Everything Everywhere Daily: History, Science, Geography & More - Universe 25

Starting point is 00:00:00 Have you ever wondered what it would be like to create a utopia, a place where all your wants and needs were taken care of and there was never any fear of harm? Creating such a world for humans may be far off, but one man did try to create a utopia for rats. He created a world that had everything they would ever want and where all their needs were taken care of. But it didn't turn out like anyone expected. Learn more about Universe 25 and how a utopia turned into a dystopia on this episode of Everything Everywhere Daily. What if your perceptions about the past were wrong? ThruLine is a podcast that takes you back in time to uncover the parts of the story that may have gone unnoticed. It effectively turned day into night.

Starting point is 00:00:55 And how it shaped the world now. Time travel with us every week on the ThruLine podcast from NPR. If you take a strict definition of the scientific method, you first create a hypothesis and then you conduct an experiment to test the hypothesis. While it's great when science works this way, often the most interesting results will come when someone just says, let's try this out and see what will happen. This was the impetus behind the study, which was the subject of this episode. An ethnologist by the name of John B. Calhoun, who worked at the National Institute of Health,

Starting point is 00:01:32 devised a study in 1958 that would take place on Norwegian rats. In a barn in rural Maryland, he created what he figured would be a rat paradise. In this rat utopia, there would be no shortage of food or water. There would be no predators. Plus, there would be plenty of space for the rats to live and build nests. The area for the rats was divided into four parts that were three meters by 4.3 meters by 2.7 meters in height. There was a hallway around the structure, and all of the rooms had glass ceiling so the researchers

Starting point is 00:02:00 could see what was happening. He ran these experiments for a total of four years before having to cease the experiments to take a sabbatical at Stanford. He wrote up his findings for Scientific American, and the result of the results. became famous in several communities, but more on the results in a bit. In 1968, he once again went back to the Rat Utopia Blackboard, and at this time he ran the 25th version of the experiment, hence the name Universe 25. This setup was a bit different. For starters, he used mice instead of rats,

Starting point is 00:02:29 and he created some vertical tunnels for the mice to access nesting areas, but other than that, the mice would have had everything they needed, just like the other experiments. The only real limit on the mice was space. There was a finite amount of space, but he estimated that Universe 25 could hold 3,840 mice. The experiment started with eight mice, four males and four females. They were put into Universe 25 and allowed to be the best mice that they could be. At first, everything went great. The mice spent a lot of time eating, running around, and reproducing.

Starting point is 00:03:01 The time it took to double the population of mice was approximately 55 days. The mice slowly began taking up all the space that was available. and the mouse population kept doubling at the rate of 55 days for several months. However, when the population hit about 620 on day 315, something happened. The mouse society began to change. Starting with day 315, the time it took for the mouse population to double rose to 145 days, up from 55. For about the next 330 days, the mouse society in Universe 25 began to break down and the behavior of the mice changed radically. Baby mice were often kicked out by the mother before they were finished weaning.

Starting point is 00:03:43 Young mice were often attacked. Dominant males would often start fights for no apparent reason, and they became extremely violent, and they would often resort to cannibalism. Females became aggressive with other females. Non-dominant males basically just gave up and wouldn't fight back when they were attacked. Eventually, the new mice were born into this system, and they didn't know anything else. On day 560, population growth basically halted. The mouse population hit 2,200 mice, which was well below the number of mice that the universe could theoretically hold.

Starting point is 00:04:13 This began what became known as the death phase. On day 600, the last mouse was born. Reproduction among the mice totally stopped. None of the mice, male or female, were interested in reproducing. One group of mice separated themselves, and they were dubbed the beautiful ones by the researchers. They did nothing social. They didn't reproduce. They didn't mark territory.

Starting point is 00:04:35 They didn't fight. They didn't do anything. They engaged in no social activity whatsoever. All they did was eat, sleep, and groom themselves. The mice at this point had no clue how normal mice behaved. They never grew up in that world. Eventually, the entire population of Universe 25 became extinct, and it wasn't from a lack of food, water, or even space. There was plenty of space, especially towards the end as the population was nearing zero. What Calhoun found in Universe 25 was basically the same thing that he found in the other previous 24 universes. The population would grow rapidly. At a certain point, the mice or rats would engage in antisocial behavior, and the social order would collapse. All the mice would shift to solitary activities, reproduction would plummet, and eventually the population would go extinct. Calhoun dubbed this change a behavioral sink. The big question on everyone's mind was, what did the results mean? One problem is that everyone seemed to read into the experiment whatever they wanted to. There have been many different interpretations of what the results meant.

Starting point is 00:05:36 The first and most obviously direct interpretation was that the change in behavior was due to overcrowding and overpopulation. This is certainly a plausible hypothesis. However, the population didn't come close to its maximum capacity. And given the parameters of the experiment, there were never a shortage of resources. Another explanation has to do with social roles. There are only so many social roles that can be filled in a mouse society. When mice fall outside of these roles, such as being a dominant male, in nature they would just go off somewhere else and perhaps find a different mate. In Universe 25, there was nowhere to go. This caused social problems to be inserted into the mouse society that otherwise would never exist in nature. Yet another theory is that there was too much

Starting point is 00:06:19 socialization. Laboratory rats raised in isolation can often have stunted development. However, perhaps there are problems that can be at the other end of socialization as well. Those were just the theories to explain what happened to the rats and the mice. Everyone then had theories for what it meant for humanity. In the 1960s, some felt that the overpopulation and dense crowding in cities like New York had led to a general sense of apathy. This, it was claimed, was reflected in the murder of Kitty Genovese in 1964, which was reportedly witnessed or heard by 38 people, none of whom came to her aid or called for help. The experiment was used to explain the breakdown of the family. Female mice on willing to care for their young and violent male, and

Starting point is 00:07:00 were compared to what was happening in people. Movies like Soylent Green were analogous to what some people thought was happening in Calhoun's rat universes. And recently, some people have been making connections between the experiment and how people react on social media. They compare the behavior of subgroups of people on the internet to how some of the mice behaved when they suffered from too much socialization. However, many of these opinions were just that. Opinions. They weren't backed up by any actual data. They were just ideas that people were spitballing.

Starting point is 00:07:28 For obvious reasons, it would be difficult to replicate a study like this with humans. It would take decades to carry out, not even to consider the ethical issues of keeping someone locked up for that much time. However, some limited studies on humans have been done. There were some sociological tests done on people with limited extreme crowding, but they didn't get the results anything like what Calhoun found for rats and mice. Eventually, researchers began to offer more technical critiques of Calhoun's experiment. For starters, they noted that the utopia he built was really really, just a prison. The mice did have everything they wanted except for space, and that isn't much

Starting point is 00:08:03 different than humans in a prison who are fed. Mice in the wild would never live their entire lives in confines so small. As with prison, it allows for the most aggressive mice to control everything, which eventually leads to the breakdown of the whole society. Over the years, the interpretation of Calhoun's experiment has changed to reflect whatever the current issue of the day is. Ultimately, humans are not rats or mice, especially when it comes to socialization. Humans have long memories and can reason our way out of situations that rodents can't. Nonetheless, the rodent experiments of John B. Calhoun have been the inspiration for several fictional works, including Judge Dred and Mrs. Frisbee and the Rats of Nym. Calhoun's Rattopia experiment was odd in that, at least scientifically, it really wasn't useful to explain much of anything.

Starting point is 00:08:50 It was a fascinating study, but people are still arguing about its implications and why it went the way it did. However, as a metaphor and a cultural touchstone, the experiment was a huge success. Everything Everywhere Daily is an airwave media podcast. The executive producer is Darcy Adams. The associate producers are Thor Thompson and Peter Bennett. Today's review comes from listener Nut Job over at Apple Podcasts in the United States. They write, Almost Perfect. Everything Everywhere Daily is nothing short of brilliant. Gary Arn's bite-sized recounting of history, science, geography, cuisine, etymology, and points in between are the perfect distraction for any time of the day. I personally like to let several of the Amusa Bosch episodes pile up and then settle in for a long

Starting point is 00:09:34 dose of engaging and grossing information. Arndt tackles historical figures you know and don't know. Finance, like the fascinating history of credit cards, mathematics like prime numbers, and conditional probability, and even where and how everyday eating utensils came from. It's perfect. Almost. The only thing I can't stand is the five-star reviews he reads at the end of each episode. Gary Arndt found a sneaky way of making sure his podcast is at the top of the charts. He essentially bribes people to have their own words spoken by him, but if they leave five-star reviews.

Starting point is 00:10:03 That's an underhanded trick, buddy, and it's not nice. The podcast on content and delivery alone is worth five stars, absolutely. But teasing people with the chance of fame, hey, Ma, listen, I'm on the air to boost ratings and to make me fast forward through these inane reviews is why I can only give it four stars. Okay, nut job. I need to explain to you how the Apple charts work because your understanding of it is wrong. reviews have nothing to do with how Apple ranks podcasts on the Apple charts. Nothing at all.

Starting point is 00:10:33 All the five-star reviews in the world will not do anything to help a podcast get up the Apple charts. And this isn't just me saying this. This is directly from Apple itself. From the Apple podcast website, quote, Although ratings, reviews, and shares also help indicate a podcast newness popularity and quality, they are not factored in to the algorithm that determines rankings for, top shows and top episodes. In other words, they may not help people find a podcast on their own,

Starting point is 00:11:02 but they can influence whether people listen or follow, and those factors influence the charts. End quote. I've placed a link in this episode's show notes to the page on the Apple website where you can read this for yourself. So I'm not gaming or cheating anything. I am not at the top of the charts, which you are free to verify yourself.

Starting point is 00:11:19 The top of almost every chart category in Apple Podcasts is almost always podcast by large companies. I am a one-person operation. This show is currently ranked about 50th or 60th in the Apple history charts in the United States, and I have never been close to the top of any chart, except for some reason in the country of Malta. The only thing which determined where you rank in the Apple charts

Starting point is 00:11:40 is the number of people who actually listen and subscribe to the show on Apple, with a bit of a bias towards new listeners. That's it. So, why do I read reviews every episode? The first is, yeah, I want people to leave good reviews for the show. I am guilty of that. Podcasts primarily grow through word of mouth. While the algorithm isn't affected by reviews, human beings certainly are, no different than using Yelp or TripAdvisor or Amazon. Good reviews are a means of social proof to people who might be new to the show. So, I absolutely

Starting point is 00:12:12 encourage people to leave a good review if they enjoy the show, and I'm certainly not going to stop encouraging that. Secondly, podcasts do not have a like or share button, and there's no comments. Reviews are one of the only ways people have to actually interact with a podcaster. That is why I don't just read reviews from Apple, even though they are the majority of them, because they are the most popular podcast app. I've read reviews from podcast addict, podcast Republic, cast box, podchaser, Instagram, Patreon, Twitter, and even email sent to me directly. Any sort of feedback and interaction is great for me because otherwise there would be nothing. So if you want to leave a review and hear me read it at the end of the show, sure, I'm happy to do so, just like I did for your review.

Starting point is 00:12:54 Remember, if you leave a review or send me a boostagram, you two can have it read on the show.

Everything Everywhere Daily: History, Science, Geography & More - Universe 25

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