EP 289: How To Leverage AI for SEO (for more than content writing)
00:00This is the Everyday AI Show, the everyday podcast where we simplify AI and bring its power to your fingertips.Listen daily for practical advice to boost your career, business, and everyday life.Meet Firefly AI Assistant, now live and Adobe Firefly, the all-in-one creative AI studio.Just describe what you want to create and the assistant handles the rest,orchestrating multi-step workflows across Photoshop, Premiere Express, and more in one conversational interface.You direct the outcome.The assistant accelerates execution.When you think of using AI for search engine optimization,
00:49you might just think it's for writing content,like hundreds of thousands of words and just churning out as much SEO optimized content as possible.But that's not all that AI is good for when it comes to SEO.So we're going to be talking about that today on everyday AI.I'm excited for,this one as a former SEO geek and, you know, someone that still does SEO, very stoked for our guesttoday. But if you're new here, welcome. Like I said, my name's Jordan. I'm the host of Everyday AI.This is your daily live stream podcast, free daily newsletter and your guide to grow your company with
01:28generative AI. So if you're joining us on the podcast, make sure to check out the show notes and goto your Everyday AI.com to sign it for the free daily newsletter. People don't understand y'all.like it's it is a university and a half of the amount of information and expert insights that we havefor free available on our website. So make sure you go check that out. All right, before we get intoour topic for today, let's start as we do every single day with going over the AI news.All right. So California is the first state to go all in on AI.California's governor, Gavin Newsom's administration announced the state's partnership with fivecompanies to develop and test generative AI tools to improve public service.
02:09This initiative makes them one of the first states to establish guidelines for purchasing AI technology.Generative AI is obviously the type of artificial intelligence that can create content in response to prompts, such as text,audios, and photos.So California's plans to use this technology is to improve customer service call times and wait times,improve traffic, road safety, etc.In the initial trial for California will involve four state departments and the public may have access to those toin the future. So a pretty, pretty interesting move there out of California.All right. Next piece of AI news. Well, there's a new competitor in the AI music race.
02:49So 11 Labs, a voice or text to speech AI startup is offering an early look at a new model thatturns prompts into songs, full songs. So the company hopes to use this technology in variousindustries, but it may face opposition due to concerns about copyright and job displacement forartists. So 11 Labs new AI model can generate both song lyrics and it literally just lays downthe entire song for various purposes, such as creating jingles or even dubbing movies.So right now it is just in preview. They posted one three minute song. And I'll tell you,it is pretty good, right? I think it's already at least one preview. I don't know if it's quiteat the level of Suno, but it's pretty close for a first attempt. All right, our last piece.
03:38of AI news and kind of relevant to today while we have some new OpenAI search news.So OpenAI's new search engine announcement has been pushed to this Monday, May 13th,according to a new Reuters report. Also, model specs and code names have been leaked by a leadengineer at AIPRM, one of the more famous chat GPT Chrome extensions. So the source code of the newAndroid chat GPT app reveals some future code names called GPT4L, GPDRM,GPT4L Auto and GPT4 Auto,which could be actually the new dynamic mode that some users have gotten early access to.So presumably this might be how the new search engine that ChatGPT has been working on to compete with Google,
04:23potentially perplexity, might be rolled out as soon as Monday.Obviously, tune in.We'll be bringing you the AI News Live Monday.All right, but that is not what you're here for.You're here to talk about how you can leverage AI for SEO.All right.So if you are joining us live on the live.live stream, appreciate it like Brian, Rolando, and Denise and everyone else.
04:43Make sure to get your questions in today.I'm excited to go ahead and welcome our guest for today.Please help me in welcoming Steve Toth, the founder of SEO Notebook.Steve, thank you so much for joining the Everyday AI show.Hey, thanks for having me, Jordan.All right.Hey, can you tell our listeners a little bit about what you do, your background?Yeah, for sure.
05:03So I was the SEO manager at FreshBooks back in 20, from 2018,2020 and during that time I started my newsletter which now goes out to 18,000 subscribers weeklyand essentially that newsletter is one actionable piece of SEO strategy. Not a lot of commentaryon the industry, not a lot of fluff, just essentially one actionable thing that you can tryon the same day and I've been doing that for almost five years now and just loving it.And yeah, in 2020, I left Fresh Books, became an SEO consultant for them.And now an SEO consultant to a number of mainly B2B SaaS companies and have a team of 14 right now and just loving what I do.So if you aren't an SEO geek, and I have to get this out of the way.
05:54Like I've been in and out of SEO, quote unquote, I don't know, for five to 10 years, depending on how you look at it.We still do SEO for clients.So Steve is the real deal.So if you are interested in the SEO, make sure in our newsletter today we'll be sending links to all of his information there.So let's just go straight to the end, Steve, and start off, how can people leverage AI for better SEO aside from just content writing?Yeah.I think there's just multiple ways.But one of the interesting LinkedIn posts that I put out focused on using AI,
06:31after your human written article is done.And there's just some really interesting ways that we can do that.So, for example, Google publishes what's known as the helpful content guidelines.And you can actually ask chat to, you know, digest these guidelines and rate your contentagainst them and give you pointers on how you can better meet those guidelines.So little things like that.Also, you know, I'm using it to strengthen my articles.So I'll essentially ask chat to.
07:01read the article and, you know, provide a key takeaway summary so that it's, you know, super digestible.I'll also ask it to scan the article and show and help my readers with a good reason to read thearticle, so really looking at the benefits and what they're going to learn. So, you know, it kind of,for me, the, you know, human written side of things is still really important. And I think it's a way tocontinue to stand out. And, you know, if we look at the writing talent that's out there,it's also quite plentiful. So I would just say don't sleep on human writers just yet,but use chat to essentially enhance their articles. And that's actually such a great piece ofadvice. And I want to actually dive into that in multiple steps and multiple follow-up questions
07:53here, Steve. So what you're saying as an example, because a lot of people out there, you know,whether you know it or not, you might actually be getting a lot of business from SEO, right?Like I've worked with clients in the past and, you know, oh, come to find out, yeah, like 75% of, you know,companies, you know, incoming leads or inquiries are coming from SEO and they may not even know it.So, you know, talking about this keeping humans at the front and center, it seems like so many people arejust rushing, right, to use tools like, you know, chat GPT or Claude or Gemini, et cetera,to just write literally as much.AI content and throw it on their website. Is that a bad approach? You know, because you mentioned
08:35humans first, which I love. So what should companies, business owners, marketers be doing, you know,when they look at those two different approaches? Yeah. I think, you know, there's still a,there's still a place for a hybrid version of that. I think where you're going to get into troubleis mass producing AI content. You know, like we were talking about if Google suddenly sees thatyou're publishing, you know, hundreds of articles a day or thousands of articles a week orwhat have you, it's going to be like, hmm, how did you actually do that? Maybe we'll take a closerlens and see, you know, the actual quality of this content. So definitely any like flagrantabuse like that, I think is super risky. And Google came down pretty hard on sites that did that and
09:19made public examples of sites that did that at the beginning of March of this year. So definitelyavoiding that at all costs. But I think, you know, when it comes to authenticity and your readers,and honestly, the long-term health of Google, I think it's a, you know, a big problem for them tosurface 10, 10 blue links or like even an AI summary of AI articles, you know, like thatultimately threatens the long-term health of Google and the faith that users put in it.So I think they're going to, it's just common sense that they're going to try to combat that in multiple ways.Yeah. And, you know, one other thing that you said there, Steve, and your first response is, you know, using, you know, chat GPT.And, you know, obviously, you know, different large language models are, you know, better at some of these things than others.
10:08But, you know, using chat GPT after the article is written and, you know, maybe sending it Google's guidelines and saying, how does this stack up?how you know take us back to when you first started to do that and talk about some of those resultsand maybe why that's important you know for other people to doAdobe just introduced an entirely new way to create bringing the power and precision of its creative suiteinto one conversational experience meet Firefly AI assistant now live in the Adobe Firefly appthe all in one creative AI studio powered by Adobe's creative agent Firefly AI assistant lets you startwith your vision, just describe what you want, and shape the outcome as it takes form with the assistant.The assistant orchestrates multi-step workflows, drawing on 60 plus pro-grade tools across
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11:43Yeah, I think, you know, when you're doing stuff like that,you can honestly just go and compare yourself to the ranking results.And you can use also chat to evaluate.your blog against the other ranking results.And you'll just see that by implementing some of those recommendations,you just add a layer of richness to your content.And essentially,scanability as well is another really important thing.
12:09Because as we know,like when most of us happen upon an article,we're just kind of scanning for the answer,checking the headlines and stuff like that.And just making sure that we are offering somethingthat the rest of the articles aren't,I think naturally you're going to get rewarded.And some of those strategies are really going to help you do that.
12:29You know, I'm curious.Have you done any, you know, comparisons or testing?I know a lot of people do, you know, they might put in, you know, 10, 10 articles thatare fully AI written, 10 articles that are just humans, 10 that are a mixture.But, you know, I'm curious if you've either done any testing, if you've seen any studies,but just overall, you know, performance of, you know, how you find that right mixture of,you know, the human and the AI ultimately writing for humans.Yeah, I think what I've seen is the human AI content tends to have a longer dwell time
13:02on that page, like people that literally the time on the page is longer because you'reproviding better information.Yeah.Yeah.And you said, you know, you said something which, you know, I kind of chuckle that, you know,if it's, if there's so much AI content out there on the web and then, you know, you havethe, you know, Google's search generative experience, SGE.or perplexity, you know, creating AI summaries.
13:26It's like, okay, AI summaries of AI written content.Do you think or feel that at some point there just might be too much AI contentor so much AI content out there that, hey, all of a sudden, this human content is justreally going to stick and stand out?Yeah.So one of the things obviously that Google is built on is links, right?So links, I highly doubt that, you know, the super authoritative.sites of the world, you know, the newspapers that we have like WSJ or New York Times or whatever,
13:58when you get links from those type of sites, it really, you know, bolsters your website. I don't thinkthose, I think Google is going to pay closer attention to the links that super authoritativesites are giving out because those sites have high editorial standards and they're not going to belinking out to AI content, right? So I feel like if you want to win long term and like win at thethe links game that essentially, you know, that human written content is going to prevail in thosecircumstances. And also, I think that LLMs, when digesting the world's information, are going toprioritize looking at the articles that have the most links because ultimately those are likethe ones that humans have voted to be the best, right? So, you know, if you've got an AI
14:47blog and barely, you know, any links to it,versus, you know, somebody's, you know, very authentic industry expert type blog that's got a bunch oflinks to it, you know, the LLM is going to favor analyzing and, and adding, you know, being trainedon that type of content versus something that doesn't have links. Yeah, it's, there you go.Link building is not dead, right? It's always the internal battle among SEOs, right?Is, link building matter? Is it dead? So there you go. So, Steve, I'm curious because it also seems like, you know,one of the way that you're leveraging AI or maybe, you know, helping clients leverage AI is,is to actually make it more human or better for humans, right? So how, how do you think that that
15:30process actually plays out? Can a chat, GBT, you know, or a Claude, you know, Gemini, etc.Can you actually use it to improve content that is written by humans to make it more helpful forhumans? Can AI actually do that? Yeah. I mean, like I think what I just mentioned aroundsummaries and key takeaways and whatnot, looking at your entire content and making it more digestible,I think that ultimately helps the consumption of your message. It can also help you create morecatchy headlines. So one of the examples I've talked about in SEO Notebook is essentiallylooking at all of the ranking title tags, so the blue links in Google, counting how manyinstances there are of each word,
16:21reformulating a titlebased on the most frequent wordusage, and then askingchat or whatever model you're usingto create like a unique spinon that. And I've donethat and I have examples in my newsletterabout that specific strategy
16:37and the unique anglesthat it creates just essentially help youstand out so much on the search results.So, you know, ultimately making you more helpful.Yeah. And yeah, that's ultimatelywhat it's all about, right? Whether it's a human, AI, AI plus human is writing helpful content for humans usingthese search engines. Great, great question here coming in from David. So asking if crawlers andsearch engines get smarter and leverage AI, will a focus on SEO decline as the back end is able to
17:08determine context versus us humans guiding it today? Great question. What do you think on that one, Steve?Well, I think ultimately we need inputs from humans to tell whether or not something is actually serving them.And if you think about the data that Google has through their Chrome browser, understanding whether or not people actually scroll all the way to the end of the article, digest the article, click on the links of the article, share the article, book market, you know, just basically engage.those are things that lend itself to like a human stamp of approval essentially.And Google also struck a deal with Reddit to use their API to essentially train its own models on human, like everyday language.And they're also going to be looking, I think, at the link.links inside Reddit because obviously Reddit is very kind of like highly moderated and hardto spam, harder to spam at least.
18:23You know, one thing that I'm always thinking about.And, you know, I'm not going to ask you to put on your, you know, your wizard hat.But, you know, clearly things are moving in a certain direction, right?So, you know, Google, you know, is coming out with their, you know, search generative experience,which is essentially, you know, very similar to perplexity.You know, you have perplexity.here you are with, you know, OpenAI, you know, presumably coming out with a search engine in a couple of days.What does that mean, you know, both for SEO and for how humans maybe are going to be consuming content on the internet?
18:57Like, what do you think as a, you know, SEO expert on that?I mean, it's super hard to predict what's going to happen.But what I can tell you is that people have predicted the death of SEO for a very long time.Like when featured snippets first came out and you got your answer.all within the SERP, it was like game over, SEO is dead, and that was in like, you know, 2014, right?And obviously my Google search consoles tells a much different story. And the other, you know,thing that I think is important to realize is that Google, you know, is very much in controlof how much traffic it sends to the web. And there's definitely certain aspects of the web that it
19:38doesn't really want to reward as much like, let's say, affiliate content for camping tents thator like, you know, what have you, like toasters or, you know, laptop stands and like, you know,just random affiliate type websites that it doesn't really want to, to reward as much. And I thinkSGE is going to be one of the first to wipe out those types of sites. But there's still, you know,I think a long-term viability, especially in the niche that I'm in that I've purposed.chosen, which is B2B SaaS, I think that, you know, people still need to go to those sites,watch the videos, consume the content to really understand what those products are.Yeah. And, you know, related to that, you know, we talked about Google's SGE, which, you know,
20:23essentially it, you know, kind of gives you, you know, oh, here's, you know, highlights from the firstthree to five, just kind of rewritten for you. You know, does Google know, right? Does Google know whencontent is AI. I think there's always, you know, different, different takes, differentmethodologies. And, you know, if so, or if not, you know, what does that actually mean forpeople producing content for the web, right? Like, oh, if it's allowed, should everyone be doing it?If Google can detect it, should no one be doing it? Where, I know it's a gray area, but, you know,walk us through that, kind of what that looks like. Yeah, for sure. So I don't think Google hasthe ability or
21:03they won'twant to like go through everyarticle on the web and run an AIdetection tool and saythis is AI or this is not. That's nota scalable solution for them.It's not very much, it's notin line with the kind of things that their
21:19engineers would do. Butin this beginning of March updatethat happened that essentially made anexample of a lot of sites that were abusingAI content, they looked forpatterns, right? Soas an AI language model, you know, like things like that, if that was in your content,then obviously, like, that's pretty risky, right?
21:38So basically it looked for footprints.And the other thing I think that they'll be able to do is, like what we mentioned,looking at publishing frequency and kind of raising some potential red flags for sitesover abusing and launching too much content in a short period or essentially looking atthe type of content that you're producing.Does your content only really answer one question?Well, that's a piece of content that's very easy to write with AI.But if your content is really a comprehensive guide and goes through multiple viewpoints
22:16and very well researched and lots of links, those are the kinds of pieces of contentthat are generally not going to be 100% produced by AI.And I think that that's the type of content that's going to be favored long term.And that's the kind of content that's going to get links.Yeah, that's a good point, right?And, you know, speaking of long term, you know, so Steve, earlier, you mentioned the open AI kind of partnership deal with Reddit.We just saw the same about two days ago with Stack Overflow.So there has, and, you know, maybe Stack Overflow is one of those early examples of, you know, large publishing sites that really just saw, you know, a lot of their traffic just kind of go away, right?
22:59And it may be just in certain niches that maybe people are using, you know, for, you know,chat GBT or a different large language model instead, you know, but if someone out there, you know,has seen, you know, a huge, you know, drop off in traffic, you know, what advice, you know,might you have for them if it is something that, hey, maybe this is one of those things that, you know,an AI search engine or an SGE or perplexity might really just take a long term big chunk out ofthis type of search.You know, what advice might you have for them or what could they be doing to, you know,maybe regain some of that because, yeah, like organic traffic is super important for
23:39companies.I think you really have to take probably like at least a week going through the SERPs thatthe search engine results pages that you used to rank in and really taking stock of the pagesthat have won, right?So understanding then.like what Google is replacing you with and doing your best to achieve parity or you know even goabove and beyond what's what's currently ranking. If somebody has lost, you know, a ton of traffic,my guess is that your content was deemed low quality from Google and that you probably want
24:17to get rid of a lot of it and probably consolidate your topics into a fewer number and morehigh quality articles. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's, that's, that's very, very helpful advice. Yeah. And I think,you know, a lot of companies don't even take the time, right, to do exactly what you said when it's,it's a fairly, fairly simple step and extremely important. Great, great question here from,from Tara. So just asking, right? And I'm curious, too, you know, so when it comes to AI, you know,what are your favorite tools for SEO? Well, you know, I, for AI,I like specifically, I guess the open API, we do a lot of work with Python and utilizing that.But I will just shift the topic to my favorite tool that is the most underrated tool that there is.
25:10And that is Google.com.So looking at the auto suggest results, the related searches, the people also ask, all those elements really help us kind of understand.the path that Google wants to steer users down.And I can give like a very quick tip that is super useful.What you'll, and this was in one of my newsletters,essentially you can Google a keyword like best mortgage rates, for example.And then you go back up to the search bar and delete best mortgage rates and begin typingsort of question-based keywords.
25:48So like what is, when does, how to.And then you're going to start getting auto-suggest.that are related to mortgages, right?So when I did that and I typed in when does,it said, when does the Fed meet again, right?After you've typed in best mortgage rates,and it's like you're never going to get any SEO toolconnecting topics like that.
26:10So I'm a huge fan of using Google for keyword research.And then beyond that, I would say HRFs is probably my favorite.Love to see those hacks from someone that knows.Yeah, like originally I was like,oh, kind of like answer the public.But then when you said that, I'm like, oh, that works in a little bit better or maybe adifferent way than even answer the public.So I think that's a great tip for people that, you know, costs zero dollars and zero cents.
26:37So, you know, one other, you know, question that I had, you know, what about how you canuse AI to call users to do something, right?Are there certain ways?Because I think, you know, sometimes great copywriters and, you know, providingvalue are maybe just doing that, but maybe they're not really, you know, putting that extra effortto say, how can we, you know, convert this person? How can we, you know, get them to take an action?Is there a good way to use AI to, you know, really improve that call to action?Yeah, you can definitely look at the call to action of your competitors and feed them into chat
27:15and ask them, you know, for something similar or something better.Another thing that I like to do is after my article is done, is ask it to essentially find places in the content that it would be great to add a CTA.So little things like that and just getting it to assist with your copywriting, let's say you even have a CTA, but you're just unsure of this one word that's in it.Ask it, what are some other words I could use in place of X?Things like that are hugely valuable and ultimately end up enhancing.your content and just our time savers as well. Yeah, that's great, another, another great point there.So Steve, we've talked about a lot in today's show. We've talked about, you know, how you can use AIafter, you know, a human rights and article to improve it. We kind of talked a little bit about Google's,
28:04you know, shifts on, on their stance around AI and some of the best practices for actually makingcontent more human, and better for humans. But, you know, if you, you know, as we wrap up,If you had to give, you know, that one piece of advice to someone on, you know, the best way that they can use AI, aside from just, you know, writing content, you know, in bulk, what is that takeaway piece of advice that you have for people?Probably looking at what you have produced either on a page or as your sort of map of all your content, so-called topical map on your website and asking AI to, in this,essentially enhance what you've already written,asking things like,what, you know, out of this comprehensive guidethat I've written, what are some topics
28:55that I haven't yet thought about, right?And then really getting that sort of last layer of polishon what you've already produced and already researched.And then just one other, you know,really important thing I think is don't neglect,you know, don't just work within chat, GPT.utilize the Google search results as much as you can get an understanding of what Google likesby actually looking at that stuff and then pull it into chat and ask it to analyze and synthesize
29:30that data.Got to love it.Just such great advice from an industry expert.Steve, thank you so much for your time and for joining the Everyday AI show.We really appreciate it.Thanks.My pleasure, Jordan.And hey, as a reminder, yeah, a lot of great advice there, whether you are in.
29:47an SEO expert, a marketer, or just trying to get your small business off the ground with a littlemore organic traffic.I think that there is great insights in there for all of us.So if you haven't already, make sure to go to your everyday AI.com.Sign up for that free daily newsletter.And we'll see you back for more Everyday AI.Thanks, y'all.Meet Firefly AI Assistant.
30:13Now live in Adobe Firefly, the Allman One Creative AI Studio.Just describe what you want to create in your own words and the assistant handles the rest,orchestrating multi-step workflows across Adobe Creative Cloud apps,including Photoshop, Premiere Express, and more in one conversational interface.You direct the outcome while the assistant accelerates execution.Stand control with the ability to step in and refine at any time.See it today at firefly.adobie.com.And that's a wrap for today's edition of Everyday AI.
30:49Thanks for joining us.If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave us a rating.It helps keep us going.For a little more AI magic, visit Your EverydayAI.com and sign up to our daily newsletter so you don't get left behind.Go break some barriers and we'll see you next time.
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