Every Single Album - What's Going on With Tate McRae and Lady Gaga?

Episode Date: October 9, 2024

Nora and Nathan cover some of the news floating around the pop music world this week, including Tate McRae's most recent single release and what she needs to do to break through in popularity (1:00), Lady Gaga's 'Harlequin' album that she released in companion with 'Joker: Folie à Deux' and what might be coming on her next album (26:32), and Charli XCX's upcoming 'Brat' remix album (46:34). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Everybody lies. But most of us don't like to talk about the lies we tell. Until now. From Spotify and the Ringer podcast network, I'm Brian Phillips. In my new podcast, Truthless, I'm talking to people about their best tales of deception. From changing an entire family history to building an award-winning Hollywood career on a lie. You can listen to Truthless on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts on October 15th. To every single album, I'm Nora Pinciotti, and as always, I am joined by Nathan Hubbard.

Nathan, you just told me that you're feeling a little grumpy today. So I would ask you how you're feeling, but I actually know. So instead I'll just say that I'm so glad that you're here. I'm so glad to see you. I'm hoping that we can have a nice conversation on this podcast and that it'll cheer you up. Are you going to make me wear the glitter freckles? I can't. This is actually a good thing for us to address the top of this podcast.

I cannot discuss the glitter freckles. You can. It took everything in me not to screenshot our text thread about it. I cannot discuss the glitter freckles in a public platform. It's just, it's not going to go well for me, but I wish everyone the best. And I'm very happy for the Etsy woman or whoever it was that sells the glitter freckles whose store is apparently really blown up, and that's great. I mean, yeah, to each their own.

I'm out on the glitter freckles. Yeah, me too. But, you know, she gave us something to talk about. And that's actually helpful because this is a week where it's not that much going on, trying to figure out what to pot about. And therefore, I think we're going to use this episode for a couple of things. but one in particular that is just something that I've been wanting to talk to you about for a while because it's just, you know, these are the things that I think about when I wake up in the middle of the night if I can't sleep

or if I'm just going about my day and they pop into the back of my mind. And that's like what's Tate McCray's deal? Oh, okay. That's what we're doing? That's our first topic. And I've, this has been on my mind a little bit over the last few weeks because Tate McCray, uh, Canadian, pop girl dancer extraordinaire released

It's Okay I'm Okay which is her first single since her album Think Later came out in 2023 And I'm in the first place It's okay

I'm okay And it's had this rollout that I just like can't figure out I like the song I think the song

is cool it's like Do you? Yeah no I I don't know nice? No, no, no. I really do like it. I don't know that I think it's like great, but... I mean, it's like 30 in the Billboard Hot 100. It has not cracked the top 20. Yeah. So I think the world feels the same way. But she has been highly present, both in social media and also sort of out and about in the paparazzi world of events and

she's highly visible, Nora. It feels like she's definitely ramping up for an album release. And so she, it hasn't been, like, that's what it feels like to me too, but the song has not been promoted as the lead single of an album yet, at least to my knowledge. That's fairly common.

Yeah. They're warming the gong up here. They're getting ready. They're trying to see, you know, this is all part of a calculated marketing plan by RCA records to get people talking about her and then bang new album coming.

But do you think that it is a, like to get people talking about her or is it to see if people will start talking about her? I think it is to get. I mean, I think this is a single that is out. Presumably there is an album behind it. I'd be stunned if there wasn't just because she has been so ever present. And this is how you start to market pop albums now, is you are not direct. in many cases about when the album is coming,

you put out a song, you see whether it's taking or not, then you might put out a second and a third. I mean, we saw this with Duo, right? Where there was a new song, and it didn't go so great, so they tried another one, and they tried another one around the release of the album.

So this is all... And then they kind of used all the bullets in the chamber. Yeah, it is a very, very difficult time to get attention. And the thing about pop music, is it is expensive for labels and artists to break through, right? Because you're still dealing with some traditional radio, which costs money, and you've got to get all of the right things. You're trying to get the interviews on television.

You're trying to get – all that stuff costs money. It's different than the release in many cases of a country record or – although country still uses radio. But pop is just a big bet. Costs a lot to make, costs a lot to market. And Tate is managed by the same folks who manage Harry Stiles, so they know what they're doing. She is in very good hands with Jeffrey Azov, who is as smart and nice a human being as you could possibly want to have as your manager. So they've got a plan, as does the label, but we have been talking all 2024 about these really fun, interesting artists

who are finding Elaine. And do you think Tate has found Elaine yet? I mean, you broke me first is a really compelling song. I really loved that song the first time I heard it. I was like, wow, this woman is going to be something. Yeah. So it's, to the question of how she found Elaine, that's where I was hoping you would take this.

because I'm not, like, I think to the extent that the answer is yes. What lane? She's at a war shows with Kid Leroy. It's like a lane that doesn't really exist anymore, which is great music videos. Yeah. Like, to me, the things that Tate McRae has done that are like... The naked destructive video that she did for this? It's great.

Like, the visuals are great. It's not, it's not what everybody does right now. It is, you know, it's a little like Britney Spears derivative. she's calling back to some of the David La Chappelle like Rolling Stone photo shoot imagery. She's done a few other Britney callbacks like she wore the archival to the VMAs.

So she's doing a little bit of like telegraphing some of her references and how she wants to to sort of place herself in a lineage. But I do think like one, she is an incredible dancer. She's a really, really, really good dancer. They're not that. that many people that we talk about on this show or who are sort of in the top tier of the pop ecosystem

where dance is at the forefront of what they're offering. Go, girl, give us nothing. I mean, Dua is the least of our problems. Come on. But it's an interesting, I think, challenge because I'm not sure, like music videos. are as important to... I guess I should frame this as a question. Like, how important do you think a music video

is to that rollout? Because to your point, like, that thing must have been expensive to make. Yeah, I think they mattered for Sabrina. I think they matter a little bit. But they don't matter if there's not compelling songs. And the problem for me with Tate stuff, so far, and the problem with it's okay, I'm okay,

is that it's just okay. And so... I think it's better than okay, but I don't think it's great. Look, here's what I'll say about her music so far. And you broke me first, stands out because I just don't think that you can make mindless pop music right now.

I think there is too much happening in the world. We have all been introduced to the concept of therapy and being more emotive as human beings, as evolved, higher, you know, emotional intelligence humans. And I think people expect that in their music. If they want... Oh, I completely disagree with this. I'm just telling you, I think if you want background music, that's why house and dance is there. Like, that's something that you don't need to think too hard about and they can just be on the background. I just don't think we're seeing you've got to have... Look, right now, Tate is kind of, I mean, she's being marketed as beautiful and the Kid Leroy thing and a dancer.

But there isn't that lane for her yet that she's claimed and put a stake in the ground. And when you listen to the music, I'm not so sure that there is a narrative around which to build a cinematic universe. I mean, Charlie released a club record, but all of the remixes and there was so much. narrative around that album. Taylor is Taylor. Sabrina is like horny smart. And, you know, there's an angle to that. Okay, but to that point, the angle doesn't have to be that complicated because I don't think, like, to me, the reason that I don't think it's okay, I'm okay, quite reaches the level that it probably needed to reach is like, if there were a real juicy hook in there instead of where it drops out and you have the sort of like, it's like the duo

songs. Or like Ariana Grande Problem, which is a great song that I think does that in a better way. But it's like it's pulling back when you expect it to release. And sometimes that's cool. I think if there were like a big smash hook

that worked its way into people's heads, this would be a bigger song. More so than... And they may have one behind it. Right. But I think that that would be more meaningful rather than if she, you know, if the song had a message. If it had, like, to me, the problem is not that it's mindless. It's that if it's going to be mindless, it needed just a little bit more of an earworm quality. I mean, the song of the summer, the chorus of the song of the

summer was that's that me espresso. Like, and I'm not saying that Sabrina doesn't have depth or an angle. Like, I think she has a very smart one. And there's probably a conversation about, how Tate could kind of triangulate that. But, like, I don't think... I think there are a lot of people doing therapy speak. I don't think everybody needs to be doing it. And part of why I'm interested in her is that it seems like maybe she doesn't want to do that.

And to me, that's actually a plus. Okay. I mean, for you, that's... But then you've got to tell me what her lane is. I mean, she did this... Ryan Tedder's one of the writers on this record. This song sounds to me like... pop music from five or ten years ago, not today. And I just think that an element of pop music today is that the stuff that's successful, people are taking something from the lyrics. And, you know,

I'm not sure that you get that right now with Tate. And I'm not sure it's enough to be, you know, to just do the video. But I understand what they're doing. They're making her very present. And I do think the ground is fertile, to your point, if she can put out a hit, I just think this one is okay and is probably doing better because she has been omnipresent. People are curious, right? Kid LaRoy, she's around. It feels like maybe, you know, maybe there's something that's ready to incinerate if you can provide the spark. But it just, it isn't there yet with the music. But this may be a very intentional campaign to warm it up and to put something out there that allows her to go out and introduce herself in a deeper way to the rest of the world. And then they've got a song

or two that they think are going to grab you a little bit more by the throat and make you pay attention. I think one thing that I may be hearing better in what you're saying now is there's a difference between getting something from the lyrics versus like introspection, right? Yeah, yeah, for sure. If she had something to say about, okay, I am doing dance pop. I am like bumping up the BPM

and distinguishing myself that way, but it does sound a little bit like things that were popular five, six years ago, but here's my point of view on how that relates to the world right now and being a pop star right now. And you can develop that in a way that's not sort of like here's my, you know, here's my open wound. Let me, let me bleed for you verbally. Just because, like, to me, that is such an overcrowded lane.

Um, but I agree with you that there's a difference between, like, she doesn't have to do that, but she could give a little bit more in terms of, like, how does she see the world? What does she stand for? Who is she? Yeah, that's what it is. I just can't exactly tell who she is yet. And I'd love an opportunity to feel like, wow, that's a song I connect deeply with so that I can dive in. It's all there, though. It's just about the music. I mean, it really is at this point. She's a hockey lover. I can tell you that about her. Yeah, she loves hockey. And like, there was sort of something to that in a weird way where it was, the second I saw

the Zamboni or the album cover where she's wearing the hockey pads and underwear, there's it's like really memorable. There's something about that where it's sort of, it's like a little weird, it sticks in your brain, it's funny, it kind of has a sense of humor, like I'm not saying that Tate McCrane's whole lane should be hockey, but no, but yeah, it's got to be more than hot girl to be totally candid. It does. And it just, it feels like she's sort of walking down the, the hallway knocking on doors, trying to figure out which one is open that she can walk through. And it's okay if she's still finding herself and her voice as an artist. These things sometimes take time. Certainly for Sabrina, right? That's what happened. And she found her lane. So again, the ground is

enormously fertile. Use whatever freaking metaphor you like, but it won't take much to get a fire started here around this woman because she is doing the work. That's what I notice is she's out there. She's doing the work, to your point, she's a really good dancer. She's willing to put herself out there in a confident way. You're asking the question. She's being talked about on this podcast right now because she's drifting in and out of the scene around the things that we talk about and pay attention to on a regular basis. It is just whether that music is going to take a real hold and send her skyward. I would love to see her perform at an awards show or something like that. Because for all of the omnipresence, you know, even for all of the dancers that we saw at the VMA,

there are moments where I wonder if she could get in the mix and maybe feel a little bit more in conversation with some of the other people who are central to the zeitgeist right now. And because maybe this is a byproduct of the just sort of not understanding what her lane is problem. but like I don't I don't think of her as having a relationship to, you know, Sabrina or Gracie or Taylor or like, I just don't quite think of her somehow in the same world. It's like she's on a different planet. And it's a little bit of an odd feeling. I don't quite know why that is. But maybe it's for all the reasons that we just talked about. Yeah.

I mean, she's done the NHL All-Star game. She's done the Brit Award. She's done, you know, jingle ball and the eye heart stuff. So she's out there doing those things. Okay, suppose what I mean is award shows that I watch. Okay. Well, I think, yeah, you're saying the same thing. You need a reason to connect with her.

And I think that's what you're struggling to grasp on to. It's like, why, yeah, how do I? And I wonder if there were times to see her dance and for her to present the visuals because I do like I think the visuals are the strongest piece of the project. And if she had a platform and I'm not saying she doesn't have any platforms

to do this, clearly you just listed some of them. But like if there were a big platform where she could present that where it's not someone has to go seek out a music video, I just wonder if, I wonder if the dancing would resonate with some people because I think she's like, I think she's an incredible dancer

and it's very cool to see the choreography just to see sort of the way that she puts those visuals to what she's singing. Like, it's, it's... Yeah. It's not something that's never been done before,

certainly, but it's actually something that's not that common in the current pantheon. So I think that's why I'm sort of rooting for it. Yeah. Well, she's got to find a way to make the music matter

to the listener. She will have lots of people who are ready to jump on board because she has, as you say, all of the elements. I just think in this moment and time, year of our Lord 2024, in the wake of a tsunami of female pop music that has been released that has, I don't know how much of it has broken new ground, but it's certainly taken hold in the hearts and playlists of a whole lot of listeners. That's a lot of noise. And pop music is hard to break through. Music, generally speaking, is hard to break through and have people stream.

So there is a heck of a lot of competition right now, and I think the bar has been placed pretty high for someone to come through as, in the same way, it's come through as new, in the same way that we're seeing Katie and maybe, you know, maybe we're going to talk about Gaga, sort of struggling to sort of figure out how they fit into the landscape. And I think I've said to you that, and my sense is that Miley probably pulled back from whatever she was going to do over the course of the last year and said, let me make sure I'm watching and listening and thinking about what this means for me before I just reinsert myself into the narrative because it feels like it's time. Probably the smartest thing that Miley did was just, hey, let's let this settle down here. Let's let people get through the album cycles of chapel and let's let Chapel go.

play some festivals and Charlie XTX get out there and, you know, let's let some of this burn off before we try to compete for listenership because Sabrina Carpenter has three songs in the Billboard 100 for the sixth week in a row. That's never been done by a female artist before. So how am I going to break in there and really matter? Maybe it's just a function of time more so than trying to go head to head with the moment. I must confess that I was a little bummed when Miley Cyrus's name didn't pop up on the, what is it? Brat, but it's completely different.

Brat, but it's all new songs, but it's still brat, but it's completely different. All the remix stuff. Yeah, I would have loved. You're going to see enough from Miley. Don't worry. She's coming. I just, when Charlie was DJing a set, like, an Ibiza or something, I just. she played Miley Cyrus, see you again, and the crowd went wild. I just thought, if we could get

those two in a room. Well, it can still happen. But even Charlie now is talking about how she's going to need to go away for a while. I mean, Taylor's going to go away for a while. Listen, Taylor's not playing L.A. I just want everybody to know that. She's not playing L.A. So the dream of, you know, her coming and doing some shows in L.A. after Vancouver is not going to happen. And I think there's a chance that a number of these people who have been out and present are going to disappear for a bit. Chapel, I don't know. Chapel, I hope, disappears for a bit, just for her own mental health. But that will leave a little bit of a void. And you and I have spoken over the past month about whether there's a male artist who can step in there. Harry sure seems to be active. behind the scenes and starting to think about coming back at some point. It's about time, right? It's been two years since that record and it's time. Do you have any active behind the scenes, anything more that you can share with us on that front, Nathan Hubbard, being very cryptic?

No, I don't. No, I don't. No, I don't. But look, on the Miley front, you're going to see her in 2025. And I think some of these, look, we're talking about this in the context of Tate and whether there's space for anybody right now. We all exist in the context of Tate McCray. Yeah, but like, is there space for anybody right now? I think the smartest artists stepped back and stepped away, and that's probably part of the reason why with this marketing campaign, they're not coming out talking about an album that you need to be thinking about right now.

They're just trying to position her in culture, see how the song takes, and then move it into an album campaign once they've activated a fan base. and they don't need to be in a rush because, again, three of the top 10 spots in the Billboard Hot 100 are Sabrina's right now and there's a lot,

you know, Chapel's got another one and it's just pretty full at the inn right now. I thought that phrase was funny. Last thing on tape, the kid Leroy looks too much like Justin Bieber. Oh.

Really? It's freaky. It freaks me. me out. When's the last time you saw Justin Bieber? Well, that's a fair point. But he looks too much like Justin Bieber has at one point in his life looked. Canadians. I mean, I don't know what to tell you. Are you saying they're like their cousins? Well, he's not, yeah. No, I, I, um, listen, the Bebs is another one. The Bebs is, uh, no, the Bebs is, do you think the Bebs will ever come back? Yeah, I do. Um, seriously? But I do.

Yeah. But I think it's going to have to be not, hey, here's a world tour. Yeah. It's going to be, I'm going to go play four nights in this market and make some money. And then I'm going to take a little bit of a break. And then I could maybe go to Japan and play four nights there. And then it'll be a break. But I don't, this is not a guy who, you know, the thing about a lot of these stars who got

famous early on in their lives is they basically. were treated like, you know, monkey boys and rolled out to go clap and play the symbols. And so, you know what they hate? They hate performing because it's like rebelling against the parent and pushing back against the construct that made you miserable. And so for a lot of these people, it just isn't fun anymore. Now, the flip side, and this is the conundrum that all artists who grow up young and wealthy have to face is that they're not very good at controlling their finances and you know, not spending too much money. And so they get into a lifestyle situation. By the way, I think it's the reason why you see a lot of older acts way past their prime. Keeping it going.

Yeah. Keeping it going because they got castles literally in the countryside of England to maintain. And that shit is expensive. So, you know, in the Bieber case, he's got a lifestyle. And, you know, there's some grumbles. There's been some grumbles about his financial situation. I mean, his wife now has a very, very successful. Yeah, I was going to say at the rate that I go through, glazing milk, I don't want to hear about financial troubles in the Beaver Baldwin household. I'm just saying, you know, there's, there certainly is incentive for him to get back out there again. I think he's got a young child. Let's see how fatherhood evolves him. And, and, but I, I, I, I, There's going to be more bebeer in our lives at some point.

I love the bebe, so I'm all for it. I wish him nothing but happiness. And I buy a lot of his wife's skincare. All right, you want to talk about Gaga? What do you think there is to say about Gaga right now? The reviews for this movie are not good. The reviews for this movie are not good. And the behind the scenes, Hollywood reporter, variety dysfunction articles are starting to come fast and furious.

That is all very interesting to me, but I think sort of not our problem as it relates to our discussion about Gaga as a recording artist. But I did think it was interesting. And we're talking about, so a little over a week ago, Gaga released Harlequin, which is the companion album to Joker Folliardé de. I'm sorry, was that French? Foliad de. Foliad de. I want you to know that when I wrote that out of my notes, I do. did do the little accent grave.

How you like that? Last week I got beat up for the southern accent. This week, you're trying to top me with a faux-French accent. But I actually have to tell you that after we recorded, or after we saw it, like, the next day or whatever, I wanted to go back and remember which Holly Humberstone songs you were recommending, which, by the way, I went and listened to, like, listen to all your recs, Really, really loved them.

Particularly loved Overkill and Scarlet I got very into. So, thank you for the Holly shout-out. But when I went back, I was trying to find it, and I was looking at the transcription of the episode. And when you were saying, like, get the hell out or whatever it was, where I thought you said it in a Southern accent, it did transcribe the word hell as hail, H-A-I-L. And I felt validated by that.

Okay. Well, I told you, I come by it honestly, but what the hell? Gaga puts out this sort of surprise companion album to the movie. You know, she's in the movie. We know she's in the movie. Releases the album as a surprise. It is mostly, she sort of, she describes it as album 6.5, which to me, I think telegraphs, like, this is not an official Lady Gaga, the artist album.

No. You're supposed to think of this as something different. It is mostly covers. There are only two original songs. Mostly she's doing like, you know, it's very songbook. She's doing that's entertainment. Like,

when the saints go marching in. Yeah. And we know Gaga loves this, you know, the songbook classics. She does. Her Tony Bennett era prove that to us.

And I think, you know, there's no signs that that's something that she wants to totally leave behind. But I think just given all of the conversations that we had around Katie Perry and the different ways of trying, possibly trying and failing, to stay present,

to insert yourself into a conversation about contemporary music, contemporary pop music that's happening right now. I was curious to talk about Gaga just in terms of like if she has any relationship to that discussion with what she's doing with this stuff.

Well, she's telling us I think that there's another pop album that's going to follow this. Yes. Thank you for saying that. But Gaga 7 is in some way on its way. And probably not far behind. Can we just start with this? Is she a good actress?

Yeah. I don't know if she's a broad range as an actress. I also, I will say, I have not seen this movie. I'm not going to see this movie. This movie is not for me. And it would scare me. So I'm not going to see it.

Did you see a star is born? Yes. And I thought she was excellent. Yeah. Now, is she on some level playing? I did see House of Gucci. I can't if I can't really evaluate House of Gucci on a spectrum of like good to bad. Somehow it exists on a separate place.

In-house of Gucci? I'm trying to come up with an analogy for what asking me to answer that question in those terms is like, it's like, it's like are the popcorn, are the popcorn jelly beans good? Okay. I don't know.

They're just, they're doing something else. Gaga in House of Gucci was doing something else. That's what I'll say to you. Okay. Well, I don't think, I don't think for,

like House of Gucci's bizarre tendencies do not fall on Stephanie Germanota's shoulders. Okay, I think that's fair. But yes, in general, I think that she is, I don't think she is like a great actor of our time. But I think she has a certain, she has a real presence. She obviously is an incredible singer. And in the right role, she can be really captivating on a stage. Like what was so incredible about a star is born, obviously people loved the music and the story is compelling. But like, she and Proudly Cooper just had a chemistry that was like you couldn't take your eyes away from it.

Is that acting? I don't know. Maybe that's an interesting question. But it's something. It's something that provides value and engagement to an on-screen performance. Well, did you see the performance at the 11th? Olympics? Yes.

What was your take on that? I'm trying to... So I did see it. It was so overshadowed to me by Celine. Right. That I'm having trouble even, like, placing it in my head. But I did see it. And I certainly didn't think it was like...

It was like on the steps of the sand. Yeah, no, I can... She was wearing like the big hat, the pink hat, right? There was a lot going on, but I'm not sure. In my head, she's wearing a pink hat, but I'm realizing that I... She was singing in French. Yeah. I think I thought it was fine.

Like I think I thought it was fine, which like frankly is how I feel about this companion album. Like it's, she has a great voice. It's fun to hear her do the, the sort of classic jazz standards.

But I don't know that it feels like artistically ambitious or creative. Yeah. It's time for whatever the next iteration of poker face is from Gaga, in my view. She's... Yeah.

needs to do something weird again. She's 38. We know more about her fiancee now than we do about the sort of center core of her as a musical artist in this moment. And so I'm ready for a new album. I think all of this is precursor to a new album. So just as we've talked about Tate McCrae, sort of trying to seed the garden a little bit before those green shoots start blooming up,

shooting up around an album, that is what's happening here with Gaga. And the timing will matter. And I think you're right that just like Gucci didn't really fall on her, you're starting to see a lot of chatter because the fan response to this Joker movie is not good. And so there is the blame game behind the scenes. All of the publicists are doing their work to try to figure out, is it the director's fault?

Is it? Well, and again, I'm so out of my depth on this, but they alienated the comic book fan base in some way by sort of distancing the project from that. And that has very little to do with Gaga. Right. I do think, like, there's something to me, and again, I can say eight million times. on this podcast, this is just like not my world. But, you know, there's something about her in the character of Harley Quinn

that's interesting, that's cool, it feels sort of right. Where I do think that even if this is a total disaster, I still feel like she, you know, some things don't work out, right? Like, I still feel like Gaga chooses interesting projects. Yes. Well, we've talked about that. It's never boring with her.

You may not like the art, but she's multifaceted as an artist. And that is interesting to me. And let's see her come back to the bass and put out a banger of a pop album. That's what I want to see. And you think she will definitely... I mean, I know we know that the seventh one

has been build as coming, but you think that... Whenever that comes out, it's going to be a return to early career Gaga aesthetics, musical aesthetics. I do. I think it's going to be her stamp on pop music in this moment. And it may land like the Katie Perry album. It may, you know, her little monsters, I think, are pretty passionate bunch. So if there's decent red meat for the bass, I think it'll go well. But I do think. basically everybody's moved albums out of Q4 because they just, the election is going to take over the consciousness of America. And that's where a huge chunk of the market is certainly commercially, financially,

financially for the record labels and for the artists as they tour. So nobody's going to try to get in the way of that between now and Christmas. All of these things are going to start to come out after the first of the year. So basically what you're telling us is that there's going to be another huge spring of pop releases. Yeah, stuff has just moved in that direction now. Being the song in the summer is more important. I mean, look, it used to be, you'd put out the album around Christmas because that's when everybody would go and they'd buy it as a gift.

And yes, vinyl is still a thing, but really that's for the crazy super fans who are going to do it anyway. And, you know, all the different variants. And so now it makes more sense to put out music in advance of the summer so that as people are congregating and getting together in the warmer seasons, that you've got the music that people share with one another. You become the soundtrack of those moments. Do you feel like if it ends up being a relatively crowded spring then

or whenever this stuff starts to all come out? I mean, one thing, you know, one of the things that we talked a lot about with Katie, but I think we've talked about more broadly over the past half year, has been this big moment and stretch and pop that's built that has not exclusively belonged to a new generation. Like obviously Taylor spans generations, Beyonce, but has been defined in some ways by the presence of some real newcomers.

Yeah. Do you think that there is, like, would you bet on Gaga as someone who is older and who is of an older generation of pop star to be able to join that and further to be space for her? I think that her passionate base will embrace any kind of return to pop in a way that allows her to go play an arena tour that people want to see. at 38, 39 years old, is she going to release an album that goes straight to number one and stays there in the way that we've seen Sabrina Carpenter's album stay? I'm not so sure. But I don't think anybody, I don't think she needs that, right?

Yeah. In the same way that, like, Coldplay just played Saturday Night Live. They did a song on QVC. This album that they just put out sounds like a rangeover commercial to me, and that is somebody who was like a passionate fan of the band's first, you know, several albums. And they just announced a North American tour that's going to continue one of the highest grossing tours of all time. The band is awesome live. Chris Martin himself understands the limits of his own ability to keep creating at the age that he's at and in the sort of, you know, socioeconomic stratosphere that he's in. and he's said cold play is a band will continue to yeah coal play as a band will continue to perform for as long as they want to but i think in terms of making albums cold play is is dead in that way according to chris himself now it is the rare artist who says that and announces that billy joel was conscious of that and stepped away and declared and chris martin

with cold plays, like, people don't need to hear more than 12 Coldplay albums. Like, they just don't. At some point, it just gets lost. It's not the kind of band that we are. I actually think Chris could do something amazing with Tate McCray. Like, Chris is a creator. He would be an incredible producer. Now, that's a great idea. See? Because the man, music just runs through that guy, and you hear from the chain smokers the way that he sort of works and creates. And he is a, maybe he is something.

and so there's still contributions that he can make. I just think the vehicle maybe isn't Coldplay anymore. Anyway, to tie it back to Gaga, this is that pivotal moment, right? I mean, she has been doing a whole bunch of stuff outside of pop music. She's an actress. She's the songbook singer. She's the jazz singer. Can she come back and find roots here in a way that makes everybody pay attention?

I think she's just always had that sort of, she's had the weird lane, right? Yeah. She has. But what propelled her to stardom was that it was the weird lane with songs that you could not, they're just undeniable hits. Undeniable hits. And it was, and there were ideas behind the weird shit that she'd do, right?

Like there was, the meat dress was weird, but it was also interesting. And it added something to a conversation about, like, about pop stardom and why we've, find these people fascinating and what we want to look at when we look at them. And, you know, she's been so much more, like, for lack of a better word, normal in these last

few, in the eras of these last few projects, that it's like, it would be interesting to see her put the crazy costumes back on and do the bizarre world gaga thing again. but... Die with a Smile is the song that's out now with Bruno Mars. I think of it

really is a Bruno Mars song. It sounds like a Bruno song, but it's a hit. I mean, it debuted at number three on the Billboard Hot 100. It's been hanging around

since they released it. And I don't think that it has that staying power or is that successful if it doesn't have Gaga on it. And so that's an indication, I think, fan base is there and ready.

And the last hit that she had before this was probably shallow in 2018. Her biggest hit ever was shallow. And that was six years ago. But it was also like a completely straight down the middle ballad duet. Yes. So what are we going to get? There is space for her. And again, I think she's interesting as an artist because of all

of the facets of her. And also because she, I mean, I think she benefits from the fact that she's had, she's had the like, quote unquote flop era that age as well and that people come back to and are like, wait, actually, art pop was sick. And like that story that you always see circulate on social media about Taylor Swift telling her she liked art pop and Gaga being like, oh, yeah, sure. and then somebody else coming back to her and being like, hey, you know, Taylor Swift loves art pop.

And then obviously applause is part of the Ares set list. And Gaga being like, I don't really think anybody liked art pop. But now that album is something that people are like, you know, especially in her fan base. And it's sort of a, it's in the clubs. It's like, oh, art pop was underappreciated in its time. And I think the fact that she has had that arc with something is probably helpful. because there's a little bit of the muscle memory of like

give her, you know, give her a tie, like give something a second look. Not everything is exactly as, as it seems at first blush. Gaga's always got something up her sleeve. Yeah. So I'm excited. Well, chromatica was really the last thing, right?

Yes. But even like, okay, chromatica. Like rain on me. And like rain on me is not a week. song by any stretch of the imagination. Right. So in some ways, like, if she really goes there again...

She won a Grammy for that. That's funny to me. But, like, that song's fine. Best pop duo group performance. I mean... Yeah, one of those fake Grammy. Because Ariana was on there. Yeah, exactly. So, lots to take into.

I'm really, really excited to hear whatever that turns out to be, just because I feel like I have no fucking clue what she's going to do. And, like, with someone with... that's good of a track record for making interesting and surprising, but ultimately, mostly successful decisions is Gaga. I think that's a great place to be. Yeah. She's had six consecutive number one albums. This one will be fine. It's just how it continues and whether it permeates culture in the same way. I just think her base, her base is more loyal, more active. She's done the work in a way that, you know,

Katie Perry and Duo, not that they haven't done the work, it's just that they don't have that level of die-hards. It just don't. And that's not knocking Katie's fans. It's not knocking Deu's fans. It's just that Gaga speaks to an audience that is absolutely ride or die for her. Anything else on your mind? No. I mean, there are a few interesting things that might be around the corner. We have a Halsey record coming. Yep. we do have this Charlie bunch of remixes coming including including

including I might say something stupid featuring the 1979 yeah I mean it's fucking inspired like that is a good joke it's fantastic and good on Charlie

I mean she said she's never going to be able to market an album like this again and it is it is without question, the best marketed album of 2024. I'm not sure I can remember a campaign that has been as effective as these backwards billboards in the artist's hometown. Yeah.

Just letting analog translate to digital. Totally. A color? A season. An aesthetic, uh, like an identity, a word. An adjective. Yeah. An adjective. It's just an incredible.

just an incredible campaign. She turned a noun into an adjective. She changed a part of speech. Like that doesn't happen every day or every year or every decade. Troy must not be having fun on that tour. I do feel bad for Troy Sivan.

It's got to be hard. I've heard people who went say it's like a little like they tried to clap like extra loud because it just was sort of awkward, which is a bummer. But they're, from all I can tell they're genuinely good for us. and hopefully, I don't know.

There is, I think I've said this before, there is to me something a little bit like almost charming in a weird way about the fact that like, clearly no one really saw this coming in terms of what Brat really became because if they had, Charlie would not have been on a co-headlining tour with Troy Savon this fall. And, you know, one of the one thing I think is interesting and fun about, about the pop ecosystem is how much is sort of strategized and telegraphed and everybody's planning

and plotting and trying to, you know, position themselves in the best way. And I think that's very interesting to watch and talk about. But things that are more organic than that can be the most magical. And I guess there's something to that. But yeah, I don't think, I feel that. Chapel Rhone on Saturday Night Live, November 2nd, three days before the election, the American presidential election is going to be something to see. That is a hell of a booking, isn't it? Yeah, it's going to be something to see. I had not put together before you said that,

that it was three days before the election. Jesus. Yeah. So after all of this, she may have the last word on television before everybody. I know. It's going to be interesting. Do you feel like this is,

and then we're just going to end the podcast, but I've been thinking about this, so I'm just going to say it because we're here and, you know, it's just us gals chatting. When we were talking about, everything last weekend and her pulling out of the festival and just navigating the moment that she's in. It reminded me a little bit of what you were referencing with child stars earlier in this conversation just for like, I wonder if part of what's going on is just like she feels

like everybody's telling her what to do. And she just kind of wants to do things that are not what people like is like reflexively going I'm not going to do that I'm going to do something different I'm going to like say if uh and I I believe that she holds her politics very sincerely and they're very important to her but like I also wonder if there's a little bit of some of what's happened there where she kind of there's like an itch to do something that's going to kind of bite at people where it's like stop telling me who I am stop telling me everything that I have to do stop just like sort of invading my life. And I wonder if there's a little bit of a reflexive lashing out at

that that's happening, which I feel like would be really, really natural. I think she is bipolar. I mean, she's a manic depressive. And that's an incredibly difficult condition to live with when you are constantly under a microscope. When you naturally, without all of the attention and feedback and judgment and discourse, wake up chemically imbalanced sometimes, it's very, you know, it's very, very hard to manage all of that. And I know people feel like, and I understand that a number of the things that she's spoken about have either been offensive or disappointing or not enough. And you want more from someone with the platform if they're going to speak on these issues. Doesn't necessarily need,

mean that they need to speak on the issues just because they have a platform. But if you have that platform and you're going to speak on the issues, maybe you might try to pronounce the name properly. You might try. And so I understand some of those criticisms, but at the core, that is part of, we say this all the time. It's the fragility is the intrigue of Chapel Rhone. Can she actually handle it? How will she create? You know, I mean, I think she's been open that some of her writing occurs when she's in that manic state, right? And so can she tap into it when you layer on all of this fame? I mean, I noticed in the last week she started talking about,

as she was thanking the audiences, that she clocks into her job. Yeah. Trying to separate Chapel Rhone, the character that she has created, and associate all of that stuff with... something that isn't real, right? That is just her job. And that she can be separate from that to give herself some distance

from all of the pylon and social stuff, right? And just to allow the character to absorb that. When Taylor Swift puts, try to come for my job as the last thing you hear and I can do it with a broken heart. I mean, I think, like, there are a bazillion subtext to tortured poets, but, like, one of them is,

I think it's deeper than this in some ways. She's, I think Taylor Swift knows that she's not an accountant, no offense to accountants. But like,

I think a lot of artists right now are really trying to say to people like, this is my vocation. This is like, I go to work every day and this is what I'm doing. And it's something

about modern fandom does not quite grasp that. Yeah. That's right. And it all, also might be that for some people, being an artist, is not the right job. And you're a football writer, Nora. Barry Sanders walked away in his absolute prime.

It wasn't because he was getting piled on and all the, right? But or Jim Brown walking away as he did. Like, there's a chance that Chapel decides at some point. I'm trying to come on, come with you on this journey. But listen, there's a chance. at some point that Chapel says this isn't the right thing for me to do. And I'm going to go back and be a teacher or I'm going to. That's the fragility there. And that's okay. I think it's okay for artists to push back. It's also okay for fans to say, well, if you want my attention,

this is what I expect from you, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think, I just, I think, you know, people... And there's a line that's going to move that has to be set by the artist. The fan can take it or leave it. and the right. But I think there's a lot of, it's a lot of the way that, you know, we all online and just sort of in the nature of fandom relate to the artist where it's actually not just taking it or leaving it.

It's not just sort of people vote with their wallets and, and they listen or they don't, where it's just a lot louder than that. And I do think in particular for, for someone who in their, you know, in their being, but also in their art, very explicitly

is representing and sort of holding a flag for a marginalized community. Yep. There's something unfair that happens

where because of that, we hold her to a much higher standard. Like, I don't, I think, I think Chappell Rohn has made some,

some real mistakes in how she's talked about. She's been famous for a month. Right. But, like, I also think that, like, has said some really stupid stuff.

And nobody gives a shit. Like, I don't really get, like, I'm not saying that we should care about both. I'm just saying that they gave a shit enough for him to, you know, delete his Twitter for a while. And didn't that what he insulted Taylor? Yeah, he did a pretty major apology tour around that. Okay, to be clear, that's not what I'm talking about.

Yeah, his girlfriend was ready to break up with him. It sounded like, anyway. Look, I also think, fan bases overestimate the power and impact of that platform. Like, I'm sorry, Taylor Swift and Doris Kamala, did it move the polls? Let's see. Is it going to get out those 20,000 people in seven swing states and tip the need? I'm not sure.

Did it energize the base? Yes, all those things. But like, Taylor Swift is not going to bring world peace. Well, and also, I mean, look, it sure did get a lot of people to register to vote. but if there's one person capable of doing this, it's Taylor Swift, and it's frankly not Chapel Rhone. And it's not Zach Bryan

and it's not a lot of other people. That's not to say that I don't think that, like, you know, if someone believes that this is an incredibly pivotal time, I think that if you have a platform, I at least would look very positively on someone who believes that, you know, if you can do some good with that, you should. Well, like...

That's for sure. And it's the small bits that matter. So I'm not saying don't use the platform. I just think fans can get overly obsessed when Chapel makes a mistake, that it's going to have damning consequences for the community. And I think we can give her some grace and know that in the aggregate,

the net benefit of Chaparone being the biggest queer pop star in the world is super positive right now. Well, and also, like, whether she's making the right decision or the wrong decision or sort of comporting yourself exactly how you or I or any fan or anyone would want her to, I think it's worth recognizing that there is something unfair about the fact that somehow her missteps are sort of doubly damning to her in a lot of people's eyes. because of what she represents, despite the fact that that's, you know, first of all, like she's like just a person coming into her own as a queer person in our society.

She's young. She's figuring herself out. Not to mention doing that in an immense public spotlight. And then not to mention doing that when all of that again, like doubles down to make the expectations placed upon her even bigger.

So I, again, just like... To bring it. full circle, as Tate McCray said, I would say to the fan base, you broke me first. Don't break chapel. And the words of the scholar, Tate McCray, be nice to travel around. All right, I think let's leave it there, Nathan. I hope you're feeling better. I'm feeling. I'm less grumpy. That's good. You did it. You told me you were going to do it. And I didn't even think about being grumpy until you just brought it back up. Thank you. I'm having a better day. Wow. This actually like this totally makes my day. Who knew? A little, a little lady Gaga Tate McCray conversation just with the doctor

ordered. All right. This has been every single album. I'm Nora Princiotti. As always, he's Nathan Hubbard. Thank you to the wonderful, the fabulous, the iconic Kai McMullen for producing this episode. And to you for listening. We'll talk to you next week.