Everyday AI Podcast – An AI and ChatGPT Podcast - EP 34: How To Still Use AI When It's Taboo

Episode Date: June 9, 2023

What happens when AI isn't well accepted in your country?  Eman Fatima Syeda joins us to talk about the perception of using AI in different countries. While the use of AI is generally viewed positively in the US, there is hesitation around its usage in Pakistan, particularly in regard to generative AI and chatbots. The discussion touches on the generational and governmental factors that contribute to this fear and how it impacts businesses and hiring.Time Stamps:[00:00:55] Palantir CEO Alex Karp doesn't want AI to "pause"[00:02:23] Meta's new AI breakthrough[00:04:36] Eating disorder chatbot gone rogue[00:07:27] What happens when AI is taboo[00:09:11] Old generations resist innovation, AI usage feared[00:12:52] Another perspective on using AI in research[00:15:29] Eman's startup enhances transport with AI & e-vehicles[00:17:32] AI use should align with ethicsFor full show notes, head to YourEverydayAI.comTopics Covered in This Episode:Topic: Perception of AI in the US and Pakistan- In the US, AI is viewed positively and considered innovative - Generative AI or chatbots are not widely accepted or trusted by professionals or students in Pakistan - The fear of using AI and new technology is based on ethical considerations and potential negative outcomes in Pakistan Topic: Attitude Towards Innovation- Some people from the 90s or early 2000s believe that innovations, especially with technology, should not be associated with business if there are old ways of doing work - This mindset is prevalent in East Asia, where the older generation tends to discourage the new generation from bringing innovations because of their fear of change - This attitude is linked to both generational and governmental factors Topic: Startup Focused on Using AI to Enhance Transportation Systems- The startup has three microtech models to create an integrated smart mobility network that uses AI - The goal is to reduce road accidents and create a more user-friendly and advanced travel experience through integration of sensors and intelligent crossovers Topic: Using AI for Publications- Some people view using AI for publications as taboo, while some see it as a way to update and improve themselves - Acceptance of using AI for publications depends on the perspective and location/environment - Dr. Esteka recently allowed students to publish their publications with AI. However, there was a case where a student was punished for using generative AI to outline their publication Topic: ChatBots- The speaker talks about a chatbot called Tessa, created by the National Eating Disorders Association to help people with eating disorders - The bot went "bad" when unapproved updates turned it rogue and gave people looking for help with eating disorders bad advice - There is concern that this will be a problem in the future as people start to develop their own chatbotsKeywords:AI, Pakistan, US, generative AI, chatbots, technology, innovation, ethics, negative outcomes, job loss, startup, smart mobility network, sensors, intelligent crossovers, crossbows, creativity, publications, generational divide, perspectives, Tessa, National Eating Disorders Association, rogue bots, advice.Send Everyday AI and Jordan a text message. (We can't reply back unless you leave contact info)

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Should we be using it at all? That's just one of the things that we're going to talk about today on everyday AI. This is your daily live stream podcast and newsletter where we help you keep up with everything that's going on in the AI world. And we tackle some tough subjects. So we have a guest today helping us do that. Iman Fatma Sayyatta is a student at the University of Karachi in Pakistan. Iman, thank you for joining us.

Yeah, thank you for letting me a guest here. And thank you very much, Jordan. All right. I'm excited. Iman's been every single time on the show. So if you are listening to this on the podcast later, make sure to join us. We go live on social media at 7.30 a.m. Central Standard time. But Iman always brings up great questions.

So I'm excited to be on the other side to ask her some questions. So before we get into that subject of is AI taboo, let's actually talk about what's going on in the world of AI. Just because it's Friday doesn't mean that the AI news takes a pause. So let's talk about it. So kind of the first big story of the day, the Palantir CEO Alex Karp. So they're a big AI, I believe military selling AI equipment software to the military. but tech leaders have been calling for an AI pause for a long time. And essentially, Alex Karp said,

hey, the only reason that everyone's calling for an AI pause is because they're slow and they don't have a product or they don't have software yet. So what's your take on this, Iman? I think that's really a good thing because with rapidly innovations in the AI, I think people are really slow with keeping up with it. And it's something that we should accept because, everything gets updated real quickly and there are certain things that we can't get keep updated with it. So yeah, it's something that he said is a correct thing that we are too slow to keep up with the

AI. Yeah, it's that's a good point because, you know, things are developing. I always say tech used to develop on a on a monthly or a weekly basis, but with AI, it's it's hourly, right? You can read about a new technology in the morning, and by the time it's, you know, night, eight, ten hours later, so many people have taken it and just expanded its capabilities. It's wild. So speaking of capabilities, so Facebook, CEO, Mark Zuckerberg, or meta, whichever one you want to call it, is kind of hyping up some incredible breakthroughs that the company has seen in AI recently.

I don't know if this is supposed to be to detract people from, you know, Apple's news with their new headset and Mark Zuckerberg saying, hey, look at us. We have a headset too. But what's your take on this, Imann? Do you think Facebook is up to anything great? Facebook have been very secretive regarding their updates. It's always like whoever is interested in us will get to know first. And it can also be one of their marketing strategies where they want to grab their audience attention with introducing something new. So that many people who are interested in appellia will move forward to them. instead of looking at the news FAAI is giving.

Yeah, that's a good point. And, you know, if you're watching live, I just threw up one of Facebook's models. Yeah, I think, you know, they are, Iban was kind of talking about this before the show. They are kind of secretive. Facebook is with their AI and what they're working on. But they even have a model called the segment anything model.

So if you're watching this on the screen, you can kind of see the power of it. But if you're listening on the podcast, it's essentially the ability to recognize in real time, any object, any shape, and track it without having to train the model. That's the crazy thing. Normally, you know, if there's a dog running, you have to train the model. Let's say, that's a dog and this is running. The segment anything model apparently does it all for you. So, yeah, Facebook, you know, they're actually doing a lot behind the scenes.

So if Mark Zuckerberg's coming out and saying big things are coming, then who knows? Maybe big things are coming. Yeah, maybe they are revolutionizing in their own way. Yeah, that's a good point. So here's an interesting story. So we've talked about this actually in our newsletter that goes out every day. So make sure go subscribe your EverydayAI.com. So there's a bot that went bad.

This isn't the first time that, you know, a chat bot, you know, like a, you know, chat GPT or Bard, you know, you can kind of make your own version. not terribly hard, but sometimes they go bad. So that's recently what happened with a bot called Tessa. So Tessa was a bot trained by the National Eating Disorder Foundation, I believe, is the the, sorry, it's the National Eating Disorders Association. So they created their own kind of chat bot that they could use with their clients called Tessa.

So it was supposed to help people struggling with eating disorders. overcome those, have someone to talk to. It went off the rails. The bot went bad. This happened a couple of weeks ago, but a new story kind of came out and said, hey, essentially there are some unapproved updates to the bot that turned it rogue and ended up giving people looking for help with eating disorders.

Bad advice. So this is not good. Iman, what's your take on this? And is this going to be a problem in the future as people start to develop their own chatbots? I think it can be a problem. especially with ethical consideration of the AI, that unauthorized updates and unauthorized things to give AI is something that we should be considered of. Also, people creating their own chat boards without having good knowledge can be a bad thing.

And it can also linger with the ethical as well as the geometrical considerations of the AI. Yeah, no, that's a great point. So, yeah, as a reminder, if you are joining us live, feel free to drop a comment. Matthew, greetings from Ireland. Thank you. Thank you for joining us. So, um, uh, Eamon, that's that, that's great. So it's great. We just had a comment from Ireland. I'm from the U.S. You're from Pakistan. And, you know, we, we talked recently, you know, at least here in the U.S. Um, if you're using AI, a lot of times, it's perceived as you're, you're a smart person. It's, you know, they look at someone using AI as, okay, this is a leader. This is

someone pushing innovation. You know, so it generally has very positive connotations if you're using AI in your company or as an individual. Not the case in Pakistan, right? So, I mean, tell our listeners who may not be familiar, you know, what is it like for, you know, not just you as a student, but for any professionals to use, you know, generative AI, even, you know, chat GPT or any other AI. What's that like in Pakistan?

that? It's quite the opposite in Pakistan. It's like there is a taboo as the subject says. They consider it as you are lacking of the intelligence or lacking of the creativity. That's why you are using technology or AI as a shadow for yourself. In US, you consider it as a smart or innovating person, but here it's like you are lacking in your own intelligence or you are not learning that good. So that's why you're using AI to help you or to bring your creativity out of your So it's something very negative take here. It's not as an student as well as in the business because in many businesses there is always a headline that you are not allowed to take any help from AI or any generative

content or else it will not be published or it will not be like we will not hire you or something. So it's not only a problem at a student level, but it's also a problem at the professional or business level. Yeah. I think that's such, this is such an important. perspective because, you know, on the everyday AI show, we're literally talking to people every single day about AI. You know, most of our guests are from the U.S. So, you know, this is a perspective that I really enjoyed talking to Eamon about. But, you know, where is this, I guess, this narrative coming

from of, you know, hey, if you're using this, that just means that you're, you maybe don't personally have the intelligence or you're supplementing your own intelligence. Is this something, I mean, Is it government? Is it businesses? Is it social? Like who if media, like if you had to say like, you know, where this narrative is coming from, that's making AI a taboo subject. Can you place a finger on it?

I think there's a taboo coming from a generational perspective. Especially the people who are in 90s or early 2000s think that innovation, especially with the technology should not be considered with a business. It's their old ways of doing work. And that's something they, especially in East Asia, they dump on the new generation to like bring out their old ways, to not bring innovations. You are not allowed to change because it might go or they like suppose you to make decisions for yourself. Like they have to make the decisions for our life. But that's something you can say generation too as well as the aspect of the government.

Because whenever we think that government has taken apart in technology or innovation, it also. always go wrong. It's something about ethical considerations is something regarding technological innovation. So it's like a sort of what you can say is a sort of nightmare for them to use the AI in

their daily life or technology in their daily life because things might go or things might go bad if they use a technology which is everyone is using nowadays. Sure. So I do think that even here in the US there is a healthy fear of AI and what AI is capable of. However, I think that fear really truly exists if you start to separate AI. If you start to say, hey, generative AI. So that's your,

you know, I think what most people are using on a day-to-day basis. So, you know, text to something. So, you know, chat GPT, text to text or mid-journey, you know, text to image. So I don't think there's a a really large fear in the U.S. around generative AI. I mean, there is when it comes to job loss. But when you talk about other AI, you know, I think people can get a little scared. What is it like in Pakistan? Are people kind of, and kind of just the whole usage of it being taboo? But you're saying even for things like using chat GPT or if you're using any generative

AI, so you're saying generative AI in general is. considered taboo, right? Yeah. Yeah. First of all, people don't like, they have such awareness regarding generative AI or technology itself. But once they do, they started implicating that it's not allowed to use, especially for content creators or content writers who are working to make contents daily. They are not allowed specifically to use AI, even to outline their work.

So it's something like they considered it bad or they considered it that you are not creative enough or you are not capable enough to be a content writer or content creator if you're using AI, especially generative AI to help your work. So it's something bad here. Yeah. So a great question here from PJ saying, is this taboo concept unique to Pakistan or are there other countries that share this mindset? You know, I'll leave that one to you, Iman, because you actually, you know, talked about

this a little bit. I am from Pakistan. So it more seems like it is only Pakistan, but it's all. also especially in the Asia, especially in the Southeast Asia of the area, in Philippines, in Pakistan, in India, in China too, that they are, especially for their students, it's not allowed to use AI at all for their work. So it's, in Asia, it's commonly known as like the taboo for the AI, especially for the students itself, but in Pakistan, India and Philippines, in East Asia, it's also up to the professional life. Okay. All right. So we, we have,

have someone on the other side here. So we have someone kind of, you know, maybe not disagreeing, but offering another perspective. So another common commenter on the show. And I've actually talked to Professor Muhammad before. So he's saying he's originally from Pakistan. He doesn't feel that it's taboo in Pakistan saying over a period of a week, he tried a few students to write scientific publications. I'm guessing he's saying that they use generative AI and push it forward. So I'll get your response, but I'll also offer kind of kind of my, my take. I know that Professor Muhammad is really an advocate for chat GPT and he's used it to research papers. So my thought is, you know, even talking with like what Eamon said, kind of bit, maybe being a generational

divide, you know, she's, she's a student, right? Like you said, you're technically a teenager still. So maybe that's where the generational divide comes in. But do you see that maybe amongst your peers? Maybe it's taboo, Iman. But you know. you're saying, at least with those maybe older generations are viewing it as such. Or could it maybe be a taboo in some places and not as taboo in others? Yeah, I think it can be a taboo for some people. For some, it's not because people grow themselves, update themselves. But as he said, as Dr. Istekha said, that he recently let students publish their publications with AI.

I recently had a case in my university where they investigated a student because he used AI, genetic AI, to outline its publication and they caught him with it. So it's up to the people's itself. It's up to their perspective and it's up to the locations of where you are at right now. Yeah. So yeah, it depends upon the people itself too on how they update themselves and it's also upon the location or the environment you're in.

So if you're as a teacher or as an advisor, letting your students use AI for their publication, as well as there are many others who don't let them use it at all for even their homework. So it's upon the people to us upon the generations. And it's upon the point of perspective that everyone is having. Yeah. So I do want to talk a little bit because I know that you're using AI in some fun and innovative ways. So let's talk a little bit about the startup that you and some of your fellow fellow students have started.

So it's called the Integrated Smart Mobility. network. So talk talk a little bit about that and how you're using AI to get your startup kind of going. Okay, so our startup basically it started as a project for international competition. And if we are going to soon change into a startup, we have already started a few things, few baby steps to start it. And in integrated smart mobility network, we use AI to enhance the transportation system we already have. You know how a road accident we have, especially in Pakistan, in Asia, even in US, the road accidents. And so we use AI integrated into the already built transportation system to make it more enhanced. We have three micro-tech models in it.

We have mobility app where we use user experience of their traveling and make it more easy, make it more advanced. Then we have e-vehicles where vehicles are like more affordable to everyone. especially electric vehicles. And third, we have a smart transportation system where we integrated artificial intelligence into the already built transport system to make it more enhanced, like introducing sensors to sense the things that are going upward

like port holes or humans, and especially integrating the crossbox and crossovers to make it more easy and user-enhancing and user-friendly. So, Iban, you are our first student, on the show. So I'm excited about that. I think we have won our second student coming on on Monday. But I'd love to get your thoughts on especially. I think here in the U.S., it is, there's a gray area, right? Like in, you know, universities, in academia in general, should we be allowing technology? You know, you brought up the case of someone at your school being investigated for using chat GPT.

What's your thought on just kind of the state of using generative AI in education? Should it be allowed? Should it be encouraged? What's your thought? And what do you think that means for the younger generation? I think the use of AI should be encouraged and allowed in this academia system as long as it is under the ethical considerations. As long as under the ethical rules, like you are not using it for cheating, you are not using, pleasureizing your work. So as long as a student is doing it good,

a student is using it under ethical values, I think it should be encouraged. I think it should be used. I think teachers should use it too, to outline their profile, to outline more of their work, to outline their teaching too. So I think AI should be encouraged in a way

it aligns in the ethical values, whether it's in academia, whether it's in professional or business life. Yeah, I love that. You know, I've said it on the show before. If I was a professor, there would be a long paper due every single day. I know that sounds terrible,

but I think it's a skill to be able to learn and properly use generative AI. So my last question for you, unless we have any others that come in here in the chat, where do you see this specifically with students, because you still have a couple more years of school? Do you see this changing, at least for students in Pakistan? Just like the not just accessibility or the taboo changing, but also encouraged use to use this more in higher education.

I think far along in two years, I think it's not going to change that much. But if I talk about like five years or ten years, I think it will bring some changes because AI is making its place known to everyone. I think in five to ten years, Pakistan will be in its place where innovation is there. We are using AI is as normal as using social media and anything else. So I think in five to 10 years, there will be some changes regarding AI. All right. Perfect. Well, hey, that's it.

Iman, thank you so much for coming on the show. Very much appreciate your perspective in bringing these important conversations to life. So thank you for joining us. Thank you. Thank you for giving me time and giving me a chance to let people know about the taboos in Pakistan regarding AI. All right. Fantastic. So like Iman said, we're going to be sharing more of this in our daily newsletter. So some of the things that she referenced, we're going to be sharing about those. So make sure you go to your everyday AI.com. This is also on a podcast. Make sure Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcast, please subscribe. Leave us, leave us a rating if you like the show. So thank you for joining us and we'll see you back, not tomorrow, but Monday and every day after that on everyday AI.

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