Everyday AI Podcast – An AI and ChatGPT Podcast - The Future of AI Agents: Will there be more Agents than humans?

Episode Date: December 4, 2025

You're probably using AI agents without even knowing it. 🤯Crazier yet? It's very possible that there may already be more AI agent instances than humans in the world. Was that a bold claim we made a year ago? Yeah. But did Cloudflare's Tech Lead of AI Agents agree? Also, yeah. (See, we're not that crazy.) So, what do you need to know about the future of AI agents? Well, we DO KNOW this is one episode you don't wanna miss. The Future of AI Agents: Will there be more Agents than humans? -- An Everyday AI Chat with Jordan Wilson and Cloudflare's Sunil PaiNewsletter: Sign up for our free daily newsletterMore on this Episode: Episode PageJoin the discussion:Thoughts on this? Join the convo and connect with other AI leaders on LinkedIn.Upcoming Episodes: Check out the upcoming Everyday AI Livestream lineupWebsite: YourEverydayAI.comEmail The Show: [e-mail] with Jordan on LinkedInTopics Covered in This Episode:Prediction: More AI Agents Than HumansCloudflare's AI Agent Platform OverviewDefining Modern AI Agents and CapabilitiesAI Agent Builders: Low Code and No CodeAI Agents in Business Process AutomationScaling AI Agents: Observability and SafeguardsHuman Role Shift in Agentic WorkplacesFuture Impact of AI Agents on Daily LifeTimestamps:00:00 "AI Agents: A 2025 Reflection"04:09 "Cloudflare's Evolution: Powering Agentic Apps"06:52 "AI Agents Revolutionizing Accessibility"13:05 "AI Achieving Real-World Interaction"16:01 Software Evolution and Global Impact19:28 "Commodifying Tech for Regular Users"22:47 "Rethinking Trust in Software"26:08 AI Revolution in Healthcare28:42 "Embrace and Learn Emerging Tech"31:16 "Everyday AI: Subscribe & Explore"Keywords:AI agents, future of AI agents, agentic technology, AI agent definition, AI agent capabilities, enterprise AI agents, agentic applications, Cloudflare AI, AI agent platform, AI agent builder, no code agent builder, low code agent builder, agent deployment, agentic systems, agentic loop, chatGPT agents, monthly active users, proactive AI agents, business process automation, digital HR, observability, safeguards for AI agents, inputs and outputs for AI agents, scalable agent infrastructure, network infrastructure, durable objects, WebSocket support, planetary deployment, Slack bot integration, Gmail integration, scheduling capabilities, personalized AI assistant, Salesforce integration, agentic effort, trust in AI systems, accessibility of AI agents, agentic safeguards, business impact of AI agents, commodification of agent technology, safe agent rollouts, proactive business leaders, Send Everyday AI and Jordan a text message. (We can't reply back unless you leave contact info)

This is the Everyday AI Show, the everyday podcast where we simplify AI and bring its power to your fingertips. Listen daily for practical advice to boost your career, business, and everyday life. Meet Firefly AI Assistant, now live and Adobe Firefly, the all-in-one creative AI studio. Just describe what you want to create and the assistant handles the rest, orchestrating multi-step workflows across Photoshop, Premiere Express, and more in one conversational interface. You direct the outcome. The assistant accelerates execution. I had kind of a boldish prediction a year ago when it came to AI agents.

I said that by the end of 2025, there would probably be more AI agents than humans. So here we are at the end of 2025. And although there is probably no definitive answer to that question, I think it's safe to say that it's a valid question. Are there more AI agents than humans? Well, I don't know. But also, as we're planning in looking into 2026 and looking back at maybe agentic efforts from 2025, I think it's important to kind of take a look back and see what's been working across the industry, what hasn't, and what should we be looking forward to in 2026 when it comes to the future of AI agents in the enterprise.

So I'm excited to tackle that on today's episode. of Everyday AI. What's going on, y'all? Welcome. My name's George Wilson. I'm the host, and this is for you. It's your daily live stream podcast and free daily newsletter, helping everyday business leaders like you and me make sense of all that's happening in

the world of AI. My gosh, AI agents are changing literally by the hour, it seems like. So everyday AI, we help you make sense of all of this and grab the actionable insights out of everything to grow our companies and our careers. So if that's what you're trying to do, awesome. It starts here with the unedited, unscripted. live stream podcast, but to take it to the next level, make sure you go to your everyday AI.com. Go sign up for our free daily newsletter.

We're going to be recapping the highlights from today's show, as well as keeping you up to date with all of the other AI news that matters. All right, I am excited for today's guests. It's going to be a good conversation, whether you care about AI agents, whether you're using one, 100 or a thousand. I think today's conversation is one that you're going to need to pay attention to. So live stream audience, please help me welcome to the show. Sunil Pai, the tech lead of AI agents at Cloudflare.

Sunil, thank you so much for joining the Everyday AI show. Hey, thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here. I also like that my name itself has the word AI in it, and I'm kind of realizing it. Mine doesn't, right? But some, like my friends said I should adopt the nickname of Air Jordan, but have the AI capitalized with a lowercase R, but you know, just never really stuck. But, Sunil, can you tell us a little bit about what you do in your role at Cloudflare?

First of all, like I said, thank you so much for having me. I love talking shop about these things all the time. If you follow me on Twitter, you know this. I'm the tech lead of the AI agents effort inside Cloudflare, which is a network, infrastructure, hosting company that's basically spread across the planet. The roughly like one and two websites are backed by Cloudflare in some way, which is kind of an insane thing for me to understand. So I've been focusing on like building out AI agents for ourselves and for our customers

over the last year. I also have them build out the developer CLI. Previous to this, I was on like the React GGS core team. I've done like a bunch of things. But yeah, the focus is the topic. I want to say topic du jour, but honestly, I think we are going to be exploring this for a few years. the AI agents. Yeah.

And talk a little bit, you know, I think most people know Cloudflare, right? One of the largest organizations in the world in terms of, you know, having speed, security, reliability, you know, for online, you know, applications and websites. But can you explain a little bit about what you have on the agentic side? Because you do have a platform for building AI agents. Before we dive into all the fun stuff, tell us a little bit about what Cloudflare is doing on the agentic side. So the story actually starts closer to seven, maybe eight years ago, where we've built out this network that helps protect your website and your servers from DDoS attacks, Accur attacks, any kind of, well, like attacks of any sort.

And then we decided to run JavaScript on all these servers across, well, now I think it's something like 300 plus cities, 15,000 points of presence. The statistic that I really love is that I think close to 90% of the world's population is about 20 milliseconds away from a Cloudflare pop. So at one part, we are like, we're going to run JavaScript on all of these things so that you can build out all your web applications, APIs, things that mobile apps connect to, etc. And we've been building it out for a few years. and when LLMs took off a couple of years ago, because Cloudflare is such a, for lack of a better word, very innovative company,

we noticed that some tech that we had built out, namely like durable objects and the network itself, were extremely good ways of running these little agentic applications. And when I say an agentic application, I mean something that you can connect to an LLM, run this agentic loop where you're like, oh, as the coal bean reached,

yet can I talk to these tools? Can I, you know, connect to my Gmail and my Salesforce and so on? And keep doing it in the background without a browser connected to it or anything until it reaches that goal. So we took that seed of an idea and we built out a library and supporting infrastructure in the platform to build and deploy these. So you can go in like if you use the agent software development kit of which for which, which I build like every day in now. with my team. It's as simple as, yep, I point my little coding agent to our example, which like, oh, here's a Slackbot that I want to take. I want to connect it to my Gmail, et cetera. And I want, I also want to give it scheduling ability. So I want to be able to stay in Slack,

hey, little bot. You can give it a name, by the way. I sometimes say Freddie, because I, I like to choose the name of a friend I don't really have. Otherwise, it's just weird. I can actually say something like, hey, every Friday at 9 p.m., I need you to go through my email, all the code commits that I've made on GitHub, all the edits are made on the wiki, and I want you to compile them and send an email to my manager, because he keeps wanting to know what I'm cooking. And I don't really want to waste time on a Friday evening. I have better things to do on the Friday evening. And it turns out that these capabilities, scheduling the ability to talk to inference, use webbooks.

incredible WebSocket support. All of these things are so easy to build out and deploy in a planet review. And the best thing about our AI agents is that they can run super close to a user, which is to say 20 milliseconds away from you or close to other geographical locations that you want. So it's been a wonderful year building this out. I think we are at over like 150,000 downloads on the NPM registry, the JavaScript Package Registry, every week. And it's been incredible talking to customers.

And like I said, because Cloudflare has like every customer, I think we do something like 30, 40% of like Fortune 500 and thousands, millions everywhere else. It means we have seen like the spread. I really enjoy that. Yeah. So I kind of want to skip to the end here. And then we'll circle back. But are there, do you think there's more AI agents than humans right now, right?

Like, there's no definitive number. I've seen estimates anywhere from, you know, 600 million to 3 billion. But who knows? What's your take? Do you think there's more AI agents than humans right now or will there be soon? Okay. So I can use simple numbers to explain this. And it boils down to what you think is an agent.

Like, if you like, it's almost like the during test was sold like a year and a half ago. And we were like, yep, cool. Awesome. Yeah. Move on. Yeah. So chat GPD right now does roughly 1 billion monthly active users. Okay. So if you think, if you can tell yourself that each chat GPD instance is an agent because it can do things in the background, you can actually ask it to schedule stuff and talk to tools and connect it to your Gmail, etc. Well, you're at 1 billion agents right there. Okay. So we are like 8x away.

If you consider every running session to be an agent, now that starts multiplied, maybe two or three. Chat GPD themselves, I think they're working on some tech called Pulse. I forget what it's called, where it's going to start being proactive. Based on everything it knows about you, it's going to start doing things in the background, whether you tell it or not. We're like, hey, next week's your wife's birthday. Flowers, chocolate, movie tickets. Oh my God, the advertising potential there. And now that's just chat, GPT.

There are so many in-house systems. There are people who are deploying agents for all their customers. So you take somebody like an Atlassian, which has another few million users, et cetera, et cetera. You quickly start getting to like $8 billion. And that's like today. Like one of my pieces is even if there's like no model improvements, which is not true, by the way, I suspect somebody is going to do a Christmas surprise and say, yep, we beat all the bench. Like these things are now happening on a weekly basis.

I go to bed, I wake up and like the world has changed. So if you, even if you freeze that and all you do is you focus on getting this technology into the hands of regular people, just regular business owners, consumers, I don't know, teenagers, etc. You can cross 8 billion like millions. And that's like today. And say like give it another year and set number of. is blown out of the water. Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

For any definition of A, G.I. This is, this is. Yeah. And Sunil, you bring up a great point, right? You said, you know, something about chat GPT pulse, you know, something they rolled out to, you know, their pro tier subscribers a couple of months ago. I read it almost every day, right? I get it delivered.

And I almost forget like, oh, wait, that is an agent, right? It connects to my calendar. It connects to my email. And every morning, it delivers a customized, personalized digest. and I can give it feedback and then it just goes out and does the work. You know, it seems like even just the very definition of what an agent is, what it does, has changed drastically because I think you just gave a great example there of an agent that many people already have access to.

And we're probably not even thinking of it as like, oh, this is an AI agent because it's just there and it's easy and it's accessible. Could you give me maybe your definition of an AI agent and also maybe talk a little bit maybe on how that's changed or maybe it hasn't changed over the past year or so. I mean, the biggest thing is a year ago, I didn't think we'd move this fast and be here. Like, I need to like revisit my timelines all the time. I just saw the new video model released by runway today and it's indistinguishable from the out. It's crazy. Yeah, it's scary.

Anyway, so what is my definition of Egypt? So I, of course, work in, I'm a software engineer. So I think of things in terms of software. So I like thinking of it as an entity that can take inputs. So inputs can be as low level as something like HTTP requests, web requests, or we can think of it higher level. I can send emails to it. I can make phone calls to it.

I can send text messages to it. I can connect it to chat apps, et cetera. So there are all these inputs. I expect it to be able to do outputs, which means I expect it to be able to send emails to say I make phone calls to come back to the chat. So the inputs and outputs for me are very important. And then I like thinking about the agentic loop. You start giving it goals. These goals can be something that ends very quickly where you're like, hey, can you find me the top 10 pizza places in the

US? From what I hear, they're all in New Haven. That's what I understand. I had some New Haven one style pizza, very nice, very crispy. But some of them can be open-ended, which is until the day I die, you're going to keep looking at my health markers, which I will feed you via inputs with my Apple Watch, and you're going to tell me how to make myself healthier. What do I eat? How do I exercise? How do I sleep? And that's really it. The combination of these input outputs and this loop where it keeps trying to go towards goals powered by,

extremely smart models. That's honestly all it takes. You can talk about, oh, it needs capability to do code execution or it needs the ability to do planning. Well, this is just enhancements on the same model itself. And I think, yeah, I think of course the big thing

is that you're now giving this magical entity the intelligence and I like considering it hardware, but the ability to interact with the real world and get things done. This was, forget about unheard of like two years ago. This was only in the realm of science fiction. This was Star Trek, Parastar Galactica, all of that. But it's real.

Like you can use it right now. Yeah. And I even remember going back to, you know, let's just say this time last year, right, when I made this kind of crazy prediction. At the time, I think it was maybe only a handful of the biggest companies that had, you know, true agent builders. I think it was November of 2024. Actually, no, because it was my birthday,

and I was at the keynote in Chicago, where Sadia Nadella, you know, announced co-pilot studio, right? But at this time last year, there were very few kind of low-code or no-code true agent builders, right? And so now we already talked about what you do at Cloudflare. We kind of already referenced, you know, OpenAI. They have their agent builder. You know, Google just released their sales,

Salesforce, everyone, it seems like, has a no code, low code agent builder, no matter what platform you use. So what does that mean? Like, how should we be thinking about agents? Should we be trying to deploy them across any software we use? Because it seems like, right, if my website's hosted on Cloudflare and I use Gmail, but I have a Windows computer, it's like, okay, well, should I have agents running in all of those? How should we be thinking about where and when and how to deploy agents since they're everywhere?

Look, the way I think about agents is I think about, is exactly the way I think about software. The first software company ever was actually like Microsoft. And I still think it's a terrible name for a software company. And it's been a while. They're not going to change it. Software, the number one use case has not been for, let's say, like for sentient girlfriends, even though that's a thing that happens today. The biggest number one use case has been the most boring three-word phrase uttered,

which is business process automation. It has been a tool to amplify people's capabilities and their impact on the planet. It started off with, I don't know, like little shell scripts that researchers would use, but then it entered spreadsheets, data processing systems, e-commerce systems, to the point where like things that were the purview of very hardcore subject matter experts were paid a lot of money in the 70s and 80s to regular people nowadays. You can't really make the joke anymore that oh it used to be that like my parents were bad at Google like using Google but like that doesn't make sense anymore because like everybody on

the planet young old people interact with software on the daily basis. Smartphones did that for Okay, so agents take that and they give the ability to take a very enthusiastic, slightly stupid intern level intelligence with and help you amplify like your impact on your business, your life as well. But the big thing that I always think about are the machines that drive commerce and capitalism like across the world. That for me is like the number one thing. So yeah, absolutely I think you should be like running these on your Windows. machine and on Cloudflare and on wherever else good software is run. Yeah, and you talked a little bit just kind of, you know, business process automation,

right, which for the most part, that's where we've been for, I don't know, 10 to 20 years, at least, right? Like we've had software that can automate certain, you know, manual knowledge work tasks, yet, you know, something I'm always grappling with and luckily I get to to talk to a ton of smart people such as yourself, right? But if AI agents are very capable of doing the exact things that many of us are spending the majority of our time doing, how should, number one, okay, well, how can we even plan to deploy them? But number two, what should we be planning in 2026 and beyond for ourselves and, you know, our human counterparts to doing? because clearly it has to be something more

than just overseeing and orchestrating multi-agentic systems. When databases started becoming a bigger thing in the 90s, I remember that there used to be a real job called, I mean, there still is, but it used to be a very big deal of database administrator, a DBA. You would have to spend a lot of time learning about these things and running them on these expensive machines

and mainframes and so on. And it was the job of, many people took it upon themselves to just keep working at that problem for years and like decades to the point where it went from the purview of subject matter experts to becoming like, you don't really, you had to be a programming expert

to have a blog in 2001 as as late as 2001. You don't think about that. that anymore. You make a Facebook account, you make a Twitter account, you're good to go. And those systems scale to a thousand orders of magnitude bigger than the kind of scale you used to have on the internet back then. So it's actually like a harder problem to scale that now, but regular consumers don't see it. I think we are in a similar phase with AI agents. If you're a subject matter expert or you're a developer like someone like me, our job right now

is to basically figure out the process where we commodify making this, regular technology for regular people. That's what we are doing right now. We don't want you to have to worry about your servers going down, etc. Which takes me to the next part of your question, which is, well, what happens when you start deploying these in large numbers? And the phrase that I like throwing around is, you need to have digital HR.

Like if you imagine a world where one human being has 20, let's say 20 agents running at a time. That's like having 20 stupid employees. And that's not the easiest thing to like manage. So how do you look into how well they're doing, whether they're getting their goals? How are they not, for lack of better phrasing, going out in the middle of the night and getting digital drugs? You know what I mean? And showing up high to work the next.

So what is the equivalent of this? And you can't tell regular people, well, you have to set up observability systems and have metrics and Prometheus. No, so what is the commodification process of that? And that has always been a hard problem no matter how good technology is. You want to make sure that it's like rolled out in a safe way, but still in a way that amplify. You don't want to hold back the capabilities until, well, I don't claim to be like an expert in running business systems. So I need to give people the freedom to be able to take this and use them like safely. And once these things happen, what do humans do?

Man, I live in the north of England. I'd like to go to the beach where it's warm and chill without. worrying about how I'm paying like rent next month. This is all a little bit hand-wavy. It's why we have AI safety systems and the smartest people, not just in technology, but like in government, wondering what people will do when a lot of this work is being run by. I don't know, I'd just like to be on a warm beach myself, I think.

I would recommend that. Yeah, absolutely. And anything an AI agent can do to help me spend more time on the warm beach, it's like, yes, let's prioritize that. But you know, so Neil, you brought up an interesting point, you know, kind of talking about the history of development and, you know, even, you know, how over time anyone could, you know, go and create a website, right? I like to think sometimes just the ease of creating a website. I mean, it seems like it took a really long time, right? Even though, you know, whizzy wag editors, you know, what you see is what you get, they were around 10, 15 years ago, but it really, took a long time for them to be truly accessible to the masses. What do you see on the agentic side? Because in my opinion, it seems so easy, right? All the big players have essentially the version or the

equivalent of a whizzywag agent builder. Some of them, you just speak with your voice and nothing else. Right. So how should we be building these agents? And how can we prepare for the future when maybe our agents is that going to be the only way to get our work done because everything is just going to be agentic by default? I think a lot of this is speculation on my side. I think we're going to have to rethink. A, I think as technologists, we're going to have to rethink the entire software stack where they can be run by these agents.

Like, for example, just in Cloudflare, for example, there are so. many checks and balances in place to make sure a human is responsible for certain decisions that are made, configuration changes, code deploys, etc. If we get it around, we occasionally take half the internet time, which is a little weird. We don't want to do that. But now not only do we need to make these systems where we can let these agents relapse but we need to develop a sense of trust for these software systems, which kind of takes you you back also to like 15, 20 years ago. These concerns about the internet taking over,

what they are going to do to the economy, how will the easy availability of information where anyone can say anything truthfully or they can lie through their teeth, how do you develop a trust in technology systems? I actually don't think like we have like good answers for that yet. Like my uncle and aunt, they still are highly distrusting of AI systems. And it's probably because no one has sat them down and explained to them how they work. What are the boundaries? What is it that it can do? What is it it can't do?

And every day the list of the things that can't do gets shorter, which is also a thing. And which is why I think it still is going to be, let's call it like a slow takeoff. No matter if the technology is good enough, building out just the social systems for people to understand how these things work, what they're good for. I suspect, I don't think there are good answers for it yet, but just like we as humanity, as a group of people, we figured it out over the last 20, 50, 100, ever since the industrial era, I think we'll figure that out. It's probably education. Yeah, yeah, 100%. And, you know, education is huge because, you know, probably just in the time that we've had this conversation, I'm guessing that there's been a lot of, even in this, you know, 20-some minutes, there's been more. new developments that, you know, even if you try to stay up every single day, that's what I do.

You can't. There's always new capabilities, right? And that's something I'm always having to look back and be like, I can't believe how far we've come in, you know, one year, one quarter, one month, one week, right? So as we look forward, all right, what? You know what? Yeah, we want to have this conversation next year. What might we be talking about? Well, here's, here's my first recommendation. There should be someone named Jordan, who makes it his job where every day he has a podcast where he explains this to everyone who's willing to come and listen to her. That goes like a long way towards making this kind of technology. This technology paradigm shift more accessible.

So if you know someone like that, let them. In one year, what can we look forward to? I think, oh, here's the thing. Models will get smarter. they will be able to run for longer periods of time and do longer tasks. It used to be a year ago, you could barely get a minute of work out. Forget about a minute, like 15, 20 seconds of work out of any, out of chat TV. But now it can, if you pay for the higher tier, it can go off and do things for like 20 minutes, half an hour, just researching, coming up with ideas.

Dude, it's coming up with like new drugs to fight cancer and diabetes. Huge. Like, oh my God, that's the thing I want technology to do for us. I suspect all these AI companies with a lot of money in the bank, they are going to work very, very hard to get this technology into people's hands for whatever purpose, because they need to prove their valuation short, but because they actually believe this technology is going to make people's lives better. If you know anyone who works at these companies,

you know they actually care deeply enough about affecting social, economic change on the planet. So I suspect the conversation in a year is not going to be what is AI, but what do I not know about AI that I can use to make my life better? Because by this time, I'll already have these agents working from me in my phone, in the house. Turns out Spotify is now going to let you prompt what music you want. I'm really looking forward to that because I like music from before the year 2000 and I would like, I don't know, like music after the year 24. I've lost touch. I'm too old. Same. Same. Right? I just

like just I need guitars. I need drums and bass. Like just naming music only with that. So I think the goal of humanity has always been like radiating outwards from identity. How do I make my life better? How do I make my family's lives better? And how do

I impact the outer world to be a good place to like live in? And in a year we're going to be looking at how do I use technology to do all these things. It has always been the story with technology. And I think we will be continuing that part of the conversation. All right.

So, Sunil, we've covered a lot in today's conversation, just talking about the future of AI agents, everything from challenges and opportunities to observability, safeguards, accessibility, etc. What's your one kind of biggest takeaway for business leaders that maybe are still grappling, right, between the huge upside of AI agents and their capabilities? with the maybe sometimes unknown or unforeseen pitfalls.

What's your biggest takeaway for them? Oh, it doesn't matter if the technology isn't good enough right now, whether the models are not smart enough. We have almost a guarantee that they will get better, which means your job right now is to become familiar with these systems and just to get experienced in using them so that you know what they're good at, what they're not good at and how they could benefit you. I guarantee you most people are either afraid or they don't have the time or even worse some of them have been told by other people that

this is just bad technology. Like there's there are dooms and there are people who don't understand it and are influencing other people. Your job as an entrepreneur as a technologist it right now is to find familiarity in the systems so that when the opportunity does come, to you, you know what next step you can take. We are like, oh my God, Sunil Pai was talking that I could build a little AI agent that can answer my phone calls for me and my, and I can have an email agent that I can send all my invoices to so that in a year when the models are good, I can say, can you just calculate my taxes for me?

which is something that I hear is, which is just something so stressful, because if you get it wrong, you go to jail, right? So your job right now is just to get familiar. Pay $20 a month for chat, TV or plot or one of these things. Talk to people in the space,

find out like what they're doing. You will get, out of the 10 things you attempt, nine of them will be useless, but one of them will be useful. But you can't know which one of those 10 will be useful unless like you all try all 10. I highly recommend people just get their hands in there right now.

Do it for low-stakes things. Don't run like your bank account on it. Do it just to automate some boring stuff in your life. You will be in the 1% of people who are ahead of the game when the opportunity presents us. We see this time and time again without the same thing. Fantastic parting words. And thank you so much, Anil, for taking time out of your day to join the Everyday AI show. we really appreciate it.

Thank you, Jordan. So great for it. All right, y'all. And if you miss anything, don't worry. We're going to be recapping all of that in today's newsletter. So if you haven't already, please go to Your EverydayaI.com. Sign up for that free daily newsletter. Thanks for tuning in today.

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