Every Single Album - ‘The Life of a Showgirl’: Everything We Know (and Are Predicting) About TS12

Episode Date: August 14, 2025

Nora and Nathan are breaking down a big week of Taylor Swift news. They talk about the lead-up to the announcement of her new album, her appearance on the New Heights podcast, and everything we learned from it, and speculate as to what ‘The Life of a Showgirl’ could sound like. Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to a very special late-night edition of every single album. I'm Nora Prynciotti. He's Nathan Hubbard. It won't necessarily be late at night when you listen to this episode when it comes out. But it's late at night right now. It's a little after 9 o'clock on the East Coast. Nathan and I just watched all two hours and change, or in Nathan's case, up until the YouTube feed kicked him off,

of the new heights podcast. I'm homicidal. With Taylor Swift. Sentences. We didn't know we would have reason to say in this or any other lifetime. How you feeling, Nathan? But we're getting a new album. We just got a new podcast.

We've got a new album. I mean, that's the key, Nora. And you and I have largely kept our distance from one another as we do in these large Taylor moments, right? we have had a little back and forth with the three of us, Yumi and producer Kaya. And I'm going to be honest, like there was, I think if I'm being honest,

for about 48 hours you and I had the ick. If I can speak for you, you can cancel that for yourself. But I think you and I were at least concerned about what we were going to get from this podcast because it felt like the rollout suddenly was a little bit rushed. There were some rumblings on Friday.

I texted you and Kai offline and said, I am of the opinion that we're going to get an album in the fourth quarter. And then things really sped up. The website was weird. Everything was weird. We got the new heights clips. The clips they picked felt like maybe it was just going to be a, I don't know.

I don't know what it felt like. But that was, I think, if I'm just like, That was two hours of incredible insight into one of the great artists of our generation and her relationship and her boyfriend who took pictures like he was at a prom. He's like the son of a Colombian cocaine kingpin prom photos. Not 48 hours ago they came out. But boy, his brother's a good interviewer. His interviewer subject was incredible. She was insightful.

She was equal parts brilliant and vulnerable and all of the things about Taylor Swift that infatuate you with her and drive you crazy about her. It was wonderful. Wow. I don't know. So you had such a different experience of that that I did. Holy shit. Tell me. Wait, yeah.

So let's go back to the beginning. So it's Monday. Yes, like we've started to go, okay, there's some real rumblings here. There have been even going back a few weeks. We talked about that. It really is starting to seem like there's an album in the can and we're going to learn about something sometime soon. But of course, it's Taylor. Like, you never know. I'm going, oh gosh, what if this countdown? It's going to hit zero and it's going to be like August merch and I'm going to feel so silly. But at a certain point, we start to feel like it's definitely. definitely real. And you're totally right. I was, I was not, I was in two different camps on expectations for the album and the feelings about how the rollout seemed to be taking on certain characteristics because I will. You mean they're selling you a lot of vinyl right out of the gate. Well, they're selling a lot of vinyl. There's the pre-pre-order thing on the website. There's also, but I also, and I'm just going to come out and say this, I saw a lot of the leaked material. I was interested and like I did. Um, and so one of the things that has stood out to me

from the beginning and Taylor talked about this and we'll talk about it is that we're getting some things that I know you and I and a lot of fans have like, we've prayed for times like these. Max Martin has like re-entered the chat. It seems fun, upbeat. Like there's just so many things that I'm so excited about. And that I had started to, you know, you saw the, some of the, um, the vinyl stuff had who the collaborators were. And so I was going, wait a second, this could be so cool. If this is real, I'm so excited.

And yes, then there was this tone of the rollout is going to be the Taylor and Travis show, which obviously a lot of people really like. I, as a person who is a lot more interested in Taylor Swift than Travis Kelsey, tend to be like, I don't really need this appendage. and this is like her moment in her space and I don't understand why it needs to be

about this man so much. Do you understand that now? Do I understand it? Here's what I can say. I don't know that like, I don't, I feel like she sort of got on there and did some stump speaking

that like we've mostly heard her do. Right. But I just thought it was really fun. Like I don't know that I would say, No, I'm not, you and I had the same experience and that I had a really good time. I just, insightful is not where I would lead. Really fun is where I would lead.

Yeah, like, what did you? Nora, you saw all of the psychology of this woman on display, on camera. Like, she is so competitive that her father wakes up from quadruple bypass and says we're a competitive family. That was very funny. But she cannot take a compliment from the biggest fan of hers who's ever existed.

And I know we're going to talk about the GQ thing. And I think you have to read the GQ article to contextualize this week. And I know there's a lot of ick and a lot of weird stuff in there. But I'm going to tell you that my biggest takeaway from that was this guy is confidently and unapologetically. And without, I just, I think it is as honestly proud. of her and in love with her as he possibly could be. And he sat there the whole interview and had no point because Jason Kelsey, it turns out,

is Oprah fucking Winfrey? And, like, interviewed her in, you know, the way it should have been. And his job there was to cheer, but she could not take a compliment from him, which is this dichotomy that continues to drive this human being to make stuff when every other artist on the planet, for the most part,

at this level of success would have no drive, no reason to keep going, nothing to push them. And it was all on display tonight. I'm laughing so hard that that's what was going through your head. It's totally reasonable.

I just was like, yeah, I know Taylor Swift is really, really competitive. L.O.L. She's making so much bread. And you mean actual bread, not just money from the pre-orders that are flowing through right now.

Blueberry lemon sourdough. My girl, Taylor Swift, who do you think was first? Was it Pam Anderson or Taylor Swift who made the bread? Because Liam Neeson and Travis Kelsey have been mesmerized by probably one of the biggest female stars of the 80s and now one of the biggest female stars of the 2000s by fucking sourdough bread. That's your move, ladies.

It's really funny that like, because Taylor Swift did, of course, famously write and release two albums during the pandemic that like she clearly has adopted everybody's COVID hobby several years late because she was doing something else at that time. I loved the bread. I will say that I've found a certain kinship with Travis that I didn't feel before

as a fellow lover of otters. Okay. I love otters. He loves otters. I love otters so much. They're my favorite animal. Can we just talk about, that line.

The ridiculousness of that line. I love otters? I want a wild otter? No. That was a smokescreen. I think that was a smokescreen. Because what she said was, I'm not an online person. Right? She's like, really all I...

Well, that's a lie. Well, so that's this thing that goes through the entirety of this podcast is her telling us that she's not an online person. and saying, I really only get online to like look at, you know, the, the otter videos that Travis shows me. Meanwhile, today she was highlighting, like, the crazy fucking, like, conspiracy theory videos about how the pumpkins in the ERAs tour are sentient. And, like, all of the craziest Easter egg shit just to stir people up today. she was online today liking people's tweets, you know, whatever.

Like Evermore 6-9-420s tweets about this shit all day long. It is, it drives me insane. And it is also brilliant. But the otter thing is what put me over the edge. That's where I was like, I just can't take it anymore. She's super online. She's the most online person we know. It's her brilliance.

Yeah, but I look, I think it can be, I tease when I say that's a lie. because I think it can be true and not true, right? Like the difference between... She's clearly blocked some stuff out. Yes, I think she blocks actually mountains and eons and oceans of stuff out. Right. She's blocked the Instagram comments for 10 years was a big statement. Well, is that a statement or is that just true?

But it's just a thing that happened. Yeah, but the Tay lurking plus how she blocks stuff out is the interesting dichotomy, right? Like, what actually gets through? even for Travis Kelsey, it was hard for him to get through. He thought because he knew that elevator girl. Clearly for Jason, Jason's not filtering shit. No. That guy has got to get offline.

I mean, he's dyed his beard. We've not heard why he dyed his beard. He died his beard because he was going to have Taylor Swift on his podcast. And he wanted to spruce things up a little bit. Well, if spruising things up means breaking into your home with a small hatchet, then that's what he looks like he's going to do with that dyed beard right now. But he was good at this. I just, she is at, like, I think she's figured out a way to manage her life, right?

And the normalcy that they talked about of their relationship is clearly a thing that they've created by building a bubble around them that doesn't let in the outside stuff. And yet, she has ways of keeping the finger on the pulses she talked about. One of the most incredible things she said tonight. And she put on a business lesson tonight in a few small sentences, but they were very powerful, right? The first sentence about her business, she said, my business is making music and taking care of my fans. She said, I have ways of monitoring what they want and taking care of them. She said that after telling us that she's blocked Instagram comments, she's not really online, she has hobbies in the 1700s.

Like, she has found a way to pierce the veil without others piercing the veil back. at her. It's a one-way mirror, not a two-way mirror. That was fascinating. And then the last piece was think of your energy as it is expensive. Not everyone can afford it. Not everyone can afford the capital for you to care about it. So she has some mental model for what she lets in and what she doesn't. And that to me was like, you just don't hear that kind of thinking and structure from unbelievably famous people usually. I think how deftly she balances those things is impressive. I just, I feel like I'm like athletes too.

You definitely hear all the time be like, you know, you protect your peace, you block out the noise, you don't take criticism from anyone you wouldn't take advice from. Like all of those sort of like. But even Travis in the GQ article. talks about how he wants to please people and how it gets to him and he listens. What she said tonight is I'm able to know what people want

without hearing what everybody says. Yeah, I mean, I think to like actually be able to do that is unbelievably rare. That's all I'm saying. And I do think that, I mean, like to me, the juxtaposition of I'm not online with here is, this album that like she is selling the living daylights out of like this is the best thing I've ever done this is like I've held this to the highest standard like I had she went all in on

this tonight she went so far all in on it only 12 songs oh only 12 songs it is with seems like she might have listened to us say that maybe we should put jack and Aaron on ice just for just for now not for long term. Or anybody. Like, us, anybody, right? Like, it is a, it is a, if you took the core criticisms of tortured poets. Everybody. Exactly. It was what she said on the podcast tonight. Right. She vomited it all up. And if you took the things that people said, you know, I miss these parts of Taylor's old music, things that she's done in the past, or I'm looking for something new, and I think that she would be more, if she could be more tightly structured,

a little bit less freewheeling in some of the lyrics, maybe take a break from Jack and Aaron Dessner. Chloe, Sam, Sophia Marcus, like, it's enough already. Like, can we tighten this thing up? And that end the, you know, 36 songs. And, oh, by the way, there's a 3 a.m. edition, which, by the way, we're going to have to have, like, a 10-second conversation about if,

we actually believe her. Yeah, I believe her. You believe her that it's 12 songs and 12 songs only. I think that's part of this thing. She said it directly and she don't lie. She will obfuscate. She will misdirect. She does not lie.

And what she said is there's no more stuff. Part of the thing with tortured poets was you got all the way to the end and it's like, what the fuck is this song now? This song sounds like song 26 sounds like song 23. And it doesn't, they are unique things. It's just that. You know, it was a big project that she had to get out. Well, she got it out. And this was tight. I'm going back to the people that she called her mentors. I know. That really stuck out. Not even her mentors. She said my mentor, Max Martin.

Yeah. We are adults now. We know what we're doing. And I feel like we can kill it. If just the three of us for the first time ever, get in the studio and do it. And so fuck you, T-Swizzle Jet Tracker. I'm going to. going to find my way to fly to Sweden on these off weekends and I'm going to do it and we're going to get in a studio and we're going to make this record and it's going to encapsulate all the joy, but we're going to do 12 songs, 12 songs only, and every single one is going to make this giant meat thermos to my left jiggle with excitement and mission accomplished apparently. Meat thermos? What am I supposed to do with meat thermos? Yeah, so Travis. Not her words.

Travis. Dear Travis. Here's what I got to say, I thought that his role where he just kind of like, Jason and Taylor had a conversation. And Travis cradled the album like a baby. And Travis gave a definition of the word esoteric that is still rattling around in my head. That she accepted it. I'm sorry. but the Taylor Swift Webster's Dictionary says yes.

Yeah, the Taylor Swift Webster's Dictionary wanted to move on. The hard edits after things were so funny on this. They were so fucking funny. It like, she's like, I mean, and people were like, what would we talk about, hard edit? I just found, but I really, I do, sorry, not to make this about me, but I did find, I found a level of charm and fun and not feeling like here is my man boyfriend being shoved down my throat in a way from that pod that I feel like usually has not always like oftentimes. But you didn't believe after her Grammy speech in which she said almost verbatim. what you just described him as?

No, it's not the Grammy speech. I like the Grammy speech. I just, like, I was, I just was pleasantly surprised that I think sometimes I'm looking for the Taylor Swift show and then I get the Taylor and Travis show and then I'm like, well, that's not, it's not really why I'm here, guys.

And somehow they managed to pull off on his podcast, it not feeling like that. And I, like, I'm, I'm thrilled. There was large level concern, and I think understandably so from the clips that they released in advance, that you might walk away from this being like, wait a minute, is Taylor Swift's personality now her boyfriend? And man, I didn't get that.

Did you? No, no. No, I actually really didn't. I mean, I get some of the like, I do. Yeah, no, I didn't. And I can say that without, while also saying that I. get a little bit more of like, like, I don't know.

It just seems like she's like, like, LOL, this caveman guy's kind of fun. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, that's fine. That's great. Yeah.

And I don't like... What do you feel like you learned about them tonight? Like what, did you learn anything that you didn't expect? Yeah. What, was there like a, oh, moment? I think it was fun to,

like, I do think you get how much. they laugh. I do think... He's hilarious for her. He's very funny. I will, like, so I don't want to be... I really, like, again,

my point being, I'm not here to talk about Travis Kelsey, and I don't want to be sort of doing that anyway. You know, there was a, you know, how to ball,

I know Aristotle quality to some of the conversation. It was 100% the most of, you know how to ball. I know Aristotle conversation. I mean, I literally tweeted that

because it was like, whoa. There was some non sequiturs from our guy, Traff. There were a few moments for us. Like, Traff, she's getting the good stuff.

Shush. Like, I know that you... Right, like, she was talking and also, she wasn't talking about what you are

suddenly talking about. Yeah. And I think, but like, I think it's because Jason, Jason seems to know what's going on. Like, Jason seems to...

And you know that he loves his brother. and so it's like I don't know I felt a little bit of a... Do you believe that he didn't know about the album? That's what they said. They said that Jason had no idea they were going to reveal.

No, he definitely hadn't heard it. No, she said she wouldn't play it for him. Yeah. But I heard them say that Jason had not, did not know that they were going to announce this with new news. Now, maybe he had a sense because they'd said,

like as of when? I think at the podcast. podcast? Like when they hit play. I don't really believe that, frankly. That's what I'm asking. That's what I'm asking. I don't know. But no, because don't you think that somebody would like, don't you, so they were not supposed to come back this early. And Taylor goes, I want to come on the podcast. Right. You don't think somebody's going to be like, why? Although I guess if, if, if, preseason before it gets crazy, want to set up what's going to happen for the next six months that everyone's going to be watching.

I'm a fan of the show. I, like, laugh so hard seeing you guys do this. I wanted to be part of it. I mean... I'm in the background all the time. I'm not wearing the AirPods, so I can't hear what everyone else is saying. I just hear Travis being like,

new news. So let me figure out what this actually about. Can I do it? And then, of course, if Taylor Swift is willing to come on your podcast. I mean, I don't. It's a little bit like when Miley called us. By the way, Taylor, if you're doing podcasts now,

we're available. Yeah, just to be clear, please listen to the Miley Pod. But yeah, when we put the phone down and then we were like, you know what, we'll get back to you. And then you and I talked for like an hour and a half. I screamed. I was screaming a lot. But yeah, I guess now you've talked to me into it.

I believe that he could have not known. Yeah. I mean, look, I want to know sort of really. I know this isn't about Travis, but it is about Travis because it relates to what we're going to get from this album, which, as she has said, is like 12 intentional songs that capture exactly where she was in that summer of European love, where she was in the best mental and candidly, I guess according to Travis and Taylor tonight,

physical shape that she's ever been in in her life. And her life had pivoted from this vomiting of real pain and real, like, desolation and despair and loneliness that comes through the ending of multiple relationships that are documented on tortured poets, I think, to where she was in that moment, which was like the possibility of hope and love and all of the things that she describes about him, right?

And so I want to ask you about Travis because the thing that I took from that GQ piece was the part where the writer describes his pride in her as being sort of a new and I think important masculinity, which is not protective, not jealous, but that genuine Midwest pride that he doesn't even have in himself, which, by the way, Taylor displayed the same thing tonight. She could not take a fucking compliment to spare her life tonight, but she was happy to hype up Travis and, you know, right? She could take some. She just was so self-deprecating about her football throwing and her

athletic ability and all this stuff, right? And I just would say, yeah, she took a few. which was like she took the ones where he, you know, his sort of doe-eyed thing about seeing her on stage. No, I think she'll take a compliment about her music. She just was like, no, I need you guys to understand that I'm not an athlete and I also don't care. All right. I think it's,

I think that there is a little bit of a schism in her, which is she's extremely confident. She's extremely competitive. And she has the insecurities that all of us feel that even the great ones feel, which make it hard for her to. accept some of that greatness and also make her incredibly self-critical and that ultimately fuel the drive that has created this. So my point of all of this is just like Travis came out of that to me sounding like an unbelievably dedicated and loving and supportive person who's not doing it

because it's good for his career, which a lot of people have suggested in those quiet moments, who's not doing it because he's obsessed with having somebody famous in his life, but because he like really loves and supports Taylor Swift. And I did come away tonight. And I was worried coming in from the clips, but I did come away tonight feeling like, yeah, it's all consistent. Like, as she said, green flags across the board.

Like this is a great partner for the most famous, one of the most famous women on the planet. This is the part that starts to kind of make me feel a little bit of a nails on the chalkboard thing. Because I, like, it's not. that I don't, I don't know. Like, I just don't know the answer. I, I have this.

What's the doubt? It's the Boas snakes and the, and the, and the water cannon riding the water cannon, 25 feet in the air, pictures. No, it's that I don't, it's that I don't know her and I don't know him. And like, I think, like, I think, why? But they're putting themselves out there for, why?

For commerce, for judgment, for what? So is the idea that if they're putting themselves out there, and the story that they're telling is like happiness and great relationship. Like I'm not saying that I doubt any of that. I just like, to me, that is the type of territory that I always am like, like I'm just never going to know. And that's not why I'm interested in this person. And the moments, the moments when this particular.

relationship, like, draws people in to do that much more than others are when I go, like, I'm, yeah. It's not that I'm suspicious. It's that I'm like, I just don't know. Like, I, I, we all thought such wonderful things about her last relationship. And then things changed so quickly. And that made me nervous about her doing this the way that she did tonight. Well, but I think a lot of people took a lesson from that, which was,

that was bad and this is good. And shouldn't the lesson you take from that be, we don't know these people and we don't know anything about their relationships? Well, it should be, but listen, you and I have both deleted tweets and social media posts in our life. We have in our archive of podcasts at the end of an episode, and producer Kai, keep us honest, I don't know which one it was. But we did somebody's album.

And for 20 minutes at the end, like a hidden track, like fucking Marcus Sophia and whatever, we talked about this relationship when it started almost two years to the day. It's August 13th today. And on it, you and I were like, there's no fucking way. Like, we were judging like a motherfucker,

like the rest of America, about whether they were going to fit, about whether he was a worthy part, all this shit that was like getting ensconced in the page six stuff. And you're right. We don't know. But I'm just coming away from tonight saying,

The stuff that I saw and the stuff that he says, it doesn't make me feel. Like, there were all kinds of reasons to be like, oh, what is this? I certainly come away, even in the fact that he was sort of a prop. He could have been one of the T.S. things on the shelves tonight in some way. But while Jason did the interview, I guess I just came away feeling like maybe the difference is the point.

And she seems so happy, and I can't wait to hear the art that gets created from this. I do think she seemed real. I thought she seemed really happy on that show. It's not that I'm not at all saying anything to the contrary of that. I find that the way that a lot of this is presented, a lot of their relationship is presented, just like pulls me, you, a lot of people into this territory of being like, like the topic at hand is Travis as boyfriend.

It's annoying that they did the GQ thing on Tuesday. It's annoying. Because it came out at the same time. Right. It was planned. Tree pain. So you think that because you at one point felt like this was not necessarily all coming out on the timeline that was originally hoped, maybe. I, uh, there, it felt like there was some rush to it.

But I think the core component. and tent polls of it, i.e. the podcast. Like, that was playing it. Like, Patrick Mahomes today was like, yeah, I heard there was a, I think, FaceTime me afterwards. Yeah. Actually, it was Brittany and, but I was in the background. Like, okay, great, I got it. Like, this has been known by the people in the inner circle for some time. And I think the problem was, guess what, Spotify, with their billboards around the world and all of the playlisting and everything, there are some people at Spotify who knew this. There are some people who, on the inside and the record in the vinyl manufacturing, there's some People at Universal who knew this.

Sabrina Carpenter's Camp knew this. I will say for the record that I have the good fortune to do a little bit of work with the Sabrina Carpenter team. And they did not tell me shit, including after the new Heights clips were released. They were so fucking buttoned up because they were so happy to be a part of this. And they understood the magnitude of it. They understood the assignment. They kept shit from me that nobody keeps from me because they understood the assignment.

because they're like in the same way that they have not played the album for Jason because Jason, you don't want to hear it. Nathan, you do not want to know because your fucking mouth is too big. Probably is. So like they understood the assignment to keep this thing on lockdown. But there were just too many people as a part of this very limited rollout. Because again, last album, she did not do the whole media circuit. She did one media circuit here and she did the Spotify billboards and that plus her record label and general industry chatter. By the way, shoutout hits Daily Double. They were all over this. Well, that's what I was going to say is there, I mean, for literally weeks, there's been. They knew. Yeah. And that's why I texted you ultimately. Once they'd done it a second time, once they'd published a second thing suggesting it, like, not only does that indicate, right, they, I don't know if they got additional sourcing or somebody else, like, confirmed it.

It also is like they're not getting the type of pushback. That would make you not want to do that. So that was part of it. And that is in part why I was wondering what your thoughts were on the exact timeline. Because then there was the stuff with the website saying, you know, the vinyl will ship by October 13th, but that's not the release day. Like, there was a lot here that felt like it was maybe on a slightly shifting schedule. But I don't think that's the podcast.

No. And again, you and I keep a lot of secrets on this podcast because we have to, out of respect for artists, out of respect for things that we know, we share what we can with the audience, we don't. But like, there were too many people who knew something here to continue with the plan. I think they just had to get this out. Now, did they move it up by two months? No. Did they move it up by six? No.

But, like, the website stuff was clunky enough. And there was enough, like, there's a little, I don't know. So I guess I want to ask you then. because this to me was the question, the biggest question that I had coming into tonight. She went out and she liked four of the most sort of extreme edges of the galaxy type conspiracy Easter egg-e theories on Instagram or social media. You know, people saying that the videos from the Midnight's era encompassed this, that it and that the orange is there,

that orange, you know, the reason that she wore the outfit in Scotland, like lots of very far-fed shit. And she liked it. And I think that one of the things she told us tonight was, hey, we're all in this rabbit hole together, and that maybe her likes are cool try

or I see you reaching there, not necessarily validation that this is exactly what happened. But I guess my question to you is, in your mind right now, if you tell the story, when did this thing start? When did she start Easter egging? When did she know

this was going to be the next album? Well, Nathan, how's your Hamlet? Mediocre. It sounds like it's not better than Travis's because he tied it

to the Lion King, which again, he had one of those Travis moments. I was like, God damn, he plays dumb. No, that's right.

But that's right. I mean, he's right. It's not as good as my Hamilton. Look at me standing up for Travis. Look at me sticking up for I've even tried all podcasts to get you to do it, and I finally did. He got that.

He had that. He didn't have esoteric. He really wasn't even a little bit close. You're such a writer. You're a football writer and you're a writer and you're being a very critical. He had Hamlet. He had it a little bit. So Ophelia.

What happened there? There was a bunch of mumbling of words and seemed like he maybe understood or she shushed him. What happened there? Did she shoo him? Seems like they had like, you know, they had two bottles of Shabli one night. And Taylor was like, babe, I'm gonna, like, let me tell you what happens in Hamlet. Trust me, it's really good. It's really good.

Like, they made the Lion King after it. And Travis was like, okay. And then they went down that bathroom. I like lions. Cats are cool. Did you see the hat I wore on the cover of GQ? I also love lions. I also love lions, Travis.

I was in a movie with a bear. But so let me, like, here's a, here's a core, um, a, a, a, a, a, a core trait of Ophelia. I guess this is it a trait. This is just something that canonically happened to Ophelia. Dyes?

Really gonna... The English majors don't come from me. We're synthesizing here. Her dad tells her she can't be with the object of her somewhat

obsessive romantic affections and then she dies. Now where have we heard this story before? Or I guess more accurately after. I mean, tortured poets?

Yes. The Maddie scene and Right. So the first... The first track of this album seems to refer directly

to kind of like being pulled out of that moment. So I feel like we pick up basically where that left off. And so yes, okay, she's talking about, I think that narrows the timeline down to, yes, she's talking about recording in Sweden

when she was on the European leg, but also even, you know, maybe some of it was a little bit before. But I think that places it like kind of directly coming out of tortured poets. To Swede or not to Swede, that is the question. That was so corny.

That would have been a Travis line tonight while he gazed lovingly. Oh, is Swedish? Do they have little shoes there? I like their fish. I think that, but so that's when I think she started. The other question is when did she finish this? And like,

how late into her recent history does this cover? Yes. Does it cover the catalog stuff? Because she spoke tonight about it specifically being from that moment of when she was in Europe. But one of the great moments of her life and the point in which she did not break over her father and her mother's health issues. She did not break over Travis talking about meeting. She broke tonight over reacquiring her catalog. That happened in May.

Yeah, I don't think this gets there. The vibe I'm getting is not that. Are you sure? Because the only reason I've seen some of the leak stuff is because you gave me a little bit of a chat GPT synopsis, and it sounded like perhaps there is a part of the fan base that believes she's referencing her catalog stuff and a few lyrics that reference male genitalia.

Okay, now I have a totally different read on that, actually. Okay, we were texting about this this morning as I was driving in New York City. No, I think it was yesterday. I think it was yesterday. I don't, I, I, I think it's more likely to be, um, a pause right now or like skip forward 20 seconds. Yeah, yeah. If you want any sort of spoilers. Yes. But if there's a, um, you know, a former Tadotter with whom there's been some tension, a former protege who's like sort of left the fold and there's been. some drama. That now reads more accurately to me. But I don't know. I don't know. Wait, what? What? Here's what I will say. I think the perspective of the song in question, which is father figure, seems most likely to be Taylor thinking about a younger artist, like Taylor vis-a-vis a younger artist. But obviously.

Like the Stephen Nick's song on the last album. And if, yes, and if you, but in a, but with an admittedly different vibe, obviously, if you know what we're talking about and you know some of the lyrics that we're talking about, there is an element of perspective shifting that is happening in this song and there is some ambiguity associated with that. So I merely speculate. Well, so, um, we're getting a 12 song Taylor Swift record, production, produce. produced by Max Martin and Shelbach. This is not, and to be clear, like this is not because Jack Antonoff has done anything wrong and there's a rift or there's anything wrong with Aaron Destor.

There's nothing wrong there. The point is, as so many people, including on this podcast, but like, we weren't the first to say it. Like, everybody says that. Like, people were ready for a break, right? We'd gotten a lot of Jack over the last albums. This is our ninth studio.

record since, you know, whatever in the last handful of years. It's been a decade. It's been more than a decade. Yeah. So people were like, hey, by the end of tortured poets, which was a terrific album, and I'm so glad exists, and I still go back to in a million ways, to this day, I still love Down Bad. The Black Dog absolutely kills me. There are other things on that album that, you know,

just are incredibly moving and that matter. I happen to believe that Fortnite is really, really good. I know not everybody feels that way, but I don't like that song, but I love the Black Dog. It's fine. It's fine. And I love the bolter. You love the bolter, right? But this was an album that really mattered. But I think, I think it was fair to say, hey, Taylor, I get it. Thank you. And with the next one, can't wait to see your genius challenged in new and different ways. And this is not necessarily a new and different way until you listen to what she said tonight, which that she went in the studio with Max Martin, her mentor,

and Shelback, her peer, who they are now both of age and adults. And just the three of them made an intentional album that preserves the direct and poetic writing that she has been focused on since folklore, right?

But is all about bangers. And I guess she really put herself on the line for this album in ways that, she hasn't before. I mean, she put it all out there. She really, like, this was a, if there was the biggest risk tonight was going on the podcast with two, with a Hall of Fame Center and tight end to talk about your music. The second biggest risk tonight was what she did to put herself out there and be like, I don't even care. That's how great I feel about this. And that to me, like, I'm all in. I'm all in.

No, me too. When four-time album of the year winner says, I could not be more excited about this music, she did not sell tortured poets that way. She did not sell Midnights that way. She did not sell Evermore that way. She did not sell Focler that way. She hasn't really sold an album that way since 1989.

Well, and that was the album today that she told us is indeed her Sterling one. I think I heard her say. that's my favorite. When they talked about the re-records. When they talked about the re-records, what's your favorite? She's like, listen,

19-89 is what it is, and I just think it's the best. But going back to red, like, I've had mixed feelings about it, but the re-record process made me feel better about it and feel great about it. I got the whole comment vis-a-vis red,

but I missed that little aside about 1989. That's really interesting. But it makes a ton of sense because, and I think I texted this to you guys, even before she went all in on this, on the show. I was kind of like, and even when I was like,

oh my God, Taylor, like, why are you giving, this is your moment? Why are you giving it to your boyfriend? Like, uh, I don't want to do this. I don't want to listen to men talk to each other. Like, that's not my vibe. I'm getting, sort of. I talk to a man enough on this fucking podcast.

It's like enough already. No more dumb fucking men. putting chest hair in my sourdough. Ew. By the way, can we just be clear? When she made the point that both chest hair and cat hair are edible, it was fantastic.

Oh, gosh. I guess... Fiber. Yeah. Also true. That woman must have one heck of a vacuum cleaner. You know how to ball. I know Aristotle. You know how to hair ball. I know Aristotle. So, but even before, even when I was feeling like that, I was kind of like, but P.S., I'm super psyched for this album, one, because it's a Taylor Swift album, but two, because I just like, she locked,

when an album doesn't quote unquote do great, which obviously takes huge air quotes because this is the most successful artist of all time that we're talking about. When an album, I think goes down as one that didn't go over. quite as well. Is that how you think of tortured poets? Yes. It was nominated for album of the year. It's one of the most streamed albums of all time.

She didn't win any, like this is, to be so clear, I'm not giving my opinions. I actually think tortured poets is pretty underrated. You're giving the dumb Grammy voters opinions? I'm giving. They were just tired. I'm describing a landscape. I'm not making any sort of value judgment. When tortured poets came.

out, the critical reception was pretty lukewarm. There was a lot of writing about these lyrics are unhinged. I think that's, by the way, I think that's unfair. Yeah, that's the worst take in hindsight. I think it was her best lyrical album. I really did. Needed an editor, overwrought, tiresome, groaning under the weight of all the lore. And then also, like, the street. screaming numbers are never going to be unimpressive. It is a different beast because of its length. You and I have both acknowledged that people dropped off a lot of these songs in ways that don't happen to most Taylor Swift a material.

This is not me being like, I don't like tortured poets. I do like tortured poets. I like tortured poets a lot. Also, by the way, I'm out here running. songs. Of course stuff dropped off. It had to. That's why she made 12 on this album and only 12. Okay, but can I tell you how I was feeling? I think there was more. And by the way, this happened with reputation too. But there was more, and it happened with Red. Red is actually the best example of it. And that's probably my favorite Taylor Swift album most days. But when Red didn't win that Grammy,

that is one single, arguably entirely meaningless piece of feedback. But when there was this one piece of feedback that like didn't get that album to the place where she wanted it to go. Yeah. She locked in so hard, she made 1989. And I do think that the reception of tortured poets, my guess is that it didn't entirely satisfy her. Even though I think she feels very strongly about that album and even though I think that ended up having a slightly different life because of the tour bringing it to life in a new way, I have. have to guess that she doesn't feel like she knocked it out of the park. So now we're getting somewhere.

And that is an insanely competitive person's point of view on her own work. And so when I was saying to you, even when I'm getting a little bit icked out by some of the clips that they were showing before they did the pod, I was saying to you, I'm really excited about this album. And part of that was because I absolutely believe her and believed her before she started saying all of this stuff that she was going to lock in for this. And so I don't want to, like, we're setting such a high bar, but she said it too. I really do believe that she's completely given this thing everything that she has. Okay.

So I don't disagree with you. And the thing that happened last time that a new album came up for us, both midnights. and tortured poets, to be honest, is we were nervous. We were unsure. We had some anxiety about the quality of this record. But you just said something that I have been thinking about since this announcement came out and since it became clear to me last week

that we were getting this. And it is this thread that goes through the entire experience of this rollout, which is the competitive nature of this person. And I want to ask you this in a way that doesn't compare because, as you have seen, Taylor Swift has lifted up more artists in her generation than any artist. She's done it through fighting for the rights to your own music and restructuring deals. She's done it through charting a course that suggests to every other artist

that you have the right to own your art, if not out of the gate, eventually. She's done it by putting artists in the opening slots on her tour, who, as Gracie Abrams just acknowledged on stage in Los Angeles last week, has been the reason, the primary reason, why she has gotten into the slipstream and then escaped like a NASCAR, you know, pulling out and taking the lead, not over Taylor,

but you get my point, which is getting sort of rocketed into that next phase of orbit, Gracie Abrams, Sabrina Carpenter, on and on, the list is long. So this is an artist who has lifted up lots of her peers. But what I believe is that in 2024, looked at what was one of the great years for pop music period in, let's just call it modern music,

and I think unequivocally, the greatest year for female pop music based on the most recent generation of artists, but then also the new generation of artists. Charlie X-E-X, Sabrina Carpenter, Billy Eilish, Chapel Rhone, Gracie Abrams of the last two years, I think that 13, 14 of the last 16 album of the year nominees, something like that. My math is probably wrong, but it's very close to that, have been female. Like, she didn't win, and I don't think that it's a comparison thing, but I do think that there has to be some juices that flow through the CEO of the generation, through the competitor of the generation. She may not be an athlete,

but she is competitive, saying, hey, bar raised, chapel's out there. Charlie's doing this. Sabrina has her lane. Gracie's in my slipstream. Billy is a fucking badass. I got to keep making.

Like, do I think that's why she did it? Do you think that is in her mind as she enters this phase that she said, hey, I'm going to go make something that people can't not talk about. As you said, she may not listen to the social stuff, but she definitely reads a review in Rolling Stone. She does. She may not listen to every podcast, but, you know, she gives notes occasionally to

podcasts that talk about Taylor Swift. I think you and I can say that. I think that she, I guess my basic answer to your question is closer to no than yes. Part of why I say that, and this is pure speculation, and me projecting my own experience a little bit. I find it very hard, even with the most successful people that you just named in that next generation, many of whom are immensely immensely mega stratospheric artists already.

I find it very hard to compare anyone to Taylor Swift. You can't, but they are inevitably in her family tree, right? Yes. But my guess is that she is comparing her to herself a little bit more than she, like, I think she is saying, I want, when this album comes out, when the life of a showgirl comes out, I want the reaction, the fans are given, but I want the reaction in the critical press and in the, and the award spaces, in the spaces that aren't a given, and in the continued, you know, the continued statement that that the, that the

charts make and streaming makes, I want that to be, to represent an unequivocal success that is different from my last album. That is a thought process that seems much more congruent with what's happening here versus I need to make my best album ever because I see Sabrina and Chapel and Charlie and everybody sort of behind my shoulder. I don't think she sees them as a threat, but they are all 23 to 26 years old, 10 years younger than she is of a different generation.

And I just wonder if she's like, I got to stay sharp. Because at some point, if I look at Stevie Nix, if I look at Clara Bow, people move on. I'm going to do everything I can to keep them from doing that. Yeah. I think it's more about, like, I got to stay sharp because some of the feedback is that, like,

look, like this woman takes a note. You know, she talked about the fact that she can take constructive criticism, and I think that's really true. She does. And so I think it's more about... The best. I got to stay sharp because there's some conversation that the edges have dulled a little bit in certain ways.

The thing that I am... Do you think that, though, I didn't hear that the edges had dealt. Like, I don't know how she could walk off the stage at the Erez tour and not feel like she was sitting at the top of the world. and by Memorial Day weekend when she owned her catalog that she wasn't like, man, my life is the best it's ever been.

What I didn't understand and what I didn't actually believe and thank God, I don't have to admit defeat on this one. I didn't believe that the last six months where she was on vacation in Yellowstone Club with fucking Aaron Andrews

and Carissa Thompson for crying out loud and we were seeing all these pictures of them everywhere. Okay, so now you believe they have a recording studio there? No. I don't. What I didn't believe was that she was making an album while she was resting. And what I think

she told us tonight was, I made this album a year ago. And I also took rest. And I'm good. By the way, she's like, yeah, three months. You know, I got to talk to my mom in ways I didn't. I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about? Your mom is your personal assistant. She's on the road with you all the time. She's in the room with you 24-7. She walks out before the start of the air. What do you mean? This was the first time we've been able to have a conversation. I mean, it's probably true. I just don't, you know, whatever. She got her rest. Maybe they had more of them.

Maybe they had some particularly meaningful ones. Don't come for the long time. Especially like the way that she talked about her brother and her mom, right, going to do the first negotiation on her cattle. Like that was a very meaning. Like this is a family. This is a family business at the core. That's what Swift Inc is. And I guess I just would say I was having a hard time reconciling what we were seeing publicly over the last.

six months with this idea that she was in the studio grinding away and that she wasn't. And what's amazing and awesome about that is we get to capture the energy of new love for Taylor Swift, I think, and joy, which is I think what she spoke to today from a year ago. And there still, maybe she adjusted the lyrics, but if you're right, if your instincts are right, it doesn't capture that added very emotional moment where she broke down and was deadweight like she was carried around on the ERA's tour stage by Travis, right? When she found out that her music was hers again, there's actually this pool and this well of joy and anger and relief and resentment and pride

and all these things that she's tapped into over her whole career that she can tap into that isn't on this album that will fuel the, as she said, numerically perfect TS-13. Yeah, I think that's going to be insane. The Easter egging will be just so out of this world. But we'll have time to get there. We've got a whole other album to go before then. The thing that I agree with all of that, I do think that there's, it's so clear that she has,

I mean, she's, you know, she's well into her 30s now. Like she has reached, she does seem to have reached some state of like understanding her power. That even she kind of talked about it. it when she said that, and we've heard her say this on a number of instances before, that for a really long time, even when she was already on top of the world, in a lot of ways, she was always what's next, what's next? Like, how do I keep striving? How do I keep striving? How do I keep striving? How do I keep striving? How do I keep striving? And I think that... Self-created, right? Yeah. But also, I do think that there's like, particularly for someone who gets famous as a really

young woman, it's hard to recognize your own power. Like it's, it's, I think it's, I would imagine it's very easy to internalize the first experiences you have, which are, I'm depending on all of these other people and I sort of need them to sanction what I want to do and I need to do creatively what people are sort of nudging me to do. And it just, it seems like, she's saying more and more and more, it's been the most fulfilling exercise of her career to wrestle that back in little bits and pieces. But it's probably only recently in her 30s that she's really felt like, no, I'm the power player here.

Like, I'm the big swinging, you know what. And I think some of my favorite lyrical moments on tortured poets, like particularly this was why I went pretty gaga for who's afraid of little old me were like it's just so juicy to me to hear her right from that perspective like that like that's just the part of her life now that I'm so compelled by and I think that experience has so much to do with the masters. And so I imagine that we will hear things on this album that feel, even though they don't get to the resolution, still feel informed by that overall saga, to use her word, which was a saga and really was the genesis of the tour. And in some ways, can you argue that if Scooter Braun doesn't buy Taylor Swift's masters?

is like breaking her heart and upsetting her beyond belief. Does she never decide to do the re-recordings? Does the concept of the Erez Tour never get fleshed out in the same way? Does the tour never become the phenomenon it is? Does she never perform at Arrowhead? Does Travis never shoot his shot? Does none of this ever happen? Like it has been the animating force of her last six plus years.

Karma is the guy on the chiefs, Nora. It wasn't originally the line. But just for clarity, I think that things that feel related to that business side struggle and also struggle within her heart to do those. I think that will show up on this album. I just don't think that there's going to be any song that's like, and this is the song I wrote after I got my master recordings back because I think that she'd wrapped before she got there. Yeah, I, there's intent here that she has, the last few albums, I mean, folklore and Evermore at intent. But I think this one, she like knows exactly what she's trying to do, right? And it has purpose and it has constraints. That's the thing. It's like, that's the genius of Twitter was

140 characters. People are going to get everything wrong. But by giving yourself that constraint, it creates an art, right? It forces you to fit into a box. Well, and it forces you to say, I saw a squirrel and I gave it a piece of bread. Calling him out on that was so fucking great. That was all in. It was really, really, really funny.

She's embraced it all. It's so good. But by imposing these constraints on herself at a time in which money is not an issue, fame is not an issue, success, you know, all of the things are not issues for her, the things that are issues for her are her father's heart, her mother's knees, her own heart, right?

But putting those creative constraints on her when she doesn't have to have them, most artists get to album 12, Nora, and they get lazy. They get lazy. It's happened throughout the career. It's why Chris Martin has said, the next Coldplay record is it,

and then they're done, because people don't need to hear anymore from us. Well, if you push yourself, and if you are driven by the combination of brilliant and, you know, stark hole in your heart or insecure, whatever it is in her that just drives her. And it doesn't even have to be those things. I just think she put a few of those things on display tonight to show us,

but she also can just be driven for the sake of it. Like, that is what greatness is, right? That you cover it in sports, we're covering it in music. And that's what we're seeing, putting those constraints on yourself to force you to think, to move out of your comfort zone. I'm going to be in a room with two dudes who, you know, some people said, made the best album, in quotes, that I ever made, right? And who, who sheltered me and ushered me through this period of time and who net, all the shit that people have said, she had the courage to walk back into the den and say, it's you, it's you and it's me. And that's it.

Lock the fucking doors. No one even knows. We're not telling the jet trackers. I'm taking a fucking net jets that is. you know, a blind tail number, and I'm coming to Stockholm, and I'm getting in a car, and nobody's going to know, and we're doing this for the purpose of making the best thing I've ever done. I can't wait. I do think also that just the constraints of it feel exciting, because I think you asked this earlier, and just to make sure that I answer it, I think, like,

my experience of tortured poets, and I think you could say this about Midnights a little bit, is that like the highs, I think, are as high as they have ever been. Like, there's no, to me, there's no, like, she fell off, you know, or like she lost her edge or something. And I don't even think that this is necessarily, this is just, she, are you sure that I don't think that, yes. What's the biggest hit she's had in the last 10 years? Well, that's a different, that's a different question, though.

But I wonder if in these 12 songs. Antihero. Exactly. And I wonder if in these 12 songs, she is trying to deliver bad water or style. I'm almost sure she is. Right.

And that's what's fucking awesome. Well, and she's trying to do it in a way where even if no one's saying no to her, she's almost saying no to herself. And I don't mind. Like, I think the, you know, 30,

whatever song double album. It's just a different choice. It's for a different group of people. It has different pros and cons. I'm not here to set, like, we said this a bunch of times when we were talking about tortured poets and this was true on midnights and it was even true a little bit of just like that era where she was pumping out so many songs and we were getting the vault songs and it was just like flood the zone all the time.

We're not ever here to complain about more Taylor's. Swift songs. But there is, there's, I think it's really healthy to kind of toggle between the modes of I'm going to brain dump and show everybody all these sketches that are floating around in my mind. Right. But then also to toggle the other way and go, we're going to seriously edit this so that only the best of the best to make it out there because I'm gunning for something that is closer to a sort of idealized perfection. So, so just, just to answer the question. that I asked myself rhetorically, the most streamed daily song on Spotify right now

by Taylor Swift is Cruel Summer. Yeah. The second most stream song, and it's pretty close to the others, but it's not that close to Cruel Summer, is style. The next one is blank space. Sorry, August is number two.

The next one is style. Well, but that's because that's not going to be true in a month. That's right. That's right. That's right. the next one is blank space. So like the next one is cardigan, which is interesting. But like those don't accurately represent the cultural movement of those tracks, right?

Because we were still in a transitional digital era 10 years ago when 1989 came out radio on and on and on. So I do think that the point she cares about math, that was a big part of today, the numbers. She can't look away. She just cannot look away. And so... Okay, also, I'm so sorry. I need to harp on this a little bit more. Go. Go.

Numerology is not saying 87 plus 13 equals 100. That's math. That's addition, actually. Numerology is saying 87 plus 13 equals 100. And therefore, Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey are meant to be together because they can keep it 100 together. Therefore, you apply a significance to the numbers. I'm just, I just, I like an amount of precision. I just feel that it must be said. Jason and Taylor being fans of the number 13 and her, he's saying, what does that mean? And her saying it means we're family. There's numerology, right?

All I'll say is this. Yes. Both Midnights and Tortured Poets had the surprise second album release that got all the music out. But it also, in this. particular age of business and streaming, both of which she understands so clearly because she gave you a fucking lesson tonight if you weren't listening. And if you don't understand it all, you don't have to understand it other than to know that she understands it, and that's why she's here. But she knows what drives streaming. And she knows that when you put out an album with 20 songs or 31 songs, that that helps boost the overall numbers that are in outdated magazines and charts that maybe don't represent everything

that they should right now. Now, I think she's looking at the individual thing and saying, can I make the banger that percolates society? Can I make pink fucking pony club? Can I make, right, espresso? Because I have not actually had espresso in a little bit of time. In quite some time. And it's not a competitive comparison thing,

but it's just, can I still do this? And that alone is why you close the damn door, and while you fly the blank plane to Sweden, in between like hanging out with your passionate new lover. I've got a blank plane, baby. Yeah. And you walk into that studio. I'll blank the plane.

And you go for it and you say, we're going to try 12 times. Let's see which one of these sticks to the bones of this fan base that I don't listen to in the Instagram comments, but I have my ways of following on social media so that I at least understand the pulse of what they're thinking. Okay.

One more big question for you. No, actually a few. Can I go like kind of rapid fire with you? This is what they did at the end of their pod. Go, go, go. Okay, I don't know because I got kicked off, so I have no idea what happened at the end. So this is where I ask you if you're allergic cats.

No. Do you, so she said that Max said, I don't want you to change the lyrical style that you've adopted over the last few albums. And that actually is the thing that, like, I know in the next few days, I'm going to spend the most time... It bothered you.

Thinking about... No, it didn't bother me. Because folklore is different than Midnights is different than torture poets? Or, like, tell me. So, no, it's just because I just think that's a... I think that's a really interesting idea. It's a really interesting thing to reflect sort of what she cares about and where she is.

Because as we talked about, she basically gave like a laundry list of the things that people didn't like about tortured poets and said this one is the polar opposite. With one exception, which is that that album took some flack for like a tattooed golden retriever. We think Charlie Puth should be a bigger artist for the kind of run on sentence. Fuck off, it was great. But but but but but but but I'm not saying to you fuck off. I just mean the critic.

I know. but also like you can say, you said some of these things. I know, but I feel defensive. No, but not about the lyrics. I said unequivocally it was her best lyrical album. I feel defensive of that album for the lyrics. I really do.

No, I agree with that. And so I'm not like, oh, no, I'm in some ways I'm excited by the challenge of putting that into a Max Martin package because he has historically really placed lyric writing at the low end of the totem pole and what he thinks is important in a song. And so in some ways, that's two people at the top of their game in different ways coming together to yin yang.

Yeah. To yin yang together and maybe create something spectacular. But I do, like, that's just an interesting data point to me that she took a lot of the feedback. But in that instance, she went, no, screw you guys. The Charlie Pooh thing was funny. And, like, if you. didn't get it, whatever. I want to keep writing this way,

and I'm going to keep writing this way. I just am so excited to hear that in this particular musical packaging, or at least what I would... That wasn't a question. That was just a thing that I wanted to talk about. No, no, it was. I guess I'll ask the question,

because you make a good point. Do you think that her biggest hits are lyrically light? No. Well, I think that they are lyrically taught in a way that some of the more recent stuff isn't. Like, I think blank space is genius. I think that is genius-level lyric writing,

but it's not the type of stuff. It's clever. It's funny. It's satirical. It's sharp. It has punchlines. Like, Taylor Swift used to, I mean, she still does, but, like, she can land a tight punchline in a little stanza.

And she doesn't really write like that anymore. She writes poetry. angels roll their eyes. What doesn't kill me makes me want you more. And it's new, the shape of your body, it's blue, the feeling I've got, it's, ooh, whoa, it's a cruel summer. Cruel summer is definitely, cruel summer is definitely on the simpler, clerical side. Right. I mean, I don't really, like, I'm drunk in the back of the car.

And I cried like a baby coming up from the bar, but even, but that's still. like I think that song has great lyrical writing. Like I don't want to keep secrets just to keep you. It's my favorite Taylor song. And sometimes I do think that there are moments of greatness that only come from actually you can't write out every thought and every word. Like it's the equivalent of. Well, yeah. And so I don't and and I don't know.

Like I guess it makes this album an amazing test case. Can you, if you're going to write like that, if you're going to write in the quill pen all the time, can you have a cruel summer? Can you have a blank space? I think right now, as you said, there hasn't really been one. And it will be very, I think she basically just told us that she's going to try. And I'm interested to hear that. That's maybe, like, what this album says about her lyrical writing is maybe the thing that I'm most interested in within it overall. Perhaps with the exception to just like now she has set such immensely high of a bar, the kind of intrigue of just how that's going to go is also up there.

But the comment about the lyrics is going to be like floating around in my head for weeks. Okay, now can I do rapid fire questions? Yeah, I thought that was it. I mean, yeah, go, go, let's do it. Do you think she's going to tour this album? Oh, I think that's the operative question. I would just say all of the, hey, their team is talking to the sphere. Like, the sphere would build a second sphere if Taylor would come play.

Like, there's not a preliminary feeling it out conversation. Everybody chill the fuck out on that. Like you're going to see so much clickbait right now. Just step away from the clicks. Step away from the sphere. Yeah. I think that she is not in a rush to get back on the road. And I think that's one of the things that she told us tonight

is that it was grueling. It was physically exhausting. It was all encompassing and incredibly difficult. And the person in this world the most who's not in her inner circle, who I'm most interested to get that opinion from is you, because you understand, I think, innately, what Travis's football plans are. And it is, they have had a great six months.

This album has been in the bag. And I think that it seems like she's as happy as we have ever seen her. And it seems like at 35, soon to be 36 years old, Travis's season is going to be over come hell or high water by February 15th. And I don't think she's playing the Super Bowl. So then what?

And it would surprise me if as he moves into, to what's next and they have a little more downtime if she decides to go do that. That said, as you know sort of alluded to, she could tour differently. She could think about this the way that Miley thinks. I'm going to do just a few things here and there. I'm going to make you travel to me in Vegas or L.A. or Kansas fucking city. And you're going to come see me and it's going to be a, you know, a show that I control and it's going to own all my theater nerd stuff. And I'm going to do it. I just think right now touring is not the priority for her. There are other things in her life, her parents' health, her knitting, her baking,

her boyfriend, her new album that are going to take precedence. I don't think she's in a rush to go out and wear the toe separators and blow up her body. Toe separators was incredible. That was actually, you know what? You know what? Oh my God. I'm going to say a second nice thing about Travis Colsey. Let's go.

Travis introduced the detail of the toe separators into the podcast. podcast. And that was really, I was, I was really interested to hear that. That was a vivid detail and I appreciated him for it. I think, look how far you've come. She's happier than she's ever been. And I'm like, I hope so. I don't know. Like, how am I supposed to fucking know? Well, because she said it. She said that her life pivoted and that she wanted to capture it in an album. With two Swedes. Yeah. No, definitely with two Swedes. I guess I think we've heard that before. But I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I very much hope it's true. That's the, that's, I've probably said this like 19 times at this point.

Like, that's the part where I'm always like, yeah, I don't, I don't know. Yeah. Okay, next question. Do you think that blueberry lemon sourdough sounds good? No, I do not. Yeah, I don't know. I just came up to my mom's house. It's 95 degrees.

I am so warm still at night. I'm doing this podcast with you. She has some bakery. blueberry lemon scones that appear to be somewhere between seven and 17 days old. I'm not eating them. But scones are a more appropriate vessel for blueberry lemon, a blueberry lemon flavor profile. Okay. Than sourdough bread.

I mean, it's sort of the same thing. It's like it's a little tougher and drier than it should be. Why exactly am I eating this? I need something else to go with this, whether it's coffee or tea or butter or whatever. Like, I can't just eat this alone, or I will lose all of the salivary glands in my, in my entire body. Yeah, no, that sounds right.

Okay. What was your favorite Travis comment? Was it, that's a banger? Or was it when he said, that's a banger another time, or was it when he also said, that's a banger? You couldn't let it go. No, Nora. It was when he talked about the word trisketophobia? What? The fear of the number 13. Or philia, which is the love of the number 13. Which is the love of the number 13. That was my favorite. I mean, there was a moment in this podcast.

by the way, where this thing, she went so deep on the bread, it was like, okay, NPR's defunded. She's now starting a fucking, like, bread radio show on WXPN, Philadelphia. I mean, she did say, she said, I'm really talking about bread 60% of the time,

and let me tell you, after listening to that podcast, I believe it. There was a hard edit as they tumbled down the sourdough thing, where it feels like they went on for another 12 to 16 minutes, And then Taylor was like, what the fuck are we doing? And they're like, it's fine. We'll edit it out.

Let's go. Okay, we're back into, yeah. Do you think that that was her criteria? But she was like, I want to do the pod, get me on the pot. But you guys have to let me talk about my bread. I want to talk about my bread as much as I want. And you're going to listen. And you're going to let the listeners know.

Everyone is talking about Pam Anderson's bread. And my bread is better. And I want to talk about my bread. So I will come on your fucking meathead pod. and you want me to say cover zero, cover two, cover four, and pretend like I know. Well, I do know. So yeah, I'll come on and do it.

You want me to talk about cat hair? Yes, I will do it. But only in the context of it being in your bread. I also think the puns, the loaf story. Like, this is where I was like, okay, this is kind of charming. Is like, I did think that a couple times you could see in her eyes, like Travis was starting to say something. and she was like, oh, God, this could be bad.

Yes. Talking about like... Talking about his, like, what did he say? I came home from the... He's like, I came home from the thing just excited to know who you are or something. And I was like, well, yeah, but that was like, everybody wants to know who you are.

Like, what... And she was like, oh, that is so sweet. She's like, let's move it along. But I do think... the stuff where she was bringing up the squirrel tweets, I just, I was like, okay, am I still a little bit being like, what are these dinner conversations like?

Sure, yes, I am. But it just, it was nice to see her having fun. And it made me understand what it looks like for Taylor Swift to have fun in that environment. Next question. Wait, wait, before you do it, can I just say this? How about the part where she had to go to the video game room, knock on the door

because she just found out that she got her music. She opens the door in tears and he's got to kick out all the fellas who are in there. I mean, I will say.

So high school is a description of her daily activity in Kansas City. That song's a documentary. It's unbelievable. Yeah, I had to kick had to kick Travis

off the video game console with the boys. That was definitely vivid. I was involved in the curiosity of who you were. That was my favorite Travis quote.

that's what he said. I came home, I was engulfed in the curiosity of who you were. Travis, guess what? We got a fucking podcast devoted to being engulfed

in the curiosity of who she is. Yeah. Travis, be our 92 presenter. This is the other thing. I was like, oh, God,

I don't know these bits. Like, I don't know this show. Here's my other question. Do you think that people were actually punching each other on the ground

in the same? sweet after I think it was the AFC championship game that they were talking about but maybe it was a Super Bowl did you see Lana Del Rey get engulfed by a bunch

of high society famous women in the Super Bowl box the Hymen sisters probably tore at least three locks of hair out of each other at the Super Bowl now that's amazing was underneath them

probably with a knee probably Esty's knee on Lana Hyde's throat just like going to town on Travis's second Bays face ripping hair out. Yeah, exactly. Listen, winning does a lot of things.

That's fabulous. That's really fabulous. That I can wholeheartedly get behind. I guess I think those are all my questions. So on that note, hey, look, more graceful end to the pod than the YouTube stream. We can give ourselves that. I agree. There are two things that I just want to say to you.

before we go. Number one, she was clear that she cannot cut a song from this 12-song album, and she said that directly. And so I just want to put out there that you and I,

in our, what song would you cut, apparently you're going to have a hard problem. Interesting. More acutely, she did give us one final Easter egg that I don't know if you caught it. She wouldn't show the pictures on the inside

of the vinyl. But she did tell us who took those photos. And she said it was the same photographer as the one who took her photos for reputation. Yeah. And so is your,

do you think that's a reputation Taylor's version? Easter egg? Or do you think that's just like a, please harken back to some of my currently most beloved works in 1980?

via Max Martin and Shelback and reputation via this signifier that I'm pulling out. Nora, at this point, I think that she is clinically insane and I think that she plans these things out, like the greatest psycho killers of our generation.

I mean, we know that she's seen the Zodiac killer memes now. Some of the time, I think that she puts it out into the ether and adopts the conspiracy theories of some of the fan base. And like all great, you know, leaders some of the time.

She creates them on her own. And, you know, the other amazing, you know, the other amazing piece of like wisdom that she gave out tonight was when you lose your shit, you lose your leadership. And so that to me is like the Taylor Swift way. Even if you're losing your shit and even if there are things out there that didn't happen,

I'm going to stay calm, cool, and collective, and I'm going to lead this cult forward no matter what. And tonight and this week was just a great one. So my point is, I do believe that in that interview, she planted something that she will go back to in somewhere between two and 20 months and be like, see, I fucking told you. And pulling out this unnecessary fact that those photos,

she's not going to show us the photos, but she does want us to know, know that those photos were taken by the same guy who took her picture for reputation. Very interesting moment, Taylor. You don't think that the Easter egg could be that she's going to do an album about bread? Dude, I think the Easter egg could be that, yes, there's an entire third album called Sourdough. She'll do all the covers. She will do.

It's a loaf story. Are you ready for it? She'll just do all of those songs. Nothing is past her, and I'm done supposing otherwise. So thank you, Taylor, for connecting the. puzzle, which is that you both recorded a new album and rested. And now I can't wait to see what you do next. I think this cycle is going to be a combination of the two, and she's earned it. But I'll tell you what, we're going to stream the shit out of it, aren't we, Nora? She's all in,

so am I. Onward and upward. All right, this has been every single album. I'm Nora Princeati. As always, he's Nathan Hubbard. Thank you to Kai McMullen for producing this episode, and we will talk to you soon.