Everyday AI Podcast – An AI and ChatGPT Podcast - Ep 168: AI in Higher Education is Broken. How to Fix it.

Episode Date: December 19, 2023

We have some hot takes when it comes to how AI is being used in education. Universities are letting students down by the way they are/aren't using GenAI tools. Jason Gulya, Chair of Artificial Intelligence Council at Berkeley College, joins us to discuss the current state of AI in higher education and how to fix its shortcomings. Newsletter: Sign up for our free daily newsletterMore on this Episode: Episode PageJoin the discussion: Ask Jordan and Jason questions on AI and educationUpcoming Episodes: Check out the upcoming Everyday AI Livestream lineupWebsite: YourEverydayAI.comEmail The Show: [e-mail] with Jordan on LinkedInTimestamps:[00:02:00] About Jason and his role at Berkeley College[00:05:00] Attitudes toward LLMs in Higher Ed[00:10:00] Why universities use AI or ban it[00:14:40] Using AI in education responsibly [00:21:50] Advice for universities not wanting to use AI[00:28:40] How GenAI enriches learning[00:32:20] Future of Higher Ed and AI[00:35:40] Jason's final takeaway Topics Covered in This Episode:1. The Changing Landscape of Higher Education and AI2. Challenges and Opportunities in Integrating AI in Education3. Ethical Use of AI in Education4. Utilizing AI for Teaching and Learning Enhancement5. Collaborative Approach and Future Vision for AI in EducationKeywords:AI in higher education, responsible AI use, involving students, transparency, accountability, trust in colleges, job preparation, generative AI skills, professors experimenting with AI, AI-related committees, AI policies, optimism about AI, AI integration in curriculum, ban on AI, AI detection tools, skepticism about AI tools, English professor, AI consultant, changing nature of writing, humanities in the age of AI, large language models, ChatGPT, enrollment cliff, traditional academic silos, personalized learning, best practices in teaching, community of practiceSend Everyday AI and Jordan a text message. (We can't reply back unless you leave contact info) Start Here ▶️Not sure where to start when it comes to AI? Start with our Start Here Series. You can listen to the first drop -- Episode 691 -- or get free access to our Inner Cricle community and all episodes: StartHereSeries.com Also, here's a link to the entire series on a Spotify playlist. 

This is the Everyday AI Show, the everyday podcast where we simplify AI and bring its power to your fingertips. Listen daily for practical advice to boost your career, business, and everyday life. Meet Firefly AI Assistant, now live and Adobe Firefly, the all-in-one creative AI studio. Just describe what you want to create and the assistant handles the rest, orchestrating multi-step workflows across Photoshop, Premiere Express, and more in one conversational interface. You direct the outcome. The assistant accelerates execution. I have a lot of hot takes today, especially when it comes to how AI is being used in higher

education. Because if you've listened to the everyday AI show before, you kind of know that I have a feeling that so many universities and colleges, especially here in the U.S., are letting our students down. And I think that there's a great conversation going on with how should we incorporate or not incorporate AI into higher education. And luckily, it's not just me today talking about this. We're going to be bringing on an expert who actually is doing this and teaching not just

his students how to properly use chat GPT and generative AI, but also consulting other teachers, which I'm extremely excited for today's conversation. And if you are new here, welcome. My name's Jordan Wilson, and this is Everyday AI. Everyday AI is a daily live stream podcast and free daily newsletter, helping everyday people learn and leverage generative AI. So normally we do this super live. Today, hey, not everyone can always fit into that 7.30 AM Central Standard Time, you know,

kind of time slot. You know, sometimes there's people who are teachers and maybe are busy at that time. So this is technically pre-recorded. Don't worry. it's still debuting to you live. And we're going to be in the comments, answering questions as well. So with that, no more further ado. If you do want the AI news, it's still there for you.

It's still there. It's still fresh. So go to your everyday AI.com. Sign up for that free daily newsletter. We'll be recapping this conversation as well as sharing the freshest news and the freshest finds from across the internet. But let's talk about AI and AI and higher education, what's working, what's not, and how can we fix it. So again, I'm excited for today's guest. If you're on LinkedIn at all and if you are

reading or following anything in AI, you probably see a lot from our guest today. So let's go ahead and bring him on to the show, Jason Gullia and not only an English professor, but also an AI consultant for higher education. Jason, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much, Jordan. It's such a pleasure to actually meet you and get to see you even if just virtually and get to have this conversation. Because I think that, you know, there's a lot of lot we have to talk about with how higher ed is using AI or not using AI. Oh, yeah. This, hey, and if you've listened to this show before, you know this is one of my favorite subjects to talk about because I have a lot of hot takes, but that's why I also bring on someone who knows

what he's doing, someone that's doing it correctly. So Jason, can you give everyone just a brief overview of what are you doing both like as an actual professor and then what are you doing on the, you know, kind of AI consultant side as well? Yeah. So my everyday job is, I'm an English professor, so I teach basically anything related to writing, whatever that is, and I'll put that in giant scare quotes because I think that is changing. How we understand writing is changing, especially in the age of AI. And so I teach anything related to writing and the humanities. So I teach film, and I teach basically anything related to the liberal arts.

And what it means to, I'll use this phrase, to be human, right, whatever that is in this new world. And so that's my day job. And, you know, my side gig for the last year, basically since right after chat, GBT came out, is to consult with colleges and universities and also help students. I try to walk students, whether they're my students or they're at another college or institution, walk them through how to use AI, how to use it responsibly, how to use it to empower our voices, all that sort of stuff. And one of the things that I've learned is that these two positions, the side gig that I have and the everyday full-time gig I have, are very much bleeding into each other. I can't keep them separate in any way. And I've actually found that very empowering that I learned a lot by going in giving a keynote or doing a training at AI at another college, another university, and then bringing that into my own college and into my

own classroom and vice versa. I think that a lot of us, especially in higher ed, so even if we've been convinced for a while, as I've been, that AI is here to stay and we should use it in productive ways, I think that we're still, and I am still in this experimental phase where I'm still just learning from things out there and trying to play with things and experiment, seeing what works and what doesn't work and just iterating it. And being a consultant has really, I think, helped me be a better professor. And that's what I do. I love that. So, Jason, I'm curious, you know, so you mentioned you've been on the consulting side doing this for just over a year. You know, we're on, you know, month 13 and a half or something like that of just chat GPT being, you know, outman.

the wild, so to speak, how, like specifically speaking on the higher education side, right? Not just your own role, but how have you seen the attitudes toward chat GPT or, you know, large language models specifically in the use in higher education? How have you seen those change at all over the past year or had they not changed? I think they are changing, but much more slowly than I would have liked. And I actually think there is a weird trajectory that a lot of. lot of colleges and universities went through. When chat chvety came out November of last year, I think a lot of us started in that space of worry. And I'll be totally honest, the first time I

used chat chvety, I came across it right after it came out, I played with it probably for about an hour. And I turned to my wife, who was on the other side of the table, and I said to her, the most awful thing just happened. I found out how everyone is going to cheat. That was my immediate knee-jerk reaction. And then I put it aside probably for about two days. I went back to it and I changed my perspective because what I did is I forced myself to not think of it as a professor, but to think of it as a learner. And for me, that fundamentally changed how I approached this technology. And so that's where I started from. And I try to tell a lot of professors that that's where I started from. And this is how I've changed. This is how I now understand this technology.

And one of the things that astounds me every time I do a training is I encounter basically past versions of myself. Because what I think happened was that after chat GPT came out, a lot of us who were following it and tracking it became very, very worried. And then about two months in, I think there was all this optimism that professors were playing with it, colleges were playing with it. And so I became optimistic because I thought, oh, maybe this is going to be the push to change. and then it stopped. I think we went into the summer and many professors and colleges hit the pause button

and I don't think we quite got back on that trajectory. And that's sort of my worry because I think that we sort of plateaued. And there's a lot of evidence to suggest this that last year in the spring, professors were kind of, a lot of them were sort of on top of it,

at least playing with it and thinking about it. And now if you read around, students are way more advanced than professors and faculty members and administrators in this technology. And I think that we just have to get caught up. I think we have to get back on that trajectory as we're playing with things. I think that things are changing, but they're changing very, very slowly. And I'm trying to push things along as much as I can.

Why do you think the shift? Why do you think the shift? Why was there this initial kind of like optimism and excitement? And then why did that kind of even itself out? Why do you think that happened? I think the newness and the hype, at least in higher ed, wore off a little bit. I think that as long as there was a sense of novelty, professors really were saying, oh, maybe I can reimagine my syllabus now because now I have time to do it if I'm able to

offload certain things to AI. And so I think there is this birth of optimism. But then I think as that newness went away and we went off and we all did our own thing, our own separate thing in the summer, and then we came. back, I think that newness, it was lost. And then I think, and I'll put it this way, I think just everyday life just got in the way. AI can make us more efficient. You can save a ton of time. I probably save, I'd say at least five to ten hours a week because of how I use AI and how it's worked into my workflow. And I can repurpose that. But I had to put work into figuring that out.

And so now it becomes a hard sell if the technology doesn't feel new anymore. And then suddenly go to a professor and say, you know, you can save 10 hours a week, but you're going to have to put 10 hours into it, right, to learn something, right? Some skill, whether we call it, you know, prompt engineering or whatever language we want to give it, any things that describe interacting with an AI, that becomes a harder sell. Now the semesters are just kind of picking up and we all just want to go back. There's this temptation to want to go back to normal. And that's something that really, really worries me. And I think that it was a combination of that desire to get back to normal and and newness and that kind of hard self saying you need to put 10 hours or even more

into learning how to engage with these systems. I think that those three things at least explain a lot of what I think has happened. And to catch everyone up and I want to get your view on this as well, Jason, but it seems like there is a great divide, right? It doesn't seem like there's a lot of gray area when it comes to higher education's stance on generative AI tools like chat GPT. It seems like universities are either going all in and they're trying to teach it and incorporate it into their curriculum or they are just banning it. What would you say in your experience by, you know, consulting universities? What's maybe the reason why universities are, you know, being open to it?

And what's the reason universities are, you know, banning it or just. pushing it off. I think the big difference is whether the college believes that they can ban it. That's the big divide. So we have on the one hand colleges, universities, and professors who believe in AI detection programs and other methods that will allow them to keep AI out of the classroom. And they really, really believe it. I do not. I do not buy into AI detection programs. I don't think they work. I think they're super easy to fool. And also, there are ethical concerns I have with using them, even if they were accurate. But so I think that some colleges think that. And then others, and I think LSU is now working AI into 20 of their courses and stuff like

that. Others have started to recognize that that may not be practical, right? It's not a long-term strategy, even if you think that AI detection programs work, I think it's hard to say that they're going to work a year from now, or five years or now, certainly 10 years from now. They're going to break apart, right, at least in some way. And I think that's the big divide. And one of the things that I try to emphasize, whenever I work with college or certainly an administrator, is that keeping AI out of the classroom, at least for me, is not possible. You can't do it, especially as it gets worked into more and more programs. I mean, right now, I'm working on my desktop at home. I have Microsoft, and I literally have co-pilot built into the system that can do certain things. And that's going

become more and more the case that as we have this technology that, you know, we don't actually have to go onto a computer and log into chat GPT anymore. It will just come along with us, as we have more and more co-pilots to choose from, regardless of what system, regardless of whatever we're using. And as that happens, I think that we need to think more practically. And so I do think that that trust in AI detection will start to fade away, or at least I hope it will. But at least for me, that's the big divide between colleges that are innovating and trying to figure out long-term strategies for not just coexisting with AI, but actually using it and excelling with it. That's one kind of college and others that are trying to ban it. And yeah, I imagine that will change

to go along, but who really knows how colleges will respond or won't respond. I'm going to do something I don't normally do here, Jason, is I'm going to go on a very hard 60 second rant. And I'm going to put myself on the clock here because I think this is important to know. And maybe, you know, Jason doesn't want to ruffle any feathers, but I'm fine ruffling feathers, ready?

So here we go. Colleges out there, AI detection. tools are false. They don't work. They are a marketing ploy from companies who want to make money. Open AI themselves, right? I even think initially this, their own, they had their own detection program. I think, if I'm being honest, I think they put that out there to give people the ease to use it. But then obviously they, you know, six months ago or so, they obviously shut it down and said, hey, it's not actually accurate. It was only accurate 26% of the time, right?

Which is actually a much higher accuracy than I would give these AI detection tools. So right there, just the fact that Open AI essentially said, no, they don't work. They had their own tool. They shut it down. They said it's only 26% accurate. We've tried here everyday AI. So shout out to our producer, Brandon, who did a lot of work on this. We've busted every single one of them.

They are fake. They do not work. Period. I will just put that out there. And if you have one of those companies and you disagree with me, I would love to have you on the show. It probably won't be good for your company because I will show you very easily. I've been getting paid to write for 20 years.

They're fake. They don't work. These companies essentially kind of pay colleges to use them. Sorry, that's all. I will get off my steamy rant now, Jason, and ask you actual questions. But so how can we, you know, regardless of what happens in the AI detection scene, how can we still be responsible, right, about AI usage and chat GPT usage? You know, how can you find that balance still encouraging students to learn, to read on their own,

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Adobe Firefly AI assistant now in public beta. See it today at firefly.adopi.com. Yeah, and first I do want to very quickly do my own mini rant. I agree with you. I am on board with this. I'm never going to get my turn it in endorsement or whatever detection. I don't use them. They're out of my courses.

I have phased them all out. I don't click on them. I don't look at those percentages. And I tell my students that I do not. and I tell my students why I do not. And that's going to be my transition to answering your question. So for me, the key to responsibly using AI is transparency. I don't think you can teach it without having that.

And I have kind of what I've been told is a radical version of it. So one of the things that I truly, truly believe, if we want to move the needle in our courses in terms of getting students to use AI responsibly, step number one needs to be that we have to use it responsibly. And that means if we have an AI policy and I actually create my AI policy with my students, we actually create it together. I ask them what they think about it. They're able to have their voice heard.

I talk as well. And we work together to create that AI policy. And when we have that AI policy, whatever it is, I have to live to it up to it too. So if we decide, and a lot of my students want this, if we decide that if a student uses chat GPT for some part of the paper, right, that they announce it. They have, you know, something at the end saying what prompt they use, everything like that. If I do something, I have to do that. So if I use it for a course material, which I do, I let them know, this is what I used, this is how I used it. Right. And so I think that we have to all play by the same

rules, right, that if I'm asking my student to do something, I have to do the same thing. And that for me has to be step number one, because a lot of what we're dealing with, a lot of what colleges and professors are dealing with is the need to rebuild trust. And there's a long history of this. And I'll be totally honest. I'm okay with ruffling feathers too. Many colleges have lost the trust of the public. And there are a lot of reasons for it. And a lot of them are. college's fault, right? Tuition, it has gotten astoundingly expensive, right? So when I went to college, I think my tuition per year was $8,000. I graduated with my degree. I, you know, didn't get any help. I paid for it entirely myself. I graduated with $7,000 in debt. That's it.

enough that when I was a grad student, I paid it off. Now, that is unheard of now. And, you know, rising tuition costs. And for all other sorts of reasons, a lot of that has to do with job preparation or the lack of job preparation, means that colleges have lost trust. And so I think that on a very micro level, finding a way to rebuild that trust is key. Right. And that means being transparent, right?

Because if you're not transparent, you're not going to be able to encourage responsible AI use. I just don't think you can. If you are, say, if here is, for example, and this is happening in some classrooms, banning or supposedly banning AI, and then you go write a lesson plan with AI, that doesn't sit well with me. There needs to be a great deal of consistency. If we actually want to rebuild that trust from the bottom up. And so that has to be step number one.

And then also just making it clear that the classes that we teach are connected to what students want to do in the world. For me, it comes down to an ethical responsibility. I have an ethical responsibility to prepare my students for the workforce. It's not the only thing I do, but if I'm not doing that, I'm failing at my job. And I try to make it clear how I'm doing that, using AI and getting my students to use it in certain ways. And that just means using it responsibly and knowing really what AI literacy is, right? That's what a lot of it comes down to. So that a student doesn't just know how to use blank tool, insert whatever tool is helpful for them, but it's actually thought about what's happening in the background, how that tool is working,

how they can improve it, what, and all of those sort of questions that comes to basically just an awareness of what they're doing when they use AI. And so for me, it's about building trust, and that's the only way to encourage responsibly use of AI, and again, linking the classroom to the workforce, really more than anything else. You know, Jason, something very important you said there is trust in transparency. Because I think especially when it comes to AI, it has to be there. That's foundational. It's not a nice to have, right?

Here I go again, burning down bridges of any potential sponsor. But I think you look at the way, as an example, you know, Google, you know, kind of like, quote unquote, released Gemini to the world with very misleading information, right? They showed a live video. It wasn't actually live. Even how they built it. You know, they built it in a very, I would say almost a shady way. You know, so when you talk about trust in the classroom, I think it's important in what you said. And I'll point this out for, you know, if there's, obviously there's going to be a lot of educators and students listening to this episode.

I think what you said there is so important because it's two-way trash, right? And it's establishing those issues with your students and you're saying, hey, I'm going to, you know, adhere to the same rules. that you are in creating them together. I'll ask, well, I'm going to come up with one more opinion here and ask how colleges should address this. Because my opinion is if colleges and universities aren't already teaching and encouraging the use of generative AI, those students are going to leave the university at an extreme disadvantage.

The job market, more so than any time in the history of our lifetime. is demanding generative AI skills almost across all roles now. So what would your advice be to maybe a university administrator or a decision maker at a college that still thinks, you know, hey, still generative AI isn't for us? You know, we don't know how to police it. We don't know how to, you know, still give our students a high enough level of education. What would your piece of advice be, which I know is like the billion dollar question, but how do they fix this?

If they don't think it's for them, are students screwed? Is there a way to fix it? I actually have two levels of advice. So the first level of advice is on the micro level. So individual professors. So the individuals that students are interacting with far more frequently than any other level of the college.

So to them, experiment and play, try something out and tell your students that you are trying. it out when I was a grad student or even a young professor when I first got my role, I was very worried about experimenting with my students. I thought that my students were going to feel cheated, that, oh, he's just kind of doing everything off the cuff and not really thinking about things. But exactly the opposite has happened. If I started experimenting with something, and I found this with AI too, if I'm experimenting with something with chat GPT or Gamma or any other AI program,

and I tell my students that it fundamentally changes the learning culture. So on a micro level, get professors who are experimenting. And hopefully they've been doing that already, right? Maybe for some of us, I've been experimenting with this technology for a year. And you just learn so much by doing that and rerunning experiments. And then on a macro level. So for those colleges and universities, find the professors experimenting and bring them in, bring them into the conversation. One of the things that's happening on a big level with colleges and universities is that we have all these knee-jerk reactions, all these assumptions, all these biases in terms of how AI is being used. And that's another thing I want to focus on. Don't just

think about how professors are using it. Think about how students are using it. I really think that if you are at a college or working at a college right now as an administrator, you should have, if you can find them, a student on everything. If there is an AI committee, have a student on it. If you are organizing a conference on AI and education, have students on it. I think they should be all over the place. And if you ask a student to be on like a committee or in a conference, they just like light up. Right. So excited.

They've never been asked like, oh, what do you think about AI? And how are you using AI and how can I support you? And I actually start every course there that I actually ask my students how they're using this technology. because they're such a huge range, and colleges are not unique in this way at all that some of us are very familiar with it, some of us, whether a student and a professor,

are just getting started with it, and just finding that space of experimenting, and then finding a way to showcase them. So one of the examples I give when I go and I talk to faculty members or students to, is I talk about alternatives to essays. So I teach English in writing. And so for a long time, I've taught argumentation.

I believe it's a huge skill going forward, just being able to look, especially now at the amount of information out there, being able to synthesize and come up with like a core idea that you believe, right, is going to be a big skill going forward and we need practice in doing that. So the traditional way of doing that is to create an essay. So that you create a thesis, link everything to it. And I now have moved away from that in a lot of my courses. And so instead, I give my students,

a chat GPT prompt. And it's like a two page long mega prompt. And I can actually work it into a chat bot, but I want them to see the prompt. Most of them will not read it, but they pop it into chat GPT. And what it does is it forces chat GPT to be a contrarian. And I'll give it very specific instructions that their goal is to basically look at the argument and start to poke holes in it, finding assumptions, figuring out where they are, and I give it a lot of examples for what that can look like. And I have my students run that. And then at the end, I have them click that button that allows them to share the link with me. And I look at that instead of an essay. And I'll be totally honest. I learn 10 times more from that because I see not just how they can create an argument,

but how they can back it up, how they can respond when there's something that doesn't have feelings, it will just put pressure on you. Just figuring, just seeing how they respond to it. And having those sort of examples, I think you're going to be the way that we get AI and the responsible use of AI into colleges, into the classroom and into students' hands, because I think that you're right until we do that, we are not preparing our students for the future. Because after they graduate, regardless of what they're going into, they're going to need to be proficient in AI and really learn how to learn AI. Learn how to learn AI. new programs and all this sort of stuff. I think it's our ethical responsibility to do that as

colleges and as professors. Hey, professors, deans, administrators, whoever you are, Jason just gave you one very simple way to not only increase the transparency and trust, but to also, I think, have a much better learning environment for your students, right? Giving them instead of, hey, we're working on this. Here's the worksheet. It's here's the prompt, right? And then you have to share what you actually did inside. I love that. And Jason, one thing that I think, even my own experience on how I'm learning much more at a deeper level with generative AI, I liken it to back when I was a kid. If I wanted to learn something, I'd go to the library and either find a book or at home, you know, we might have some encyclopedias. And that was really it.

look at the, you know, even like three years ago, look at how much learning has changed, right? There's obviously online learning, e-learning, you know, you have interactive modules, you have podcasts, YouTube's, you know, PDFs, you know, like so many different formats or medias for learning. But what you just said right there, it even changes learning a little bit more. So can we talk about even like how much do you think that using, you know, GenAI tools like chat GPT, how much does that enrich the learning experience for students compared to traditional methods, which is generally, you know, reading, assignments, tests? One of the things that I emphasize for colleges and universities is that AI gives us the

ability, hopefully if we use it correctly and use it responsibly, to actually stick to best practices in teaching that we've known for a while we have not been following. We have known for decades that for the vast majority of learners, lecturing doesn't work. We've known for decades that certain kinds of learning actually ignites a passion for learning. And there's been a divide for a long time between what learning science tells us and what colleges and universities have been doing. If you go into a room and you say personal learning works, no one will argue with you, right? We've known that for a long time. And so now the power of something like AI is that we can actually do that because I don't think the obstacles

ever that a professor didn't recognize that personalized learning works. It's just that you can do that with 10 students, but maybe not 20 or 30 or 100 or 500 depending on where you're teaching. And so now you actually can to a reasonable extent. You can personalize the learning experience. And that is so powerful because in a simple, it's something is simple, you know, start small with a chatbot. It doesn't have to be a chatbot, but that's one way in which you can actually have students have it basically feel more like a game so that they can enter and learn regardless of their skill level. You go into a game, you might be able to hit beginner or expert or whatever the levels are in that particular game, in many ways, learning should be like that. And it hasn't been. And we know

that it hasn't been. And so I think that trying to emphasize that the way that in many ways, the way that we learn hasn't quite changed. What has changed our ability to deliver a learning experience that actually sticks to learning science, right? In a way that actually just makes it easier and it makes it scalable. And part of that is that it takes away the fear a little bit. But yeah, it's a tool, right? It's a tool that we can use to actually just make learning better. Yeah, it's crazy because I think that, you know, L&D, you know, learning and development,

you know, companies or, you know, departments within larger companies have already started to do this, you know, to your point, Jason, with personalized learning. I even go back and think to your example of, you know, this long prompt that you give to students that kicks off the learning journey, you know, hey, start off this semester by doing, you know, quick online assessments according to how students learn. And then maybe instead of that one prompt, maybe there's, you know, three, four, five different versions of that prompt based on students' own preferences or how they learn best, which I think is another great way and easy way to scale a more personalized learning experience. But, you know, one thing I want to ask you,

Jason is, you know, looking at how much things have changed, right? So we started the show by talking about how everything has changed so much in one year. Looking a year in the future, I know no one's, you know, in crystal ball, you know, can accurately predict it. But normally at this time of year, you know, 2023 wrapping up, we talk about 2024. What's this going to look like in higher education a year from now? All right. So can I do different versions? Yes, please do. My dream future is that we come to our senses, we move away from AI detection, and we rethink the learning experiences that we can give to our students, that we actually have individuals who are and have been experimenting with AI. We work with them. We work with students and we create this community of practice.

We're actually honoring these experiments. That's my dream scenario. My nightmare scenario is these programs get more and more powerful. and we dig in and actually see some colleges starting to dig their heels in. And that worries me because I do think there is a way that we can shape how this technology is used. But it needs to happen now. I think we are very much at that critical point that if we want to encourage students to, say, use AI to encourage critical thought, to encourage analytical thinking, connective thinking, right, everything we know works

and actually helps us not just learn, but actually be passionate about what we're doing. If we can do that in the next couple of years, I think it's going to make such a huge difference. So one of the things that I am trying to make happen is I'm trying to make that dream scenario happen because that's what I want to see happen. Right?

So we're actually using AI in a way that is productive, it is good, and it actually is responsible. But there's always this nightmare scenario that I also see playing out. out. And the weird thing about colleges, I guess it's not weird because companies go through the same thing. They're also drastically different. And we know we're about to enter in the next couple of years that what's called the enrollment cliff, we've known it was going to hit in about 20, 26 for a while. It might have moved a little bit earlier, depending on who you read. But colleges are all so different.

And so I think there's going to be this weird jostling for power in the next couple years. So I'm hoping that dream scenario is the one that plays out. And I'm going to be. trying to make that happen. There you go. Everyone that's listening to this, if you work in higher education, I hope you have a pen, pencil, word processor, typewriter, computer, something, taking notes because Jason's literally giving you the blueprint. And, oh, FYI, I agree, because I think all the universities and colleges that for the last

year have been encouraging and implementing AI, I think their placement, you know, their job placement rates, which universities care so much about, especially specialize, you know, part, you know, colleges within the university care about, they're going to continue to go up or stay steady where I think these other schools that are putting hard bands on AI, they're going to see it. They're going to see it both in first. I think their job placement rate, their reputations for, you know, that they've worked decades to, you know, bring up are going to start to suffer.

But, but hey, as we as we wrap this up, Jason, because I could. literally talk about this for hours. But what is your, because we've covered so much, so much here, but what is your best piece of practical and actionable advice, both for teachers and for students on, you know, ethically using chat GPT in the classroom, right? The how we fix it. What's your best one piece of advice for teachers and for students? Ask, so if you are on the professor and college side, ask students. Bring them into the conversation. I do think that step number one of moving forward is going to get as many people into the conversation as you possibly can. If you are at an academic institution, there is the tradition of living in your own silo. If you live in your own silo,

I don't think you're going to make it. I don't think you're going to be able to survive. Find ways to get out of it. Ask students about what they're doing, right? If you're a professor, ask students. If you're a student, ask a professor, right? Go out there, reach over to that other person, regardless of what they are and ask them if they're using AI, how they're using AI. Because one of the things I think is happening is we're staying in our silos, we're staying in our little cardboard box, and we're just not talking about this. And I think that is a huge problem. And I've actually learned a lot from just talking to my students and just having honest conversations about how we're using it for email or writing or social

media or whatever we're doing with it or now with like videos and images I use it all the time. So I would say just talk, right? Find out, you know, how you can have as many conversations from people in different groups with different jobs. I think that's going to help us out a lot because I think that a lot of colleges are not listening to students. And that's the big problem, especially because colleges, that's their thing. Our thing is to serve our students. And so we are not listening to them. We cannot serve them.

Oh, so good. My mic is unfortunately on a stand. Otherwise, I would literally drop it right now. Jason Gulli, thank you so much for coming on the everyday AI show. You fixed AI in higher education for all of us. So thank you. We appreciate your time. I don't know about that, but I appreciate it.

And thank you for the rent, actually. Keep putting pressure on institutions that refuse to change. Oh, I will. I will. Don't you worry. Hey, everyone, thank you. Thank you for joining us. And there is still the daily AI news.

Don't worry. So maybe you weren't able to get every single tidbit, every single golden nugget that Jason just dropped. We recap every single podcast episode. So go to your everyday AI.com. Sign it for that free daily newsletter. get your daily AI news and everything else there as well. But thank you for tuning in today, and we hope to see you back tomorrow and every day for more everyday AI.

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