Every Single Album - 'The Life of a Showgirl' | Every Single Album: Taylor Swift

Episode Date: October 5, 2025

Lights, camera, showtime! It's time to talk about Taylor Swift's newest album: 'The Life of a Showgirl.' Nora and Nathan talk about their initial reactions to the record and why this is an album you should just have fun with (1:00), how Swift's reunion with Max Martin and Shellback worked out (31:33), how Swift continues to be powered by conflict on songs like "Father Figure" and "Actually Romantic" (1:07:41), and much, much more. Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Oh, and welcome to every single album, Taylor Swift. I'm Nora Prysciatti. As always, I am joined by Nathan Hubbard to discuss the life of a showgirl. Brand new Taylor Swift album. Poo, pooh, pooh, boo, bo, bo, bo, bo, bo, bo, pew. Even how you doing? It's Christmas morning for every single album. Lights, camera action.

We're ready to go. We've talked a little bit. We've chatted just, like, a little bit because for me, This was, and I actually feel great about it. This was the most, like, low-key-feeling Taylor Swift album release since we started doing this pod. I think part of that is because there's just so much less music that's part of this than obviously tortured poets, but also the re-recordings, particularly with The Vault. And then folklore and Evermore were pretty lengthy albums and same thing with the Midnight's 3am and yada, yada, yada.

for me personally, this is my first Taylor Swift album, not like deep on Twitter and just really into the internet of it all. And I have to say that it like washed over me with a really, with a lot of ease. How are you feeling, Nathan? I'm confused by what you just, meaning you did not experience the Twitter

like shit show that erupts around every time somebody puts out an album, you were out of, you were baking bread basically and not scrolling as Taylor would suggest. I mean, I saw like, I love the memes. I love the jokes. And I, I think I managed to see, uh, the best of the best. Yeah. But it just felt like, and I think some of that is because of choices that I made. And then some of that is because I think this is just a much less Easter eggy, be in the weeds, be, like, I think in some ways this is an album for the normies in all the ways that tortured poets was an album for the like deep deep swifties. And there is, there is something about that that I think has affected the way that I've consumed it over the last 36 hours or so.

What about you? Yeah. Well, we're going to talk more about who this album is actually for. I mean, the rollout weirdly took some of the air and excitement out of the balloon with these countdown clocks being about vinals. And that's, you don't. have to freak out. People get upset that she takes shit for this. And on the one hand, you're right, she gets an unusual amount of scrutiny. But like, too bad. Heavy is the crown. She has positioned herself as a voice and a leader of the artist community. So yes, it matters what she does. She sets the bar because she is the bar. So get over it. But like, it was a little bit anticlimactic when the the countdown clocks went to zero,

and it wasn't this, like, unlocking of the puzzles that we'd had before. Now, because of that, because of some of that early commercialism, I think it distracted from some of the really cool stuff she did at the end to see the detectives in the fan base, right? Lining up the album titles to make the ERAs tour stage is incredible, and that fuels my conspiracy theory. The lyrics in the reputation song titles, which, by the way. Yeah, yeah, song titles, not album titles, yes.

So out of pocket. She knew how hard people would clown on that one. Oh, my God. Like, the capitalized hidden lyrics on Spotify and Apple, et cetera. Like, the pop-up that showed the cracks that gave clues. Like, it felt like some of the reaction was subdued because the early stuff maybe didn't surprise and delight and empower the fan base to begin the quest, right?

And delight the non-vinyl heads. And I know that the vinyl's, like, delighted the vinyl heads because she was very particular about them and high quality and all that stuff. But I think you're right that it took a little bit of the air at that balloon. And then the media part of this is interesting. Like, hey, she's back doing media. Let's not forget that last time she did nothing. She was the media, right?

And yet the media things that she's done so far, there's still a standby on the schedule that's supposed to happen later tonight, which she knows going to be something fucking crazy. We're going to get cloned. We're going to get totally clung. But like there's this NBC through line for Seth and Jimmy Fallon, who she knows well. Graham Norton, she knows well. And then the radio shows those are basically just hype machines that sort of tree preps them all. And it's a very controlled environment.

It's like from that to like the Rolling Stone and Variety reviews that just read like North Korean media for sure. There was some agreement between them about what those reviews were. going to be. It just, and I don't even think it's a criticism, but I'm with you that, like, it was safe and it was a little bit subdued. Now, I was excited for this. Wait, what are you saying was subdued? Are you saying the way, the, like, public reaction to the album once it was out? No, I think the lead up. I think there was less like, oh my God, oh my God. There, online people were having their moments. But like, yeah, I think it was, it just, there were other things going on in the world that I think distracted a little bit from the buildup here. And when you layer that

into the fact that I think some of the normies maybe didn't get wrapped into the quests and the puzzles and the challenges because the early messaging was around vinyl that I think some people stopped paying attention. And so that, it just felt like a cleaner. I can turn on the headphones like I do every single time. I listen on headphones with no distractions the first time through, no lyrics, just to feel. When does my heartbeat faster? When does the hair on my neck stand up? When does my mind wander? Because I'm bored. When do I get those insane chills that run like, from the back of my head into my lats and into my spine. Like, then I go and I read it, you know, with the lyrics.

And it's a very different experience for me. But the social piece was funny. There's just so much slop on there right now, Nora. And it's so clear that there are bots and there are, you know, whoever is trying to foment division, they pick these high-profile American cultural moments and they come in and just build up a bunch of tension and fighting and conflict that isn't even real. So it's hard to parse through the funny shit, right? Like, there was some funny shit.

I mean, and some of it is like tongue-in-cheek criticism, right? But like somebody wrote, you know, this album sounds like it was announced on a sports podcast. Like somebody wrote, the best Taylor Swift song this year is still, how bad do you want me? Like, that was funny, whether you believe it or not. But just picking that out in between the drama around Charlie, which we'll get into, some people who really, at least if you read online, don't like this record. Some people who just are marching to the beat of, oh, my God, it's the greatest thing ever. And I think most of that shit that you're seeing on social media is not real.

And so for me, I guess my point is I'm with you that it used to be that these moments on social were so freaking fun. And the slop is getting in the way of us just having this one communal moment where we love it, we hate it, we met it, wherever you fall on that barometer, you come together. And we do lose, like, you're right to point out that it used to be really fun. And I agree that, like, to some extent, it's, although I think there are ways for it still to be fun. Like, I was watching some substack group chats where it's just like a little bit less, you have a fewer, you have a smaller proportion of bad faith actors. And so people are getting their jokes off and like having an experience together.

And that's really fun and it doesn't have that as much. The thing that I want to point out is, is just that there was something for me about disengaging with that that made it a really just lighthearted experience in a way that I'm grateful for. But the thing that's really funny about it is that I think it is so like these really intense reactions. Right. Because Taylor Swift right now is someone who, no matter what she does, provokes insanely strong reactions on both sides. And it's a funny contrast with this album,

which I think is fine to pretty good. And it's like this... Not that deep. It's not that deep. It's just like a fun... It's a fun 40 minutes of pop songs. Everybody needs to. to calm down.

You need to calm down. That is exactly my reaction to this. And look, I don't think this is the album might give someone to make the case that she's one of the best songwriters on the planet. In 20 years when we do the Taylor Swift Pantheon, we're not going to talk about a lot of this music. We're just not.

But I had a nice time. Like, I had a really nice time, and I think it succeeds at a lot of the things that it's trying to do. Well, tell me about that. Just like that's such a different sort of scope than Taylor Swift is fomenting trad wifery for a new generation. Or Taylor Swift has just made the best album that's ever been in out. Like, it's just so out of control.

Yeah, I mean, it is. It doesn't have to be the best ever. This does not have to be your favorite Taylor Swift album. It doesn't have to melt your face off. Like she's done things in her career that were worthy of that. And I think you're probably full of shit if you tell me that that's what's happening to you right now. It's hero worship. It's lack of critical thinking.

We talked about this before. This podcast, we started it to try to convince the world that this woman was one of the greatest of all time as an artist, as a songwriter, as a business person. That is boring at this point because it's been established. So like it's okay to for everything not. to be up and to the right. Like, everything doesn't get continually better until she quits or dies. No artist has ever been like that. But also, it's okay to enjoy it. Like, it's okay to be like, yeah, I think a lot of the production choices worked out really well. And I like some happy songs. And, oh, there are some surprises along the way. And I want to dance to the fate of Ophelia,

which, by the way, is a bop. So, like, I just, that's how I feel right now. The record, it's great that she has something meaningful to say by album 12. It builds on what she's done before, on a standalone basis with this album. No, but she's made 11 albums before that. And I think that's, it finds ways to be different. That's exactly what we were asking for. What if she makes 30 albums? Like you said, what will stand out about this one?

Honestly, it's going to be Travis's dick. That's what's going to stand out about album 12. Yeah, no, we will be like the life of a. showgirl. I think we will remember I think we will remember going back to Max and having that turn out in a way that's very different from what people expected, but I think still was cool and we'll talk about some of the reasons why. And then I think people will remember

that, you know, Taylor Swift was in love and definitely in lust. Yeah. Here's to me the underlying, like, main point of it. If you want to get philosophical about it, if you have to take it somewhat seriously, I don't blame you. Because let me just be clear, my first pass of this album, I didn't like it.

Okay. Yeah. But, and then I spun it a few more times and it got a lot better for me. And it is very reputational-esque in that way. but here's the key point for me. This is the first time since debut that Taylor Swift has shown her age. It is incredible that after 12 albums,

she still has something to contribute. And she has this base of life experiences that like half the listening population doesn't. She has more hashtag perspective than a lot of her fans. She's old enough to be reflected back on things that happened like 20 years ago. She's fucking baking bread instead of scrolling, right? She's using slang that dates her. And she's writing a basketball hoops in the driveway

being an imminent thing in her life, right? She's giving you life advice about the passage of time. And that's the essence of why this album, I think, hits differently depending on your generation. Like Taylor Swift is getting older. And she sees that time is not. an infinite resource and she spoke about it on new heights when she announced the album and it's impacting how she writes for all of her obsession with shakespeare to me this woman is a lot more akin to hamilton in that she works and she writes like she's running out of time the album doesn't feel what songs are you thinking about when you say this i'm thinking about the entire project like the album doesn't feel rushed but it feels like she was busy to me nora

and that it received part of her bandwidth when she constructed it. Like, not all of it. Like, the rollout, that feels like we got her full brain. But the songwriting to me is a reflection of what happens when you get older. Other things in your life start to get in the way of the passions of your youth,

that she can still be so good as she enters this, like, transition to a generation, at least, once removed, is a testament to her greatness. And so when you think about where she actually is in life, and I think you ask me what songs, do I think she's communicating that? I think she's got a host on here

where she's talking about it. I think Elizabeth Taylor is one. I think the fate of Ophelia is one. I think father figure is one. I think eldest daughter is one. I think it's a through line and ruin the friendship. Yeah, eldest daughter really resonates with me in terms of what you're saying.

But I'm not a bad bitch, and this isn't savage, but I'm never going to let you down. But she's, she's, all of the criticisms that are being leveled at this album, and I think some of them are valid, are coming from the place of, like, on debut, you couldn't really identify with this if you were a 40-year-old. person or a 30-year-old person or a 20-year-old. This album feels like its target demo is somebody who's 35, about to be 36, and that's her and Travis. And I think when you ask the wine moms right now, they love this record. And I think when you ask the 20-year-olds, they're like, it's a little millennial, it's a little cringy. And that's okay. Taylor Swift created this massive monocultural moment that bound every single person together just about on the planet. And it was natural that the next thing that she introduced was not necessarily going to be

everyone's unifying thing. Yeah, it's interesting that you received that as something where the sort of different people who experience it differently are based on, are separated by age. and I totally see what you're talking about because there is. And, you know, in some of the lyrics that some people find cringy and some people find very truthful, there is this kind of live, laugh, love, millennial slaying element to it that does really, like, pinpoint the era of life that she's in. I do think that it also, to me, it reads a little bit as, you know, I get the sense that she's still pretty caught up in. she had this fling with a person who she identified as a pinnacle of cool,

of sort of like urban cool. And I'm talking about Maddie Healy and wound up feeling very rejected by that. And I think, I feel like a lot of what comes through this album is the pendulum. swinging back pretty hard in a different way, that's fine, reject me. I'll just move to Ohio. She's cheer captain and I'm on the bleachers?

Yeah, but it's not. It's like she's... She's dating the fucking captain. She's at CBGBs and I'm... I'm at book club, maybe. Like, there's a... There's, I think there's an overall point of view of I have been rejected from the cool city kids table. And I am embracing that I'm not a bad bitch.

I am, I am like, you know, I am, I am embracing my basicness. And I think that that's something that like, I think that's an experience that actually, it resonates with a lot of people. And, and I think it, there's probably an equal proportion. of people who are rubbed the wrong way by that, at least in moments. I'm, like, as far as the album goes, I'm neutral on it because I buy it. Like, it feels very true to me. And so, like, on an album that I don't find very revealing, like, I don't think that's

what it's... Well, it reveals... ...dly is, like, telling us a lot about where Taylor Swift is right now. Well, sure it does. It tells us where... Well, yeah, other than the obvious. There's a reason that Travis Kelsey... was holding up that album with this just gleeful grin on his face, that entire thing.

He's like, this is a great, this is great for me. This is great for me. It's like, it's really, listen. Rodwood tree, it ain't hard to see his love was the key to open my thighs. It's exactly what Ariana did for Pete Davidson. You never must have my back, the front of sky, and don't my left. And it is very funny to me that the Pinocchio reference was just like, you know, expanding wood. So we will talk about the Charlie stuff, but I want to just pull back because you're sort of making the point right now.

I think that Taylor Swift, one of the things that she's articulated through this campaign already on some of these interviews was this fear that, if she actually found the love that she was looking for, that it was going to fuck up her art. And there is this, like, as, you know, when you have a billion dollars and you've cleared the highest peak of struggle and descended into the valley of a, you know, loving relationship, there is the risk that something is going to creep in. Should we be worried about her creative output as she settles into wifedom and motherhood?

Yes, we should. Every artist produces well from a position of struggle and suffering. The story of the artist is the story of Jesus, like suffering for the greater good. And as every great artist has gotten older. Right. Yeah. As every great artist has gotten older and more comfortable, like their output from a popular acceptance standpoint has definitely waned.

Like there's been a few great late in career albums. I don't know, Robert Plant, Johnny Cash made a few, Bonnie Raid, right? But for the most part, like, there is a drop-off. To me, though, what I want to ask you is, I think she revels and seeks out conflict, right? Travis, on that episode of New Heights last week, when they identified him as a Libra, one of the characteristics was doesn't seek conflict, and there's conflict-averse. And they laughed about that. And Travis is like, well, actually, I don't seek out conflict.

it seeks me. But that's Taylor. Taylor seems to seek it out. And we'll talk about this Charlie thing because if you're going to walk the, like she's powered by conflict in this sense of being wronged. It's not necessarily victimhood. I think that's different. But she feels slighted. She feels cheated. She feels disrespected. And she uses that to fuel her. And the reason I want to ask you about it is it is very Tom Brady-esque. She invents. these things to stay at her best. It's Tiger Woods-esque. It's Michael Jordan-esque. Do you see that? I think that it's not, there's a lot of this that feels like she is making it to keep her edge. Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, I think, look, I think people, Taylor Swift has never once in her life won the IDGAF war.

which is by the way what makes it so funny when she does a song like actually romantic or like I forgot that you existed because I love like I'm totally on board with the sentiment and with the sort of performance of wanting to feel like that. Because it's out that you existed. It isn't love it isn't hate. It's just indifference. Ma'am, you've never forgotten anything in your entire life. Right. But that's part of the fun of it. And we'll get to that song.

But I do like to me it was a highlight. It doesn't mean that I think. think that everything about how it came to be is entirely becoming. But musically, and in terms of feeling like there's a vibrancy and a kick to it, I think it puts her in some of her strongest modes. I like the Travis songs. I think she was really smart to just be like, you know, this isn't really about what I'm, the picture that I'm painting of this relationship. This is just it's vibes based. Like there's that line in fate of Ophelia

where she says, the land the sea of disguise, pledge allegiance to your hands, your team, your vibes. And when I heard that line the first time, and I actually usually don't cringe at the stuff that people cringe at. Before that line,

she says keep it 100. So I mean, that's, but go ahead. And I will admit that the first time I heard that, I kind of winced. You have to selectively edit it. Oh, God, pledge allegiance to your vibes.

I don't know what I'm going to be able. to defend about that one. I do have to say that I think there's something truthful about that. Where, like, if you ask me right now what the most vivid lyrics that Taylor Swift has put pen to paper about Travis Kelsey in her discography so far are the man she's going to marry, I will tell you that it is, you know how to ball. I know Aristotle. Yeah. And new heights of manhood. Yeah.

Like this, I mean, and if we go back through time and think about the things that she's written about people that just sort of like pierce your soul and take you into it. It's a different thing. But that's it. But where I think it comes through is the vibes. Like there's a cheerfulness to a lot of what she writes about him that I, that I feel like reflects something true. and... Yeah. Look,

to me, this is a reminder that actual love is really dumb and it's been explored. Yeah, and really boring. Well, it is. I mean, from the outside in this endless quest for that feeling

that she was moved to write all of these searing, heart-wrenching lyrics that grew ever poetic over the course of 11 albums, then she finds love. She finally breaks through and gets into that valley of heaven

of a relationship that she'd long for and she starts writing songs about dick and using, you know, I'll never leave you as the key line in a chorus. Just the most basic stuff. That's okay, but it just seems like... Wish list.

Other people want stuff. I just want you. She didn't find... Hold on. She didn't find any new ground to explore when she finally got there. It was all, it just didn't inspire her to be moved. And so the best lyrical moments of this album come from her tapping into either the past or the grievance.

Or the grievance. The line and father figure about I pay the check before it kisses the mahogany grain. She's spoken about that now. It is one of the most poetic and best written lines on the album. There isn't one line like that about love here. Pay the check before a hog in the grain. Or even like, look, I think it's a mean thing to say. I think it is a mean song, and you can feel however you feel about this.

But I heard you call me Boring Barbie when the Cokes got you brave is a bar. I heard you call me boring Barbie when the Cokes got you brave. Yes. And so remember that, like, she knows from whence the fuel comes. into the engine and what needs to go into that fuel tank to make it work. And yes, she is recycling some old themes. She's going to be picking fights until the end of time. Yes, because I think what we learned most about this album is Taylor Swift is showing her age,

and that is fine. But also, there are things that fuel her creativity, and there are things that do not. and the happiness that she's feeling, I'm happy for her, I'm thrilled for her. But I suspect that at least in that moment of a summer in Europe in which the pie chart of her time had many slices, of which a small one was making this album, she didn't exactly tap into the Shakespearean word.

Lyrically. Lyrically. And that is, that is, that is ultimately okay, but I do think it makes me interested as she has communicated what's going forward. She's not going to tour this album. She needs a break. She's going to make a block full of kids that look like Travis. I'm interested to see what she does with more time. And it's been a theme of ours, as we've talked about her for the last year almost. It was what she going to do? How is she going to? That's the thing for me is like I am thrilled to see what

happens if she has more time what she does from an artistic perspective. Yeah, but I will say that I think there's, I think there's some artistry in the music here. I don't, I don't feel like she's in a place where she has a ton to say right now, but I think it was an astute choice to not make this an album about spilling your guts or about you know, I think there were a number of ways in which the campaign ended up being kind of a set of red herrings

or at least a little bit different from how the album came out and I think one of them was that it's this like look behind the curtain um it doesn't feel like that does it? No, no, I mean even when it ends on the life of a showgirl

and she says, you don't know the life of a show girl and you're never ever gonna. It's like an beach but you don't know the life of a show girl

but never gonna I, it's like an interesting thing to hide and I know that's the conversation the dialogue within the song

but the only person who ends up actually having any insight within that song by the end of it is the protege who also becomes a show girl.

So inherently like when that person is a fan when they're the audience they don't know. They don't know anything. And like that to me is a lot more true to this body of music than the sort of preamble of I'm going to raise the curtain

and show you all exactly what it was like and tell you things you didn't know. Yeah, I also think that that theme, I agree with you on that. I think it's a reflection of the production choice that she made too. I mean, we begged her to not work with Jack and Aaron for once because we wanted something different. And I think this is, this album is a reflection of that creative process of Max versus Jack and Aaron. Like, Max is formulaic and he is mathematical. And she is decidedly not anymore.

Yeah. And there are places on this album where they talk over each other a bit. Like the second verse of eldest daughter is not a Max Martin song. That's the trampoline bit where she says, you know, I must have been eight. or nine and I broke my arm. Because I broke my arm. I must have been about eight or nine. That was the night I fell off and broke my arm. And like the words sort of like all, there's like a 40 car crash on an interstate and a fog on that verse as they try to sort of turn it from, you know, her, even the Spotify background video

is just her in an empty theater playing piano. That's much more suited for a Jacker-Aren treatment than it is a Mac song, right? Right. And I think there are moments on this album where they're slightly out of sync in terms of the way that she creates and the way that he creates. But this is what we asked for. We asked for her to be edited, to be concise, and to work with somebody different. And we kind of asked for her to go straight pop. And she took her swing. And so I am fascinated to hear Nora what you think of these songs. because when we came into it, maybe we did this wrong. And I think that was the point of your intro. Like, we set a pretty high bar.

Because from my perspective, all that was left for her to do musically was to do what she did in live performance, which was to create this massive monocultural hit that spans across generations. And I think by any measure right now, and by the way, the Spotify numbers are going to be awesome on all this stuff. But don't lose some.

there is a bunch of slopping bullshit on social media. Not everybody loves this album. There are people who just haven't gotten there. And I'm sure your DMs reflect my DMs, which is that there's some people who love it, and there's some people who don't. I think there is not a generational transcending, you know, forever, all-timer on this record.

Do you agree? I do when you put it that way. What I will say, and we can, I want to address what you were saying about Max, too, and these will sort of stand in for, our hit conversation and our collaborator conversations here. But in terms of the hit potential, I do think that the fate of Ophelia was the right single.

I think it's really catchy. I know that, you know, it's funny, like, that the land, the sea, the skies has been so stuck in my head. It's not my favorite song. I don't think it's the best song. But I think it was the absolute right choice for the single. I think it's... You do.

I think it's going to, I think people are going to listen to it a lot. I think it just goes down so easily. And I think if you're someone who actually, like, isn't deep in the lore, it's a really nice song. It's a really nice song for the Normies. And that's a lot of people. So I think that she's going to have a pretty big hit with that. I don't think that it's going to be, again, like. Is it anti-hero?

It's at least anti-hero. It's not cool summer. Yes, yes. No, I think it's, I think it's... Whoa. I think it is as effective as a single. I think that anti-hero has a lot more to say, but I think for the masses, it's a step-catchier.

Really? I disagree. I think that it is behind both anti-hero and Fortnite. Right. And look, there is a lot of summertime sadness. There's a lot of summertime sadness in this chorus, right? I got that summertime, summertime sadness. Summertime, summertime sadness. I think the debate is whether this melody in the chorus really kicks ass.

I mean, the coolest part of this for me, by the way, and I think this is expressly intentional. This song starts like it's track 32 on Tortured Poe. with the piano. And the end of the manuscript has these sort of octaves on piano. The only thing that's left is the manuscript. One last souvenir from my trip to your shore.

And this starts with this very similar vibe. And then it clicks in and straight into the max pop beat. I love the way that you are brought into the pop world immediately. And it's exactly, you know, I think, I don't think that people really saw the overall kind of 70s vibe of this album coming. But where it does feel very grounded in the music that she's made with Max Martin and Shelbach before is the percussion. Is those just like, you know, picture the field hockey stick, right? Like it's those kits over and over again. Yeah, there are more acoustic instruments on this album than I expected.

But look, on Ophelia in particular, first of all, the fate of Ophelia, now we know why. she called it the fate of Ophelia instead of Ophelia. It's because it has to be the stage in the Ares Tour drawing when you center all of these song titles. But there are a lot of minor chords here that she's working around. And that's the thing for me, why I think for some people, it's not going to totally grab. Why didn't she try, I don't know, why didn't she start with Opelite?

I'm surprised that you think this one, I mean, I get it. Oh, interesting. And I like, look, the music video is fun. She's directing it. It feels, you know, fan targeted in its own way. I get it. I'm just going to be interested to see if this ultimately in three years is streamed in the same way that Fortnite and that anti-hero are streamed. I mean, look, right now, Fortnite is still today her eighth most streamed song on a daily basis. Baddy. You'll never get me there with that song. Well, anti-hero less so. Anti-hero's got... Anti-hero has more all the time.

We have a little bit of a different perspective on because I think for people who really, really care, there was something really meaningful about it's me, hi, I'm the problem, it's me. Like that was such a moment in terms of her kind of self-conception. And it was really powerful, because of that. If that's not something that matters to you, which when we're talking about the hits, you know, the mainstream CVS parentheses complementary soundtrack hits, I think that stuff is less

important. Like, you know, I used to wonder if I was romantically cursed and then now you saved me. Yeah. Like, if you're someone who's like, gosh, Taylor Swift teaches me about the world and about her soul. Yeah. It probably recalibrates the experience of this song. If you just want to have a nice time, it's a bop, not a banger.

But it's the one that's been the clearest earworm to me. So I think it was the right call. Okay. I mean, I just will say, anti-hero is her fourth most stream song ever? Sure. So that's the class

that you're putting the fate of Ophelia in if you say that it's gonna that it's gonna get there. But I am going to be interested to see. I honestly don't think that some of those metrics are that valuable

just because she is so big right now and they get playlisted so ubiquitously that like you know where like there are so cruel summer is the biggest.

Cruel summer is the biggest. Summer's the biggest. Blank space is second. And I'll write your name. And then what's number three? You're not going to believe it. Zane, who is reuniting with Louis Tomlinson. Oh, right. Of course. It's I don't want to live forever.

Yeah. And then it's anti-hero. Now, in terms of like, what people are streaming on a daily basis, it's Cruel Summer, it's Cardigan, August, Blank Space, dress, style lover, Fortnite on down, on down. But number eight is Fortnite. But for instance, like style. Style is...

Yeah, style is a hit. Or six. Right. But style is a song that made an impact in its popularity. Right. In a way that some of these songs, like that anti-hero...

That's why I think you look at the daily streams instead of all-time streams. Because of course, of course, like Fearless, which came out when there were CDs and not streaming, like, that's when a ton of the listening happens. So I think looking at the daily streams gives you a better sense for where these things sit on the sort of rank order all-time stuff. But on the rank order all-time, that puts right now, and again, I think there's recency bias in tortured poet stuff, but Fortnite is 8th. Yeah. And anti-hero then is only 20th. Yeah, that's where that makes more sense

to me, not in terms of where I believe it deserves to fall. I think that's an amazing song. But I just like, I don't hear anti-hero all the time out in the world. I don't think that it has had that type of life. And I wouldn't, you know,

if fate of Ophelia ends up 12th or something, and again, like, it's still tied to the ways that people consume music. Yeah. Do you hear the summertime sadness? In the chorus?

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And because the craziest part about the announcement on George Michael State's, you know, page saying, hey, we so appreciate that Taylor has done this for us. And, you know, there was all love between the two. And, of course, I got just irrationally excited because Faith is one of my all-time favorite albums. And then you would never know that Father Figure is in the school.

You'd have no fucking idea. You have no fucking clue. And there are... 12 other times on this album where you're like, well, she's definitely giving royalties to the pixies or Jackson Five. The Jackson Estate.

The Jonas Brothers. Surely they are paying... No? George Michael? Got royalties? For like a really subtle rhythm that no one would pick out. And that's the thing.

I mean, there's so much on this record where you're like, did she pay post Malone for circles? Because the start of opalite sounds a lot like circles. Did she pay, you know, the Ronnettes for the oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, on opalite? Because that sounds a lot like it was brought from Be My Baby. Did she pay the Thompson twins for the start of that chorus on opalite? Because, well, it's not quite, but we can talk about that. But like, there's so, did she pay herself for I can see you on OPL?

There's lots of places where you'd be like, hey, what is this? You couldn't understand it. And I did think that George Michael thing, like, it gives you a sense for how she thinks about the value in songwriting and that knowing that the concept was inspired by that song. and that, yes, she was flipping the power dynamics, but that it was rooted in the story of that song. She says, well, therefore, I should hate it. You think who's rooted in the story of a sort of questionable age gap relationship?

Well, yeah, because I think she shreds Scott Borschette on father figure. And I think, you know, in hindsight, after going through this entire saga to buy back her masters, that's exactly what she feels. She feels like the age gap and the protege stuff. that all of that was manipulation. But man, you know, there are a lot of opportunities here where she could have paid just musically.

But it is an indication of why when Olivia Rodriguez record came out, it did not have the tributes to Taylor. And then when she publicly talked about Taylor being an inspiration for some of these songs, suddenly up popped a writing credit to Taylor. That, if you really are paying attention, tells you how Taylor thinks about where the value of influence in songs comes from.

And maybe it's less about, hey, that riff that sounds a little bit like ABC from the Jackson Puck or I want you back. And more like, because she is first and foremost a writer. Whether she's writing about, you know, knocking on wood or writing about, you know, the far corners of Emily Dickinson, She is a writer, and it is the inspiration for that that I think she holds apparently most dear

based on, at least as we know and as we understand publicly, the places where she brought in other writers onto this record. It only happened once. I'm not wishing for Joe Jonas Taylor Swift litigation. I actually hope that doesn't happen. I don't think it will. I'm just saying that it would be an interesting twist. Well, let's be clear. The life of a showgirl

really sounds like cool by the Jonas Brothers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It does. And there's just no denying it. And there are people who are, you know, I mean, yes, the chorus of opalite sounds like Thompson twins hold me now. But it doesn't really.

like opalite goes G to E minor to A minor and then resolves like D7 to D Hull me now would be the equivalent of going to the F major instead of the A minor. So it goes part of the way there. I think mostly that chorus is just ABA shit. It's just Aba. Like this thing was, remember, it was recorded in Sweden.

Like, let's not, you know, Max. It was in Sweden where this whole thing was made. So there, but there are a lot of those like hat tip to other songs in here. Do you think there's a chance that any other song can be based? I mean, I get why they didn't run with wood, but like, I mean, I don't think you can show that music video in theaters. It's fucking awesome. I just, look, let's let her have fun. It's fine. I think it's

more of a, it's more of a Wolfpack song than a Jackson 5 song, but it is, I mean, there's two things. One is the, the melody in the post chorus, forgive me, it sounds cocky, is right out of out of blank space. Boys only want love when it's torture. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This song to me, it sounds cocky

and ties me and open my eyes. Boys only want love if it's torture. This song to me is the most reminiscent of 1989 and is Shake It Offesque in which you're like, out of the gates, you're like, I've definitely heard this before. It's a little out of place. It's not what I expected from her.

But fuck, it's catchy. It's so And it's so Like the goofiness of it Just I think I think she should be encouraged And commended

For going As often as she can Into those specific feelings Because there's some amount Of like horniness Okay Because Because like songs like

Fadophelia are painting with a very broad brush. And you know what? Wood? It's a lot more narrow. You know exactly what's going on. Sure. Did I ever expect to hear the word dictumatized?

I mean, I guess like she doesn't really say it, but you know what she means. In a Taylor Swift song? No, I didn't. And I love to be surprised. This would be a fun one live. I'm sure we get it someday. But this is a fun-ass song.

And I think it's big. I do. Pardon the pun. Do you think that we would have this song without the influence of Sabrina Carpenter? Well, that's a good question. And one of the criticisms that got sort of leveled here at this record is that she's trying to do Sabrina Carpenter, but it doesn't quite work. And when I think people say she's trying to do Sabrina Carpenter, what they mean is do the smart, horny, clever, coy play. And Taylor has a little bit too much. poetry for that in some cases. I don't think she's trying to do Sabrina Carpenter. I mean, look... I don't think she's trying to do Sabrina Carpenter.

I do think that Sabrina might have given her a permission structure that maybe Taylor, who can be a little... You know, it took her a long time to start swearing. But remember... Made her feel a little bit more comfortable doing this. So the 2024 summer of Pop Girl happened in stages.

And don't forget... forget the Sabrina's album came out in late August. And so if she was running around Europe, recording this record, had she heard it from Sabrina? For sure she had. But it wasn't out until late August. Brat was out. Chapel Rhone was out. So there were a lot of those pop girls that were busting through and certainly were on her iPhone as she was listening to music with whatever sliver of time she had to do that in between everything. But do I think that she's copying Sabrina Carpenter? My answer is no.

Do I think that she, that Sabrina is squarely on Team Taylor if there is a new sort of bad blood alignment around the underground Coke camp and otherwise? I don't either. But I'm just saying she's close. She's close. I just think it's close. But Sabrina is also Has embraced the most old Hollywood visuals

Tributes to the elder kind of thing That would make her the new showgirl So that makes sense to me And by the way, she opened for Taylor on the Ares Tour And that's the last thing that we hear On Life of a Showgirl On the outro is actual audio from Taylor signing off in Vancouver

Right. Right, right, right. I want to know your other favorite songs. Well, Wood is definitely... Wood's your number one? No. I love Wishlist. I know it's simple, but I just love the... I love the melody.

First of all, there's a very brief Bev sighting coming out of the bridge on Wishlist. Wow. I hope I get what I want. because I know what I want. It's very faint and in the background, but Bev shows up briefly. This is unexpected for me.

This is an unexpected take. I think that this song is the manifestation of all the good energy that people felt about her engagement. You know, she kind of could have had anything in the world, but this is what she wanted. And so they'll leave us the fuck alone and they do. Like, I think she's getting tired

of being a public figure. And I think she's going to, disappear for a bit. I'm just telling you. Yeah. There's a little bit of glitch in this song. I think there's been a glitch. Five seconds later, I'm fastening myself to you with a stick. I just want you. Yeah, that's true. A little bit of Midnights here. And as I was sort of doing some of my listening, I bounced back to Midnights and oh my God, is that a great record? Like, oh my God, is Midnight's so good. And this album has a lot in common with Midnights, I think. In some ways, it's like the album that people thought she was going to make when she made Midnights

with all of the kind of 70s aesthetic promo. Yeah, yeah. But look, I have a very strong bias that I will tell the story as briefly as I possibly can. My favorite song on this album is Ruin the Friendship. And I know that for a lot of people, this is the one that doesn't quite fit. But first of all, it is like so Taylor's

Swift to be in the heat of a relationship that's going to ultimately lead to her wedding. And she writes a song about a guy that she wishes she'd kissed who died from high school. Yes. It is just like exactly what Taylor Swift would do. But I think the building of it was not an invitation should have kissed you anyway, particularly the back part, the outro. I think it's the best groove. I think it's the best melody.

It's the one thing that choked me up on this album. And it taps her into my bias. is my first love in high school. She moved away and we had one of those awful goodbye like while we're still dating. And so she just stuck with me forever. As somebody does, like you give somebody in every relationship. And that's a thing that Taylor sort of alludes to

across this record is like in every relationship, you give somebody a part of you. And a part of that is time because that's a thing that you can't make more of. And so it's a very valuable gift. You give somebody something. And so they stay with you forever, and that is part of what this is about.

But I reconnected with this woman maybe, I don't know, 10-ish years ago. And then, like, very briefly, and then, like, it popped up in my feed that she had taken her own life. And that, it just, it always haunts you because you're not the main character in that. You're not connected to them, but you were.

And it makes you feel like, man, And if I, could I have been the butterfly wings that started the hurricane that made that happen? Or could I have been, if I'd acted differently, you know, could I have changed the course of that person's life in a different way? So my own personal bias is what drew me to the content of the song. But just like musically, before I even really dove. And first of all, insane plot twist in this song. Like you do not see it coming. You do not see it coming.

It's just like, holy shit. Wait, what? I left school, I lost track of you. Abigail called me with the bad news. Goodbye. But there is like bringing Abigail in, bringing all of it, just sort of like for me rooted me back in, yes, it's Taylor, she's still got it. That is, even though the verses sound like Lenny Kravitz's, it ain't over till it's over.

Yeah. No, I mean, first of all, thank you for saying that. but also it does feel, it feels like storytelling with her fastball. And I agree with you that that was, that was the one that choked me up. Probably for obvious reasons. I mean, it's the most emotionally wrenching

thing that happens on the album. And I think it's a, I think it's a really beautiful song. I also, you know, it has those sort of, it's not, pure country Taylor, but you know that the background is there with kind of how that melody glides and a little bit in the vocal. I think the singing on that song is also really, really beautiful. So I love that song as well. I love that that and wood are your favorite.

Opelite. Opalite, I really enjoy. I just do. It's just fun. It's easy. There's something about the bridge or the chorus that and the way that it resolves you sort of expect it. But It's incredibly fun. Where are you? I mean, I'm hearing all across the board on people's different favorite songs. It feels tortured poets in that way. I mean, there are a lot of people who feel like, who feel like actually romantic is their favorite.

There's a lot of people. I don't know. Where are you? Yeah. If you say honey, I also love O'Blaid. And I think the, I'm not going to say honey. Although I think a lot of people really like honey.

One thing on opalite is that I think the almost like saccharine cheesiness of it is on purpose. And I think that's a fun thing to do. You think it's a little tongue and cheek. Yeah, I think it's a little tongue and cheek. I think the Ronettes, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Like I think she knows that that's almost a musical trope of I'm singing about my love and it's lovey-dovey and cutie. My favorites, I've got three favorites. Okay.

First of all, I think Elizabeth Taylor's great. Yeah. And that's the one that's reputation, Max. You think so? Yeah, I mean, it's close. It's a cousin. Yeah, I mean, there's like, it's a very, um, there's, like, the chords are like all along the watchtower.

There's like a bit of a darkness. So, yeah, it goes, it goes very hard. But like. And I can just see her kind of stomping down a stage. in boots and it has an energy that some of the songs, and actually in an odd way, some of the songs that I think are lyrically strongest, like, I love father figure and I want to talk about this with you. I think that's an, like, the writing of that song is really powerful to me. And the idea that she's embracing her stature and basically being like, no, I am the big swinging dick at this

table is one of my favorite modes that I wish that she would do more. I think the writing is some of the strongest writing that's on this album. And I think the melody is good. My one, the one thing that is stopping that from being one of my favorite songs is that I don't feel like there's any energy in the singing. Yeah. Like she sounds a little asleep. and it's this like powerful powerful song.

And I'm, it, it, there's a dissonance. There's like a cognitive dissonance in the delivery of it where it, that's what's stopping it from fully connecting to me. But those lyrics I think are incredible. So that would be my fourth favorite if it, if it weren't for that. It doesn't have the like, who's afraid of little old me like scariness in it, right? I mean, it, it, it, there is shocking. feel her like growling or threatening.

You should be. Right. There's a death threat at the end of that song. You'll be sleeping with the fishes. You'll be sleeping before you know you're drowning. Yeah. But she sounds like she's like she sounds like she's putting in her takeout order. I find this to be a cousin to the man from lover.

And. Because I am the man. Yeah. Yeah, she is. And it's a very like, and it follows the same pattern of a lot of her other songs, I think, about Last Great American Dynasty, and then it was bought by me, where she inserts herself very clearly into the story in the last verse, right, where this is about Scott Borchetta, and this is a summation of how she views the path that she went on to reacquire her own masters.

and the strategy of it all. And, I mean, it is still, through this entire campaign, the only thing that she gets choked up over talking about, right? Yeah. And the whole song sort of pivots on that phrase, leave it with me. And it is, of course, her catalog. Like, it's mine.

I protect the family. That, if you remember, she laid out all those albums in the picture and said, you know, they're mine now. And, like, all of her children, basically. Right? So there's a very sort of mama bear fighter component to that song that is interesting. And it has her favorite lyric. Like she was focused on this one.

And I think it's because she very clearly wanted it wasn't just a feeling song. She was delivering a specific message. And again, tapping into that chip on her shoulder. I want to take you back really quickly before we hear your favorites to Elizabeth Taylor. Because I just, I want to ask you this. Which is one of my favorites. She said, role models are hard to come by,

but she is absolutely one of mine. Taylor said that in regards to Elizabeth Taylor. Elizabeth Taylor had eight husbands and married one of them twice. Is this who Taylor thinks she is right after she gets engaged? It would be pretty consistent with the things that she said about

sort of her self-conception and romantic anxieties, which I think you can find the love of your life and the most stable, wonderful, healthy relationship, it's not going to turn you into a person who doesn't have worries.

That's not how anything works. Hollywood hates me. Right, and that's part of why I like the song. That's part of why... You're only as hot as your last hit baby to me is another, like one of the most important lines on this album. And why I asked you at the beginning

what you think the fate of Ophelia is going to do. Is it going to be that, hit is, is it going to transcend? Yeah. I think you're right. All of those, all those anxieties are expressed here in this song, Elizabeth Thiel. I just found it hilarious that she talked about as a role model, you know, pre-marriage.

Somebody. Well, I think she likes to cast herself in the guys of these troubled, famous women of history, right? Yeah. The other thing that I absolutely love, one of my favorite lyrical moments. moments period on this entire album is when she says, I would trade the Cartier for someone I could trust. And then there's the little backing vocal that goes, just kidding.

That's really funny. I know. There are a few fourth wall breaks here that are super fun. But wait. Okay. So we like father figure. We like Elizabeth Taylor. What is your favorite song in this album?

So I have three. There's the three that that really got me are Elizabeth Taylor, actually romantic, and Wood. And those are my three favorite songs. Yes. Yes. They have the most like energy to me. Wood. Wood.

No, what is going to win? What is great? No, what is the consensus? What is the every single album consensus favorite song on the life of a showgirl? And it is entirely about Travis Kelsey's penis. And that's just something that you and I are going to have to live with. Well, I don't want to talk about that anymore. I want to talk about actually romantic.

Because, wow, she went for it, didn't she? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, this is a nasty song. Like, this is a mean, mean song. The first time I listened to this, I was like, is this her Will Smith moment? Like, is this such a disproportionate response where she missed the point so much.

much. You tell me what you think. I think context matters here in this battle. It's clear that there was more than this song and that Taylor has received some intel from people close to the situation that it has not been all just confusion and intimidation at the enormity of Taylor's stature, that there's been words and high-fiving and dissing, right? I mean, I think you have to believe that to not believe this was a disproportionate response to Sympathy as a Knife by Charlie XEX. Yeah, but you know what? Like people don't fight fair.

Like I agree with that. Clearly, like the song starts and it, of course, mentions you wrote a song about me, but the first thing you hear is, I've heard that you're talking about me with my ex. You fucking cokehead. You know, yeah, you fucking cokehead. Which I'm sure that.

Charlie XX is shaking in her boots that someone called her a cocaine user. I don't, but I think that it's like, it's gloriously petty. It's glorious, like, it's also, you know, there's the whole thing about the, um, like a chihuahua barking from a purse. Right. Toy chihuahua. A toy chihuahua. Like a toy chihuahua barking at me from a tiny purse.

That's how much it hurts Okay That's That's in some ways A fair way to Sort of stack up Their relative stature As

Mainstream musical artists It's also beneath her It's not Well, but it's The flip side of that is like Okay, you guys were both nominated For the same album of the year You were like

But I don't think that the the logic of like, is this fair? Is this nice? That's, I don't, I frankly don't care. Like, I don't, I think Charlie XX is just fine. I don't really think that this is going to bother her. I don't think that Taylor has never said anything nasty about her own partners or partners' friends' exes, right? Like we're not all perfect saints and angels. And the honesty of that and the, like this is not an album with a super wide emotional spectrum. Like there's a lot of this that is, I'm happy. I have a fiance.

And that's fine, but it's pretty narrow. And this going to, I wake up in the morning and I'm so pissed that I'm just going to be an absolute, you know what. and bully Charlie X-E-X because it kind of turns me on is that's a little bit of a more vibrant state of mind in some ways. So I really dig it. Does it bother you that this song is in the same key and sounds a lot like the Pixies, Where is My Mind? No. No. But none of that stuff bothers me on this album.

think that it's like an interesting, it's interesting in light of the George Michael thing and and how out of her way she went to make that homage clear, credited and publicized and then that in relationship with some of the other stuff. The other thing that's funny about, like I hear the Pixies comp, this sounds quite a lot like an Olivia Rodriguez song. I don't mean a specific one, but just in terms of... And so do you think, do you think for sure Charlie is the subject of this? I mean, the the reasons this is Charlie is because, Charlie has a song called Everything is Romantic. This song is called Actually Romantic.

Which, again, under the father figure structure, it's possible that she ought to be paying royalties. She talks about high-fiving her ex, who we know that she high-fives her ex all the time. Who ghosted her, which is something that she's already said about Maddie. The cocaine, all these. So it lines up pretty clearly. Is there a chance that there's more than Charlie here?

So there's like two ways to kind of, think about the parentage of the song inspirations, right? There's like, what is it, what is it actually and what does it sound like it is? Like her, the way that, you know, she is a performer, she is a writer. The dominant way in which her art is going to be received is in a lot of ways, I think, a lot more important than like what it's actually about, because that's why, people put art out into the world is to have that dialogue with the audience. I don't think there is any chance that Taylor Swift in her right mind could not understand

that almost everyone was going to take this as a clear rejoinder to Charlie XX, to sympathy as a knife, to, you know, the brat pack gallivanting around Europe and Maddie being part of that and... But that's what it is, isn't it? Because sympathy of... Sympathy as a knife is not a disc track. Sympathy as a knife is a compliment. It's a compliment.

It is a very nuanced. You are so successful and you do something that I feel like I could never do. And now that we've been thrust into the same environment, it is tapping all of these insecurities. And it's a vulnerable and. the vulnerable and nuanced articulation of how hard it is to be the life of a showgirl, which Taylor seems to understand well, in an industry in which in a lot of ways,

these women in particular get pitted against each other and how that just eats at somebody who isn't sure of their place in the pecking order in the room. So the song itself, as you just said, was a tribute and a compliment, not a disc track. So then you got to step back and say, well, where is this coming from? And I think you've identified it. I mean, first of all, Charlie did open for Taylor Swift. And so the difference between a song. Quite a long time ago, but yeah. But still, the difference on this album between a song that This is Charlie XX, who was once part of the family tree. Father figure says, I protect the family. And then Sabrina Carpenter, absolutely part of the family who opened up for Taylor, but is now celebrated and lifted up on this album. Those are two very different. different things. So you step back and go to your point is she picked team Maddie. And if we learn one thing from tortured poets, it's that the pain from the Maddie Healy situation was so great that it drowned out any writing about the demise of a six year relationship to Joe Alwyn, save for so long London and maybe a few little other things here and there. So it is that resentment. And I just ask again,

knowing that this is a creator who taps into resentment and taps into, she places chips on her shoulder and then pretends to be surprised that they're there to use them as fuel. She pretends that somebody else put them there. Is this an authentic clapback or is this her needing material?

Like, do I think that she... Invented this. Is she really... really hurt by all of these things that Charlie did. And there must be more behind the scenes, right? She's getting into, there's video of Lord at a dinner and there's, so Lord maybe tattletailed, who know. Lord, by the way, got smacked in the mouth by Charlie on Brat.

And instead of clapping back, did the remix. Well, but also not really. Did the remix. Yeah, but I don't think that she didn't get, I mean, if you call, if you call the of a personal situation in a pretty nuanced way, a smack in the mouth, and she got smacked in the mouth. I wouldn't really call it back.

I would have understood Lord having a harder time getting the nuance and vulnerability of what was being communicated. I don't actually think Charlie was smack. I think Lord got the point, understood the assignment, and turned it into... One of the songs of the year.

Well, honestly, I was speechless when I woke up to your voice. Now you told me how you'd been feeling. Let's look it out on the... and a sold out to her and all that. Like she used it as a vector to reintroduce herself and re-inject herself into the conversation. Taylor took a different approach.

Again, this is why I just think context matters here. There's more to it than sympathy is a knife. I don't think the context is sympathy is a knife. Yes, yeah. In that sense, I agree. I don't, I think that in some ways it's probably, you could say it's more about Maddie than it is about Charlie in a way where to me,

I think that this feeling of, yes, it's the romantic rejection from Maddie at the end of their relationship, but it's also the symbolism of it. I think does matter to Taylor and does seem too great on Taylor. I think she craves acceptance from that kind of cool kid-it-girl crowd. and I think she feels right now like she really doesn't have it. And I think that explains so much to me about the... And, you know, I think this is something

that a lot of people have pulled out of this album too is that, okay, a couple years ago, we were writing in Lavender Hayes, no deal that 1950s shit they want for me. And I think that, you know, everyone is entitled to feel excited about their own love story. And if that for her is to, you know, marry a guy and be in this quasi-suburban wag group, I think that's totally fine.

He's one of the most popular athletes in America. He's a, like, it's not like she married an insurance adjuster. Yeah, but it's the, it's the, I want to have, I want to have a bunch of kids and a basketball hoop. and, you know, make the whole block look like you is, of course, it's a reference to wanting to have a bunch of kids who have Travis Kelsey's DNA. It also does, you can read that line as I want to live in a homogenous place. I want to live an unchallenged kind of basic life. And I think she's entitled to want that. I also think that it does seem like a boomeranging

of being just not feeling accepted in a slightly more cosmopolitan worldly crew. She's Taylor fucking Swift. I'm sorry, but that's a purely psychological it's a, I don't know if it's a crutch or

it's a thing she's got to work on in therapy if... No, I couldn't agree more that it's a psychological thing and that Taylor Swift is a very... No, and actually that's where, like, I don't look like I'm getting married, too, like, to a man. It's not... We can't have it be a wholesale indictment of her feminism that she's getting married, right? Like, that can't be it. I do... But Charlie just got married. Maddie's getting married. It's about an association with people, and I think it's about perpetually putting herself in a position.

where she feels that there's something to aspire to that she's not good enough to have. And that's a theme that just rolls through almost everything she's ever written. Yeah. Well, and I do think that there are some moments on this album where it's not that I'm like, oh, because I think some people have had a criticism of this album

that it's like she's sort of doing, you know, trad wife propaganda. I find that ridiculous. She's like one of the most successful business women in entertainment. But that's why the punching down feels weird. Well, and I think that she has stopped acknowledging the fact that she is a sophisticated

cosmopolitan person. Right. Like I don't, and that's part of why I like Elizabeth Taylor, actually, because it just seems to understand that. And then sometimes she sort of, and maybe it's because she has this fantasy of this quiet, simple life, which is actually kind of very difficult

to attain for her because she is this worldly person. I do, like sometimes I chafe at her not embodying that, but I think in this case, I read it as a response to that feeling of rejection, which I totally agree with you

is not real vis-a-vis the world, but I can see, like I think her Songs suggest that it is real in her psyche. She's been hanging out with a lot of athletes and a lot of wags. And that's a different crowd than the runway models and cool indie rockers. And, you know, the comedians and Julia Fox. Like, all, yeah, it's a different vibe. I don't think any of that is unattainable for her.

And that, I think, is a little bit of the. disconnect for some of the listeners on this album is that you have a billionaire who is self-professed in a wonderfully happy place. Like, things are pretty good for her right now. And so the sort of, the punching down is interesting. But again, that's why I say, I think the context matters. And it feels like this is about more than sympathy as a knife. And to me, it feels like this is about more than, oh, I wish I was with you guys. And I'm jealous of the, not with you guys, but, you know, figuratively speaking, I wish I was in the cool crowd. I think that there is more behind the scenes stuff,

that there's some overlap in the camps and that there's people who have some loyalty to Taylor who reported back that this was more than just the messaging that came out in sympathy as a knife and that basically they've been shit-talking her and calling her fucking boring Barbie. Well, and that there's more than that, right? And that to me feels like the fuel.

The Scott Borchetta stuff was real. Like that was a real experience that fueled that level of anger. I'm not sure that she just sort of mustered up faux anger in thin air. But we're never going to know. And I think the fact that we don't have that public context is leading to some of the criticism that she's punching down in this song. My pushback on that is you just don't know. My pushback is that it's fine that she's punching down. It's not necessarily fine in terms of it making her seem like a, you know, universally at every single.

single turn of life, nice, generous person, but very few people are. Like, the... But this is going to be an issue that affects this album and the way it's received

because Charlie is perceived to be part of that younger generation of pop stars that's behind her. She is lumped in with Sabrina, with Olivia, with, you know, the rest of the chapel on and on and on. And the generation

that has gravitated to those young pop stars is feeling defensive of Charlie. Charlie X-X, not sympathetic to Taylor Swift. Yeah. I mean,

that's fine. I think that people were going to... To me, like, because to... I just care... I care about the song. And when she gets to that bridge and she is sneering

the, like, stop talking dirty to me, it's nasty. Like, that's rude. You think I'm tacky, It's not a nice, like she's not being a nice girl. And I think it has, there's, it's alive. Like it's, it's, it's real and it's complicated and it's kind of dirty.

And she's in the mud. And like that is so potent to me in a way that some of this lacks a certain potency. I won't like, I don't really give a shit. I like this song. That's how I feel. Do you know who else I think likes this song? You know who else I think likes this song? I think hearing the line, it's kind of making me wet.

And then no man has ever loved me like you do. I think every galer out there is like, we are back, baby. We're so back. Yeah, although there is like, I have, you know, I think there, again, clearly it's one of my favorite songs. This is not, like, deeply bothering me. And I don't, I don't care if Taylor Swift's songs make her see. like a nice person. There is a little bit of, like,

one of my friends, which I thought was so funny, brought up that she is a little bit doing the Regina George. I couldn't invite her to my party because she was a lesbian. I couldn't have a lesbian in my party where it is a little bit like, I hate you, so you're gay. Right.

And I will acknowledge the unfortunateness of that, but I think it really works. I think the song really works. I like the song really works. and I'm into it. And I love the sort of like, yeah, it's Olivia Rodriguez,

or it's the Pixies, or it's like Weezer, those like chugging guitars. I'm just totally, I'm totally into it. It's one of my favorites. Well, there's a few that we didn't talk about. And I guess,

do we go to what we'd cut to flesh out the list? Yeah. I mean... Can I say, actually, sorry, before we do, can I say one more thing on Max just as collaborator and Shellback?

I think they do. did a really, again, I think so much of this album rollout, like, it just, it set expectations in ways that I don't think were quite right. And that probably has something to do with why some people felt thrown when they listened to the album. But I do think that it was really nice to hear her voice in general a little less swaddled. And I'm not a Jack hater. I'm not an Aaron Hater, but I do think that one of the qualities that had made that music start to feel a bit repetitive is there tends to be a lot around her in both of their, but especially Jack's arrangements. And Max, I think, like this team, they all did it together, I think they edited her in terms of song length or the track number of songs. But I think they edited the production. where you don't, most of these songs don't sound like classic, classic 1989 reputation, Taylor Swift and Max Martin's songs for all of the reasons that we've been talking about.

But there is more space around her than we have heard in a while. And I thought that it made room to notice some really good singing. We've talked a lot about the place that her voice is in, I think especially on that tour, that was a thing that really worked for me. And it just felt, it felt different. Like, it felt different from what we've been hearing. And so that I thought was really successful.

I agree with you. I do think that some of the production didn't capture the delicateness of her voice that we'd gotten used to since folklore. And she has worked extraordinarily hard to get her voice to that place. And it may just be the nature of straight-ahead pop songs that her voice doesn't stand out in its specialness.

It comes across on eldest daughter, and why don't we talk track five before we talk about what we'd cut? Because I think that is the one song that allows for that intimacy and the capture of the nuance that she's worked so hard to bring to the center. I think her voice is great across the record.

It just, if there is a place where it shines, I think it's probably on eldest daughter. And for someone who keeps saying she doesn't scroll and bakes instead. Like, she has a lot of comments on the internet, doesn't she? She has a lot of thoughts. Every joke's just trawling in memes, sad as it seems. Epathy is hot.

I'm going to say something. I know you're sitting down for this. Yeah. Sometimes Taylor Swift lies. She does. And she told us that she lied about not believing in marriage on this song. When I said I don't believe in marriage, that was a lie.

Right. I like it. It's not going to, it's not one of my favorite track fives, but I think it really makes, it actually makes sense, even though it's in that pocket in the middle of the album where I think people felt a little bit like, oh, this sort of goes in a different direction. And I don't understand why some of these songs belong. in this album that we were told was bangers top to bottom. Yes.

But to me, this is really a song about that feeling of like, oh, so much of the currency of cool does, is like tinged by this sense of apathy or like, oh, I don't care. I'm just going to make a joke about it. And, you know, being a little bit of a troll, being unaffected. And this feeling of, you know, she is a Marnie. She is earnest to perhaps to a fault, but also to the creation of her career. And the sort of world built out from that that resonates with so many of her fans. It's like she wears her heart on her sleeve and she is just trying.

She is always trying. and it's sort of not cool to try. Yeah. But there she is. And I, I, I, it's, I don't know. I agree with you that the singing is beautiful. It's not a song that like musically resonated with me deeply, but I really buy the soundtrack.

Yeah, it's a little bit. Right. Right. It's a little bit of that. This was the song where I sort of wondered if the idea of love was more interesting for her to explore than the actual experience of it. Not that it's boring for her, but that it's just been. done because some of her communication on here feels just like innocent and simple and cliche.

And I'm so happy that she feels this way, even if it didn't drive her to say something new. How do you feel about some of the lyrical writing here? Like the, so we all dressed up as wolves and we looked fire? Every eldest daughter was the first lamb to the slaughter. So we all dressed up as wolves and we loved fire. Yeah. Or. Fire, that to me is an example of where that is like one of the most millennial lines on this album.

Yeah. It just is. And it's where, you know, the, there's just a collision between the max structure and math and the way that she writes. And it didn't totally, you can see the seams. Yeah. I don't mind I'm not a bad bitch and this isn't savage. I do think we looked fire, like, hits me strangely. Doesn't feel right.

Let me tell you what for me is the redeeming part of the song and why I would not cut it. I think it's a worthy track five. Me too. We've heard the bridge on Ellis Daughter before. There's a moment when she goes into the We Lie Back. That is right where you left me. And in right where you left me, the chords are like a D, E minor, C, G.

Or that's, those are the chords in eldest daughter. Right where you left me is F, G minor, E flat, B flat. Like, it is the same progression just transposed down two steps. And I love that part of right where you left me. And I'm happy for it to have its rightful place on a track five because I think it was supposed to on Evermore. I think it is the most overlooked song on her most overlooked album. And so for me, that is the redeeming part, not redeeming.

I like eldest daughter. But the reason I love eldest daughter is because I think she just borrowed the chorus from right where you left me and put it in a bridge. Yeah. I like it. It's in the middle. Like if I ranked my favorite songs, it would be in the middle for me. But I agree with you that it's a worthy track five. Well, so opalite did not hit for you then. No, I like Opelite.

Opelite, again, is, it's in that next tier. Like, okay, so I gave you Elizabeth Taylor actually romantic and wood as my three favorites. Yeah. Okay, what comes next? It's probably, it's the fate of Ophelia. It's fate of Ophelia, father figure, opalite in some order. I don't want to go too far because I need to, we need to do cuts, and I don't want to reveal everything. Well, let's talk about cuts then, right?

Because... You want to go first? There's a couple of songs that sit on this album that we haven't talked about. And I'm going to tell you why I don't think any of these songs should be cut later in my conspiracy corner. Oh, boy. But why they can't be cut. You had a very strong reaction to me talking about wish lists, so I'll give you an opportunity to push back on that. but the songs that we haven't actually talked about

that then are on your list are canceled honey and life of a showgirl. I have a sense that you're not going to cut life of a showgirl. Correct. You're softer than a kitten, so you don't know the life of a show girl, babe, and you're never gonna... I mean, these are pretty...

Well, both of these are predictable at this point because we did talk about wish list a little bit. And because I think I have made no bones in the past about the fact that while in almost every area, I think the idea that just because someone is rich and famous, they can't have problems or they can't feel is really silly, I do have a personal, very strong bugaboo of celebrities whining about cancel culture, which is just like, I think, a Fox News barstool sports bucket of absolute

lameness that I'm really bummed. She partook in on this. And that's, that's canceled. Yeah. The British spelling. I will never listen to it again. So let's unpack that because it starts with what to me- By the way, I don't think it's musically anything special either. Well, but I'm just so annoyed that she went there that like it's the most obvious cut to me. Well, let's start with music. Because in the To me, it feels a lot like yellow flicker beat by Lord. From the Hunger Games Mocking Jay soundtrack, like really heavily inspired there.

In terms of reputation, it has a lot of I did something bad in it. And it starts to me with some Nirvana heartshed. shape box. So there is something musically that is familiar from reputation, as to me is the subject matter. It then becomes a really familiar Lord's song with a little Nirvana woven in. But the underlying question, and this is really the thing that you and I texted the most about, is who is this about? and your strong opinion when we were texting right out of the gate was this has got to be

Brittany Mahomes. That's not really true. That's what I texted you is I struggle to come up with a different option. I got to say I don't, for the record, I actually don't really care who it's about. Candice Owens, it turns out. Candice Owens in a podcast said that Blake and Taylor had girl bossed too close to the sun. And that is a line from canceled. And so what I want to challenge you on, I don't think this has to be about one person. Yeah, I agree with that. I think this could be a compilation.

I also, by the way, I think it could have been about Maddie and didn't get made during that point and then got sort of repurposed and let's change some of the details. Well, there's just one read. It depends on what the meaning of the phrase I like. Because, if it's good thing, I like my friends canceled, meaning my friends that I'm with, you know, are canceled. That's who I huddle with. The alternative reading is I like to see my friends

who have betrayed me canceled. I like to see the scandal go to them. And that, to me, you know, I like my whiskey sour. Like, I want to see them. So depending on how you read these lyrics, you could go to, I'm going to huddle up with people who have been, you know, rejected and shunned by society just like me. Or you could go to, I am enjoying watching you suffer.

Hold on. Sorry. I'm just, this is like, it grinds me gears so much. Taylor Swift hasn't been rejected and shunned by society. Like, we have to keep some, there's some, like. I got it. You made the case on the, on the Charlie's song, on actually romantic, that that's a feeling that she has. Sure. But, like, that's not. society. She talks a lot about the parts of her life that are constantly on a microscope, under a microscope. And I think if I feel empathy for this case that she makes, it's that when the world and sections of the world are constantly throwing daggers, even if it's small sections of the world, depending on how you receive those, i.e. her social media feed that she doesn't look at anymore and bakes bread maybe,

or maybe does look at while she's baking bread. Like it would be impossible for Taylor Swift to not feel like the world is against her in some capacity. It would be impossible for Taylor Swift. Parts of the world. Who just went on the largest tour around the world known to man

to not feel like the world is against her. I don't really, I don't think that. I think when the president of the United States and the death threats that she gets and the hate that is, it is so easy to block out the sun. It's hard to be in that position and open your eyes and ears

and not push it back and suppress it and just say, no, the 60,000 people who are in front of me each night are proof. That's the sample, that's the representative sample set. I'm with you. I don't disagree with that.

I don't disagree with that. And I, And I very much agree that being in the spotlight to that degree must be disorienting and really scary in a lot of ways. It's not that I... You have to be in a bubble. I think that the particular invocation of the idea of cancel culture is something that, for instance, Tom Brady, who's, by the way, it's not just the comedians, who's going to go take part with a group of people from the NFL in a flag football thing in Saudi Arabia. to make a regime that cuts people up with bone saws seem more palatable, really like to invoke as a rejoinder to people criticizing them for their actions.

A way to disassociate from accountability for your behavior. It's a way to disassociate from accountability. And to me, again, it's very specific to the banner of cancel. culture is, I think, a concept that has become a political tool to, as you very eloquently just said, disassociate from accountability. And I hope I'm making incredibly clear that this is a, I know that this is a pretty deeply held personal bugaboo. I think a lot of people feel that way, but I do know that this is one that really, really, really grinds my gears. But I think that that is, I think that there are ways, and she has done this, to write articulately and

in ways that don't feel so messy in this way about the experience of living life under a microscope and the ways in which there can be unfairly levied criticism. But for instance, again, like, I think that, you know, there's the actual intent and then there's how people are most likely to receive it. if we're talking about a song that I think a lot of people are going to pretty quickly go, okay, you know, Brittany Mahomes sure wears a lot of Gucci and she's a friend of Taylor's who's been in the spotlight and has been criticized for her politics, which I think are pretty fair to criticize, to write a song that's going to be pretty widely interpreted. as, well, good thing all of that happened

because that just, you know, like, they hate to see us winning is just, I just don't want, I don't want anything to do with it. And that's fine because I don't think I'm ever going to listen to it. I think she might be spiking the football on Blake lively. That's all I'm going to say about this. I think it might be. And the funny thing about Blake is like, Blake has been,

like Blake has you could argue that there's a more legitimate argument that Blake has you know suffered real professional setbacks yes for something where it doesn't seem like she was a for a set of scandals in which at least to me it seems like her crime

was being a pretty bad hang and difficult. Yeah. And somebody else's crime might have been like a much more legitimate crime and yet it seems like

that's falling back more on her. So like, yeah, that could be interesting. I just like truly when someone, it doesn't even have to be this deep. When someone like Taylor Swift starts talking about cancel culture, I shut down. I'm like, I don't like where your head is.

I don't like the people that seem to be around. Like, I'm just out. Well, I don't know. You convinced me this might be about the president, and I got excited, and it wasn't. That's the thing that I'm disappointed in, is that, hey, if we're going to punch back at Charlie, then why don't you take a swing at the guy who's tweeting, essentially the leader of the free world who's tweeting, I hate Taylor Swift. That's the part that was slightly disappointing on this song. I will say that, like, the girl boss stuff, they keep it 100.

They clearly now reference things. Like, if the girl boss is a reference to the Candace Owens thing, keep it 100 is obviously. the numerology, 87 plus 13. But in the aggregate, there is some stuff that's pretty millennial on this album. And it whips sometimes between cringe and stuff that's just outdated that nobody says anymore.

And look, she is almost 36. She's not talking like the kids anymore. But the downstream ramification of that is why I think we've heard a little bit from some of the late teen, early 20s that don't feel as connected to the subject here. And that is okay.

It is an inevitability with an artist who's not going to maintain monocultural reverence forever. But that was one of the big questions coming into this album was really, could Taylor Swift get bigger? And if not, could she, is there an apex where inevitably at some point

there will be a lowering of the altitude of her stardom I can't help but wonder if this album, because it is the first time since debut, that she has shown her age, if it begins the next phase of her career just as she starts the next phase of her life. Yeah.

Next phase of her stardom, not so much her career. Her career is uncontestable, but just the next phase of her stardom. Yeah. So canceled's the one that you shoot off? Cancelled is the one that I would shoot off. but I also don't like Wish List. What about Honey?

I like Honey. Why do you not like Wish List? Is it because you're mad that she's marrying Travis Kelsey? No, I just don't think that it, like, it, what is that song about? Like, other people want other stuff. I don't even care about the, like, the random Real Madrid. Like, that's sort of funny to me. It's the, here's all this stuff that other people want.

want and I just want you. I hope they get what they want. I just want you. Yeah. I do like look. That's what she wants. This is the thing she's been looking for in albums one through 11. No, like bullshit.

Absolute bullshit. She wants, she's a, she's a full human being. She cannot be self-actualized in her entirety by a guy in a basketball hoop. It's not, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, Well, she has just about everything else, Nora. The list of grievances. She can't even, she can't worry about cancel culture because she has everything. And I agree with you.

No, it's not that I think that she can't worry about cancel culture because she has everything. It's because there is a difference between legitimate criticism for an action that deserves it. And for just like an internet mob being an internet mob. And I don't feel like that song succeeds in hitting the nuances of that. And but that is, you think she's lying in Wishlist? I think that she is, I think that she is taking a piece of the pie of how she feels about life right now

and focusing on a narrow sliver. Or maybe even not a narrow sliver. Maybe it's a big sliver, but it's a sliver. I don't think that, like, the list of grievances along the track list of this album, or just the list of things that she's clearly able to feel deeply about, I don't believe that it's contained within a couple kids and a driveway and a basketball hoop.

And I do think that they're like... I don't think that's what she's saying. But I think that in this moment, that's what she wants. What is she saying? This is the reason I don't like this song. What is she saying? I think Taylor Swift is telling you she's going to disappear for a bit and that she's moving into the next phase of her life.

And she has just about everything. That I absolutely agree with. I think this is the next album appetizer. Oh, it's so funny because mine is to the exact same point, but it's a different song. It's the fact that the life of the showgirl ends with a goodbye. This album goes out on a curtain call, and I think that's for a reason.

Well, we'll come back to that. I think it's wish list because I think that's what she wants. I think it's the thing in her life. that she does not have. And I think she, at her current age, is right in the smack dab in the target of when you would start that next phase. And she's ready to do it. And she has told us, she's not playing the Super Bowl. She is not going to tour next summer. This is her husband's last year and her fiance's last year in professional football. And this is the part of being on the road and being the show girl that she hasn't had. She hasn't had that level of normalcy.

It's why she wants everyone to leave them the fuck alone, and they probably won't. Yeah. I'm not sure she's going to get this. It may be unattainable. Here is a thing that I remain conflicted about, because on the one hand, again, like, she's entitled to have a... Best friend who's hot? A best friend who she thinks is hot and a happy, simple, you know, heteronormative bliss. like Taylor Swift is absolutely entitled to that and in a lot of ways like, you know, can I claim that my life is any more transgressive or whatever? Like, probably not. I do think that the transition from, you know, that 1950s shit they want for me to, I want a driveway in a basketball hoop and a couple of kids with my husband on our block where everybody looks the same is not my favorite.

messaging. She told you she lied when she said she didn't believe in marriage. Look, you said at the outset. There's a difference between marriage and... The grass is always greener. She's been in this like whirlwind life. And the one thing that has been unattainable is... Yeah, that's why I'm telling you that I'm conflicted about it.

That's why I'm telling you that I'm conflicted about it. Of the thousands of people who were in front of her every night who got to go home to their houses that they live in on the reg who, who, and their, they're, or significant others or their spouses who they love and the family unit that they've built up, right? Meanwhile, she is quite literally in a small family business. She's told the story of her brother and her mother going to help regain, we know, regain her rights. We know the involvement of her dad. You know, she's got the sort of nuclear family where she's still sort of

frozen in the parent-child construct that now you can imagine it must look wonderful to think about actually having that for herself. It's in her face every night. I totally get that. And again, that's why I'm telling you, I feel a little conflicted about this. I do, I cannot help, but feel a little bit like, and I don't mean to be like, think of the children. But she is, she is this, this symbol of a type of femininity. She's one of the most famous women in the world.

And I guess I think there has to be something that, can encapsulate a deeply filling relationship, safety, comfort, happiness, a more simple life than she's been leading. And that isn't quite... Taylor Swift...

What do you want from this woman? I don't know. No, I'm really thinking about that. I'm really thinking about that. I guess I just do... Some of this comes off a little to you know what would be more meaningful than all that I've already accomplished in my life is a white picket fence. What's wrong with that? I think that's exactly what somebody in her position.

Because it's a depiction of life that is... It's the plot of Hannah Montana for fuck's sake. Well, yeah. And she loved that show. I think Taylor Swift, at 35 years old, can handle a little bit more nuance and complexity than that. I'm not... I'm just telling you... nuance and complexity. We have not seen her at a Chiefs game this fall, and it isn't, you know, let's see. But I think the behind the scenes part of being the biggest star in the world, that is the life of a showgirl and that the behind the scenes part of this that we don't get

full access to here is really fucking hard. And it comes with toe adjusters or toe separators, and it comes with death threats. And it comes with an insip, like just a incipient, loneliness that eats at her because even in this relationship as she was recording this album running around Europe, it was an affair where he was having to surprise her in Dublin and come to Australia. And yeah, maybe jet lag is a choice, but it's still a thing. And just longing for what is so antithetical to this Hamilton-esque way in which she works, longing for rest. I want to give it to her, man. I want to give her. the rest. I want to give her the rest. It's, yeah. And a home. A rest and a home. But that's not,

that's not what this song is about. At least to me, that's not what this communicates. You just want the kids to look like Taylor, not Travis. Honey, you have no problem with. That's not it. That's not it. That's not it. You have no problem with honey. I like honey. I think it's, I think it's sweet. I think it's, I think it of validates the endearing language of Travis Kelsey. I think it's, I think it's homage to... Yeah, I think that's a really cute way to think about it. I think that's what it is. It's a bit of an homage to the one on folklore with the piano stuff. Yeah. And I think, you know, it's sort of a rethinking and it's sort of like all those things that sort of bother you when other people do it and then you love someone and they do something that's objectively the same and suddenly you love it. Like, I think that's, I'm

I think it's really sweet and I think it's a pretty song. I think it's sweet too. It's the one that I would have cut because I don't think you need it on this album to sort of go all the way through and understand where her mind is in this moment. I think she's articulated that sentiment on Opelite and a few other songs, but I wouldn't cut any of them. And that probably gets me to tell you what my Easter Egg Conspiracy Corner thing is. Wait, hold on.

Can I say one nice thing? about wish list. Please do. What I do like is when she says, tell them to leave us the fuck alone and they do. And then the little background, wow. Like I do think that that really communicates like how, how unimaginable it is to her that anyone would leave her the fuck alone. And I think that's a great little detail. I still would blast the song into the sun.

But I just want to say one nice thing. Well, you can't. And the reason that you can't is because there are 12 songs on this album. And she has made 12 albums. And just like she aligned the song title of each of the songs on this album to fit into the stage on the era's tour, each of these songs represents an era. And you can go through both in the way that they reference a previous era or a song from a previous album and assign them from debut all the way through tortured poets and then

yes to life of a showgirl okay wait so let's do it yes i will so tortured poets to me is the fate of ophelia because it literally starts like the end of an errand song and there's a there's a part where she uses the word sanity it really the voices and the the um there's sort of some spooky reverb stuff that goes back to the who's afraid of little old me vocal. So I think you have to tuck that there. I think you have to give eldest daughter to Evermore because of the right where you left me piece that gets lifted. I put father figure in with lover because it's the reincarnation of the man,

but I know that you think that's rep. I just have a hard time not putting canceled in reputation. No, no, I said Elizabeth Taylor has rep. And cancel does sound like, cancel sounds like chat GPT did reputation. but it does sound like reputation. But there it is. I think would you have to put in 1989 because it's basically shake it off

but it also has the melody from blank space? I put Ruin the Friendship in debut and that's why Ruin the Friendship is on this album. She needed something that went back to that time. Yeah. So that leaves you, what do you do with fearless, speak now, red folklore?

I put wish list on Midnights because it's super glitchy. Yeah. I think for me, I put Elizabeth Taylor in folklore only because I think Elizabeth Taylor is Rebecca Harkness from Las Great American Dynasty.

Yeah. Rebecca gave up on whatever. Flew in all the bitch pack friends from the city. So then you've got to figure out what you're going to do with Opalite, what you're going to do with actually romantic, what you're going to do with honey. Because I think life of the showgirl is life of the showgirl.

Yeah. I put... Actually, romantic is kind of... I know we've used a reputation, but actually romantic is a little bit. This is why we can't have nice things. It is, but it's also a little bit of a Haley Williams kind of want to be rocker.

And so I put it in Speak Now, because, like, you could see her, like, that was that air. era of, right, fall-up, she did the fallout boy song. She did all that stuff. Like, she was really trying to rock and that's what this is. So that left for me. Yes, the speak now song, Charlie X-EX is talking about me behind my back and it's making me wet. Listen, you have to bend a few things. You can play this game at home if you want and work it through. But like it is here. So I ended up with fearless. Well, in speak now actually, speak now is in some ways like her most vicious.

album. Like, speak now takes better than revenge. No prisoners. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, yeah. There's something to that. That's why I went there. So then I have to decide between honey and opalite Fearless and Red.

And I put Opalite on red because it is, there's so much that it sort of straddles a couple of genres and it is a sort of quintessential Mac song. And I put Honey on Fearless because it's, honey is yellow and that's the color I think about with Fearless.

But there's a sweetness to it. Appreciate the honesty. Yeah, I mean, because like, yeah, there's a little bit of, you could see a stripped down version ending up on Fearless. Anyway, that's my conspiracy theory is that not only are you supposed to arrange these things in order to make the era stage, but that each one of these songs in its own way has a callback to an album and an era, and that they are therefore, you cannot cut one because this is not just the era's tour by visual,

but by music. I love it. I love it. I mean, I wonder if that is an explicit thing, but definitively, some of the slight all over the placeness of this album, although I think there are threads where it feels cohesive enough to me.

Yeah. It comes from doing this wall on a tour that weaves through all of her eras. surrounded by her entire catalog as she's creating that, and it seeps into a bunch of different corners in a bunch of different ways. So I think that totally makes sense. Can I give you some conspiracy corners

that have now definitively been proven not right? Yes. I just want to keep, like, for those of us who have permanent clown-noses is a fixed store face, I want to keep it running tally. Sourdough 47. Not doing the Super Bowl.

No. No. The orange door Had nothing to do with karma The alleged lost album Or just heading to the showgirl era Yeah Do you think orange being the blending of red and yellow

Which are the Chief's colors is a possibility? I guess so I honestly think that she is running out of colors Like this is honestly I think this a little bit about Because I think a lot of people were A little bit like Oh I like the album

But what was all of the show girl like what were all these Bob Mackey costumes for it doesn't really, to me? You know why? Because she kind of liked the way she looked in the photo shoot. She was like, I'm engaged and I can take some really hot photos and that's awesome. That's what I think too. You go, girl. The other thing that I think is that like a lover aesthetic would probably make the most sense for a lot of this, you know, pink skies and fluffy romance. And she's done that already.

Opelite. Right, exactly. Now the sky is opalite. A lover sky could easily in a different world have been an opalite sky. And that just wasn't available. So I think that's a little, like, some of these things are not, she is a mastermind, but sometimes practicality does just sneak in there.

All the countdowns just ended, you know, vinyl's merch, whatever, we talked about that. The song titles in order centered on the page does look like the era's stage, but like that's just a fun coincidence. Although you have the conspiracy corner that it's telling you that it's... She's...

It's not a fun coincidence. She said it took them a while to figure that out, but that was one of the Easter eggs. No, I know. I just mean that it's not... Right. I don't mean that it was unintentional.

I just mean that it's... Got it, got it, got it. You know, it doesn't really... I've taken a step way further down the tin hat rabbit. I know, and I love that. I love that. It's normally your job.

Nothing has happened with reputation... No. Yet. I will... I do feel like, we have to say, we are recording this before the standby. on the tag guard. We know it's not going to be Taylor

in Austin City Limits with Sabrina. Do we know this? You know this. We know this. It could be SNL. That seems to be the NBC media thing that she's done. So it seems like she's doing Fallon,

she's doing Seth Myers. When you say SNL, because SNL is coming back tonight with Bad Bunny and Doja Cat. Bad Bunny. So she would do a cameo. Maybe they reprised Domingo with one of her songs. That's what... Or she introses, she introses Doja or she does something.

She just stands there. She's ladies and gentlemen, Doja Cat. Something like that. Interesting. A funny sketch is probably more likely. That's what I would. I think, I, I hope they do a new Domingo. Bad Bunny has, has had a Domingo cameo before. And they add Taylor to the mix of that. I think that would be really fun. By the time people are listening to this, they'll probably know what happened. The whole reputation re-record is out, including the vault, and we're doing absolute back force. Can I tell you? I was so, I was not clowning at all. I was being so good. And then she did the capitalization games. And she changed the Apple music logo to have those purple glitter cracks in it. And you go back to the letter about the Masters. And she says that she, you know, doesn't think the reputation can be improved on, but she loves, she does love the vault and that there will be a time for those to hatch.

Right. And those cracks looked so much like a cracking egg. I started to get pulled in. I started to get pulled in. Can I tell you something? I bought a ticket to go to the movie. Yeah. I wasn't going to go.

And then I bought a ticket. And it was like the back right seat in the theater. And it was one seat. and then it was for 2 o'clock on Friday. And then all the people who went early started posting videos to social media. And so I felt like, A, I got all the content. B, in all those videos, people are screaming like they're watching a horror movie. Like there was a lot of audience participation that I wasn't prepared for.

Which she encouraged, which I like. And so then I was like, do I want? want to be the weirdo one dude and the back right part of the theater for this thing. You get so nervous about this. No. And so I didn't go. I paid the $15 to AMC. You're welcome. You know, it seemed like it was a fun party and the people who went had a good time. The price was not outrageous at all. I wish I had my $15 back, but I'll be okay. And, you know, I think at the end of the day, that was a good time thing. Actually, that's really wonderful. I think, like, for all of my

somewhere between apathy and criticism of all the countdowns being opportunities to buy by buy and the plastic cardigan and yada yada yada yada I think doing something that takes people out away from their screens and puts them in a real environment together to appreciate something together

I think that's lovely I think that's great yeah in a sanctioned way two thumbs up for that concept good job by them but I just will remind everybody like we know this, there is a, there is footage from that whole summer somewhere. And whether we're going to get that Thanksgiving or her birthday or sometime next year or tonight for the standby, that would surprise me because she's trying to drive people into theaters.

But so that the movie that she directs gets put in as many screens as possible. She's such a great business. Did you hear on, I guess it was Graham Norton or something where she was like, you know, we didn't know they were going to do these friendship bracelets. Otherwise, I would have invested in beads. Like, she's always thinking. She's just always thinking. She's probably so mad about that. That probably actually keeps her up at night. Dad, why didn't we invest in beads? Like, we should have seen this coming. She's the best. Oh, I love it. Peak Taylor. Okay. I have a few. One, the short description of this album that you could make of, I might move to Ohio, but first I have a list of grievances that I would like to share.

That's incredibly Taylor Swift to me. Okay. No offense to Ohio. Some offense to Ohio. Two, the total red herring of a rollout is becoming a little bit of a tradition. Yeah. Yeah, it is. Yes.

And so the, you know, we talked about it. The showgirl themes I do. I think it was just an opportunity to take some great photos and more power to her. Yes. And they are great photos. So. But I think that that has become such a Taylor tradition. What about you?

I think one of the funniest parts of the album is on actually romantic where she says it's actually lovely. And it's honestly lovely. She uses those words. And then later on Honey, she says, when anyone called me lovely, they were finding ways not to praise me. So she tells you exactly what she was thinking. Yeah.

Peak Taylor writing, Easter egging, all of it wrapped up into one. That's great. That's a great Easter egg. So we talked a little bit about, you said that next album appetizer was kind of wish list. Yep.

I think the same thing about the goodbye at the end of the life of a show girl. Like, do you think that she is basically saying like, I need to take a break? I'm going to go away for a bit. Yes. I think she's ready for the driveway and the kids who look like some combination of her and Travis. Yeah, I do too. I do too. Now, look, I think her life has been pretty breakneck for a long time.

I do think that it's an open-ended question of what happens. happens when she does chill out and does start doing that. Yeah, like a month into that, it might be like entirely different. But I'm thrilled if she gets to a place where she doesn't have to be on tour flying around the world. And she's, you know, not planning the wedding. And she's not spending a bunch of time trying to figure out, you know, whether there's somebody for her in the world. And she has just space and time. And there's a guitar lying on the floor.

and there's a piano right there. And she actually has space to be bored and focused on the craft of songwriting in that moment to communicate something with a little bit more depth than Wood. And I really like Wood. Thank you for Wood. It's great. Thank you for Wood, Taylor. It's, yeah, way to go, guys. But as you said on the ringer, congrats on the sex.

Bravo. But I think it is then this human being has to work. She is driven in that way. She has to create. But let's let her get bored and find that out. You know, because I think it's been a while since that happened. The next time that she creates, I want it to be the thing, not a thing that she's doing with her spare time. And that's what I think she probably recognizes and is telling us in the next album appetizer.

And also, by the way, like, again, the reception of Taylor Swift positive negative, it tends to be so high stakes in the tenor with which people tend to talk about her. Let's remember that this in the grand scheme of things, assuming that she eventually does continue to create and put out music and make another album, this is going to be the album before TS-13. Right. Which one can only assume will be a very special thing to her. And this, you know, does that make this sort of a transitional album? Does it make it a little bit of a palette cleanser?

Like, I don't know. But I think it's worth remembering that this is actually the thing that comes before something that eventually, I imagine she will take very, very seriously. And I do think that there's a little bit of maybe a relationship between the breeziness of this album, the sort of comfort food digestibility of it and what it eventually in due time is likely to be setting up.

Is there a best lyric on this record? I mean, I take her at her word that it's, I pay the check before it kisses the mahogany grain. When the author herself tells me that that's the best thing she wrote on this record, I think I take it at face value. That was the thing she was most proud of. And rightly so. I like that,

I think that some of the best, some of the best lyrical writing in the same quill pen-e vein of a lot of the recent stuff, I think is on father figure. And so that makes sense to me. And obviously we know that that's really important to her. So it makes sense to me that that's her favorite lyric. I really love, there's a few that I really love. I love the beginning, the opalite, I had a bad habit of missing lovers past.

My brother used to call it eating out of the trash. I love that so much. And it's so specific. Like there's, there are some, I don't mean to be like sandwiching a criticism inside of a compliment. Because I'm talking about songs that I like. But there is, there are stanzas in favor. of Ophelia, like all that time I sat alone in my tower, you were just honing your powers. Now I can see it all. I get what, I get the sentiment, but it's a sentiment. It's sort of, that's, that's what it is.

Yeah. Whereas my brother used to call it eating out of the trash. Like, there's a whole world within that line. There's, there's a relationship between two siblings. There's a relationship history for her. There's so much to that in one line. And I think that's very, that's Taylor with her fastball. So I love that one. His love with the key that opened my, was the key that opened my thighs is not. Broadwood tree, it ain't hard to see his love was the key that opened my thighs. If I chose something from wood, it would be new heights of manhood. That's crazy. Hey. It's just crazy she did that. But I also do, I love that little detail of, I don't know, I don't, to catch the bouquet for someone I could trust. Just kidding.

To know a hard rock is... Yeah, is on the way. That was where I was like, what are we doing here? She really went there. Girls, I don't need to catch the bouquet. To know a hard rock. She really, really went there. Just get it all out.

Just get it out. I think we've gotten it all out. So we just need to grade the album. Yeah. You want me to go first? Yeah. I gave it a B. Wow.

Is that wow? It's just it's a B. It's good. It's fine. I thought you were going to go, I thought you were going to go higher than that. I had a really good time. I'm proud of you for giving it that grade

because that is exactly what I gave it. I gave it a B. I think the more that you listen to it, the better it's going to get. I think it is reputation-esque in that way. I think the difference is that reputation- Okay. Every time you say that, I do feel compelled to just stand on my high horse of I liked reputation the first time I heard.

Great. You get to say, I told you so. I just think for a lot of people, their first interaction with it was complicated. And I think a lot of people's first interaction with this has been complicated. But I think that there are certain broader swaths of people who just aren't going to like this record. And I think it's because they probably, A, from a generational perspective, feel a little bit separate from the perspective that when she does choose to write deeply is communicated on this record, or that some of the ways in which she's communicating the state of joy that she's in feel a little bit cringy or past their moment in the language that she uses. So I think there's some generational stuff. I also think there's some people who came into this fan base around Fokler and Evermore

that aren't rooted in all of the bricks of the temple. And if you think about this album on a totally standalone basis, I'm not sure I'd even give it a B, but the fact that this woman 12 albums in still has something to contribute and can still make an album that sounds and feels like this, I think is incredibly impressive and do with that what you will.

But in the temple, it fits. It has purpose, and it moves. and it moves forward, I think, into another phase of her stardom, another phase of her creativity, and definitely another phase of her life. And so for that reason, I gave it a B. I do not think that it has a hit that is going to really be replayed and put up in the pantheon of Taylor Swift all timers. There is not a style on this.

There is not, you know, we can go through the whole list of songs that there's not a cruel summer, right? There's not. But in the aggregate, I think it, if its job was to create that hit, then the record didn't do that. If the job was to move her into this next phase of life and career, I think it accomplishes that. And I am so happy for the woman who writes like she's running out of time to finally have some time to write. This has been every single album, Taylor Swift. I'm Nora Pinciotti. As always, he is Nathan Hubbard. Thank you so much to Kai MacMullen on a Saturday, no less, for producing this episode. And to you for listening, we will have much more on the life of a show girl. Stay tuned. We'll be in touch. Thanks again.