Every Single Album - 'The Tortured Poets Department' | Every Single Album: Taylor Swift

Episode Date: April 21, 2024

It's the inaugural meeting of the Tortured Podcasters Department. Nora and Nathan discuss the rollout for this album and how Taylor Swift releasing an entire second album worth of bonus tracks affected it's reception (1:00), whether or not "Fortnight" is going to be the biggest hit off of this album (24:06), how Swift is grappling with her level of fame on a lot of the songs on this record (57:12), and the many, many, many easter eggs that are sprinkled throughout this album (1:17:32). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey. Hey. Hey. Can I talk to you guys for a second? Sure. Over 25 years ago, on September 29, 1998, we watched a brainy girl with curly hair drop everything to follow a guy she only kind of knew all the way to college.

And so began Felicity, the brainchild of J.J. Abrams and Matt Reeves, starring Carrie Russell. And me, Greg Grunberg, aka Sean Blumberg. It won't be confusing at all. And me, Amanda Foreman, aka Felicity's ReefiVell. roommate with the box. And I'm Juliet Litman. I was not on Felicity, but I remember every moment of it, probably better than these two do. All together, we'll be revisiting our favorite moments from the show

and talking to the people who help shape it. We talked to Carrie Russell, of course, because she's the best, and also Scott Spademan and Scott Foley. I was team Scott. I just want to lay that out there right now. And we also talked to JJ and Matt, the two brains behind this amazing series and many more people who work behind the scenes and in front of the camera. From Bad Robot Audio and The Ringer, this is Dear Felicity. Listen to Dear Felicity on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to every single album, the incredibly double-tortured podcaster's edition.

I'm Nora Finciatti. As always, I am joined by Nathan Hubbard. Nathan, we have two hours and two minutes of Taylor Swift here to discuss today. How are you feeling about it? Taylor, I love you. and I cannot stress this enough. It's ruining my life. Lights, camera, bitch, smile.

The torture post department is out. It was released in part at midnight on Friday. In part. In part. And little did we know. Not nothing did we know. There were hints, I suppose. But little did we know that two hours later

at 2 o'clock in the morning when I was delirious and a little inebriated. I was threading. Nathan was composing a thousand word Twitter threads, his pride and joy, his favorite pastime,

only for Taylor's Live to just absolutely destroy all of it by releasing the anthology portion of what turned out to be a double, album. Every piece sign she threw up that Post Malone was throwing up at the Super Bowl. The clocks at two. The clocks at two. The double album truthers were correct. And we have 31 songs to discuss on this podcast. Oh, no. No. I mean, it comes out. I listen to it. I start writing this thread.

a sudden, there's a ghost in the room. Like, the hair on the back of my neck is standing up. And I made a slight adjustment before I sent, which was hearing more good stuff is coming tonight, because I was. But in that moment, you just knew you were in purgatory. And... Well, and by that, for me, it was when Taylor Nation reposted someone's tweet being like, none of the lyrics in the Spotify installation are on the album. And Taylor Nation reposted it was like, huh, that's funny. And I just threw my hands up in the air and went, oh, my God. This woman, she will be the death of me.

She literally will be. Yeah. Somebody at some point has got to give her a nine to five job for six weeks. And then she will stop doing this. It is totally fine to release an album. And then a short while later, release another one. It's great. I welcome it.

And it was fun around an album called Midnights. But at 251 in the morning, when I'm on song 28, and I've got a board call in four hours, you're wearing me out, lady. First of all, I'm so sorry that happened to you. We all feel really bad. No, you don't. Second of all, what do you mean a nine to five?

I don't know. Anything that would make her have to get up like normal people and go to work at that time. Just make her observe normal waking hours. Yeah, yes. What is making Taylor Swift a consultant do to fix this? I mean, last weekend, it must be nice to be able to roll into electric carnival at Coachella at 315 in the morning and have the head hit the pillow. just after 5.30 and send out a few insta posts before then about the upcoming album. But the rest of us had got to go to work.

Here's what I will say. Here's what I will say. As discussed on this podcast last week, I had a fair amount of angst going into this release. And some of the things that I was worried about, spoiler alert, we're going to end up talking about in this pot. Yes, we are. I think the thing that made me just like feel a little bit, not glum, that's too much. but where those feelings were coming from was this kernel of worry of,

oh gosh, Taylor Swift album releases are like a holiday for me. It's a high holy day on the calendar. Is this one not going to be fun or not going to be as fun? And I'm absolutely here to say to you that I had a really fucking good time. I agree. I thought the same way.

And the reason the pro case for releasing it so late is that you get all of the riffraff goes to sleep. The real ones are the ones who stay up, and that's where the social platforms and just all of the back and forth is so much fun, because it's just this... The tweets were so good. Like, the tweets were just so good.

Yes, as somebody who started at Twitter pre-IPO, whose heart has been broken into pieces, I'm going to write 31 songs about this, about the state of the platform, it served its purpose. on Thursday night, early Friday morning. It was wonderful. And you know what?

It makes you feel more connected to human beings. It makes you feel less alone. It just, it's a wonderful experience. No, it just, people were getting their jokes off. It was so fun. It was also, it's just silly that everyone's up at 2 o'clock in the morning together. I really, I am so happy to say that that experience, which really since, since the sort of pandemic era albums, since folklore,

and through the re-releases to some degree, but especially with Midnights with this, like the being up really late at night on the internet when everybody's listening to Taylor Swift is incredibly fun and it continued to be incredibly fun. So I think that's just, that's a wonderful thing and I'm very happy that it happened. Anything else in the way of just sort of a vibes check for you right now?

Exhaustion. Look, Nora, this is her most controversial album since reputation, at least, if not ever. And it comes at a moment of unicorn level fame and adoration. It comes at a moment where she has the biggest tour in the world. She's still in the middle of it. Regardless of what critics and fans say, she now has the most streamed album of all time in the first day, she has probably the biggest relationship, most publicly facing relationship in the world right now. And it is kind of an unprecedented test. We'll talk about Travis, don't you worry.

Of fame and fan base and critical reception and the music. It's just this wonderful experiment, but I think what is most interesting about it is it's not really what I expected, Nora. So talk to me about most controversial.

What you mean by that? Well, I think... The reviews aren't awesome. The reviews aren't awesome. And I think the controversy starts for me within the fan base. Because this is a fan base

that much like this podcast spent years trying to convince other people that this was not just a woman who wrote about breakups, but an all-timer in the annals of musical history as a songwriter, as an artist, as a business person. And that defense gets, I mean, it's the thing that you and I have struggled with, which is like, hey, high fives everybody, we won. We were right. We bought Facebook stock, you know, early on and it became the biggest company on the planet. Like, we were in early on it. So now what is interesting about it? And the fan base's natural instinct, reflexive instinct is Taylor Swift is the best thing ever. Defense, defense, fight, fight,

fight. And when she releases so much content, to me, that becomes, that becomes white noise. if you aren't able to get into the nuance of talking about the actual reception to the art, right? I think people, there's a lot of people for whom Midnights was their favorite Taylor Swift album. But now we've got a record that comes at the peak of everything when she's clearly the best. There's a lot of people who didn't feel that way about Midnights, but there are. There definitely are. But she has been almost criticism proof from the fan base over this intense period of escape velocity into a level of orbit that candidly has not really been seen before because of

the confluence of technology and the internet and everything, right? So it's sort of as, we haven't seen this before. And this is the first time that she's put out music in that context. And I think I say controversy because when you read between the lines and there were leaks of this album that came out, and there were fan-based wars of the Swifties blaming the Ariana Grande fans for circulating it and MFing the record. But it is clear that this is not everybody's favorite album. And how they talk about it, how they support her and celebrate it, while still receiving what I think in some corners is reasonable feedback and constructive criticism.

in others is a social experiment in how to take shots at the biggest artist and biggest woman on the planet. How all of those things come together, I think creates a lot of controversy, how you talk about it, how you criticize it, and how you celebrate it. Yeah, no, I mean, look, even definitionally, the most diehard Taylor Swift fan on the planet, everybody's got a favorite album, everybody's got, even if they wouldn't phrase it that way, a least favorite album, right? Like we all love to rank them. We all have ones that we like better than, better than others.

I'll get to how I feel about this one and we'll obviously talk through it. Talking to people over the weekend, I got a lot more, okay, on second listen, on third listen, I'm getting more into it. Oh, this is interesting. I like this song. A lot more of that than,

holy crap, she's done it again. Like, there's a lot of, more talking yourself into this one. Yes. And to some degree, that's because I think it is an album that sort of reveals itself in layers and it rewards a close read.

But it's not an album that at least in my group texts and from what I saw online and from how I processed it myself went, oh, holy crap. Like, this is an all-timer. Right. That's not how it struck people even within the family. base immediately. The thing that's interesting to me, though, and why I asked you about sort of how you were framing the idea of it being controversial is that I think the fact that it is so long and just the novelty and the Taylor Swiftiness of it being a double album release,

to me it ended up blunting a little bit of that because there was a moment when I felt like things were gearing up for, oh, God, everybody's going to be fighting. And it's, right, it's going to be knock down, drag out. Taylor Swift is terrible. Taylor Swift can't write a song. Taylor Swift is the greatest artist who's ever lived. And then I just think the fact that there's so much to sort through and that the first two paragraphs of every story are surprised she had a whole second album ready. It kind of blunts everything, which is probably for the better. Yeah. But it's an interesting dynamic where I feel like there's so much, you know, the context of how people talk about her on the internet and the inevitable backlash to being the biggest star on the

planet. Right. That felt so present. And I felt like a little bit of that got drowned in just the amount of content that's here. Although maybe that's because I had a podcast to prepare for two hours. Yeah. We had 35 hours to prepare for 31 songs. That's a piece of it. The other piece of the controversy for me is I think you're right that in private a lot of people are having these feelings. But in public, the way that the fan base has

criticized has either been not at all or in the way that she viscerally strikes out against in multiple places on this record and chastises the fan base for over

controlling her personal life. protested too much. And for taking shots that are painful to her. That's the other big part of this is that on this record, there is animosity, there is clear animosity from Taylor Swift to the people who adore her and who take it upon themselves to fight her battles real or imagined. Correct. And then there is also the critical community that says,

seems to be glomming on, and here I'm talking about the New Yorker, New York Times, Paste Magazine, that are glomming onto the fact that she's a billionaire and on top of whatever mountain there is that exists of stardom and artistry, and that they're the cooler than thou critics that can't seem to shake that context and who are dismissing this work as a bit childish. Like how can she, at 34, with a billion dollars, still be singing about the same themes? and I personally fall into a different place and we'll talk about it. But it is gratitude that we get such insight

on the life of a unicorn. I mean, she tells us why she's still framing the world a bit like this, you know, like the girl in the bleachers from You Belong With Me. It's like right there in the pages of these lyrics, right? She grew up in an asylum. She was a precocious child

and sometimes that means you don't grow up. Like she tells us that. But after six years of, as she referenced in bejewed being in the basement, it's helpful context around the profile of this anti-hero that we've been twittering about, but who hasn't actually given us that much insight behind the scenes into what's been going on

over those last six or seven years. In a while. I do think that there's a distinction between some of the reflexive, well, she's a billionaire. Why isn't she grateful? which I don't even really begrudge people that response. I just don't care. And a different version of it, which is a little bit more resonant to me,

which is for all that she has and all that she's accomplished. And, you know, she did this with Apple Music as well. Spotify signs my paychecks. Great service. Use it every day. The fact that the logos are on every little piece of the rollout. and the question of why, when you have all this power, have all this ability,

don't you use some of it to not have to do this? That, to me, is a much more fair question than when you have all you have. Why are you still talking about your problems? Right. The corporatization of this rollout was a little eh for me. And that, I understand it. And look, to frame it this way, she has fought forever. And it's not new, by the way.

I mean, Taylor Swift's face was on the side of UPS trucks for years. It's just that it takes on a different... Capital One commercials. I frame it this way. She's fought for years to get control of her business. She now owns her art outright. There is a Taylor Swift touring logo on the posters. Like, she is a businessman.

and to borrow from Jay-Z. And when you have achieved that, it's not just enough to control it. The point of controlling it is when you are one of the largest consumer-facing brands on the planet, it's to actually then go be the business person that you are and make the most of that control and that ownership because you get to make choices about how you market your art.

there is something to the fact that she's marketing her art with those partners. But it's not lost on me. She put out the YouTube short video last night. In conjunction, interestingly, at the same time that she released her music video, the YouTube short is this cute thing of Travis mauling her while she's cooking. And it was sort of an interesting choice to release that at the same time that she put out a self-directed video where we're supposed to believe she might make out. with Post Malone. I was like... Posty. I was like, I might not have put out

the like wonderful sort of behind the scenes moment of you and your boyfriend at the same time that is clearly a very real moment and then try to get me to believe that you're going to make out with Post. I thought she and Post Malone had some chemistry.

Well, we'll talk about that. Fine. I also love the tweets where it has her with the face tats and not with them face tats and it says pre-Malone post-Moll. But she did the Spotify,

thing. She did the Apple playlist thing. She even put her music back on TikTok and created sort of a TikTok experience. Everyone should go listen to Nathan fighting for his life on Matt Bellany's podcast which I listen to all the time but I'm not coming up with the name of right now.

The town. The town. The town. About Taylor putting her music back on TikTok. Well done. I was proud of you. I was very proud of you for your reference. Yeah. Because I believe that. But that's kind of my point that I made there is the same one here, which is she's entitled now that she's fought for this control and gone through everything that she has to get that control to now show us when you are the CEO, you get to make these kinds of decisions. And here's how you actually market your art. I mean, it is. I don't think that she's not like entitled to any of this. She's totally entitled to it. It's just like. It's just like, does it rise to that level? It's not quite ick. It's on the ick spectrum. I'm just like, why with, right, you, you have earned all this power. is yours to exercise however you want.

I am a little bit questioning why the choice of how to exercise that is to like... Yeah. Slap a bunch of logos on everything. There's two things that it indicates. I mean, either number one, she didn't want to step

on a lot of music that's being released by her peers this spring. And I think the campaign and the shortness of it could be a reflection of not stepping on Maggie who put out her record a couple weeks,

of not stepping on Kay, of not stepping on Ariana, of, you know, Billy putting something up, Sabrina Carpenter putting up espresso, which is now going into the stratosphere. Like, she kind of contained the promotion. It also might have been quietly a reflex

from the criticism that we ourselves gave her about the way she introduced this album on stage at the Grammys that sucked the air out of the room. Which is that my brand new album comes out April 19th, It's called the Torture Poets Department. And kind of was a pretty commercial moment

in what was ostensibly a celebration of creativity. So there's that piece, which was maybe this was as much optically about quote-unquote staying in Elaine so as not to step on some peers that she cares about. But secondly, it also might just be a reflection of our attention span and the ever-scrolling move-on, you know, TikTokization of like, people's brains that she just feels like

a week is all I can do guys. A week is the only amount of time you're really going to pay attention to me. So I'm going to show up with Travis at Coachella. We're going to support Lana and Jack and everybody else. And then jungle Travis's new favorite band. And then we're going to do a week of a few installations and I'm going to send you on a snipe hunt around the world on a crazy scavenger hunt. But that's all we're doing. And that's for the crazies. The rest of you know it's coming. and popular culture is going to break through

and put this in front you and you're either going to like it or you don't. All right. Let's get into the categories because I want to start talking about this actual album, which I think is... Albums.

Albums. Albums. Albums. Albums. I don't know whether to call it an album or albums. I think it's an album. You're right. I think it's an album, too. I think it's a really long album. Our first category is biggest hit. And I mentioned just the sort of flood the zone approach of having 31 songs, which raises a pretty interesting question about what of this music is going to break through.

It is, Taylor is in a space where, you know, I'm not going to be surprised if we hear next week, oh, 31 songs from Taylor Swift's double album are charting and all of that stuff. So to a certain extent, people are going to listen to all of this. But if there's one song from this long collection of material that you think is really going to penetrate, people outside of the inner Swifty sanctum, what do you think it is? I think it's Fortnite. I think for the first time, she has two albums in a row picked a single that people can connect with and that they're going to like. I don't know that there are any giant hits on this album. I do not hear anti-hero,

where you and I heard that song, and not everybody loves it, but like the streaming data plays it out. That was a no-brainer. It is an all-timer in terms of big hits that people are going to love and know. It's one of her best choices of a lead single ever because it's a great song.

It's a great thematic kickoff. and it's catchy. It's a great song if you want to dig into the Easter eggs and the lore, but it's also a great song if you want to hear it on the radio and get it stuck in your head. Totally. Fortnite is slower. Fortnite has some suburban legends in it.

Fortnite has some starlight in it. Fortnite has some Post Malone in it. Are we getting a Fortnite featuring more Post Malone? in a couple of weeks. Oh, God. I mean, he's hiding in the trees. We'll talk about that in a second. I mean, she leads with the line that she's a functioning alcoholic.

We're going to have to talk about the drinking at some point on this pod, Nora. But, right. I mean, that to me was the song. Do you hear something else? Yeah. So, okay, let's just, I'm going to get this out of the way because I think I'm really, fascinated by a lot of the thornier corners of this album and its rollout. So I instinctively want to talk about them, which I don't want to mask the fact that I enjoyed listening to this album. I'm interested

in it. I'm engaged with it. I think there is an album's length collection, maybe one, not two, of material that I think is high quality and interesting and that I will come back to. I think I enjoyed the tortured poets department. I really don't like this song. You and I did not talk much. I had an unbelievably tough start to this album. That's what you told me. We did not talk much at all.

We just traded some texts. We laughed. We joked a little bit. But the one thing you told me was, oh, I had a rough start. Talk to me about the rough start. I was in a bad place, Nathan. So, okay.

I've been dying to hear this for 30. Five hours. There's just, it's just, there's no energy to it. The melody didn't grab me. I wish there was more post Malone. Wow. Lyrically, I, like, the functioning alcoholic thing is, is interesting from a sort of what does she want to tell us about herself right now perspective.

But I was a functioning alcoholic till nobody noticed my new aesthetic. All of this to say, I hope that you're okay, but you're the, it's, it was, I found it really clunky. I enjoyed your wife Waters flowers. I want to kill her. I thought that was fun. Your wife water's flower. I liked I took the miracle move on drug. The effects were temporary.

I like that too. Awesome. Yeah. But I didn't, I just found this. I found the melody a little dull. I found it from a production standpoint. like a Saturday night live spoof of what people make fun of Jack Antonoff for.

Yeah. And that really continued for me in the title track. The Torture Coast Department, which is the second track, because I just don't think that there is a critic in the world who wouldn't semi-derisively use the word twinkly for those synths. And that fucking drum loop is just like the guy

who does the I can define a Jack Antonoff song within five seconds of hearing it, I was like in a bad place. I will say when we got to Charlie Puth we declared Charlie Puth should be a bigger artist

When we got to Charlie Pooke Yes On chocolate. I was like I wasn't sure if she was having a psychotic break or I was having a psychotic break. Or I was having a psychotic.

It's the weirdest shout-out in a long time. Coming from someone who really liked voice notes, by the way. Yeah. Yeah, Charlie Puth. I want to sort of understand how you approach the beginning, though, from this perspective. And, like, there's some shit to go back to on Fortnite. It's like, what is up with Florida? Why do we have two Florida references?

What's going on with Florida? Yes, I have questions about this as well. The other one that I really have in the tortured poets department is why is it taboo to ask about someone bringing a typewriter to your apartment? If someone left a typewriter in my apartment, I would be like, what the fuck is up with your typewriter? Yeah, that's like leaving a washing machine in my apartment. Like, that is not a highly portable thing. And also just not a highly controversial thing. Just a thing that you could ask about.

A thing that you should ask about, really. Okay, but look, the approach, when you push play, the thing that is running through your mind in the lead up to this album and the way that the fan base just tizzyed themselves up is, is this song about Joe? Is this song about Maddie? Who's this song about?

where did you go when you heard Fortnite and then went to tortured poets department? Did you immediately glom onto, this is a song about Joe, this is a song about, how did you receive the songs as they started rolling through through that context? I mean,

they were both pretty clearly more Maddie than Joe. I think it is a mistake to go song by song and go, this is Joe, this is Maddie, this is Joe, this is Maddie. There are of course somewhere that that works. And somewhere

the backstory and the narrative I think enhances the listening experience. I think there are some where certain lines are quite obviously one person and certain lines are quite obviously someone else. The alchemy is very obviously in some ways a Travis song. Travis is not doing heroin,

heroin with an E wordplay. Yeah. When there's a person in her relationship history who has a publicly known has been to rehab for heroin addiction. Like, she's combining things. She's playing with ideas. Right.

Some of these were not going to be able to just say, this is who this is about. And I think this album works a lot better if you open yourself up to that. Yes. But the fact that the first two songs were, I hear more, I hear more Maddie than Joe, certainly. You know, the Dylan Thomas Patti Smith thing is fun.

And I also think that that refrain in the tortured poet's department, the song, like, it has a pulse for a second there. That I think is good and that I enjoyed. I would say to the extent that, that, you know, I pressed play and six and a half minutes in was a little... Not happy. Not happy. I wasn't... Digging the lyrics. And I don't mean that in terms of the stories that she's telling.

I mean, I think there's a thing that's happened since the folklore era where she feels a lot of freedom to write over melodies in this very loose way, which can be cool, but I think is maybe getting overused. Yeah, that's a good thing that's a good thing that's been out there. Nobody noticed my new aesthetic. That doesn't work for me as a line. Is it possible that that was a stylistic choice that she made about this record? No, I think it was. I just, I think that she could use a little bit more structure. I think she could use a little bit more structure in the production that she's getting.

I think she could use a little bit more structure in how she's writing to music or fitting music to the things that she's written. You know, I don't hate that take, although I think that the most exciting thing about this album for me is, I think it is lyrically insightful and fascinating. And I feel like I learn a ton about her. And I feel like macro level, this album was. her like in a place of real pain and we can talk about people are like well how does she hurt well you know the end of the six year relationship with joe apparently being ghosted by mattie healy somebody who she had had a 10 year crush on yeah but i mean that she is she has been a fan of this band and obsessed with that guy for a decade and so you know to be ghosted to get him quote unquote

and then be ghosted, clearly hurt. Well, and to have it goes so spectacularly badly, publicly, and then also privately. But it appears to me that this was, I mean, she vomited this record in response to being lovesick. And I think she just ran to the bathroom. And I am definitely making an analogy. I'm calling Jack Antonoff the toilet in that situation. I recognize that.

I think highly of Jack and I love the Bleacher's record and Dan, but she went to what was comfortable because she had to get this out. And after midnight's, you and I both said, we'll talk more about the collaborations

and what she's going to do going forward. But we both said, we hope that she works with different people because it feels like she needs to be pushed. And it is undeniable that across this record, there are sounds and melodies that we have heard before. And that falls both

on the production, and that's Jack and Aaron, and it falls on Taylor Swift because she is the crafter of some of these melodies that have been repurposed. But I almost think that this was her telling us her story with some background music in a lot of cases. And when I sort of receive it like that and focus on the lyrics,

I enjoyed tortured poets department, even though musically for me, it feels a little bit bland. I mean, look, I would make the case on tortured poets that the three verses are about Joe, Maddie, and Travis in order. And it's because, you know, on the outros of the chorus, she's saying, who's going to hold you like me? And those feel retroactive, like, retrospective almost,

like looking backwards. And then after the third one, she says, who's going to hold you? There's a pause. And she says, me. And so when I took it in that context, and that's just me applying a take and a filter, I sort of received the whole thing a little bit better,

and that for me set up the album, which does end in the alchemy, you know, mostly. I mean, there's Clara Boff finishes it there, but there is this sort of journey that she went on from the end of a very serious relationship that we still don't know very much about, and we can talk about that, to the rebound with Maddie,

to picking herself up off the floor and finding happiness. So I received torture poets better that way, but I definitely, Nora, had a much closer relationship with a Fortnite out of the gate. So with all that said, like, is there a hit on this record for you? So yeah, so can I, can I...

I will first of all, co-sign, I think narratively, this is a fascinating album. And largely, even though sometimes stylistically, I miss her... I miss a little bit of the... There's just a little bit too much quill pen

for me right now. I do think, that the stories that she's telling and the manners in which she's telling them lyrically and the places that she's going are really interesting and really engaging on this album. Is it the floweriness of the language? It's the lack of structure. It loses a little bit of specificity.

Also, there's a difference between music and poetry. Music and poetry have close relationships, but there is a difference. There is a structure that exists in service of a great pop song. that is not always, you know, the Venn diagram between that and letting words unspool as poetry on a page is not a circle. And I'll get to some examples where, you know, there are a couple lines on this album where I went, oh, that's a, oh, actually, no, I can get to this right now. Because I want to, I'm saying a lot of the things that I didn't like, but there are things that I really loved on this album. And after having a tough time with the first two songs, I love the third song. love my boy only breaks his favorite toys. That melody is completely stuck in my head right now.

I wanted her to add it to the Erez Tour set list. I wish there was one more big chorus on the end. Yeah. I like how it ascends at the end, though. Yeah. Yeah. But that I just want to do the, you know, the, oh, uh, oh, with a big crowd of people. I think it's really cool. There's a little bit of Is It Over now in that song, Nora. It's fine. You know, I like the song. Like, I'm, I really go back and forth on, I'm really generous to repurposing stuff from, from past songs, if it works out. And I just think that this works. I think it is catchy. I found I'm queen of sandcastles he destroys to be particularly vivid. Like, that's just one of those things where I can see it. I have this image of, of, of, you know, Taylor Swift feeling a little bit unhinged, like left stranded on a beach with a sandcastle that someone has trampled over. And I just have it in my mind's eye. And, you know, that's a metaphor.

It's not specific songwriting in the sense that she's saying danced around the kitchen and the refrigerator light. And we take that as an image of something that actually happened. She calls herself a queen later on in the smallest man who ever lived, so it's an interesting parallel. It just felt like it felt like something that I could see being lived in in a way that some of the more poetic flowery writing feels esoteric. And I'm not, I'm not saying that that's inherently a bad thing. I'm just saying that the percentages were doing a lot of that. And I wish we were doing a little bit more of this. But, you know, to land the plane here, I think my boy only breaks his toys as catchy as fuck.

And I think a lot of people are going to like the song. And I think if she put it on the tour set list, people would really enjoy it. And I think it's, it's, this to me is one of the songs that sounds like it could break through. Do you think there's any other hits on the? album. So I keep seeing tweets about a lot of people streaming the Black Dog. How you don't miss me in the Black Dog when someone plays the starting line and you jump up. And I'm surprised by them in one sense because it is a bonus track and it didn't come out until the 2 a.m. edition. But I'm Goo Goo for that song. So if those are to be believed, then I credit the public for

their exceptional taste. It is undeniably the best song on the album. And by the way, it's a Jack song. I mean, first of all, she iPhone stocks? I love it.

She's just like us. I mean, you don't think that Taylor's using location services? No. I'm stunned that she would even open herself up to that level of thing. But yes, I love that she iPhone stocks. And I, this was one where I did go to, is this Joe, is this Maddie? And I started on Joe because I was like, did Maddie really? I just can't see Maddie Healy sharing his location. It seems like a non-rockstar thing to do. And I would read,

if someone wants to do this blog post, like a thousand words on, Every rock frontman by whether or not they use Find My Friends. Yeah. Or Life 360 or whatever. Yeah. The Old Habits dice-creening part is great. But for me, the keys were, well, smoke. Yeah. Snaps for Jack Antonoff, when those like, electro pulse heaviness comes in.

That's cool. That's very cool. I think that's, I think musically, that's the most interesting moment and, and, beautiful moment on the record. Lyrically, I think we've sort of defaulted in many cases, just assuming now that smoke is Maddie, right? Smoke equals Maddie. Yeah, which I don't know. I mean,

Joe Owen was smoking with the boys. Right, and also known collector of vintage what's the little lighters, yes. Zappos or whatever. No, I meant lighters. Oh, gee, there's so many words. she's throwing at you. You're starting to forget the normal ones. There's a Joe smoking with the boys. There's a Travis joke to be made there, but I'm going to let it go by. Well, right. Joe's smoking with his boys on you're on your own kid.

She had a lighter on the cover of midnight. So I don't know that necessarily the smoke is necessarily Maddie. But for me, the clue in the Black Dog was when she said rain-soaked body. Miss me in the shower And remember How my rain-soaked body was shaking And I'm pretty sure This is a song about Maddie Because guess who was there

At the Rain Show in Nashville That ended at 1.30 Where she got a police escort Back to her place in Nashville At O Dark 30 in the morning And she looked like, you know, a wet rat. And in the seat next to her Was Maddie Healey.

Okay. I mean, there's also the fact that the starting line, the band that gets name checked in that song, I believe the 1975 has covered them. Yes, exactly. So this is a Maddie song. The starting line had no right. Writing that song is 17 years old. And it's great. It's absolutely great. This is maybe another example of my tendency for just the, for the slightly plainer lyrics. I'm not sure there's a lyrical moment that I'm more charmed by on this entire album

than I hope it's shitty in the Black Dog. That's just great. I love when she's petty and it just made me smile and the image of Taylor Swift staring at find my friends on her phone just like sniveling and being like, well, I hope it sucks there.

It really works for me. Do you think she shares her location? She can't, like, just from a security perspective, there's no way she does, right? It really sounds like Taylor Swift uses find my friends. Why was this song not on the main record? Like, this is... Well, so it's a...

It's one of the bonus ones on some of the vinals. And I do think I'm kind of split on those. I love the black dog And I also really like the bolter The manuscript and the albatross are the other two Maybe she just wanted to do the ones The ones Cross your thoughts you

And she wished she was 30 And made coffee every morning In a French press She just thought that having the Having the article was somehow That's probably right That's probably right Speaking of structure, yes.

I love the Black Dog. I love the bolter. The other two, the manuscript I'm fascinated by just in the sense that why did she choose this song about a reflection on a past age gap relationship as the end of this 31 song journey? I don't have an answer to that for you, but I'm really interested in it. musically I'm less interested in the song the albatross fits into that too but I do think that you know two of those two of those bonus tracks I think are really strong

so I have to I have to be honest with you I love the prophecy but by the time I got through the prophecy it was three in the morning Eastern I had you know songs 27 through 31 left to go it started to feel like a hostage situation like when I play music for my kids kids at some point,

they're like, dad, it's, it's enough. Like, they feel like, hopefully they don't use the F word, but they're like, it's a hostage situation. Like, you're holding,

like, we're done. It's enough already. This felt like a hostage situation to Aaron Destner's hard drive. And so Cassandra, Peter, the Bolter, Robin,

the manuscript, lyrically, I think there's some stuff in there. But in terms of their sort of musical contributions to the experience, my eyes at this point were glazed over. And even still, I feel that way. I just didn't get much out of any of those. Although I do think that the prophecy is one of the songs on the album that I will come back to.

I agree with that. That's also a song where she's doing the quill pen thing, but it it works for me. It's good. Slow is the quicksand, poison blood from the wound of the pricked hand. Still, I dream of it. That's where it works.

Slow is the quicksand, poison blood from the wound of the pricked hand. And... I love the Aaron countoff in the beginning. Sure.

Yeah. But, you know, she's believing, there's like desperation here. She just is believing that there's no one there for her, which again, contextualized a billionaire biggest star in the world, some apartment in New York City or Nashville or Los Angeles,

a house in Los Angeles, feeling like she's totally alone. Right. You know, what I was thinking of by the time she got there, because you're two, your three, no, sorry, your two tracks after Thank you, Amy, which we obviously have to talk about. Yeah.

Where one of the things that that song brought up for me, besides the obvious, was the way that she's talking about pride in what she's accomplished and where she is, which is not something that you get a lot on this record. You get a lot of, you get a lot of angst. You get a lot of I would throw it all away, and this is a cage and this is a prison, and this is hard.

But thank you, Amy, is one of the only moments where you get, I'm proud of the legacy, I'm proud of the work. And then to come back two songs later, with the prophecy, which is basically the thing that's ripping me up inside is I'm not sure if I will ever be able to be in love and do this at the same time. I found that pretty, you know, again, maybe this is my own 3 a.m. delirium about what she's saying, but I found that pretty, pretty potent. Don't want money. Just someone who wants my company. He wants being me. Yeah, it's like a soulmate with peace, isn't it? It's kind of the other.

side of that coin. Would it be enough if I could never give you peace? That I heard too. I mean, are we going to do thank you, Amy, now? Let's save it a little bit. Okay, we'll save it. I mean, look, to pull it back to where you were, I had kind of a me reaction to my boy only breaks his favorite toys.

I think you're right that sort of that, that melody. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that that melody was fine, but I was a little bit like, and this sounds not that differentiated for me. Where I got into this album was Down Bad. Everything comes out teenage petulant.

Because I think down bad for me is one of three or four songs that I will absolutely unequivocally come back to. And I love everything about it. I love the fuck it if I can't have him. I just fuck it if I can't have us. I really flipped out on this one. I thought it has a lot of call it what you want vibes in it,

which is probably part of it. But I started on the Joe stuff here because you can tell. It's like a much more fatalistic. Yeah. Call it what you want. Like she won't say, you know, in the line where she says, how dare you say that it's the rhyme would have been over,

but she doesn't say it. So she won't even say in the song that it's over. That idea of just being in the gym. I don't know. I just, I loved everything about this song melodically. I loved all your indecent exposures

felt like a reference to Maddie and his faux masturbation and taking his shirt off on the last tour. Is Maddie Healy Taylor Swift's twin? Like, is that how she thinks about it? Is that what the obsession? Is that what it's been about?

I don't know. Just even if you take out all the Maddie context. Maddiella Gemini? Probably for crying out loud. As one, I can tell you. What if you just been like, yeah, no, he's an Aries. I don't know.

But Downbad is awesome. The twin, there's a Carly portion of the internet that reads lost my twin in a very specific way. The same corner of the internet that reads not a twin from your dreams. She's a crook who was caught in a specific way. way. In fact, what she seemed not a twin from your dream, she's a crook who was caught.

What I love about, I think the flow on this song, I think is so cool. I mean, the way that she, you know, fuck it if I can't have us. The consonants there come out of her mouth in a way that's smooth. Staring at the sky, come back and give me off,

fuck it if I can't have us. Which is cool on a song about emotional turmoil. I don't know that I've gotten there with the melody. Yet. I love the verse. I love the sheer

fuck it of it all. So I will get back into that and see if it grabs me in the way that it grabs you. Go to the verse. The verse melody just gets me every time. In a field in my same old town

that somehow seems so hollow now. It's my favorite. I think it is my outside of Black Dog, it's my favorite song on the on the album. Okay. So I think you, just to keep track of where we are in our categories here, I think you've moved into best song. And you are saying that you think the Black Dog is the best song on this record, but you have either a very close second or just a very special place in your heart for Down Bad. I have Down Bad second. Yep. For as much as I love the Black Dog, and I think that that is a special Taylor Swift song that I'm going to come back to a lot.

I think who's afraid of little old me is the best song on this record. Whoa! I want to get just how disturbed this has made me. That, again, I told you that I had a tough start to this. When I got to that song, and by that time, I'd certainly enjoyed a lot more, that was the first song that made me move,

like where the hair stood up on the back of my neck, I think the strength of the tortured poets department and the part of this album that makes me excited and really engaged with the creative space that Taylor Swift is in right now is what's changed about the stories that she's willing to tell about how she feels. And to hear her, I mean, first of all, there's more energy on this song than anywhere else in. the entire other 30, I think. She sounds wild, like wild and crazy. Yeah, she's playing a part, right? In a way that she's writing about. And it's a little, it's a little funny.

The song is a little funny. But it's not a joke. A little funny? It's not a joke, though. Yeah. I mean, I'll say this. Who's afraid a little old me? Well, I sure fucking am.

We all should be. Just the, she's almost at a screech. Yes. And it really woke me up. And I think the fact that she's willing to write about feeling like a feral, caged animal who wants to spring up from the almost dead and like float over the town haunting people and fucking things up for everybody who's wronged her. That is a place that I am interested to. hear from Taylor Swift in. It's percolating across other songs.

I mean, but Daddy I Love Him is kind of double middle fingers to a big portion of the fan base. But this is where it's sort of... Are we, Daddy? Cute... I don't think so because Daddy seems to always be in the suite with the boyfriend at the first concert that he arrived at. So you think... Okay.

We'll come back on that one. Okay. Let's come back on that one because that song. needs its own full breakdown. Is tree pain daddy? Potentially. Potentially. This one, she sort of channels all of that anger and rage here. I mean, that the, you don't, you have no idea just how disturbed this has made me. You wouldn't last an hour in the asylum where they raised me. I mean, she's telling us, I put narcotics into all of my songs. There's this like evil, ghosty Halloween, the weirdo who puts razor blades in the apple. kind of shit.

That'll sue you if you step on my lawn. Like, again, I think... But she has. There's so much... Right. She has. There's so much of her history. As an artist, but I think more so as a celebrity, as a public figure, where you can read

it as the person who is sort of, who is trapped in this prison of like, ability, right? And I'm a normal girl. I mean, there was a, there was an article in the cut this week that was really, that was interesting and well done and something that I think a lot of people, an idea that sort of has percolated around her of Taylor Swift using her clothing to telegraph, I'm a normal girl in a way that has become harder and harder to pull off, right? The more that her life just simply cannot mirror, you. those of most people and most of her fans. And I think it's really scary for anyone who's, who lives life in the public eye, because the idea of relatability is, is something that, you know, there's this paradox of we want to hear from these special people and we want to anoint them as, as, you know, gods who walk among us. But then we also want them to be just like us.

and I think it's been hard for her to shed some of that. And when she does it, I just sort of automatically am really interested in it. I don't want to short change the fact that I also think that this is one of the better melodies. Do you not hear Wildest Dreams in the chorus? A little? Yeah. This is like evil wildest dreams. That's a cool song. My son loves this.

This is his favorite song on the album. It slaps. It completely slaps. I mean, the beginning of the, so I leap from the gallows and levitate down your street, I think that's a really, really, that's an earworm. That line is an earworm to me. So I leave from the gallows and I levitate down your street. Both in the imagery of it and also in the melody on that portion.

I also, I want to point out that this is. one of the ones that she wrote by herself. And, you know, as we talk about where the production is helping and hurting, I can't help but point out that two of my favorite songs, my boy only breaks his favorite toys, and who's afraid of little old me, were Taylor Swift compositions in their entirety.

There are songs that I really like on, tortured poets that Jack worked on. There are songs that I really like. really like that Aaron worked on. I just, I'm just, I'm noticing that Taylor working alone is something that, uh, and the Black Dog that works really well. I really thought you were going to say the smallest man who ever lived. Now you know what it feels like.

Also a great song. Also one of the album highlights. I mean, no, I'm like, I am, I am flipped for who's afraid of little. old me. I'm kind of flipped for the smallest man who ever lived. That's my third favorite song on the record. And to what you said earlier about

the structure of her lyrics, this to me feels like a song that the lyrics sort of are determining the music. I mean, it's got the Aaron Desner time signature alert. I think it alternates between 12-8 and 16-8,

but the lower part of her vocal register here, is just devastating. And I don't miss what we had, but could song. A message to the smallest man who ever... Yeah. The breaths. The way that she just...

It's a weapon. And, I mean, really, mercy. It is so great on this song. Who the fuck was that guy? There is just a directness about this song that is wonderful. And, I mean, you don't... didn't measure up in any measure of a man. R-I-B.

Maddie's junk, right? I mean, is this a... Is this a... Is this a genital joke from Taylor Swift? You know, it's a great question. Because a lot of the album begs the question of what was so compelling. Yeah.

About this man during the, you know, fortnight, give or take that they spent together. Listen, problematic or not, go watch the Amazon video or whatever it is of the 1975 live from Madison Square Garden or from London.

This is a very, very good frontman. Oh, we all love the 1975. He's the kind of frontman that you can imagine 10 years ago, Taylor Swift, could have become obsessed with. He's only gotten better since then.

Yes. I'm just saying that your question is not one that I haven't given some thought to. You think Maddie can F? I mean, I don't think that she was entranced by this man because of his sparkling, shining personality. I don't think it was about the deep commitments

that he made to her. I mean, you said normal girls were boring? Like, what a massive loser. So, I suppose it might have been something else. but I am speculating. Who do you think the friends of friends are who we tried to buy pills from? It's a really good question.

Yeah. Like, it's not Emma Stone. How do we reconcile this where she says, I'll never forgive at the end? And I'll forget you, but I'll never forgive. How do we sort of reconcile that

with what she said in the intro letter to this that everything, you know, when she's across social media, at least, when she said everything is closed, this chapter of the author's life is closed and she's moved on. I don't believe her. Oh, me neither.

That's my, that's my Hiddleston Award. I commend her for doing it because I think to some degree and credit to you for predicting that she would do this, it was an attempt to call off the dogs and say, you know,

don't cyber bully over this album. It's just an album. Yeah. And I give her credit for giving it or all and trying to make a compelling case that that's true. I think that she believes what's on this album. I think this album exists

because Taylor Swift felt that she had to make it. A hundred percent. She had to do this. To get over this stuff. And Jack and all of the studio, crew and their posting have said very clearly, like, they were her emotional support animals. I think she sort of fell into them. And they're all talking about how it came in with so much

sadness. And this is an achingly sad album from start to finish. It is achingly sad. And you and I joke and laugh about it. But like, this was a person who was deeply sad, deeply depressed. And it feels like she ran to the safety. of these people who she's created art with before. And in a lot of ways, I think they resuscitated her. And I'm sure that the Travis relationship then sort of carried the last mile.

But going in with so much sadness and what sounds like coming out with a lot of joy is kind of the experience of this album, even if musically that's not how it flows from front to back. Yes. I think all of that resonates with me. I don't... Again, I'm...

This is not like... I commend her for making the announcement. I just don't believe it for a second. Well, are there any other songs... That's how I fit those two weeks together. Are there any other songs in this that for you have consideration for Best Song? So, co-sign on the smallest man who ever lived. I mean, honestly, I'm really...

Look, things can change. We've had the album for a few days. I right now feel incredibly secure that who's afraid of little old me is. is my standout. I think the Black Dog, smallest man who ever lived are the other are sort of in the top tier.

Like those to me are those to me are sort of canon Taylor Swift songs that I'm very confident 10 years from now when I'm going back and sort of going and of course she'll be on album

32 by then. Those are going to be on some on some lists for me, on some playlists and some, you know, ranking lists or whatever. Not a lot of bangers there, Nor. But I'll give some honorable mentions, um,

to my boiling breaks his favorite toys. I like so long London a lot. But we're going to talk about that as track five in a minute. I like, I like, but daddy I love him. I don't totally know to do with it. But I like it a lot.

Yeah. Yes. No, that's a great song. It's awesome. Went to my parents and they came around. All the wine moms are still holding now. Fucker. Eat shit, Hannah's and Sarah's and wine moms and vipers and creeps.

I mean, the ending of that song is awesome. Yeah. I mean, I like the whole song, too. Yeah, I know. It's terrific. The pregnancy fake out is so funny. Unbelievably awesome. But also, like, my name is mine alone to disgrace.

I mean, there's some serious, serious scolding of the fan base on that song. Yes. It matters. Yes. Drag me, queen. And then I can do it with a broken heart. I also really like.

You do? Yeah. I like, I mean, there's a lot of supercut by Lord in that song. Yeah, I mean, look, there's also a lot of math. There's a lot of mastermind. I mean, that voice, that one, two, three, four. That voice sounds very much like her manager, Robert Allen.

I don't know if it is or not. But that, that, that's, that feels like his voice. I love the way it ends. It feels like it could have been real. You know, there's always those TikToks of this is what Taylor Swift hears in her earpiece on stage. Like, this is the cue. Something about the atmosphere of the way that they put that little thing in felt, you know, either because they did a good job of replicating it or because they used something that was actually from the production felt very like it was done in a big stadium. Like you felt sort of the boom of that cavernous space. Yes.

Yes. 100%. It feels like a mashup of a bunch of midnights on purpose because what you're really doing is you're inside her head as she's destroyed but having to go up on stage and smile for you. By the way, it kind of dampens the enjoyment of the show, doesn't it? See, yeah, I don't know. I really... Makes sense why she was so happy when we saw her together in L.A. and why the energy was different than, yeah, when you and I said,

she was, she was on her way with Travis at that point. Look, again, I'm the kernel of, this is obviously not people's main takeaway of thank you, Amy, but I'm interested in the kernel of it, where she acknowledges how proud she is of the legacy. I don't think that Taylor Swift is like the heirs tour fucking sucks, and I've hated every second of it. No, no, that's not what she said.

No. But she does say, I'm so. depressed, I act like it's my birthday. Yes. I'm miserable and nobody knows. Because I'm miserable. That's so fun. She's a goof. I love when she's a goof.

Try and come from my job. On songs about being horribly, horribly sad. It does not, to me, it doesn't dampen it just because I think it's a it's a very human it's a very human thing to acknowledge.

and I think if we were expecting that Taylor's... What? Fans screaming for more? Where she's like, is it not enough? She's needling. She's needling a little bit. She's like, I'm, you know, my trainer's giving interviews saying that the average person would vomit

if they tried to do my workout routine. Right. And you want more for me? She's upset at the fan base to some degree, at some parts of the fan base. She's upset. She's been hurt. Sure.

I am so interested in her willingness to acknowledge that. And I'm pleased by it. And I think it's interesting. I think it's brave. I think it's compelling. I don't personally feel stricken by any of the like, why aren't you more grateful? That's weird to me.

But I guess if somebody, if, you know, that's a bummer if someone hears, I can do it with a broken heart and is less thrilled. by the tour because of that, but that's not at all my experience. I think so. There is some irony, though,

in the fans. I think she's telling us almost bullying her out of love and driving Maddie away because I think he ghosted her is what we're hearing from this record and that it was in response

to all the Sarahs and Hanas and blah, blah, blah, yes. But then all of those people showing up in a stadium asking for more, asking her to dance, do it. And while she is destroyed by their actions, there is this sort of like Harley Quinn joker-esque fake smile

to I can do it with a broken heart that is melodically super happy. But by the end, and here's where I think some of the production is good, it sounds like she's almost spiraling the sounds that you would imagine someone going back into the institution, the mental institution, or hearing in their head, right? There's that sort of crazy person's twisting of notes and... Live, laugh, lobotomy. Yeah, exactly. That's what this song really feels like to me. And then the understanding that follows in The Smallest Man Who Ever Lived, where she sort of is moving on and moving through it. And then the next song is, here comes Travis. So there is definitely a

sequence that is intentional to those songs. And I wonder actually I mean first of all This does not fit the point that I'm trying to make here But just since we moved off The smallest man who ever lived kind of quickly When the tempo Changes

And she gets into the You know where you sent by someone Yeah Where you sent by someone It's really good It's just really affecting And it's like I mean You feel the emotion

and the intensity of that, and I think that's just so well done. I'm interested in your idea that the sequencing is intentional from I can do it with a broken heart to the smallest man who ever lived to the alchemy because the alchemy being one of those songs

where some lines are so clearly, Travis, and some lines are so clearly not. Yeah. I almost wonder if parts of it were, you know, she did a little bit of rewriting and did a little bit of like, oh, you know, let's put some, let's put some kill a trabb into this one.

Yeah. The stages of grief are pretty well reflected in starting with who's afraid of little old me, right? There's that anger, then it's like denial, I can fix him.

At the end of it, she says, whoa, maybe I can't. So there's sort of that acceptance. Love of my life ends, well, L-O-M-L, ends with you're the loss of my life. And I freaking believe her. That is one of the most powerful lines of the album.

then she's sort of faking it for us. Also, are you calling it L-O-M-L? Like, from henceforth, when we refer to that song. Yeah. In my head, it's loss of my life. Okay. I think that makes the most sense. I keep saying Lommel,

which I can't go on like that. It's not Lommel. That sounds like a weird animal. Like a llama mixed with a camel. You make a lommel. It's like a donkey. I think Taylor was petting some loamels at the zoo in Australia. But there is intent to the flow on some of these songs.

And I think you're probably right. And then it ends with Clara Boe, which is... I loved it. I thought it was really clever. This transition from Clara to Stevie to Taylor Swift. And there is this sort of... I love how she says Taylor Swift. I love hearing Taylor Swift say Taylor Swift.

Me too. But it ends with just... this little bit of insecurity. There's always someone who's next. Maybe that's why she's creating so much. And so go out to 30,000 feet and look at the forest and not just the individual trees. And you do have this journey of Joe to this.

And we need to talk about London, so long London. Because in my head, it's actually the only song on the album that is explicitly about Joe. And it feels to me like that's all she actually needs. to say because it's so direct and so poignant to me, lyrically. But it does flow to the maddy stuff and all of the emotions that come from a rebound. And a lot of those emotions tied to a rebound are actually about the relationship you're rebounding from. And then finding Travis and getting to this point in her life now,

where if she's going to settle with Travis, and I'm not, you know, whatever, but if she's going to settle with Travis, she's now 34, going to be 35. If she is going to say, settle with Travis. I cannot say this clearly enough. Kick the bros out of the house, man. Tell him to leave. It's time to go. Why are we hooking up with video games in the background? And that's, I mean, so high school is, I enjoy it. And I think it's. Great song. Love the song. Love the lake Taylor Swift does sixpence none the richer. That's extremely my shit. Touch me while your bros play Grand Theft Auto is that might be the most devastatingly

sad lyric on this entire thing. But it is consistent with the way that we see Travis, isn't it? He was probably like, do you like, do you like nachos? You know, these guys are playing video games. Do you want to play video games?

Or do you want to go to my room and I can show you my, I can show you my snow globe. Oh. She loves to snow globe. He's not like that. He's not like that. Travis is not. I'm making the job.

Travis has not beaten the not a very good muse allegations on this album, I will say. But there is still a lot of time. Well, Clara Bow does have that sort of speculative how long is she doing it? How long does her career go for? To me, there's a little bit of insight

into the manic nature with which she creates. Because if this is actually, you could absolutely help me, well, not help me, you could get me to believe that somebody sat her down early on in L.A.

in a bunch of suits and said, you've got Stevie Nix, right? You're the next Stevie Nix in 1975. And her understanding from the crowd, looking at all the pop girls and rock girls up on stage in Coachella last weekend, and I think she might be there this weekend too, we'll see.

And seeing, hey, there is a next generation that is fully removed for me that's going to be pumped up and there's going to be the next, maybe not the next Taylor Swift, but the next big star. And that level of reflection is a fitting,

and as she sort of dials out from this emotional journey that she'd been on over those six years. Yeah. I get, that makes intellectual sense. I have to say that I get such a clear sense from this double album, that this is a person who, when she experiences things in life, just has to do this.

Yes. That I don't get, I don't get a sense of I'm about to slow down, but we'll see. may not be slow down, but if you draw the lifeline of her career, it is possible that we're at that peak, right? And that in a good way, as people get more comfortable with her relationship and stop treating it like they're seeing a Pegasus in the wild, that there will be a little bit of, instead of a boil, it's going to go down to a simmer. And maybe she'll get not to some level of normalcy, because I'm not sure that's ever going to be the case, but to a place where she can

have a little bit more of a life. Anyway, Can I tell you that I'm laughing because just as you were saying that, I got a, I saw a text pop in from a really dear friend of mine being just like, simply how do you digest 31 songs? What should I do? Do I listen? Do I carve out two hour listening blocks at a time? Do I listen to every song twice back to back to internalize it? Do I do, do I listen to them as two different albums? Like, yeah. Sending people through the ringer. It's true. And we're trying to digest all of it. And I, I, I, I would say so high school is a fun song, and I really like it. And again, like, you know what you wanted. And boy, you got her. Everybody, just please shoot your shot. Just shoot your shot.

It worked. But some of the energy from that song to me, which, by the way, sounds a little bit, it's got a little bit of, well, whatever. Is it to me, well, it's youthful. It's a little carefree. It's when you put that against all of this. emotion that came from these brooding British boys, you know, as she says, whatever, the blokes, the bench warmers or whatever, which very clearly is a reference to the British guys who are all in

their feelings. It makes this relationship with Travis makes sense because it seems like he is fun and easy and confident. And yes, a little bit youthful, but not wrapped around the axle of his own shit. And, you know, there's a wonderful sort of like, yin and yang between them that that she's sort of telling us the story of here. Anyway, okay, Travis, it's great. Fantastic work. Like, this is not the Travis album. I'm sure we'll get the Travis album.

The Travis album's going to be awesome. The Travis album's going to be like electronica and rock and something that he can play at his music festival and like head bang to. It's going to be so fun. And I do think that so high school is that's what it'll be. I think so high school is that next album appetizer. because I think if this relationship continues, and she is teaching us about this relationship

via the emotions and feelings and understanding the place that she was in when she got up off that floor, it's also what's so hard about over-investing in these feelings for me that she's communicating across this entire record because it's so 180 degrees different from what we're seeing right now. She seems to be deeply and publicly in love,

and it's like, okay, well, I guess, that you were there, but from what I can see, you've gotten to a really good place. I do think that maybe that's in the entirety of the art, that's kind of the nice silver lining lesson of it all. But anyway, she's going to deliver a banger, banger album with Travis Kelsey. You know how to ball. I know Aristotle. I mean, it's Shakespeare. Nora, what would you cut? Well, I'd cut a few things, Nathan. Um. to me. So here's the deal.

Here's a deal. And this maybe feeds into some of the conversation about, you know, the costs and benefits of working with collaborators who you're this comfortable with, right? And I think it was probably necessary on an album that dealt, as you said, with this emotionally heavy content. And she needed them to sort of be handholders and just be emotional support producers. Yeah. I don't get the sense that anyone is telling her no.

or putting any constraints into the process. And as we say, constraints often breed creativity. Yes. And I'm not sure that there are 31 songs worthy of a full Taylor Swift album here. I think there's probably one album's worth of really good material here. I would personally cut the first two songs. Oh, my goodness. I've told you that I did, you know, Fortnite does not work for me.

Tortured poets, I mean, damn, I would hate for myself to have lost the ability to experience the Charlie Puth moment. But it would have saved her a lot of like people dunking on it online if we hadn't had that one. I would absolutely cut the alchemy. I'd cut the albatross. I'd cut, I hate it here. Oh, I liked I hate it here.

Oh, I liked I hate it here. Oh, I don't like, I hate it here. Oh, I love the, oh. Okay, tell me what you like about it. I just love the line and the melody of the line. I'm not, I can't really get attached to the, I want to live in the 1830s without all the racists of getting married for the highest bid.

Taylor, name one thing you like about the 1830s. What, yeah. Is it the industrialization? I loved, I loved all the people being like, choose a better decade. Yeah, it's not her best decade for sure. It's missing a moment the song is, but I love the melody of I hate it here. But I get it. What else would you cut?

I would also cut guilty as sin. No, really. Yeah, I mean, shout out Taylor writing a masturbation song, but it just, the melody doesn't do anything for me. She steals about you from the 1975, for sure. And the reference to downtown lights by Blue Nile,

which was lifted by, I'd love it if we made it by the 1975. So this is, I kind of like this song because I think it's a 1975 song, but. Yeah, I mean, is I'm going to, going to get you back also a 1975 song

Yeah fly like a short skirt the one that fits me like skin Both in stylization of the title and in it's also a little bit of an Olivia Rodriguez song I hear Gold Rush I hear now that we don't talk

but Yeah in the music of it I just mean in the play with Get You Back Yeah yeah And the smash up bike references is a parallel to falling for you the 1975 song.

There's just this visceral connection between her and Maddie. Which was the song that Maddie acknowledged Taylor to in 2014 when she went to the 1975 concert for the first time. So there is some lore

fed into that song being stylized in the same way that the title of falling for you by the 1975. All we need is my bike and your... Whether I'm going to be your white four Gonna smash up your bike I haven't decided yet

Also the second handcuff reference In this song True Fresh out the slammer Go ahead, go ahead I'm not I'm gonna get you back Came up because we're talking about songs

That sound like 1975 songs on this record To be clear, I like I'm gonna get you back I would not cut I'm gonna get you back Okay What else are you cutting? Are you keeping Chloe or Sam or Sophia or Marcus?

said some things that I can't unabsorpe. You turned me into an idea of sorts. Not really. You're cutting all of them. Yes, Chloe Sam, Sophia and work as I've all been cut. I like the line you needed me, but you needed drugs more, but I'm with you. Yeah. No, there's, there's, that's what I mean.

It's like, there's a good, there's a good line. There's a good turn of phrase. There's a good snippet of a melody. or a production choice on most songs. This is Taylor Swift. She's not a fucking, like, this is a really, really, really good artist. I think that it would be good if there was an influence somewhere.

And maybe this could come from within. Maybe this could come from a producer who said, hey, there's a good idea there. Can we get them into one song? Can we come up? Do we need 31 to get all of these ideas and all of these moments? Yeah. Oh. And we'll talk about that on collaborators, but I don't think there's, I think there, after

Midnights, you and I said, I would love to hear her do an album with somebody new who can push her and put her to a place of safety, but discomfort creatively, because that's where the good stuff sometimes comes out. And that slow din is going to be a very loud roar if it's not already coming out of this. Now, whether she chooses to listen or not. it is her name to disgrace, as she wants you to know very badly. So she'll make those choices. I also push back a little bit on how loud that roar is, just because, yes, this album is getting some lukewarm at best reviews.

And most of those are centered on the fact that her producers are treading territory they have covered before and that she doesn't have a lot of new musical ideas. at play here. This is also the most streamed album in the history of time. Yes. And so if she wants to frame this as a smashing success,

there's going to be a way to do that. So we'll see. Just to close off this category, I don't need, again, there's something in each one of these songs that I'm either interested in or like, but I don't need Cassandra. I don't need Peter.

I don't need Robin. and I don't need the manuscript. No. That's what I'm saying. I do need the bolter. You do. Okay, I don't need the bolter either. I don't need the hostage situation.

That's the whole hostage situation for me. That's the hostage. You can turn it off. I mean, I guess not when you have a podcast. No. No. Look, I'm not going to come back to fresh out the slimmer. Another summer taking cover of burning thunder.

He don't understand me. Oh, yeah, that was, yeah, no, I'm not either. That was actually the song that I was the most disappointed in because as a no-body-no-crime, Stan, that was the song that based on title alone, I was the most excited about, and I can't say that I will be revisiting it. No, but look, the start of the verse with the Now Pretty Baby

sounds a lot like that's a real fucking legacy from Maroon. Now Pretty Baby, I'm running back home to you. It has some glitch in it too. We were supposed to be just friends. All she needed to tell us here is Maddie was the first call I made when I broke up with Joe. And that's really what this song is telling us. Right. By the way, speaking of Maroon, the Scarlet Maroon reference on Chloe or Sam or Sophia or Marcus.

Not enough to save it for me. Not enough to save any of Chloe or Sam or Sophia or Marcus. Shoot them all. Caught my eye and was interesting. That make your memory fade from this. Will you come back to Florida? Florida. Yeah.

No, I will. Florida's weird. What a weird song. It's super weird. And I think, like, the only way I contextualize it is it seems like she gave a comment somewhere that Florida's a place when you've destroyed your life

or where people commit crimes, they always bolt to Florida. And I think, like, I heart, she did these, this, this, this, this, like, I heart play and she did voice notes for it. And she said that she, she watches a lot of date line.

And everyone on Dateline after they commit crimes, they go to Florida to hideout and change their life. What is she doing watching Dateline? What? I mean, talk about relatable.

My friends all smell like weed or little babies, I think is a fun line. Killer line. And my friends all smell like weed or little baby. I think that's the actually, I'm keeping track throughout Pop Girl Spring

of the best the best my Saturn has returned and Maggie had the crown for a little while and I think right now all my friends smell like weed or little babies is the best like early 30s bar that we've gotten because that's great. Like that's just very...

Yeah. I sort of took this song as she really wanted to collaborate with Florence and she did and... Florence sounds great. I've got some regrets. I'll bury them in Florida. Tell me I'm justicable. Say it's unforgivable.

Yeah, this is that pivot point in the album where, again, if you sort of take her at her word for how she thinks about Florida, she sort of has screwed up her life. She's sort of on the run from this relationship with Joe, which it feels like... It feels like she ended. And now she's sort of going down

Florida where all the weirdos hang out and guess who she comes out with guilty as sin for a super weirdo. But let's back, I think I'm with you on those cuts. I also, can I just, can I, I hope that I can docks him without consequence or his objection on this podcast, but noted Floridian Kevin Clark, my former co-worker, dear friend and a Florida one-time resident himself explained to me that Destin is like in a sort of in a in a in a in a community of like kind of upper middle class Nashvilleites Destin would be somewhere between like the Hamptons and the Jersey Shore for East Coasters would be a very common vacation spot so I wonder if there's almost a little bit of like a romanticization of like which those are two completely different places the midpoint

as in like not completely different um the midpoint as in like maybe a little bit more high brow than parts of the Jersey shore and maybe a little bit more low than the Hamptons is I think what he meant by that. But I'm not, I am really not a Florida expert. But I just wondered if there was a little bit of this like romanticizing in a kind of dark way. Also of something that maybe would have been a very common like family vacation or a place to go or a place where you had a vacation home or a time share of people that she might have gone to high school with. or sort of were in her orbit and went on to like quote unquote normal lives and she's maybe thinking about that in a way. Strange dog. Like the exclamation points.

Yeah. I'm not sure that I come back to this one for the strangeness of it. I'm really glad how did it end is on this record. I wouldn't cut it. She used a lot of lines from this in the promo stuff. Soon they'll go home to their husbands. Smart because they know they can

trust him, then feverishly calling their cousins. Yeah. It feels like a Joe song, actually. And it also sounds a little bit like Little Freak, Harry-style song, and it sounds a little bit like Male Fantasy by Billy Eilish. But I, the lostness of that, I still don't know how did it end.

I'm happy as here. I just, I heard it once. It's pretty, I'm not sure I'm coming back to it. I like the chorus. Yeah. We hereby conduct this postmortem in this one. I also think the line about the hot house flower, he was a hot house flower to my outdoorsman.

Yeah. He was a hot house flower to my outdoorsman. Is, you know, that connects with the story that she has told and what would be heard from her about sort of what didn't work. So I agree with you that it's Joe. Well, there's two big songs on this record that we haven't talked about, and I have a sense that you're saving thank you, Amy, for another category.

But let's quickly circle off on track 5. And that's so long London. I saw in my mind, fairy lights through the mist. I kept calm and carried the way to the rift. The saddest song on the record for me. It's the coda to the heartbeat on, you're losing me.

Yeah. She says, I stopped CPR. I stopped CPR after all it's no use. The start sounds a little bit like the Future Island song seasons. but how much sad did you think I had in me is just devastating. And I'll find someone, I'm pissed off you, let me give you all that youth for free. I mean, part of me feels like the reason there aren't a ton of Joe songs,

if there are any others on this album, is because this is the only thing that needed to be said, right? There's this beautiful grace and honoring. We all came in thinking Joe was going to get destroyed. And she didn't say anything. that in hindsight is weird, is not weird. It was weird at the time that she wasn't saying anything. And she did, you know, as we talked about, she sort of called off the dogs at launch.

But part of the point of the rest of this record is that the dogs had already bitten and they'd bitten Maddie and that had hurt her deeply. I think the reason she didn't step in on Joe is because she just, there's this sort of honoring of the end of the relationship where she tried really hard to make it work and she just didn't feel like he was in.

and there just is nothing else to say, is there? I think that's right. And I think that there are a couple lines where, you know, there's three or four lines on this album that kind of encapsulate everything that she really needed to say. And, yeah, I mean, I'm pissed off you let me give you all that youth for free. I'm pissed off you, let me give you all that youth for free. the

a million times part of love of my life lost my life Lommel I still don't know what to do and then also the fact that I think in some ways with you're losing me

she'd already done it like what once you've said I wouldn't marry me either yeah it's hard to figure out what else you need to say yeah

I do think that that song has a little bit of a specter on this album where, you know, I found Lommel, loss of my life, very sad. And I thought the bridge really packs a punch with the, you know, you shit talked me under the table, talking rings and talking cradles. You shit talked me under the table talking rings and talking cradles. I definitely teared up the first time that I heard this song. I also teared up during So Long London.

I like So Long London better of the two of them. Me too. I'm not sure that she has a more compelling and more devastating breakup song about that relationship, then you're losing me. And I also wonder if, and, you know, I don't quite know how the timeline would fit with that. But I wonder if the fact that that was going to be really hard to top came, influenced, the percentage of this album that is about Joe relative to how much of it is about Maddie and blah blah blah blah blah and just sort of how much she had to say

about these various things. What I love about So Long London is that it's almost like you hear her being sort of forced to move and I love the play on So Long having a double meaning of she has to leave but also an acknowledgement of six years is a long time.

For, you know, for 34-year-old, that's a long time. And saying that, you know, she sees one of the really painful parts of that is the fact that so much of this young, ostensibly very joyful part of life is taken up by this thing that now has a lot of sadness intertwined with it. I just found that pretty moving. Yeah. I also think that, you know, the church bells sound to it is cool and works, and it warmed its way into me. So of those songs, you're losing me, I still think, has a special quality that, I don't know, maybe canonically to mean you're losing me was sort of the track five of this era. But I do really like So Long London. Side note, how did it end is the track five on the anthology on the second disc? And I think

those are really the only two songs that are very blatantly about Joe in the album. I think you're right. It's just it's a... You don't, so you think that Wommel is an amalgamation? Yeah, I do. I started, I started on, oh, this has to be about Joe. But by the end of it, I really thought it was because I think like talking rings, talking cradles, all never leave, never mind because I don't think, I think Maddie is the one who left in that relationship. She left the relationship with Joe. But you think, but I mean, talking rings and talking cradles feels like a Joe line, right? I think it was Maddie who dazzled her.

I think he brought her. I think the story of their relationship is they'd had this 10 years, love affair connection from afar, and finally they were able to engage in it. It's not that that doesn't make sense to me. I'm just trying to picture Maddie Healy talking about a cradle. I think there was this sort of magic spell that he cast and then ghosted her. And that was the hardest part. And coming out of a relationship in which she'd been with somebody who wouldn't marry her, it would make sense that she would sort of fall into, oh, this is somebody who's open to this. And he put the ring on my finger, and that's what made my heart explode. Like, you can see all of that and then bang, he's gone and you're the loss. And also the way

that it's situated in between I can fix him and I can do it with a broken heart, felt like she was telling us something there. That makes sense to me. It's really, it's just a cradle thing that that I get caught up on there. I mean, she makes the, I'm having his baby joke. So there definitely was some sort of conversation. No, I'm not. No, I'm not, but you should see your faces. She must have been so proud of that. She must have been just, like, so excited to put that one out into the universe. Just screw with people.

There's like, you know the guy, it's like H.T. Hayes or whatever. Who does the Taylor Swift reaction videos where it's him. He didn't used to be Swifty and he listens to the songs. And he's like, oh, shit. There's a very funny one of him hearing that and just pausing the song and being like, What the fuck? I hear what you're saying about loss of my life. I do the million times, about a million times,

sometimes it just feels like it's talking about a really long-term relationship. But again, I just think, I think it diminishes. That's one of the songs where I think it diminishes the experience of listening to it and the meaning of it to just sort of go to do the paternity. test and say it has to be one or it has to be the other. Not that there aren't songs where I think that works, but I think that's one where you are getting sort of an amalgamation. Fair enough.

All right. That's so long, London. Under Easter eggs, I think all that's left for us to really talk about here is thank you, Amy. The capital K-I-M being, by the way, this is what an Easter egg, this is what an Easter egg, this is what an Easter egg really is. I'm old enough to remember when a Taylor Swift Easter egg was like

capital letters and liner notes that named names. And we've gotten a little bit to this place where Easter eggs, quote, unquote, are like, she used a clock.

And then she used another clock. What does it mean? And it never, like, we never find out what it means. We still don't know why the phones were upside down. This is an Easter egg. I love this song.

I think it's hysterically funny that two-thirds of the way into like this knock-down, drag-out emotional, like, gut-wrenching collection of songs that, as we've talked about, it feels like she had to write and had to put out there to move past some really, really tough stuff in her life. She's just like, and by the way, fuck you, Kim Kardashian. Incredible move. Love it very much. I think this is the would have could or should have of this album.

It could not have gone on the main record without totally distracting from the overall theme. And there's a reason that she reserved it for the back stuff. I also think there are some songs on this album that, I mean, Cassandra, it sounds like, might be some more Kardashian-Genner stuff. Yeah, but the cellful of snakes, tombful snakes.

Yeah. Yeah, do you believe me now? All that. When it's burned the bitch, they're shrieking. When the truth comes out, it's quiet. She's been re-recording reputation. And I think as a part of that, she's been revisiting a lot of the feelings that came up

and that influenced reputation. And so it's not a surprise for me that there are some songs that, on that retrospective, have fallen out. out, and this is one of them. Which I do think makes this both an Easter egg in the title and, and in some ways, the next album appetizer. I mean, I know we're all, we've all got the clown noses on about Rep TV is coming.

Rep TV is coming. It is coming at some point. I mean, she's done the work and she is in the headspace. I do also think that there was that moment in the last time gets so fuzzy. This is like a year ago, not that long ago. somewhere within the timeframe when she would have been working on this album and recording this album, there was that little kerfuffle where, I mean, it wasn't even a kerfuffle, where Kim posted a story of North singing Taylor Swift.

Yes. And it was either just something that she did offhand or it was a, I recognize that Taylor Swift is on top of the world and I'm not with Kanye anymore and maybe there's an olive branch. I don't know. I'm of the mind that it could very easily have been that. And it also very easily could have been that, and I don't say this to, you know, she deserves, in my view, she deserves everything that she's getting. But I don't think that this whole saga is as big of a deal to Kim Kardashian, someone whose public image is entangled with messiness in a way that Taylor Swift's historically has not been.

I don't think it's as big of a deal to her. Yeah. So she might have just. and, like, posting through it. There wouldn't be this if there hadn't been you is a terrific line. It's great. It's awesome. There wouldn't be this if there hadn't been you.

I mean, it sort of gets to Peak Taylor for me, which is that putting an absolute ripper of a song about Kim Kay, killing Maddie Healy, wine moms, Hannah's, Sarah's, a bunch of the fan base and then writing a letter

on social media that says, the chapter's closed and board it up. There's nothing to avenge. No scores to settle once wounds have healed. But like, what?

These stories are yours now. Yeah, they're yours. They're ours. Nathan, they're ours. We can kill the wine moms. Drive by shooting and being like,

no punchbacks. What? I just ran over you with a semi-truck and then I, backed over you in the same truck, hogging the horn, and like waving out the window,

but now it's over? I love her so much. It's so Peek-Daler. You're so right. I mean, and so I changed your name and any real defining clues. That's what's Peak Taylor.

What? It's so meta. It's so self-aware. It's so funny. Who's afraid of little old me? I am. Everybody. Also,

apparently we should be afraid of Andrea, too. She's wishing death. She's wishing death. Andrea Swift out here wishing death upon you. Oh, I love it. It's just delicious. There's a real pettiness to this album, and you have to listen carefully to get it and to hear it as petty as opposed to, like, really true grievance.

And I'm not saying that that doesn't exist here as well, but there are some petty moments that I think if you have the sort of Swifty, Spidey sense to know when she's just like kind of whining, it's awesome. And I love it. So I changed your name and any real defining clues. No, you didn't. You never have.

You never have and you never will. Okay. So that was your peak Taylor. That was mine as well was the real defining clues. I just thought was so funny. You mentioned your Hiddleston Award. My Hedleston Award actually goes to Post Malone for hiding in the trees on the two biggest albums of the year.

Like what? He was on the Beyonce record, sort of. His voice almost blended into hers. At least he got a voice there. Here he's like, he's way in the background. He's way in the background. He gets his face stats taken off for the music video. Morphed into Maddie Healy almost.

Post Malone. Also in the J-Lo movie musical experience. What's going on? Post Malone has had a weird 2024. Like, the inbox for that man's representation is getting some funny requests these days. People must just like him. Definitely in every single album candidate all of a sudden. Dude, that would be fun.

Post Malone, did I say this last week when we were recording, that Post Malone, when he performed at the Super Bowl before the game, there's like crazy, you know, Taylor, when Taylor walked in, they shut the place down. It's like, everybody put your phones away, like, blah, blah, blah, blah. Post Malone for like two and a half hours was just standing around drinking Bud Light with the security cruise. Yeah. Underneath the stadium, just vibing. Just like, no worries.

Just drinking a beer and chatting with some security people. I drank a beer with him at a Cowboys Rams game a few years ago. Did you have a nice time? That sounds nice. I don't even like beer and I would drink a beer with Post Malone. He's same. He's fun as hell. Shout out Posty. Anything featuring more Post Malone, frankly. All right. Next album appetizer.

You have, so I had just the fact that she's in the Kim Yeh. Headspace being an Easter egg. and a rep sort of clue. You said so high school, can I just go on record saying that I think that so high school is more of a paper rings in that

it is interesting to hear her try on that style and I really enjoy it. And I wouldn't mind if that clued us to what the next album is going to be and content wise if you're saying that we're going to get more

Travis inspired. songs on the next album, I think that makes sense. I'm just not, I don't know what the next album appetizer is here if it's not for a re-recording because I come back and maybe this is where we have the collaborator conversation too. I come back to where we were at the end of Midnights, which by the way is an album that I think I enjoyed maybe a little bit more than you did and I think more than I really like Midnights. I think I'm relatively high on Midnights.

I think she just, she needs. some new energy. There need to be some new ideas in the room. And by the way, that does not mean that she can never work with Jack Antonoff or Aaron Dessner again. But I'm not, I don't really know who to give most important collaborator to besides like, I don't know, the producers of Dateline. Maybe because it's. Maddie Healy. Congratulations to the smallest man who ever lived. Patrick Berger, who is the producer who worked on dancing on my own with Robin, helped on I Look in People's Windows.

And I'm almost tempted to just say, like, that was a cool song. Good for you. Because I... More stalking. She tracks you on iPhone. Find my iPhone. She's in your windows. I like I look in people's windows. I like that song.

Look, you're going to get new energy, Nora. That's why I picked so high school. Because whatever you're... You are going to... to get upbeat Travis. We are done with the brooding British boys, and we are in the kick-ass Travis era. I just can't imagine the next one doesn't sort of envelop some of that energy

that appears to be a part of their relationship. And I agree, let's see her get into the studio with somebody else. Maybe Jack can be in the room. You just got to keep them off the synthesizers. On the drum machine. Do you have a prediction or a prescription for who that might be? I think she should, no. She should try everybody from Tiny who's like Bad Bunny's producer to, you know, I don't know,

get in the studio with Chapel Rhone. Just let's go try some things the way that we did with 1989, right? And see who else who is up and coming might be able to push her in a different direction. and might be reverent enough to build that relationship, but maybe young and dumb enough to not worry about giving her some criticism and some feedback and some editing. I think that's 100% right.

And I also, I agree that the direction to go in is like young and up and coming and new blood and fresh ideas. So I'm not saying this in the literal sense. But I found myself missing the, the constraints of a Max Martin song where there are rules that you have to follow.

I'm not saying I always want her to work in that mode and I think she's done a lot of creative thinking and work and growth as an artist since she sort of graduated from that school but it has been a while and I miss a little bit of the energy of No. The lines, the words actually have to, you got to fit. You got to fit the music here. You got to fit it even if it makes no damn sense. And we are going to have a structure that is followed.

And it's not going to get this. You really hated the lack of structure. I need, yes. She needs a rubric. I want like, we're doing poetry, but I want, I want like a couple, five paragraph essays. I'm not saying no more poetry. I'm just saying I want a couple, five-paragraph essays. So, was there a best lyric for you or did it all just run over for you? Oh, my God. There are so many best lyrics. There are like, like, so, okay.

It's hard to choose for me. It is, yes. I find it hard to choose to. This album is rooted in the lyrics. Yeah. The one that I mentioned before that I just am so unbelievably charmed by is, I hope it's shitty in the Black Dog. I get that that's a little bit of a funny choice. The pettiness.

It's everything. I love it. I just, I really love it. I mean, look, I think the bridge of But Daddy, I love him.

Yes. Once the, I'll tell you something right now, I'd rather burn my whole life down than listen to one more second of all this bitching and moaning. Yeah. I'm into it. I'm into that for sure.

and there's a lot of the, there's plenty of the more flowery quill pen that I like as well. But I just, I just think I hope it's shitty and the Black Dog is so good. Yeah, it's hard to argue with that. We talked about one line for me, which is,

but when I count the scars, there's a moment of truth that there wouldn't have been this if there hadn't been you from, thank you, Amy, is wonderful. I really think I'll tell you something about my good name. It's mine alone to disgrace from But Daddy I Love him is a very important part of this record and maybe one of the things she's most trying to communicate. And, you know, calling Maddie Healy's Dick Small

is really quite the lyric. You don't measure up to any measure of a, like, that's, that is, that's a bar. in any measure of a man. And that the second part of that song, where she starts saying, you know, is this all going to be declassified in 50 years?

I think that's very powerful lyrical writing as well. It's powerful in the writing in terms of the song structure, just to give my, you know, structure gold stars when it's there. I think that's very powerful, too. And that would be a candidate for me. well. I just, you know, me and the black dog.

Also, lights camera, bitch smile is, I mean, that's just, yeah. I'm, I'm into it. Nora, it's time. It's time. It's time. It's time. It's time. You go first.

No. You go first. No, you do it. Okay, I'll do it. I gave it a B. Did it? Look, I gave it a beat, which I think is probably, I don't actually remember, but I think that might be the lowest. That might be the lowest grade I've given her since we started doing this. Now, I don't think that this is the worst Taylor's. Like, things like debut become

hard to do the Apples and Orges thing because there's probably more songs from this that I would revisit. There's also 31 of them. And also. she's just in a much different place. I think I have to give some tough love and say that musically, I do not really hear anything new. That doesn't mean that I don't hear anything that I like, but I don't, like, I can't give you an example of something that I think is a new musical idea that's on tortured poets. That does not mean, and by the way, like, I do think that that gets overvalued sometimes.

in criticism. And I get why, right? Because it's like if we're not pushing art and culture and ideas forward, then sort of what's the point of anything? That said, it is a little bit divorced from the normal listening experience where if you like a song and then there's another song that you also like that sounds like that song, sometimes that's great. So I don't want to over index on criticism based on that. But I do think that it's relevant that I just, I can't really point out anything to you that I feel like is territory that we haven't covered before in a purely musical sense. Where I do feel like there are some special songs on here is in the perspective that she's embodying. Yeah. And that's why who's afraid of little old me to me is is the most

interesting and the best song that I heard from this collection. And then I do think that there are the handful that we talked about, including the Black Dog, including the smallest man who ever lived, that are great. Like, that are a great artist doing great. work. So my criticism is just that I think she could have done a little bit more self-editing. I don't think the fact that this is a double album that is

over two hours in length serves what's good about it. And I think that for the second album in a row, I'm still sort of left going, okay, where do we go from here? Like, what's next? Because that is one of things that has made Taylor Swift as special as she is is the impulse to find new modes and ideas. And I still think that we need to get to the next one. That said, we just got some new Taylor Swift songs and many of them I really, really enjoy. So this is to me by no means a failure. And in a lot

of ways, a really interesting and strong collection of work. But it's complicated in that way because I think I processed the music really differently from that. the story and from the lyrics and from kind of the perspective of this is something that we should receive as a thing that she needed to do to process some life that she lived. And thus lead B. This is a helpful companion

to everything that we've seen as like collective gawkers and sanctimonious soliloquers. Every night she went up. It's just fucking play about us. Every night she went up there and she said, you're making me feel like the man. When, in fact, there were a few men who were making her feel desperately depressed.

And she owns that in the intro letter that some of that was self-inflicted, right? But the critical fury over this record about her being at the peak of her stardom and writing this seems to imply that you bleed to. differently with a billion dollars and that your heart breaks more softly because you took a police escort with Maddie back to your apartment in Nashville or something. But what's most compelling

to me and reassuring, I think, about this album is that she's telling us that no, no insane amount of money and fame make these things easier. And that there's like this human connectedness about that. And at this time of division and an American election cycle ahead. That feels comforting to me. There's this shared experience of love and loneliness and loss. And as she's showing us right now,

picking yourself back up and finding happiness in sometimes the most unexpected places. And in her case, that's the guy she was looking at from the bleachers all those years ago, right? And so album of the year, this is not. Insight of the year

it still may be. And I gave it a B. It's interesting that what, because I agree with you that the sort of, you know, she still bleeds the same is an element of this that to me enhances the experience and doesn't diminish it. But I think that is, and this is one of my favorite things about this album, that goes down a lot more truthfully and a lot more easily in the additional. context that she gave us, which is an increased willingness to talk about the parts of her life that are

not the same as ours and that are not normal. And I think it makes saying when my heart breaks, it breaks the same as yours, more powerful and more interesting and feel more honest when she is also saying, I'll fucking sue you. And you should be afraid. of me and I'm going to go drive by on Kim Kay because I can and I want to and to acknowledge the ways in which her life is strange. So in just to land on one of the things that I think is the strongest about this collection of songs, the interplay between those two ideas. I don't think it's a coincidence that we're both bringing them up here at the end of that because that's something that I know but I will continue to think about a lot

as I spend some more time with these songs. And as you and I, even after two hours of podcasting, continue to talk about them because we will be back later this week with more on tortured poets, more on the reception, more on just absolutely everything that is still to come with the rollout

and the reaction to this album. Nathan, thank you for doing a two-hour-long podcast with me. Thank you, Nora. Thank you, as always, though especially today, to Kaya McMullen for her work on this episode. And we'll talk to you later this week.