Everything Everywhere Daily: History, Science, Geography & More - Ancient Rome and the Ancient Chinese

Episode Date: July 9, 2020

2,000 years ago the Han Empire in China and the Roman Empire in Europe were the two greatest empires in the world. Between them, they covered an enormous amount of the Earth’s land and a large percentage of the world’s population. But were these two great empires even aware of each other? If so, was there any contact between them? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

2,000 years ago, the Han Empire in China and the Roman Empire in Europe were the two greatest empires in the world. Between them, they covered an enormous amount of the Earth's surface and a large percentage of the world's population. But were these two great empires even aware of each other? If so, was there any contact between them? Find out how these two great ancient empires interacted with each other on this episode of Everything Everywhere Daily. What if your perceptions about the past were wrong? throughline is a podcast that takes you back in time to uncover the parts of the story that may have gone unnoticed. It effectively turned day into night and how it shaped the world now.

Time travel with us every week on the Thurline podcast from NPR. This episode is brought to you by the Travel Photography Academy. Have you ever been on a trip and wondered why your photos don't turn out like the images you see in travel magazines? If you're going to spend thousands of dollars on a trip and hundreds to thousands of dollars on a camera, you owe it to yourself to get the highest quality images from your trip. That's why I created the Travel Photography Academy. I set out to travel around the world in 2007 with an expensive camera, and I had no idea how to use it. As I traveled around the world, I taught myself the art of travel photography,

eventually mastering it to a point where I was named Travel Photographer of the Year three times in North America. The Travel Photography Academy is an online course that teaches you everything, you need to know to master your camera and to take better photos on your next trip. To improve your photography and to get better images on your next trip, visit Travel Photographyacademy.com or click in the link in the show notes. Before I start, I should say that whenever we talk about the ancient world, there's a lot we just don't know. Most of the writings we have from this time were written down hundreds of years after the events

took place. And of the things that were written down, the vast majority of them have been lost to history. So what we have is a scattering of documents and whatever archaeologists might find. That being said, there is ample evidence that China and Rome knew about each other, but it doesn't mean they knew very much. What they knew mostly consisted of rumors, legend, and stories. There is little evidence of any direct contact between the two empires. Not only were they separated by enormous distances with deserts, mountains, and seas between them,

but they also had some very large and powerful kingdoms and empires between them. in particular the Parthian Empire, which consisted of much of what is today Iran and Iraq. The Parthians had a very lucrative business in serving as middlemen between China and Rome. Most land trade routes passed through their territory as they controlled all the land between the Caspian Sea and the Indian Ocean. If you traveled by sea, you'd have to stop in one of their ports if you wanted to avoid an open ocean crossing between India and the Arabian Peninsula, which few ships at the time were willing to do. To look at what they knew of each other, let's start with the Chinese and what they knew about the Romans. Most of what we know about Chinese views of Rome come from a document called the Wei Lu,

which was written by the historian Yu Huang during the Three Kingdoms period between 239 and 265. The Chinese name for Rome was Da Quinn, or Great Quinn. This could be a reference to the Quinn dynasty and the first emperor of United China, Quinn. This might have been their way of implying that the Roman Empire, was on a par with the Quinn Empire in terms of greatness. Some of the passages indicate just how basic their knowledge of Rome was. Here are some of the passages from the translation of the Wei Lu. This country, Da Quinn, has more than 400 smaller cities and towns.

It extends several thousand Li in all directions. The king has his capital, that is the city of Rome, close to the mouth of a river, the tiber. The outer walls of the city are made of stone. This description of Rome is so generic it could apply to almost any city in Europe or even most of Asia. It continues, The ruler of this country is not permanent. When disasters result from an unusual phenomenon,

they unceremoniously replace him, installing a virtuous man as king, and release the old king who does not dare show resentment. This is probably referring to the Roman system under the Republic, where consuls were elected to one-year terms. However, by the time the wayloo was written, it had been several centuries since the system. was the case. The Wei Lu even goes to explain why they haven't had direct contact with Rome. They have always wanted to communicate with China, but Aung Shi, Parthia, jealous of their profits, would not allow them to pass through. And this was right on the money. The Parthians made

too much money off goods passing through their territory, and the last thing they wanted was for Romans and Chinese to trade with each other directly. They also indicate the primary product which Rome was importing. Furthermore, they regularly make a profit by obtaining Chinese silk, unraveling it, and making fine western silk damask. This is why this country trades with Aungxi, Parthia, across the middle of the sea. And this was also true, the Romans would further enhance the silk which they imported, almost all of which they imported from the Parthians. They identified the Roman Senate by noting, they have appointed 36 leaders who discuss events frequently.

The Senate actually had way more than 36 people, but they did get the gist of it. They even noted that Romans wore something like a toga and that they cut their hair. So what did the Romans know of the Chinese? The Roman word for China was Syrica, and the Chinese were called Syrians. This word derives from the Latin word for silk, Syracum. While Syracum mostly refers to China, it really sort of applies to everything east of India. They just didn't have enough knowledge of the region to differentiate the different cultures which live there. Pliny the Elder noted,

Then east of the Caspians, we find again tribes of Skithians, and again desert tracts occupied only by wild animals, till we come to that mountain chain overhanging the sea, which is called Tabas. Not tell nearly half the length of the coast, which looks northeast, has been put past, do you find inhabited country? The first race then encountered are the Ceres, so famous for the fleecy, product of their forests. He got the general direction of China right, however, he had no clue where silk came from, thinking it was a product of the forest and was a type of wool.

Almost all mentions of Syrica in Roman literature are with regards to silk or its location. There is very little which indicates they knew about Chinese culture or the people who live there. As for trade, we know the Romans imported silk, but we have very little evidence of what the Chinese might have imported. The truth is, they probably imported very little of action. The truth is, they probably imported very little of actual Roman origin, because most of what Rome exported would have been bulky goods like wine, wheat, and ore, which would have made it to Parthia, but not much further. However, there have been some recent discovery which indicate that there were some Roman goods in China. There have been several finds, including the tombs of Cheyenne, where Roman coins were found.

Recent finds of Roman coins in Japan almost certainly found their way there via China. There are also several samples of Roman glass, which were found in Chinese tombs as well. There was glass making in China, so the demand for foreign glass probably wasn't that high, and transporting something so fragile, so far was extremely difficult. Did any people ever make the trip from Rome to China? The answer is yes, but not very many. The Roman historian Floris made note of envoys from the East who visited Rome during the rule of the Emperor Augustus. Even the rest of the nations of the world, which were not subject to imperial sway, were sensible of its grandeur and looked with reverence to the Roman people, conqueror of nations. Thus, even Skithians and Samartians sent envoys to seek the friendship of Rome.

Nay, the series came likewise, and the Indians who dwelt beneath the vertical sun, bringing presence of precious stones and pearls and elephants, but thinking all of less moment than the vastness of the journey which they had undertaken, and which they had said they occupied four years. In truth, it need but look at their complexion to see that they were people of another world than hours. There is no record in any of the documents of the Han Empire which made note of an official delegation to Rome, so they were probably just merchants acting on their own. In the year 97, a Han envoy by the name of Gan Ying was sent to explore the west. He arrived in Parthia, but the Parthians convinced him not to travel any further west as they told him it was dangerous

and it would take two more years to get to Rome. Most Chinese knowledge of Rome probably came from secondhand information learned by Gan Yin on his voyage. There was a Roman delegation that arrived in China in the year 166. The Han records show them having been sent by an emperor called Andun, which is believed to have been the Emperor Antoninus Pius or his adopted son, Emperor Marcus Aurelius. The envoys were said to have traveled by sea from the south, entering China through what is today Vietnam. As with the Chinese in Rome, there are no Roman documents confirming that an envoy was sent to China. Nonetheless, the Emperor Huon played up the visit of the Romans to help his domestic political situation,

as ambassadors from Da Quinn provided him with a great deal of prestige. So the answer to if the Chinese and Romans knew of each other is yes, but what they knew was really vague second-hand information. The Chinese knew the Romans wanted their silk, and the Romans knew they produced silk, but there was almost no direct contact between the two empires. Before a close, I should make note of one final thing, the legend of the lost Roman legion.

In 54 BC, the Roman general Crassus, one of the original members of the first triumvirate with Pompey and Julie Caesar, lost the Parthians in the Battle of Karai. It was one of the most humiliating losses in Roman history. 20,000 Romans were killed, and over 10,000 were captured. Those 10,000 captured Roman legionaries were believed to have been sent to fight for Parthia on their eastern frontier. The Chinese general Ban Gu reported of fighting approximately 100 men who used what he called a fish scale formation, which is very similar to the Roman testudo formation, where soldiers would interlock their shields for protection.

A legend started in the 20th century in the Chinese village of Lycheon that some of the people there were descended from these Roman legions who worked their way to China after the Battle of Karai. Unfortunately, there has been no archaeological evidence of any ancient Europeans ever having traveled that far inland into China. And recent DNA testing shows that European traits that some of the residents show most probably came from Central Asia. This is a brand new podcast, and as such it can really use your support.

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