Every Single Album - 'The Rise and Fall of a Midwest Princess' | Every Single Album: Chappell Roan

Episode Date: June 14, 2024

Nora talks about her experience at the Eras Tour in Edinburgh, Scotland (1:00). Then, Nora and Nathan talk about the meteoric rise of Chappell Roan and her 2023 album 'The Rise and Fall of a Midwest Princess.' They discuss how her career took off this summer after opening for Olivia Rodrigo and performing on NPR's 'Tiny Desk Concert' (16:05), what happens when an artist with a really passionate fan base breaks into the mainstream (30:59), and how the specificity of her songs turns them into hits (47:43). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Greetings, it's Mal. Call your banners because it's time to head back to Westrose for House of the Dragon, season two. The ringers dragon riders will soar alongside you each week with a heron-hall-sized slate of conversations. The dragon has three heads, and on Sunday nights immediately after Hot D. Concludes, Chris Ryan, Joanna Robinson, and I will be with you for Talk the Thrones. Then on Mondays, two more shows away. Dan Lath and Charles Holmes, Steve Allman and Jomea Denneron, aka the Midnight Boys, Pugh!

Pugh! We'll head to the tourney grounds to share their reactions. And of course, Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald will sip the Arbor's finest vintage on the watch. Then on Tuesdays, Joanna and I will head to the bowels of a pleasure den for our House of our deep dives. Then on Thursdays, Joe, Neil Miller, and Dave Gonzalez will gather the Ravens for trial by content. In this season, full episodes of Talk to Thrones, House of Ar, and the Midnight Boys will also be available on video on Spotify and the new Ringervverse YouTube channel. Podcast episodes available on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Yes. Welcome to every single album. I'm Nora Princeiotti. I am here, as always, with the one and only Nathan Hubbard. Nathan, how are you doing?

I assume I'm doing a little bit better than you. You must be jet lagged, my friend, having been across the pond at the Eres Tour. I was across the pond. I'm actually okay. It's easy, you know, it's coming back is easier than going over. Did you meet haggis? What did you do there? So as Nathan is referencing, I went to the Eres tour over the weekend in Edinburgh. We'll chat about that a little bit. We do have a fun episode about Chaparone coming up. But to debrief, I did not eat haggis. Oh.

Maybe I should have. It was on a menu in a couple of places. It was. Yeah. Haggis is around. I mean, it's still a thing. It's not just a thing we say about it being a thing, but it's actually a thing. No, it's actually a thing. We did, I had a vegetarian on my trip, so perhaps that was, that was a

reason why it was a low on Haggis. You don't Mao Haggis in front of a vegetarian. Yeah, I think it's bad form. I think it's bad form. But that'll be for my next time back. I would absolutely go back to Edinburgh. I thought it was really, really fun. It was just so much fun. I mean, the show is obviously phenomenal. It was so fun to just like be back in that room. It also really did feel like Swifty study abroad. Like I just really felt like, you know, everyone was over there. You're like walking around this, this little like Scottish city with all these like medieval architecture and like all of the vibes and all of the Harry Potter vibes.

And then everybody walking up and down the streets is just like in their cowboy hats and in their boots and in their era's get ups. Even like I got on the plane and they're making the announcements and they're like for everybody going to Taylor Swift and everybody woo's. And it was just like, I think. I think there's a world in which that energy is a little bit annoying. Yeah. Like, I had a little bit of angst about, like, horde of American women descending upon

international city. Yeah. But everyone was so happy. And in large part, it just seemed like it had a really charming feel. And then, obviously, it was so cool to see the tortured poets set, which was really, really good. I did play myself by manifesting the boulter. A night early. I was so sad for you.

when you manifest on a podcast, you have to be specific. And just like Travis was like, Jason Kelsey was like, wait, do you mean you were going to give her your jersey number or your phone number? And he was like, you know which one. All right now.

Like he was very clear about what he wanted. You needed to be a little bit clearer. And I'm sorry, you got the bolter, but not the right night. And then you got, oh, it's nice to have a friend. Okay. You keep, you said, I was like,

offline and then I looked at Twitter this morning and you were tweeting about this. I would not say that the headlining song, first of all, just as for it's nice to have a friend. Actually, one of the friends that I was there with has it's nice to have a friend like in her top 10. So she was very excited about that. I also. Does she eat haggis? No, she's the vegetarian. Oh.

Well, that explains a few things. Stop it. Low protein. Second of all, second of all, second of all, this is going to be a three part. there are three points that I need to make here. I made my first. I got it. Yes.

My second, the second part of the scolding is that as an ever more girly, even, you know, not, it's not the point. It's not to pit them against each other,

but even as an ever more over folklore. Oh, did she praise it? She played Dorothea. And Dorothea is a song that I do really, really, really enjoy.

And Dorothea was mashed up with his nice to have a friend. I thought that was great. Okay. However, third part of scolding, most important part, What are you doing?

What do you think that you Nathan Hummerer doing? Like, walking around on the internet, tweeting about night three surprise song set as like, it's nice to have a friend night and not the haunted exile mashup night. Yeah. You're right. The haunted exile mashup. It made for better comedy. The way that we screamed.

Really? When she went into the exile portion. Yeah. Well, and it sounded like they. sang the Boni Vair part. We're all doing the Bonne Verre parts. It was like, it really, I mean, first of all, like, I love haunted. And again, like, Speak Now was my high school album.

I was there with friends from high school. You are so high school. That was already really, really cool. And she'd done, I have a whole, there's a whole video that one of my friends took of that song. And it's like five and a half minutes long because she did two full versions. Choruses of Haunted. Of haunted.

Right. And then she goes into exile. So like, she's in it. And you're like in haunted. And then all of a sudden, and she did the fucking smirk. Like, we should have known. Yeah.

She was really enjoying the crowd. And she goes into, I think I've seen this film before. Right. And it's just like, it's on my Instagram right now. If people want to go, like, I'll, actually, I think I'll save it in a highlight or something and go look at it.

It's also like all over TikTok. The way when she does, I think I've seen this film before, like the energy just completely shifted. And people are screaming. They're doing the Bonnie Verre parts. It felt very, very. I was curious to see, frankly, like,

if the internet had sort of gone wild over that because it felt very, like, it just felt so cool. It just felt like such a moment in the place. And I was like, I wonder if this, like, does this translate? So, can I ask something for a friend? Yes.

What was the dude quotient at this show? go? Low. Lower than like L.A. the last time you were there? Yeah. Well, I'm going to stand out in London. You're going? Yeah, I'm going to go. Okay, do you know which night?

Yeah, but I can't tell you. I'm not going, well, yes. Okay. I might go twice. I think I'm going to go in June and then I'm going to be there in August again. Crazy energy from you right now. Keep us posted. So excited. Yeah, I will. You're going to get the black dog. That's how this is going to end is you're going to get the flipping black dog. I can't believe you.

I have to be clear about what nights. I have to manifest it properly. Yeah, you have to manifest. You have to manifest. But it really, I mean, the cool thing about the, this is like such an obvious point, but I had not quite appreciated about the surprise songs, because I don't like,

sometimes I watch the live streams, but I often watch them afterwards, is just the feeling of like the moment it changes and being like, holy shit, holy shit, only shit. just so much fun. Yeah, well, I mean, it's kind of been a uniquely European phenomenon. Well, I guess it started in Asia, but like this was not something, the mashup thing she was not doing in the U.S. So we're still getting used to the way that it shapes the energy of the show. And it sounds

like maybe she played, it's nice to have a friend just to keep the energy down so she could build it up. Okay, first of the rest of the mashup. First of all, can we stop with the, it's nice to have a friend slander that's going on here. That's a good song. I like that song. Also, she played approximately four bars of It's Nice to Have a Friend. It started with It's Nice to Have a Friend. But that was, that that song was 80% Dorothea. She should have mashed it up with Girl at Home straight into Superman. That would have been very funny. I mean, it was like, because she did start with a, okay, like, I'm mounting my defense if it's nice to have a friend. I do acknowledge to you that that was not at the top of a lot of people's list. It was not why people came.

I think I texted you something like because the first night, now I'm forgetting what she did night one, but nights one and two were both like really, really, really good surprise song sets. And I was texting you and I was like, I either just like so royally played myself or this is just like, Edinburgh is just goaded. Like she's just like,

this is a sainted location. And defend it as I will when it started with like school bell rings. I was like, oh, congratulations. I played myself. Was it as cold there as it looked? It was chilly. It was a brisk. Night three was definitely the warmest concert.

Did you get any teabogers? She's wiping her nose like... Oh, she did. I do believe she blew her nose at one point. Although that might have been... We might have watched that on a video. I think it's just because she's cold, not because she's got like COVID or something, right?

Yeah, it was definitely... She sounded pretty good. It was definitely like, I was a... very like post nasal drip. It was, it's definitely like you're, you're freezing and you're melting and you're freezing and you're melting. Um, okay. It was a lot of that like walking around and, and bopping around the city. At the show, we all went like bundled. We had all sort of like changed our outfits and put layers on and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then we got there and we're like taking stuff off because first of all, it was a little bit of a warmer evening. And then second of all,

it's just a lot of people. Um, Did she wear the gloves during the torture? She did wear the gloves. And did you notice that every time she had to like take off the jacket for the, and remain in the body suit, she would say to whichever dancer was taking it like, oh my God, I don't want to give this to you. It was very funny. There's a bunch of really good clips of her, like just exasperatingly giving up the jacket

and just being like, oh, please don't I have to do this. The show must go on. I would not have wanted to take off my jacket. I have like a big like cashmere travel wrap that I just. like take on planes with me and it just like turned into my security blanket all weekend. I was just holding it. Ordering soup everywhere. Like it became a big joke that I would sit down at every restaurant and be like, what is your soup of the day?

Well, I'm really glad that you had a nice trip and that you got to see it. And did the energy of tortured poets set translate in the way that you had experienced it in the online versions? Yeah. No, it's a great, I mean, the welcome to the Black Parade part of Smok. man who ever lived definitely goes pretty hard. Well, you saw a very powerful live performance and I'm happy for you. She was singing really well. Yeah. She's been going for the high notes on the reputation stuff and she's doing it.

I don't know. I really, you know, since the last time that we talked about her, she dropped in on the comments to talk about how inappropriate it is to speculate on people. people being pregnant. She, I think, has probably read some of the comments of people being like, is she singing? Is she not? And she's made it very, very clear that she's going forward in a number of places. So I, it's a reminder that she's always paying attention. I don't think this is, I would not read any sort of like fabricated intention or, or ulterior motive into her doing this. I think she's doing this because she is doing these shows, especially somewhere as far north as Edinburgh,

where the sun sets so late, in a lot of daylight, she's doing a lot of the, hey, can we get some help over here? Hey, somebody in the crowd over there needs, yeah. We got to blind her because I think she's, she's starting to see, it's like she's seeing false ghosts in a lot of cases.

She saw the proposal. Yeah, she saw a proposal. She's talking about it. And she is doing, she did like every night. There was something like, you know, somebody come over here. We need some help. There's a thing.

Yeah, her empathetic heart is not built for lights up. We need lights down so that Taylor can get through this show in under four hours, I think. I mean, also just her spidey senses. Like, this has never been a person with blinders on. And she's just like, what information can I take in from like all corners? Also, I mean, look, like, I think it is a big, it's a huge tour. Accidents happen. She's definitely someone who I think is.

She's really conscious of like... In these European stadiums too. So there's going to be more people getting pushed and jostled. And she's, I mean, you know, the famous clip where she's asked if she's a warrior and she says, yes, I worry all the time because she mishears it. I think Taylor Swift famous warrior is worried about the fact that it's GA in the pit. Yeah. And so she's paying attention, which like I find sort of charming, but it is like, Taylor, let that be

somebody else's problem. Did you see the stuff that came out of Gov Ball? I saw a little bit. I mean, I saw, so in a minute, we're going to transition to talking about Chapel Rhone, which we've been looking forward to for a long time. And I saw her look. I saw just that, like, the crowds were huge. But that was pretty much it. Tell me about Gov Ball. I think that is the story of Gov Ball. I think the story of Gov Ball is two people, one of whom we have spoken a lot about on this podcast. And I says, expect we will speak some more about, which is Sabrina Carpenter, who now has the number one and

number two songs globally on Spotify, and they are competing with one another because the please, please, please, uh, single dropped and the video is out. And all the consternation that was happening internally about would it step on espresso, it indeed, it has not. It rocketed espresso to the number one song in the world. And now please, please, please is competing with it. So there is this moment. So there is this moment that was happening with Sabrina. But I will tell you, as we transition into talking about Chapel Rhone, that Chapel Rhone had a moment. And that I think even the Sabrina camp came back and said, whoa, Renee Rapp is there. And she, too, is having a moment.

And she is ostensibly the headliner at a lot of these festivals. But I think you're going to see, maybe you're going to see Renee stay on the head. That's actually going to be interesting. because Chaparone is an absolute rocket ship at the moment. And as campy and ridiculously insane and somewhat spinal tap-ish as it was for her to come out of a tiny apple bong dressed in full makeup as the statue of Liberty. It was a moment.

And that crowd was insane. And I think what it speaks to is we get into this today and talk about chapel and how did this happen, it speaks to the same thing that happened with Sabrina. Before these festivals, both of these artists went out on tour, and they put in the work. There is so much noise out in the music business right now, so much music being released well beyond what we have covered

on this podcast just this spring. But if all the music that had been released this spring was what we've talked about, It would be a crowded space where there'd be a lot of female pop trying to find a lane. And what these two individuals have done is go out and do the work and invest in their careers because you don't actually make a ton of money as an opening act. And in Sabrina's case, she went out and she did South America and she did Australia and she did Asia.

And I'm telling you, she did not make money moving herself and her team and her crew and her dance with everything around the Pacific Ocean. But boy, did she catch a slip stream. then when you deliver the music and you deliver the moment, everything else seems to take care of itself. And so it's been fun to see Sabrina do that right on her heels at the moment. And it is not a competition. And in particular between the two them, it's not a competition because they certainly have very different lanes. But in terms of trajectory, it feels like we have, you and I spoke about whether we were going to do chapel now or in a few weeks. And it just is absolutely time to talk about this artist because she is what is next.

As far as I can tell, she is what is next. And this moment at Gov ball was just one of those cultural things. That it is just hard to break through right now. And she took a little bit of a risk and she painted her backside green and she went out there. And people could have been making Kermit the Frog jokes this week. And instead, all they're talking about, is chapel rome. Well, and then she made her own Kermit the Frog joke, right? Like, because she then got, you know, got, there's pictures of her, then enjoy being part of the crowd. That has a little

viral moment. She's in on it. She's funny about it. I think changed some avatars to a photo of Kermit the Frog, particularly because she was like wearing the sweatshirt and kind of hiding, but obviously she's still in full like green Lady Liberty drag. And so it stands out. That just seemed really, really fun. I do think, look, like, Chappel Rohn and Sabrina Carpenter, there's, there's a Venn diagram, but it's certainly not a circle of what they're doing, of what they're trying to do. But it is interesting, particularly as they're both having, like, real moments right now that they share having been opening acts on two of the big tours from, you know, from the main pop girls this year.

obviously the Ares Tour and the Guts Tour are operating on different scales, but still, those were huge tours. There's tours with a lot of enthusiasm. And I think it's just, I like that you bring up that it is sort of an investment by an artist to go and do that because, yes, it's a huge stage and it's a huge opportunity. But I was thinking about this because, and you know, maybe we'll end up talking about this at some point. Camilla Cabo announced an album earlier today or yesterday.

and, you know, seeing stuff about it online today. And I was thinking about, you know, the long list of people who have opened for Taylor. And Taylor's obviously gotten a lot of those people right, but who have, like, really tried to make something of a moment like that and an opportunity like that. And, like, frankly, haven't. And haven't been able to use it as the same type of springboard because I think it's harder than people realize. I think we were talking about this a couple weeks ago. So I won't, like, overstated. too much. But she thinks sometimes people think, I think it's easy to see an opening act and go,

oh, she's going to get this huge Taylor Swift bump or huge Olivia Rodriguez bump. Sure. And that's possible. That's the potential reward. But guess what? Heim did not get it. Right. It really depends on the artist doing enough to get the benefits of that because you got to remember. Yeah. People don't necessarily show up in time for the opener. So often you're playing for, you know, a half full stadium. If it's outside, it's not like, it's not dark. You're not doing as much in terms of the production design. Like, it doesn't look great a lot of the time.

It's hard to make that look great. So it's, yes, you get this big stage, but you don't necessarily get the best format to sort of express who you are as an artist. So I think it's underrated how hard it is. Yeah. to make something of that. You're right. I thought Haim was terrific live,

and I think Paramour's is terrific live, and certainly they've had some spike in their streams, but they haven't integrated themselves into a cultural moment, the way that these two artists have. And as we talk about Chapel, like, where did this come from and how quickly it has happened?

We know her story is, as a artist, a young girl from Missouri, who moves to Los Angeles. She signs with Atlantic. She puts out an EP in 2,000, 2017 that nobody really pays attention to, as we know, and that she ultimately gets dropped. And I think as we're going to talk about today, the song California on this album seems to be the narrative of how she was feeling at the time. She's working a bunch of odd jobs. She's a freaking camp counselor who starts spending a bunch of time with Dan Nigro, who has been on and off with Olivia Rodriguez and creating this sort of next generation irrevering. pop rock, which is exactly what Chapel Rhone is. And I, just looking at the data, Nora, I mean, she put this record out, you know, before she put this album out, and we should, we should probably

properly introduce this album as we start to talk about the rise and fall of a Midwest princess. It's Chappel Rone's debut album, 2023, comes as she's got her second record deal after she was to Atlantic from around 2017 to 2020. Did a couple singles, did an EP sort of in this like downy indie pop. Yeah, the same label that Sabrina is on. So there may be a method to the madness here. Sure.

But had a distinctly different sound and style in those years. And, definitely seemed to be, you know, the songs did not catch on. To me, there's like an Imagine Dragons vibe that just to go back and to listen to some of that stuff, knowing just kind of like the spirit and the energy of Chapplerone now, that it just sounds wrong, man. Like, it just doesn't, it's not like something wasn't clicking. So she's just sort of languishing a little

bit. But I will say, she was languishing in terms of like feeling like it hadn't broken. out, but she'd been dropped. And but by 2020, she'd put out Pink Pony Club. And I think she was really disappointed in the performance of that song in terms of sort of streams. But it was growing all the time. And the reason that it was growing all the time is because she was out on the road. And she was doing shows, albeit smaller ones.

and clubs. But, you know, a huge, a huge part of the buildup of her was when she went out and started doing this tour and doing these themed shows. And every city was a different theme. There was, you know, sparkles and whatever. And every night was a different theme. And people were coming out and dressing like that. She did a showcase downtown New York. And there were multiple labels who were there, who were looking trying to bid for her. This is in, 2022, I think. And they walk in that room and they can tell, sure is Sunday, that there's an energy there that's just different. There's a fan base that is buzzing and that it just needs to be unlocked. And sure enough, if you look at her streams, like she had probably collectively

less than 200,000 streams a day going in 2023 before the release of this album. The album comes out, it spikes up for a very short period of time over a million. But then she goes out on tour and the streams kind of move down and they settle it, call it half a million a day. And it's half a million a day from October 2023 all the way until basically the end of February. And that is when something happens. She goes on Colbert. Making her late night debut with Red Wine Supernova from her album, The Rise and Fall of a Midwest princess, Chapel Rome, And that starts an uptick right leading into the Olivia Guts tour. And as she starts on Olivia, boom, it starts to move. And suddenly, within the course of a month, she goes from half a million streams up to almost a million and a half just on the back of the Guts tour. And then two things happen basically within a few weeks of one another. She does the tiny desk show on NPR.

Yes. Which goes massively viral. and shortly thereafter, they release good luck, babe. And in that moment in time, she's now gone over the course of six months from call it 200,000 streams a day to over 2 million streams a day. And then in the course of one month,

one month, before Coachella, this starts. She goes from about 2 million streams a day to 5.5 to 6. And that is the contracting, window of the explosion of stardom that we think about with this artist. But it goes all the way back to 2017 when she put out music that doesn't sound anything like this album that we're going to talk about today, but where she started building up that fan base and doing the work on the road to plant the seeds to just give yourself a chance for that spark. And that spark came in succession

in Colbert, the Olivia tour, the tiny desk show, dropping good luck, babe, and Bam, Coachella. And so do you think in getting from getting from $2 million to $5 million, do you think that's just people catch on, word of mouth becomes a thing? Because before then, you can sort of trace the data points, right? You can say, like, okay, the tiny desk was in, I think, March.

Like, you know when those things are, and clearly there was a response. The rest, it's just word starts to spread. I see when human beings and human energy take over. And by the way, this is data from before what just happened at Gov Ball. I mean, she's now got seven songs on the Spotify Global 200. Yeah. And it's like Taylor and maybe two other artists that have that.

So you've got all, it is happening right now. And there is no putting that lightning back in a bottle. And this is just human beings sort of accelerating and unifying. as best they can. And that's what's wonderful about music in these moments is if it doesn't become monocultural, for a lot of people, it becomes a unifying experience. The live event is that way. We're all sort of reveling in the same thing and we're all chemically wired to be together inside an event and inside a venue. That's what was so fun to watch about the show that you were at on Sunday night and the Gov ball performance was these are just thousands and thousands of human beings. The differences

between them melt away and they all unify around one thing. And what's happening in ever increasingly large sections of human beings experience is they're uniting around Chaparone. And this is going to continue to get bigger and bigger and bigger. So we always talk about biggest hit. And this is an interesting one because if we do this, the normal way we do it within the context of the rise and fall of a Midwest princess, which good luck babe is not on. It becomes an interesting question because I think you can go a couple different ways with it. So I'm curious what you have for biggest tip.

Well, I've got right now Red Wine Supernova because just from a streaming perspective, you know, Good Luck Babe is in the 170 million. Red Wine Supernova is number two pushing 100 million. But you cannot come away from that show at Gov Ball if you watched Renee Rapp's post, if you watched the stuff that went viral and think anything other than hot to go is this generation's YMCA waiting to happen. Yeah.

It feels like the more that she plays live and she's got a number of festivals still in front of her, the more that song is just going to blow up. Well, and that was the first thing that, like, I had listened to, like, I remember that I'd listen. to like casual and I kind of been like vaguely aware of chapel before this but I think for me like tiny desk was huge in taking her from someone I was aware of to someone where I was like oh I'm I'm in

like I just felt you know she sounds great you get a sense of how great her voice is I think that the sort of dueling the drag persona coupled with the fact that she just seems cool and she's there behind the desk and she's got like a little camera and she wants to document it and you kind of even though she is, you know, she performs in character. Very much.

And you're not seeing, you know, Kaylee Amstutz, which is her real name. Like you're not experiencing that person as a performer. Well, I mean, that's the Midwest for you. But you get a little bit of it. What I thought was so fun about that, the tiny desk was like, you sort of got a

hint of both, right? Because it is so intimate. It is so small. So I was really in there. But then when she when she was opening for Olivia, I just remembered. And this is why I was sort of asking how you went about biggest tip. Because on a technical level, it is definitely Redwine Supernova, which I love and which I think is such an interesting. Like, it's so chapel in the sense that it's so hooky. It's so like that's a hit. Right. when you think about like what does a hit sound like? Oh, yeah. It has,

it's fun. It has an audience sing-along built in. It has like the little cheeky parts. It's memeable. It's quotable. Like it has all of that. And it also has so much of what she does so well, which is,

you know, writing from a queer perspective, writing about sort of like hookup culture and situationships. Like it's very, it's very chapel. It's a very chapel rowan song. And it's also a song that sounds like something. a bazillion people want to sing along two together.

Yes, which they do. And this is, you know, there can be more than one hit on an album, and I think that is certainly true of this one. It's what's happening, yes. Hot to Go was the first song where, like, you would see TikToks from the Guts tour, where it was like PSA, get there early. And, like, all the people doing the,

dance, you know, all the jokes about like, this is a cold. Yeah. Yes. And I just felt like that was a moment. So even though like, I don't know, I feel like I want to, I want to talk about that song in this context because I do think when we talk about, you know, The Rise, right? The Hot to Go is really pivotal to that, even if it hasn't quite had the streaming numbers of somebody. Yeah. I mean, Listen, it's got two-thirds of the streams of Red Wine Supernova, but I think by when this is all said and done, it's going to have the longest legs. I think if you were, you know,

buying the rights to an individual song, you'd go hot to go if you were thinking about a 20-year horizon. Well, it's also, like, I go on TikTok and I see people making their cats do the hot-to-go dance, right? That's what's perfect about it. It's built for this exact moment. It's built for the Charlie DeMilio quick dance to a song. There are literally instructions for how,

to do it. It's like if the macarena was around for TikTok, like it would have gone even more. It's just perfect. It's like if the macarena could serve. Yeah, exactly. I want to give an honorable mention. It does. I want to give an honorable mention to Pink Pony Club because that is an anthem. And it matters to that core fan base that, by the way, is not going to be particularly happy about what is about to happen to their icon because their icon has been theirs and very much theirs. And what is, I think, important about chapel's rise right now is, look, you can draw a through line from Madonna to Brittany

to Katie and Gaga to Kaylee slash Chaparone right now with one exception, and that is that she is overtly queer. and she is making queer love normal love. And that's what I think is magical about what she's doing in this moment. But I think the fan base that is coming to her now, and I am relatively new being on the bandwagon, is going to have to respect the ownership is the wrong word,

but the investment that that current fan base feels because what she is doing for the queer love. community is very important, I think. They just covered this on hacks. It's a whole Hax episode in season three about this. Yes. So there's going to be people who feel a little bit betrayed. Like, get off my mountain.

Get out of here. Like, I don't think there's a lot of people who want to see me rolling into a chaparone show right now. And I understand and respect that. But there's also something to be said for, you know, the queer community having someone who is in that lineage, who is, out and proud and teaching the world

that, again, queer love is accessible and normal. Also, I mean, look, that's a very special moment. That's a really, that through, the through line of pop stars engaging with queer culture. Not new at all. Not remotely new and is a huge, is a huge through line in the history of pop music, right? Like, is a really, really, really critical foundational piece.

You know, as you said, Madonna, Brittany, Katie, Gaga, like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Stars in the 70s and 80s. I don't mean to erase that at all. But there is something here. Well, and in part because while, look, like, this is not to say that anyone was like, you know, outwardly exclusionary or whatever, but like you don't,

you don't see lesbian representation in those dynamics in the way that you see, like, because a lot of, a lot of that is straight women, pop stars. engaging with queer communities mostly made up of gay men. Right. And, you know, does that say something about relationships between straight women and gay men that have to do with sort of like, you know, women interacting with men in a way where there's a safety? And like, a lot of that is really joyful and wonderful. But when we talk about that musical history, which is such a huge component of the history of pop music, there's not anywhere near as much representation for queer women. And it's very cool that this is happening at the same time as, you know, maybe Renee Rapp's moment came a little bit earlier and came probably at around the time when people were booking these festivals.

And then now that they're actually happening and she might be on the headlining stage, but it's actually Chappell or Sabrina who are having the moments. But I mean, chapels move to a different stage at Bonnaroo for this upcoming weekend for that very reason. And by the way, contractually, that's very hard to do. There's some artist in front of her who was like, yeah, I don't want to be disappointing a fan base because I'm playing the big stage while Chapel's playing the small one. So it's already happening. Well, and good, because, I mean, even from a safety perspective, like, a lot of people want to see Chabell right now. Yeah, it's the equivalent of what happened in the 2010s when artists would move their release dates

to get the hell out of the way of Adele because they knew that they'd get blown over. I mean, that's what's starting to happen on the festival. full circuit. But I think you nailed it. And I think, I just think, I hope that after the feeling of, hey, this is my small party, all these people are coming in and, you know, taking a piece of what is mine, I hope that we can settle into a place of excitement that the community has launched one of their own overtly and openly into what I think is going to be superstardom. Now, look, it's early. This is her first album. Let's everybody take it. take a breath. But I think as we go through this album and when we talk about best songs,

which we can roll into now, I mean, there is not a skip on this record until maybe very deep into it. It just keeps going. And just when I think she's out of ideas and we're like rolling into, you know, I don't know, you get to hot to go. My kink is karma. I'm at kaleidoscope and I'm like, okay, maybe now, you know, she's sort of running out of ideas and then boom, nope, here's a queer anthem and pink pony club. Like it's just, she just keeps going on this record and doesn't run out of ideas. And then when you look at what she's dropped following this, which is by a mile her biggest song so far, which is good luck, babe, it is an indication that there is a lot more to come. So I, you know, I don't want to overplay it and I'm happy to eat crow down the road. But all of the social buzz, that you look at behind the scenes for an artist, all of those sort of fan barometers that aren't just about Instagram followers,

but getting deeper into, you know, how many views per post, how many likes per post? What's the ratio of followers to likes? Those are off the charts. There is nothing, it is Taylor Swift, Zach Bryan,

and Chapel Rhone right now in all the data. So that's what's exciting. Dream. Absolute dream. And who says no, honestly? But that's where we are with the buzz and the energy around this artist right now. It's really exciting. So one thing about Pink Pony Club, just because we're talking about that, and we can, I'll wrap this into best song. It's not my ultimate pick, but I do think that it's a contender. And there is something so special about that because that actually, this is the one song that's on, right? of a Midwest princess that came out when she was still signed to Atlantic. And at least from what she said in interviews, sort of a push pull where like her team is into it, but the powers that be are less supportive and she just doesn't quite feel like it's getting the support that she wants for it.

And to me, this is the song where it sounds like she lands on the aesthetic idea. And lands on who she is as an artist and what she wants to do, at least in this era. Because you have, like, it is an anthem and it is an anthem inspired by gay bars in West Hollywood where she said she found a lot of creative inspiration, particularly when she was struggling to find career inspiration and musical inspiration. and it just has all the chapel rhone things. It is anthemic.

It is a tight, smartly written hooky pop song, but it is specific. It paints all the visuals. It tells a story. It does that, you know, I mean, not to say that Taylor Swift is the only person who's ever done this,

but like she has a swiftian touch with dialogue when she's, you know, what her mom's going to say and all of that. I don't make my mom a girl. It's going to cause a scene She sees her baby girl So I do think that's a special song She's a little confused about geography in this song

Santa Monica not that close to West Hollywood I am glad you brought that up Because I was interested in that as well There's like a stray Santa Monica Reference that comes out of absolutely nowhere But like that's fine I'm that's fine Yeah

There's a lot of pink pony clubs in West Hollywood. They're not that as many in Santa Monica, but it doesn't matter. This is an anthem. And I think you're right. That's that she espresso. Like, that's fine.

Yeah. But this one, this song is always going to be for the core. And it will always be theirs. And I think that's why it comes across in such a special way live. Well, and it also,

I mean, this is like a cool thing about chapel right now. But this is also like, it's a little scary because, it's just all of this is happening right now. Like when we were talking about espresso, I think I remember we were talking about just the number of albums that Sabrina's already put out.

Like she's just released so much music. This is Chabell's first album, right? And like that song, which we're talking about as sort of the explosion point of the artistic perspective, the persona, just the sort of ideology behind it that works, it's not, it's 20-20. Like, it's not that long ago. Yeah.

So all of this has this feeling of happening in real time that I think is very kind of... Well, that's what's sort of electric about it. On the other hand, she's 26. Olivia's 21. Ancient. Well, not ancient, but ancient in terms of, you know, the run of stars that I laid out, the Britannies of the world, the Madonna's.

Like, she has really her closest comparison point. from a sort of historical lineage standpoint is Gaga. And it's clear because of the giving zero fucks, of the willingness to take like public risks that might be perceived as completely fucking weird, but where the core is like, this person is cool as hell, right? But also like the pounding the pavement, right?

Like Gaga was, you know, plastering, plastering subway construction. And sunglasses and going anywhere and doing the number. Yes. And doing any show that would have her and putting the work in. Yeah. Now, both of these artists at this point are locked into some commitments for the next, when I say both. I mean, Chapel and Sabrina are locked into some commitments, I suspect, for the next six months, six to nine months,

that they will honor for good karma reasons. But that, you know, again, under normal circumstances, Chapel would no longer be the third billing on a festival, on a go forward basis. And Sabrina wouldn't be appearing on some show in Germany. But like that's, you know, they're going to continue to sort of work their way through those things. And that's the humility that pays off down the road for sure. But the trajectory is there. But coming back to Best Song, Nora, I mean, talk to me.

I think you want me to say coffee. And I have to say that coffee is where I actually lost my shit listening to this album. I knew you. I wasn't going quite that far with it, but I was like, this is so Nathan Harwood Core. No, because I heard coffee and I was like, holy fuck, I've heard the whole range. This, I am four songs in, and I have heard the range. This is a star, and it doesn't matter. Like, if she can sing this and write this, after Red Wine fucking Supernova and after Feminon

like, like, and after, yeah, I mean, it just, it is a, after midnight, right? Like, probably the horniest introduction to a record we've heard in a lot of, long time in the best way. But coffee, I was just like, wow, she's got it. And that's it. That is not my favorite song in this record. I can go down the hole on a bunch of stuff. I can get bent around the ax on a bunch of songs. But then I find myself over-thinking it. Can I guess? Can I guess? Can I guess? Yes. Yes. Is it casual? So I think my favorite lyric is going to be casual. that is a song that is remarkably Liz Fair to me and I love

I love the writing of that song but I just on this album I am not going to overthink it the best song is Red Wine Supernova. It is. Talk to me more about what you love about it. Baby I will because I really want to. The Bed Talk, it just has the most singable chorus it has the most singable verse.

It gets a very nice my tight. It gets right into it. And I just think looking at it live, it does everything it was meant to be. It kicks right in after the sort of, holy shit, who is this opening number of feminine nominon? I just, I can listen to that song without ever getting sore in the ears. And like every breath you take by the police is one of those songs. So by Peter Gabriel is one of those songs.

You know, landslide or songbird by Flewwood Mac. is one of those songs. Thriller, but Michael Jackson is one of those songs. I just like, or human nature is really that Michael Jackson song. But like, just to go back, like, and I think this falls in that category where it's just always going to be fun and awesome. I mean, this is where I think the point that you brought up about kind of the trajectory from here on out and what happens and what are the dynamics when someone who is really, really,

when an artist who's really special to a smaller community of fans, were on board really early have to experience or get to experience that person really breaking on this huge scale. Why I think chapel is an interesting, yeah, like an interesting case for that because in some ways what she does so well is make songs that sound like indelible hits. but also at the same time she has this very like left of center you know often pretty body lyrically

sensibility she's a queer woman in a culture that is not always tolerant and so in a weird way I'm like when we talk about you know how big is she going to get like what's next where does this come I'm kind of like I think this says more

it's going to say more about us than chaperone, I think, in a funny way, because, like, what she's really good at, and she's talked a lot about the making of this album being, having as a through line, like, let's make songs that make people want to dance. Let's make songs that, like, groups of people want to scream sing and get together around. And that's pretty akin to the ethos behind to just write. writing a pop hit, like writing a banger. So she's doing in some ways this like very right in the center of the bull's eye project

and she's doing it really, really, really well. But it's coming from this person who is someone who like not everyone in mainstream America is going to have time for and is going to have, you know, an appropriate reaction to. Yeah. So it's an interesting test case, I suppose. pose, but like, when we talk about sort of how high up the ladder of pop stardom she can get, I'm kind of like, this is a test of us because you listen to a song like Red Wine Supernova

and go like, oh, she's Elton John, you know, like, she's like, she can do the thing. Right. So I think that's- Are there other candidates on this record for you that you think of the best song? I'm with you. But the other two that I have down as, sort of like canon contenders are casual and my kink is karma. Yeah. Yeah, I thought you might go there. Let's talk my kink as karma.

Tell me what about that song is intriguing to you. I love the take a walk on the wild side part of the bridge. It's hard when you know that you're caught and you're getting pissed off. It's getting me off. It's high. And at that moment in the album, again, you think she's out of ideas, but it's like, holy crap. This thing is crushing this song. Well, and that's also one where like you get the kind of indie rocker vibes. And obviously, you know, we'll talk about collaborators. We can start doing it now.

She's working with Dan Nygro, who obviously also works with Olivia Rodrigo. And he's got that background. And I think that's a song where they really, you know, they embrace the guitar. It gets sort of harder. And I love the contrast between different parts of the verse. And then the chorus, the way that the song sort of kicks into different gears, I think is so cool. I also just think this is tap. Yeah, go ahead. The bass, just the vibes of the bass is very reminiscent of Cruel Summer. And I wonder if there's that thread in my Ginkas karma that gets you going. Is it possible that like we've all been just sort of way too worked up about this for so long and it's just like, Dan Nigro fucking loves Cruel Summer. He's just like, this is the greatest song I've ever heard.

has worked itself into my DNA. I cannot shake it. I think about it day and night. I love you. Ain't that the worst thing you've ever heard. And like, we just don't need to overthink it any more than that. Dan Nigro's just spawning cruel summer children around the musical universe. He's just like, it's haunted him. He closes his eyes at night and all he, all he hears is is cruel summer. I mean, I can relate. So. Yeah, for sure. No, but this thing stands on its own. It's awesome. But I also think, I think this is actually, this is true of both casual and my king is karma. There's just really vivid, lyrical writing on both of these songs about situations that are... Knee deep in the passenger seat.

Yes. From casual, yes. And it's so good because she's like, she's writing really effectively about like dating in situationships and these things that like don't obviously. have the high romantic stakes of like end game love and heartbreak, but navigating the politics of all of the relationships that are like in between a first date and that is so, it's, I mean, I hate to even say that it's modern because of course that stuff has existed since the dawn of time, but it's, it feels really smart and savvy and like it's emotionally potent, but it's not heavy. Like, it's not bogged down. I also must shout out the casual music video, which is two mermaids

in the style of aquamarine, which is just a really, really important movie to me and my childhood and young adolescents. So, where we are, big into that. Have you seen Aquamarine? No. Is it like Bridgeton? Like the last, I'm like trying to get you to watch Bridgerton and Aquamarine. No, I'm not doing it. I don't know. Aquamarine is like kind of a good movie, Nathan. I'm sure Bridgeton is a good show. Who has time for this? 2006? Yeah, 2006. What a time. I mean... It's enough already.

Anna Roberts? Sarah Paxton? Jojo? Joe. Joe. Come on. Jojo in Aquamarine? I'm exhausted by this conversation. We were so blessed. Is there anything else across this? I mean, I think everything, a lot of these other songs have really great moments. I like Feminine Ammon. It's the perfect show opener.

Totally. Strings that start. Her screaming, can you play a song with a fucking beat is awesome? You're like immediately like, who the fuck is this? Um, can you play a song with a fucking beat? Well, it's also like a good kind of callback to the career trajectory because in her previous iteration, like when she was doing like much more downbeat music. and much more like sort of dragging, like, songs that lacked a fucking beat.

So there's something very satisfying. Yeah, this is an interlocking arts kid. I mean, she definitely is an interlocking arts kid. Like, we need to just, somebody should just sit up there 24-7 and just pull those kids out and make albums because it's one of them's going to be Josh Grobin and one of them's going to be Chaparone and one of them, I mean, like, they just, there is just incredible creativity that flows to that place. And this does sound like the launch for sure.

I love the sentence. One of them's going to be Josh Grobin and one of them is going to be Chapel Row. Again, you never know what you're going to get, but like, you know you're going to get something. If you can't spot the Josh Groban at the table, you're the Josh

Groban. Okay. Super graphic, ultra-modern girl. I love. It's like if express yourself and Funky Town had an even gayer baby or

something is that song. And said fugly jeans. And he was wearing these fugly jeans. Yeah. It's terrific. Fugly jeans are an epidemic. So someone needed to say it. I literally just look down. I probably am part of that problem. But that isn't, it's a good, fun song and it's great. You can hear some of the derivation in it. Picture you, John Mayer called it a perfect song on his

Instagram story, which probably is because it seems to be about masturbation as much as anything else, but that probably is a reason to say that it's not the best song on the record. How do you feel about picture you? It's giving a lot of creep by Radiohead to me. Okay. Which I kind of can't. Like, I think quite possibly intentionally. And she's talked, and I wonder if this is sort of a reflexive thing to what a lot of the discourse around Olivia has become, or at least involved.

But she's talked pretty openly in interviews about a part of her process with Dan being bringing him songs and saying, I want the drums to sound like this. I want this part to sound like this. think this is really cool and kind of naming it and saying like that's part of my creative process. You know, there is sometimes an element of like she's doing songs almost in the style of, you know, like Red Wine Supernova is is a callback, like sounds in certain parts like a callback to a song almost from another era, right? like a huge kind of sweeping, almost ballad, but then packaged as like this thing that becomes a banger.

Yeah. It feels like she sort of, she tries on styles. And I do think that she notes that when she talks about how she makes music and how she works with Dan. And I wonder if that has to do with kind of some of the Olivia stuff. But I also think that it's probably true for her. So I can even see that being. intentional. But I'm, it's not my favorite, but I don't. And after midnight, after midnight,

I love it's, I think it's in the perfect position on this album. It follows red wine. It's like, here we go. There's more hormonal music, but now with disco, it's awesome. It sort of gets you into, okay, here we go. And I think the transition from after midnight to coffee is kind of brilliant. That's where I, I mean, the thing about coffee, it may be, it sounds a lot like you'll be back from Hamilton. I'll meet you for coffee. Because if we have wine and say that you want. You'll be back soon you'll see. You remember you belong to me.

Like where the king is singing. But it's gorgeous. So I'm worried that that's why I really, like. putting a lot of theater kids in... I know. Interlocking. Some stuff's going to sound like Hamilton. It is...

That's just what... That's the cost of doing business, babe. But I think after midnight might get overlooked just a little bit because of the position that it is in on the album, but it's like perfectly positioned. It just transitions from red wine to coffee so well. And it's, again...

I can't say that song, like, really grabs me. It doesn't. No, it's just... But it's fun. hell. It's really fun. Yeah. No, it's, it's fun. It's just there are so many really fun songs. Yeah. That it feels a little, like, I don't think there are any bad songs on this album. I think there are a few JV songs, and then there are a lot of R. City songs. After Midnight, to me, is in the JV category. Okay. Well, what are you cutting then?

I thought about picture you. Because fuck you, John Mayer. Yeah, yeah. But I think ultimately, I don't need kaleidoscope. Love is a kaleidoscope. How it works I'll never know.

Really? I am surprised. He gasps. He's aghast. I am clutching pearls. And you're not cutting kaleidoscope. No, I mean, I think this is a great. sort of are we lovers, are we friends, but with a lot of imagery, the turn to the left, turn to the

right, the shifting colors. It's sort of everything about an ambiguous close relationship that feels like, again, it's through the lens of queer love that just, I really found it accessible and beautiful. I'd love the, I'd love to see them try. see them try you know to write the song about you as well as I do there's some of that I really enjoyed kaleidoscope

melodically it didn't blow me away but I just felt like this is an important expression of her and her view of relationship and love that needs to be on this album I think she reads so well in the specific

in in specific details that the metaphor I'm less less I'm less grabbed by Chapel Roan writing and metaphor than I am in Chapel Roan writing out, you know, the vignette in the car. And like, she's just got such a precise ability to do that. Yeah, I can see how coming out of Feminine Amanon,

Red Wine Supernova, After Midnight, Coffee, Casual, Supergraphic, hot to go, kink is karma. Then you get to picture you, which is slowed down. and then kaleidoscope, you're like, maybe we're out of the fun and this party's over. And then it's like, punch right in the genitals for Pink Pony Clove. And that's where I was like,

holy crap. Like, it's a queer anthem song number 11. So I hear you from an energy perspective. That's probably the lowest moment on the album. Guilty pleasure is the least listened to song. And I kind of like the chorus, but the rest of it doesn't make me go back to it as much.

Does Guilty Pleasure fall on your JV list? No. I really like Guilty Pleasure. I really think, like, yeah, it's sort of easy to forget about because it's at the end of the album and there is really an embarrassment of riches here in terms of songs that I just think have, you know, deliver on their promise to be bops. But... But it stays for you.

Would you have cut California if the lyrical... you know, if it wasn't so important about telling the story of her getting dropped and being sort of desperate in California, almost about to give up. Like, I'm musically that one, I don't, I'm not like, oh my God, this is the most beautiful song. Yeah, I just, I find the story really captivating. I'm, I'm with you that it doesn't. I actually think, um, there's pieces of the melody and guilty pleasure that are, that to me are really grabby. And it's true that California, that's probably less true. I just, I do appreciate the story of it a lot.

I guess those two kind of go in an in-between space. I think the true, like, the, and obviously there's degrees within this as well, but like, feminine nominon, red wine supernova, coffee, casual, super graphic ultra-modern girl,

hot to go, my kink is karma, pink pony club, and naked in Manhattan, which I also really love. Yeah, I do too. Like, damn, like, everything, what did I just name? Like eight songs or something? Those are all really, really, really good songs.

Yeah. Like those are songs that I think are going to have legs that I'm going to want to keep coming back to that have lyrics that I'm really invested in, that have melodies that I'm really invested in, that have production that I'm really invested in, that are just like delivering on a lot of levels. Yeah, there just is not a lot of filler on this thing,

and it's 14 songs. And that's for me, you could see six or six or six, real singles here that make an impact. And I think that's the reason seven songs right now are sitting inside the Spotify top 200. And again, you know, I'm talking about this as like a middle-aged straight white guy in terms of its accessibility. And I think, you know, there's just one perspective and one filter. It certainly wasn't originally written for me. But what's so cool about this music is that it is going to connect with a broader set of people, even if they don't,

understand the layers of what it's really about. Just on the surface at the most superficial level, these things are fucking bobs. Well, but that's why I would challenge you to not like, and again, I think this is going to be the test case. There are certainly a number of different perspectives on Chapele-Rone, and some of them have layers that, you know, maybe you or I listening to this music don't, don't access. But like, I would challenge you to not say that this is not for you, right? Because, like, these are straight down the middle. bops executed at an incredibly high level. And the beauty of that is that it is for everyone.

And that tension is definitely going to be present in the next chapter of Chaple. It is obviously for me because I've been blasting. I just drove two hours to watch my brother play the U.S. Open with it playing in a convertible Jeep trucks. I probably almost got jumped in North Carolina for playing the Chapo Roan record. A convertible Jeep.

A convertible Jeep. truck. I'm trying to understand what that even is. Well, I can't really tell you, but I rented it. I'm driving one right now. It's a convertible Jeep truck. Like a lot of cars were rented and that's what they gave you. It was that or like a Kia Sorrento that looked at me like sadness, the character in the movie that's coming out right now. Sadness with headlights. Do you have any notable Easter eggs? You know, it's not so much an Easter egg as the conspiracy theory. Like, this was where I wanted to talk about the fact that she's been somewhat open, albeit in like teen vogue or something.

Hey, that she's playing a character. She's playing a character. And she's channeling a lot of fantasy. And in some cases like sexuality that isn't part of her natural everyday being into this character. And I'm fascinated by that. Because I wonder with the. explosion that's happening right now. Like, how long can that go on?

Like, can she do this forever? Is there, can the schizophrenia continue, or will it ultimately catch up with her? How long is she going to be comfortable playing this character? I mean, she was very political on stage at Gov Ball, and I don't think she is playing a character in that situation. But she's allowing herself to be extreme. and it is, you know, being well received and catching on, and it's going to ultimately have its controversial moments

and have its, you know, divisive moments and all these things. But just from a authentic creation, you know, artists are at their best when they just create for themselves. That is what she's doing here. Does she need this projection of parts of herself and invention of parts of somebody who she's not to exist? Or will this character who is Chaparone evolve over time? Well, I mean, I think the fact that she is, is, and I don't think that she describes what she's doing as, you know, like obviously she's not a drag queen.

She's not performing. Like, it is sort of beside drag culture and she has a lot of drag queens open for her when she's on tour and is, you know, versed in those spaces. But that's not exactly what she's doing. But there are some, the costume component has a relationship with that that I think is. important to the story of Chapel Roan becoming Chaparone as an artist, and that she comes by very honestly and that I think is really powerful. I think

she's also talked about it as something, and this is one of the things that I'm thinking about when I say that all of this is really happening in real time, but being a way that she feels like she can protect herself and protect herself from just like the way that fandom works and also the vulnerability

of making well, and like of making any kind of art, but also particularly, like, I'm trying to remember, I think it was an interview in for Vulture that she did around the time that this album was released. But where she was talking about the specific thrust of making this album process having to do with like, let's really try to hit the middle of the bull's eye in terms of like huge pop bangers. with her particular sensibility.

But like, to make those songs, which, and this is what I thought she just talked about in a way that was really interesting, it's sort of like, pop songs are corny.

Like pop songs are often kind of embarrassing. And like, you have to get past the layer of like, oh God, I couldn't possibly sing hot like Papa John because that's the dumbest thing

I've ever heard. Yeah. But then once you get past that layer, it's actually really brilliant and fun and cool. And it's a thing that like it makes people smile. It becomes really fun for everyone. And having a character to say like, you know, Kaylee's not doing this. Chapel's doing this being kind of how she gets there. Look, she's the hit.

That's the difference. She is the hit. Yeah. And the songs are vehicles for accessing her. But Chapel Rhone is the hit. And so I think it'll, I mean, you know, we'll see because I, you know, Gaga was the Gaga era where she was always in some kind of costume. You never really saw her for her.

It's an interesting thing to think about, particularly because the way that we see Gaga, and I don't mean perceive, but like the way that Gaga presents herself now, at least some of the time is like as such a traditionalist sitting at the piano. But I mean, Gago went years, right, in the basically full-on persona era of her career. So I think it'll last. And I think it'll help her, honestly. Like I'm less worried about, you know, is there a fissure between the real self and the performer self? I think it's armor. Well, to that end, are there any Easter for you? This isn't so much an Easter egg, but it's just like a little, I just, I mean, I just want to shout out the moment

in naked in Manhattan where she, you know, she's writing about like one of her first romantic sexual experiences with a woman. And I, like, this is just such an example of what she's so good at.

Talking about watching mean girls and we both had a crush on Regina George. Yeah. Like, when you... I knew you weren't going to get through this pod without talking about that. When we go to the show, don't tell school of pop hit making, we should teach this line. Like, that's just, it's just clever.

And it's like, she's building, you know, it's both the sort of like Y2K touch points and references, but then also the way that she's, you know, weaving in the fact that she's having a relationship with another woman in so cleverly. just, I'm just like, I'm, I'm in awe. Yeah. So I'll call that an Easterite because I just wanted to force in a point on it. Well, we're not at peak, we're not at peak chapel because she's just got a ton of runway in front of her. If it's not the coming out of a tiny little apple at guble, and again, like, if you haven't seen spinal tap, go back and look at it, like, there's a mix up where they drop a tiny little prop on stage because they sort of mislabel, they think it's supposed to, to be made in inches instead of feet.

And so they dropped this tiny little replica of Stonehenge instead of the giant one they were supposed to. And that was sort of what it reminded me of. Like on this giant stage with this giant crowd, she came out of an apple that was like half the size of a human being. But all well and good. It totally played online and that was great. She has quite a TikTok repertoire where she's high as shit in her parents' bathroom,

talking about all kinds of stuff that is definitely worth toggling through. but I think the main point for me is we are not going to peak chat. Again, dream blunt rotation. Like, it has been established. Yeah. Do you have a next album appetizer? I think it's good luck, babe. But I have to say, I don't know that I hear this as a different or new era.

I think she's a pop princess and is just making stuff. She's got this history of just putting out songs. And I don't think right now that they're thinking about the next album. I think album shmalbom, like, just put stuff out. And good luck, babe, was part of those tailwinds that, boom, took her to those streaming levels that she's at now from where we talked about she was. You know, she's 26, but she's got a ton of runway. This is Gaga 2.0. As far as I'm concerned, that's the best analogy, but different in that she is in a moment in time where she is a little bit more, I think, accessible to her fan base. There's less of a wall.

And that's not a knock on Gaga. I just mean the sort of evolution of standum and even technology. And I think also from a just music release standpoint, she can just keep putting out songs. And if she wants to collect them down the road and put them on an album, great. But it's time for her to go out and start selling tickets. And that's what's happening on the festival circuit this summer.

I think that's all right. I think that's all like I'm on board with all that. I'm just going to read you a post from the chapel row now, account on Twitter yesterday. Producer Jack Antonoff has followed Chauvel Rohn on Instagram. Well, he's never getting her away from Dan Nigro, at least not for a while, because what they're making matters. I think I agree.

I think I agree. Did you already tell me your best lyric? No, but I'll, I mean, do you think you can guess it? I'm going to let you say it out loud. Oh, I heard you like magic. I've got a wand and a rabbit. It's incredible. It's incredible.

That's not the one I thought you were going for. Oh, did you, you thought I was going casual? I thought you were going casual. I thought you were going knee deep in the passenger seat. It's, I mean, it's also, like, there are so many contenders, but I just, I just find that's so funny. Like, it just makes me laugh every single time. Mine is actually the Red One Supernova lyric where, in the first first she says she did it right there out on the deck,

put her canine teeth in the side of my neck. She did it right there out on the deck. Put her canine teeth in the side of my neck. And there's just something about the rhythm of those lyrics with what's happening in the song and then bang, she goes into the catchy part of the verse or pre-chorus before boom into the massive chorus. There's something about that that just sets the table

and is so visual for me of this, coming out party for Chapel Rhone. It's, I mean, I could bring up the, even like, dude, can you play a song with a fucking beat? And having, having it come back around. Yeah. And having the song kind of go up a notch every time it does. That's great.

I think even the spoken parts of, of super graphic ultra-modern girl are just, like, and so I take him to this bar. This man wouldn't dance. He didn't ask a single question. It's just right. Like it's just so spot on the like, he didn't ask a single question. Like that's just so,

it's so what someone would say talking about a shitty date. Like I'm, I'm so into it. But no, I think, I think I've got a wand and a rabbit. It was just really, it really,

I suppose I shouldn't say tickled me because that's probably not something I want to put on a recorded podcast. But too late now, now I suppose. So let's create the album. This album is an A. This feels like a generational coming out, both in terms of like making queerness accessible, but also like finding a lane of ridiculousness and giving zero fucks to then explode on a world stage.

Like I really think that this is the next big pop star and that she's part of that lineage that we discussed and that hot to go is poker face and then some. and that she's going to pave the way for a lot of artists they're going to come after her and that quite possibly, at least for the moment, that she's going to be the biggest queer pop star ever. It's really cool to see, I think one of the tough things about a moment like this for someone who does represent a marginalized community is like you get all the weight of representation. like all of a sudden, you know,

if she has so many eyes on her, it's like, Chaparone stands for all lesbians or all gay people. And that's too much for anyone. And it shouldn't, that's not fair. That's not smart.

That's not right. So I think, like, it's not about that. But it is about seeing someone. It's just really fun to see an artist succeed and succeed in like a mainstream.

pop girl way by finding their authentic self. And she had, like, it's so explicit with her because she had an era where, like, she was trying to do this thing that was working for other people in pop music at the time and it just didn't work for her and she's trying to force it and it just didn't work and it wasn't her. Like, you can hear that it's not her. And she really, you know, she tried on different styles and she found things that were meaningful to her. And to see that work and click is just really, really cool. And I think this

album is such a, you know, I gave it an A too because it's a really, really excellent, you know, we grade, we grade within the context of what a particular project is trying to accomplish, right? Like, we grade these things on our own terms. But for someone in her position, this is like, it's textbook, but it's sort of more magical than that. So it's a great record, and I'm so excited to see what's next for chapel. Yeah, and I think what we talk about today, I mean, you know, we graded hit me hard, hit me soft, Billy's record this spring. And I think you could probably say that Billy, in a lot of ways, is maybe the biggest

overtly queer pop star who's out there right now. And so I don't mean to suggest that that's where this is all going. But in terms of the, that that is the, that is the, that is the, potential that's here. And that's what's exciting is that she has from all of the data, but then also just the gut check. Go online and look at the crowd. Look at the videos of the crowd. And you can see it. You can feel it through the screen. And the people who were there could feel it in person. There just is an energy right now that does not happen that often. And I think you might have said that Olivia Rodriguez, you know, there just are very few artists who

break like this. And all of the leading indicators suggest that we got a live one here. Now, what she does with it and how she nurtures her career from here and the choices that she makes musically and creatively are going to dictate whether she actually cements herself in that long line. But we have rushed this one out because, as you said, right now under your nose, it is happening. So pay attention. very cool. All right. I think that does it for chapel for now, though I'm sure there will be more chapel content that we'll want to cover in the future. Before we go, Nathan, I do feel, and we're recording this on a Wednesday, a Wednesday evening. And this podcast will probably come out after this is taken place. So this is a chance for us to end up getting egg in our faces. But I just

have to acknowledge that probably by the time this episode is out, the 100th show of the Ares Tour will have been performed in Liverpool, England, you know, not an unnoteworthy city in music history, on the 13th of the month. And I guess I'm going to ask you

if you have any predictions, like anything that you think is going to happen in that show. But really more than that, I'm just acknowledging that like all hell could break loose and that we have no idea what's going to happen. Clown. Clown.

Clown. You're clowning. Do you really think that I'm like... Yes. I don't know. Joke's going to be on you and she like resurrects John Lennon and they do speak now together.

I agree. It will be on me. Okay. Well, we'll have to see. This has been every single album. As always, I'm Nora Prince Yachti. He's Nathan Hubbard. Thank you.

to the fabulous Kai McMullen for producing this episode. And we'll talk to you soon.