Every Single Album - What's Next for Chappell Roan, Lady Gaga's "Disease," and Taylor Swift's Style

Episode Date: November 15, 2024

Nora and Nathan discuss the news that Chappell Roan is parting ways with her management and what might be coming next for the artist after a very busy summer (1:00); the muted reaction to Lady Gaga's newest single, "Disease" (23:52); and what we can learn about Taylor Swift from the way she dresses (40:17). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's happening? It's Todd McShay and I'm back with a new home and a new show at the Ringer and Spotify. The McShay Show. It's a video and audio podcast coming to you year round with all my NFL draft information, big boards, mock drafts and player movement. Plus, I'll be chatting with some of my best friends in football, including some of your favorite football analysts. During the week, we'll have episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays that'll include discussions about my player rankings, who's rising, who's falling, and who your NFL team should be. keeping an eye on. Plus, we'll be reacting each week to the college football playoff polls and giving you previews and picks for each Saturday slate. In addition, I'll have episodes on Saturday

nights with my immediate reaction to the full day in college football every week. So if you love the college game, the NFL, the draft, or all of it like me, make sure to like, follow, subscribe, and get ready for the McShay show on the ringer, Spotify, and wherever you watch or listen to podcasts. Every single album, I'm Nora Princiotti. As always, I'm joined by Nathan Hubbard. And we've got a lot to talk about today. We're going to talk a little bit about Chapplerone and what might be coming up on the horizon in her career, which has had some interesting updates lately and also some new music. We're going to talk a little bit about Lady Gaga, who we've checked in on a couple times in recent weeks and months. But I'm interested to get Nathan's thoughts on how

the disease rollout is going and what we're feeling a few months out of her seventh album, LG7, as they call it. And then we're going to check in on Taylor Swift. But let's start with Chapel. Nathan, we were tangentially involved in a little bit of breaking news or sort of breaking news that wasn't breaking news, which is that a couple of days ago, right after the Grammy nominations came out, Billboard sort of quasi reported that Chapel split with her management team. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, this is something that you'd brought up on this podcast like a few weeks ago. Well, the news seemed to be that she responded to it with y'all suck for this.

But I'll tell you what my take is on that. I don't think Chapel, and people have sort of dumped up. in chapel a little bit and been like, oh, she doesn't understand that like this is part and parcel of being famous. I don't think Chapel had a problem with them breaking the news. I think she had a problem with in the social media posting, them specifically pointing out that she did not thank the old manager in her postings about the Grammy nominations, as if she had intentionally excluded them in any capacity. And I'll say this. I think that was what her problem was when she said, y'all suck. Because it was sort of, it wasn't sort of, it was directly inferring that she had

passive aggressively or aggressively excluded. And I don't think that's how she feels. In a lot of cases, artists change managers. There are very few manager-artist relationships that last an entire career. I also happened to know that Chappell's old manager is really smart, and I think they, you know, the evidence speaks for itself they did a good job. I have no idea why now she decided to make that change. But I can also see from her perspective stirring shit up as if she isn't grateful or even suggesting that they didn't part amicably. And I've heard that they absolutely did and that the old manager has been supportive

through this transition period. I don't know anything, but I think that that was probably the reaction because it is not unnatural for an artist and a manager to part ways. It is not always the case that it's super friendly, but it frequently is, and things just run their course.

So my sense is that's what Chappell was reacting to here. But it did sort of feed into this narrative, Nora, of Chappell's initial reaction, people, Anytime Chappell gets upset because of some intrusion into her personal or business life, people are starting to jump on it, aren't they? Yeah, I do think that, and especially people who aren't paying close attention, right? Like, all they're seeing from that is industry trade publication reports, industry trade news, and she reacts to it.

Now, I think the other thing that that may be fed into part of her choice to respond to that and her not being happy about that was that just the timing because, and I'm, you know, we are not here to break news. We were, you were not even specifically talking about it and blah, blah, blah, blah, like I'm not trying to have us take a victory lap for that. That's not the purpose of this podcast. We don't care. It had come up because there were a lot of fans, I think, posting.

saying what she's upset about is the timing because it's coming right after the Grammy things are announced and, you know, she gets these nominations. And the fact that the post is coming then when there were other things that suggested this had happened last month makes it seem like, you know, she's upset even in the face of all of this success. and I think maybe some of the fans felt like that too was feeding into the idea that she, like, doesn't show gratitude or something. I don't think any of that really resonates with me as true or reasonable. Chapel will tell you what she thinks when she wants you to know. I think what we've learned is that... I guess in some ways she did leave something up for interpretation. Like, would it have better if she had said, like, instead of y'all suck for this, y'all suck.

for including this weird BS about me not thanking people. Like maybe, maybe that would have helped a little bit. But like in general, I'm so with you that we don't have like a problem of not knowing where Chapel Roan stands on things in general. Yeah. She's going to let us know. And I think she's also been pretty clear. It's not her job to help the rest of us interpret anything about her or her life.

for her business. So I think she was just telling them directly in the same way on the red carpet, she said to that photographer who was yelling at her, hey, that's unacceptable. It was done in a public setting in front of a lot of people who had thoughts about it. But she was having a one-on-one conversation. The fact that she's famous and that you were privy to that is not her problem. And I think that's probably how she feels about this. I mean, that's also like, you know, her famous quote at this point. I'm just some bitch, you're just some bitch. If that's really true and that's how she feels, it means that she is not internalizing the criticism. And if that's the case, I mean, so far, her being her has not gotten in the way of immense success, of her artistry. And if it's not

stopping people from being engaged with the project and it's not making her feel upset, then there's really no downside and potentially quite a bit of upside if she's actually able to build a career with some boundaries that tons and tons and tons of other pop stars have told us later on in their careers they really wished they'd had. All of this happened so fast, so fast. And it becomes a rocket ship where you just got to hang on because anyone who pretends that they know what that's like you're learning as you go. Invariably, you get out over your skis on, Wait, wait, how do we actually do an arena tour? We've never done an arena tour.

Wait, how do you handle 11 million incoming PR requests a day? Wait, how do we actually want to communicate publicly or not? Do my posts have to change? It's all learn as you go, trial by fire. And in this age, every quote unquote mistake is interpreted in a million different ways and it's on display for everybody to see. it's really hard and it's hard for the artist. It's hard for the artist team.

I watch it happen a couple times. And sometimes success is not predicated on a set of clear choices in front of you. It's kind of whether you happen to navigate the potholes, fortunately, and not drive over one. So most people who get to that situation, it's just a difficult spot to be in. And in this moment in time, if she's decided that she wants a different team around her, Godspeed, I will say this. It looked to me like she burnt out. It looked to me like the pressure got to her.

And not just that the political dialogue and the pressure she was getting for her endorsement or lack thereof, but that that was maybe a function of a lot of travel, a lot of performance, a lot of time in the public eye. And in hindsight, my gut says if you could go back in time, she wouldn't have played quite as much over the summer and into the fall. The good news is now post SNL. She's got a little bit of a break here and she can get some rest and she can figure out where she wants to go from here. It looks like she's making a lot of music, Nora,

because she went on SNL and did a ballsy fucking thing, which is to play a completely new song that nobody's ever heard before. A gay cowboy song. Let's go. That is not even though she played it on SNL is not available

even to watch a video of like it might be if you're really search for it on the internet, maybe somebody saved it, but it's not up on SNL's YouTube, the recording of that performance, and you can't stream it. I do, I want to talk about the new music in general some more, but just before we move on from the management stuff, because I am curious, I know you said, for anything that you knows, like, relatively amicable, I will say that, like, there have been moments in the last few months when knowing literally nothing, I have been like, huh, who's at the wheel here and are all

of these choices the right ones? In particular, when after she canceled the festival dates, she came back really fast after that. And I, like, that felt strange to me, again, I was a total outsider, but both from the perspective of making the right choices for her health. And then also, I don't know, it's a hard choice to make because you don't want to cancel more stuff if you don't need to. On the other hand, I think it ended up seeming a little bit like a slap in the face. Maybe that's too strong. But to the people who wanted to see her at those shows,

and then it ended up just being a couple of days off. I don't know. I think that ended up being a tougher thing to process. I'm not saying I know what was right and what was wrong. And I certainly am not privy to the amount of information that you would need to like really know the full picture of that situation. What I am saying is that that was a sequence of events a few months ago that made me look at what was going on in her life and her career and go, who's at the reins here? And is this all working at? Like, is this under control? And I wonder if that had anything to do with it. Well, I think when you're reaching that level of meteoric stardom, nobody's in control always.

There's always some chaos. And what you're trying not to do is publish that chaos to the fan base. And I'd agree with you that between the cancellation of shows for what appeared to be, you know, the VMA's performance and then maybe the cancellation, that it looked like there was some chaos afoot. The counter argument to that could just be, I, I, I, I think nobody could have prepared for where she was in September, October, November of 2024.

And if what she needed was some space, then let's give the artist some space. And so that's where I come back to. I just keep coming back to let's start first and foremost with the human being. And yeah, you're right. Publicly, it looked like there was some equivocation maybe behind the scenes, but we just don't know. And so I just default to no judgment. I'm really glad she took the time that she needed to. You saw the social chatter when she canceled those shows for the VMAs.

There were people who said they were traveling to Paris. They were traveling to. So she took some flack online for canceling shows. And here we would be giving her flack for not canceling a show and coming back too much. That's the rock and the hard place that I think she found herself in between. And I think at any given moment, depending on how much of that feedback she was consuming or not consuming and her team was consuming, you make those choices in real time. I just think the best thing that I see right now

is Chapel Roan with some space and some downtime so that she can decide what it is and what kind of artist she wants to be and where she wants to go from here. I do get optimistic and excited about the new stuff, A, because I thought the song was fun. But B, because it's really bold to have, A, a song that's not on any album that's nominated for song and record, but B, to go on SNL the weekend before the U.S. presidential election, which is always a highly watched episode, and play something that nobody has ever heard before and can't get access to. It's pretty fucking rock and roll, if you ask me. And that's what she's going to be.

Great. She's going to be this new generation of rock star that doesn't accept your categorization of the fan artist relationship that doesn't accept the judgment of what she should, in quotes, do because she's famous or how she should, in quotes, communicate, or how she should, in quotes, release music.

Fucking great. Go blaze a new trail. And along the way, like even in any startup company that explodes and goes fast, you break a few things along the way. And so the mission and the objective as an artist or a company or anybody when you're on a rocket ship like that is let's fail fast and fix faster. And I think some of these decisions that she's making with her downtime are around fixing faster because the rocket ship is still going at full speed. Well, and also, I mean, there are things to fix, right?

But like, let's not, let's not lose the forest for the trees here, which is that people are so interested in what she has. to put out. Yeah. She just went through an album cycle where, you know, it's got Grammy nominations. It had a really organic, genuine response from people. It built her this incredibly large and incredibly devoted fan base. Like, there's a lot of drama with Chapel, and there's a lot of stuff that, you know, we follow online, and I think a lot of listeners follow online.

and I am not telling you not to do that. I think it's interesting. I think it is totally fair game. But like, things are not really going wrong with Chapel Row. There might be some drama. There might be some stuff the people have opinions on. But mostly, this is a career that is off to like an unbelievably good start commercially, artistically, like in terms of building a group of people who want to

follow her to the next thing. And now that maybe we're starting to get a sense of what that next. thing, hopefully after some really well-deserved time and space off. But when we do get it, like, based on, you know, if the givers is part of that, she's done a song called The Subway a couple times on the festival circuit. Yeah, you can find that online for sure. That one you can find online. And then good luck, babe, a song that, you know, maybe it'll never be part of any album,

but it could be part of her next sort of era and album cycle and whatever she puts out next, a song that has a bunch of Grammy nominations and that isn't on an album yet or part of anything. So like the next chapter to me looks pretty bright and pretty exciting. And a lot of that has to do with if those are three songs that are going to be part of whatever this next thing is, like I want to hear the rest of it because I like all three of those songs. Yeah. Well, it's just exciting to be following an artist that seems to have no boundaries and completely reject the way things are done. But you're right. Things are great for Chaplin. That's why that's in part why her splitting with her manager was news because I think most people would look and be like, man, this has been like a four or five year partnership and things have gone pretty well.

So interesting to see the change. But as we know, things from the outside are never what they are on the inside. And again, I suspect that Chapel just didn't like the bad vibes part of that post. because you can break with a manager and it can still all be good vibes and respect and all that. And I'm sure that she has gratitude and respect for the people who helped get her to where she is. But at the end of the day, she clearly has a very interesting vision for where she wants to go. That's what we're going to start to see here over the next couple of months. And this is the artist to watch. You know, Norai, as I reflect on the Grammy stuff, and I know we'll talk a little bit more about the Grammys.

I mean, we really in our last pod, and I think rightly characterized it as Beyonce the most likely, and if not Beyonce, then Billy. I do think Chapel's probably the dark horse, because it had a help of them is, you could see it winning. You could see some of the feeling around Beyonce splitting a vote a little bit, which has happened in years past,

where there's been a split vote and a third-party dark horse. You know, Bonnie Raid won for Song of the Year. few years ago. Fair consensus that that's what happened. I think there was some thinking that that might be how Harry got his Grammy. No shade, because hooray for Harry. And by the way, I got such wonderful, I got a little inside birdie telling me this week that Harry is in like the best place and that he's happy and in great shape and taking good care of himself and like mentally in an awesome spot. And it just made me happy. It doesn't mean that he's about to come back because I don't think that's the case. But knowing that, you know, after the death of Liam and a long, drawn-out tour, and we know

that, you know, he ended a long-ish-term relationship, at least certainly for a young man like Harry, I just was so happy to hear that he's in a good place. I'm sorry, that was just really funny to me. Like a young man like Harry Stowe. I just didn't want to be like, you know, I mean, it's not like it's that long term of a relationship. But, you know, for Harry, it's a long-term relationship. Then if you say it like that, it's like, oh, so you mean he just keep bouncing around? No, that's not what I meant. I just many, you know, when you're 20-something years old, a two-year relationship's a long time.

Is he 20? He's got to be in his 30s by now. Harry Styles is not yet 30. Yeah, he's 30 years old. Did he just turn 30? In February. Last February. He's going to turn 31 on February 1st.

Well, there you go. So fuck it. It was a short-term relationship. Once you're, that's the cutoff. You hit 30. Better be putting in some, we're talking in years, not months. Yeah.

But he did, right? Anyway, he's in a good place mentally. It made me very happy to hear that. I'm thrilled to hear that. It may be a little while before we fully hear what's next in the Harry Style chapter. But the point is, you know, I think he won that album of the year.

I love that album. I heard a song from it the other day. there were some people who thought that that might be a split vote. And so you never know what's going to happen, but it is not out of the realm of possibility that the Grammys are a massive moment for Chapel, even though I think our prediction is that she's going to win Best New Artist and probably that's it.

But we'll see because her music is super worthy of it. There's no doubt. And as we said before, I like Best New Artist in particular for her because of all these things that we're talking about, the SNL moment, the good luck babe not being on an album, the drone photos of these bouncing crowds singing hot to go with what looks like 75,000 people in the crowd going absolutely bananas for her.

I mean, she was in a lot of ways, she was the story of the year. And it's going to be great to see that recognized. Do you think we should take anything from the kind of country the country vibes to the giver? I don't. I don't think she's doing a post-Malone pivot. I just think she is doing whatever the fuck she wants.

And that's kind of chapel. She's kind of rock and roll. Yeah. No, I'm totally with you. I think given how many people we've seen do that recently, like Post-Malone, it's, you know, it was brought up to me a couple of times.

I was like, that's an interesting question. But I agree. I just think she, you know, it's, she's trying on costumes because she has fun with those things and because she has such a sense of who she is and what she's doing and her own sense of personality, it's still a chapel Rhone song, which like, that's just, that's like when you know someone's in their bag. Yeah, she's good at playing characters. I mean, Chapel Rhone herself is a character that she's playing. And so she has admitted to that.

So there is some distance between the human being behind the brand. And that makes it easier for her to, I think, insert herself into a bunch of different things. You know, not unlike what we saw and still continue to see Gaga do. Like, I'm not exactly sure where the human being and Lady Gaga start and stop. And that's okay because it makes it easier for us to accept the art. in ways that not every artist has permission to do. Let's talk about Gaga, since you gave me such a wonderful segue. Disease, the first single for her upcoming seventh album coming out in February, allegedly.

It's been out for a little over a week. It debuted at number 27 on the Hot 100, which ended up being a pretty, you know, it felt pretty lukewarm. It was the worst entry for a lead single of hers, really since Gaga was relatively unknown, like, since her debut. And I have to say that I was kind of surprised. Are you into the song? I was into the song. I wasn't like, I wasn't head over heels for it because I think it just sounds like an early Lady Gaga song. She's, you know, doing the dance pop with a little bit of edge and theatricality. that was at the core of her first two albums, which are still her biggest.

And so to me, it was exciting to hear her revisit that, although it was a little bit like, okay, I've heard songs like this before. But I think it's a sturdy song. I like, like, I'll tell you that it debuted a lot higher than number 27 in my spin class. Like, I'm hearing disease in my life. And so maybe we're just doing a little bit

bit of like noratherapy here because I'm still not hearing the Bruno Mars song in my life. And yet I'm told that that is a far more successful project. I hear the Bruno Mars song all the time in the gym, but that's the only place that I hear it. I went back and listened. Hits one is playing the show of it. I listened to die with a smile today front to back before we did this podcast. Okay. And I realized by doing that that I'd never heard the beginning of.

that song before. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah, which there actually is a pretty big change between the start. Yeah, Bruno's stuff and then it gets into the song. And it's so much Bruno Mars. Like, it's barely even, like, she. No, it is. If you're only ever, because I think what happens is I hear that song when it's playing in CVS or the coffee shop or whatever. And therefore, I only really click in when it's like peeking at the chorus. And then I'm like, oh, Lady Gaga. And I, when I, when I click, click play and it was like 25 seconds of just like Bruno Mars. Yeah. Well, did you get a bunch of DMs from people who were like secretly confessing that they've

been listening to the song after they heard us being like nobody listens to it last week? I got some, yes. Yeah. So I think just like it was like the secret Trump voter is the secret Bruno Lady Gaga listener. That's insulting to people. It's okay. To listen to us. Very different, very different demos.

Well, maybe not though. My point is, I think there's a bunch of people who wouldn't necessarily raise their hand, but are listening to the song. Look, I mean, I have to say, first of all. I don't think it's bad. I just think it's sort of boring, I guess. Like, I actually think it sounds, she's a beautiful voice. They both have beautiful voices. Like, when die with a smile hits its peak, it's, it sounds great.

It's just like, it's so adult contemporary. It is. It is. It sounds like, I don't know. Yeah, yeah. It makes me think of, like, like an old school 80s like somewhere out there

duet or something where it was always like oh it's the movie soundtrack something whatever it's fine can we talk about disease and the fact that the video freaks me the fuck out I do not do well with scary movies

okay let me be clear in third grade I had to miss a day of school because I watched the fucking Muppet movie and they were trying to kill Kermit and I was so sick to my stomach scared that the next day I had to stay home because I was just afraid that they were going to kill Kermit.

Now, that has translated into... Oh, my goodness. Oh, I threw up at Ghostbusters. The first fucking Ghostbusters, I threw up. I'm crying. Probably the next scary movie that I was able to watch was not until I was an adult,

and I watched the Blair Witch Project, and I was fine with it because, speaking of throw up, it just makes you fucking sick to your stomach. but I could watch The Brow Witch Project because there was nothing scary. What I'm telling you is, disease is too fucking scary for me.

And I did not miss school or work the next day, but I wanted to. Because I don't enjoy it. And I know it's around Halloween. And we'll come back to the timing because one of the things that I'm going to argue here, everybody has evacuated the fourth quarter because of the election and all the drama and everything.

It's just hard to break through from a noise perspective. And I think Halsey's, album and Gaga's single are probably suffering from the same stuff, which is that people are focused on other things right now. But that aside, the video's too scary for me. It does not make me like want to get into the cinematic universe of zombie old car driving horror movies, even though it was Halloween. But then secondly... Okay, so you really struggle with like, with zombie horror? Because I don't... I can count on one hand

with the number of scary movies that I've seen but I in particular, it's like it's blood and guts. Oh, can't take it. But you can take that over zombies. No, no, I can't take any of it. Okay. I can't say the zombie, like.

I don't want to see her like that. What is that? She did. I mean, she's great with the makeup. Is it going to eat me? It's broad daylight. Is she going to attack? Like, do I got to be worried walking on my car

that this thing is going to jump out and attack me? That's so interesting because, like, what you're describing... How can I engage in the music? What you are describing is exactly how I am as, like, a TV watcher or a movie watcher. For some reason, and don't get me wrong, I wasn't like, oh, man, going to watch this 10 times. Yeah. For some reason, there's something about a music video where I'm like, ah, this is a bit. Okay.

I guess it made it easier for me, but that's... I can't separate it out. I get too ensconced in the reality. Like, I just, I don't, I can't appreciate it just as like standalone performance. It's too lifelike for me. Anyway, I, that, that, I just had trouble connecting the song, but I, I want to just put this out and you can reject it. To me, it feels a little bit like Training Day or Houdini, which is that, It's good and it is reminiscent of things I've heard before.

And it doesn't feel far afield of the category and kind of art that this person makes. It just doesn't have poker face hook in it. It doesn't have born this way hook in it. It just doesn't grab you in the same way that some of the other work does. Is it as simple as that or am I underthinking it? That's right. You know, I will say that a conversation that we've had with B-A-V training season or Houdini when we've talked about that album is that maybe if there hadn't been such a drawn-out time period

between those songs and the album, maybe it would have felt a little bit more exciting because I do want to say that I don't think that either of those songs is like an utter failure. Actually, I think they're both pretty good. They're just maybe a click below what you. you want them to be. And I think you could certainly say that about disease. It's like Lady Gaga has been multiple times in her career, someone who has been a real groundbreaker.

And I don't think she's breaking really any new ground on disease. But I think what I'm feeling, and it's bolstered by what you brought up about the election, just being a real attention suck, is that the song is a little better. than the reception. And I am not ready to like, I'm not ready to give up hope

that this album is going to be really cool. Oh, we're not giving up hope on the album. No way. And I'm not ready to calibrate my feelings about that to the reception for this song. Life is hard enough, okay? Now I got to deal with zombie diseased people coming in. No, fuck no.

I don't put me in this. I got enough to deal with in the real world. And I don't give me fucking werewolves and dudes with chainsaws that I got to worry about too. How did you?

Okay, what about the Sabrina videos? She's killing people. Yeah, it was a little hard for me to watch. Yeah. I will say me too. But that was bloodier. Yeah, it was. There was discomfort and the only,

and I wish you hadn't reminded me of it, to be honest. I'd done a pretty good job. Episode title. Nathan and Nora are. Huge wimps. Yeah. Giant.

Listen, it's okay. It's fine. I just, I got enough to deal with. Don't make me think that it's this hard. Anyway, I am with you that I don't think this is the last chapter of Lady Gaga. I just think there's a few things that are stepping on each other right now. You know, she kind of could have ridden out the die with a smile stuff for a while, even though you and I aren't sure that that's like, you know, the song that people are going to,

I mean, I don't know, you think that's. going to be a wedding song for people? Yeah, because people have bad taste. Okay, well, listen to you. Sorry, that was mean. But like, you got to understand I spend a lot of time these days thinking about things like wedding playlists, so I'm more inclined towards snark. Okay, okay. I don't think that Die with a smile is going to inspire a lot of people. I think it is in a lot of ways a truly beautiful song. I have a hard time thinking about that as a piece of music

that's going to like truly excite someone or teach them something about themselves or like do any of the things that are like really why we get excited about any type of art. But that's not to say that it's bad. It's just

something a little different. Well I just want to also like the Shibuzi song is about to like set records for it's stay at number one. So that is also not a song, but I'd rather have that song in my wedding than Die With a Smile to be honest.

Yeah, me too. I don't think Die With Smile is bad either. You said it right. It is adult contemporary. And to layer then on top of that, the song that is disease, which, by the way, it's not the first time she's had

the lyric disease in song. So, like, I don't know. It just, there is a little bit of muddying of the water. I suspect when you throw in the election, it is what it is. And it would take a lot to deliver a fatal blow to Lady Gaga. So this is not the end of the chapter. And I do think we'll see another single. Yeah. Well, I don't think there's like, it's not that this is going to be, that even with the worst version of this, it would be

the end of Lady Gaga. I just, I guess I feel a little invested in this album cycle. Because it does feel like it's maybe a pivot point in how much she's thinking about herself as, you know, a contemporary pop star versus how much she's thinking about herself as someone who is maybe more invested in movies and doing some of these, you know, standards albums and going a little bit more more in that direction. And I think die with a smile in some ways just because it is that like very croony, you know, you can picture her doing it at a piano wearing her big hat, fits more into that category. And I just, I, I want this to do well because while I like both, I don't want Lady Gaga pop phenomenon to be done. I think she's got more to say.

Are you worried the fiancé is Yoko Ono? Well, he told her to do this, right? So I'm asking. She's given interview answers. He supposedly wrote. He's a writer on this song. He's a writer. And then also was like, you need to go back and do pop,

which I'm quite obviously in line with. But I don't know. Watch this space, I suppose. I don't feel like, I don't feel like we have a Yoko problem. but I'll be paying attention. Yeah. I think the glass half full case is between Dua and Katie Perry, it's been really hard to reenter the chat with Chaparone exploding and Sabrina doing really well

and Charlie XX grabbing a season and an adjective and a color. It's hard to find space in consciousness right now. And we've talked about this before about how Miley seems to be sitting back and taking stock and not throwing herself into the conversation to try to figure out exactly what these wins mean. W-I-N-D-S. The downside, the pessimistic case says there has been some kind of weird generational transfer in 2024 and that audiences are grasping for something. stuff that's new and fresh and uninterested in things that they have seen before or familiar with.

The election not being representative of that. But I do think that Lady Gaga is one of those artists that transcends. And what's been cool about her is the ways in which she's reinvented herself and herself and put herself into everything from Star is Born to singing the songbook with Tony Bennett. So I want to see her back in pop. I don't think it's over. But yeah, as you say, let's watch. because these could be some heavier winds,

heavier tailwinds at our back, pushing us into whatever's next than we understand. And Gaga is a very interesting litmus test for that. Right. Well, in Gaga, in a moment when as excited as I am to see her sort of reinvest in the pop stuff, this doesn't sound like a moment of true reinvention.

It sounds like a return to things. things that we already know. Now, I wouldn't be surprised if the real ultimate test of the album is, does it all feel like that? In which case, I do wonder if what you're saying is right and we should really pay attention to some of those wins and maybe it won't go as well as we might hope. Stop scaring me. I am just not counting her out to like find some reinvention that I don't think is quite as present

on disease as it could have been. And then also zombies. All right, you want to talk about Taylor Swift? Say the word. So something that at one point we were thinking about having conversations out. And then we really wanted to cover the Halsey album. So we never got there. Was her outfit?

No, we're not leading with her outfit. You don't want to tell everybody what I texted you. I can't talk about the dress. I've already insulted probably somebody's first dance. song. And I just everybody should be free to make their own choices in fashion.

And I love Taylor Swift and I think she's a brilliant person. And when we talk about the dress, we specifically mean the one that she wore out to dinner. The Vivian Westwood, the Vivian Westwood with the sort of like sunset color, on gray top and then the stripes

on the bottom was not my preference. Yeah. They're all those like hype account. that are like Taylor Swift looking ravishing. Taylor Swift looks gorgeous in New York City. Like, she's a beautiful woman. She looks so good in clothes. I'm not willing to go that far with this one.

One time I wanted to be like, Taylor Swift wearing Nathan's grandma's dish towels sewn together. I just don't. Yeah. It's a real mystery to me. What do I know? I know nothing and I know she gets a win. I mean, she rocked the outfit

every time she shows up to Arrowhead. So absolute sleigh. What do I know? She gets to wear whatever the fuck she wants. Who cares? That was just one where I was like, what is this? Vivian, that's not on Taylor.

I put that on Vivian Westwood. I don't know if I'm really. She chose to wear it. Who would look good in that dress? It's not a good. Like, I don't think she, I'm not like, oh, she looked awful. I just think it's a weird, I don't like the dress.

I didn't like the shoe choice. I thought the bag was strange. I just was, I think here's, here's why I'm interested in this is because as we've discussed a million times, there are very few accidents in the Taylor Swift universe. And I would say, and we're always reading outfits and where she spends her time and everything she does for little Easter eggs. And then something like that comes along. I'm just like, what am I supposed to take from this?

And I think it plays into the idea that there must be like a messaging component to it because I do have a hard time feeling like she would go into a closet and be like, you know what makes sense as an outfit? This dress with these shoes with this little bag. And Vivian Westwood did the tortured poets. I love Vivian Westwood. Vivian Westwood's amazing. Vivian Westwood did the outfits for the tortured poets section.

of the tour, and she has been wearing a lot of Vivian Westwood lately, and it's, and in sort of strange ways. And so maybe she just liked it and I just don't, and that's fine. But like, Nora, if you and I were friends and you made suits or, like, shirts, I would absolutely wear it once, at least. I'd wear it once. Also, it's like Vivian Westwood makes a lot of clothes, right? Like, you can choose something else. So you feel like, okay, I'd try. trust her. I mean, just let me just, the logistics of Taylor Swift and her wardrobe, she is constantly in a different place. She's in Nashville. She's in New York. She's in London. She's in Kansas City. She's in, in, and she's all over the... Do you think that she's got clothes

sort of packed up at this place? Do you think that she's traveling with lots of luggage all the time on the jet and that, or do you think that clothes get delivered to her? Like, just think legit, the logistics of her having to do that. It's fucking hard. The shoes that she was wearing in those photos when she went out in the city, it's a pair of Aquasura heels that she's worn

for a couple of, like she's had those shoes for, I can't believe I know this. She's had those shoes for over a year. Okay. That's not a new pair of shoes.

You think they've been sitting in the apartment in New York? Fine. The shoes, she's showed up a couple times. We have not seen that dress before. We've not seen that dress before. That dress is also relatively new. You think she's got a coordinator?

on this shit who just like... I'm sure she has coordinators. I believe... So she works with a stylist, I think for red carpet and for like tour stuff. Right. And she obviously has a lot of people

who have... She must have a lot of people who have relationships with the designers and sort of coordinate and facilitate. I think the most famous woman in the world probably has done that. Yes, yes. That's what I'm caveating that those people obviously exist.

To my knowledge, she does not have a... She does not use a personal stylist. But I have... I like that about her. No, I think that's, I love that she doesn't need another human being to be like, yeah, Taylor, do that on the way out. Or no, don't wear that. I mean, for every event. Yeah.

I think, like, I'm, I think it's fine to not have a stylist. I think it's totally fine if you want to work with a stylist. I think some, like, the relationship. Is this you saying you think that left her own devices she has mediocre taste? No, I don't, I actually really don't think that it's a matter of taste. I do think that she tries to communicate a certain, like, it's almost like she's like playing dress-up for people. It's always a lot of look.

Like, it's always a very specific, the thing that you imagine in your head of like, oh, I can wear all of these things that I think are interesting. And then when you're a normal person, which Taylor Swift is not, I will say that quite often when you try to actually put those outfits together, it doesn't work so well. And I think she runs into that sometimes. But I don't, like, I'm not sure that I think I know what Taylor Swift's fashion sense is.

I'm not sure that I think I know what her taste is. I think that she dresses very intentionally in a way that is like giving an audience something very new and maybe sometimes good, maybe sometimes bad. Like, I'm not quite describing accurately how I feel about it because I don't quite know. I don't know. I'll have to come back to this. That's fine. I just want to contextualize my thoughts by saying I am in the basement of my home wearing

sweatpants and a pizza Friday t-shirt. So I have absolutely zero grounds for anything other than I think it's normally, it's normally like, yep, there's she. She is Taylor Slay. Every time she shows up to the Chiefs game, I'm like, wow, she has invented a new pair of boots. Look at this. That was the one time I looked at that thing and I sent it to you. I sent it to you and Kaya and I was like, what?

I'll tell you this. Five hours later when she walked out of that restaurant after hanging out with Zoe Kravitz and whoever else she was with, it seemed like she needed a little bit of help down those stairs, Nora. They were definitely There were steep stairs I mean There were a lot of There were some tabloid

posts about that that were like They had an eight hour dinner Yeah I don't know that we were eating dinner From the moment The restaurant was entered Until the moment she walked out Right

Like there might have been A little partying going on Yeah it seems like there might have been Zoe is newly single She's clearly been a good friend to newly single friends in the past, they might have had a fun night out. It seemed like they did.

I also, I just want to, I don't want to be afraid to express myself. So I'm just going to say it clearly, I couldn't stand that dress. I just don't, like, I'm not here to rag on people's outfits. And Taylor Swift is amazing.

Any discomfort I have is just with that. Yeah. If I am speaking my truth. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's fair. That's fair. But I'm going to assume that you thought

that what she wore to the Chief's game on Sunday was A-plus. And her arrival there was very interesting, wasn't it? There was sort of the extended video of her walking down the ramp and her security freaking out at people in a couple of ways. One is there were photographers.

Can I say one more thing about the clothes? Oh, my God. Yes, please. Because I do think it's really interesting. I thought I was bailing. out. I just wanted you to put the shovel down. I can't help myself. Put down the shovel. I do think it's really, I think it's really interesting because you said, you know, I'm, I can

imagine that I think that the game outfit was amazing. And I think there's like, if you asked me to dress Taylor Swift and to like have her wear things where when she's photographed and I would be like, oh my God, like, I wish I could have that outfit. She looks so amazing. Right. She would look pretty boring. Like, I would think it was really chic and cool, but she would wear a lot of neutral tones and like simple clothing.

And I think what I'm wrestling with a little bit is that I do, or that I'm trying to describe, is that I think she makes a concerted choice to not be. do that because I do think she is like crafting sort of additional images and additional sort of she knows every touch point matters. She knows she's going to be photographed and it's going to be around the world. Yes. Right. Right.

And so I think she's like... Her attention to detail is impeccable and unstoppable. So she's thinking about it all. It all has purpose. You're right. And I do genuinely think that matters more to her than I'm, of course, a little tongue in cheek when I say this. But then me looking at the page six photo and being like, is there a dupe for that sweater because I want to wear it? Like I don't do that with her outfits.

That's not the response that I have to them. Now, she does sometimes choose, you know, she did this with the chief's outfit too. that is a $100,000 Versacee outfit. Damn. But the corset toss is on clearance at Victoria's Secret or something. Right.

That is $100,000 worth of clothes. Yeah, she does a little Cinderella rags to riches and combo of the two sometimes. But if you or I wanted to buy something that Taylor Swift, like there's one, there are little opportunities to do that.

I'm good. I'm good. I got my pizza Friday. I'm good. You're good on the VIII. It's a Friday. Sure, you don't need the... This is my No, It's Becky equivalent. It's the dude version of No, it's Becky. So that's all I'm trying to say is like, you know, I don't...

There are celebrities that I would go to before Taylor Swift for style inspiration. I hope that's not hurtful. I think she's so fucking brilliant and does things that are much more meaningful to me. But I also, it's like an interesting thing to talk about because I just don't think that's the point. I don't think that's what she's trying to do. Right. I just think her itinerant lifestyle probably makes, probably crashes into her attention to detail on this stuff every once in a while. And we also knows that she supports a lot of the designers that she works with. And so who cares? Anyway, every now and then, I think she's allowed to, you know. Yeah, we all, oh, trust me when I say

we all have our business. Get drunk in a suboptimal dress. And that seems to be what happened. I would say... I think that's very fair. Bringing it back to the Kansas City arrival this week. I'm trying to bring you here because, you know, when she walked into that restaurant, there's flashes and there's some shouting and scream. It's the usual sort of paparazzi scene.

This video of her arriving in Kansas City and walking down that ramp was a little bit different, wasn't it? The security was jumpy. And they were loudly admoner. reporters for two things. One was photographers for two reasons. One was they were getting too close to her. And we'll come back to that.

And two was, I think, because she was wearing a short skirt and walking from a high point down a ramp that they were very concerned and they had talked in advance about not having photographers crouching in case they got like a,

you know, an upskirt photo. And so you had, one, the security guys screaming at the, at the photographers. And I mean, like, loudly to back up. She corrected them, and I'm going to let you tell that part of the story. But then, two, as she walked down the ramp, he was yelling, a couple of them were yelling at these guys to stand up. And she actually, if you watch, she's so fucking smart. She actually slowed her gate and, like, paused for a bit and, like, crossed her legs a little

bit until that guy did stand up. because she had been thinking about it so much. Do I have this right as dude who knows nothing about outfits? Yeah, no, totally, totally. I mean, and she is so, like, that video where you can see that she slows down, I was simultaneously like, it just sucks that that's the thing that she has to deal with.

And by the way, Scott and Andrea are behind her. They know that she's going for the shot. So they're trailing her by, I don't know, 20 yards? Yeah. On that ramp so that she can be photographed solo, she's going to give the people what they want, but on some terms that everybody there, including the security guys,

are like, not only am I going to protect her from like a, you know, Lady Gaga zombie that jumps out from the weeds, but I'm also going to, I've also thought through how do we make sure that nobody gets an upskirt picture? Yeah, I mean, the one thing that I didn't,

it couldn't totally tell based on the stories about this was if they were responding, based on just sort of like looking at the angles of everything and being like, oh, we should make sure that everybody is upright because we don't want anything bad to happen here. Or like if there were people on the ground who seemed like that's what they were trying to do.

One of those is... But you've been backstage at NFL games? Like, these are all accredited photographers. Most people know who they are, right? Yeah, I mean, I've been backstage at an NFL game while Taylor Swift was arriving at the stadium. and that shit was locked down. Yeah.

Well, this was locked down. Well, although they are permitting a lot more cameras. Yeah. Than they were at the Super Bowl. So I think, like the Super Bowl, basically the totality or at least vast majority of people who videoed or photographed her entrance were, they were not. just like accredited and credentialed. It was the NFL's own people. And I'm sure, you know, they have some agreement about how they're going to share that

and stuff. They've obviously let a lot more people into the mix for that. What I'm saying is like, I don't quite know if that is a story about her team being really, really savvy and noticing something that could have gone wrong before it did. Or if that is a story about like people being really actively scummy and them sniffing it out. I hope it's the former. I do think it's really funny that she made her security team say, please. They were like, stand back. Stand back. And she was like, stand back, please.

That's just really funny. It was great. That's very charming to me. No, it was. She was having a reaction to the aggressive nature of it. And the same time, that's what they're paid to do. Can't we all remember our manners? Yeah. Which I'm sure if you're Taylor Swift, a lot of the time when people are just like screaming their heads off at you, I think what would go through my head would be, couldn't we all just remember our manners? Okay.

So can then I ask you this? If there are all these extra photographers and, I mean, her box, there's people who are constantly just videoing her because they're basically at waist height in the normal seats. This was a ridiculous football game that the Broncos should have won. and they're kicking a ship shot with no time left that the chiefs somehow figure out finally how to go over that tackle and block after a couple of what appears to be near misses earlier in the game.

The point is this is a huge moment at the end of a football game where the chiefs stay undefeated. Very big thing. Nobody has video of her responding to that. Nobody has the holy shit. Like, can you imagine? how many bad words, there's probably

vodka crayon all over that outfit. And nobody got a shot of it. Well, you know what? This is some conspiracy theory shit that you're hearing from me. What do you tell me? Because, and I'll give you the really, really simple, like, non-conspiratorial answer. It was a big moment in the game.

And contrary to the way that a lot of people like to talk about it, she has not, like, sucked the focus away from these games in any way that approaches the way that like some bros like to claim that she has. But CBS and Fox have a camera trained on her the whole time because they make choices about when to show her and they're not overdoing it for sure. I mean, maybe she was in the bathroom. I don't know. You think she was peeing for the block field goal? I don't know. It's possible. It's crazy. It is crazy that there is no. footage because that would have been the most fun Taylor Swift's real surprise face.

I mean, you know that scene from the Super Bowl when they win and there's just this sea of people and they slow, like there's a bunch of those famous people in the box who just got subsumed by her, right? Or by the whole crowd in the celebration. This couldn't have been far from that. She's not a Leo Chanel fan. Like, I don't know what to tell you. Well, I mean, that was a big miss by the pub.

For somebody who is supposedly always on and all these people are getting paid to capture the footage, somebody, get it. I don't need to see her walking down the ramp for the 900th time. Show me the real shit. Maybe she repositioned herself behind one of the kind of bars and the windows.

I don't know, man. Somebody always gets the angle. They break it down like, you know, like the Argentina kiss. Anyway, I'm done. I just want to make the point that this was a big miss by the general prying public. And on the other hand, I'm happy for Taylor that she got a moment

when nobody had to talk about her fucking dress or the way that she responded and she could just have a natural reaction to a great moment and off she goes. I will say this, Nora, last point on Taylor Swift. She's still working. I mean, she's all over the place. She's in Nashville and then New York.

And she, I know it's her weeks up, but it's not like she's just hold up in Kansas City just waiting. waiting for the next week's game and waiting for the Vancouver and Toronto shows she is busy still what do you think she's doing we're going to find out

I'll tell you what she's not sewing dresses all right she is she probably is she's a knitter she is she does yeah totally she nits things

I'm gonna end it there unless there are any stray Grammy thoughts you've had since we last spoke. No, it's only that I think that the future existence of the Grammys depends on the decision they make about the Beyonce album. Okay. Wow. Yeah. I think, I think I really do.

Because I think if they don't give it to her, they are going to be a cohort of artists who boycott the Grammys Forevermore. On the other hand, I think if. she wins this, there's going to be an undercurrent of people who say this was a lifetime achievement award, not for this album. She got it because, you know, it's an empathy, sympathy vote, whatever it is. And so whichever way this goes, there's going to be a little shaking of the foundation of an institution that has been on shaky ground for years. And as we spoke about last week, Zach, Brian, you know, put aside the week and the news from this.

week. He didn't submit the weekend. Definitely. Arina Grande unfollowed the Grammys. Maybe that was not passive aggressiveness. Let's not read too much into those things. But like, I think there's a lot of artists. I love an Instagram unfollow story. As we said, there's a lot of artists in the hip hop world and country world in particular who feel like this academy is not representative of them. And, you know, Post Malone's like, you gave it to the experimental flute album, but not, you know, so I think the way that this decision comes actually becomes, and we said it, but it is a big deal. And I'm going to be shocked if Beyonce doesn't get it. I think it's going to change the underpinning and the foundation of the institution and the academy if Beyonce doesn't get it. But it also might happen. It's funny because I think

that's all true. And then outside of those dynamics, it feels like one of the most exciting Grammys in recent memory just because we do have this like really exciting crop of newcomers. It feels like a pretty stacked year. It feels like a year where I'm excited about

potential performances and where you know, I think I've heard from people like more people than it feels like usually say things like this saying like oh, I'm excited for the Grammys. I want to watch the Grammys. I'm ready for the Grammys. I'm sort of like invested in this that

this thing that I'm not always invested in, but that is at odds with that dynamic, which also feels very real. Which I guess it's just... It's going to be a fun couple months. Yeah, it's going to be a fun couple months. And if this is the end of the Grammys, they'll go out with a bang. All right. We'll end it there.

This has been every single album. I'm Nora Prince Yati. As always, he's Nathan Hubbard. Thank you so much to Kaia McMullen for producing this episode. And we'll talk to you soon.