Every Single Album - ‘The Tortured Poets Department’ Album Announcement

Episode Date: February 6, 2024

Nora and Nathan convene for an emergency pod after Taylor Swift announced her new album, ‘The Tortured Poets Department,’ at the Grammy Awards on Sunday. They talk about how the announcement went over with her fan base versus in the room at the awards show (1:00), speculate on what the album is about based on the track list that was released yesterday (30:43), and discuss whether or not she worked with Jack Antonoff on this album or went in a different direction (52:32). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Oh, and welcome to a surprise edition of every single album. I'm Nora Princiotti. As always, I am joined by Nathan Hubbard, the secretary of the tortured poets department. Where are you in the TPD cabinet? I'm the president of the tortured podcasters department after what happened on Sunday night. I mean, so I'm in Las Vegas. I'm in Las Vegas at the Super Bowl. A chaotic week.

A very chaotic. beginning to the week, especially. And we were texting. Did you watch Travis get yelled at? I did watch. I was there. I saw it in person. I saw Kill a Trave up on his podium getting like hawked weird questions from e-news reporters and trying to say that he was going to propose to Taylor and, you know. Did you say there were some puppets asking him questions? So I was telling, I was trying to explain Super Bowl Media Night, which is where a lot of the current Travis Kelsey headlines are coming from to

Kai and Avan before we hopped on here, which is just to say that it is, this is sort of the framework that I'm using. Attending that event is definitively, without question, the strangest three hours of my year every single year. The way that Super Bowl Media Night works... That's how I think about the Grammys.

I would posit that Super Bowl Media Night is weirder than the Grammys. Because here's what happens. The two teams, each team, spends an hour with the players and coaches being available to reporters. They have little podiums. You can go up and ask questions. But whereas there's a version of that that happens throughout the week at individual facilities

where a smaller subset, I'm not quite sure what it is, but a smaller subset of reporters is credentialed to do that. That tends to be more strictly like traditional football media. And that's sort of the vibes at those... availability are very normal. It's very much akin to what you do throughout the week if you're covering an NFL team and you're talking to guys after practice or whatever. It's very normal. Media night, there's a very heavy international media presence. There's also a very heavy entertainment media presence. And then there are the weirdest people you've ever seen

who like walk around and ask people questions with puppets. The Blue Man group was also there. last night. There are people dressed up as like professional wrestlers or maybe they are professional wrestlers. It sounds like the what's up with that sketch from Saturday Live. It is. It truly is. That is the vibe. And then you suddenly have Travis Kelsey who had, I would say, three times the number of people

clustered around his podium than Patrick Mahomes or Andy Reid or, you know, anybody. And I've covered these things when Tom Brady is one of those people. and the horde around Travis is not something that I've ever seen at one of those events. Who can blame them? We're getting a new album, Nora. Yeah, sorry, I got really off base because, like, Media Night just makes a weird impression on me. But anyway, we were not expecting to have to reconvene this podcast on today, Tuesday, February 6th, as we're doing.

But we have to because there's a new album coming out on April 19th, the Tortured Poets Department. what the heck is going on? Look, I mean, first of all, clown, all of us clown. Truly. Truly. Your little nail polish theory. I mean, I guess something did happen.

Look, something happened, and we even referenced it on the last pod. Maybe there was new music. The thing about this is we have seen her constantly in the, the studio for months and months and months. She's been going into Electric Ladyland in New York. Can I just say it's so dumb I didn't start going to yoga next door? Yeah, it is. I had that opportunity. I knew the studio was there. I could have done it and I've never done it. I regret.

Even that photo on her birthday that Desner shared of her in the studio wearing the same outfit that we saw her in New York, she's been telling us, it's been right in front of our face that she's been in the studio. We just got a little. little bit clowned into thinking that this was for reputation. It was for reputation. Or earlier it was for 1989. Or she's working on debut. Like she has been so prolific. Yes. That it's kind of like I don't even feel bad about clowning on that front.

Because if you told me that she had been in the studio every time I know that she has been in the studio and have seen a photo of it or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that that work led to midnight. It's 1989 Taylor's version, Reputation Taylor's version, and, you know, the vault tracks. Yeah. I would be like, yeah, that makes sense.

That seems like a lot of work. Well, there has been a lot. It's just when you put the entire experience of the Ares tour that was pretty well documented as that movie came out, plus 1989, it just seemed hard to imagine. Plus, by the way, flying back and forth to Kansas City to be in a new relationship, it seemed a little hard to fathom that there was another album that was coming out, in particular because her timing is interesting on this one.

I mean, she's still out there now doing a world tour that costs a lot of money to set up, takes a lot of rehearsal, has a whole lot of production geared around the set list, that is exactly the same every night, save for the addition of long live, the subtraction of, or I guess the addition of the one in place of what did it swap in for? It swapped in for Cardigan.

And then, you know, the acoustic songs in night. Now we're going to be in an entirely new era before she even gets to Europe, much less coming back and playing New Orleans and Miami and Indy and Canada. So there's a whole lot that, from a timing perspective didn't totally make sense.

But of course we missed that she loves to use that platform to launch things. And something about this Grammy acceptance of Best Pop Vocal album

was everything that the world knows about Taylor, wasn't it? The website at UMG goes black and white. Her avatar goes black and white.

She shows up in an outfit. All the friends avatars are black and white. She shows up in an outfit that's black and white. She's jumped. Customs. Customs Gapper. She is jumping on the buzz where we all thought that meant reputation.

And of course, she loved the surprise and used that moment, which it was interesting that she used that moment. I think she wasn't sure. And her reaction later on, I think, was one of the most, I mean, it was a very genuine reaction of surprise, I thought. And we know a lot of less than genuine reactions of surprise from this. woman we've seen before. This felt like a real genuine reaction when she won album of the year. And that's why I think she used the first Grammy that she won as that platform to announce

the album. But look, some people thought, yes, of course she did it. She used the VMA announcement to talk about Midnights. This is what she does. Some people thought, well, that's Taylor being as capitalistic is possible. She's using the moment to sell new stuff. You know, in hindsight, only Taylor Swift could announce her new album before she receives the record-breaking award for her last album. There were some people who were put off by it and said, oh, it's a little bit tacky. You know, years ago, there was an artist who put that album release date on the back of her jacket and she took some shit for it. How did you feel about the process? Can we table this for a second? because I wanted to come back and talk about the Grammys a little bit.

But just to spend some time on what we know about tortured poets department before we get there because I'm... We can do it. I just wanted to hear your initial reaction. Like when she announces tortured poets department, were you feeling any of those things? Or was it just like, holy shit, she's done it again? Like, where did you go?

So I went, holy shit, holy shit, holy shit. And, okay, maybe we can sort of start the Grammy's conversation now. I think an interesting thing that's happening is that she is playing to two completely different audiences. Right. And I don't know that it's possible to satisfy both of them. Speak to those two. What are they?

I had a reaction to the announcement that was primarily within the context of talking to my friends about Taylor Swift, which is like such a part of my life right now. And that's really fun. And everyone I know who's invested in her and is a fan and is excited about the greater Taylor Swift Cinematic Universe, it is so much fun to go back and forth with each other and be like, holy shit, I can't believe she did this. She worked so hard. We knew something was coming.

It wasn't this. We knew something was up. It wasn't going to be this. What is this aesthetic? The tortured poets department. The chairman of the tortured poets department. Like, she's such a millennial right now. Like, all of that.

stuff is really, really, really fun. And it's really fun to live in that ecosystem with the other people who are bought in. And Taylor has essentially, like, created a metaverse. Right? It's this, it's this mostly digital universe where people who really care about her and who also have these, like, all of this network of relationships that are based off this, this mutual interest in this person and their work. And within that metaverse, this was note perfect. Awesome. Inside the room at the Grammys, I think it was tougher because it is literally the plot of anti-hero. Like, the Grammys, in theory, she should be among peers, right?

It's the entire music industry. But she's not. Those aren't her peers anymore. She is literally peerless in terms of accomplishment at the highest level. Everybody paying respects to her in the same. way they did to Beyonce, but even maybe more on that night. I agree with this. Keep going. And even maybe, you know, they're paying respects, but I think there is a degree of like, sometimes I feel like everybody is a sexy baby and I'm a monster at the Grammys. Like,

she sucks the oxygen out of the room. It is not her fault. But like, imagine being Casey Musgraves. Yeah. You know? They just ran an ad for your new album. them. And no one is going to talk about it. And I'm not good. I mean, I'm talking about it here, I guess. And like I love Casey Musgraves. I will, of course, anything Casey Musgraves wants to give me, I will enthusiastically consume. I don't know what Taylor should do in that circumstance. Because I think the way that it seemed like she tried to approach it was a little bit of like, I'm not going to make too big of a deal out of this. Because I don't want to act like with all that I have that I'm just like basking. in the glow of the Grammys and saying, oh my God, me, like little old me, you've given me this

prize and I care about it so much. I think maybe that had the effect of coming off as not really caring that much or being a little bit sort of like, I'm just going to use this as a platform for my stuff and my stuff is bigger than this and it becomes not about the other people there. I just think that is a catch-22 for her and I don't know what she should do about it. I sort of get, I mean, I'm sure she, like, the Celine thing was a total flub. I think there is absolutely no chance on planet Earth that it was like intentional or negative. I'm sure Taylor Swift fucking loves Celine Dion. Yes.

But, like, she didn't do great in that moment. I don't think she was expecting to be on the stage. It was not her best moment. You're right. It wasn't. But let's come back on the Grammys. I mean, you're right. Because, let's come back on the Grammys.

She's playing to two crowds. And it's very hard to satisfy both of them. It is. But for this crowd and this album, this was a, for me, backflips, holy crap. We're getting a new Taylor album before we get reputation, apparently. I mean, who knows at this point. But immediately putting the cover up and then the next day,

putting out the track list, the thing that struck me the most after I got over the holy shit, we got totally clowned. I love it. I love that she used all the buzz and was like, no, no, you're right, we're doing something, but it's not at all what you thought.

The necklace being set to midnight. Yeah, all of it. Point perfect, as you said. But, like, I'm used to, fearless, red, 1989, reputation, lover, evermore, folk, one word album covers.

Wait, can I say that there is some speak galarachar going on in this discussion? Yes, I did it. I did it. I understand that speak now is fewer words than the tortured poets department. It's only two words. But every single song title is like a flower. Like, what is this? She's hanging out with Lana Del Rey.

Is that what this is? I think it's a lot of things. I mean, look, I think the allusion to the tortured man club group chat between one Joseph Alwyn, one Paul Mezcal and one Andrew Scott is probably, a little too on the nose to not... It is. Not have something going on there. Just a piece of advice

to anyone who's listening. Don't have a group chat called the tortured man club. No. That's weird. Yeah. Yeah, that's weird. Unless you've actually been tortured, this is not a great name.

It's not a great name. Fair point. And I think a part of what we are going to need to talk about is this, as you read through every title of this, of the song. on this album, you get to track five so long, London. I mean, this feels like a Joe all-win attack, and I don't love what the fan base is doing. And it already feels like there's going to need to be a moment where she stepped forward and walks people back because the knives are

out and everybody's excited about, holy crap. So when you say you don't love what the fan base is doing, can you tell me what you mean by that? Because what I've seen is, I've seen a lot of, you know, might want to lay low for a bit, Joe, might want to run and hide. The timing with the start date of the Revolutionary War, also being April 19th, is just so funny to me. I will never get over it. Do you think that there is,

is there a more sort of sinister piece going on alongside that? I think as usual, there is part of the fan base that actually gears up and goes to battles that she doesn't necessarily want to fight. And in this moment of pumping up Travis Kelsey in the same way that Maddie Healy was just systemically torn down,

there has been this chomping at the bit. I disagree that it is the same way in which Maddie Healy was systematically torn down. I think that was a little bit more self-inflicted. But there's a part of the fan base that is chomping at the bit to tear down. There is. And it's why she went on stage before Speak Now,

speaking of which, Taylor's version. and called off the dogs on John Mayer. And because she'd seen what happened to Jake Gyllenhaal, and again, she contributes to it. You're losing me. And the sort of what felt like tree manipulation of bits of the press around the Joe stuff, there was that moment towards the end of last year

where it felt like maybe there was a proxy battle happening in the press over this relationship. And now contextualized, that they knew this album was coming. And they knew that every single title and that we know enough about the group chat to know it's gonna spark a whole lot of speculation. So all I'm saying is I think people are jumping up

and saying, yes, there's gonna be a lot of tearing into Joe. My sense is this album's gonna do enough of that. And I hope it doesn't become a dragging. Because I think there's a lot of people hungry for a dragging here. And that's done. Don't be one of those fans. I think one of the, you know, there's sort of a funny, like,

sense of pearl clutching about Taylor Swift doing what Taylor Swift has literally always done since the beginning of her career and has even done within the context of this relationship, right? Like, does it get rougher than I wouldn't marry me either? Like, that is a pretty public airing of one of the downfalls of a long-term relationship that has already happened. We, you know, it has happened to... Does it get rougher? Can I interest you in the smallest man who ever lived? Okay. Okay.

I have a theory. Can I interest you in my boy only breaks his favorite toys? Yeah. I mean... Fresh out the slammer? I will say about the smallest man who ever lived. Joe Alwyn. And perhaps I'm being a little too literal.

Joe Alwyn. And credit to one of my dear friends who pointed this out first. but Joe Owen is like a healthy six foot three. Right. Maddie Healy on the other hand. Yeah. Well, there you go. I'm just throwing it out there.

There you go. Maybe there's more and there's going to be more context to it. Can I read you something? I wrote a little tiny thread when I thought... A tortured poem? When I thought there was a chance that she was going to lose album of the year. Okay. And it's what we talked about on the last,

pod, which is that I just didn't feel like album of the year was ever going to be an objective assessment of her art, that this was a referendum from the voters on whether to push her into this historically uncharted territory. And one of the things... I think that's still true. I do too. But I think... I do. Absolutely. But what I said was, Midnights is excellent. It's also not a generationally impacting album in the way that Fearless 1989 and folklore are, and that it would have been if it had lost. And I think it is, even though it won the weakest of the winners of the fourth that that she won. But what I said was like...

I like Midnights better than folklore. You do? Yeah. You do? That is coming from the same part of me that likes the dual-lepa song better than the... Yeah, and we're coming back to that on the Grammys, sure is Sunday, because you will be held accountable for that completely insane take. I'm so stand by it.

I also have another take that's going to really upset you. I don't even know what to say to you. But what I said, you know, if I had a concern about what she announced, right, it's that it's likely another Jack and Aaron produced album. And when you and I first did Midnights, we said that's exactly what Midnights is, by the way. Great, but it's vaguely familiar to what has come before. And, you know, what you and I said when we first did the Midnights Pod was we loved it, but we really hope that she would push herself

with new producers next time. Well, then the funny thing is that even on top of that, what I said was sort of that, but with this layer of true pop Taylor is in my heart of hearts where I want to be. And so Midnights was really fun for me because it was a return to that.

Aesthetically, you know, it was not lost on me that the braid the braid was on stage at the Grammys. And we're black and white, we're, you know, we're wearing the row boy shorts in our album cover. That's a choice that I'm really interested in.

Okay. But the aesthetics are a little bit more similar to folklore and Evermore. Not completely. It still actually like feels... It looks like a Madonna cover to me. You could make the argument that it's a melding of some of the...

the midnight's aesthetics and some of the folklore evermore aesthetics because it is a little bit more of that like 70s, a little bit like cool retro styling choices. And it's like it's indoors. It's not in the woods. But then at the same time there is this like old timey black and white vibe, which is very folklore and overmore. So all of this is to say that that is certainly the wheelhouse that she still seems to be operating in, which you're right to point out, is one that you and I have both expressed. We're curious to see when she decides to move beyond that. Yeah. She's been telling us that, well, she told us on stage that she had been keeping the secret for two years, which tells us a number of things. Let me just say on the Jack and Aaron thing. Lewis Bell shared this,

shared Post Malone's post about the Tortured Poets Department, and he had worked on Afterglow, he'd worked on Malone's circles, Miley Cyrus's Angel like you. So that suggests that maybe there's somebody different. Ryan Tedder also made a commentary. So it may not just be a Jack and Aaron album. Maybe we will get our wish. The thing that I sit with most right now, and this is a reason for optimism,

is this album, even if it carries over more of the past than we'd hope for and is less of a break than we ask for post-midnights, if the timing is correct, it's not going to capture the Travis era, which means there's this entire blue ocean of new material for her to explore and turn into art,

which means there's just a whole creative... Now, unless her happiness and satisfaction is what actually kills the creative drive in this woman, it is fascinating to see this last little bit before what feels like one of the most impactful eras of her life. It's going to be weird to sort of live in the past with this album

and know that there's a whole part of her that exists now that did not exist when she was writing these songs. Yeah. No, it will be interesting. The timeline. Because as you said, she said that she's been keeping the secret for two years. Which... What does that mean? Does that put us back to roughly...

the beginning of of 2022, which means that this album would have, at least as a concept and something that she was working on or at least thinking about predated Midnights

and because Midnights was released in October of 2020. Right. And came out roughly as an idea around the same time as, according to Jack Antonoff

on Instagram, they recorded, you're losing me. Because his Instagram post said that that happened on December 5th, 2021. So right at the end of 2021, right after Taylor ate these raisins.

Right. So are we getting a raisin-fueled album? I suppose that's what we should be led to believe. Extraordinarily. The Tortured Poets Department fueled by raisins. Yeah. GI system is tortured. my take is that they've got a slight,

I think they've got a slight handicap with time and timelines. I really do. Some of this doesn't all completely add up. How so? Midnights has an entirely, it's basically a double album. Like, how much did they do at the time? It sounds like a lot? I think I'm sure it started maybe two years ago,

but when we read this and understanding the timeline of their relationship, and some of these things are undeniably tied to the downfall of her relationship with Joe Alwyn, I think. I suspect that when this really... She's been in the studio recording this over the last nine-ish months, as opposed to this being in the bag for two years. Don't you think? I think we're going to find that. Because we got as much material as we could have possibly hoped for around midnight.

I guess I'm just... It's not that I don't think that that's possible or even likely, but it does give me more questions. Because that does mean that she was essentially working on... Working on midnights, which also seemed like it was born potentially out of the process of doing 1989 and recording those vaults. songs.

Mm-hmm. And then at minimum thinking about this, while also having already recorded the song You're Losing Me, which was released sort of separately, but feels of a piece with the tortured poets department. Yeah. That all of that was sort of happening, if not concurrently, then everything that did happen happened when the idea

for the other thing already existed and therefore choices were made about where do we funnel what songs are going where? She's going to need to as a part of this for all of us to understand the art. I think she's going to have to provide a little more context

because it is confusing. There will be rampant speculation even if there's not a full army going out to attack Joe Alwin. There'll be random speculation around when this is. happen. It helps us understand Midnights better because there's the, oh, Midnights was a breakup album, and I still stand by the fact that I think Midnights was a threat, but Juiled was a threat,

not a, that the album wasn't a breakup album, but there were kernels of dissatisfaction that percolate through that album all over the place. This seems to be the next phase. It's just when it happened. And only she can clarify that for us. And I think, I suspect this is not a, a sister album to Midnights in the way that folklore and Evermore were very close sisters. It will not be lost on her that Evermore got lost in the shuffle of everything

and didn't come with a whole lot of explanation other than surprise, here's another one, Merry Christmas, it's a few days after my birthday or whatever, or before my birthday. So I bet we get a little bit more context on this one. Well, I mean, for instance, you know, there's a track called Florida. With three exclamation points.

With three exclamation points. Hold that thought. There's a track called Florida, and she was, if memory, Florida, Kelly Clarkson, if memory serves she was in Tampa, those first shows after it, after the breakup went public. So I don't know anything. Is that a reference to that? Is that something completely different? There will probably be some degree of greater understanding that we can have about the timeline based on

what the songs are about. But she's going to be out of the country largely for this cycle. So it's going to be a little bit harder for her to, at least on our side, you know, explain it in a way. Well, we'll see. Again, what she's proven is she's a media company. It doesn't matter where she is in the world. Yeah, the internet is global. Which is why it's so funny that she used the Grammy's telecast to do this because she could have done this outside the Grammy's telecast.

But the song titles are bonkers. Yes. Can I? The punctuation situation. You brought up the fact that this is a word. song title by her history. And I said she's been hanging out with Lana Del Rey.

There's punctuation all over this thing. I mean, we've talked about Taylor Swift's use of punctuation in song titles before. And this is certainly a rich text. There's one lowercase track. We've got some ellipses. We've got exclamation points. What are you getting

put on your English major hat? What are you getting from the linguistic presentation? of this new era, right? because it's probably, we're in the tortured poets department era now. But we have like an acronym. We've got love of my life and lowercase letter.

I mean, there's a lot. Yeah, there's down bad, which is the phrase that everyone has been using to talk about her and Travis. There's, yeah, I mean, this. Fresh out the slammer. That's, I'm interested in hearing.

Yeah, all of it. Look, this feels different because of really the album title and the way that she's decided to phrase the songs. And so I wonder if musically, it will also be different. Or if this is just a different prism through which to see the same kind of material.

But it gives me some hope that she's trying something different here. there's a little bit of a thing that I think happens as as you get older. And I think maybe I'm thinking about this because I think I'm like just starting to be on the precipice of this where at a certain point you kind of leave culture behind in in the way that like when you're young, you pay a lot of attention to trends and you kind of like mold with the world in this very reactive and very like quick way. And then at a certain point, you have a better understanding of who you are and what you

like. And you just you stop a little bit. that's not to say you don't like incorporate things you like in a ongoing basis, but like you sort of know what clothes you like to wear. You sort of know how you like to get your haircut. Like you just kind of are like, okay, I was molded as a person during these years and this era and I've got it now and like I'm just going to do this thing. I think like maybe a little bit of that has happened to Taylor where she just like,

2014 was really important to her. And she did a lot of growing up. And there's just like, every time I see her, I'm like, there is a part of you. And I mean this with so much love because I owned this shoe. But there's like a, there's a lace up mule, like a healed mule with a lace up front. That was just like really ubiquitous in 2014.

And every time I see Taylor Swift, I'm like, you're that shoe. Like, that shoe is just inside your brain. And that's where we are. And I get it. I really get it. It's just, I know this is making no sense to you, but it'll make sense to some people. It's fine.

It's fine. And it's just very fascinating to see that play out. Yeah. Through the most famous woman in the world. Yeah. To close the loop, which is to say that, like, there is a 2014, to 16 era like Tumblr

adjacent vibe that is coming through very strongly. Yeah. Okay. In Torture Poets for me. Look, she also has a bunch of songs that

I mean, that I get worked up over the title, but like you need to calm down. There are lots of there are lots of song titles from other albums that you could potentially... I forgot that you existed. It's nice to have a friend.

Which, by the way, Louis Bell also worked on those two songs. Yeah, fine. Is it Lewis or Louis? I don't know. But I don't know, Mr. Bell. We'll probably find out. Yeah, we're going to find out.

Somebody's going to tell us. Here's what I want from this album. I feel like the last bits of, quote-unquote new music that we've gotten from Taylor Swift on Midnights, which I think is a wonderful album. and the vault tracks from

1989 have very clear roots in stuff she's done before. Folklore and Evermore felt like a completely new direction. 1989 felt like a completely new direction. There are parts of reputation to me that felt like a completely new direction.

100%. I hope that we get something that feels really different and new, even if fresh out the slammer doesn't blow me away as like the next getaway car that I have to listen to. I'm actually more hopeful that this album is a leap

and where she's taken some risks and trying something different than a close cousin to Midnights. And that to me is why the timeline musically matters to me more than I'm interested in the lyrics and the narratives that are here and the reflection of her.

own life. That's always going to be part of her as the main character in her own cinematic universe. But musically, I'm hopeful that this album, which feels like it was done while she's really been in her own stuff, doing an eras tour where she's playing her old music again, doing the 1989 re-release where she's playing her old music again, doing Midnights, which has roots in things she had done previously. I hope that maybe this was an allergic reaction to some of that. in the best possible way and has some threads that are completely new.

Hand to heart, I wouldn't bet on it. Yeah. I just really get the sense that she loves Jack and they're really good friends and they have fun working together and, you know, we've seen her going in and out of the studio.

And it doesn't feel like a shift. now that's speaking with very limited information, right? Because who knows what happens? Once she walks inside and they close the door, maybe there's a very conscious, look, this has been a thing with her, right?

Like, this is a feeling that exists in not all, but some parts of the fan base. And I think is, is, comes from a thoughtful place and comes. comes from people who are invested in her success and interested in her success. And as we know, she listens,

she reads, she sees things. Yes, she does. She is not unaware of the potential that she's at the end of the forest, as you like to say, with Jack. And maybe this is her going,

you know, I hear you, but that's not fair to Jack. We can do something. different together and keep this incredibly intimate relationship as co-workers, particularly if I'm going to address some of the most challenging relationship dynamics that she's probably ever lived through. You know, I wouldn't, it's interesting to see that there are some not new people, but people she's

worked with in the past, potentially taking on a more prominent role in this album, at least it seems like based on who's sharing the photos and everything. I just, I think if Taylor Swift is going to write an album that is basically about her, her breakup with Joe Alwyn, I think she's doing that with Jack Antonoff. I just, I don't really think that there's like much of a chance that there was, you know, and maybe to some degree Aaron Dessner has become sort of one of those people too. But the working relationship with Jack has always seemed like he is part of the, Part producer, but also part like therapist and part just like, let's sit down and talk.

Punching bag based on the Grammys. She beat the shit out of them when they put him on screen. Yeah. And then there was like a, there was a video of her and Boy Genius. Kid brother. Taking photos afterwards. And Jack wasn't in the photo. And she's like, that's so weird. You're being so weird. Yeah. What do you think of the album? Like, this is the first time we've had just like a random statement. I love you. It's ruining my life. Yeah, so we think on the back cover. On the back cover. You know, I had, this is coming from almost nowhere.

I did kind of wonder if, I wonder if there's some of this that's a little bit of a red herring. This clearly, this album is going to deal with some stuff that's about Joe. And I definitely read the, the All's Fair in Love and Poetry tagline. as a little bit of like a, oh, like, it feels like a statement of I'm allowed to go there, which I'm interested to see how true that ends up being. The I love you, you're ruining my life. I sort of wondered if that was like a...

I love you. It's ruining my life. But it's ruining my life. I wondered if that, I wonder if that's not. about Joe, I guess. Like, I don't know. I wonder if it's like about this moment of her.

Because for as much as that relationship was, you know, it's a six year long relationship, she's at that point in life where it's like, you kind of have to, again, like, you're deciding who you're going to be in a big way. And going through something like that at that point, it's got to be really, really, really kind of mind bending in a way that for her, I would imagine leads to a lot of work.

and a lot of channeling those feelings into what she's always done with that, which is make music. Well, she looks exasperated in the photo on the back, to be clear. But she, right, and she also on some level, I don't believe that she could have made an album over the last two years without on some level commenting through it, even implicitly or subconsciously, on just where she is as a person and as a star and as a celebrity.

And so when I saw that my first thought, and this is like total conjecture, but I just was like, I wonder if that's like, again, not like to the fans, but just to the world right now where it's like, I love you.

I love everything that I have and have achieved and to get to do this. And also like, this is so fucking abnormal. Yeah, maybe she's gone that meta. Fine. But when I go through this, track list. There's about two songs on this that aren't super clearly about her personal relationship.

Fortnite featuring Post Malone. Maybe, although it's kind of an English term that's used. What if it's about the video game? She dispelled it differently. My understanding of Post Malone, who I love, is that he mostly hangs out in Utah underground and plays games. Fine. Tortured poets to apartment. That's her. My boy only breaks his favorite toys. That's him. Down bad. So long London. So long London, boy. There's a reason we haven't heard that as a as a secret song. But Daddy, I love him. Her father's at every show. Fresh out the slammer, I don't know. But we know about the, he could be my jail. He's fresh out of a slamer going to be like a little bit of a nobody, no crime situation, maybe? Maybe. I thought he could be my jailer from reputation. Oh, interesting.

Yeah. Locked up. Yep, exactly. Florida, who knows? I mean, Florence and the machine, I don't know, but like you said, that's one that could be. Guilty as sin. Who's afraid a little old me? Maybe that's her. I can fix him. No, really I can. Love of my life. I can do it with a broken heart. The smallest man who ever lived. I mean, we're now taking huge shots. The Clara Bosong is interesting. Yeah. I mean, this is a starlet who was overwhelmed

by the speculation around her personal life. So perhaps there are threads of where she is in this moment woven in there. I was just, it would be very much like her to have this whole thing seem like this is the story of the Joe always. and breakup, and that's what this album is. But it's actually a reflection of my life.

And then have it actually be a little bit something else. Or to be both things, right? Like, reputation was presented as the story of her public downfall and feud with Kim and Kanye. And then half of that album was about falling in love. Yeah. Well, and there's already some press chatter, maybe an unattributed Alwyn quotes about all this. So there's some concern about what this is. Can I just ask a practical question at this point?

Because the one takeaway... I nodded and then I remember that we're in an audio media. The one takeaway from the Travis interview was the right question to ask him was, have you heard the album? And his answer, I'm never going to be able to live with. Which was, I've heard parts of it. like you gotta hear the whole album, don't you?

Like, who would ever be like, oh, okay, you're only gonna play me three songs? You're not gonna be like, I wanna hear the whole thing right now. Like, that's the one undeniable benefit of dating Taylor Swift is you get to hear the whole album. And if she's gonna play you some of it, why is she not playing you all of it? Is it because the smallest man who ever lived is about giant Travis Kelsey? I mean, you can, I. So you think there's a chance that there is a Travis song of this other. I think that's...

No, I think that's a no. I don't think there is, but I can't believe he wasn't like, no, no, I want to hear the new album. It's available. What do you mean? She's only heard parts of it. Can you imagine having the access and not wanting to hear it all? I think that based on what Travis said, you and I and anybody have zero idea if he has heard any of this album. I think he might have been surprised.

or all of this. Do you think she maybe didn't tell him? I think there's some chance that he did. I mean, clearly people were put in some sort of loop, right? Because everybody changed their profile picture to black and white. So the crew has been involved. There is some sort of group chat, but that doesn't, that doesn't equate to hearing the songs, right? Like, I'm sure at a certain point, if you're Kelly Teller and Taylor Swift says,

will you change your Instagram profile picture to black and white? She says, yep, sure, no problem. And doesn't necessarily ask a lot of follow-ups. Is that the case with Travis? Maybe. I mean, he didn't change his profile. I love the idea of him getting off the plane when they land in Vegas, pulling up his like DirecTV stream app,

plugging in the Grammys and being like, whoa, new album. Like texting him. I mean, he did say, he did say that they hadn't talked since the Grammy. Yeah. And he's like, no, she had to have. on a plane. I'm like, what? What do you mean?

She was at a post party. She changed dresses. You didn't give her a call and be like, congrats on setting the all-time record for most Grammys for album of the year ever in the history of the industry. Does this mean that Travis doesn't send a good night text? Well, he did say Todd. I'm sure they text. Yeah, I guess that's true. That's true. That's true. But like, anyway, I just, it blew my mind and I've been just in knots ever since wondering if like she was like, well, I can't play it all for him

because this big, dumb Yeti will tell everybody. Or if she was like, I really don't want him to hear the smallest man who ever lived because maybe, you know, he's not firing on all, you know, cylinders, but he might, he might put two and two together here on this one. Who knows?

I'm not. It just was a crazy response. Let's move on. I think here's my basic statement here. I think the driver, at the wheel when Travis Kelsey answered that question was, I need to not say something that Taylor wouldn't want me to say. Yes, and he said that thereafter. He's like, I'm not telling you anything. He's zipped up his lips

through the key. So Tree Payne has explained the situation. He understands the assignment, which is part of why he's an awesome, awesome partner for Taylor Swift. Tree has taken a break from text blasting photos of Taylor and Celine Dion to anyone with Twitter account in the entertainment media space. That we mop up that little. Yeah, that we mop up that little thing. Look, she is going to be backstate side

in between the Asian leg of the tour and the Europe tour. So she will be here in April. I am hopeful that she will do a little bit more than she did on Midnights to provide some context. Because what we are doing now as a fan base, all of the different factions of it, we are speculating wildly.

And what that leads to in some parts the fan base is a witch hunt for Joe Alwin. What that leads to here is us suggesting that it could be as crazy as she didn't even play a song for Travis because there's one about. Who knows? We're going to need a little more context on this one. It's important

we're all bought into the story in the cinematic universe, but because of some of the signals that we got in these little bits from Jack's Instagram post to her saying this has been a two-year secret, contextualizing these songs and really understanding them will be much easier to do if she gives us a little more. And I suspect

this go around that she may actually do that. I'm just blown away by what I think you are saying you think that song is about. I think it's about Joe. To be clear. But who knows? Listen, but we are, the thing that I just have to do, I have to hold you accountable for something, Nora, speaking of the Grammys. And we're doing this right now.

Okay. How on earth did you hitch your wagon to the Duolipa Barbie song over the Billy Barbie song? I did not hitch my wagon to it winning. I hitched my wagon to it being more deserving because it's a better song. You did. And Billy Ilish won. I said I would like to have it win. Her ninth Grammy by winning not just best song in a movie, which she also won over the Doolipa song.

I love Duo. This is not about Do-W. But she also won Song of the Year over Anti-Hero and a bunch of other things. You must have been shocked, embarrassed. It's surprising you even agreed to do this podcast. That song is boring. I'm sorry. I don't care for the song. Oh, I think it's beautiful. I love Billy Eilish. I loved her outfit. I loved seeing her there. I love when she achieves.

she's a wonderful presence in the in the pop music space. I've got love for Phineas. I mean, I'm, I'm in on the whole thing. That song is a bore. No, I love it. The Duel Lepa song is great. All right. And you just like to dance.

That's all it is. You're just such a sucker for bobs. Okay. You know, there are a lot of suckers for bobs out here. And we deserve some inclusion, too. I'll just share something that I am absolutely going to get dragged for, but I don't care because it's true. Oh, no. Oh, no.

I love Miley Cyrus. She deserves to have many Grammys. Flowers is like some of the most uninteresting music. Miley Cyrus is ever made. Here we go. It's a fucking cover song. I told you it was going to win record of the year. It's a great, like, and I'm glad that it did.

I told you. Because Miley fucking rules. And like, she's just everything. think she's the way that she is at an awards show is always appointment television just whatever she's going to do whatever she's going to say she's just like chaotic she's like a really true pop star in that just like oh god this could go any direction mold and we need more of those and she's like a student of the game she's a student of history she's got an amazing voice i love myly saris um in in in my grammies the climb has like 19 grammies in

my personal, the Grammys that exist in my head. In mine, Miley Cyrus, dead pets and her dead pets has a ton. Yeah. Flowers is not like I just, I'm, I'm, you know, I don't know. I don't want to put too much into asking the Grammys to make the right decisions because that is absolutely a fool's errand. And sometimes the way that, and like I'm glad that I don't have real horses in this race, right? Because the way that I often watch awards shows is just like, I want the people that I like

to be awarded. And so in that lane, thrilled Disney-Miley up there, loved her speeches, loved having her in the mix. That song does very little for me. And she's someone who I think has consistently made great albums.

And so it's just weird to me that this is the moment when she finally gets it. Well, it isn't to me because that song was ubiquitous and massive. Yeah, so was the Bruey. Bruno Mars song.

Yeah, but this one really was. I have a question for you to sort of wrap this up in a bow if we can, and I want to bring it back to where we started. Do you think she was surprised? Did you believe the... I think through the course of the night, I mean, like, first of all,

the Grammy should publish the results, not just the winners, because it would give such an interesting indication of where the Academy leaned, and who actually was resonating, and it just would tell us so much more, I got a little concerned as the night got closer to album of the year, that when Billy won and then Miley won,

that perhaps there was some split voting that was occurring in multi-choice democracy that was going to let, as we spoke about before, like Bonnie Raid's song from 2022, that that song won in part because people had voted for some other things, and two camps, you know, split vote, and a third ends up getting the majority. So I started to get a little nervous,

especially when Siza won. And this wasn't because I didn't want Siss to win. In fact, I think Sizz's album is awesome. And I thought if Taylor wasn't going to win that Siza was. Like, that's what the vibe I started to get was, maybe the voters just decided it's not time. They didn't feel like Midnight was strong enough to put her up over top of all these greats,

all-time greats, and they're going to make her come back and do it again. It's going to be just like reputation, where she says, I've just got to make a better record. But she wins and she looks at Jack. They both seem genuinely surprised. They kind of pull off the handshake that they did after 1989 and after folklore. That's their sort of, we just won the Grammy thing.

She goes up on stage and doesn't have her best moment, in my opinion, not worth dragging her over because clearly, you know, if I'd won the historical thing, I'd be confused too. I excuse the Celine interaction and the bit of her being all akimbo on stage because I think she was genuinely surprised to win. Do you buy that? So even to say that like we excuse it or don't excuse it, I'm just sort of like it wasn't good.

Like she probably regrets that moment. Wasn't her best moment. I mean, like, we've all had moments when we've said something in a weird way, acted strangely in a moment where I know, weren't you like, oh, Celine, Celine's right there. She's been sick. This is a big moment. Like, give her a hug or say hi or like acknowledge her.

And I think there was, there is potentially some genuine confusion over whether it's appropriate to hug her. Yeah. But she just kind of took the Grammy. She didn't even look at her and like have a moment in the way that she does with everybody. Like, that's who she is. She gives time to everybody. She gives love to everybody.

I'm saying that like the dumbest take possible out of that is like Taylor doesn't respect Celine Dion. Right. Having never heard Taylor speak about Celine Dion, I can say with I feel 100% certainty that Taylor Swift worships the ground that Celine Dion walks on. Yeah. And she did. She got up for her when she came out. So that that's not what it was about. It just we get used to her being perfect in these moments, don't we?

She fumbled that moment. I don't really know why. I think a strong possibility is that we are just all human and sometimes that happens. I do... She really wanted this, Nora. She wants the record. She cares about it.

She got it. Right. And it's weird to me that given what you said the last time we talked about, you know, where all the odds were that led to her seeming like the favorite at least going into the night.

Potentially by the time that that was happening, there were more, you know, the vibe was more like, oh, maybe there was some boat splitting, maybe this is going in a different direction. But where it seemed like there was at least a strong chance that she was going to win that award, it's a little odd to me

that she wasn't more ready for it. But things happen. Yeah. I agree with you because she has, you know, she's been devastated by, by nights at the Grammys before. So maybe there's a little bit of like, I'm just going to assume that I'm not getting it.

And then that gets into your system and you just get weird. I mean, pulling Lana up was a little odd. It didn't seem like she wanted to get out. She was nominated. She was on the album. So I don't know. I don't like,

it's a long night. She's been working hard. Maybe she just like had a moment. She's got a flight of Japan right now. She's been the biggest person. in the world, everybody's been on her. Yeah. Again, I think the criticism was largely unfair in some ways

to suggest that it was, you know, disrespectful or not. It just, it was interesting to see her like that, and in many ways, it's an interesting window into where she is and how much this meant to her. And, I mean, who knows? Jasey's on the nose speech also could have ruffled her a little bit too, but go ahead. Well, and to that point, I do wonder if there was a sort of, there was something going on in

her mind and just in figuring out how to spend that night at the Grammys, how she wanted to deal with potentially making history, how she wanted to do the album announcement, all of that. I wonder if there was a subcurrent to those choices that was about not making the Grammys seem like the most important. thing in the world. Because one... Like what Miley said in her speech. My life is great outside this.

Right. And I think that like... And that's in some ways an easier thing for Miley Cyrus to say than for Taylor Swift to say because there's a world in which Taylor Swift says like, my life is great outside of this. And it's sort of like, yeah, no, we know. Like, it's just, it's hard. It's a really hard line to walk.

And I do wonder, and I say this keeping a lot of space for just like, it's one random night at an awards show and stuff happens. And sometimes there's just not really a reason for it. But I do wonder if there was a little bit of an intention of, I don't want to highlight achievement tonight. And I don't want to highlight achievement in this space that ended up coming across a little bit as like, well, I don't need it. whatever. This is just another night for me. Which is in some ways true. She doesn't, I mean, is tortured poets

department any less of an anticipated cultural phenomenon if she just drops the album cover on Instagram randomly versus announcing it on stage? Not really. Creates a really fun moment for the fans. Which I mean immediately in her

acceptance speech, she said, you know, thank the recording academy, the way they vote. is a direct reflection of the fans. That's not really true, and she knows that, but she's spinning it to the fans immediately. Because more so than playing to the people in the room,

more so than playing to industry insiders, more so than playing to her peers in music. And I use the term peers loosely because I think part of the challenge right now is that she is peerless in a lot of ways. She's playing to the fans. And as a fan, I like it. But I get that it's hard.

and you sacrifice a little bit on the other end in order to do that. Well, she stands alone. There is no really judging best in music because it's all, you can sort of judge greatness, but it's impossible to judge best. But, you know, in a lot of ways, and one very important way with this award, she does stand alone. And it should be celebrated. Can I toss in there as a,

a somewhat non sequitur that I do, I think the vote splitting thing on some level is real. It just ultimately affected Olivia and not Taylor. And I think that's a bummer because that album rules. It does rule. And her performance was great. And it was wonderful to see peace in the realm.

No, but it was wonderful to see peace in the realm and Taylor up dancing and applauding for her and singing. And it feels like were there some hatchets to be buried? They seem to be underground at this point between the two of them. So that was nice to see her supporting. I'm not sure.

That was my takeaway, but... Really? When Taylor won, the camera cut to Olivia, doing a very slow clap. Okay. Okay, but I thought Taylor was up. My statement on this has always been what my statement is, which is sometimes

people cannot like each other, and that's fine. I don't know. I didn't, I felt much more harmony coming out of that. I will say that the, most interesting insight to me of her speech. My empathy for Celine, I think, got in the way of me. Like, I just was cringing when there wasn't an acknowledgement. But probably the most insightful part of it was...

The acknowledgement can be weird. Like, Miley about Mariah Carey was weird, but it was really charming. Yeah. No, no. But the insight for me in that speech was, I love the work. And that, in a nutshell, is Taylor Swift. She loves the work. She loves the process.

She loves to create the way that... that she gets it out in the world, and now the way in which she handles being the most famous person on the planet, the person who has talked about ad nauseum in American culture, more so than the rest of the world, but in the rest of the world, as we will see as she now begins to take that tour to Asia and Europe, in addition to the South American leg.

This is just a phenomenon of a human being, but at the core, it's driven by the fact that she loves the work. And the whole night was about that. She's created more Grammy-winning albums, than anyone ever. And in the night in which she broke that record, she introduced what we last expected,

even though she was doing the work right in front of us, which is TS11. And she, in the process, told us that there still remains an entire blue ocean of content for her to explore for TS12. So it just means there's more good shit ahead. We just got to keep her upright. As she flies to Tokyo, does these shows, and then gets on the plane and comes back to Vegas

as to, I don't know, do you still think? I mean, you were pretty wrong on the Billy Eiler song. Do we still have to stick to your prediction that the chiefs are going to win? I never said it wasn't going to win. I just said I don't like it. Well, do you like the chief still, Nora? I'm wrong about so many things that I don't care. But this is, we have the tape.

We can rewind the tape. Who is winning the Super Bowl, Nora? Are we going to have Taylor? Okay. So within one week, this woman is going to break the record for Grammys of all time album of the year. She's going to introduce her latest album. She's going to play shows in Tokyo,

and she's going to be standing on the field with her partner holding the Super Bowl trophy. She's definitely going to take a picture with the Grammy and a Super Bowl trophy in the same week. That's incredible. I hope she also tries to put the Lombardi trophy on every member of Boy Genius's house. How many times do you think Travis has asked how she came up with the album title Dead Poets Society? It's not its tortured poets department. But you think he keeps calling it Dead Poets Society?

Has Travis seen Dead Poets Society? Has he even heard this album? Many questions. They'll be answered in the future. Nathan, maybe we end there. We definitely end there. This has been every single album, the inaugural meeting of the tortured podcasters department.

I'm Nora Pintziati. As always, he's Nathan Hubbard. Thank you to Kaia McMullen for producing this episode. And we'll talk to you soon, I'm sure. Who knows what she's got up her sleeve, but it'll be something. So looking forward to that. All right.

Thanks. Bye.