Every Single Album - 'You Seem Pretty Sad for a Girl So in Love' | Every Single Album: Olivia Rodrigo

Episode Date: June 13, 2026

Nora and Nathan break down the third studio album from Olivia Rodrigo, 'You Seem Prrety Sad for a Girl So in Love.' They talk about why this record represents such a pivotal moment in her career (1:00), the heavy 80's and 90's rock influences that are present throughout (33:36), and what songs represent evolvement for Rodrigo versus ones that feel like a retrace of her older catalog (59:39). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Wayfair, every style, every home. Oh, and welcome to every single album. I'm Nora Prince-Iatti, and as always, I am joined by my friend Nathan Hubbard, here on a Saturday morning, to somewhat rapid react to the new Olivia Rodriguez album. you seem pretty sad for a girl so in love. Nathan, how are you feeling this morning? Are you feeling sad? Are you feeling in the throes of a dramatic romance?

What's the state of mind? I feel pretty impressed for an old piece of shit. That's your album title? That is how I'm feeling at this early, one of the things we do, Nora. I mean, honestly, funniest part is we were ready to do this yesterday afternoon, Friday afternoon, and we just, we had some travel logistics that got in a way. We had some travel logistics. Yeah, thank you to Delta Airlines. I've gotten at least 10 listens to this album because of the Delta Airlines

delays. So this is easy for us. Usually we're, you know, getting our rapid reaction down. We've had our listens, but this feels easy. It does. And it also, you know, for, Some albums, you take them in, I think, as a collection of individual songs. I always find it interesting to talk about the ones where it comes across so much as the top-to-bottom album, which I think this does. Like, it really tells a story. It really tells a narrative. I will say, I agree with you.

Like, we, I was sitting at LAX for like four hours yesterday, so I had a lot of time to just, like, keep spitting this one on repeat and hang out with it. and that was really fun and also a godsend for a long flight delay. It crossed my mind that I was wondering, like, what conversation we would have and what we would end up talking about. Because I find this album really, really, like, really tight and really well executed. And it, like, makes a lot of sense. And there's a sharpness to it where it was almost like, like my brain smoothed over a little bit and I went yeah wow that's cool like side a is is the falling in

love side B is the falling out and the destruction and the sadness and like it's really well executed and I like the ballads more than I've liked the ballads on on her prior records and that's really really cool I'm such a weirdo about that but we'll come back to that I would love to know I would love to know I have a theory okay do you want to save it not for now Yeah, I want to save it. I just like, it wasn't immediately clear to me where the kind of tension and the execution of this to pull out and talk about was because I think the execution is like really on point. And it almost made me wonder, like, it made me so curious what, like where your mind was drawn as you listened to this. God, where was my mind drawn?

Listen, we listened to the Rosalia album, and I found it to be just this artistic stroke of genius. But I haven't really come back to it. We listened to the Ray album, and I found it to be brilliant and cinematic and fascinating at every turn. And other than the song Nightingale Lane, I haven't really found. myself coming back to it. This is the first album since last summer where I listened all the way through and went, holy shit and had a bit of a freak out over a ton of stuff on this album. And I have been already like, I've been chastised by my daughters already who were like,

I expected this. but I have to be honest and say I didn't totally expect it. And I think it's because out of context, I found Drop Dead to be, all right, I found the cure to be a bit of an earworm. But in context, in the layer of the start to finish and the narrative arc that you talked about, I love this album. I think it is, this was a sneaky pivot point for Olivia Rodrigo, who was anointed as this massive star at a very young age while she was still figuring out who she is.

And by the way, on this album, part of what's fun about it is she's still figuring out who she is. She's 23 for crapping out loud. But this could have been a duo record or something, and that's not to take anything away from duo, but one that was a perfectly serviceable pop album. You know I don't approve of this. But that just sort of serve the purpose of the tour that she's going to do and increasing the size of the catalog and that there'd be maybe two songs that you'd pull out.

And this is like a defining album as an artist for me. And, you know, it is both like, to me, like an achievement. Dan Nigro, I think, is the best producer, pop producer we have in the world at the moment. and matters, like, deeply. And I think there is a real through line between Chapel's record and this one. And the only question for me is, like,

is the world ready for, if not the biggest pop star? Because we know who's the biggest pop star is, but like, can the girl who still is insecure about that blonde girl and operates that way in every interaction publicly? She has that humility and that insecurity. is the accessible sort of girl next door, can she also play the character of one of the

two, three, four biggest pop stars in the world because she delivered the album that is worthy of that. So you brought up this album as a pivot point. Let's talk about what is consistent from the last two records on here and also what isn't. She's traded I would say she's traded some of the 90s and aughts influences for a very clear interest in 80s, New Wet, Wave and Alt Rock. Yeah. I mean, there are like nine different incredibly explicit references to The Cure on this album. Robert Smith is on this album.

Literally singing on this album. She is not, you know, for somebody who said Taylor Swift and Lord were her like premier musical influences, it now sure feels like she gets. in her feelings and loves the way that writers in the 80s would write bright melodic songs about deeply specific heartbreak. Like having your heart kicked in driven over repeatedly. Yeah, which like it comes across to me is just something that she really wanted to do. I don't know that there's any, it doesn't make me want to try to connect the dots and go,

oh, well, like, this is happening in popular music, and therefore that's a cool thing for her to play in tune. But, like, it just seems like this comes from the heart. It just seems like this is stuff that she really, really likes. I think that's right. And I don't know if it's Dan or her or them working together. But, like, sections of every song sound fresh. There are chord changes within these songs

that would never have made it into a Howard Jones song in the 80s. There are songs within these songs. The production treatment of the second verse versus the first verse just keeps you constantly leaned in. There's nothing to get used to in each song. And that to me is why it feels fresh. I mean, how many segments are there to a silly song? Yeah.

I don't know. Four, five, six. I think more. It's like six or seven. I totally agree. agree. And it's like, it starts like very Gracie-esque to me. The second part of that early verse feels like free now. If you catch me on the way, you're a spark in the dark in my clothes will caught a flame. You should feel

how I feel when somebody says your name. And then it moves into like, you know, she's just going like from the B major to the E major. She's got, she's doing that thing with her voice on that song, which I don't know if this is now a criticism of her or if it's just her go-to move or she starts in the lower parts of her register and then progressively goes higher and higher because in that soprano voice in those higher notes like the B

that she hits in silly song is just way stronger than the boulevard without a break is just way stronger than any of her contemporaries can sing. She goes as high is like an E flat on that song, I think. But like, she does that on driver's license.

She does that on the grudge. She does that on silly song, right? And then, like, you know, the maroon bridge that sounds very much like Taylor's maroon on silly song. Like you said, as a whole, yeah. Oh, no. Nobody should. Nobody wants somebody but.

I'm not going to make that many. I think it's its own thing, but it definitely is maroon influence. Like, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Like, it's there. But yes. And yet, like, it doesn't, by the way, this is not called silly song.

Why do I keep saying silly song? It's called Stupid Song. Oh, it's me. I constantly use the word silly. My bad. Well, it's fine. How silly of us. It's called.

stupid song. I love to say that someone's a silly goose, so that's just a really easy word for me. Whatever. It is in fact called stupid song. It is called stupid song. But it is not a stupid song. I think there's, I don't know, maybe it wasn't vampire, but there was some stuff on guts that, like, you could have convinced me were multiple songs sort of like stuck together. This is like consistent all the way through. There's just nothing. It does have parts, but they're, they're very well grooved into one another, such that it feels like a consistent story, both within the songs, but then across the entirety of the album. Like you said, there's like other parts of this song, of this album where like maggots for brains, which is incredible. But like the second part of that song, which has the

what can I do, but think of you, is this great countermel. and if not well integrated would have sound like something totally different, but of course it's not. It works all the way through. Maybe Amy Allen gets credit for that, but it doesn't. There's just so much Olivia songwriting on here. There's choices that they've made that to me just are perfect. I also think she benefits from having sort of set expectations. Like she's, you know, when stupid songs,

starts as a slow piano ballad, a silly song. I'm going to call it silly song now. When it starts as that slow piano ballad, you know, part of, I would feel... Park fake. New York cities never look so blue. My friends are smoking blondes in the bathroom. I would feel differently if it was the eighth song on the record. But it comes right after Drop Dead.

It's at the top. it's the second song. I for 0.0 seconds thought that we were going to stay in that place, right? You kind of know that this is a big part of her medium and her and Dan's medium together. And so you're kind of like primed to be taken on, like to build through all the peaks and valleys of the song. And you're just sort of like geared up to go on that roller coaster. And that's a cool thing about seeing an artist. get, you know, a little bit further along into a discography is because you can kind of riff on

yourself and there's still ways to surprise people. You know, I think it's, you can hear it in the ways that she's traded some of the sonic influences. But there's also an understanding of what makes an Olivia Rodriguez song and Olivia Rodriguez song. And it's a satisfying experience, I think, as a listener, to kind of have an understanding a little bit of where you might go, but not have any idea how they're going to bring you there. And so every time there is just a new kind of chapter in that, like the drums and the bass line kick in and then there's harmonies that kick in and it just gets bigger and more intense.

A lot of cool vocal layering in this record from start to finish. Yeah. I mean, I'll say this. Like, the context matters. I didn't love drop dead. when it came out. Which I quite liked. Yeah, which is cool.

It's not that I didn't like it. It's just that I didn't love it. I just didn't find myself coming back to it. That's sort of the judgment that I make. But in context, I think it's a parody. I think she's making fun of herself. And the silliness and the feelings that come with that big crush,

that's where on the second verse, she's doing the talk singing. That, is a parallel to what she does in expectations and has a bit of hot to go in it. So I hit the New Year like a single girl at a Vegas bar. Rock in my mini dress with a vodka crann and open heart. What's it take to get your number? The Pisces and the Gemini is another example of where there's a second song, right, within the song.

And that part, I like the Pisces and a Gemini part. Like that, that to me was the most compelling. It just didn't feel like as a standalone single that that part became the dance party sort of elevated thing. What do I know? But in context now, I enjoy it a lot more because she comes out of the gate so hot, right? And by the end of the record, she's slowly fading away, literally into the dark singing, why did I try it all? The memories go dark as there's literally the fade and the music goes dark. So it has this wonderful narrative arc that it fits in well.

And then as much as I liked The Cure as a standalone song, it's crazy in context with Purple, which I think I'm going to tell you is my favorite song on the album. Okay, you and I have never aligned on an Olivia Rodriguez album before, and I think we're going to do it today. Yeah, I mean, Can we just talk about her before we dive into the things? Because I am, you know, it's been said before, but like I was a fly on the wall at an S&L after party.

And it was before she hosted, but she showed up. Oh, I was going to bring this up too. She made her way to learn Michael's table and sat there for, I don't know, 30 to 45 minutes, I think. It's not like I was, had a time clock on it. But the most notable thing about that night, and I mean, I think that probably resulted in the double hosting, right? But when you see her live, she doesn't carry this aura. Like, she's diminutive in stature, right?

She's not, like, massive. She doesn't stand out in a room full of people the way that, like, like Taylor is tall and you see Taylor in a room. You're like, holy shit, that's Taylor Swift. You and I were in a studio with Miley Cyrus. Miley Cyrus not tall. She is diminutive in stature. And there's no way that I'm ever going to be able to say that properly.

But that's how I think about the word for her. I need you to say Christina Aguilera, diminutive in stature. No chance that I can say those things. No chance I can say any of those words. But I can say this, which is that Miley Cyrus, you were like, that is a famous person. When she walked in the room, it was like there was like a sonic boom that came over us. Right? And you could just tell, she's not that well.

Hey, when you see her live, she's just there. Olivia will go do things in ballet flats and without full glam. Right. Part of what we're talking about is that Taylor's Lyft is probably, Taylor's at least 5'10. And when was the last time you saw her in anything less than like a four-inch heel? Yeah. I mean, that's right.

And I think that gets back to what I said at the beginning, which is like, the right comp for her is probably Gracie Abrams. They're not in competition, but in terms of girl next door, like she sort of shuns the character play. Yeah, although, I'll be honest, I don't know the last time that we saw Gracie out and about in any, like, there's nothing wrong with either one of these choices. It's just like, I do think that Olivia,

she walks among us in a slightly different way sometimes than some of her pop. peers. Fair enough. I mean, I think some, Gracie's Insta where she's, you know, clowning around with Paul Meskell wearing the Red Sox hat feels pretty, you know, but, but Olivia, and I think that, that presence, though, too, is she's done the fan show and she did the two-night stay on Kimmel and she's done some interviews, there is this still, the insecurity that she sings about still radiates a little bit. And what I'm saying is like when I saw her in that room, you know, she didn't stand out in part to your point, which is that she wasn't trying to stand out. But I also think like, you know, if my favorite line on this album is, you know, I don't think my future husband is at this bar. It's in Silver Lake.

Like that's kind of how she operates. She's in the room with a drink, just kind of in the corner, not always in the corner, but just like amongst friends, like looking around and she just doesn't stand out. And so it's so it, but this album has aura. And this, like her fandom and popularity and the sort of impact of her work has aura. So there's just this interesting sort of juxtaposition between her diminutive stature and her outsized impact of the art that she's creating. I don't think I find her as. I guess subtle or quiet in the way that she moves through the world.

As you do know, she doesn't totally strike me that way. But the reason that I was thinking about that experience that you had too is because there's a lyric on this album that's like I went to a party but just on principle. And it made me think of that is like the conversation that we had about Olivia Rodrigo going out to this big party in New York City that everybody was talking about and photographing and not looking like she was there for the same reasons as everybody else, i.e., to party or to see and be seen. No. She knew that she had this album in the canon, and she went to sit next to Lauren to get the double hosting job. Well, and or, right? She's on a mission. She's on a mission. You do have those moments

where you say, God, I don't want to go, but I should go. just going to make myself go. But that was, I'm sure the discussion, just go find Lauren, sit next to him. That's what it'll do, right? Just go say hi, you know, kiss the ring, so to speak, and that will put this over the top and we'll lock it in for the dates that we want.

I'm sure that management called her and said that, and she was like, dude, all right, it doesn't have anything to do with her feelings about Lauren. I'm sure she's super friendly, but to your point, like she's like, oh, I got to go. It doesn't start until 1.30 or 2. like, all right, fine, I'll go do this. Great. Well, and for someone who writes frequently about having trouble getting out of bed

and really liking to stay in bed and rot in bed, maybe that's a particularly big ask. Yeah, I think if there's one criticism of Olivia for me, and it is this thread, it's that I think she still has some growing to do on the live presentation. It looks like the live show was good. but she does again sort of still radiate that when I think about Did you watch her Kimmel? Yeah. And I thought it was awesome.

But she's sitting there at the piano on Stupid Song and she doesn't attract, you know, her movement. Her, like Charlie is like a visual thing. Lord is now a visual thing. Taylor is a visual thing. Chapel is definitely a visual thing. I don't know what a lit. I mean, she's not a dancer per se. She, she again is connecting with the fan base.

That's just an area where she still has growth, which I think is incredible. Like she's, of course she's not a finished project. She's 23. Like, she's still got, you know, multiple arena tours to do ahead of her on this and she's going to continue to grow and get better. But she's not a,

she's not a force live the way that, a Madonna would be the way that Gaga is. But like, that's common. And to just say the duo reference, maybe it's the go-girl, go-on girl, give us nothing. She's far ahead of where Duo was. And we saw Duo get up that learning curve, right?

When we first saw Gracie open for the Erez tour, it was not particularly impressive. And by the end of the Eres tour, when Gracie was opening, it was extremely impressive. And she found herself and her movements and locked it in. So I think Olivia's, good live. It's just not like, oh my God, she puts on an amazing, unbelievable show where you just

can't take your eyes off her. That's all room for improvement. And I think what's amazing about this album is that it gives her a whole bunch of material to integrate into the live and into the movement piece that I'm just excited to watch her development. Because again, this album could have gone the other way. This could have been a meh album. But I think the core of her fan base expected this. They believe and understand her to be great. Well, part of your point about the live stuff is, I think, related to

her partnership with Dan Nigro. Because the production on these songs and the work that they do together in the studio is one of the most special things happening in pop music right now. translating that to Jimmy Kimball is hard, right? Like it's hard to figure out how to make the songs build and pop and morph and shift and have all of those little, the little moments where you feel the roller coaster going down the section and your heart flutters.

How to make that happen musically on a live stage as opposed to in the studio, in the place where one of of the best producers working, is working with you a person who he thinks is incredibly special and loves working with and, you know, for those two to, is the right place for those two to just get in their bag together. And so I wonder if that's a little bit of a piece of it too. I think that's interesting. It's the right canvas for a live show, though, right? You just, there's going to be a lot of motion in the live show to reflect the motion in the songs. Well, this is like one of the most interesting, this is her most interesting album to, to put on live. And obviously when she tours it, she's not just going to sing these songs.

I'm sure she will do some version of driver's license, some version of getting back. Yeah, for sure. But this is, I mean, it's a story. She could do a version of what Lily Allen is doing. Right. With this album, with this 50 minutes of music and just go front to back and tell the story and stage it. By the way, Harry, Olivia,

yes, deliver us more than 36 minutes on an album. Thank you. It's wonderful. You can do this and it's not too much. More than 36, but less than two hours. Less than two hours. Please. If you want us to, if you want us to deliver the rapid reactions, it has to be less than two hours, but it's there. I don't know. I mean, were you, I'm actually, my reaction, the thing that I'm thinking about most right now is that my reaction to the way that you received this, the way that you articulated it, was that you thought it was good and, you know, sort of flawless in the execution. Were you moved by this?

Well, so that's, that's a really interesting. That is kind of the question that is most front of mind for me right now, probably having listened through. maybe seven times-ish and then gone back to individual songs. This is, I really, I quite like this album. I think it is really strong. I think I think it's her best album. Yeah, I do too. But I liked it more the first time I listened to it than the seventh time I listened to it.

Because the first time I listened to it, I think I was struck by the cohesion of it. there isn't a single song I know the one that I could make the argument for but in reality there's not a single song on this album that takes me out of it. To me there's very little and maybe even no wasted space you just feel the effort in each one of the songs you feel in all of those little segment parts

just the work and the care and the thought which Dan posted some photos and the album cover on Instagram and was saying, you know, it's out now, go listen to it. Congratulations to Olivia. And what he spent his caption on writing was about how she pushes and about how they push together and go, this little chunk can be better.

This can be more interesting. This could be different. And I think that work and that process really, really, really comes through. I want to hear, like, not quite. quite yet, but I'm really jonesing to hear your theory about the ballads because in the past, sometimes those have been the songs that have taken me out of it and they really, really don't hear.

I'm such a weirdo. All of that said, what do I think Olivia Rodriguez's superpower is? I think she is, of all of the pop stars currently working, she's the one where her best songs should make you feel like your insides are exploding. Good and bad. Like, I like the album title. She will never have a better album title than guts. Yeah.

Because that is what she does. She should, whether it is like gut wrenching or making you feel like you're made out of glitter that's just exploding into a bagillion pieces, like that is what an amazing Olivia Rodrigo song, does, I think there are fewer moments on this album than the first two that truly get there. You know, the album was circulated far and wide amongst the traditional music critic press. And it has been a long time since I've seen almost everybody, including pitchfork lineup, with extraordinarily positive reviews for this album.

8.2, 8.3? 3, yeah. So I came into this with some skepticism to be like, I think our job is to red team this and to poke some holes in it. And I just,

for me, the album has actually worked in the opposite way it has for you, as I have listened to it more and more, I've found and fallen in love with the nuance

and the small subtleties. I wasn't really into less when I heard it the first time it sounded like something that would get played at the Carlisle Hotel at Bumbleman's Bar, right? Wow! Loving me means letting go and wishing me the baby. Is this the first time that I've liked a piano ballad more than you?

Well, I think probably in the aggregate, but what I fell in love with on that song, the more that I listened to it, is what a showcase it is for her voice and the way that she injects grit and percussive rasp or whisper. And just the ways in which you can hear the damper pedal on that song being pushed down. Just like on Honeybee, you can hear the cricket on the vocal that snuck into the studio.

Like there's all these little fun, small things that in the aggregate you discover about these songs within the songs. And the way that I usually take in a song is, okay, I'm focused. I'm in the first verse and here we're in the chorus. Okay, now I think I have a general sense for this song. Let me hear you run it back and see if it really embeds itself into heart or head or ear. In these songs, you have to just stay on the edge because they're introducing new things at every moment of the song. and whether it's a bridge or a back coda, as you said, there's five or six parts to stupid song.

Do you want to keep talking about less, or should we talk about purple? Because I think it's both of our favorite song. Yeah, I mean, traditionally in our structure, we talk about what's going to be the biggest song, the biggest hit. And I don't know. I mean, I think it's the cure.

Well, right. So Drop Dead is technically still, you know, in the lead, obviously with a big runway. But as you pointed out the last time that we spoke earlier this week, the cure is, the cure is gaining ground pretty quickly. I think it's going to be the cure. But stupid song just got released. And maggots for brains is a great song. I love maggots for brains. I don't know. I mean, I don't fault them for Drop Dead as a first single. I would have liked to have seen one of these others that we're talking about probably as the intro point. But it's fine. It was a table setter.

I get why they did it. I think because of the timing, it's going to end up being the cure as the biggest song. But the best song is what you wanted to talk about. And to me, the best song in the album is purple. Is purple. Hang tight on that, though. I actually do think it'll be a stupid song. you think that's going to be

I think stupid song is going to be the one that like that people spend the most time over the next you know over the summer and in the next few months I think that's the one that like

it's also the one that anecdotally I'm sort of seeing stupid silly song seeing people post Instagram and bring up online like I I wonder if they didn't choose it

because it is to me kind of textbook for her in the way that it does have those sort of component parts in the building. It's not driver's license or vampire, but it has some of the stitching that both of those songs do in the building. And so maybe that made them shy away

and want to kind of like, because this is a, this album wasn't necessarily marketed as like, here's the pivot point, but I agree with you that it pretty successfully is. And so maybe there's a desire to have the, roll out, not quite follow the same patterns. But yeah, I, I think it's stupid song. I think stupid song by August is going to be the biggest. Well, it's a great showcase for her voice. It has some of her usual tricks. As we talked about, starting the lower part of that register, keep building

it, yeah, it's a, it is, it would not surprise me. But I, that's why I say I think it's hard to, to sort of put a finger on it because there's a chance that a few of these songs really go. But it has some of those moments where what I'm talking about when I say that I think her superpower is being able to write these just musical explosions. Like when she does the car speeding down the boulevard without a break, like there's something in you that hears that and just kind of feels the rush of it. Yeah. And that, I don't think you can have a successful Olivia Rodriguez album that doesn't cause that reaction.

And if I think about the moments on this album that do that, it's that. It's the wide I try at all. Yeah. At the end of cigarette smoke. At the end of cigarette smoke, I think that's incredibly affecting. And, you know, there are... What can I do but think of you at the end of Magus for Brains does it for me, too? Yeah.

Yeah. And then there are other... There are other... There are other moments that kind of do that, but it's a little bit more subtle. And it's like, I think that's what I'm sort of sorting through is that I think... I don't think of her magic as being a magic of subtlety. And I think this album excels in its subtler moments. And I think what I will do with this music over the coming weeks and months to, like, figure out where it really rates for me is kind of try to square those things.

But purple is the fucking shit. And is certainly the most subtle Olivia Rodriguez song. that I've ever, like, wanted to do cartwheels about. Yeah. That is a good way to say it. I mean, it starts with what is almost the cold play fix-you organ. And that gets you in the frame of mind for, whoa, this is one. But it's the pivot point for the album, right?

Because up into here, she's in this relationship and in the sort of, it starts with the crush, and then it moves into all of the, sort of successive parts of relationship. This is the last song of what I would call Side A. Yeah, and in it, you know, sort of at the end, it's melt with you till it just feels sad. The very last line. Melt with you till it just feel sad.

And then that note sort of bends lower, and from there you're off to the cure, which is an awakening of sorts, right? but there's this, I don't know, there's this like beautiful mix of dissonance. Like purple being her color, the theme, the sort of brand, right, of her. But unpacking that a bit from it just being like a color

that's about all her stuff to thinking about what is actually behind purple, which is this mix of blue and red and the sort of- And to making that a testament of like thinking that you're experiencing commitment and togetherness and connection and then at the very last second realizing that you're actually losing a part of yourself in a dynamic that's not quite right. You know, talk about subtle,

that is a really, that's a lot of concepts to get into this one song that I think might have been written originally without some of that. perspective. And without that little twist at the end. So I want to hear that from you because there was this general narrative that she was about to put out the record and then broke up and went back and redid stuff. Is this one of those places where you think that happened? I think so. I mean, she did the podcast interview with The New York Times and she talked about how they did go back.

and she used the word creepy. She said they went back and made some of the songs more, I'm paraphrasing, but it was, you know, aware of those elements of where the relationship would ultimately go. But she said that they made them more sad and more, and she did use this word creepy. And where that tone,

where at the very end it goes, melt with you till it all turns black, melt with you till it just feels sad and then that tone as you said it drops that sounds pretty creepy to meet like that's a really good descriptor of that moment so i'm i'm guessing but i bet there's this beautiful song that ingrid michelson wrote called wonderful unknown that i sense in this song and they both have this way of creating this musical palette against the same which there are words that when you really dive into them are deeply sad, but it's a very colored musical palette. And so again, the irony of using, of the song being called purple,

there's just something about it that there's almost some like postal service shit. I don't know. It is, um, this is a special song. And it becomes even more special because of the way, the place that it sits in the album. Well, right, and look, I don't think she's going to do this, but if she did stage the, you seem pretty sad for a girl so in love musical as a live performance, right?

You can visualize the end of that song hitting that tense note and then the curtain dropping, right? Like, it's really affecting. Well, I also think, though, that we're in agreement on purple being the best, but I think there's three or four others that people might claim to be their favorite. And this becomes this moment of a lone solitude reckoning about a relationship that then bleeds into the next song, which is the cure that I think a lot of people will say is their favorite. the cure has the sort of unavoidable parallels to foo fighters ever long, right?

That hushed vocal is super cool at the beginning. Then it moves into the chorus and it becomes a little bit more like disarm from the smashing pumpkins. But, you know, those are both, by the way, 90s rock, not 80s rock. The fact that the driver's license girl is the protector of 80s and 90s rock is not something I had on my bingo card, but here we are. I think it, you know, that song, Cure builds just like some of her other most sort of anthemic songs, builds, you've got the snare rolls. Then in come the strings, right? But in context, it's a bigger song. It is this moment of awakening, I think, where she understands that the relationship is not going to work.

And so then at the end, there's the section where it's just the strings playing out. And that, to me, feels like a funeral. in context. And on its own, again, as a single, it was beautiful. But hearing those strings separately, now understanding the run of show, as it were, coming after Purple, there's a, again, a really deep sadness to the end of the cure that I didn't get when the song wasn't in the flow of the album. Yeah, those two back-to-back are pretty special. And then I think, you know, I think some people will claim begged as their favorite. Really?

Yeah. Nothing's quite enough when I know that to get it, I beg. See, now you're going to make me go into the ballad conversation. I'm not those people. I'm not those people, but I think that some people will. I would have said stupid, silly song and maggots for brains. I think some people are going to go crazy for maggots for brains. Me too.

Me too. I would say, like, I think purple is my favorite song and then I think Stupid Silly song is next. And then I think I like Drop Dead. You know, you and I diverge. But talk to me about the ballads. I need to hear your ballad thing.

Look, here's my, I liked her other ballads. And I think this is probably just like self-justification. But I think the reason that people have said, oh, she hasn't made great ballads, is because driver's license is the best ballad and that anything compared to it comes up short. And so it like suffers from its greatness. I think the ballads on here, I agree.

I think Begged is beautiful. Well, also Driver's License is a half ballad. Okay, fair. But she goes high on the chorus and begged in a way that just kind of opens your eyes like the start of stupid song in the same way. The backing vocals, this to me feels, I would be really interested to have been a fly on the wall

to see how they construct these and whether it's a partnership, whether Dan happens to be a great vocal producer, but he uses her voice or she uses her voice, whoever is making these choices, they are using her voice in a really fascinating way. I mean, they're using it as an instrument and they're adding color and texture

and even in some cases context, there are little phrases that get sung, in the background that are not part of the of the lyrical palette on that song, on that song it is all her. And yet I still cling to hope like snow on that. On some of these, there's a funny, like,

there's a funny, and I think it's Dan's voice, but there's a funny tendency for some of the harmonies and some backing vocals to be this like chorus of men who like I just sort of imagine all being like all wearing matching outfits somehow. 25 Conan Grace. Like that's kind of what it feels like the chorus of Conan's. There are definitely choruses of Conan's.

And I think the reason, the main reason that I think that that will be some people's favorite song is I do think that when there are, when it's a breakup album, I think people have a certain expectation of a little bit of bloodletting. And, you know, one of the things that I think is really interesting about less and really effective about that song. And I get what you're saying about the, it's a little trite in some ways. But I do think the idea of kind of the frustration of a really respectful breakup. Watch me cry a minute more.

So you do the noble thing and open up the door. Where you don't have something, you know, it's so much easier to be angry than it is to be sad. And the denial of that just like trying to figure out, okay, where do all these feelings go? If I don't really have the right to be like, fuck you. Yeah. I think she writes about that pretty effectively. and I think that's a hard thing to write about and I found it really interesting on Les.

But I think Beggd is the one moment where she's kind of like, I was down on my hands and knees trying to get a crumb of attention and that emotional register. I think that there are some people who just want to pick that out of an album and I think that makes sense

and I think she's quite good at it and her own harmonies are gorgeous and so I think it's not one of my absolute favorite songs, but I do think that it's one that will stand out to some people. Begged and less have, they're less of those developed operatic kind of songs that, you know, there's not a vampire,

there's not a stupid song, there's not a maggots for brains. They're smaller. And it suggests that they were treated that way because they're, you know, I suspect there was some urgency to get this thing out. And you just wonder if those were like, sit down at the piano

circumstances of this whole album have changed and she plays them through and they write them fairly quickly. I wouldn't be surprised if these things fell out a little bit faster than some of the others that probably had to be developed and there's just less nuance and subtlety to all of this and that's totally fine.

The thing I love about less is... Yeah, well, Begged also, Begged and Honeybee are the only two songs that she wrote entirely by herself. Right. So there you have it. But less for me is about the lyrical stuff, right? Like, you've seen me truly happy so you know right now I'm not.

Like that's such a mouthful that is an Olivia line. But you've seen me truly happy so you know right now I'm not. Right, where it sort of goes over some sort of subtle, you know, four-four time signature where she just crams in a lot of stuff crying on the curb at LAX, right? What happened when they went to Big Sur? I'm thinking about her and Lewis going to wherever she went, the resort in Big Sur and what happened there. But there's a lot of trauma dumping almost in that song.

Well, right. And I think that's sort of what I'm talking about in terms of that being kind of a note to hit if this is the type of album. Because you're talking about the lyrics, can we talk about Amy Allen a little bit? I mean, I think, look, if we're talking about most important collaborator, I think Dan has that locked up. These two are pretty symbiotic, and it's really, really cool, but I think we've covered that.

Yes, Amy Allen is on maggots for brains. She is also on purple and less and expectations, and then she was on Drop Dead as well. Yeah. And something that I thought was interesting was that there are two songs near the top, in the first half of the album, and its stupid silly song and Honeybee, where back to back she makes different references to a kind of love-induced writer's block.

It's too hard to describe this in a way that feels all this. Like the whole sort of conceit of stupid song is I love you more than any stupid song could ever say. Like I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't figure out how to express the intensity of these feelings.

And Honeybeaten line is it's too hard to describe this in a way that feels honest. Yeah. And that sounds like she's being pushed by the writers and the producer to like, just be honest. Just be honest. Just say right, right, right, what you know, say how you feel. And she's going, ah, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. It's like she's got synesthesia or something.

Which is an honesty in and of itself, right? But at the end of the day, the job is to figure out how to put it into words. And so I, you know, I'm trying a lot of conclusions, and I think the lyrical writing on this album is really strong, and therefore I don't think that she was actually having trouble. But it just made me think about, you know, Amy may be coming in and trying to go on that journey with her a little bit and figure it out.

I mean, the spots where I feel like I hear her the most are the jokes. I just think of Amy Allen as a really funny songwriter, and in particular when it comes to kind of romantic foibles, like you brought up the talky part of expectations where she says, don't think my husband's at this bar in Silver Lake, but it's right after... Talking about the vodka crayon stuff. She's going on as the single...

Rocking my mini dress with a vodka crayon and an open heart made me laugh out loud. with the rod to crayon and open heart. It's terrific. It's so funny. It's terrific and it's so funny. Well, and that's why I think, I mean, on expectations, I want to see that mashed. Like, we need a DJ to put that together with Hot to Go

because that second chorus where she speaks singing sounds a lot like, what's it take to get your number? What's it take to bring you home from Hot to Go? And again, I think there's a little bit of shade of that in, in the part of Drop Dead where she's doing that too. But yeah, I, there are two songs on this

that are just like tour to forces of 80s music. And I think that Amy Allen has something to say about it because Amy's got that just deeply rooted sense for 80s melody. Maggats for Brains is, like it starts with

pictures of you by the cure. That is another. Robert Smith tribute, that guitar, just we'll put him side by side and you will hear. Like that is what she is not lifting, but, you know, referencing and paying an homage to. Then there's the, what can I do? And she goes high at the end of do. And that is very much aha take on me, like at the end of that, right? And then at the very end of the song, they make a little space for,

the electronic keyboard piano thing, which you can find references across a ton of 80s music, the thing that jumped out for me was like faithfully by journey. But I love the way that they go from phase to phase on that song. And then expectations, like,

it totally starts like a Devo song, right? This is like a new wave. It's like, whip it all over again, except it's about being on Raya. And we need it an all-time. At this point, we need like a, here's what it's like to be on Raya playlist. Because artist after artist has tried this shit. Yeah, it would be pretty easy to fill it up.

It's like John Mayer was definitely the pioneer, the first guy to get himself on Raya and be like, I don't know if I want to be here or if it's great or what. And now a ton of other artists. Like, imagine swiping through and there's Olivia. Rodrigo and you're like, you know, mid-tier software engineer at a SaaS firm in San Francisco. I think that's an experience that people are having. What's the ratio of likes to, I mean, when does she, anyway, whatever. It's terrific. Yeah, it's, it's really good stuff. Here's one that I was curious how it hit you.

You plus me equals heart. I think it's one of the, I mean, look, it, it, um, felt, like a Sunday's song to me. Like it sounds, here's where the story ends, but I think it's better. There's a little bit of Liz Fair in this song for me. Carve my name into the car seat leather.

I loved. And when I got through that song, I was like, I just sort of retroactively looked back and I was like, we are five songs in and this album kicks ass. Like, I was like,

when am I going to get a song I don't like? Because I, I think the songwriting here is terrific. Yeah. That was one that I also felt the cure influence pretty strongly on that song. Just the way that, just the instrumentation on the way that it begins has that kind of like... Well, I mean, I was just going to say, you know where I felt the most cure influence, though? What's wrong with me?

When she's saying can't and Robert Smith is saying Kant. I mean, they really are soulmates in this way. Like they write with this emotional specificity about heartbreak, you know, in somewhat sort of bright melodic ways. In two people who really feel their feelings. I guess I might have had slightly higher expectations for their collab. Like, I think I like the song. I think it's fine. It doesn't, like, I don't know.

It's not, you know, exile, where it's like, yes, we finally got Taylor with her soulmate in Boni Vare. And boy, did they deliver a chorus that is worthy of the two of them. This one feels like a nice collab. And I'm glad it's here. It's not something that I think I would cut, but it's, you know, it's of the songs that I'll go back to. I like it in the flow of the album, but I don't know that I'd go back to this a ton. What about you? My favorite thing about it is just the concept of it, because as you said, I do feel that they are really, they are really kind of twins in the way that they seem to feel and process feeling very intensely.

And those two people kind of, I just imagine them literally having the conversation and being like, what's wrong with me? Yeah. Why do we have to be like this? and I find I just, that's very charming to me and I do really like the little moments where their accents

conflict. It's cute all of our like pop stars like being claimed by old rockers and old pop stars, right? Yeah, everyone's come around. This is a way in which it really is not the 90s. Like the pop girls

do not have any trouble getting the cosines and getting the acceptance from these people. And I think that's really wonderful to see. They have trouble meeting normies. What would you cut? This is a very hard question.

Yeah, this was hard for me. Actually, that's not true. I have a fairly easy answer to this, but it's only if forced. Okay. And what is your answer? My way? Yeah, it's my way. That's her version of better than revenge.

Well, right, but she's not Taylor Swift. And I don't really buy, like, and this is in some ways a real testament to her. I don't buy Olivia as like vengeful mean girl. I spend that entire song, I don't mind the song musically. I just spend the whole thing kind of chuckling to myself being like, yeah, right. You would like somehow find common ground with this girl. you would like somehow... You think she's too sweet?

I think she's too empathetic. It's not that I think that she's a pushover. I just, I think that she is too empathetic. I think she would find a way to put herself in this person's shoes and establish a real grace because of that. And obviously like everyone is capable of anger and pettiness. And it sounds from some of the lyrics that maybe it's entirely justified. I just like, that is my, that's my built-up assumption of Olivia Rodrigo, and therefore it stops me in my tracks for the song. I get it.

I mean, look, there is no smallest man who ever lived on this album. She does not, you know, tear the shit out of Louis Partridge on this album. She just doesn't. And the closest that we get is this sort of foe, you know, blaming of the other woman, which says to me, to your point, like, vitriol is not her thing. Even when it, because even when it has been, like, okay, where has she really given it to someone? I think Bloodsucker Fame fucker? Yeah, that's tough.

Sucker, Fame fucker, bleeding me dry. I think she knows when someone really deserves it. But I don't think she can, I think she can be vengeful, but I actually don't really think that she's great at pettiness. The sort of the, you know, it's the thing that we always talk about with Taylor

that kind of likens her to the great athletes, where any slight real or perceived can become this massive foil. I don't think Olivia does that. I mean, did you see Taylor's songwriter Hall of Fame speech Yes

You want to talk about that next week I know we can talk about it now Let's talk about it next week Like Yeah we can talk about it I mean we can talk about it now and whatever But to your point Like she is using that moment

Correct To settle some scores That have been settled 40 times Time's over. You just came from the Knicks game in which you were sitting court side and your enemy, Scooter Braun, is behind you, multiple seats. Like, you won. Look at you.

You won. Look, Taylor's, a part of Taylor's greatness is that she can't, she can't accept that. She can't live that truth. No. Part of Olivia's beauty, I think is that she approaches those things a little differently. in the case of this particular song, I just, I'm not sure I find her totally convincing relishing this girl's demise.

Yeah. We'll talk more about the songwriter stuff on the next one. Totally. Of course. Of course, of course. Yeah, but it's hard to figure out what to cut, but I think I'm with you that that's the one. I mean, I think the album could survive without less.

Yeah. In terms of songs I don't. like as much, that's probably it. But I'm with you that I think the album, actually, let me put another way. I actually think the album could exist without my way. I think in terms of songs I don't like as much, it's probably less because it just feels like the Carlisle piano thing. But you need less in the album. Yeah. It couldn't survive without less. Yeah, you could survive with my way. Yeah, you can't get the whole story and you can get the whole story without my way. Because of all, all of the language and words on,

um, on less. And then yeah, I mean, I don't know. She, she needs a guy with a real job, I guess.

I mean, I think probably the only song we haven't talked about is cigarette smoke, which is five and a half minutes. And it feels almost like the start of the scientist. I do think there's some little subtle cold play stuff in, sure. In her brain for this. Back to the star.

But some of those layered vocals to me sounded a bit like, almost like Harry on Cherry. I just miss your accent and your friends. Did you know I still talk to them? Which, by the way, I still think is the best Harry-style song. I love Cherry so much. I went back and listened to it. Yeah, I listened to it when I, because I was just trying to place some of the way in which they layer her vocals and use it as almost an instrument.

And so that felt, but also, like, there's a lot of lyrical repetition on cigarette smoke from the rest of the album. There's reference to begging. There's reference, she uses honeybee again. Honeybee, yep.

Tell me something honest. Like, so there is this, like, encapsulation summary to cigarette smoke that I think, certainly, I mean, for, it's five and a half minutes for crying out loud.

So, but it doesn't feel too long like a very powerful bridge and then as we talked about like I just love that slow fade as the memories go dark all the way out it's a good one

but you need that album you need that because it is the it's the final act in the play I also the sort of the wail of wide I try it all to me is one of the most piercing moments on the album 100%

you talk talked about this album as a pivot point. When we go forward, what direction does that pivot face her in? I just, I take the scolding of my daughters seriously. They expect her to be great. They didn't care was this going to be a rock album or a pop album. And I think increasingly, Olivia actually has separated herself from the showy pop stuff. She's not she's not Charlie with the I'm banging I'm really banging my head in the underground cool kid culture she is not chapel with the showy you know explosive stuff even though they have a lot of DNA in common through producer she's got her own lane and and she's going to bring she's going

to bring the sort of rock with her and I think at this point she's told us the way that she constructs songs and that they're going to ultimately be somewhat genre agnostic and I'm not even convinced that when it's all said and done, we're going to think of her as a pop star as much as we might think of her as like a pop rock star. Yeah. I think there's... Yeah, no, I think that from a musical perspective, I think that is absolutely right. I do think that pop standum is such a potent feature of contemporary popular culture.

and because her fans fit that description and function in that way, I think she will kind of always be a pop star because of that, but the music, your point is incredibly well taken. I think, you know, the thing that... This is someone whose debut album was a runaway success, right?

And was... And, you know, she wasn't... She had been on Disney, and she had been working and she had been establishing herself and making music and performing. So it's not as though that was her...

It's not like a Justin Bieber thing where she's plucked out of nowhere and then all of a sudden is an overnight sensation. But her first album was a runaway success. Then maybe, you know, your mileage may vary in terms of if guts was as successful as sour,

but hers, she didn't have a... I think it got run over by the pop explosion of 2024, right? I think that was part of it, but I also don't think that you can say that Olivia Rodriguez had a sophomore slump, right? Like, that was a big record with songs that people remember. The tour was crazy and a big deal.

And then now this is incredibly strong. it builds on expectations set up about what an Olivia Rodriguez song is and should be based on the first two, but it also really takes her to some new places. And so this is someone who's first, and I think it's going to be, I think it's going to be part of culture this summer. I think it's, you know, I'm curious to see if I'm right and that stupid silly song does kind of take off in a way? It's number one in the top 20 on global Spotify

and 10 million streams versus number two is the cure at 7.29. So of course it's being pushed as the single, so it's probably made its way into a bunch of new music playlists and that kind of shit, which always boost it. But like, that's what people are gravitating to. I mean, it's doing two X the streams of purple at the moment. Yeah. And so...

You all got to go listen to Purple. Stop fucking around. I get it, though. Like, I get that there are... Stupid Song is awesome. Yeah. And there are situations in which I would rather put that on than put Purple on

because the emotions of it just have a different valence. Yeah. It's not time for fix you. It's not time for fix you right now. Sometimes it's not time for fix you, you know? And we all need to remember that.

But where that puts her is three albums. the entirety of her discography, having really mattered, really made an impact, having brought herself, like having successfully established herself and then taken a step away from the initial expectations that she set up in the first two, seemingly having done that successfully. And what I think that means is that she can do literally anything that she wants. she could do, I'm not saying that I think that she will do this, but like she could do something truly weird now. Oh, like.

And I think she could bring herself back to the- Olivia Rodrigo and her dead pets weird? I think she kind of, I'm not saying that I think that she will, but I think that you can now say after this album that she has herself in the territory where like she could do Olivia Rodriguez and her dead pets. And I'm not saying people would like it, but they would still care about the next thing. thing that she would do. They would still be there for her because as your kids, I think appropriately

you know, chastised you for not remember. Like, she's, you can count on her for greatness. I mean, she's 23. She's, yeah, I know. It always makes me laugh when somebody who's 23 references like looking for their husband, even if it is at a bar in Silver Lake. Yeah. Well, I, I appreciate the search. And, you know, again, she needs somebody with a real job, as she says. And look, the Easter egg conspiracy corner part of me just wants to ask you this. Is there anything about Cameron Winter on this album? Okay. Well, the last time I brought this up, you were like, it's not a date. Why do you think it's a date? Do you have anything to say for yourself?

I'm usually wrong That's what I have to say for myself No I don't think so It wasn't a date? No No I don't either I do think it was a date

You do? Yes, I told you this I just thought in hindsight We have not seen them together They were also both on tour And launching an album Whatever wasn't she I thought she was with him one other time

We can talk about that We can talk about that later Ultimately I do not think that there is anything on this album that is about Cameron Winter. Okay, that's fine. I think they had enough to do in terms of going back and retrofitting some of the lyrics and catching up to real time

a little bit before that point and, you know, save it for the next one. Maybe that's the next album appetizer. Yeah, well, I think that's where her musical heart leans. She leans towards the Cameron Winters... Toward East. And Robert Smiths of the world as, you know, more so than towards the

the hairy styles of the world. Well, she's got a vodka crayon and an open heart. So. Who amongst the greats doesn't? That's really true. God bless you, Taylor Swift. Once a Tay daughter, always a Tay daughter, no matter what happens.

Nathan, are you ready to grade this album? Yeah, what are you going to give it? Oh, well, first of all, let me just, I've already named all of the lyrics that are the best to me. It's the wide I try it all. I do think nothing's quite enough when I know that to get it I begged is pretty affecting. Nothing's quite enough when I know that to get it I bet. Okay.

If I'm truly honest, rocking my mini dress with a vodka gran in an open heart, I think it's my favorite. I went, I went, don't think my future husband is at this bar in Silver Lake. Yeah, I've got hope, yeah, I've got to drive. I will not lose my baby.

Don't think my future husband's at this bar in Silver Lake. As an L.A. resident that resonates even more deeply. Well, when we were just talking earlier this week about how much we both love East Side Girls by Moona. Fuck yeah, we do. The romantic foibles of the East Los Angeles creative set are really coming to the four in Spring summer 26 pop. It's such an interesting. I moved out here 20 years ago and I was like, there's no way that I can move to Los Angeles as an east coaster and not live near the water because I'll be landlocked and just be like, what the fuck am I doing here? It's hot in the summer.

Like, what am I? And now we got all these people who've made the wrong choice and they don't live near the water. And you're seeing what happens. You get stuck in the bar. Muni says you don't even miss the ocean. That's what they say. Okay. Well, you. Nathan Hubbard, West Side Boy, that you are. Grade this album for me, please. Yeah, I vacillated. It's an a minus. And the only reason that it gets the minus for me is because I don't know that there is an all-time hit on here. I'm watching you, silly song. I'm watching you, stupid song. But I think it's terrific. I really do. I think it is for me. For me,

my sort of pound for pound, I think it's the best, it's the best album that I've heard this year. And I know there's a lot more to come. But in terms of listenability, in terms of stuff that I'm going to go back to, I am deeply, deeply impressed with this album from Olivia Rodriguez. Yeah, I did the same. We're really synced up on this. It's, Olivia has historically been an artist who we both love, but on whom we diverge a bit. And not so with this one. I think it's her best album without her best songs. And that's where the minus comes in. I think I'm basically saying the same thing as you.

Excited to see it go on tour and how she tells the story, how she works it in with the rest of her catalog, and to your point, how she brings out what's exceptional about these songs in their recorded versions when she is on stage. This has been every single album. As always, I'm Nora Princeati. He's Nathan Hubbard. Thank you to Kaya McMullen for producing this episode and to you for listening. We will talk to you next week.