Every Single Album - The ‘Tortured Poets Department’ Mailbag | Every Single Album: Taylor Swift

Episode Date: April 26, 2024

The Tortured Podcasters Department meets again, this time to open up the mailbag! Nora and Nathan answer a bunch of listener questions about whether their opinion has changed on any songs, what they want to hear next from Taylor, and much more (4:13). Then they answer rapid-fire questions, including one about how they think Taylor will incorporate this album into her tour (59:00). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producers: Isaiah Blakely and Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What is going on with Kate Middleton? Which cult is popping off right now? What the hell is a trad wife? And why are we so obsessed with them? I'm Jody Walker. And I'm Chelsea Stark Jones. And we're obsessed. Obsessed with all the pop culture happenings,

filling our group chats and 4U pages. And we want to talk about them with you. Our new show, We're Obsessed, is for all the things we're loving, buying, watching, listening to, and spiraling over right now. Follow the ringer dish feed on Spotify to listen to We're Obsessed every Friday. Hello and welcome back to every single album. Broadcasting, not live from the tortured podcasters department.

I'm Nora Prenziati and as always, I'm with Nathan Hubbard. Nathan, portrait poets less than a week old, but a weekend to process. How are you doing? I'm doing great. Are we wearing this thing out yet? I'm playing the heck out of it. I'm playing the heck out of it. I'm really, I'm playing the heck out of it too.

And we're going to talk a little bit on this mailbag episode about how the album has grown on us or evolved for us over the first few days within an additional few days to listen after we did our Monster Pod recap over the weekend, as well as how some individual songs have done with a little bit more time. However, first, I want to say two things. First of all, as I said, this is a mailbag episode. We're going to go through some of the questions that listeners submitted on various social media platforms. Thank you for those is the first thing that I want to say because they were fantastic questions. Smart. There were a lot of them. Yeah.

You guys are smart. And you have a lot of thoughts and a lot of questions. we're going to try to get to. We tried to pull out all the ones that were clearly, like, really recurring ones, as well as some that just I thought were really fun and was excited to speak to. And if it feels like we haven't gotten through everything, we'll just come back and do more at some point. So I hope everybody's questions get answered in this pod. But if they don't, never fear.

We'll be online. We'll respond to some in the comments. probably and then we also, we're not going to be scarce because though tortured poets seems to in some cases be an album that people have some mixed feelings on. They have a lot of feelings. One that people are interested in. Yeah. The second thing that I want to say is that I pulled out a list of all of these questions

and Nathan and I took a look at them and prepped them and got ready and everything. However, there is one that we received in a couple different forms from a couple different listeners that I held back from Nathan did not let him see because I wanted to surprise him with it on this pod, which is the listeners want to know, where's Beth? What happened to Bev? Where's Beth? I'm buried somewhere. I cannot tell you how hard I laughed when I opened my. Instagram and like clicked on a on a message that just said in all caps where's Bev it's true maybe I don't know Bev is Bev's been in the basement along with Taylor

Swift for the last six years and Bev is still there I don't know I look I miss Bev but not on this record Taylor in the music video where she's like strapped to the tortured device electrocution yes thing that's Bev that's Bev you know Bev will be back. As we know, there are some sounds that come in and out of Taylor's life and her recordings, and maybe Bev will be back. Bev will never die. All right, let's get into it. Our first question, it's a great one. It's from Bianca Christine. Also, third thing I need to say before we kick off this pod, I am going to do my very best with names, and I am very sorry in advance if I mispronounce as usual. This is not going to go well. Yeah, we'll see. I'm glad you're taking the first shot.

Bianca Christine, hopefully I'm so far so good with that. And this is a great question, which is, are there any songs you've changed your opinion on since your initial TTPD listen after listening more? Do you want to take this one first? No, I want you to because I realized interrears that I really let you... In arrears? Yeah. We're all getting literary. Taylor's speaking.

Everyone's pulling out their thesaurus. Nathan's dropping an inner rears on the fifth minute of a podcast. All right. What I will say is I kind of let you go on the cut songs piece. And that seemed to spark lots of reactions from people. So I want you to start and tell me of, are there any of the songs that were on your cut list that you've revisited? You've made it very clear over social media that you've, Love the bolter.

You're excited about the bolter. The bolter fucking slaps. The bolter goes. The bolter is like a tier. I just need to make this incredibly clear. I also recognized based on some of the questions that we got and some of the reactions to my cuts, which I'll talk more about it in a second. But for the most part, I do still feel are where I land in that category.

that I did not make it clear enough when we were talking about having some difficulty in the final stretch of the second half of the album or the second album, the anthology portion, that the bolter is absolutely an exception to things getting a little bit hard to get through towards the end. I love that song. I absolutely love that song. But I initially liked that song a lot. I will say that's one that has really grown from a place of, oh, hey, this is a good one. I enjoy it to clear top five on the album for me. I think it's just awesome. I think it has so much.

The bolter is a top five for me. All of torture poets. Nathan, go listen to the bolter like five times in a row. It's so good. It has energy. It's also, I appreciate that it's a little bit introspective. I enjoy Taylor's anger on tortured poets as a whole, but I think it comes off as this like, oh,

she's thinking about her own story and her own role to play in all of these situations, too. And I find that really interesting. It's also just sort of like a breath of fresh air. I think one thing we're going to end up talking about on this episode is some of the little hints at country influence on this album. And that's another one where I get that. It's just a great, like, sing-along vibe, but there's an interesting song in there. So I'm super big on the bolter.

In general, how this album has sat with me for a few extra days, which, I mean, it still hasn't exactly been a super long time, is that most of the things that I felt initially, I feel pretty much the same if in. in some cases more strongly in the same direction. For instance, one thing that I think has developed for me is that I can do it with a broken heart is like clear tier one. And that was a song that I liked on first listen. Thought was interesting. Thought was engaging. Thought was, again, a nice sonic reprieve from some of the more down tempo,

more plotting songs on the album and just really enjoyed listening to. But like now I'm just sort of doing cartwheels for that song. And to some degree, although I think this was in my original tier one, I'm just so into the Black Dog. I'm just so into who's afraid of little old me. And I'm just so into the smallest man who ever lived. Yeah. The ones that I cut, you know, the chorus of guilty as sin has grown on me a little bit.

The tortured poets department, the song has grown on me a little bit just in terms of how it sounds. I still find the lyrics kind of tough. Not this guy. I'm in the same place, basically. But the songs that I think are special, I think I'm really ready to bang the table for in a way that maybe I wasn't quite when we were sort of caught in the middle. of the, oh my God, we got a new podcast and there's 31 songs. So that's sort of how it's evolved for me. But I'm really, I'm really enjoying listening to it. Fortnite, you're still out on? Yes. I, I, I, I've really given it my all. I cannot get there. And Florida is going to, it's

interesting and you won't revisit. I like Florida. I've always liked Florida. I think, I think the fact that the first thing that I said about Florida is that it's weird, maybe did not make it clear that I like that song. It is weird. That's what I like about it. Yeah. Well, I have a little bit, I really felt very deeply in love with Thank You, Amy. And it's not just because it appears that Kim Kardashian posted a picture with Carly Claus today. Oh, Lord. I didn't even see that. What? It may be the internet being super weird, but I think that that happened today. No, I'm so Googling this. Keep talking.

So we, I mean, it's Drake versus the world. We have two like virtual disc track things happening in music right now. But I really just fell deeply in love with that song. I love sonically the way that the guitar sounds. I love the self-reflection. I do think that increasingly my favorite set of lyrics, and I think that this album is lyrically brilliant and probably the best work that she's done in that regard, I just think the way that she just acknowledges that so much of her, I don't know,

so much of that drive actually comes from the doubters and from feeling slighted and that there wouldn't be this, hadn't been you. And I just love that about thank you, Amy. Kim Kardashian may have been trying to send a message to Taylor Swift by posting a throwback photo with her and Swift's ex-best friend, Carly Claus, following her thank you, Amy, distract on Monday, April 22nd, Kim 43 took to her Instagram's right. Okay. That's real. That happened wild. I missed that. That's a hoot. So we're taking shots.

But is that a shot, though? Or are they just friends? I mean, there are no accidents. It's just kind of funny. Come on, come on. It's just kind of funny because it's the type of thing that you would almost expect Taylor to do in the sense that it's a little bit like, it's a little veiled and it's too much to be a coincidence,

but you don't really know it. And then actually what Taylor's doing is just like, oh, by the way, fuck you. I don't think you've changed and I hate you. Yeah. And your kid is not going to know about these songs except your kid is. going to know about these songs because everybody's going to tell. Can I ask you a question? This one is just,

this one is from question asker Nora Prentiotti. Do you think it's weird that she brought up North in the song? Yeah. There were a couple of people who I saw saying, is that over the line? Yeah. I think it's a fair question to ask because the irony being she didn't disguise the name and she didn't take out the details. And as she obviously understood that as she wrote it. But, um, it's a it's a reflection of just how strong the feelings are and um i i think it's yeah it's it's it's it's close it's close to a shot it really is so i'm not surprised that kim only i mean kim only posting a picture of her with carly claus is probably the softest response that you could get yeah i i have to say that i don't really think that it's over the line i mean i i i do not have kids so this is not

really a thing that I've ever had to think about is like, how do you, how do you move through the world with children or how do you protect them from the various cruelties and complications of the world while they're young? I have to say that I think that there's a, it's not like she disses North. I think insulting someone's child is, it would be an incredibly poor taste. I think that's totally fair. Yeah. I think acknowledging the fact that Kim Kardashian has children, like, it doesn't seem to me like that's obvious. of bounds, but I don't know. I wouldn't. Look, you're bringing kids into it a little bit, but I think you've probably changed my mind on that. But I did the gloves are off on this song.

You know, like, the mother of your children is whatever and. Yeah, there's a subtle like, hey, your mom's not good. By the way, when you are old enough to hear this, I just want you to know. And it's fine. She's got a lot of, I mean, Andrea wishes her dead. Like these, it's, he, saintly mother. Like there, there's a lot of vitriol here. I think you're right. It doesn't, does it cross a line? No, but it's up against it, I think, and it is a reflection of a deep set of feelings. And again, I think the thank you is in both, like at the same time, it is tongue in cheek, but I think also serious. Like, I think she probably, when she really gets through the therapeutic assessment of the anger and resentment, there has to be a position.

of gratitude because it is something that drove her to creative heights. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that's right. I appreciate you talking about the way the guitar sounds on that song because it took me a while to get past just the novelty of it and the sort of tabloid quality. Capital letters and yeah. Right.

And in a good way because I just found that really funny. and you know, we're going to talk about a lot of the challenges of having a two plus hour 31 song double album release. I will say that I think one of the joys of it is getting little nuggets like that buried in the second hour. Although I suppose that means that some people aren't hearing it, which is a bummer. But I just found that to be so much fun that it took me a while to go back and actually listen to that as a song. and I agree with you that it's a high point. And it's a fun one. The more that I sit with it, I'll just say,

I'm not sure there's a song that I've fallen more deeply in love with than thank you, Amy. I do think that every single one of these songs is lyrically interesting to me. I just, I'm happy that they are all here en masse because I think they are all part of the story. I have warmed a bit more to the Aaron produced songs, but I will come back to and they have moments I think in the aggregate I hear some things from folklore

and some things from Evermore in a lot of those songs on the whole but they're warm songs they're not bad right I think so much of the discussion of this album has been polarizing is it good, is it bad

you know is it her best is it her worst and that's not what this is I mean even the way that you and I graded this like if we were talking about debut, we would have given this,

if this was her first album, we would have given this completely different grades, right? You have to contextualize where we are at the creative moment and time and everything about it.

So I just, I sort of reject all the polarization of that to say, on a standalone basis, I really enjoy this album. And across the catalog of stuff, we have so many songs now, 250 plus from her,

that you've got to start focusing in on what what will I come back to what will get in integrated into the soundtrack of my life that is driven by this artist the parts of the soundtrack of my life that are driven by this artist what will definitely go on the go forward list right and to me there are absolutely a significant number of songs across these 31 that will get integrated into that and then there are some that I think you know gold rush I think that that Ivy, I think that mirror ball. I hear some parts of those songs across the second half of this album.

And I think for me personally, both because of the moment in which the music came out, but also I think just on a standalone basis for the songs themselves, those will get priority, right? If you went and saw her play a show, what would you absolutely want to hear her play if it was the last one you were going to see? And sort of force yourself into that prioritization exercise. So I think that feeds into our second question, which I think is from Neve. If I'm recalling a moment when you asked a question on a live chat we did however long ago. But if I'm messing that up, again, my apologies. But the question is really good.

And it has a few parts. So bear with me for a second. But the question is, do you think Taylor's lyrical radicalism is getting ignored here? A hyper focus on the not-that-new Sonics misses her deconstruction of her decade. of propriety, placing us in her delusional shoes and daring us to judge her. She's unpacking the consequence of her good girl complex in an internal sense and the external one put on her and how that limit on her humanity caused her temporary insanity. She's not being a people pleaser and there's true emotional evolution and complete re-questioning of her confidence about what love is. Anne Powers's

review for NPR really encapsulates what is daring in this album. If Taylor is a lyricist and she's telling female narratives this complexly, relinquishing likeability, then why do we focus on sonic evolution as the number one criteria? So if I can add one thing, I think there are two parts of this question that we should focus on. First of all, I want to hear a little bit more about you getting increasingly more into the lyrics and finding more and more there upon second and third and fourth and gazillionth listens. But second of all, I think a question that that is really interesting to me that came up a lot is this idea of why is Sonic Evolution such a priority, particularly in how critics receive an album, which I think is really interesting

and fair, right? Because I'm of the opinion that that's really important for a Taylor-specific reason and a non-Taylor-specific reason. The non-Taylor-specific reason is just that if popular culture and art and pop music is not advancing the ball in some way, to some extent that leaves me in a place of then what are we even doing here? You want to hear something you've never heard before. It's about creativity. It's about the limits of human expression. It's about imagination. It's about expanding the world of sounds and ideas that we have access to. And to me, the fact that artists who are mainstream, millions and millions of people are going to hear what they do. When people who are in that sort of position, and they're going to be in everybody's minivan in the suburbs

and on every radio station and they're going to be in commercials and they have that place in the zeitgeist, when people like that choose an accrues, and accomplish something new, I think that's the coolest thing in the world because it means that just huge swaths of people are going to experience something that they haven't experienced before.

Not everybody is going to dig to the bottom of the proverbial, you know, been at the record store to find experimental artwork, right? And experimental music. Just not everybody is going to do that. And so when people, who are in positions like Taylor Swift is in, choose to find a way to go down a path that no one's

gone down before, or at least not in the way that they're doing it. To me, that kind of has to be the priority. But at the same time, I do recognize the impulse to say, why is it bad to have three songs that sounds like a song that I really love? And I think that that is a question that hasn't really been adequately bridged between the way that a lot of the sort of industry and critical discourse takes shape and the way that a lot of fans do. The one thing that I will add to that is just that Taylor specifically is really good at this. Right now we're in a moment where we're criticizing her for not doing it.

But over the course of Taylor Swift's career, she's been one of the most imaginative and like reinventive pop stars ever. And to diminish her capacity to do that, I think diminishes her history as an artist. So that's my soliloquy on that. But I think it's a really interesting idea. And it's the space between those two value systems came up a lot in the question.

So I'm curious what you have to say about it. Well, first I'll just say on the lyrical front, I'm not sure if, I mean, I have fallen more in love with the lyrics. But the first thing that I said, like even before she dropped the second album, was I think it might be the most interesting lyrical product she's ever put out. And I think she shines in a whole bunch of ways here. I think it's cathartic poetry for her. And I think a lot of the new stuff on this album is the way that she's integrating phrases and lyrics into music.

It's always been a superpower of hers to murmur. merge melody and lyrics. And my experience of this album was she took some risks. The opening line of Fortnite, I think, is a risk. I think some of the things that people have in some, again, corners of the internet, criticized, I think was her trying to match certain lyrics and phrases with time signatures, with rhythms, with syncopation in the music. I think that is the place that she was most experimental here.

And I have a sense that that might be where the title of this album itself came from. She sort of approached it as a poet. She had to say some things. She had to get things on paper. And then it was matched with music. And in some cases, it works. And in some cases across 31 songs, inevitably it doesn't work. But that's the part that feels new and different to me.

On the music side, I want to distinguish between that sounds like a Taylor Swift song and that sounds like a Taylor Swift song that I've heard multiple times before, multiple other Taylor Swift songs or things that I, it doesn't sound new to me. To your point, Taylor Swift is excellent at making reinventing herself, but still having songs sound like a Taylor Swift song. I think that would not be a valid criticism that, hey, she's completely adopted something different. Yes, I think what's brilliant about her is she's transported herself across genres, and it sounded like a Taylor Swift song. I also think it is fair, and we documented this on the first podcast, and the more that I listen, the more I hear other little nuggets, that there are some melodies and some parts of songs and just some production, Nora, that just sounds like things.

that we've done before, that we've heard before. And that's okay. It is the inevitable outcropping of making as many songs as she is doing with the same team. It happens. And I think that's why the, if this, if these songs had been done with a different producer and that sort of complete, it's sort of a nonsensical question because both Jack and Aaron were writers in, in most of these cases, you pointed out there maybe four or five

songs that she wrote by herself, a few of which you really loved. But it's not really, it's sort of an unfair hypothetical. But I do think different producers could have generated different sounds that might have brought the outskirts on that sort of outer edge of the listener base here, who've been a little bit more critical, could have potentially brought them more into the fault. Because I think you can't deny that there are some sounds, particularly in the production side, that sound like some things we've heard before. And to a not unreasonable number of people, the criticism has just been, some of these songs sound the same. And you just have to take that as whether it's valid or not, it is a reaction that some people are having in the way that they're

hearing it. You know, for me, I think the nuance is in the lyrics. It's not just, it's not just Taylor, right? Like, in part, this is a reaction rooted in the fact that, and now I think people have similar critiques with some of the Aaron Dessner songs as well, but that's a, this line of criticism tends to have a lot to do with Jack Antonoff. And, you know, that's a reflection of how long he and Taylor have worked together and some of the sounds that they've used liberally in their work together. It's also a reflection of the fact that, I mean, Jack Antonoff is probably the most in-demand current pop producer.

Oh, yes, there's one producer the year multiple times, yes. Right, and you've got the Bleacher's record, and he's worked with Lana, and the 1975 and there's, you know, a dozen, a dozen somewhat recent albums that people know and are used to listening to that, and Jack has varied material across that work. But this is a really familiar set of sounds, not just because of Taylor Swift. So I think, but by the same token, it's a set of sounds that's proved immensely popular. Yeah, I love Modern Girl. Like the Breacher's record is awesome. People want to hear it.

And I think there's something interesting there. I do think that I think that it is a fair thing to ask of an artist to evolve sonically. I think that Taylor's career has proven the value of that time and time again. I also think that, you know, trust me, even if even if we're listening and going, well, yeah, sure. sure I can do it with a broken heart sounds a little bit like mastermind, but I'm so happy to have both of these great songs that have that, that infectious quality and also have different perspectives and different little nuances. I totally relate to that. I am someone who dozens and dozens of times in my life has made a playlist of a single song that I can't stop listening to and just

played it on repeat. So I get it. But I also do think that it's a fair, it's a fair thing to ask. because we don't want to live in the world where we're not asking for that. We just really don't. I just want her to create where she is. And on this album, I believe that she needed to get this out. I believe she was in an extraordinary amount of pain

and that to get through it, in between tour stops, she was going into the studio with Jack and with Aaron and getting this stuff out. And it's great. I'm thrilled that she did it. And I am interested to see how, this human being, both through the new life experiences that she is having and will continue

to have as she grows, which will change her perspective on the world and the way she prioritizes things and the filter through which she receives the world and creates art to reflect it. I'm interested to see that. I'm also interested to see who else she brings in to collaborate with because her history of collaborating with Imogen Heap, with St. Vincent, produced, you know, with Jack Antonoff, with Aaron Dessner, with others, produced songs that are on that soundtrack of my life. And on this album, she didn't do as much of that. And that is totally fine. I'm thrilled that she did it.

And it is also okay for some people's response to be, hey, some of this stuff sounds like things that I've heard before. And I'm going to prioritize some things that you've made before because those are more deeply ingrained in my heart or my head or whatever it is, right? Right. All right. We'll go to the next one from Chris. How much do you feel Taylor pays attention to the more critical reviews? And do you think this will influence her moving forward? Oh, Taylor's been retweetin. Have you seen the Twitter feed?

She's been retweetin. She's posting. Look, she's posting again. What we tried to say out of the gate, Nora, was everybody chill. Like, please everybody chill. it is inevitable. The only interesting angle at this point after the woman has broken the record for most albums of the year.

The only interesting angle on this record was going to be, have people lost interest? Is it too much? There's 31 songs. There's some people saying they don't like it. There was nothing interesting to read that was like Taylor's amazing and great.

So you knew in this first week that both for clicks, but also, you know, clearly that this album has not landed with everybody as the best thing they've ever heard. I think it's also not landed as the worst thing they've ever heard. But that the only thing that would... It has not landed with me as in my top half of Taylor Swift albums. That doesn't mean that it's not an album that I still really enjoy. My least favorite Taylor Swift song is a song that I mostly like.

And my daughters are telling me that this is in their top four. maybe top, yeah, top four right now. Like, they are loving this album. So there is this amazing sort of, uh, just varied response to this across the spectrum. But it was inevitable that we were going to have a week of this shit. And where people, again, we're going to write for clicks or write an honest reaction that wasn't amazing.

And then you know what's going to happen this weekend? There's going to be two and a half fucking million albums that were sold. And she's going to have broken the record all time for streaming, for this album. And none of that is really going to matter because the stakes, it turns out, her star is so high and her iconic status and the general acceptance of her as one of the all-time greats is secure such that the stakes for this album, it turned out, were pretty low. Taylor Swift is going to be as big as ever going forward. She's going to get on stage in Paris. Travis is going be in the crowd. There's probably more music. People are still going to follow her life.

They're going to follow her tour and they're going to listen to her music. So I think the only complaint that I have, and this now we're about the fan base, we'll come back to whether she's paying attention. Yes, she's paying attention. And I wish she wasn't. And I wish the fan base wasn't as much because methinks we doth protest too much about the, you know, about the paste review. Or like you're almost amplifying it to a point where it generates more attention than necessary. A week from now, this will be gone. There will still be discussion and controversy about reception to the album. But this is going to be the largest streaming album in the history of the planet.

Everything's okay in Taylor World. Yeah. I mean, look, Taylor cares about reviews. Taylor has always cared about reviews. First of all, it's human nature. Second of all, watch Miss Americana and tell me that Taylor Swift doesn't care. about reviews and awards. Like she absolutely does.

It, it, that's a completely human quality. By the way, like, so does Beyonce, right? Like, we're not getting. Very few people don't care, right? I think you're right to point out that the tenor of the discourse is sort of like at an 11 in a way that the. actual stakes of this album really were not. Because I by no means think that she failed, but I do think that she's a little bit too big to fail.

Though I guess if I'm saying that that's true, then this isn't really a test of that because I think she gave people a lot to like. I do think that there is more, there does seem to be more negativity in the water stream than there was around midnights. and I do think that she's paying attention to it. Yeah. I don't know how it will influence her, honestly, because I can see, I can see it in the way that she did with 1989, right? Becoming the type of feedback where she says, like, you know, if Taylor Swift comes out and makes a 52-minute album of, like,

tightly constructed dance songs. Right. She makes a dual-lepa record. Yeah. Well, we'll see. I mean, I wouldn't like call up Mark Ronson. I wouldn't hate to see what happened if she did. No, absolutely.

I hope it doesn't influence the art on a go-forward basis. But she is retweeting articles and she is putting in the handles of the authors, which is fine and her right to do and lots of artists do that. it does, it does seem to be an incentive to, right, on a go for a basis. And it is smart from a business perspective. And I think it seems to have been a choice, whether it was Trees' choice or Taylor's choice, that they were going to respond to some conversation about whether the reviews are mixed or not by reminding everybody that there are some really great reviews of this record out there. And on the one hand, you can be like, God, why does she need to do it?

why does she need to wait into the waters and say that? On the other hand, it's like, well, if she doesn't, who's going to? So it's not like she's got, you know, maybe Taylor Nation could do it, but it's not quite the same thing. Yeah. And so I think all's fair in love and poetry, isn't it? And so I don't, I wish that what I don't, I wish that it didn't affect her and that it didn't bother her. And that's coming from the guy whose joke about the hostage situation got taken out of context in the New York Times and it bothered the shit out of me that my daughters were forwarding it, me being like, hey, what did you say?

Right? And then I'm like, well, if it fucking bothers me, you know it's going to bother Taylor Swift. Okay. Well, we got a question about that. So why don't we just go to that? And the question was from Susie, who said that New York Times article today that quotes the pod, thoughts on oversaturation of Taylor. You go for, I mean, you start. I just went on a long rant. So yeah, no, I think, so it was funny. I didn't, I, um, somebody had to point this out to me. I didn't see it on my own.

Same. There was a piece in the, the times about, you know, if, if it was all sort of becoming too much. And neither of us was interviewed. It was all just quotes from the show. I think the piece was fair. Like, I think the premise was fair. I think that idea is absolutely a piece of the discourse right now. I, I, I don't really.

take issue with, like, the questions that they were sort of trying to explore. I know there's a real strain in the fandom that sees the Times as a publication that is pretty negative towards Taylor right now. I think they critically engage with her material and they think carefully about it. And I've never, I've, I've, in their reported pages. I could say something different about in the opinion pages, but in their reported pages, I've never, I haven't read anything where I've been like, that's, that's out of bounds. I think what I responded to and what I thought was interesting in the way that that, and you know, this is totally navel gazing, right? Because it's like, if it's your own words, you're always like, well, that's not what I meant. is just that there is this assumption of kind of, there's this assumption of bad discourse almost where like there was something where

they were they were quoting me talking about the songs that I really liked. And it was always like they were careful to say that this song was good or whatever. Or, you know, they made sure to be measured or whatever it was. And it just struck me as so interesting. And a little bit sad because I think it's a reflection of the place that the conversation is, which I think you could also tie in the posting of the reviews to this, where it's like everything has to be for or against. Right. And there's an assumed lack of space for anything in between. It's not just that it's hard to do kind of something that acknowledges that even.

even if you abs of fucking lootly love Taylor Swift and she's your favorite artist and you think that most of the product that she would put out on her worst day is interesting and worth listening to, that you can still talk about which songs you like better or worse. And there's no reflexive requirement to say that it's the best thing that she's ever done and no one will ever top it. the inverse to that is that any, like, if there's any criticism, then the praise that accompanies that must be fake. Because I just read that. And I was like, okay, that's, that's, this is an interesting article in some ways.

But like, trust me when I say that I was no more careful saying, I love the black dog, than I was saying, is tree pain my daddy? Like, I just think that's true. I just think that's. the truth. And we're never going to lie to you. Yeah. She might not retweet the pod. Honestly, and I want to be like thoughtful about how I say this because I'm fully aware that there are reviews of this album where the first, second and third comments under the review are you're going to start to cough in 13 days, which is psychotic.

that I think there is a larger contingent of people who discuss Taylor Swift reasonably and rationally that are represented in the public imagination right now. Yes, I would like to think that's true of our political discourse too. But yeah, I mean, first of all, And I'm glad that this podcast is a space for so many of them. Yes, because as reflected in the thoughtfulness of the questions that we got, I think you said it. The writer is a nice person. I think you should know for sure that somebody in a room somewhere at the New York Times was like, okay, what's interesting to write about? There's, is it oversaturated? Let's go write a piece on that. And that then the job of the writer is to go sort of, there's some confirmation bias in the way that that is constructed, right? It was not a independent research paper trying to measure whether there's, is or is not meaningful backlash or, you know, over saturation. It was an angle that would draw a click.

And so I'm with you that I didn't think there was much that was wrong about that. I think it's easy to take a bunch of, you know, 17 tweets, one of 17 tweets out of context and, you know, two hours of podcasting and harvest the stuff that works. But to your point, it is a, what is fun about this album and what is fun about Taylor Swift is there's a ton of nuance. and that the extremes don't and the polarization doesn't actually properly get you to an interesting analysis of tremendous art. I also think that oversaturation is an interesting way to put it in the sense that I think what, I think the sort of feeling that they were maybe trying to respond to is less so is this becoming

too much for the fans because that's not something I really recognize it all. No, bring me 31 songs every time you put stuff out. Great. And let me do a two hour podcast and another two hour podcast

and another two hour. Like, I am a person who can't get enough. I think a lot of fans can't get enough. I think we're, you know, happy to exist in this like, sort of overblown and ridiculous, but, uh,

ever unspooling world of content that she has created. I think the dynamic that they were maybe sensing but didn't quite know how to how to wrap their arms around is that there's an element of this album and how it's been received where it is for the fans in a way that's interesting in the context of where Taylor Swift is right now, right? because it's less that I think that she's oversaturated and more that she is so saturated. And now she's giving something that's not particularly easily digestible without a lot of effort. Right. Because Taylor Swift was plenty saturated when she was at the Super Bowl. And everyone thought that was great. I mean, not everyone.

But like that was widely met with this is fun. Both inside and outside the fan base, except for some like annoying football fans. but whatever. Mostly people found that pretty charming. The difference is that, you know, a word that I think has come up in conjunction of this album a few times is homework. It's 31 songs long. You're being told by me and, you know, Nathan and people like us that to really get it, you have to like dive in and spend all this time and do all of this research and... really commit in that way. And a lot of people just aren't going to do that. A lot of people, they want to hear a single that really grabs them and then they can feel

like they are involved in this album. I think it's fascinating that at this point in her career, she chose not to make that record and to make this one instead. But the dynamic of what does it mean for Taylor Swift to make an album for even if it's like the most massive closed circle of people that you could find in the sort of cultural universe, still a closed loop of people, that's a really interesting choice. But it's a choice that exists in tension with her current public profile. So I think that's sort of where they were trying to get.

I don't know. I do. I want to also say, and maybe this is my defensiveness of reporters as a reporter, when you put things out into the universe, and I think that's true of us doing a podcast, and I think that's true of someone selling a painting or making an album or writing a book, or whatever, you have to let the world take it as it takes it. You don't have to agree with it, but you just, you, I want to use this as a moment to like, everyone needs to relax and we will be relaxed.

There you go. All right. Another question from Steve. As someone who got into Taylor Swift during folklore evermore and liked but didn't love Midnights, I really loved this album. I enjoyed the pod, but want to explore the criticism that she needs a fresh new direction, because I thought tortured poets was an interesting mashup of some dream pop quill pen and a sprinkle of country. I personally don't want another straight pop album, but concede if she needs to be pushed somewhere new,

what does that look like if she stays on the evermore folklore tortured poets path? Or are you saying that the only way for her to grow is to go back to more upbeat and glitter pop songs? I just worry that some people are lumping a desire for more 1989 sounds with criticism of sameness and blandness in the album. have an answer to this. You want me to go or do you want to take it? Yeah. So I, I, I, I, this question grabbed me in part because I feel like it's something that I as like a huge proponent of bops should answer because it's important to be, be honest about your biases. There's a difference between there are ways in which I can be objective about Taylor Swift and

ways in which I can't, right? Like, I don't write straight reviews of her albums because it's just like, no shit, I love it. I love them all. They're my favorite thing in the world. So it's sort of, it's easier in this format for me to sort of like contextualize than just to be like, this is good, this is bad. That said, I am an unabashed lover of the bop. So that is, that's not a statement that reflects like the quality of the work that I think that she's doing. That's just my personal preference as a listener. So would I like an album of more upbeat and, you know, glitter gel pen pop songs? Love it.

Yes, I would. I absolutely would. But I also think that there are ways in which she could do something a little bit more evolutionary musically that don't fit that mold. I think something I keep hinting at this because there's a question about it and we'll get to it. But there's the twinges of country. on this album. Not that that's somewhere that she's never been, but they're really interesting. And that's a place that she could go. That's not necessarily upbeat Glitter Pop 1989,

blank space, shake it off vibes, but would be a certain kind of swerve at this point. Now, in my heart of hearts, I kind of would like to hear her make a dance record or something like, like something like that that has all of that structure that I was talking about on the last album. And that is a function both of wanting a certain amount of evolution, but also just my personal taste. So that's it. That's, that's all I wanted to say is that sometimes I'm just standing the bomb. Okay. Yeah, fine. I don't want her to go back to anything. I don't want her to, like, it's not for me to say. I want her to create from where she's, is. And I just think it would be interesting to blend in some other colors into the palette, to just

see what she does. I want her to do something that makes her a little bit uncomfortable. Yeah, that, that's what I've been saying is I just want her to be in a safe space, but push to something new and different. And she's been ambitious in moving that way through the course of her career. I think it didn't happen this time because she had to get it out. And she needed the safest harbor she could be in to do that. And that was Jack and Aaron. And that's not to say that they won't be in the room. Again, we said this last time.

Like, just keep Jack away from the synths. And let's see what else somebody else does. Not because I don't love the synths. I love the Sints. Maybe we should Freaky Friday, them. Yeah, fair enough. Because sometimes, I mean, look, like the black dog. you can hear that song as Jack doing Aaron and it fucking rules.

Yeah. I don't have a problem with it. Maybe we body switch them. I just think the injection of something new could be very interesting. Nathan is so not engaging with my body switch. My body switching is fine. I just don't actually think that solves the problem, right? I think these are the, is it a problem?

It's not a problem. I don't think that inspires the creativity forward. I'm not asking for something that we've had before or upbeat or downbeat. I want her to just create from where she is. I just would be interested in someone of her immense historical talent, working just for fun with some other immensely talented musical geniuses to see what comes out. I think it would be fascinating. You can always go back.

Like, Jack Antonov is a really talented producer who's done amazing work with Taylor Swift and who doesn't really deserve the like fire jack discourse that I feel like has come out of this, this request for some new, new sounds. They can work together again. Just call somebody else and book like four days of studio time with a few different producers each. It's fine. Like, you can go, you can always go back to Long Pond. you can always go back to electric lady. Like those places are always going to be there. Yeah.

I don't get the part of this conversation that's like, and she will put Jack Antonoff into a t-shirt cannon and fire him into the sun and no one will ever hear a synthesizer again. But part of the effect of all of the chatter about this record is that the next one, which presumably will have a little bit more travising, you know, be sort of, if she picks a muse and she's made plenty of art that isn't tied to her relationship at this point. But like,

it, the next one could be even bigger. Like, can I interest you in a, in a Travis Kelsey inspired album by Taylor? Can I interest you in like a Taylor motherhood album? Like, yes,

fuck yes. Like, these life experiences. Yeah. That she has in front of her. Like, they, again,

they alter your perspective. They alter your priorities, what you're inspired by. And like, for me, I just can't wait to see how they impact her creatively. I'm actually terrified that some of those things that like stability and happiness are going to slow her down. I wish that for her in her life.

I'm excited to see how those things influence her art in the same way. Those are new life experiences for her. I'm excited to see how new ideas and producers and people who bring a diversity of background in the way that they create might influence a general. talent to continue to create. Here's the thing. She knows this. She left Nathan. She left Chapman. She, you know, wrote an album all by herself. She found Max Martin. She found Jack. She found Aaron. She knows this. Like, this is, she has her finger on the pulse. And the fact that she is retweeting reviews means she's out there listening, taking stock. She sat in that Miss America on a doc and said, well, I just got to make a better record. I don't think she's

sitting there right now saying that with any regret whatsoever. She owes no apologies for this album. This album is terrific. And I'm excited to see her get pushed in different ways because she is that good and amazing things fall out of this woman in her creative mind when she gets challenged. I also think, so Alexandra asked a question that I'm just going to skip to because I think it's an interesting, jumping off point from this conversation. And the question was, how does Taylor move beyond the eras? What do you both foresee is the next era of growth for Taylor lyrically and sonically? And I have to be honest, I don't really know. I don't feel like I have a great handle on what I think is coming next. But what this question did make me think of and that I wanted to bring up is the fact that I think we would all be wise to remember just sort of like what the work that she has been.

doing lately has been, which has been the re-recordings projects, including the vault tracks and the arrows tour. It's been in a lot of ways inherently retrospective. And so I think for the, in, to the first point, it is in some ways natural that she's responding to going through that by, to some degree, which I think she's doing, going, oh, that was an interesting idea that I think differently about now. Let me get back into that and see if I can do something somatically different, maybe a little bit sonically different with ideas or stories that she's told before.

I mean, I think there's some really interesting conversation going down about reading the manuscript as a story about the making of the 10-minute version of all too well. and doing the short film and just sort of revisiting that experience in this authorial mode and thinking differently about it as a result of that and also processing a lot of that with enough time, with enough distance and also through the art. So I think first of all, when we talk so much, and people have this conversation around midnights too, about her sort of being in a familiar mode musically.

I don't think that I think it is, I think it sort of misses the forest for the trees to not point out the fact that she has been doing this inherently retrospective work. And then second of all, I just think that there's a world that we should be on alert for in which Midnights, besides being an awesome fucking album, ends up kind of fitting into the overall discography as something that she needed to make to have the Ares Tour. be what it was and to have songs that were going to make sense and bring the house down as closers to that tour. And then this album maybe ends up being the one that she needed to make to do some revolutionary stuff in the lyrics and in the storytelling and also to get through some shit. And then she's been working her absolute tocus off. Maybe she takes a break. She certainly deserves one. She's going to be. touring for the better part of the next year.

But perhaps after that, she takes a load off for a minute, goes on vacation for more than three days. And then maybe that's where the reset moment happens. And if it does happen, which there's absolutely nothing in this person's entire career that tells us to not expect it, then I think people look back on this and go, oh yeah, she really liked playing in that sandbox. and there were reasons to do it for the last few albums that had to do with being invested in those musical ideas, invested in those collaborators, enjoying those sonic cocoons as vehicles to do some of the rawest storytelling that she's ever done over the course of her career. But it just fits a little bit more seamlessly as part of an evolution.

once we know where it's going. And I just think that we should all, everybody just relax. Not everybody on this who asked questions. You're all great. But I just think that that's another reason to kind of take it down a notch. Yeah. Yeah. I synthesize it as her life is evolving.

It has already evolved in many ways since she recorded this record. And she is nothing, if not a chameleon in a dabalien. to the moment. And she is the best chief marketing officer on the planet. And she is currently taking the pulse of the fan base and of her own heart and her own mind. And she's going to make really interesting decisions going forward. I'm not really worried about it. All right. Let's do some of these. We're going to have to do some of these a little bit rapid fire. Because as in a surprise, absolutely no one. We are not exactly short-winded. Hannah asks, can we talk more about I'm going to get you back? What are the politics of Taylor forcing? Question mark, Olivia, to credit her on deja vu.

and then writing a song that uses almost the exact same title and same idea slash wordplay, though it is musically different. Whether I'm going to be your wife or going to smash up your bike, I haven't decided yet, but I'm going to get you. So what I would say is it's certainly a little audacious. I thought that the first time that I listened to it. I do just for the record, the ways in which credits are proactively applied or reapplied, you can't steal a theme, right?

You can, legally speaking, I'm not saying that anybody's done this in any direction, but legally speaking, you can quote unquote, steal or owe credit for musical elements of a composition. the idea of using get you back in a dual way and using that play on words, that's not really something that anyone is ever going to be able to say, like, you have to credit me for that. So I don't think that it exists on the same playing field as what happened with deja vu and cruel summer.

But, I mean, it popped into my mind the first time I heard the song. So it's just more something that exists kind of in your own imagination and how people process it. Yeah, I think the more interesting question is whether she's got to give a little bit of a royalty back to the 1975 because the beginning of that song is 100% lifted. And she's got the same producer for crying out loud. I mean, talk about the audacity if they asked. Yeah. Can you imagine? Yeah.

She doesn't have a monopoly on trying to win somebody back. But to your point, I think the Olivia stuff was, and Olivia publicly declared it, was it was either interpolated or inspired, very deeply inspired by her own stuff. All right, for Angie. I was surprised no one picked.

I can do it with a broken heart as another hit single. I cannot stop listening to it. And it seems I'm not alone. Wondering about your thoughts on that song, becoming a hit single. So as I said at the top, I'm Gaga for that song. I think it fucking rules. I'm interested in what world we are in,

if I can do it with a broken heart, was the single. Really? Yeah. I think it's so chaotic, which is what's awesome about it. It's sort of intentionally spiraling between front of house and back of house in her mind. And it is, I also think, intentionally a mashup of a bunch of stuff

from Midnights to just sort of replicate what was going on at the tour. It makes it sound like the Ares Tour, literally. Yeah, the whole thing sounds like the Ares Tour. Maybe. I still would have bet on Fortnite and Post Malone, but there's no doubt this is a super, super fun song. That's my question about

if that would have worked, just sort of the legibility of that as a single, potentially hitting people as, wait, what is she saying? So the album is about how she was miserable on the Arestra? Like, it would have been a little bit of a weird storytelling note to start with. Yeah.

Maybe. However, I do think we should have it. Maybe we'll have a new category, which is bop of the album. And I can do it with a broken heart is definitely the bop of the album. and if there's one song, I would say that I now feel that if there's one song that's going to penetrate widely,

I think it's this one, but you know my thoughts on Fortnite. I can do it with a broken heart is a good time. Maddie asks, with tracks like, but Daddy, I love him and I can fix him. Could you see Taylor exploring country again with her future projects?

Yes, this is the thing I was most frustrated that I didn't get out in the first podcast, which is that those bad, background vocals on But Daddy, I love him, are the first time we've really heard that full country harmony stuff in a long time, almost like speak nowish. And I loved it. I loved it too. Also, I love, you know, I love the little moments of the Western Saloon guitar on I can fix him on who's afraid a little old me. There's a little thread of, you know, country's so big right now. And obviously that's a part of her DNA. There's a thread of that running through this album that I think is your right to have singled out and right to pay attention to.

Jill asks, Nathan said he felt in a hostage situation by the end of his first listen. It was a joke. It was a joke. Do you think this is intentional because the post? public have made her feel hostage. She drowned us in material to make us feel the pain of always asking for more. I will answer this. No, I don't think that was her intention.

I think Taylor Swift wants to make albums that people enjoy listening to. And I think it's worked very well for her to put out lots of stuff. And it's also a strategy to counter the leaking. And it's a way to generate midnight and 2 a.m. talking. And yes, at 3 in the morning, it can feel a little bit like a hostage situation. wish she'd put it out at four in the afternoon, I would have felt a little bit better. But I wish everything was earlier in the day. And by the way, I complain about this just as much when the NFL makes me like watch games that go into overtime at midnight Eastern. Everything is

too late at night, but that's not Taylor Swift's Ball. Yeah. And I just want to want to say again, I want to hear everything she wants to put out. I may not find every song something that I have to add to the soundtrack, but I am so appreciative and grateful for the lyrical content of every 31 songs on this record. But I also, I want to be a little bit of hopefully the voice of reason here and just say like, it's not a requirement. It is not a requirement of being a good fan to love everything. You don't have to retrofit. How did my experience? How can I fit my experience into a way that mimics an intention of hers, right? Like, you heard the album, how you heard the album.

I don't think, I think that she wants to make records in a way that appeals to people. It's completely okay if some stuff works better than others. But I don't, it's just like there's such an undercurrent of fandom as activism. Right. that is a part. It's a part of the broken discourse as much as the reflexively negative people who are just like looking for something to hate. And I'm not, by the way, that's not what's happening in this question. And I think it's a good question because it's tapping into something that is real. But I just want to say that I don't think that it's a requirement to go,

oh bad reviews she's leaning into this is how we know reputation Taylor's version is coming like her mind she's doing this on purpose no that's how art works you put it out into the world and people take it however they take it

and that's what makes this interesting so no I don't think that she did that intentionally but it's a good question jocelyn how the fuck does this get integrated into the Ares store that's the most interesting question that's the thing that I've been waiting I mean, because when we talked about the tour to begin with before we saw the set list,

we were like, well, you know, she's going to have to cut a bunch of stuff. There are eight songs from folklore on this thing. It's a three-hour-plus show. I think she's crazy enough to add 15 more minutes of this stuff. But we also know that she changed the show when she put out Speak Now, right? We got enchanted and we got long live. And I guess we had enchanted before, but we got Long Live. And she swapped out the one, right?

So there's, she's not afraid to change this thing. I will be, I will be surprised if we don't get something from this album in the European parts of the tour, won't you? Or do you think she's just going to confine this to the secret songs? I would be surprised if tortured poets exists only in the confines of secret songs. I don't think that's out of the question, but I would be surprised. And I would also expect, but I would not expect it to, I would not expect it to get a full era. I think I would be surprised if there's like six songs from this that get added and it gets a whole section like that. I think it could get sort of like a speak now kind of little mini-sense.

shed. It would be weird to see her play. I can do it with a broken heart in front of a stadium. Dude, I want to see it so bad. I think that song is good enough that it would just work. But it is just like when you step back and think about what's happening and what she's singing about, it would be strange to hear people go, more, you know? I know.

One thing this album has made me think about is if Taylor, if Taylor has thought about the implications of chairman of the tortured Poets Department in the communist sense. Sometimes she's like, sincerely the chairman. And I'm like, yeah. All right. I expect that she's going to add some, but that means more length to the show. It would not surprise me if she trimmed a little of folklore and Evermore. It wouldn't surprise me to make space.

I think that makes sense. That's what I would do if I were her. I think that makes sense. And this is coming from someone who loves folklore and evermore deeply. Question from Jaina. Why has she pushed the excellent Pea-Paw-Dessner songs to bonus tracks again? I just laughed so hard at Peapaw-Dessner that I had to include this question. Do people call him that?

I don't know. She did. Peepaw-Dessner. I love it. I think that there is a different energy in the way that they record. They record in different places. Obviously, Jack and Aaron get along,

and they have collaborated a bit across this record and others, but it's unequivocally different sounds. And I think she tried to create a little bit of space for both the storytelling that I think on the first record when you dial out to 30,000 feet kind of flows through

a time period. I think it's in rough chronological order. And then the second record feels to be a little bit more of a vibe. Yeah, I think that's right. I think that's right. I think there's an interesting question that I've gotten from people about how to listen to the album and how to process it.

Do you think of it as one album or do you truly separate the two? As long as Black Dog is on the second one, I don't know how to think about it. I still will never understand why Black Dog is on the second, not the first. But so then implicit in that is that the second is like the bonus tracks, do you think? I do. I mean, look, and it would be so Taylor to have some absolute fucking bangers buried in the bonus tracks.

She's done this time and time again. Yeah, I think that's right. I do kind of. Doesn't mean that I always agree with her choices in the sense that like the bonus tracks are somehow less essential. Sometimes I think Taylor Swift bonus tracks are the most essential. Thank you, Amy, for example.

Right. We did get a question about that from Cecilia, which was, do you think the name Amy is a reference to the Britney Spears classic, if you see Game Me? Do you? Not really. I mean, I'm sure she's aware. Like, I'm sure she's tickled by that. And it's a cool

kind of, I mean, if you see Amy incredible song, incredible bit. So tying the legacies of those two songs in any way is something that I'm sure she's clocked and thinks is fun. I wonder if I wonder if there's an Amy. The cam of it all is so on the nose and so funny, at least to me, that I spent all of my first, however many listens, thinking about that. but at some point I did think to myself, there's obviously a Kim, but I wonder if there's also an Amy.

Like, I wonder if there was someone mean in high school or something. Is there a Chloe or a Sam or a Sophia or a Marcus or a Cassandra or a Peter or Robin? Well, I do think that there are, I do think there's a Cassandra. I think there's a Peter, there's a Robin. Those are historical and literary figures. Sophia and Chloe and Marcus and Sam and I don't know if, you know,

maybe, maybe Blake and Ryan have a lot of baby names picked out for the future. And we'll find that out someday. Those ones, that quartet, I'm not, I'm not too sure on. I think we'll make this the last question. We'll end here because I think it's a really, it's a good one. Because I think we look, a lot of the thrust of the conversation that we had on our last pod had to do with the fact that we think there's awesome stuff on tortured poets that does get to some degree bogged down by some songs that read a little bit more as rough drafts. But that begs the question if, which came

from Amy, AMY, if you were to make this one album, what 15 or 16 songs are on it? I don't want to answer this question because I like our little game. where we sort of put gun to head and say, what would you cut if you had to? I don't, I think unbundling, in particular the first record, undercuts it because I really do think it's telling a story. I think there's a spot for every song.

Even understanding a little bit more about what she meant by Florida, it's sitting there in the eighth spot, kind of in between, you know, she's fresh out of the slammer. What does she do? Well, her whole, like, story about Florida, is that's where you go to sort of reinvent yourself and get away and restart, right?

And then in comes guilty as sin and on and on. All these stages of grief, I think, are reflected in those 16 songs. So I'm not trying to camp out. I'll tell you this. You're so scared to compete right now. It wouldn't have the alchemy. But I'll do it with you. If you want to get to 15 songs, I'll do it.

I can do it. Go. My boy only breaks his favorite toys. Down bad. But Daddy, I love him. So long London. Florida. Who's afraid of little old me? I can fix him. I can do it with a broken heart. The smallest man who ever lived. I'm going to get you back. So high school. You just look at the black dog? I look in people's windows. Sorry. I abbreviated and I couldn't process my abbreviation. Okay. The Bolter. The black dog. Clara Bow. Okay. I don't take too many issues. I think that album fucking goes.

I don't take too many issues with it. You don't you don't take so high school? I did take so high school. Okay. I love the prophecy. I would not cut the prophecy. Oh, I shouldn't have cut the price. Yeah, well, that was only 15. Sorry, that was 15 and we got up to 16. Yes. I also include the prophecy.

Excuse me. Okay. The desperation. Yes. No, that was that was an omission on my part. That was one of my highlights of the album. Yeah, I don't, I don't disagree with you, but I have to tell you there is a broad swath of people who would say the albatross needs to be on there, who would argue, well, you liked I'm going to get you back. Yes, I did like, I'm going to eat back.

You cut, thank you, Amy? No. Okay, well, I just think, look. Okay, okay, okay. Oh, no. Okay, sorry. If I, then, then with apologies, I'm going to get you back. I would replace that.

That would thank you, Amy. Okay. I really thought I'd figure that out. And then clearly I, I, do you see what, this is what's interesting about this album? That is a 16 song album that I would have, I could have come from my chest from a little bit more off the top. And I think that's true. And it doesn't make me love Taylor. Swift any less that I can levy that very fair statement.

I am into the flow and the lyrical flow and the subtle storytelling of one through 16, even if the alchemy I don't ever need to come back to again on the first 16. I just, I don't think I would enjoy it as much as a standalone collection of songs as I do with the lyrical component of these would appear to me to be poems. Love it. All right. I think that's what we can end on. And maybe, and you know, more to come as this thing sort of unfolds

and the reaction to it has been interesting, to say the least. And we certainly had an embarrassment of riches in questions. So thank you to everyone who submitted them. and we will try our best to get to even more than we were able to, but I hope that we were able to answer a lot of the big ones today. Thank you. As always, to Nathan Hubbard for hopping on and talking this through with me. Thank you to all of you for listening.

And thank you especially to Isaiah Blakely for producing this episode. And as always, to Kaia McMullen for her additional production. We will talk to you soon.