Every Single Album - 'The Tortured Poets Department' Wrap-Up, and the Power of 'Espresso' | Every Single Album: Taylor Swift

Episode Date: May 2, 2024

Nora and Nathan give a few final thoughts about 'The Tortured Poets Department,' including what the charts can tell us about how people are listening to this album (1:00), and whether Taylor Swift albums can be properly reviewed anymore (34:25). Then, they talk about Sabrina Carpenter's song 'Espresso,' and how she's poised to be one of our next biggest pop stars (48:08). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What is going on with Kate Middleton? Which cult is popping off right now? What the hell is a trad wife? And why are we so obsessed with them? I'm Jody Walker. And I'm Chelsea Stark Jones. And we're obsessed. Obsessed with all the pop culture happenings,

filling our group chats and for you pages. And we want to talk about them with you. Our new show, We're Obsessed, is for all the things we're loving, buying, watching, listening to, and spiraling over right now. Follow the ringer-dish feed on Spotify to listen to We're Obsessed every Friday. Hello and welcome to every single album. I'm Nora Prenziotti.

And as always, I am joined by an in-repose Nathan Hubbard. Nathan, the listeners cannot see this, but you are like diagonally angled in your Zoom box with me on this recording. What is going on? I'm lounging. I'm in Miami. I hear there's an F1 race where a certain royal couple are coming. Oh, which someone might be attending. You are in Florida!

Exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point. Have you been getting use out of that song while on your trip? Well, I just got here, which is why I'm lounging right now doing this pod in a hotel room. But I will do my best to understand what in the F is happening in Florida and why there's so many references to it. It's not, Nathan. It's not Florida. It's. Florida.

Yeah, fair enough. You can't, you can't just, like, go around being like, Florida. That's over. Use the exclamation point. I know, but that's sort of how I feel about the references. Anyway, I, yes, there's a very interesting event happening here that, and we'll see if we, if we get a little royal couple sighting. Okay, that's exciting.

To be continued. I'm going to let everyone into a little secret, a little behind the curtain podcasting info, which is that we were going to do, originally we thought that we were going to do a couple tortured poets department related episodes of this podcast in the midst of a very busy pop girl spring. And we were going to come back this week. And one of the albums that we really want to talk about that we haven't gotten to is the Ariana Grande record, which was out before we started. So we saved it and we thought it would be fun. And then we just weren't ready to do that because it feels like after you'll talk too much.

the discourse is going and I would even say kind of thriving. There is of course some complication and, you know, in corners toxicity to the Taylor Swift's discourse, unfortunately, as there always is to some degree. But I'm just like, I continue to be really impressed and engaged with what this album has made people talk about in the sense of what it. You were worried about this. No, I was. I really was. I really was worried. This was like your biggest fear was the divisiveness and polarization that you felt like was building in the week leading up to release.

I know, which is why I should never be allowed to complain about anything. But I really did, yes. Look, I think we all know the experience of having a conversation with someone and feeling like what they want out of it is just, you know, for me or for another, Taylor Swift fan to kind of throw our hands up and be like, you know what? You're right. You got me. She's not good. She's bad at songs. And she's always been bad at songs. And I was pretending and you're right and you're smarter than everyone. Which is just like so dumb. And I try to really not engage in those conversations because there are a lot of people who are seeking that response. There are a lot of non-fans who are seeking that response from their closest known Taylor Swift fans.

at the moment. There are, but I would also like to say that I really don't feel like that has been the dominant conversation. Hard to when it blows every record out of the water. It's hard to do that when she blows every record out of the water. But also, I would say that even in the wake of a more negative critical response to this album, I just, I feel like, and I am so happy to say that I don't know. I think there's a critical mass of people who have really kept their heads on straight in both directions, of course, because, you know, I describe my sort of my, my angst from the perspective of someone who just doesn't want to sit there in a conversation where I feel like someone's end goal is for me to be like, yeah, Taylor Swift is bad. You're right because I'm just never going to do that.

And I think that's a fundamentally stupid thing to try to get out of a person. But of course, there's something that exists on the other side, too. Yeah. Whether it's online harassment or just, like, praise from the perspective of, I'm going to define myself as pro-Taylor Swift and then twist myself into whatever position I need to be in in order to support that. So I don't want to pretend like that doesn't exist too. What about your mom? We're seeing it in all corners, but there is a happy middle ground.

I mean, my mom is cruising around on a trip in France right now with a friend, like, driving in a car from town to town. And she texted me today and basically gave me the, like, I ain't reading all that. Sorry for you or happy for you, whatever. And just said, what are the songs I should listen to? And I said, okay, that's fair, because she was curious enough about the dialogue around the album

to say, I'd like to engage with stuff here, not sure I've got an appetite for 31 songs, even though it's like, mom, come on, you're in a road trip. Let's go. It's exactly what you should be doing is rolling through the record on a road trip. But in the absence of that, there's still interest. And so that to me says that there's been some balance and it's raised some interesting questions and that there is a middle ground for interesting dialogue around, you know, I think what you suggested that we moved to at some point, which is this notion of like, how do you critically review an end.

album that is as much about the narrative of Taylor Swift and that is as much about explaining herself and her story to this enormous fan base as it is intended to be a pioneering piece of music that rests in the lore of musicologists for years to come, right? Right. And so that's what we're going to talk about. And all of that is to say that our best laid plans to start moving on, we just threw out the window because we're not done talking about this album. It doesn't feel like you guys are done talking

about this album. It's been really fun to talk about. And, you know, it's only been a fortnight, as some might say. So we're going to get into a little bit more about the reception, what all the numbers tell us, and just some stuff that we felt like talking about

the better part of two weeks. But we're coming back to Eternal Sunshine. Yeah, we're going to get there. We're totally going to get there. We have so much stuff to get to. Also, at the end of this episode, Nathan is going to let me talk about Sabrina Carpenter because I've been texting him like four times a week

being like, if we don't talk about espresso, I'm going to pop off. So that's what's in store. And what I want to start with, in addition to just like, I am curious how tortured poets is still sitting with you after this amount of time, if anything's changed in terms of what songs you're playing, how much you're revisiting it. But I do want to get into all of the record-breaking numbers, right, and the sales. And if you've come to any conclusions about what those numbers really tell us,

because something that I'm curious about is how much do they reveal how successfully Taylor Swift has eventized this launch, right? and made it into something where everybody, even people who are pretty casual or maybe not even fans at all, wanted to engage with it on some level, wanted to like kind of know what was going on. And also how much your mom,

shout out to your mom. And also how much, shout out to your mom. How much it's also a reflection of how smart she's become and how smart her team has become about getting all the vinals, getting all the pre-saves, getting all the smart strategy, and also sort of like the juicing of everything that comes on the outside.

Because on the one hand, this feels, and this is like the biggest album that's ever albumed, right? And she set the Spotify record and there's 31 songs. So when people stream it through, that's just like a lot of plays. on the flip side,

I do like, I'm curious because I go into the Spotify data and I see a lot of the songs toward the back half of the anthology, especially, that, you know, they've got 20, 25, 30 million plays, which is huge, but is that Taylor Swift huge?

And is that a reflection of just the sheer, quantity? Or is that just a reflection of this thing's two weeks old and it's going to take some people time to get into it? Yeah, so there's a lot there to unpack. Yeah, I just asked you like 19 questions. You can answer any one of them that you feel like. That's fine. I mean, I think there's two things that I, that I gravitate to. The first is they have mastered the commercial component of a record release. They care about the numbers. They care about the records. they also care about creating good vinyl product that people are happy to have as opposed to just totally juicing the system.

But those two things, evermore in Taylor Swift's world, have overlap. And both things can be true, which is that I think the vinyl creates some really interesting product and is basically a piece of merchandise. But in having multiple versions, you've got what it would be most interesting to me, is to see, you know, in ticketing, like the average number of tickets bought per order is like 2.7. I want to know what the average number of albums bought per fan was in the first week. Because I think that number probably hovers

in the 2.7-ish range. And that's not to diminish the numbers at all. It really, more than anything, is a testament to how passionate the fan base is. But that's where those numbers are coming. from, and they're clearly, on a streaming perspective, is more interest than ever in a Taylor Swift release. And that's a function of her being at the peak of her musical history, having just one broken the record for most albums of the year of all time, and being at the peak of her

stardom with a relationship that is quite literally larger than a royal couple. I look at the Billboard Hot 100. That's the data to me that. is really interesting and how these songs, they've all charted in the Hot 100. No surprise, because a lot of people are listening. But I think it's what you were getting at, which is the order in which they chart actually tells us a little bit about

where fans and casual listeners are finding their favorites. Because Fortnite is number one, no surprise. But usually the early streaming numbers are heavily weighted towards the songs that are on the beginning part of the album, and usually the streams come if there isn't a single

that's totally popped out, they generally stream in order of the sequence of the album. But Fortnite's number one, but down bad's number two. Now I'm down bad crying at the chums out teenage petulence. And I can do it with a broken heart

is number three. I was hitting my marks because I can do it with a broken heart. And then you get into tortured poets, so long London, my boy only breaks his favorite toys, Daddy I Love him, Florida. So those songs in particular, Down Bad and I can do it with a broken heart, being higher than their sequence in the album, tells me that a lot of people are gravitating to those songs. And I think if you just... And those are the songs that are really resonating, yeah.

That those are the songs that are resonating. And I think it's not a surprise when you just look at what is popping up in your social feed of choice. Like you're seeing a lot of fans either lifting those clips or singing them in random rooms and those are the ones that seem to be pulling out. I am really surprised that the smallest man who ever lived

is 14th. And is behind songs like fresh out the slammer and the alchemy because I felt like that one is one of the best on the record period. And so it being a little bit further down was a bit strange to me in the same way that the black dog charting at 25th

while so high school and thank you amy are ahead of it from the um you know from the second side how you don't miss me in the shower and remember how my brain soaked body was a little bit surprising to me i shouldn't i shouldn't feel that way because we know that there's a lot of lore and taylor cinematic universe that's pumped into thank you amy and so high school school. But I just, I feel so strongly about the black dog that I got to, yeah, I got to understand. I still don't get why some of the songs are charting higher than that one. But it just means that I think people aren't getting all the way through it. I wonder, right. And, and to that point, I wonder if, you know, there's, there's so much enthusiasm right at the release of the record that

that's when the chart stuff goes wild. So obviously things will, I'll calm down a little bit naturally over time. I do wonder if there will be, if there's just going to be sort of like a delayed sinking in of this album. Not everybody's been able to listen to it all the way through. Right. Your mom. She's in France. She doesn't have time for this. She's got a vibe out in her car. Every time you say your mom, I think you're being like using the pejorative third grade version of it. No, it's your mom. It's your mom like positive as opposed to your mom derogatory. I'm processing it. It's just such an interesting dichotomy as people sort of go through that process, I think, because, yeah, like, I'm so crazy about the Black Dog.

And the black dog, I think, is in the certain, like, online corners of the fan base. It's really hitting and people are talking about it. And it feels like it's becoming part of, like, Taylor Swift culture and Taylor Swift lore. At the same time, and obviously, they haven't been out in the universe for quite the same amount of time. but like a little more than half the amount of people or half the amount of plays have gone to that song as something like Good Luck Babe by Chappelle Rhone

which is a great song and a song that people have really grabbed but like those are artists. Chaborone is the shit. We should talk about her along with... Totally. Sabrina. We absolutely have to do that.

And I'm huge on her right now and listening a bunch and clearly other people are too. But those are. artists who are not in the same solar system right now because nobody's in the Taylor Swift solar system. And so it's interesting to me to sort of think about like, what does that mean when there's this album that is the biggest thing ever? And also there are some songs that people are, people who are in it are so, so huge on that might take some time to sink in for people.

And it's just, it's sort of interesting to think about that just because the conversation about the album seems so, so saturated. But the nether reaches of the album itself, I don't know if they have reached that saturation point yet, which is sort of a crazy thing to say, because all we're seeing is biggest album ever, biggest album ever. But I still think if you actually really look at the data

and separate out, try to separate out how much is, right. There is some nuance to that there. I just think it's interesting. Yeah. To me, it's a reflection that for some people, there are some skips on this album. Robin is dead last on the, of all the songs, on the Billboard Hot 100.

It's still on the Hot 100, so lots of people are listening. But in the aggregate, you know, I think the gap between Robin at 55 and I can do it with a broken heart at three is pretty significant. And like you say, there are some people who are still easing

into it who haven't had time to fully digest it and listen to it. There's some people who I think have determined that there are songs on here that resonate with them and some that don't. And then you've got a very passionate group of fans who are just going to go all the way through and listen to it front to back and front to back and front to back and sleep to it and, you know, all of the things that the most passionate corners of fan bases do to juice the stream numbers in the first few weeks. I honestly think that's kind of healthy. Like in some ways, like because I think there's such a conversation about is this album just for fans? And I think there's, there's a lot of validity to that idea. And it's something that is interesting to engage with in

terms of like, how is Taylor Swift going to move through the world for the tour and whatever upcoming album releases we get and everything like that. But the fact that there's, the fact that we're seeing that there's some stuff where it's just like, oh, people like that song. So they're listening to it a bunch and they're kind of ignoring the stuff that they're less into. That's healthy. That means that there are entry points to this album that don't require knowing what April 29th signifies and stuff like that. And that's actually good. Like, that's something that the Taylor Swift ecosystem, I think, should aspire to. But let me pause you there. Let me pause you there. In this moment and time, two weeks-ish after the release,

do you think that Taylor put this out for the fans, in quotes? Was that a... No. Neither do I. No, I don't think... I think there's a conversation about whether or not that was the outcome. But I don't believe that that was the intent. I think, first of all, I think it's really slippery to start talking about pop music as being for some people and not for other people. That's not why this is cool. I also think that Taylor Swift, someone who very clearly cares about things like critical.

critical reaction, chart position, and performance is not interested in cordoning off audiences in creating a closed circle. I do think, and this goes back to the Grammy's conversation that we had about there being different audiences with different goals and desires that puts her in a little bit of conflict in terms of who to support, I do think that there are some things that, you know, there are some examples of that being a zero-sum choice. I think there's also evidence that not everything has to be like that. But there are some areas where, you know, you add to the lore and you add to the lore and you add to the lore and some people love it and are rewarded by that and eat it up. And some people are put off by it.

And I think she's in a tricky position right now where it's hard to, it's hard to do both. She is being forced into some of those choices. But I don't think that she is intentionally doing that whatsoever, and I think she'd prefer not to. Yeah, and I also feel like the Easter egging thing, and you've alluded to this before, has gotten so out of control. Like, we as a fan base are looking so aggressively for it that I think probably there's 10% of what's been found is real and 90% of it is imagined. Right. And part of that is being used as justification for, well, this is for the fans, because if you really really parse this apart here, you know, if you put these letters in a circle that spells Kim at the end.

And so it's just like, come on, man. Like, we're seeing some ghosts as a fan base on occasion here. And I do think, yeah, I do think in a lot of ways, it is a reaction to the larger share of criticism that this album has received than earlier records. I think that is just a natural psychological defensiveness that comes up from fans who are dedicated to her and who probably struggle with the concept that the next thing she does doesn't have to be the best thing that she's ever done. That said, there are legitimate parts of the fan base who genuinely believe this is the best thing that she's ever done. As I sit here two weeks in, I've heard a lot of, hey, my opinion on this record has changed. Totally cool. Like, that's a...

how I felt about reputation. I did not get reputation. I kind of got the back half, but I didn't get all of reputation for, it took some time for me to really warm up to it. And now there's songs on there. I'm going to say it took two weeks. Yeah. You know, getaway car, I loved out of the gate. But once I really started to understand the story of reputation and the start to finish and how that I just warmed to it in a whole bunch of ways. And it did take repeated listens. And it took repeated listens from start to finish. I haven't had that experience with this album.

I don't know about you. I mean, I feel the same today, for the most part, about all 31 songs. And I have listened to the shit out of this album. Yeah. And I have not had my mind changed from my initial reaction to a lot of these songs. And again, it has happened to me with Taylor albums before.

But like I get slightly more excited about, thank you, Amy, than the first time that I heard it musically. I love the prophecy and I continue to love the prophecy. But the manuscript has not crept up on me. I kind of like little parts of I look in people's windows, but it's not, you know, I still can do without some parts of Chloe and Sam and Sophia and Marcus. You know, those things like, I still think down bad is fucking awesome. So I don't know that a whole lot has changed for me in two weeks.

Has it for you? Yeah, so I actually, I am always really interested in how albums sort of like evolve over time and how you hear them once they've sort of seeped into your brain a little bit more. I have to say, just as context, I haven't personally had that experience that much. I would say the song that I've had that with most clearly is champagne problems. But I do think that that's hard, which is a small. But I do think that that's hard, which was a song that I was not impressed by on first listen and have grown to really appreciate. I will say that I think a fair amount of that is just like the experience of it, experiencing it live, experiencing it with friends.

It's like it's a little bit, that song has grown on me musically, but it's grown on me more in an extra musical sense. reputation is an album I liked immediately. I generally, like, what happens to me is I'll listen to an album and I'll have my first reaction to it. And then I'll listen to it more and more, you know, for the few weeks or however long, that first period of time when something new that you like is sort of like all that you want to listen to. That's the window in which stuff that ultimately I'm not going to come back to that much. will like seep in. And that's, that's where I am right now is I'm starting to, you know, I was in Boston over the weekend and I needed to, I needed to go to the store because I was going to a baby shower and there was a diaper raffle and I had to buy diapers.

Diper raffle. Diper raffle. What is a diaper raffle? Like everyone brings diapers and you enter the raffle by bestowing your diapers and then there's a raffle. And I don't, like, I've never bought diapers. What? So I'm like, I'm, I'm, why would I've bought diapers? I don't have, I don't have younger siblings. I don't have, I don't have children. So I'm going to the store and I'm like, what?

Can that be a drinking game too? A diaper raffle? Like, I mean, I. Like a bunch of frat guys sitting. Never mind. I had a mimosa. But so I'm like, what is the, like, what do we buy? Are we, are we buying pamper's?

Like, what are the good diapers these days? So I'm like, texting people and being like, what diapers do I'm, bye-bye. And I'm walking down the street and I'm listening to Tortured Poets. And it was the first time that I'd like really listened to a bunch of the album on like a nice sunny day just walking around. And I'm going crazy with it. And songs that, not songs where I was like, I don't like this, but songs where I was sort of like, oh yeah, there's something to love, but I don't know that it totally got there. Like guilty is sin. I'm walking down the street and I'm like, oh man, this chorus absolutely rips. And stuff like that.

does really, like, you get in the zone with it. And I'm in the zone with a lot of this album. I can't, like, that doesn't necessarily mean that in two years, if you ask me to make a playlist of my top 50 Taylor Swift songs, that my initial reflections wouldn't be sort of, my initial reactions wouldn't be reflected into that list, is I guess what I'm saying. But I do think that there's this window

like after you get an album where you just sort of like lean into it and the whole thing starts to sound good. And I am in that zone a little bit. Well, look, I still, the first half of reputation is not my favorite still to this day and that's okay. It doesn't mean, I don't like it.

I like it. It grew on me a bit more. The second half I adore. I don't feel that I'm having the same response to this. There's stuff on here that I absolutely adore. I just, I mean, some of it is we listen to so much darn Taylor Swift at this point that maybe my, my tastes are a little bit more embedded. But I'm keeping an open mind to moving on one way or the other on some of these songs. But like, I love Fortnite. My head bops when it comes on. I'm not ever

going to be like, please turn off down bad. Like, I heard down bad in the gym the other day, which was fantastic. It's a great gym song. And it felt right, you know? So whatever. I, I, I, Was anyone crying? I was crying. I was working too hard. I would have been crying. Yeah, but it's all good. But it's also not surprised that I think the songs that are at the top of the list are some of the bops.

And there aren't as many on this record. And so I suspect that's why I can do it with the broken heart has moved up so much. And I still, that is becoming to me the most interesting song on the album. because she's got to play it live, I think. And I just can't wait to see there's attention in that song, as there is in this entire album between her and the fan base. And I just wonder if people, like, real ones will get the irony and they'll get the nuance and that screaming more is both a fun thing to do

and also something that potentially she was articulating as insensitive to the, human feelings that she was having. It's so wild. I'm sorry for interrupting you when you're making a very astute point. But just the fact that she's making everybody express their complicity in that. And that's way too dramatic, right? But the fact that you have to participate in it,

and that's a byproduct of the song being a boss, I think it's really smart. How is it going to go over live? It's going to be a fascinating moment where she's, I mean, she's being very tongue in cheek about all this, and she's kind of holding up a mirror. And I don't know, there's going to be some level of, like, awkwardness. I mean, when my son heard this, he said, oh, I feel badly.

Like, I feel badly that I was having so much fun at the show. And that's the most innocent and honest reaction to that song. And now we're going to, she's going to get up in Paris. and that whole crowd at some point is going to go more. And the question is, are they all going to get it and take it to heart and be in on the joke, as it were? Is it a joke now? Or are there people who are unironically going to scream more

not really realizing the point, which is that she's kind of telling us that in some moments we ask too much of her. She can do it, but we're asking a lot of her in unfair ways. one of the this is a possible read of some of that song and also just generally

like the kindest thing that you can do I think for an artist that anyone loves particularly someone who's like in the pop star ecosystem is recognized that they have a job to do

and that everything that performance is the job right and that there's always there's always a little bit of a membrane between what's true and what you're getting and that that's not that's that is sort of their vocational responsibility and that there's nothing wrong with that from either side and there's actually something healthy about that and and I think really if you if you dig into the kinds of fan reactions that she seems

to bristle at the most on this album. It's the losing sight of that. So I would think and hope that everyone can kind of internalize that it's an heiress tour show. If she wants to play the song, she wants you to sing along and like, we're all going to be okay. But it is really, I mean, it's cheeky. It's a cheeky little move, Taylor. And I'm curious to see what happens.

She has to play that. I assume she's going to play, but Daddy, I love it. of him? That's the cheekiest. I mean, is she going to say, fuck him to the wine moms? So good. All the wine moms are still holding now. But fuck her. It's over. Yeah. I think she's got to play. I think she's going to play. So both those songs. To say, fuck it to the wine moms in Paris, France is, uh, is a dangerous game. Yeah. Everybody's a wine mom. Everybody's a wine mom here. I think that will be, uh, the, the reason

that I probably tune into the live stream for the parrishos is just to see what that dynamic is like. How is she going to perform them? Does she visibly express the anger that's in the sentiment? You know, does she sort of clowny, laugh it off? Does she play the Harley Quinn

crazy character on torture, or on I can do it with a broken heart? Yeah, I mean, let's see how she rolls it. But we know now she's definitely doing it. So it's just a question of, where does it fall in the show? How many songs does she play? Does she cut anything from other sets?

Do her legs fall off? And she has to do the back half of the airs tour in a wheelchair. One home is that? Being carried around by a Tesla robot or something. Well, I really hope not. I guess we will have to see. I do want to bring up one.

more sort of data point in all of how this reaction is playing out, which is that I sent you this New Yorker article that I think came out today that I thought was interesting. And it was called Why Normal Music Reviews no longer make sense for Taylor Swift. And it was about a lot of this stuff that we've kind of been talking about, about how different segments of the population that's at least somewhat interested in her have responded and, you know, it kind of compared her to, it did the MCU comparison where some people hear all of the different connections as enriching the experience. And then some people really don't and want more legibility. And the idea is kind of that that bifurcation of how people process it makes reviewing her really challenging.

I think there's obviously some veracity to that. I have to say that my response was a little bit like, though again, of course there have been parts of it that have been exhausting and annoying. I've found a lot of the overall discourse ultimately like pretty interesting and much more like fruitful than maybe I thought it was going to be. So I don't know. I'm still in favor of normal music reviews for Taylor Swift. But what did you think of this? I'm with you. I think people's initial reaction to music is extremely important and it's valid.

Yeah. And yes, it is good to revisit down the road. But hearing a song for the first time is extraordinary important. It's why we pick, it's extraordinarily important. It's why we pick singles in the music business. It's like what is going to be the best on-ramp to bring a listener into this music? And so saying, well, you know, you can't, you shouldn't be reviewing, music until you've listened to it a hundred times. I think it's nonsense. I think it is interesting to hear how those opinions change in the event that they do or do not. I also think there are parts of the fan base to your earlier words who are bending over backwards to try to absolve this piece of art from any criticism. And that's where I get checked out. And there's a little part of this argument that's like, well, you can't, is it fair to criticize this if you don't really understand all the Easter eggs and the narrative inside? Well, yes, it is. As a standalone piece of art, it's fully okay to criticize it in that way. It's also a deeper, richer text when you understand

the narrative of Taylor Swift and you get inside the universe in the same way that like, you know, not knowing a Avengers movie, like coming to an Avengers movie cold, is sometimes harder, but you still can review that movie as a stand-alone thing. So the other thing that annoying me about that is that she referenced Google search date on Maddie Healy in the 1975, which I tweeted about the other morning. And of course, I'm sure I am the only person in the planet who had that idea, as you know, Nora, my narcissistic tendencies and messianic complex would... Don't come for Nathan's threads.

If you come for Nathan's threads, he will come for you. you. Damn it. But it is interesting. People are Googles or Gmail? No, I just think I wanted to know because I started, I looked at streaming data

to see if the Charlie Puth reference in tortured poets actually caused people to go back where she says, you know, we wonder why he's not a bigger artist or should be a bigger artist. I actually went to see, did that actually make people go back

and be like, huh, let me listen to some Charlie Puth. And the answer is, it did not at all. In fact, week over week. You know what? That's a shame. Streaming of Charlie Puth was down. Now, Google search query data of Charlie Puth. Yes, slightly.

Slightly. Week over week. Google search query data was up, but it was only a fraction of how many Google searches for Maddie Healy came through. So it was a small blip. And I just really, really what I was interested in is the Taylor's Swift effect. We have Google search query data for the 1975 and Maddie Healy goes way up on April 19th. Charlie Puth has a little bit of a blip, but it doesn't really translate into streams.

Sabrina Carpenter just this week took over the global Spotify number one with espresso and she is her own artist. She is an incredible artist and we will talk about Sabrina. She is probably the leading now next generation pop star that is a full generation. behind Taylor. And part of the intelligence of the way that she's brought herself to market is she's found her way into the slipstream of Taylor Swift and the tailwinds of Taylor Swift. And those are helping to open her to new audiences. And so I wanted to sort of see how that effect came through. And I think it just, it's those tertiary effects of this cultural phenomenon that is Taylor Swift in the same way.

that most of the chatter that came out of Coachella, although Sabrina was the most talked about, Taylor and Travis being there, overshadowed a hell of a lot of interesting musical stuff that went on there. Not intentionally, it just was. It's just what people were buzzing about.

I promise you more people are going to tune in to F1 stuff this weekend in Miami if they stumble out of the jet and show up at the paddock. So... In Florida. Florida.

But I think, That's how I come out on it. I just don't like something that tries to inoculate a piece of art from criticism. It is fair to say that there is richer meaning and depth to the piece of art if you educate yourself. That's for sure. Right. I mean, also, if this is, again, this is my, this is my, like, reporter side showing.

Often, people who write articles don't write the headlines and there's nothing wrong with that. And it's an interesting question. And it sort of clarifies a lot. lot of what's going on in the discourse, I agree that normal music reviews absolutely continue to make sense for Taylor Swift and think that actually in a funny way, even though they've been, with some exceptions, like, I think that the paste thing was crappy. But in general, I think even some of the more negative ones have showed what I think is the meaningful bar, which is just like,

real engagement, real engagement with the work. And you don't have to be. have to know every single Easter egg and piece of lore, though I think obviously with Taylor Swift, there's a requirement of an awareness that that stuff exists. Yeah. But in a weird way,

this is me, this is me saying, like, I actually think the discourse is in, I'm more encouraged by the discourse than I thought I would be at this point. Yeah. Can we,

go ahead. I just want to say, the part that annoyed me about the New York piece is, the suggestion, Your thread. They cribbed your thread. I'm sorry. No. No. That it's not...

That finding fault with sounds and melodies that we've heard before is not a valid criticism because what if it's on purpose? And that's part of the Easter egging, like over Easter egging that I think feels a little bit way too far away from the mean. for me to absorb. Like I just, it is okay saying, hey, this stuff sounds, some of this stuff, sounds like things we've heard before. It would be really interesting to hear Taylor work with some new people. Pearl Jam just worked with Andrew Watt, and they put out a kick-ass record that sounds fresh, that focused the band, that sounds like a Pearl Jam album, but explores some

new territory, something completely far away from Taylor Swift. It was working with Andrew Watt, that crystallized that. I'd be interested in hearing what Taylor Swift produces with someone else. That is okay to say and still be happy that she put this out and still think this is a really interesting piece of work that tells us new things about her that expresses new forms of art. So I just, the nuance and the subtlety of it is the stuff that matters. And some of the clickbait, you know, is this, it's not fair to criticize because it's either too soon or because it, actually was intentional feels, I don't know, just... Well, the piece, and I think this is like, this is like a really valid thing to dig into,

and I think it's interesting, and I enjoyed reading the piece and I'm glad they did it. But the part where I went, no, this isn't like, I don't, I don't want to live in this world, and I don't think that this is the case, is there's a section where I'll read from it. It went, the tepid music reviews often missed the fact that music is something that Swift stopped selling long ago. Instead, she has spent two decades building the foundation of the fan universe filled with complex and sequins narratives that have been contextualized through multiple perspectives across a lot of blockbuster installments. She is not creating standalone albums, but rather a musical franchise, which yes, exactly what you're saying. Taylor Swift is selling

music. I'm not conceding that Taylor Swift no longer sells music. I'm just like not willing to to. Well, she's a poet with AI generated shit in the background. No, it matters. Right. That's her brilliance is combining melody and lyrics. It's why what she did with Aaron Desner on folklore mattered so much because he took his hard drive and she was turning around songs. You know, she turned around, this is me trying in a heartbeat like overnight, over like a ton of wine. That's the brilliance of Taylor Swift. And it's also, it, I think it doesn't reflect the fact that there is great music on the tortured poets department. I think it's bogged down by some stuff

that feels a little bit unfinished and a little bit just sketched out. But even, you know, it's funny, like I can do it with a broken heart, which is in some ways one of the most derivative songs in the album, is also doing something interesting with how it's leaning into kind of that dance march sound. I think some of the more country inflected

songs like those moments in But Daddy I Love Him are really musically exciting and really interesting and juicy and you can you can dig in there. I think like there are examples like, you know, I was talking about how guilty is sin has kind of has grabbed me in parts of it and I don't get the verses the way that I get the chorus. But that last, the final chorus on that song where she does something when she says, What If He's Written Mine in that part? What if he's written mine on my upper? Where just the way that her voice sounds is really, it's cool and it's something that I haven't heard before. And so, first of all, I'm just not really willing to concede that the tortured Poets Department is not music. Yeah. And that that's not the point here. No, I love the, I love when she sings I hated here in that song.

I'm there most love to you because I hated me. Some of the verses, not totally for me, but I love the melody there. And I love, I just, the whole thing. I sing that in my own head, you know, when I got here to Florida. Yes! Yes! I knew I would get you to do it. Yes.

The best. I'm going to do an annoying little disclaimer, which is, and I think, I really think, and I feel so good about it. this, that what has happened in the couple of weeks following the release of this album is, and that's not to say that there aren't counter examples to this, but has encouraged me about the state of the conversation. So I think we are all, and particularly the brilliant listeners of this podcast, mature enough to handle this.

But I want to acknowledge that whenever I bring up a piece of reporting and writing about Taylor Swift on anything, I live in some degree of fear that. if there's anything critical or anything people disagree with, that they will jump on it, don't do that. This is a thoughtful piece of writing and it's interesting. And we're talking about it here because it engaged us and we were curious about the ideas in it. So, like, I'm thrilled to say that I don't think I need to say that. Yeah.

God forbid people react that way to some of the 900 hours of podcasting we've done on Taylor Swift. So, like, it's cool. I appreciate the discourse. Yeah. Can we talk about Sabrina for a second here? Just because you brought up something when you were talking about some of the data that is like what I want to talk to you about.

Besides the fact that I am playing espresso 800 times a day. I wake up, I listen to espresso. I go brush my teeth. I listen to espresso. I get my coffee. I listen to espresso. Like that song is just so much fun.

It is the perfect like it's almost summer. Okay, tell me. there's an even better one ahead. What? That's all I'm telling you. Can I tell you what I think? I think Sabrina Carpenter is going to be the biggest pop star short of Taylor Swift before the end of the summer.

Okay. So this is, this is like fascinating and crazy. And also like you've just blown my mind. I simply, I can't conceive of a song that I want to listen to more than espresso right now, but I'm very curious. The thing that I'm interested in is, you know, you talked about how she has, deftly sort of caught the tailwinds of all of the enthusiasm in the spotlight around Taylor. Sorry, I'm mixing metaphors, but whatever, we carry on.

And I was thinking about that a little bit. And I just wound up feeling so impressed by how she's sort of gone through this stretch of her career. Because, you know, I'm certainly not going to sit here and tell you that I think that being an open around the air as tour is like not a good thing. Of course, that's an amazing platform for anyone. And particularly when, you know, she's friends with Taylor. She goes around with Taylor. They go on double dates. They do whatever. But it's also, I think that's an underratedly hard thing to figure out how to make hay of because you're on, like, first of all, you're on this big, massive stage. It's still light outside. You only get a limited amount of time. It's not, it's not yours.

You live in the shadow of this other person. And, you know, if we think about, if we think about some of the other Taylor Swift openers, like she's had, you know, Camilla Cove and Charlie X, X, X, and people that I absolutely love. But there's not a lot of proof of concept that that is a runway

that automatically propels someone into, like, upper echelon startup. Yeah, I mean, it doesn't deliver a number one hit. Sean Mendez, Ed Sheeran, she's done pretty good with her hand selections, but Gracie Abrams didn't rocket up the charts to number one playing the third slot before Heim at the L.A. shows. Right.

And I like that Gracie record a lot. Me too. I just don't think the trampoline effect of that is like really a given. It's not, but I think she played it, did Sabrina, incredibly intelligently, which she internalized, and this is the common thread

between her and Taylor, albeit, you know, a generation apart, she has her finger on the pulse of the online fan base. She is awesome online. She is hilarious online. But she figured out, intuitively,

that people were tuning in every night on live stream to see Taylor's surprise song. and she took the end of her song nonsense and made it a reason to tune in on the live stream early every single night to see what on earth is she going to say? Because Sabrina has found a lane in pop stardom that has some edge to it.

She is willing to say some things that make your eyebrows go up with no fear and she serves it. I think there is a niche in the pop-girly universe for someone who is playfully horny? Right. It's not, I don't know that edgy feels like the right word, right? Like just like someone who's going to say some borderline filthy stuff with just like a megawatt smile and not blink an eyelash is just like the person who used to hold.

that crown, by the way, was Carly Ray Jepson. And Sabrina has really come for it in a way that I'm It helps being... It helps being... Four foot 11. Right. And I also think the bangs. I think the bangs are a piece of this. Well, she is...

You're not allowed to talk about hair, but I'm just going to say that the fact that she has cornered the market on curtain bangs is like... It's impressive. Well, and she's in a new relationship. that is sort of Travis and Taylor Light and that, you know, she's, she's, I think it's all. Demi, Demi Travis and Taylor. Yeah. I mean, she just, she's, she's doing it right. And her, her team is smart. She is smart. And there is a lot of really interesting stuff ahead that I'm being very ambiguous about. But I really believe that this woman is on a rocket ship and is very close to

reaching orbit. Wild for Barry Keogan to be somewhat affiliated with like two of the defining songs of the last 12 months in espresso and murder on the dance floor. Well, he's playing it right too, isn't he? I'm just saying. I just think that that's like an interesting little little wrinkle for our friend Barry. And I'm happy for. Not as interesting as post Malone being in.

the Taylor and Beyonce albums. And now... And the Jennifer Lopez movie. Yeah. And Morgan Wallen, the song that he played at stagecoach this last weekend. There's just a lot going on. A lot of posty. A lot of posty.

I love espresso. I love... Sabrina has like a... Sabrina has a rich catalog. I don't mean to just focus on one song. And nonsense is great and Feather is great. And she's got tunes. And I really think that she has depth

and I'm excited to hear what's next. I just like, I really think the espresso is a perfect song. I think I'm working late because I'm a singer is like the funniest thing that I've heard all year. And I'm going to play it all summer.

And I just wanted to acknowledge that because it's important to me. Yeah. Which she's an example of an artist who has been present for a while and has not reached this level. It just speaks to how hard it is to break out and how many things, you need a confluence of cultural moments and your own music

to sort of come together to make something really big happen. And I do think we're at those stages where, you know, when the rocket's on the launch pad and all the smoke is coming out, you start to see the fire, you can just, you know this thing is about to shoot. Well, and it's funny because I didn't, I didn't really, you know, I didn't care for, for, for, for, skin, which was the driver's license, like, quote unquote response song. Very much. And it's funny because, like, in a sense, she's been part of a huge cultural moment before. But obviously, like, Olivia defined that.

And to me, the way that that she responded to that musically was not what she's capable of. But it's just, like, first of all, kind of wild that the other. driver's license girl is like potentially on her way to being one of the biggest, if not the biggest non-Taylor Swift pop star we have working right now. Like that's not something that I would have predicted when that song came out. And yeah, it's just, it's sort of like two different examples of how you can seize a moment. Yeah.

When you put her alongside Chaparone and Olivia, there is this different, and you don't like the word edge, so we'll continue through the course of these discussions to try to find the right word. It's not that I don't like the word edge. It's just that I wouldn't describe Sabrina Carpenter as edgy. I just think she... No, no, no.

No, I don't think she's edgy, but I think she has a sharpness to the blade when she chooses to use it, which you defined as, like, hilariously horny. Yeah. But I think chapels in a different place. I just think these young women are distinguishing them,

from some of the artists who are 10 years older than them in very interesting ways in the way that they communicate in the subject matter, in the way that they're doing their shows now, in the way that they engage online. And it's really worth watching the three of them in particular and potentially a few others who are developing now. I'm very curious to hear more. Okay, Nathan, we've chitchotted for close to an hour. but I do want to talk to you about one more thing before we go, which is, did you see Taylor and Travis at the Mahomes Gala in Las Vegas? He was, I thought, it looked like he was eating a turkey leg

when he was kissing her shoulder. It looked like the Thanksgiving guys who get the turduckin on the field, who just grab the whole leg and just mow it. I was like, man, is she going to. lose an arm like that surfer or something. Here it goes Taylor. It was great. Look, what I like about this is he's got her doing normal stuff. Like, they seem to be committed to, yet they're very clear about their fame and what comes with it. But it just seems like they're not going to let that get in the way of them, A, using their fame for good, but be just like going out and doing things.

Yeah. And she auctioned off tickets and that's great. I thought it was very funny. when he did the Viva Las Vegas redux up at the, at the podium. And, you know, who knows if this is true or not, but there was someone who's a lip reader who was saying that they thought that what she was saying was like, oh, this again, I can't, I can't, I can't, which is exactly how I think most girlfriends would respond in that situation. So I was just, I was tickled by the whole thing.

Yeah. I wish people would stop pulling her aside in those private rooms and taking pictures and posting it to the internet. I know that like you want to be cool for your kids or you want to be cool for your story. But it's like part of it is man, just be cool. Like when you're in the room with them, can we can we just let them have a little bit of a normal time and appreciate that if you don't do that, that they can't actually come out and they got to go hide. Like just everybody, be cool. It's also, I mean, it's great that she's like, or I don't know if it's great. She should do whatever she wants. But like she's clearly saying yes to a lot of the photos, which I'm sure makes

people's days all the time. But it's like you can also take it and not post it. You know? It doesn't have to go up on the interwebs. It just sort of encourages people to not allow them to have any sense of normalcy. And when she's out and walking

through the crowd on the way to the chief's suite, people hollering at her and asking, that seems like fair game to me. Or when she's on a red carpet for the movie, that seems like fair game to me. But also, I mean, that's not, like, when she's walking into the chief suite, no one's talking to her. Like, no one's...

Yeah, but like... I've seen her move through those stadiums and she is... Yeah, but people are calling to her and she's waving and it's that kind of thing. And she's on display in that situation. In a private room where the objective is to raise a bunch of money for charity and you're only there because of your wallet. Just be honest. That's why you're being invited. It's because they expect you to donate money to the cause.

That's why you're there. Like, just be cool. Yeah. I mean, look, I would give her credit for like probably on some level kind of understanding that. Yes, I'm sure there's a lot of people who want to go to a Patrick Mahomes charity gala. There's a lot more people who want to go and spend money at a Patrick Mahomes charity gala that Taylor Swift is also going to attend. So I'm sure the foundation did a little bit better that evening because of her presence. And that's great.

Everyone should just be cool as a general rule of principle. The only, we all struggle with it, except for your mom who is just, like, vibing in France. Let's hope. Let's hope I gave it the right. And I think that's the message of this podcast. This has been every single album. I'm Nora Brinziotti from Florida.

He's Nathan Hubbard. We will talk to you again soon. We'll be back next week. We're going to talk about the Duelipa album. Dua. It's coming out. And speaking of vacation. my hero. We're going to talk about that next because we're recording this on a Wednesday and that album's

dropping Friday. So look forward to that. Thank you as always to the fabulous Kai McMullen for producing this episode and we'll talk to you soon.