Every Single Album - 'The Secret of Us' | Every Single Album: Gracie Abrams

Episode Date: June 27, 2024

Nora and Nathan discuss the second studio album from Gracie Abrams: 'The Secret of Us.' They then talk about Taylor Swift's influence on and close relationship with Abrams, as well as whether that's helping or hurting Abrams's music (1:00). Later, they get into how her songs feel the strongest when her lyrics are plain-spoken (39:37), and how, with this album, it seems like Abrams is still trying to find her distinct musical sound (47:46). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, my name is Dave Gonzalez, and I haven't read any of the books in George R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire. I'm Joanna Robinson and I've read every book in Georgia R. Martins, a song of ice and fire. And I'm Neil Miller and I have also read those very heavy books. Years ago, we hosted a Game of Thrones podcast called A Storm Spoilers, and we're thrilled to head back to Westrose to cover the second season of House of the Dragon on the Trial by Content feed. We'll be using our book knowledge to dive deep into each episode and answer your lingering questions. So send us a raven every week to Trial by Content at GM. mail.com. Follow and subscribe to trial by content on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast to join us on Thursdays where these two will explain to me which Targaryen is right.

And welcome to every single album. I'm Nora Prince Yaddy. And as always, I am joined by the fabulous Nathan Hubbard. Nathan, welcome back from London. Welcome back from the Caribbean. Thank you. I had a nice weekend. Yes, he did. So did I. No big deal. I mean, I just, I saw hits different and death by a thousand cuts as the mashup. Yeah, okay. So we're going to spend most of this episode talking about Gracie Abrams's new album, The Secret of Us.

However, Nathan was at like the most iconic era's show of all time in London over the weekend. And I've told him that like I'm holding him hostage in this Zoom until he tells me and everyone else listening to this about it. Because on what day was it? It was Saturday. Friday. It was Friday. Okay.

I don't even think it was the most iconic. It was pretty iconic. We don't, the most, we don't even need to, I suppose we can get into the rankings later. But I'm just telling everybody what happened, which is that I texted you when she played the black dog. And I was like, you need to tell me if you were there for the black dog. Tell me that you were there for the black dog. And I get a text message bag that has like 600. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

And then nothing. And I'm like, don't leave me. hanging like this. And eventually you did confess to me upon further follow-up that you were there, you witnessed it. I manifested, first I manifested the bolter for the wrong date. Then I manifested the black dog for the wrong podcaster. It's fine. I'm happy for you, but you do have to tell me about it. It's nice to have a friend, Nora. That's the one that you got. Well, it is nice to have a friend and it's nice to have a friend on this podcast who still won't tell me about the Black Dog lie.

I mean, it's fantastic. I hope she plays it 10 more times. I hope she actually plays it the way that she's playing out of the woods and is it over now as frequently which she played on Sunday. Look, this weekend was a pretty epic one in Taylor Swift's Lord.

It was a pretty epic one. I mean, Friday you had the heir to the throne in, like, the King of England, basically, doing the most ridiculous dance in the box that anyone has ever seen to shake it off. I mean, it has been massively under-meamed as far as I'm concerned. And because I think it got taken over by everything else that happened. Yes, she played the Black Dog.

Yes, it was fantastic. But then the next night, the vibes in the VIP 10- In case anybody lives under Iraq, who Nathan means is Prince William. Yeah. Okay, but you said the King of England, basically, which is not really his whole deal. But anyway, continue. He is the heir to the throne. I don't know how it works.

Who cares? It's all... Anyway. She certainly was very respectful in hard... Not hard launching, but on Instagram, hard launching the Travis picture with the prince and the children. So that was a big night. And then Saturday,

Tom Cruise is bouncing around with Greta Gerwig. I mean, that VIP tent was bonkers. And she played thank you. Amy, which for me, I was actually really impressed with that version. And then just when he thought it couldn't be topped, Sunday, here comes out of the woods, is it over now a clean mashup, which is perfect. Here comes Travis Kelsey in a top hat and tuxedo carrying her like he's King Kong or something onto the bed during the tortured poets thing, which was fantastic.

He made his debut. good. He was great. He had a lot of stage presence. But he has a lot of stage presence. This is Travis Kelsey, isn't it? Maybe this is just because he did have kind of a vibe to him. I have to say what I've said to some of what I've talked about with some friends. And I don't know where this is coming from. My first reaction to seeing him do that was that to me he looks oddly appropriate in a top hat. Like he just looks like he's supposed to be wearing a top hat. Like that comes very naturally to him. him, and I don't think that's true of a lot of people. Like, you know, no offense, Nathan, but if you put on a top hat right now, I'm like... Oh, I can't wear that shit. No way. It's weird.

His head shape can hold that hat. I mean, yeah, so what does that mean? He's like a Broadway guy, maybe. We're over-analyzing his face shape. Here we go. Once again, face shape. Uh, yeah, but like, that was awesome. Paul McCartney at that show was awesome.

Fricken Haley Williams coming out and singing Castles Crumbling was awesome. there just was a lot of very epic energy. And then they went out that night and the Papps were all over them and here we go. Do you think we're going to see Travis at many more shows from here? When has he got a report? See, it's only a couple weeks away, right? It's only a few weeks away. And I mean, he did his thing in Cannes.

He did. I haven't pulled the dates together. Right. But there was a period of time a few weeks ago where I felt like, because, you know, I get the press release blasts kind of on both ends of this thing from the Taylor side and from the NFL side and the Travis side that way, where I just felt like I was getting a different email a day being like, Travis Kelsey playing in celebrity golf tournament. Travis Kelsey will be playing it like, we'll be doing X, Y, Z. And I just was looking at them and going like, I should go through these and figure out how many dates he's actually got open left on the calendar. Right.

So I'm sure they'll spend some more time together. I shouldn't say I'm sure. I imagine they would spend some more time together. But I bet that this was like the big thing. Well, as you know, Death by 1,000 cuts is one of my absolute favorites. So your face absolutely goes numb when one of your favorites gets played in person

and the Black Dog is no different. So it very, very epic weekday. Okay, yeah. And that really was what did it for you. You kind of, you got my Black Dog. and your black dog. I did. And we also got Gracie Abrams

coming up on stage and singing us, which is the song from The Secret of Us, her new album that we're going to talk about today. Okay, let's do it. Let's jump in.

Do you want to give a little background? Give you a little background on how I came to Gracie? Sure. Gracie Abrams went to the same high school as one of my daughters. So I've had this bug in my ear about Gracie Abrams for a while now.

And it took me a little while to start paying attention. I want to ask you, though, why is Gracie famous? Is Gracie famous? And if so, why is Gracie famous? Yeah, so this is a tough question to hit with right out of the gate, but I think it's going to cut to the heart of a lot of what we have to talk about here. And honestly, I don't know the answer to that question. I cannot definitively give you an answer to that question.

I think Gracie Abrams is immensely talented. Check. I think she has some real songwriting chops. Check. I think she has a clearly passionate and studied interest in this sort of bedroomy whisper pop that is maybe starting to face. a little bit, I think some of the espresso's and some of the brats and some of the things that are hitting this summer may be pointed that going out of Vogue, but that has certainly been in Vogue for a long time and certainly is big with a, you know, younger Gen Z crowd. Check. Gracie Abrams is also JJ Abrams's daughter.

Yes, she is. Gracie Abrams is also for whatever set of the previous things that I just mentioned in with. a crowd that includes Taylor Swift, at times Olivia Rodrigo. She's interviewed by Kyah Gerber in a magazine this week. Right.

That has its tentacles in a lot of young up-and-coming arts and entertainment spaces. The answer that I can't give you when you ask me why is Gracie Abrams,

you know, famous to the extent that she is, is that Gracie Abrams has a clear artistic idea of who she is as a pop star or a singer-songwriter or whatever that in and of itself is captivating people. That doesn't mean that I don't like her songs, but I do think that this album is an evolution in a lot of things that she's good at without hitting at the central thing that I do find

missing. Which is what? What distinguishes her from the people that I think she's learned. a lot from, including Taylor, including Phoebe Bridgers, including Lord. And, you know, to put it, look, I think this is because you've asked a very penetrating question. Yeah. I'm giving up a little bit of the ghost of how I feel about this.

Mm-hmm. I think this is a lot harsher than I feel it. Yeah. Because there are a lot of things that I really like here. But a fair but perhaps harsh way to ask, ask the question is, why should I care? Right. Why should I listen to her rather than someone else? And I don't always know that I have a great answer to that,

although I think she's like, I don't know, she's sort of getting closer and closer and circling in on maybe something. And this is my favorite thing that she's ever put out, but I can't still can't totally find that. That's my answer. Do you have a different one? No, I, there is something about her that, teenage girls gravitate to

I know that and it is something in the air something in the ether she has a she just has a a gravitational force that and I think an ability

she is strikingly humble at least in her public facing persona for somebody who is fairly high up on the royalty ranking she's not the king of England but she's a She's a princess in terms of Hollywood royalty.

And that humility, I think, and the way that she speaks about her feelings. And a lot of this album sort of is about confusion, isn't it? Where she hasn't totally made up her mind, and she's oscillating back and forth between sets of feelings and, you know, relationships that are situationships that are developing in real time and the sort of behind the scenes,

confusion about that. There's something about that vulnerability that resonates with a lot of young girls and young women. And I almost wonder if part of the attraction is that somebody who would be perceived, like her nepo baby status is part of the brand because her personality is so sweet and her vulnerability is so rich and authentic. Like there's nothing fake in the way that she puts to get Paris Hilton just put out a single. I'm not even listening to it. Like, there's a Nepo baby who has zero permission for me to be musical.

First of all, there will be absolutely zero stars or blind slander on this podcast. Look, she is a DJ and she is some sort of a creator. I think Paris Hilton is quite a business person. That's not my point. But I think Gracie has instant permission to do this, to be an artist,

because of the personality in the way that she radiates. And I think she does radiate in a lot of ways. And I think that's what seems to be this gravitational pull. I think we'll get into talking about this music and this album. This is going to be a really interesting test

of the Taylor Swift effect. Because Sabrina Carpenter is the number one artist on the Billboard Hot 100 right now. And there are, there are a number of other artists we've discussed that have sort of gone into the gravitational center of Taylor Swift and you know that that spun them so quickly that they've been able to orbit around Saturn I mean Olivia Rodrigo counts you know and Olivia comes out of the

Taylor whipsaw and here comes Chapel Rhone out of the Olivia like there's a there's a sort of cascading effect of these big artists boosting smaller artists this one Taylor's really leaning into. I mean, it is not, as we know, it is not often that she features like this. And it is not often that she pulls an artist up on stage who was not an opening act to play their own song,

at least not of late on this tour. Not an opening act for these shows. Yeah, she's done it. I mean, she obviously had guest stars during the 1989 tour that were super cool and played all kinds of music with them. But she has been selective in the way that she has put her shoulder against the wheel of artists

and tried to push them into orbit. And she is doing the work on Gracie right now. And so it'll be interesting to see because when I listen to this album and we'll talk through it, I hear lots of things that we have heard on Taylor Swift albums. I just think there's no escaping it. And it's because the producers who are not Gracie, and Gracie has talks.

fairly extensively about her adaptation to being a producer on this album and how Aaron gave her a lot of freedom to try synth sounds and to be a part of that creative process. And I think, you know, she's still figuring that out. My just overarching sense and listening to this album is number one, does it have the breakthrough grab you by the throat single that we've heard from some of the other albums that we've talked about this spring. Does it have Red Wine Supernova or Good Luck, Babe? Does it have espresso or please, please, please? Does it have Birds of a Feather?

On and on. Does it have 360? I mean, I would even say the bar is not, like, that's a pretty high bar to set. Well, it is, but... Go ahead. Well, I think that there's been a lot of buzz in the industry that this is an artist who could carry a big-ass festival. And I come out from this album thinking it's really pretty. It's good stuff.

It's not there yet. I love her melodies. I think she, I think, you know, if she's coming up with them, if it's with her and error and if it's whatever, I think they're really,

really, really pretty melodies. Kind of all over. There's a lot to really appreciate. I guess I'm, so we usually start with biggest hit and we can do that. But within that context, what do you think?

the stakes are of this, because I hear those songs that you just mentioned, like this, you know, to say this doesn't have an espresso, the Dueliap album doesn't have an espresso, the Ariana Grande album doesn't have an espresso, right? Like, or even a good luck, babe, stuff like that. I, you know what I meant by that more so than like, is it going to be on the Billboard 100? It is, have we got a song in here that can carry a festival crowd? and I think to your question on Biggest Hit, the closest one is close to you. And the irony of that song,

I mean, look, right now it's risk from just straight up streams, but close to you in terms of the daily streams that are happening right now, if you do the math, close to you is going to overtake risk within a month based on current streams. And I think that's a very interesting point

that they put it out as a single. So yes, it's getting a lot of attention, and that's why it's getting streamed. But Close to You was written a long time ago. Close to you was not really a part of the making of this album, and it is the closest song that you feel like could get a festival crowd jumping up and down.

So can I ask you a clarifying question in terms of just like, do you think that the objective for Team Gracie, not necessarily for her, right? because she's driven by artistic impulse, presumably, and this is a creative process and that has its own aims. But in terms of the sort of like the launching of Gracie Abrams pop star, is the objective of this album to be something that makes her someone who can carry a festival? Is that, like, is that a proper framing of what is what they are trying to accomplish?

Because it's not, I don't think it's fair to say, you know, it might be fair to say that this album and Sabrina's album, have similar aims, but are, it's working out differently. Right. I don't think it's fair to say that this album has the aims of the Ariana Grande album or even the Dulea album. No. No, not in terms of like the musical output or sort of the vibe for sure.

But I do think, hey, she's on Interscope. And the Gracie Abrams two year plan, right? Like what's the, what qualifies as success for the secret of us? Yeah. To me, there's enough buzz and focus here. I mean, you got Taylor Swift on a track five. So let's start there. I think if you are, there's a lot of buzz.

She opened for Taylor. She's 24. It's not like she's a developmental artist who hasn't had it. So I think there was probably around her team. A lot of hope that this album is going to break her out and she will tuck into the slipstream of the Taylor Swift's cinematic universe in the same way that a whole bunch of other

female artists in particular have been able to do over the last couple years. I think that that ambition is probably very strong through her team. For Gracie, though, with her humility, I don't get the sense that she's like, I want to go play arenas. I want to go headline festivals.

I get the sense that in a very natural and authentic way, she's finding her way as an artist and that a lot of this album is about sort of figuring out who she is in her 20s and owning that and continuing to sort of develop

what it means to be the adulting side of life and that's interesting and makes for some very well-written songs but I do wonder if, and we have said this before there are moments on this album where I can just hear Aaron Destner's hard drive.

I can hear the sounds that we've heard before. I can hear... I mean, I will get there. I think it goes even a little further than that, but... I think it does, too. I mean, I think, you know, there's... There are moments on tough love that sound like gorgeous, that sound like there's a cadence of singing on tough love

that sounds like the... I got a boyfriend, he's older than us. Like, there are things that feel very much inherited as a part of some of the music. And that said, I like it. I'm with you. I think it's her best album. It came in a calendar year,

one year after her first album, so she's nothing, if not, sort of prolific. And she sounds like when she talks about her creative process, she sounds like very malleable clay. She sounds like she's got a growth mindset, open to feedback, open to exploring with new writing partners, new, you know, potentially new production. And all in it leaves me in a place where to get out of the Taylor Swift orbit in the way that some other artists have,

she actually probably needs to get out of Taylor Swift's shadow. And that's what I was left with in listening to. this album. And it sounds as I'm saying it out loud, more critical. You can put this album on, you tell me, but I think you can put this album on start to finish and be unperturred by any of it

and it sounds great on what you're listening to. And as always with Aaron Desner production, there's nuance and tapestry and some depth underneath the surface if you listen in headphones or sort of loudly. But as we get to like best song, I don't know.

I think there's a bunch of Canada's. There is not one that just stands out and slaps you in the head as this is the best song. I feel differently. I feel differently. Okay. Tell me. So risk. Risk is my favorite song. Okay. By like a pretty clear margin. It's my son's favorite song too. I think like there are pieces and I think particularly when we get to us, you know, it becomes interesting in terms of sort of where is the, where is the Taylor influence? coming from and how much of this do we sort of owe to Taylor Swift here. But risk to me sounds the most discernibly Gracie Abrams. Like that song, first of all, the first thing that I felt like listening to that. And I don't always tend to be the biggest fan of the kind of like very whispered, like, the bedroomiest of bedroom pop lowercase girl is.

like, Gracie has often made that kind of music, and it's not always my favorite. I feel like that song sounds like, I feel like Risk sounds like she went outside. There's a brightness to it. There is an energy to it. I like how she's singing on it. And I also think that she's finding. And there are a couple of my favorite moments, particularly lyrically, but I like how she's matching it to the melodies and matching it to the music as well, where she has this

very, she's finding a conversational writing tone that I think is sort of refreshing relative to the more intricate insular, like some of the wordier stuff. So when she says, you know, I think God, I'm actually invested, sounds like something someone would actually say. And I think that's something that feels a little bit more honest to her. and there's personality to it. And, you know, and she says, watch this be the wrong thing.

Classic. Like, there's almost a sense of humor in the delivery of classic. It's funny. She is funny. It's good. So I think that song to me is a clear standout.

I just like that it's a little bit brighter. I like free now. Oh. Interesting. Okay, tell me what you like about it. I just, I like the song. Like, I like the, I know the end sort of, you know, pick up at the end of the song. I like, almost like La Mour de Mavi on the Billy record.

Like, I'm a sucker for that kind of songwriting. And I don't know, I just, I dig the melody. I dig the structure of the song. It felt a little bit different. I was into it. Cool. Maybe this is like, this is your,

this is my, the bolter where like, I have to be honest, I really love, the other song that I really, really love is tough love. Yeah. Again, I think he's gone.

I'm 24. It's a Saturday night. Like, I'm seated. I want to hear this story. That's good writing to me. He's gone. I'm 24 and it's a Saturday night. I ran and took his jacket

with the rip in the side. I hate when we fight. I like that she's, writing about her friends. I also think that this sounds like brighter. It sounds less insular. There's a there's an openness to the way that she's singing that I think. And she's talked a little bit about being influenced for this record by having gone on tour and delivering songs in a way that that reflects the experience of singing out into a huge expansive space. And I hear that in the two songs that I like the most. I have to be honest.

Once I get to, I knew it, I know you. It's not that I don't like anything before you get to close to you. I do think it slows down. It does slow down. It does slow down. And it gets a little bit plotting. Yeah, there's some interesting harmony stuff. Bonnie Vair shows up on Good Luck Charlie.

That's his voice singing in the background, which is cool. That's my Easter egg for this album. Because why are Bonnie Vare? Why are Bonnie Vair and Aaron? Destiner working together, are we going to get another big red machine album? But I sort of look at this album as like a you curve. Like, I love felt good about you. Got me where you want me in your palm.

It's almost funny. All my friends, they tried to stop me wanting you. I really like risk. And then I sort of feel like there's a you in the song's tough love. Maybe it's a W. Fine, it's a W. Because tough love, I agree, I think, is pretty good. and I like let it happen.

And then it drifts down, but then I really like the way it ends. I like free now and I like close to you. It's weird that they kept free now and close to you for the 12th and 13th songs. And I understand that she separated out close to you because of the time in which it was written. I also, I mean, I like close to you.

I think close to you is a nice song to listen to. It's Lord. Like, it's just Lord. Yeah. I can't get over it. It's and I don't like if something is really good, I tend to be pretty generous to an amount of derivation. But I think when when it's so hard to put together what someone's sort of artistic principles are.

Like what what's their point of view? Why do they think that they are compelled to be part of this ecosystem to make this music? Like I totally think it's valid like because I want to because I enjoy doing it because it's cathartic because people, like, there are people who want to listen to it. I guess those are good enough reasons. I wish I had one that was a little bit more compelling. And then when you layer on, like, this is just a Lord song. Yeah, but Lord's not playing those songs now. So maybe that's for Lane. I mean, that's what it is for me. It's that. But it, like, it hasn't been long enough. Yeah. I don't know. It's like it didn't bother me with Olivia and misery business. But it

does kind of bother me with with this. Not in the sense, I like the song. I think it's a good song. I just, I kind of wish Lord sang it because I think it's, I think it's too indebted to her to stand on its own. Well, I think if they had shuffled the sequence that I might have experienced the album a little bit differently,

because I'm with you that I think it drags a little bit in that, in that sort of back section. And that's, that's okay. again, this is only her second album. And she's clearly working through what it means to be a human being at 24, but also growing as an artist.

This album shows growth. Oh, my gosh. Yes. And also, the reason that we're, like, the struggle of it is that the reason that we're having this conversation is because there's a Taylor Swift feature on this album, because, as you said, there's a fair amount of buzz

because she's gotten some real opportunities. I think there's a world in which, you know, Gracie Abrams is just an, she's just, she's incubating. She's 24 years old. She seems to be zeroing in on some things that she's really, really good at.

And it's okay if she hasn't quite figured out what the idea is. It just gets, it's, it's difficult because one, when you have a Taylor Swift feature on your album, you are just in a certain type of spotlight that, you know, as my friend's older sister who was with us at the Eres Tour in Scotland said,

which really cracked me up, all feedback is a gift. It is. And she has definitely put herself in a situation to receive a lot of that. And then particularly, like, the next step for her is probably to figure out the right way and the comfortable way to lean away. from some of the things that she currently is leaning into, which is... Like what?

You know, basking in the warm glow of Taylor Swift. Right. I'm not saying, don't be friends. I'm not saying don't love each other. That all seems well and good. I thought that video where they nearly set her apartment on fire was like one of the funniest things I've ever seen. It was awesome.

I cherish having access to that footage. And I am grateful to... Taylor Swift calling a fire extinguisher bitch. Just press it I don't know Yeah Yeah I'm being

Just so nervous It's gonna like So good It's great That album gets an A for me Yes Yes Fire Exinguisher bitch gets an A

But I But I mean Look that video of them Writing the song together Yeah Yeah It gets to you how ironic A curse

Or like A curse or a curse A curse? Oh, curse or a, um, a curse or a miracle, something or an oracle. Just reeks of the video of Taylor and Jack writing getaway car. You know, I'm in a getaway car. And you're in the motel bar. Or like, I'm in the getaway car, left you in the motel bar, took the money.

Where they're sort of finishing each other, you know, and that's sort of how Taylor writes. and it just, there's a lot of it that feels like it just didn't quite get out from the tree, far enough, right? It's under the shade of the Taylor tree, not a new plant. But I think what I'm saying, and like, I kind of draw a blank at most at collaborator, because like, look, I think Aaron did some really interesting work. Obviously, Taylor, I think it's hard to not say that she helps on some level. but I don't see her trying to find her own path, right? It seems like she's leaning, you know,

she's always worked with Aaron Destner, and clearly that's a very good relationship, but it is how do you chart the path out of being a bit character in the Taylor Swift universe from here? Yeah, she talked about writing these songs with woman her age, Audrey Hobert, who she's living with and is a very close friend and who she could just sort of validate.

It feels to me like a lot of her focus in these songs was on the feeling. Am I taking a feeling that people can relate to and that will resonate and then crafting a narrative and a story around it? And in some cases, it's going to be autobiographical and in some cases it's going to be, I'm creating characters.

And that being able to sort of bounce these ideas off of Audrey was really helpful. And that I think, here I sit, I think there are parts of this that I don't totally get that will deeply resonate with 24, you know, to call it 20 to 30-year-old women who have felt these feelings that Gracie does a very eloquent job of articulating.

So that, I have no, as we talk about the shade of the tree, I have no shade for the way that she writes. and there's a ton of promise in that. I just, in the aggregate, when you dial out to 30,000 feet, these could be songs 25, 26, 27 on tortured poets if you're not careful. And again, we're talking about this album.

Like, we've been covering heaters. Think of the albums that we've talked about, right? Like, Brat just had this really cool moment. I mean, Billy Eilish is this, like, you know, Grammy's darling and how. this super cool record and Taylor's obviously huge and we keep you know she is in this conversation and I think to the extent that I'm feeling fairly critical about an album that I that I enjoy very much. Yep. It's because it feels wrong to not examine her as part of that field. Right. And I'm not

I don't think this album holds up to that kind of scrutiny. That's right. But there's a different... And that's why you asked me, was that the goal? Was that the objective? Or was, are they happy with this being the second record as she continues to find her way as an artist? Right. And I think if it's that, I think it's awesome.

Well... I just, I do think that some of the choices make it hard for it to be that. That's right. She's not going to lose a single fan with this album. Let's put it that way. it will be, and it is being well received by the fan base, she's not going to turn anybody off with it. It just may not hold the broad breakthrough attention

that a few of these other albums that we've talked about will get. And that is okay in this moment in time, but it does change the arc of the kind of artist that she is today. Right? If I'm Lollapalooza next year, I want Gracie Abrams on the festival. I want Gracie Abrams, you know, at Coachella. She's not going to be the biggest name up there, I don't think yet, because I just am not sure there's anything on here that finds its own lane,

even if it's from the tree, that finds its own lane that is uniquely different. And that's going to be, you know, that's okay. But that's the tension here with the buzz around an artist with a lot of name recognition through no fault of her own that she was born. into, but then also who is being pushed pretty hard by one Taylor Allison Swift. I do think risk, like for me, comes the closest to accomplishing that and being a lane that is hers. So that's why it's my favorite. Well, felt good about you is a good song, too.

I'm going to give it some more time now that it's got. gotten your blessing in this way. We've sort of buzzed through collaborator. My cuts, I think I've sort of, look, there's a world in which I don't really need gave you, I gave you. I guess now that you ride it up, I want to keep the good luck, Charlie, just for Bonnie Bear. Yeah, I mean, gave you, I gave you, I love that you're not over her.

Now are you part? I actually kind of enjoyed that. It was, I knew it, I know you that I didn't feel like I needed. But don't you know the deal now, but I just can't pretend that I'm sorry. I like how she's singing on that song more than I do on, on Gave You I, gave you I. Okay.

I find it to have a little bit more energy. You know, it has the sort of tempo pickup toward the end thing when she gets into it with the bridge. The thing with Gavey, I gave you, and maybe this is like, I am, you know, I am, as I mentioned on every single episode of this podcast, I'm about to turn 30. And there's just a part of me that like, again, the songs that I gravitate to, tough love, risk, there's a little bit more of a lightness. There's a little bit more of a playfulness with like, I'm, I'm young. I'm figuring it out. the part where she, you know, when she goes to

Gave you all my best days, I just go, girl, you're 24 years old. Gave you my best days. Gave you the deep pain. Gave you I gave you eye. It's going to be fine. Like, I... Well, listen. I get that it feels that way sometimes.

I get that it feels that way sometimes. I just, I don't know. Maybe I'm just too old. I'm too old for this. Let's give her permission. My Saturn has returned. Yeah, fair enough. She's only 24.

There's no Saturn coming back yet. So that's probably my cut. The cuts hang in that in that back half. For me, it's the back, you know, the third quarter of the album, roughly. As we said, drags a little bit. And good luck Charlie. Good luck, Charles. Feels slow.

It didn't grab me. and then I got curious about whose voice is that at the end? And then when it was Boni Vera, I was like, holy crap, he's playing a bunch of stuff on here is Justin Vernon. And so it made me go back

and take a second pass at it. But I still came away more interested in whether this was a Easter egg that there's another Big Red Machine album that's being created. Well, and if this were an EP and it didn't have,

I knew it, I know you, gave you, I gave you I. Good luck, Charlie. Or I know you like it, but free now. And it just goes tough love to close to you and then it's done. Again, I know that, you know, a lot of people feel like she's at a stage where there should be more than that. I listen to that and I go, hmm, pretty curious to hear her next record. Like if she, you know, when's the next full length coming out? I want to hear it. And I probably have a different, different reaction. Again, it's just about the scope and how you evaluate it. Well, we got through collaborating, but we didn't really talk about Aaron Dessner, who has fingerprints all over this album, even though Gracie is credited as being a co-producer, and I think has talked, again, fairly extensively about her role in that way. Is this a different album and a different experience with a very different producer other than Aaron? I mean, did you, do you hear a lot of the folklore ever more stuff seeping in here? Yes. I think, I don't think everywhere. second part of midnight, second part of torture poets.

Yeah. Yeah, I don't think everywhere, but if, you know, I'll share my Easter egg, my conspiracy corner, I guess. I mean, I like the song Us. And I actually think that she and Taylor sound really lovely together, which does not, you know, Taylor's voice doesn't meld with everybody's. It doesn't always work. Like, for all of my snarkiness about Ed Shearin, that's one thing that I really appreciate

about the times when he has worked with Taylor is. I think they sound beautiful together. And I think she and Gracie sound very good together. Yeah. I kind of feel like the fact that Us is on this record, it feels like an indictment of the record because everything about that song is saying this is a tortured poet's anthology track

that Taylor decided she didn't want. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it has some real thank you, Amy, in it. It just feels like it feels like, It feels like a Taylor song. That's the problem. It's borrows some melody from guilty as sin.

What if the way you hold me is actually what's holy? It's a... I mean, sorry, but like the day that the word of the day calendar on Taylor Swift's nightstand said Babylon, like, we can't all be doing Babylon. It's too niche. Yeah. Yeah, it just, it underscores that she needs her own lane, doesn't it? Well, and it's, and again, like, the things that, that click for me are this, this tossed off conversational tone that feels very real. It feels very charming. It feels very, like, 24-year-old girl who I'd like to hear, hear the perspective of. I actually think, like, one of the things that's kind of appealing to me is someone, maybe writing in a sort of Swiftian lane.

But her early 20s have been presumably at least a little bit more normal than Taylor's were. So there's something refreshing about like, you know, she's writing about taking the train. Like she took the assaila to Boston probably. Like that's just, there's something fresh about that. When you go from some of those lines, he's gone. It's a Saturday night. It's so plain spoken.

He's gone. I'm 24 and it's a Saturday night. And then we go into and if history's clear, the flames always end up in ashes and what seemed like fate, give it 10 months and you'll be past it. Babylon lovers hang and miss calls on the line.

I gave you mine. We're talking about sonnets and poets. Yep. It's track five. I know. It's track five. I mean, look, when you think about Taylor's other,

features on the big red machine stuff, on the national stuff, those sound like big red machine or national songs. Even gasoline sounds like a Heim song. Yes. This sounds like a Taylor song. And that is the essence of the challenge. My conspiracy corner is frankly, I mean, it's a Gracie Abrams song now, but like it's not even that it sounds like a Taylor song. It is a Taylor song. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that is the challenge that Gracie faces. And she's using all of the same ingredients of the second half of midnight, second half of tortured poets, and folklore and evermore. And so it's not surprising that the dish tastes remarkably familiar.

And it's additionally difficult because there have been some pretty good reviews of this album, actually, but in a lot of places just sort of haven't, or at least haven't yet. Yeah, haven't touched it. Which I think is... Indicative. Indicative. But that also means that if you Google Gracie Abrams, The Secret of Us,

it's perhaps indicative of the sort of overall challenge that every time I say that, I want to save the story of us. Yeah. Next chapter. If you Google it, your first, you know, the first 50% of your reason, results are about the Taylor Swift feature. And Taylor Swift brings Gracie Abrams on stage in London to do new song Us. Like, it's definitely. It's the marketing campaign. And the problem is- I don't

think Taylor Swift is featured on my album is a very good marketing campaign. Well, it brings eyeballs. There's no doubt. It brings-to Taylor Swift. Yeah. It just doesn't separate her as a standalone artist. And I do think that like in long form interviews and even in the short form stuff, like she's a very compelling human being. And she's interesting and she's articulate. In a lot of these songs, I think she sounds like a very compelling human being.

It's very easy to connect with her, I think. Again, I think just her personality is, she just comes across as extremely authentic. And I think that it's easy, she's easy to love, I think, for a lot of people. And we got to figure out how to have the music match. And again, it's okay. Okay, she's still developing.

But this level of attention and pedestal placing from Taylor, and I think Buzz from the label, sets an expectation that she's ready to absolutely break through. And this will be fun to see her play live in a theater, but not an arena and not a stadium. And I don't know that the music is going to attract that kind of breakthrough audience just yet. She still, to me, seems to be a developing artist who is very compelling. Just the delicacy in her voice is gorgeous. And I think that combined with her sort of mindset, which again feels to be very much growth and exploration and development as an artist,

I'm actually excited for the third album. Me too. And I really like how she, I really like a lot of her singing. And I think it does represent a pretty meaningful step forward because she, you know, she'd been dogged a little bit by the, by the breathiness and by sort of the performed intimacy of that type of delivery before. And I think she just sounds more willing to like open her mouth and sing. Yeah. On a lot of these. And that's great.

And that's a real step. Again, to the extent that I have a frustration here, it's just sort of. of about the imbalance between it feels like I don't know if it's trying to put a square peg in a round hole

or just trying to put a smaller round peg a very small round peg into a very large into a much larger round hole and that's where it loses me but there's there's a lot

to like and I also I know that like I actually tried when I was struggling with this album a little bit. I tried texting around to a bunch of my friends. The problem is they're all like, we're, again,

we're all like 30. I know there is a core audience for Gracie. And maybe there are people in your family who are sort of more in it. Like there's a group of really dedicated fans. And if those people are listening to this album, I hope you'll share with us what is working for you and like who you feel like Gracie Abrams is as an artist.

and what this stuff means to you because I would like to be able to answer that question more clearly because I think that she is talented and I enjoy her music. And I'm very open to my perspective not being sort of completest here. This is the first time I've ever heard you talk about yourself as old. That's sort of funny to me.

I don't think, I mean, I'm not that old, but I'm maybe too old for great. Abrams. Well, that's the question. That is exactly the question. Is there something about her 24ness and the way that she's writing about the feelings of being a 24-year-old young woman that... That's all I mean. Connect with someone who is 20 years old in ways that they don't with someone who's 30. That could be really interesting. There certainly is a core crowd that's into her. I think my sense is that they're drawn to her personality, which is, you know, which we've talked about more so than they are to the music being the soundtrack of their life.

There's something about her. She is the star. We talked about that a little bit with Chapel. But Gracie is the hit. Now are there songs that can flow out of that that become the soundtrack of people's lives. See, this is another, does she have a heavy social presence? Like, is she on TikTok a lot? This is another thing where I'm just, I'm not in the zone. Yeah, I mean, she's obviously like the stuff that she posted of the fire. Of Taylor is great. Yeah. So she's got a presence. Yeah. She's, she's there. I mean, she's got three million Instagram followers, so it's not nothing. But she does admit that she's spending a little bit less time online. I just mean in the sense of like, if she is the hit, if it's her personality

that draws people in, where are people accessing that? But maybe people will tell us. I'm curious to hear from people. Well, she's got a lot of famous friends who are pushing this album, too. She's got Addison Ray. She's got Kaya Gerber interviewing her. She's got, you know, a whole lot of famous names who are doing their best to lift her up because she's friends with them and she's been friends with them for a while. And that's a little bit where the, you know, the positive and negative sides of the Nepo baby piece come in, right? I mean, I don't know about you.

The positive and negative sides about, like, is she ready for the scrutiny that comes with the place that all of these people who really like her are lifting her up to? Yeah. Because it's great and it's great that it'll get her a lot of eyeballs. But if it's getting a lot of eyeballs and something that, like, you know, needs another 30 minutes in the oven. It's not the end of the world. but it would be great if, you know, I don't begrudge her having access to all of, all of that help and all of that support from, from her friends, from her family, from whoever wants to, like, lend their spotlight to getting more people to consume her music.

But you want it to be really, really, really, really ready. And it seems like the paces of those things are just sort of happening at different rates. Well, Pete Gracie might be the wrong thing. but I called this the Pete Gracie thing because it represents some of that tension for me, which is she starts the song Normal Thing with the line, it's a normal thing to fall in love with movie stars.

It's a normal thing to fall in love with movie stars. And for me, I could not separate out the fact that she's JJ Abrams' daughter from that line. And it colored the way that I digested the song. But I like lyrically. But I do think it's kind of an interesting. Yeah.

Yeah. And it made me wonder if she's, and it made me wonder if she's writing about, you know, she writing a story about someone she actually knows. Or you can kind of read it through this lens of like falling in love through the screen. And there's a parasyality to that that I think is interesting. I thought that was a cool idea. I don't know if I loved the execution, but I thought that song was a cool idea. I agree.

But therein lies, I think you said it very well, which is, is she ready for that, the way that she's being lifted up, for the air that she's being lifted up into. She certainly, again, personality-wise, I think, is there. And that's the foundation of, I think, the fandom. That's why I said, for Pete Gracie, I used that space to articulate a lot of what we've been talking about, where I, I can't really give you a Pete Gracie because I, other than someone who does seem nice and funny, I don't know who she is. I don't know or why she's doing this. So it's hard to, it's hard to come up with that. Like, I see, I mean, they're obviously doing very different things.

but like, look, Sabrina is a person who is in a similar, similar position. She kind of, you know, got the Taylor seal of approval. She's opening. She's doing all that stuff. If I, like, if I go on Twitter or whatever, I saw a meme of there are these, I don't think you're going to have seen this, but they're like funny sandals that are really, really big platforms that are sort of like see through and pink and they have hearts on them. And there's some viral tweet where someone who's just like quote tweet.

it and it just says, someone tell the small blonde singer. Like, there's a penetration of the collective consciousness of knowing who someone is. I'm not saying, like, to their core, to their soul as a being,

but like knowing what someone does, knowing what their whole deal is as an artist. And I just, I can't, I can't find it with Gracie. So it's hard to give you a Pete Gracie that I can really, really believe in.

Next album Appetizer for me is easier. What is it? So I, and maybe this is, this is wishful. But I do think that, um, I think that the songs that I really like, like risk, like tough love, are the ones where to me what she has said in interviews about changing how she's singing and thinking about songs after touring a little bit where that comes through. And I just, I find it brighter. I find it airier.

I find it overall more appealing. And there's something in those that sounds, you know, there might be moments in a melody here and there and blah, blah, blah, blah. But like in both of those songs, I get something where I feel like, oh, I'm, I'm starting to have a picture of this person come into focus. So I hope that it's a little bit, maybe a little bit more uptempo, a little bit more in line with songs that,

you know, maybe it's, maybe it's an amphitheater, maybe it's an arena, like it doesn't have to be a super huge space, but just stuff that feels a little bit bigger. And I think she's inching towards it in places. Yeah. I mean, I, it's an interesting perspective. I settled on close to you, even though it's the oldest of the songs, because I do think that the next album I'd like to see her push yourself into sort of focusing on some of the more, not exclusively, but to like, turn out some more close to you, turn out some more, more upbeat. Like more synthy. Yeah.

Even just more bobs. Like I think I think some of... I just think to be that artist, I'd love to see her... Interesting. Stretch herself in that way. Is she capable of that?

And... I find risk to be a bop. Yeah. It's a different type of bop. It's a strumming guitar. barbop. But there's something, there's a, there's a catchiness and there's a brightness where to me it enters Bob territory. But I'm glad that we're both on the Gracie Abrams should do more bobs train because I tend to be on a pro-bop train all the time. Well, aren't you proud of me?

I'm coming around. Yes, I'm very, I'm actually thrilled to hear that. Do you have best lyric? I do. It's from Let It Happen. I love knowing that you're probably out somewhere while I'm in my underwear eating through my feelings. It's great. That's a, that is the vibe of this album to me. It's a really good line.

It would have been a great album title, eating through my feelings. Actually, it's funny. This is maybe the category that's going to give me the best sense of really where she could go and where she should go.

you're choosing that. I think for me, it's the he's gone of 24. It's a Saturday night. And then the parts of the chorus of risk, which all, one thing that all of those choices have in common is a point of view.

Is a perspective where she can clearly write in a way that feels like she's talking to a friend. And it's very succinct. And I hope she does lean into that Because I think again That's what makes us feel like It's a song that doesn't belong on this album Because it's just so different in that way

But it's also It's a sort of interesting combination with Desner Just because in terms of how we associate him with Taylor You know he really came around When Taylor entered into her verbose era Yeah And so maybe that's a way to Maybe that's a way to differentiate a little bit

Maybe that's a way to just, like, add a different texture and have a direction that's her own and go with it. Because when you say, when we answer the best lyric question in both of these cases, I kind of go, okay, yeah, no, like, I'm curious to see where this person goes because that's, I'd like to hear more of the stuff along these lines. Well, you've got to grade this thing, Nora. Well, we both do. I have a B. I did, too. And I think, I mean, here we have given our thoughts on this thing. When we grade these, it's always in the context of the artist in the moment.

And I think that if I'm being brutally honest, I expected to fall deeply in love with this album. I really like this album. I think it's really good. It's not great. But I think Gracie as an artist has the ingredients and is that sort of malleable clay, both, it just lives in her DNA, you can tell, that she's going to continue to grow. And so I'm, I would love to see her step outside the shadow of the Taylor tree and work

with people who maybe aren't in that orbit and aren't in that universe and see if she can take what is a very sharp wit and a personality to match and a voice that, you know, can to do cement and see what she can create. I'm with you on all of that except... Uh-oh. I just... I don't want her to be malleable clay. I think that's a little bit of what I'm brushing up against.

You want her to know exactly what kind of artist she is and to go be it. I don't need her to know it right now. I don't think she does know it right now. But I think that's the objective is to figure it out. I think that's... Because I think, you know, this is an ungenerous, again, this is an ungenerous read. And I feel like I'm saying this over and over. I really enjoyed this album.

There were a couple times when I was listening to it and the thought that I had is like, man, in the Berkeley songwriting seminar, this is like the best student project you've ever heard. Right. This is Maggie Rogers with Farrell Williams, this project, if she plays. it, you'd be like, whoa. Well, I guess not that, right? Like, this is, again, this is, like, this is, I'm saying it in the snarky version, which I feel a little bit bad about, because, like, that is an example of someone who

had something that, where they kind of had something formed. It seems a little bit like she's, just like she's learning how to do the thing. And she's going to keep learning that. And I hope that that, you know, I hope she's not. afraid to have a strong opinion and to go in a specific direction and to try stuff on with the exception of, you know, when it is the biggest pop star of the moment, when it is someone like Lord whose style has been so heavily adopted and replicated and has sort have trickled into all of these spaces in music, I think it becomes harder to differentiate

her from the origin story of some of the songs. But in general, I agree with everything that you sat there. And I hope, you know, I'm excited for the next one. I'm sure we'll be itching to talk about it. And I will be playing, I will be playing a fair few of these songs throughout the summer and probably for a long time after. This has been every single album. I'm Nora Prenziotti. as always, he's Nathan Hubbard. Thank you to the fabulous Kai McMullen for producing this episode and we'll talk to you soon.