nevertheless

feel a closeness and feel a kinship. That's why you're in that studio. Oh, man. We're having our little annual... I miss you, nor. Ringer Core Week, our little onsite. We're all getting together. I haven't seen Kaya yet, but I will see Kaya.

And here's what we're going to do today. Because as I think everyone knows, we certainly know. We've spent the better part of the last month. You could say even more. Mostly talking about Taylor Swift, which is, of course, something that is very near and dear to the heart of this podcast. However... I'm going to make sure we talk about Taylor Swift in some capacity.

capacity today. Never a doubt. Don't worry. That's why HR doesn't include me in whatever little shindig you're doing here in Los Angeles. I know. You should be invited.

I'm actually kind of mad that you're not somewhere between invited and forced to attend this. I am neither mad. But there is other music that exists other than Taylor Swift. And that is what we are going to spend today and a little bit of time

over the next few weeks. Although bear with us on the schedule because we also want to spend a little bit of time, both previewing and reacting to the Grammy nominations that are going to come out the first week of November. But other than that, we are carving out a little bit of time in the next few weeks to talk about some music that we've been excited about or interested in that we kind of missed or didn't have a chance to download on when we were fully immersing ourselves. Allowing Taylor Swift to take all the oxygen out of the room. which is, of course, again, one of our favorite pastimes. And today, we decided that we wanted to start by talking a little bit about Olivia Dean

and particularly her sophomore album, The Art of Loving, which came out a few weeks ago. But of course, there were a few things that happened over the weekend that we wanted to touch down on ever so briefly before we get to that. And the first, I have to ask, because you said last week, you were predicting, or not predicting, but at least just like putting out a feeler into the universe is what I thought that you were doing about Taylor, maybe just maybe popping up to do a new Domingo sketch on Saturday Night Live with Sabrina Carpenter. And so I have to ask you where you were, was it live and how you felt when they come out with the cold open

and it is a new Domingo sketch with Sabrina Carpenter that starts with the fate of Ophelia. And she only chose to bring her burn the phone One night with Domingo. Pretty close. I manifested part of the way there.

Did you think, did you watch live? I watched live. I did. So when they start doing it, Was there a part? Because I did not watch live. And even though I was watching, you know, on YouTube the next day, there was still somehow, and I'm sure that if Taylor Swift had been there, I would have known about it by then. But there was still some little part of me that was like, no. She's not, no. It can't. So were you totally doing that?

No, I wasn't. I felt like I had enough little birdies in the room that that would have been impossible to get past the goalie. But I was happy because it at least was a, it was close enough to what we were talking about. I thought Sabrina was, I thought she held her own. Oh, she's fabulous. Tough gig double hosting is not easy at all. And I thought the performances were great and fun.

I'm really glad she didn't do tears, not because I'm like a tears hater, but because Nobody's son was pretty fun. I loved. I liked both, but I loved nobody's son. And particularly because I just love the kind of opportunities for the handclaps in that, I thought the chopping the wood blocks was really great. Yeah, kicking the guys in the stomach.

But also, like, the way that they shot both performances, including Manchild, like it was much more of a moving camera animated 3D set than the usual, you're just looking at a band in front of a background. Like, they took some risks, and I don't think that was an easy thing, I imagine, for the SNL crew to get their head around. So I thought it was great. She definitely, I mean, somebody give that girl a rom-com. Yeah.

Yeah, that's really good. Hey, if anybody does that, cut Nathan in. Give the man some. She is child star, parentheses, complains. like she is the Disney kid who is just on her marks and can do all of the different things and can kind of be a triple threat in that way and is just an absolute dream person to do that gig in the same way that yeah she could she could I would at least want to see if she could carry a romantic comedy I don't know I don't know that she ever wants to do SNL double duty again but it sure

feels like they have now entrenched her as a part of the family and a part of the institution. Like, I don't know, you know, the next time, who knows when she's going to put out her next album, but let's just say the next cycle that she goes through may or may not be, you know, post-Lorn's reign there at SNL. So it may be that the whole thing becomes a different entity eventually somebody puts their palm print on it. But she would be the kind of person who would be wearing the five-timers jacket and be in the club. Yeah. Yeah, and you felt that with the way the Chew's referencing the 50th special and the Paul

Simon duet and also has a particular rapport with Bowen and they did the grind song sketched. The grind. Yeah, that was funny. I always love when SNL sketches are just really, oddball. So like the girl boss thing where she's just where they have like the rag doll that's getting thrown through the window.

Except not because they did none of them are athletic enough to throw it through the witch. Yeah. And she and what she's saying it's like progressively weirder and she keeps saying that she has her period or somebody has their period and everybody and half the people involved are like on the precipice of breaking. Right. I thought that was... It's the perfect 1247

1252 people. M sketch. Totally. But often the host isn't in that sketch because I feel like because often the host is like, you guys, you do that, but I don't leave me out of it. And I give her credit for her not doing that.

Right. They missed an opportunity to have Jane do a redux of the, why doesn't anybody think Sabrina Carpenter is gay? I know. It's my one big note. I don't know why they missed that. It's my one big note. It would have,

I would have been the greatest thing. I would have been so happy. But as you said, she's a part of the DNA of the show. She will be back and maybe they'll have a chance. While that was happening on the other coast in Los Angeles, Charlie XX was coming out with Lord at the forum to seeing Girl So Confusing. And I don't know that that's anything.

Like if you haven't seen it, you should go see it. It's super cool. Lord writes Girl on her hand and the camera zoom. in on it and then the camera's like focusing on their jewelry and parts of their torsos. And then all of a sudden, as Charlie starts to sing, the camera pulls back and it's Charlie and she walks through the crowd on and on. And there's been weird crowd stuff lately. Like there was the woman who pulled at Billy Elish and then got tackled and or the guy who pulled up at Billy Elish and then got tackled. And like, so there's been a little bit of danger in

through the crowds lately. But anyway, I guess this was the part where I wanted to talk about Taylor, because we've had a lot of these fashion shows where Gabriette and Maddie Healy are showing up. We've seen a lot of Charlie now. She's got the movie coming. She's definitely out in public. Like, I sort of wondered if post-actually romantic, if there would be some battle lines drawn. But I'm kind of surprised at the way in which Charlie is still controlling and commanding some younger culture. Am I like overthinking all of this? It's highly likely. It's our job to overthink this.

So I support you in that endeavor. Why is it surprising to you? Because you think that you're surprised that there aren't more spaces that haven't sort of drawn a line. that puts Charlie on the other side of it out of deference to Taylor? Maybe, I don't know. I mean, here's Lord, a close friend of Taylor's, apparently. It's not that she's picking sides, and I think part of the point of the original sympathy as a knife is that you shouldn't have to pick, right? It wasn't a side-picking thing.

It was a, how do we compare each other? And that was the girl-so-confusing point, too, which is what makes the two of them coming together and then hugging on stage super cool. But I just, you know, there aren't many people, let's put it in another way. There aren't that many people who've kind of gone head to head with Taylor who have ended up on the right side of it. And on this one, it doesn't feel like it, it doesn't feel like it even inflicted a flesh wound on Charlie. Yeah.

Like it almost feels like the song was the proverbial Chihuahua, tiny chihuahua barking at Charlie in a purse. Like a toy chihuahua barking at me from a tiny purse, that's how much it hurts. Which is probably how it, that's my favorite way for something like this to end, which is like everybody said their piece, and now we're moving on and it's fine.

But Charlie has been very present and visible and it doesn't seem to have affected her. It's not, and by the way, some of that may be to the credit of the Taylor fan base in that there are parts of the fan base who can get a little extreme and feel like they need to mount up. And it's why she cautioned them around the Dear John Speak Now release. It's why she, right?

She knows that power. And maybe the fan base has listened to some of the things that we heard from, but daddy I love him and elsewhere. The parts of the fan base that have tended to ride very aggressively for Taylor just didn't seem to pick up the sword. That's all. Yeah, I mean, I looked at some of her comment sections, and there was a lot, there were a lot of Taylor Swift fans saying, I guess, objectively negative things in Charlie X, X, X's direction. I do think part of it is like, oh, you're going to tell Charlie XTX that she does cocaine?

You're going to mount up with your big sword and tell Charlie that she does dry. sometimes. Like, it's just not, it's nothing that she hasn't told us herself. No, but it was about more than that. I mean, I think reading between the lines, there's been some stuff behind the scenes and, you know, I don't think it was just in response to the song.

All I, this is pure speculation as far as I'm concerned, but there was at least chatter going around as a part of that, that Lord might have been who Taylor would have heard. what Charlie was saying about her, you know, quote unquote, behind her back. Yeah. From. Now, I have no idea if that's true. I mean, obviously, she's someone who has a relationship with both people,

but I have to imagine that there are many people who fit that category. Anyway, let me pause at something to you. Okay. Where do you... And I want to know what you think of this, obviously, because of, for a number of reasons, especially because of your kids, where do you think Taylor is with the 20-year-olds? Yeah, that's a different question.

I don't think she's great. I think younger, locked down. I think older, locked down. And Taylor Swift is popular in every single demographic, you know. But relatively speaking, the age group of people who tend in culture to define what's cool, I think it's probably one of her weakest brackets. She's getting a little bit of the cold play treatment

from that group right now. Yeah. Yeah. Which is... She's a little chubby. It's not cool because it's so big. Yeah. And that's... And you two got that treatment before cold play.

And Paul McCartney solo act got that treatment before you two. Like, it just seems to be a thing that happens in culture when somebody gets big. Look, every generation is looking for their own. And I do think that Taylor, in both subject matter and reality on this album, is 15 years removed from 20-year-olds. Yes. And so, yeah, it's a little bit different than what is being spoken to by Gracie, by Chapel, by, you know, to a certain extent, Charlie. And I think...

Which is interesting because Charlie is older herself. but is, I think, more credible with that group right now. And part of that is because of the cosigns of Lord, Rachel Senate. Well, right, Olivia Dean. One of the things that we're going to have to keep watching now after this incredible record that she set with over 4 million units breaking the first week all-time high. I'm now watching what's happening to streaming from here.

Because now that we're getting the promo stuff out of our system, and I don't know, maybe she's going to go and call her daddy. That's what the Taylor Nation tweet suggested. But she definitely is not stepping forward to Chiefs game still. She's still hiding out in the background with dad. But I'm watching what's happening to her streams. And there, as you would expect from the first week, they're starting to decline in kind of a meaningful way,

and they're still crushing. Don't get me wrong, she's dominating the Billboard Hot 100. But whereas, like, you know, whereas like last week Ophelia would have been over 12 million streams a day, it's now dropped to like 9.5 million streams. And some of the rest of the album, which was in the, you know,

pretty high. I mean, Elizabeth Taylor's down south of four million, right? Father figure, three and a half million streams a day. Like, ruin the friendship. Elizabeth Taylor, not dropping off if I have anything to do with it. Eldest daughter at 2.4 million. And that's off of significant highs. And so does that mean that this thing is losing steam? No, that's what happens when a record comes out. But I think tracking what it's doing on a daily basis, what it's doing on a weekly basis, how it's performing around Christmas time is going to be the interesting thing. And by the way, that's part of why I think, you know, releasing the documentary around Christmas will, around her birthday will give it some additional legs as people keep paying

attention. But it makes, it doesn't make a mockery of the record because the record is incredible. And that one, as I've said, above all else belongs to the fans. I mean, it's just an incredible testament to a fan base and the support that they have for the artist. But how people really feel is reflected in ongoing streams. And so that's just a number to watch as we as we go ahead. It's streaming twice as much as Olivia Dean is right now. But oh my gosh, Olivia Dean is streaming half as much as the Taylor record. That's closer than you would have thought. Yeah. And that is part of why we are going to spend some time talking about her almost right now, except there's one more late night television related thing that I want to ask you about,

which is did you see Audrey Hobert on Jimmy Fallon? I'm so glad that you asked me this. I mean, what did you take from it? Just tell me what you took from. I just, I mean, I know I said that was like what I took from the album, which by the way. Like, I think you perceived me as a little bit lukewarm on that album. And in some ways, like, in some ways I think there are elements of it where I am, that statement is not backed up by how much I continue to listen to it. Like, I am still listening to that album all the time.

Can I tell you what I think she did on Fallon? Tell me. I think that she did like a Napoleon Dynamite Part 2 sketch. Okay, say more. Do you know, I mean, you know the penultimate scene in Napoleon Donovan, like, when he comes out and just does this, the dance thing and everybody's, like, blown away. Like, it started with the comedy of she gets introduced and she's just looking at her phone and then she, like, figures it out. Then there's nothing up there. There's just some color lights. But hold on, hold on, hold on.

The phone thing was really funny. It just really made me laugh. Yes. If anybody hasn't seen it, go look it up, but it's like, Jimmy Fallon's like, oh, Audrey Hobart, and then it cuts to her, and she's, like, looking at her phone, like, she doesn't know it's supposed to start, and then she looks up, and she just, her timing is great, her expression is great, the whole thing is great. Right. And then, like, her body, she's tall, and so she's doing these, like, long cheerleader kind of like, whoa, Napoleon Dynamite

kind of moves. There's nothing behind her, just a curtain and some colored lights. So you don't even know, like, is there a band here? Is there not? She strikes these, like, faux, poses in front of the wind machines and shit. It's so great. It's really, really good. No, she's just a real hoot. And it's like the leaning into the awkwardness is just is really perfect. Exactly. I get the Napoleon Dynamite thing now. It also, car dealership blow-up man is a little bit of her movement style. For sure. Good stuff. Love it. Good stuff. Continue to enjoy, Audrey. There is no one else in that lane, but you're exactly right.

My Spotify Rapped is going to have a lot of Audrey in it this year. Yeah, no, totally. Okay. Shall we? Turn the page and dive into the world of Olivia Dean? Yes. So, The Art of Loving, which came out a few weeks ago, this is a sophomore album that we're talking about. But I think fair to say her, at least,

in the U.S. breakout album. So little backstory on Olivia Dean, if anybody needs it. She is from London. She has a sort of classic, you know, theater kid who ends up going to the Brit school and then switches from focusing on theater to songwriting, starts putting songs out on YouTube,

ends up getting attention from a record label and gets a deal, starts putting out a few EPs in 2019 through like 2022 and just starts getting a lot of buzz, particularly in the UK. And then in 2023, she had an album called Messi that came out that did pretty well, I think, sort of across the board, but particularly in the UK. So I think across the pond, Olivia Dean has been established. in a way that makes what's happened over the last year or so, and then with Man I Need and with this record,

it's a little bit different because they think that this has been a more substantial breakout here. All fair to say? Yes. I think the practical application of that is she is opening for Sabrina Carpenter for six nights at, or five nights, at Madison Square Garden at the end of this month. She has sold out

headlining four shows at the O2 in London, which is the London-Madison Square Garden equivalent at the end of April beginning of May. And she played Glastonbury last year. So there is, like, I have this tendency,

I think, and I'm sure I will, as we talk about this, to analyze her as someone who's kind of right at her breakout moment. And I just want to acknowledge that if we were doing this podcast in London,

that would sound really strange. And I think there are some interesting things to talk about in terms of, you know, most things in our world are pretty borderless and international

in terms of how people's tastes are. But there are things that the UK tends to get into and not quite the same way that the U.S. does.

And I think some of those are at play with what she is doing and what she might end up doing. But one of the- Can we jump to it? You want to jump to it? You want to jump to it? You want to jump to a question for you. Okay, please. I mean, I need to say this in the most respectful way possible.

But in my head right now, she's not Olivia Dean. She's Olivia Dell. because I feel from this record and I feel from the overall vibe, and I think rightly so, as we will walk through some of the songs, that she is a 26-year-old that is filling the lane that now, you know,

mid-to-late 30-year-old Adele hasn't abdicated, but that by showing, showing up every five years and disappearing leaves a spot for this kind of music. I hear Nora Jones in Olivia Dean. I hear Amy Winehouse in Olivia Dean. It is, she has a magnificent voice. Am I over rotating on Olivia Dell? Well, what's the implication of Olivia Dell? Is it that is that a concern about how she carves her own lane going forward because it feels derivative? Yes. It's that maybe every generation needs an Adele or a part of an Amy Winehouse.

And that this is a incredible talent that has a record that, in my opinion, has one of the best songs of the year on it. and the rest of it feels like an adequate showcase for her talent and her voice, but that it doesn't make you walk away and think she is a singular talent in terms of the musical composition part of it just yet. Did you get into messy at all the first album? A little bit. So I... Tangentially aware?

Yeah, same. And then I went back more as we were doing this. And it's an interesting comparison because it's a more... This is a broader album than that, which I think foregrounds the questions about how she distinguishes herself more so than Messi did.

And she is... You know, she's not... Out here completely on her own in terms of a... kind of a British neo-soul thing. having, which does, is a sound that kind of every X number of years seems to pop up. You know, it's beautiful, it's listenable. It's, it deals in a lot of universality.

So in some ways, that's not surprising. But, you know, you could talk about Ray. You could even talk a little bit about lowly young. Like there are a few artists who don't necessarily play in the exact same sandbox, but play in adjacent sandboxes who have had moments lately. And so I think that she is probably part of that. And I think the question with a lot of music like that, because it is very referential of these like retro styles.

And it is very much in the lineage, like not just in a lineage in terms of are people going to say that this is derivative or referential? It's in a lineage of like titans, right? Because if you're being compared to Amy Winehouse and Adele, Correct. Yikes. Like that's a... You should listen to this album audience. You should listen to this album. It is worth it. You should know her voice.

And she is, speaking of hosting Saturday Night Live, she is one of the ones who is next. And she may well make a big leap from the UK to the US. I think the only question for me is the tailwind that's behind this artist. Because she has this incredible, voice and it's mostly about the vibes? Or is the tailwind behind this artist that she's going to nail

a hello or when we were young? Or is she going to have a distinguished song that is uniquely hers? And there are moments on this record, by the way, where you're like, who is that? Yeah. Yeah. I don't want to, I really, I like the album quite a bit. And I think she is also just really charming.

And I think there are some interesting things. Incredibly charming. That are specific to right now that actually maybe circumvent some of these problems. So I don't want to just come out of the gate like troubleshooting. I do think that there is, it is, but I'm glad that you're identifying what you're identifying. That's why I said, can I cut to it? Because it's, it's totally what was on my mind when I was listening to this. Because I think it's a, I think it's a real challenge because I,

you know, she has an amazing voice. But she's not Adele. She is not vocally Adele. Because no one is vocally Adele. Yeah. And then Amy, like, and she's also not Amy Winehouse. No, she's sweeter than Amy. She's less dangerous.

She's a lot less dangerous. So then the question is who is she? Right. And I don't... She fits Elaine right now because Adele's on the shelf. that slats very easily into Sabrina Carpenter, Taylor Swift, Charlie, Chapel, like Gracie. This is something different than that.

It's just that it is a lane. If she's the only one who has anything nice to say about men. That's the lane. That might be the lane. But it's not controversial. It's easy. It's so easy to fall in love, as the title of one of her song says. But like the last song on the album, there are a number of times where I feel like I've seen it.

I've seen it growl and forget until it's just a silhouette till someone picks it up and sends it on. Yeah. No, and it's a type of, it's a musical. I'm not saying that I think she does this. I do not. It's a type of music. that can become Cole's commercial soundtrack

really easily if you're not careful. And again, I don't think she has that problem. But when you listen top to bottom and think about in particular, like where does this person go next,

that's what's going through my head. That's a hard thing to figure out. Right. At least in the, conversation of, you know, when we're talking about the names that we're bringing up here. Like, I think the flip side of that is that there is always a space for this. Well, that's, but that's what I'm asking. Because she's got all the goods.

And if this is the street corner that she occupies, she's going to have a great career. And there's going to be people who love her. And man I need is definitely one of my top 10 songs of the year. It just is. It's great. And, you know, Hello, Tobias Jesso Jr. Yeah.

Who wrote when we were young on Adele's 25. So it's great. And... But I think if... Consider everything that we've said over the last 10 minutes or whatever as headlined by the question, can Olivia Dean be great?

Yes. It's not, is this worth your time? Is this good music? It's, can this person... Right. be the next one who's really like that. Yeah, that's the tantalizing question. That's why I just said, can we cut to it?

Because I think with this record, people are going to listen to it, and you're going to find some stuff that you like. It goes on easy. It goes down. There's never any moment where you're like, oh, shit, I got to fast forward through this because my mom's not going to like this. Or, ooh, is this bad for my kids? Like, no, it is, it's easy.

And you walk away, going, this is someone who has a ton of talent, an enormous amount of talent. Is she a world-class artist? Is what we're going to find out as she comes to SNL and starts trying to conquer America? It's going to be really interesting. So, man I need, which is definitely the biggest hit, is the song that I think is the reason that we're asking all of these questions. Yeah. And it was the third single put out before the album was released.

It pretty quickly got a ton of traction on TikTok. Yeah. And it's become certainly here, but it's become her biggest song. And I think it's pretty safe to say that that's going to endure from this album. What is it about Man I Need that makes it that song for you? it's all of it it's melodically it's the earworm that i wanted from some of the taylor swift stuff for example it's got some like reminiscent keyboards from bonnie rates nick of time so there's some sort of cross-generational stuff it still feels classic with the backup singers it has an easily accessible rhythm to i just

it it is it's that song that you're hear the first time and you go, who is this? And you turn it up and you replay it six times until it starts to burn a hole in your phone. But even when it starts to burn a hole in your phone, it's like, it's the type of song that you should get sick of, right? But you don't. You're scrolling through TikTok and it's the schmaltziest sections of the song are being put over, you know, I understand that this is my internet, but it's like they're being put over, you know, the Nancy Myers aesthetic and it's a carousel

of different people's kitchens like it's just a lot of that and yet you can't you can't be mad at it because I think it's to me it's the melody it's the first thing that you called out

it's just so it just gets into you and I think there are other really good songs in this album but I absolutely think that this was this was the one I'm sure they knew it everybody else clearly knows it

and it does start with the melody for me It also, and I say this with love, it also is the kind of soul-influent song that white people can cross the Rio Grande and touch. I say that. I echo that with like a mixture of love and slight contempt for my own people. And so it is accessible in that way where like white people can hear this and be like, yeah, I get this. Well, so, I mean, do you think that...

It is very funny to think of this song. What a groove! In the context. Ew, what a groove. But also, like, content-wise, to think of it in the context of man-child. If I'm not there I choose. Right. Right.

Or Chapel Rhone, you know, calling out dates with guys who don't ask you a question and where a fugly is. Kne-deep in the passenger seat. Deep in the passenger seat the Audrey Hobart record Right like the Port fucking your ex is iconic Well and the guy with the with

Who doesn't have a headboard And doesn't share the hot pocket Like the general picture Of heterosexual romance Being portrayed by Our current crop of pop stars Is pretty fucking bleak

Yeah. Yeah. And I genuinely wonder if there is something to Olivia Dean coming along in that environment. Making music that's safe for churches and schools. Oh, but also is like it's kind of, and I actually think that if you listen to this album as a whole, it's very thoughtful. It is this, it's based on it's the inspiration coming. from an art installation inspired by Bell Hooks. So, like, this is someone who...

She knows her feminist theory. There's a lot of different kind of meditations on the art of loving that come through in a bunch of different ways on all of these songs. But this song, this big song... Big-ass song. ...is about everything that you would want

from a male partner from the traditional perspective as a woman. And, yeah, I wonder if it hits people as a little bit of like, God, I don't even know if that's real, but like, I want to believe it is. And so this feels nice to listen to kind of thing. Sure. Sure. It's all highly accessible.

Yeah. But it's not the same kind of accessible as the Bruno Mars Lady Gaga song. Totally. No, I wrote the exact same thing down to is like it is coming at this time when there's a lot of music that is exceptionally popular

and exceptionally boring in a very adult contemporary way. And I guess I have to feel like there might be something, there might be at least a correlation between the impulses leading people to hyper-consume that music and hyper-consume this music,

I much prefer this. Yeah. Like, much, much prefer this. Yeah, and I think as you go outside of, man, I need, it does feel across the album, like she's still trying some things. I mean, there's a little bit of consistency

in the producers, but there's a song with John Ryan and Julian Benetta of One Direction fame. There's a song with Amy Allen. Who would do that to a friend, let alone the one you love. You know, participating. So she's got some of the usual suspects. And I think it's totally fine to work with the usual suspects.

but if you don't have a super clear vision and point of view on exactly what is the music you're trying to make, it can sound like the usual suspects album instead of here's Olivia Dean powered by the usual suspects. Yeah. Well, and so there's this crew of people who all worked on Messi, Bashian Longbach, Matt Wolfgang, Matt Hales, who are all, in the credits on most of these songs. And so it seems like there was the crew from the first album, and that went well. And, you know, they probably like working together and everybody stuck around.

And then for this one, there were a few heavy hitters who were brought into the mix, I think, to see, okay, what happens if we have Julian Panetta and John Ryan get to work on an Olivia Dean song? what happens if we take Tobias Jesso Jr. and say, hey, can you do that for her or two? And for the most part, I think that that works. Like, I gave most important collaborator to Tobias Jesso Jr. because I think, I gave it to Adel. You gave it to Adele. I mean, but in some ways, aren't, isn't that saying the same thing, right?

Yes. because he came in to work on man I need. I think that song accomplishes what this album needed to accomplish sort of on its own. Yes. The rest doesn't actually matter. That's how good that song is.

And it is in that it's in that melody where, you know, I don't know who came. Maybe they all did it. Maybe it was her. Maybe it was somebody. Yeah. But when you take the Adele guy,

and then you do that, it feels, it doesn't feel like a coincidence. Right. And look, there are more Adele moments on this album. Loud.

You want to name a few? Sure. Loud. I mean, for a split second, to start a loud, sounds like Cry Me River, the Timberlake song,

the nylon string guitar, but by the middle of it, it sounds a lot like million years ago. And by the way, wow, her voice on that song, There is a great TikTok that she posted. It's a one take that she did with the strings in the room.

They used the vocal. It's sick. I mean, it's like, that's a really interesting song. But holy moly, baby steps, which follows loud, is water under the bridge. And it's not, I mean, all of to the little guitar licks, all of it is there. I mean, did you hear it elsewhere? I mean, close up feels like, close up, which is the fourth song, I guess really third song after the intro,

which I do want to talk about your little transition and how you feel about that. But like, that's where you're like, this is the child of Adele and Amy Winehouse and Nora Jones altogether. But again, that song feels like it's skyfall mixed with the slowed down Valerie. You make reality feel so bizarre just because of the person you are. Yeah, loud in Like loud

Yeah, loud in that song Um Loud in particular, like the singing to me is just gorgeous. Sometimes I find in that song that the strings get like a little sticky To me, that's one of the moments where not in her delivery, but just in the production,

it carries over that line just slightly into schmaltzy cheesy, but the vocal totally saves it and more than that, because I think you're singing is just gorgeous on that song. Is there anything other than man I need, I'm sure there is, that you particularly like,

that jumps out at you? Baby steps from a streaming perspective seems to be doing very, very well for its position on the album. Yeah. But I think I really like Baby Steps because I really love Water Under the Bridge. Can I tell you something that that confuses me about that song, which I do like. It's not one of my, it's not top third for me, although I agree with you.

It seems to have some traction. There's the moment when she's talking about wanting someone to text. when your plane lands. Yeah. Then she says to call when it's taking off. Yeah. That's bad plane etiquette. Very bad plane etiquette.

But plane etiquette is out the door. The goofiest rule that we have in the world is the airplane mode situation. Why is that even a feature anymore? Nobody respects it. People are always talking to people right on takeoff. This is actually a point of tension in my relationship, I do respect it.

Okay. I do respect it and I understand that it probably doesn't make a difference, but when we're going in the tin can in the sky, we're actually going to follow the rules. That's how I feel. That's, I think you can tell a lot about how people feel about flying based on how they

act actually on the plane. You can also tell a lot about people's fucking social capacity, by the way, they act in airports. Good Lord, are we just falling apart as a society right now? back to the smooth easy listening. But even if you're not on airplane mode, nobody, like, and don't get me wrong, I do the thing where I hit the airplane mode button,

like, right when you hear the engines start to rev up, and I'm probably, like, frantically trying to download Netflix right up until that moment off of hot spotting my phone. The idea of, like, in that moment, calling your partner and being like, hey, babe, just wanted to let you know, planes, plane's about to take off, love you. That's weird. Like, I see people do weird things on airplanes all the time.

And nobody does that. Like, do you know that, you know that this is such an old reference. But there's that movie say anything, which people definitely know because it's John Cusack holding the boom box over his head. But like, there's, the final scene is like where he's, he's with her. She's a super nervous flyer. And he's just like, you're waiting for that ding when you're at 10,000 feet that tells you that everything's okay.

And I think everybody lives with that, the scariest part is takeover because of that loud, just monstrous growl of the engines. And then you get up at some point, there are a lot of people who need to be talked through that takeoff. And the turbulence of the plane lurching back and forth as it goes up and makes the turns to get into the right exit pathway and then, you know, onto the right flight plan, that's the scariest part for a lot of people. So I think there are people who secretly call their partners not to be like, hey, babe, what's going on? But to be like, shit, is it going to be okay? Is it going to be okay? Okay. I don't feel like I see people doing that a lot.

No, no. You don't see people praying as hard as they are, but people are praying their ass off on planes. They're doing it. They're doing it sort of on the deal. Okay. I'm fine with that. I'm not upset by it. I text my kids right when we start rolling every time just so that, like, they'll be the last ones who.

I send a text. I talk to. I send a text. I just like, again, I'm sending it like right when I start to hear the engine rev. So there's not really time. It's not really time to make a phone call. Well, Olivia Dean wants to call somebody and be talked through the takeoff. And Olivia, Olivia, go absolutely go with God.

I support you. But it just, it was a question that I had and I'm voicing it here. There is another song on this album that I really like. And it's called Let Alone the One You Love. That's another one of my favorites too. The problem, again, and again, this is just about is this really good person who is a really good, talented artist, does she have everything to be great?

Let alone the one you love is basically the sixth-ish song on the album, seventh song, sorry, fifth song on the album. It's Purple Rain. I don't want to be some kind of friend. Really thought you could be in. Thought I was safe. It's like embarrassingly purple rain to the point where I think it's intentionally Purple Rain and I'd be surprised if the Princess State wasn't like,

yo. Yo, that's Purple Rain. So I just, it's in this position on this album where it's like, yeah, Taylor's taught us about the meaning of a track five. And it's right before, man I need. And it's beautiful. But it just is that. And I am, I'm sort of at a loss for, I mean, I know why it gets on there because stuff gets recycled all the time. We talk about it here.

And not necessarily intentionally so. It's because these things live in your brain and you're affected by the. them and you get drawn to the chord progressions and the melodies that layer over them. And so they just come out and you think, oh, I'm creating something new, but you know, you've been impacted before. Particularly when you are trying to make music that kind of sounds like it belongs in a different era or at least ties back to one. Right.

Is there anything that you would cut? Well, where are you? Is there any song that you are into that we didn't? Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, other that, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I totally agree with you. Let alone the one you love is great. How do you feel about nice to each other? I like it. I don't like it quite as much.

Got a lot of Flewwood Mac dreams in it. I tend to, I think, so I actually think that I've realized that if I, if I were to name you my three favorite Olivia Dean songs, I think number one with a bullet is man I need. Right. And then I gotta be honest. It's stuff from the first record. Two and three are going to be from the first record.

Like dive in ladies' room. Okay. Are probably both more special to me than any of the other art of loving songs. But the art of loving songs that I gravitate to, I think are the ones. where I kind of give, I give myself in to the idea that this is just, this is a,

this is an oversized cashmere rap on a fall day of an album. And it is a little bit schmaltzy, but if I just kind of accept that, like I do love so easy to fall in love. I do, and I think let alone the one you love, like those songs are some of the,

it's, it's not just a, about a melody, but it's centrally about a melody. It is centrally about that kind of warm and cozy feeling. And that is what works the best for me overall. And that is why you want to cut lady lady, because the conga's in the beginning with the smooth jazz. You're right.

That was astute. Girl, you're in L.A. We're too close. We're right in the in the zone. I mean, this was a, Lady Lady was a single. I know. And I'm really surprised that it was. It's like a cool song in a lot of ways.

To me, it is the, it is, it's just not a melody that I find that captive. Yeah. Yeah, I think the album gets stronger as it goes. Okay. Like I think that's so easy to fall in love, let alone the one you love, man I need. something in between I like it it there is some bonny rate in there something in between actually i really like that actually would be up there for me too yeah there's some real bonnie rate like go back and listen to look at the draw the album nicotime the

album there's a lot of her um phrasing that's in there and and i think loud is a moment for sure even if even if the strings get schmaltzy and then you get water on the bridge slash baby steps a couple minutes that feels like did you see when Obama went on fallon and that he would do the like slow jam that's just a slow jam as president I'm proud of the many progressive steps our country has taken in recent years both socially and environmentally So that's one that I could probably do a little bit without. And then you get to, I've seen it. And I made this sort of joke, but I'm serious. Like there's a part of that song that is just eerily reminiscent of lots of things that you've heard before from a,

feels like a really great Nora Jones shoot the moon impression on vocal or something. But I know it's a song about love and it's optimistic and it's easy. brings out the worst brings out the best i understand it less and less i guess i'm not supposed to know it all so i wouldn't kill that one but to me i think it is i think it's lady lady i like i've seen it um actually think that that's a really good melody too and it's sort of it's a little bit more coffee house almost than the rest of the album it's less instrumental um but she's got such an incredible voice that it's nice to just hear it in a different way and she carries it. That also has my favorite lyric, which is when she's talking about the books that she likes to read and she says

my mom and dad, they got me hooked. I've seen the films. I've read the books. My mom and dad, they got me hooked. The fairy tale. The search goes on and on. I thought that was very clever as a nod to the inspiration of the album and it's just like it's subtle and at school. So I don't think this is an album that's like centrally about lyrics really. No, it's not. It's about melodies and vibes. But that that one charmed me. There's one more that I really like that I'll save till the end. But yeah, no, it's, um, lady lady, I just, I feel like I want to like it a lot more than I do. And then of course, you also correctly identified that the intro just does absolutely nothing for me. And I don't understand. I don't understand. I don't either. I don't understand. I don't

I don't understand. That's one. I enjoy some of the transitions that happen in the Miley record, some of the other transitions in other pop albums we've looked at. But it's like at least the Miley record. And don't get me wrong, you know, I've said my piece on this. But like, it's not as though this is an avant-garde concept album. Like, this is a very straightforward collection of music.

It doesn't need an introduction. It doesn't need scaffolding of like, this is what I'm trying to talk about. I just don't get it. Well, she believed it did. And so now you have it. Okay. And you know what? It helps me have something for this category.

Well, the categories are a little bit hard on this one because there are no real notable Easter egg or conspiracy corners. I mean, the... Although, you know what? Remember when she went out to dinner with Harry Styles? Oh, no. It's not, no, no, no, no, no. Hoey is going out to dinner with James Corden, and like, none of this is real.

But it just, I think last year or something, she went out to dinner with Harry Stiles, which I'm sure is a very normal thing to do for two young Brits in the music industry. But of course, there were many, many rumors and photographs and suggestions that came out of that. can I say that the most interesting thing to me in thinking about like male pop is that coming out of this moment male pop is in like pop by men or pop about men? Pop by men. Okay. I figured, but just because we'd sort of be talking about it. I mean, really what I'm saying is there's been this vacuum since Harry's stopped the love on tour that has been filled admirably by.

cornucopios of women who have stepped into all these different lanes that we've talked about on this podcast. And I just think not one man has stepped in and grabbed it by the throat. And so we're going to get a Harry Stiles record pretty soon. And it's a big-ass missed opportunity for the rest of the industry because like while Taylor takes these little two-minute breaks up sprout all these really interesting green shoots that matter and that are building momentum and career, Harry goes and starts running marathons, probably just to compete with Taylor, because Taylor's running a marathon out there for three hours and 45 minutes. He's like, shit, I better get in shape.

But nobody really has stepped in to take the crown. His time is really good. But nobody's really stepped in to take the crown. I know. That's fascinating. Like, it just, I don't know if there was lack of ambition. I don't know if it's that men are making different music, right? If there's more of the, like, McGee fucking...

I don't know. BTS didn't really do it in the solo projects. Obviously, they've been otherwise occupied. Oh, so... I'm sorry. That was... I don't mean to use Charlie Puth as a punchline. No, exactly, exactly.

But, like, yeah, Charlie Puth is the one... is standing up telling people to stop talking about how songs talk about, you know, sound like other songs. Whatever, man. Like, we just, you know, we got some level of Benson Boone role model Conan Gray that just get, you know, there's audiences for those artists and they're fine. But they get to maybe the second stage of orbit and then the rocket engine fizzles out. And, you know, will there be more?

Maybe I'd love to be surprised by one of those guys. But I don't think. Yeah. Role model is the interesting one to me. because Ben's and Boone, I'm just not into it. And to me, that's... I'm just not sure it's there with Role Mall. Noah Khan maybe stepped in a little bit, but not really.

Like, maybe it's Zach Bryan and Morgan Wallen have picked up the mantra. That's just what the kind of music the dudes are making right now. And no one is like, hey, I can iterate on what Harry Styles is doing. Anyway, it's there. Harry's coming. The world's going to start to, you know, shake. at some point here in the next, I don't know,

let's just say six-ish months, he's going to come back and take that throne. Wait, hold on. You think in the next six-ish months there will be a single, an announcement, a full album? I don't know. You're going to have new Harry Styles music

in the next six months, I think. Which would indicate either a, Song or the album. Yes. Okay. Nathan, Nathan predicting. Harry's house came out in May. Fascinating.

I did see, I noted with interest that there was a, there was a story out about him going in and out of. I mean, there's a reason he's walking everywhere with wired headphones. Do you know why you walk with wired headphones? It's so nobody can hack into your shit because, like, really. People also, I know that you're right. I know it's also style. Yeah, some people also like them.

And he is kind of, I mean, he's like Sharon scarves with Zoe Kravitz right now. Like, that man is sartorially in his bag. Yep. Not that he has been for a long time, but I'm just saying I watch, I respect, I learn. I'm very happy for them. Well, the only conspiracy corner I have is whether like, whether Olivia Dean is, like, there's the industry plant thing, which I don't think is a real thing. But it's also, to me, it's just interesting.

Sabrina caught the wave off the Taylor Swift tour. Olivia's going to open up a bunch of these mini-residencies that Sabrina's about to start playing around the U.S. Can Olivia catch that wave? Yeah. What did you do for next album? Because I had trouble with this, just because it really depends to me on what she wants.

because as we talked about, there's, if she wants to do this, she can do this forever. Like... Right. It's like Michael Boubley. You can...

She's already got a Christmas song. Like, you could do a Christmas album and coast on it, man. She did a song for the Bridget Jones movie. Yeah, she did the Christmas song. Like, she, again, you can... You can just do this forever. She could be a bond girl.

She could sing the bond intro, just like Adele did, you know? But I, I think this is... Not yet. I don't think she could do that yet. I'm just saying she's got the voice to do it. She's got the voice to do it, but they...

I don't... I mean, she's bigger in the UK, so that's part of it. I don't think she quite has the stature for that. She doesn't have the stature for it. This is just a placeholder for me for this exact discussion. Is she going to be a quasi-classics artist? What are we going to do with this voice? This voice is incredible.

Yeah. And I got to believe that, you know, through this cycle as this song really breaks her out and she gets her chops playing arenas. And I, in all cases, life experiences shape the artist. And there is a little bit that I take from this record that is she's still trying to figure out the artist we need while she sings the man I need. But more importantly, the artist that she wants to be. I do wonder if, you know, if Amy Allen pops up with her credit, and I, it's not that I feel like you can necessarily, like, pick her writing style out from that. But it got me thinking about what that could be like if they continued to work together, just because in general, I think Amy Allen is really good at, like, weaving in, kind of.

of personality and specificity into songs that are broad, mainstream, pop fluent songs. And I think there was a little bit more of that on messy. Like messy was messier. It was a messier, more idiosyncratic album

than this one. And I wonder if there is a way to synthesize the gloss of this record with a little bit more of that. Well, a longer relationship with Harry Styles would have certainly generated. Yeah, I mean, that's the other thing that she could do.

More rough edges. She could follow the Tate McCray playbook and have a high profile breakup. But she's currently dating Clero's drummer, which is really fun. That's great. I love that. Go do it. That's awesome. I will be interested to see what she does on SNL because my real answer here is like I don't

have an answer because it depends what she wants. I don't feel like this album contains the answer to the question like why are we going to listen to her do this versus someone else. I do think that she radiates a warmth that comes through in the songs, but particularly comes through when you watch her perform.

Right. And so I will be interested to watch what she does with some of those moments because maybe there's sort of a thesis of why Olivia Dean that Well, you watch that TikTok. Yeah, you watch that TikTok of her singing and loud in one take, and you're like, whoa. Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

It's jaw dropping. Yeah. No, totally. So that's it. That's it. I mean, I really, I really, and we'll talk about lyric. Lyrics, as you said, I think the album is warm, but it's not like a, it's not advancing the discussion of what is love. It's fine.

What is your best one? I liked from loud. A month ago you had me undercovers, butterflies in bed. No, I won't phone because we went straight to lovers so we can't even talk as friends. No, I won't phone because we went straight to lovers so we can't even talk as friends. I'd like that concept of just going, you know,

you skipped a step and now you can't go backwards. Yeah. I do that that song lyrically is a high point for me. Because I also love the, even when I was listening to it, because sometimes when I listen to albums for the pod, like I'll listen once just as I would turn on an album in my normal life. Like I don't really take notes.

I just sort of experience it. And then I go back and do kind of stream of consciousness notes. and then I go back and I listen for specific, like, questions that I'm trying to answer for myself. Like, what lyrics do I like? But even the first time that I was listening to this all the way through, even when I just started loud, the four hands at the piano line, Four hands at the piano, you sure know how to play. Yeah, I loved it. jumped out to me as a vignette that's like more vivid than,

that's particularly vivid. And then when she brings it around at the end and it's two hands at the piano, I wouldn't let you play. Yeah. Two hands at the piano. The one I let you play. Or the one I let you play. Yeah.

Which is to say there's one that she doesn't let somebody play. Maybe that's her like. Well, no, I thought it was to say that the person is gone. Yeah. It's like it's a way to illustrate the absence. It is. No, the two hands I thought you're right. But the one I let you play,

that's a very musician thing to have instruments that other people are allowed to touch. But it's extremely musician thing to have instruments that no one else is around to touch. Totally, because I didn't think that at all. I love that. I hadn't even considered that that she's saying that there's a separate piano

that he wasn't allowed to touch. No, because it's special and it's spiritual and you get songs out of instruments. And if somebody else touches them, it's like, you know, letting somebody date your partner. Yeah. It's like, we're not having a threesome here. This is a monogamous relationship with this instrument. That's kind of what I thought she was saying was like, I let you play with me at my special piano and now it's, you know, no. There you go.

But either way, I think it's a great, it's a great set of lines. in that song, that's probably the, if I had to choose a best written overall lyrically song, that's where I would go because I think there are some really good moments on that song.

Yeah. Shall we give it a grade? Yeah, what did you say? I said B. That's what I said. Yeah. It's not an album where there are a lot of things

that I think went wrong. Not at all. Like almost everything that's that's happening here, I like, I think she's supremely talented. I think it's a beautiful sounding record. There is an absence of something with the exception of man I need that like smacks you upside the head and forces you to take it really, really like seriously. That, I mean seriously, and like taking it seriously sense, but just that forces you to listen to it, which is where I think it falls short a little bit,

but it's the absence of something. It's not anything that I sort of dislike about what's actually happening. I used to walk into my grandfather's garage, and when he would be hard at work, there'd be all these tools on the floor. He's always fixing stuff, making things, fix it. And you'd walk in, and all the tools

were there for the job. And that's what it feels like. I feel like Olivia Dell is, all the tools are there to be Olivia Dean. And that she's just one you've got to watch because the voice is undeniable, the charm is undeniable. You'll see her on SNL.

You will instantly fall in love with her. She's right. It is very easy to do that. And now it is, It is really just a question of like what phase of orbit can a human being with all of these tools get to? Got to watch it. And we will do that. All right, this has been every single album.

I'm Nora Preciati. As always, he is Nathan Hubbard. Thank you to Kai McMullen for producing this episode. And to you for listening, we'll talk to you next week.