Everything Is Content - America's Next Top Mess, Carolyn Bessette & K-pop Confusion

Episode Date: February 27, 2026

Hello EICulture Vultures. Our gorgeous Beth is ill this week, everyone say get well soon Beth!So we were all rooting for this new Netflix documentary series to give us an unfiltered and balanced look into the unbelievably problematic world of America’s Next Top Model. The question is…did it? So for anyone who hasn’t watched it, Netflix released “Reality Check: America’s Next Top Model” on the 16th of February, and in three separate hour-long episodes it dives into the creation of the show which was hosted by Tyra Banks and then briefly Rita Ora, the many scandals that happened during its 24 seasons- or cycles, as the show called them- and how it all fell apart. We hear from many former contestants, as well as former judges J “Miss J” Alexander and Nigel Barker, and creative director on set Jay Manuel. But most controversially, Tyra Banks also appears and has her say- something people are having a lot of feelings about, and which we will get into. More TV news! A new limited series from Ryan Murphy's anthology franchise has captured the minds and hearts of the internet, myself included, it documents the intense, whirlwind romance and subsequent tragic marriage of John F. Kennedy Jr. played by Paul Anthony Kelly and Carolyn Bessette played by Sarah Pidgeon, Based on Elizabeth Beller's book Once Upon a Time: The Captivating Life of Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy, the show explores their rise as a 1990s "It Couple" while highlighting the immense, often suffocating pressure of fame, paparazzi, and legacy. We give our thoughts!Thank you so much to Cue podcasts for the edit.We hope you enjoy! O, R, B xRuchira's been loving : Alysa Liu, There Will Be BloodOenone's been loving: Derry GIrls, Museum Of Pop Culture with Josh WiddicombeWe were all rooting for Tyra Banks to give us some answers – but this America’s Next Top Model documentary gaslights its audienceReality Check: Inside America’s Next Top Model review – Tyra Banks comes across terribly in this exposéLove Story Is Doing Daryl Hannah DirtySecrets And Lies Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm Ruchera And I'm Anoni And this is Everything is Content The podcast that shares the week's biggest and best Pop culture stories We cover everything from celebrity gossip to award-winning cinema and terrible television With a Calvin Klein coat

buttoning up the content ensemble from the week Our gorgeous Beth is ill this week Everyone say get well soon Beth Ritura and I will try to do our best without her This week on the podcast The show that's made everyone obsessed with Carolyn Bassett Kennedy, Inside America's Next Top Model, and a K-pop gig fiasco. Follow us on Instagram at Everything's ContentPod and make sure you hit follow on your podcast player app so you never miss an episode.

So I know there's only two of us, so it's going to be a bit of a quicker one. But what have you been loving this week and only? So obviously last week on the podcast, I think it was last week, Beth recommended the new show by Lisa McGee, the creator and writer of Derry Girls. And instead of watching that, I just started watching Derry Girls again. And God, does it hold up? It's so good. I forgot how good it is. So I'm like maybe halfway through the first season, very much enjoying that rewatch.

And then I will get onto the new show after that. And then my second thing, which I've only just started, but I am enjoying, is Josh Whitacom has got a new podcast. I listen to parenting hell every week. Don't know why I have no kids. And he keeps advertising it. And advertising just really works on me. So he's got this new show called Josh Whitakins Museum of Pop Culture, not to bring a competitor into the fold.

But he does deep dives on pop culture. And I've just started, he's got like a four part one on Studio 54, the world's most infamous nightclub. And it's quite funny because he's kind of chatting to another comedian and they just, they don't really know anything about it. They're like discovering it together. And it's quite good for now. That does sound quite good because there are some kind of facets of pop culture history,

which I really do want somebody to explain from beginning to end how they became such big things. And Studio 54 is exactly that thing. Yeah, me too. It's something that I've always been so interesting. I want to watch more like films about it. But yeah, I'm going to get into that. I haven't quite finished it yet.

What have you been loving this week? So I am bringing a person for this week to be my fave, and they are Alyssa Lou, America's now gold winner figure skater from the weekend. Do you know about Alyssa Lou? Like, I mean, even over Instagram, she's just become like that girl. I've seen some clips, but I haven't been fully engaging with the Winter Olympics. I am so sorry.

Please tell me more. So she has this amazing backstory. Essentially, she became a gold winner at the age of 16 for the US, retired, came back. She's now 20. So this is her first time back on the ice. I watched her last weekend, and I believe she came in second or third to Japan's amazing figure skater. this past weekend, she performed again and won gold. And my God, the amount of triple axles, the amount of spinning, she does this amazing thing

where she glides on the floor of the ice and picks herself back up, twirls around like it's nothing. Me and my partner were watching it and we were like, no, that is ice. She's dragging her knee on ice, but making it look like it's water. It's just so beautiful. And I think the reason why everyone loves her is she's also an absolute baddie. So it's like this Instagram baddie on the ice, excellent at what she does, so talented, and one of her performances was to Pink Pantheras.

Oh, I need to get into this. I did see a video, and I don't know if it's her, but someone's husband, like, screaming, was it her when she won her gold and he, like, runs across the whole audience and, like, jumps up to our parents. It's really sweet. It was like from a film.

Oh, I didn't see that, but my God, okay, I need to watch more clips and just go deeper into this. My other thing that I've been loving is from a few weeks, go, but there will be blood. Paul Thomas Anderson's film about this kind of oil tycoon in deep America who essentially exploits this town to get the oil from them and becomes this like multi-millionaire. It's like, I think it's from the 1800s, maybe even earlier. It's a lot of

men talking. Paul Dano's in it. I first started watching it and I thought, I don't think there's a woman in this film who talks. So I had to get over that. But once I got over it, my God, it is such good film. Daniel DeLewis is just like, I think probably the biggest talent we have on earth right now. I have never watched this, but I need to go into that. Sounds absolutely amazing. It's so good, so good. He plays this like megalomaniac. So you see him just become the most unhinged, horrible dictator type figure, but it's so good. Okay, I'm adding that to my to be watched pile, which is extremely long because I keep just rewatching all things instead of watching the recommendations. So I wanted to ask you, did you see?

I am really excited. Obviously, we're off the back of Emerald Fennell's now hotly controversial Wuthering Heights adaptation that Dolly Alderton released in collaboration with Netflix, the trailer for her Pride and Prejudice, with Emma Corrin as Elizabeth Bennett and Jack Clowden as Mr Darcy. Have you read the comments under the Netflix post? And also, what are you feeling about this adaptation? Are you excited? Are you scared?

So I did take a look under the comments and I saw quite a few funny kind of back and forth between what is the best adaptation, whether it's the Colin Firth one or the Kira Knightley version with Matthew McFadden and the people be battling in the comments. I weirdly don't feel any type of way about this. I'm intrigued to see what the adaptation looks like but people are getting mad and I'm not feeling that. What about you? I was so shocked like all the comments were basically like we already had Pride and Purchase at home the 2005 version like nothing will ever beat this I think because I hadn't realized initially that Dolly's post was in collaboration with Netflix I actually felt really bad for her

because I imagine that a lot of those commenters are just coming from like Netflix's page rather than directly from Dolly's whereas I'm actually really excited to see what she does I love Dolly Oldton I'm really interested in her career and I just am excited to see how she takes this adaptation but the biggest thing that everyone was just saying was Basie that they think like Jack Loudon's too ugly to play Darcy or like not saucy enough Oh God And I just, you get this like three second clip of him on a horse

and everyone is going absolutely nuts being like he's just not hot enough I actually think he could be really good Mr Darcy That is so rude Imagine being cast as this figure and then seeing the commentary and you're really excited The first trailer's been dropped And everyone's calling you ugly or like

Just like not good enough that's so, that's so outrageous. I think Mr. Darcy is all about vibes. I don't know if I've said this before, but some of these kind of thorny, difficult love interest in films or stories, it's not about how they look, it's about how they vibe or how they emote. And even in challenges, I know this is such a ridiculous example. But in the trailer, when it came out like two years before the actual film came out because of COVID,

I was like, who are these two guys? They're not, they're not vibe enough. They're not, like, sexy enough to pull off these parts. My God, was I proven wrong. Josh O'Connor and everything he's done time and time again has proven to be one of the vibeest actors I have ever seen. And it just, I don't know, I just don't think you can go off a still, a trailer. I think people have to suspend their judgment and also remember some of the people we fancy

the most are not the, like, traditional, good-looking heartthrob types. What do you think? Yeah, I also just do, I do think Jack Loudoun's quite good looking. And also, Matthew McFadden is not, I would say, like a traditional extreme heartthrob just from looking at him. But he does possess the Mr. Darcy. And I do, Colin Fath, to me, is just like such a gorgeous man that he is very sexy and very good Mr. Darcy. But despite how much all of us kind of weren't blown away by Wuthering Heights, I am very open-minded and open-hearteded for this adaptation. and I really want, for Dolly's sake, for it to do really well.

Yeah, I know, me too. I remember listening to her and Caroline O'Donohue talk about the fact that she's, they kind of loosely talk about her taking on this big project and how people are very attached to certain IPs such as Pride and Prejudice, Wuthering Heights, these very beloved stories, and how much of the fandom, you know, has opinions on everything. So I think it's very hot water to step. into and I didn't realize that until we saw this and then Wuthering Heights.

I know. I mean, I do think it is an interesting choice with Pride and Prejudice because there have been so many adaptations, but that I forget that the Kiranitey one was 2005. That makes it 21 years old. That feels like five years ago. So fair enough, maybe we are ready for another one. Doing a slight pivot, I'm pretty sure you are not part of the kind of Katzai fandom like I am. But did you see that one of the members essentially has taken a hiatus from the group? I do see things about this. And I really, I don't understand any of it. But I would like you to explain it to me because since we had Juno Dawson on,

I've sort of had that bookmarked in my mind as something that I should be aware of because she was such a big fan of the group and the show. Was Katzai on that show? Yeah, Pop Star Academy on Netflix. I would like you to explain it all to me because I feel like a boomer who just sort of like goes, Oh, that's nice. Well, that's how I feel. I feel like a million years old watching them just perform and do great things.

Essentially, it's a girl group of six members. And on that show, they collated people from across the world. It was this giant project by Hybe and Geffon, who are these like two huge power engines in the K-pop industry. And they curated the first kind of non-Korean K-pop group, which sounds bizarre, but it's becoming increasingly a thing in K-pop. And Manon, who is this gorgeous, incredible member in the group, she is a black woman, one of the only black women in the group, has taken a hiatus. And there's been this kind of side story that's come up alongside her announcing that she's going on a break, which is people making the point that in girl groups, a lot of the only black female members tend to be victim of racism.

they have a very unique experience in those groups and are never given the support that they need. And some very eagle-eyed viewers notice that Manon liked a post talking about that issue. So now there's this side story talking about whether she is also another victim to this issue. And people like Cizor and Chloe Bailey are basically coming out in support of Manon. And it's dividing all the fan base. Some people are boycotting the group saying that until Manon is supported and comes back, they don't want to listen to them. People are just kind of divided about the whole thing because the group have only been going for about a year and a bit and they won a Grammy recently. So it feels like the hottest time in their career and now this is all falling apart.

That's so much. And so there hasn't been any official statement. We don't actually know what's happened. So there was an official statement from the Katzai group and it said that she's taking a break in a hiatus. Manon posted her own saying that she's healthy, she's okay, she's taking care, she's taking care of herself. And then she added, sometimes things unfold in ways we don't fully control, but I'm trusting the bigger picture. And she said that on Friday. So it's, it's, it's very confusing language because that last bit does sound like something bad or something dubious has happened. It is mad because you're like you said, they're such a young group and they've blown up so much. I mean, it's almost kind of giving the spice girls in terms of like massive exposure

and then kind of dissipating quite quickly. Well, do you, if you, I don't think I have a girl group that I love, but like if that happened with a girl group that you love and someone left, would you feel invested enough to stop engaging with their music? It's really hard. I do think something about this feels kind of sour and makes me wonder about what's going on behind the scenes. So it feels hard to engage with it in the same way that it was before. I don't know what's going to happen to them. I just know myself this feels like a bad sign and I don't know how they're going to keep going to keep it on the K-pop side of things, but more my side of things, which is like total misunderstanding of the whole situation.

There was basically a show recently where families thought that the show was centered around the children's movie, K-pop Demon Hunters, because the posters kind of resembled the film's characters. And then it was reported that children were left in tears and their parents were furious after mistakenly buying tickets to an inappropriate K-pop concert featuring suggestive dancing and swearing. The families were left mortified at the say witness dancers gyrating on stage and performing in skimpy costumes. So basically they thought that it was the K-pop Deval Hunter's movie, like a live action thing of that, but it was actually just like a K-pop performance. And apparently a mother told the son, I'm not approved, but I don't want my daughter watching nipples flying, singing about ice cream and coming home singing swear words.

The dancers look like they've forgotten their underwear, she added. Oh my God. I know it's not funny because if you're a parent at that gig, that would be one of the worst things you could have inadvertently found yourselves doing. Like that's not great, but something about this feels so silly. And I am sorry, obviously I'm a childless person, so I'm not trying to make light of it. But even that quote, it just, it sounds silly. Also, when I was younger, we did, I used to go around to France House and we watch music videos and even when they were sexually explicit, like, you're just not taking that away from it. They're just sort of like singing along. You don't know what they're saying. You don't really

understand. Like, I used, I remember doing performances for my parents and I'd be like seven. And I'd like, come in here and I've muddled the chas and I'd just be like slap dropping for like 10 minutes. Oh my God. Like to Shakira Hipstone. No, it wasn't Hipstone. It was the one about having small breasts like mountains. I used to love that song. Oh, God.

I do relate to that. I remember doing a performance to, I think it was like some summer school children's club thing that I had to go to because my parents were working. And I did cheeky girls, a performance with me, my friend. And obviously it's touch my bum. I used to love that song. Eight years old. Did, you know, gyrope my friend.

bum to all of the kind of adults in the room and here we are today. I think it's fine, but I mean, it is, it is funny. I mean, is that on the parents maybe to have done a bit more research, perhaps? I do think there's something here about, you know, K-pop is a massive industry, it's a massive genre. It's not just K-pop demon hunters. And that's, I think that's why I'm finding it a bit silly because I think there must have been something, some kind of lack of research, some kind of maybe misunderstanding about the genre because Katzai is a very sexy band and that's, you know, in a different league to a lot of the kind of children's friendly PG versions of K-pop. So I think with it blowing up in popularity and with K-pop demon hunters, there's obviously

not maybe an appreciation for what the genre is in totality. So I have no idea if you actually care anything about James Bond. I feel like this is something we have a gap in our conversations about but I recently got into them and especially the Daniel Craig one so I feel very invested in the whole who's going to be the next James Bond. This is where the Venn diagram overlaps because obviously Jacob Lordy stand over there. Did you see that he apparently has been getting a lot of backing from bookies as being the next James Bond and everyone's plastering his picture everywhere for it? Yes but I actually have been like a quite a big fan of James Bond since I was little because my dad is obsessed with James Bond.

So I've always loved the films. And actually, even though I do like Jacob Lordy, I don't think he's my James Bond. I think he's too sweet and like nerdy. Maybe that could make an interesting bond. But I do think Daniel Craig was really strong in it. Maybe Kalantarana could have the chops. I don't know.

Basically, I just want them to cast someone. But I think it is because now Amazon owns the whole of Bond. Maybe this is actually going to happen sooner rather than later. It's been a long, long time coming. I agree with you. I love Jacob Allardy, but I also feel like, to put on my PR strategist hat, he's doing the blockbuster indie balancing act so perfectly. It feels so bizarre to then take on a massive franchise where you will be that person

and remembered as that person likely for the rest of your career, especially with him being so young in it. I feel like he's got so many years of doing these bizarre, interesting roles before doing a massive franchise. But also just from like a technical perspective, he wouldn't be allowed to be a spy. Isn't he like six foot five, six at seven? I don't think you, if you're a spy, I don't you, you can be like, you can't have anything like super obvious features. If you're really tall, if you stand out, it would make you a really bad spy because you're really detectable and obvious. I only know this because my partner is obsessed with like spy books and stuff.

And I said to him like, why didn't you be a spy? And he just looks me and went too tall. Oh my God. I was like, really. And he was like, yeah, genuinely you can't because you're too conspicuous. I mean that makes total sense but well flex being like can't too good looking too tall. Maybe I'm maybe that's why I'm not as far because I did used to really want to be a spy but maybe I'm just too short. No, I think you're too hot. I think that's the problem. No, I think the spies and films are always really hot. Maybe I could be a honey trapper. Yeah, I actually could imagine like I'm not even taking the piss or trying to like gas up your ass but I actually think it could be a really good honey trapper. I think that's quite dangerous job. Oh damn yeah. Yeah, you sometimes got killed.

Anoni We were all rooting for you We were all ruining for you If you haven't been brain-addled And you don't know what this means strap in, we've got a lot to tell you There is obviously the new America's Next Top Model documentary

Which allegedly gives us an unfiltered and balanced look into the unbelievably problematic world of that show The question is, did it actually do any of that? So for anyone who hasn't watched it, Netflix released Reality Check America's next top model on the 16th of Feb, and it was a three separate hour-long episode which dove into the creation of the show, which was hosted and created by Tyra Banks, and then briefly,

Rita Orr. The show did focus on the many, many scandals that happened during its 24 seasons or cycles, as we now call them, and how it all fell apart. We're here from many former contestants, as well as former judges Jay, Miss Jay Alexander, and Nigel Barker, creative director, on set and Jay Manuel. But most controversially, Tyro Banks also appears and has her say something that people are having a lot of feelings about, which we will obviously get into. So the scandals, and I mean, the problem is we genuinely could do a whole episode on this one show, so we can't list them all. But to highlight a few, there were contestants who were pressured to have irreversible cosmetic dental procedures that they didn't want, put into situations

with male models on set that crossed boundaries and even crossed into sexual assault, forced to pose as gunshot victims despite having close family members who are paralyzed by gun violence, fat shamed by judges and made up into different races, often in blackface for photo challenges. In one of the more upsetting segments and trigger warning, I know I've just mentioned it, but we're going to be talking about sexual violence. A former contestant Shandy talks about how she, after drinking two bottles of wine on a trip to Milan and barely having any food that day, was filmed in the shower and in bed with a man

who she says took advantage of her. Rather than stepping in, production filmed this, as well as the heartbreaking conversation she had the following day with her boyfriend. To quote a piece for the independent, quote, neither Sullivan nor the documentary explicitly refers to this as sexual assault, but the original A&M footage suggests

she was way too drunk to consent. Through tears, Sullivan said in the documentary that she was, quote, blacked out for a lot of it. I just knew sex was happening and then I passed out. There's been so much commentary and rightly so about this documentary, but here are some tweets from the viewers to give you a sense of how it's all been received. From at David Gross underscore man, quote, My wife wanted to show me the A&M documentary on Netflix,

and now I believe Tyro Banks should be charged with crimes against humanity. From at Chloe for three, quote, The A&M doc reminded me of how fucking sinister and pervasive the body fat shaming of the 2000s was my God. Another one from At Nuel play. Watching this Netflix A&M documentary and all I can say is Tyra Banks needs to pay for her crimes. So obviously there's so much to go into, but what do you think? I mean personally, I remember watching the show right from the beginning to some of the later seasons all throughout being a teenager and I've got very strong feelings about this documentary. What were your thoughts? I remember watching it with my sisters. I can remember it so vividly. I recognized all of the

models when they showed them from their seasons. I did not watch it when Jay and Miss Jay and Nigel left, because I don't really remember that happening. And I did not have any recollection of Rita Orra then hosting it. So I watched it basically when it was in its first iteration. I thought it was interesting. Tari Banks sat there with her trench coat button up to the top, although it wasn't buttoned up. It was funny that she had a coat on the whole time. And they did not hold her to account for anything. But then they didn't shy away from showing the things that happened on that show and exposing just how some of the scenes were. Interestingly, I don't think I was shocked at the time, I think, because I was a child.

I just absorbed it. And there's a moment where one of the talking heads said, so many girls that came away from the show with an eating disorder and it informed so much how you thought about your body. It definitely informed me. I remember those girls standing up there being really thin and just being told that they had a gut and a belly and all that stuff. And again, not thinking that it was wrong when I was watching it, just thinking I was wrong. My body was wrong.

but there was an interesting post that I read from Alex Olivia Jones, who's a journalist, and she said, if Tyra Banks, as American Next Top Models creator, is personally responsible for anything, it's for holding a magna flying glass up to the exploitative, racist, fat-phobic machinery of the fashion beauty media industrial complex, and letting us look through it. She didn't invent the machinery. She didn't build or fund it or design it. She grew up inside it, was measured and judged by it, survived it, and they made a TV show in which its internal logic played out visibly for anyone who cared to.

watch. And I do think that's an interesting, well-thought-out argument, but I think you can't really come away from watching that show and not think that there was a real lack of care and even somewhat slightly like malicious intent behind some of the construction of the show, especially towards the end of the documentary when they talk about how they would often not pull the model's best pictures because they had calculated who they wanted to come in for certain things. I had forgotten about the specific model that you mentioned, the one that ends up cheating on her boyfriend. I'd forgotten that they had shown the act of her basically being paralytic

and being assaulted by this guy, then being fostering her boyfriend, her being called like a slut and a haul by her boyfriend on the phone, on TV, then being taken to a clinic, all being filmed. And she even says, you know, the producer's like, I'm really sorry that we had to do that. I think even though it was a different time, I don't know how that wasn't seen as exploitative, especially as the show, and it does recognise this in the documentary.

A lot of the women that applied to go on this modelling show were from difficult backgrounds. We're trying to move up in the world. These girls were like fighting for their lives and hoping that this opportunity would give them that. And it just exploited them further. And that's where it's really quite hard to swallow. And I find it hard to agree with Alex's point that Tyra is simply a passive participant in a pre-existing world. Yeah, I'm with you on that last point. I guess to start off with as well when you're talking about how vulnerable they are, I watched an episode a few weeks ago with some friends because we knew this documentary was coming out and we were like, oh, it might be fun to watch a few of the old episodes. I think maybe we started series five from the makeovers and watched two. I forgot that so many of the girls are not, you know, mid-20s, which is also young. They are 17, 18, 19 on this show. They're so young. so, so, so young operating in this show. So when you talk about how vulnerable they are,

they are, to me, some of the most vulnerable people, not only challenging backgrounds, but also in age and obviously vulnerable status. I do actually really agree with you. When you read that quote out from Alex, I could just feel myself shaking my head and just getting really frustrated. I don't think that's good enough. I don't think that's true. If you really believe that creating culture and having a voice in the world of television and media and putting product out there and especially in taking people involving them in that is a neutral stance. I don't know what to say to you because I've, I mean, I think because I think I've thought about this very deeply when it comes to having previously worked at various news institutions

and their impact in recent news events such as how they report on Palestine, how they report on things in the US, their impact. It really touches a nerve for me because it's something I'm frustrated with constantly where I think news is not neutral, creating a documentary is not neutral, all of these things have such a massive impact on people's lives, on their understanding of stories. I don't think Tyro Banks creating this show, giving this voice more airtime, transporting it into its highest seven million people's TVs at the height of its fame per episode is a neutral thing. gave that voice in the modelling industry, which was so specific and isolated to our industry, a mainstream platform. Yes, she was a victim to it. That's what also complicates it. I think

she's so unbelievably talented. I think her catwalk is one of the best of our lifetimes. She eats a runway. I think she's so tenacious. I think she's an interesting, if not difficult figure to understand because of how she also contributed and also platformed many of those issues so that everyday people understood that their bodies were not good enough, that their skin colour was not good enough, that critical voice is something that they should take on themselves to whittle themselves into a better position and to be beautiful. I think that's what complicates all of this. So I don't think Alex's point is right. And I also had a bit of grief watching this show, just thinking about all the things that I internalised growing up. And same as you, I also struggled

with an eating disorder at 15. I also know that this show was part of my daily TV appetite and kind of thinking back to what that impact had made me feel really sad. There was a really good piece in The Guardian from Al Hunt, which I think taps on what we're both trying to get to because it is complicated and it was a different time. Like I said, I as a viewer, although I was a child, couldn't pinpoint that this was wrong because that was the culture I was existing in. But in this Guardian piece, Al Hunt says, though the judges display more contrition,

than mock and banks, all involved eager to agree the series falls short of 2026 standards. What reality check makes clear, however, but fails to emphasise enough, is that many contestants expressed distress at the time and were manipulated or pressured into participating. She goes on to say the documentary does them a disservice by persistently framing top model as a product of its time and criticism is coming only from woke gen Z. For a show about beauty, top model was always ugly, but reality checks conclusions are only skin deep. And I think that's the other thing. It's like, yes, it was a time when outwardly fat-shaming someone was normal.

It was a time they talk about, and Jay talks about this, when the producers say, we want a white straight guy on the show and they hire Nigel Barker. And he was like, that was the time we were living in. There was too many people of colour on the show. They wanted someone that was like this. That's probably not something you would say in 2026. And it's outrageous that it was something that they said back then. And that was harmful to the people working on that.

show. So it's like there are there are obviously things that are products at the time that when we look back now we can reflect and say God we were all really wrong to to have allowed these things to happen. But you can't really contest with the fact that the people on the show, the women were telling you that they were uncomfortable, we're telling you that they were unhappy, we're trying to say no, I don't consent to doing X, Y, Z and just ratings, reviews and the producer's final word was the final word. And I think that's where it's like, Is that culture or is that actually quite like a toxic abusive workplace? No, I think that's, I think that's exactly right.

And I think that is that is really the thing that transforms this from a retrospective that thinks, oh God, weren't things different back then to, no, you have not held these people accountable for a very toxic, very damaging, very vicious workplace that exploited them. and I started binging the podcast curse of America's Next Top Model, which I think does an excellent job of actually holding these people to account. And I'm just going to go through some of the things that I picked up from that. So we spoke about Shannon. Firstly, in that documentary, before I go on to the podcast and a lot of the allegations,

the thing I found so deeply upsetting, they speak about what happened to Shannon. They have the interview with Shannon now. And then they just move on to, oh, but the show is performing really well. and it just jumped straight into the girl boss narrative of this show really was breaking boundaries. You don't even have a second to contemplate the magnitude of what they did to Shannon before they move on to the storytelling of the success of A&M. So I think that's one of the failures. They cannot hold space for any of the negatives without just trying to flurry you back onto the narrative that this was an amazing show.

One of the things I remember, actually, is Adrian Curry is one of the first winners of the season. she has said that she never got any of the prizes they promised her. She never got the deal with Wilhelmina agents. She never got on the Revlon contract that she was promised. She said that the contract she signed announces that any of the prizes that they stay on the show are at the show's discretion, even if they shared that the winner has received all of them. She never received a dime, never received anything.

There's another contestant called Anjali, who won All-Stars and was stripped of her title. There's a big long read on Bustle that we'll put in. into the show notes, but Angoli's story is so deeply distressing. Trigger warnings, skip ahead five minutes. I'm going to talk about sex trafficking here. But Angeli, after appearing on the show previously before appearing again as All-Stars, couldn't get any kind of modelling jobs because of her association with the show, which is something that many models talk about, A&M thrust them into the spotlight, promising them opportunities. Whether they won or didn't win, anyone actually in the modeling industry associated the show with some kind of, you know, embarrassment, not actual credit

in terms of being a model. So they never received any jobs. Angelie found herself getting sex trafficked because of that, because of the lack of money and her essentially becoming homeless through the show. And A&M finding this after she appeared again and won, I think it was cycle 24 or something, maybe a bit before, stripped her of her title because of the morality clause that they'd got her to sign in the contract and awarded it to the runner up and then they just pretended like it never happened and they punished her for essentially being a victim of something that was in relation to her appearing in the show and struggling to meet ends meet. There is just so many examples. Another person, Elise and a contestant, they discussed her potentially having an eating disorder

on the show and then they got a fitness trainer to weigh her and all of them on the show and read out their measurements, compare them, speculated about her having an eating disorder and then eventually let her go without any kind of support. There's so many examples in this podcast that really made me squirm because it was so, so, so, so appalling. It does remind me a bit, obviously not to the same lengths, but of shows like Britain's got talent and those kind of like contestant shows where they would kind of, people were put up for her humiliation basically for public consumption and entertainment.

And so that was like a culture thing. It's so gross to think about that we would consume that. and now looking back it does feel wild. But there's some things that still, when you're watching it, you can't believe. Like there's the photo shoot where they do race switching and, you know, some of the girls are put into blackface. There's the one where they're made to pretend like they are fentanyl addicts. There's one where there's a girl's pretending to be bulimic. One of the models is asked to act like she's been shot when her mother was killed through being shot.

It's like the levels of trauma that they're trying to use in order to get. these models to promote and also to get the audience to engage. There is a sense that they knew what they were doing was wrong, but that they really didn't care. It was about fame. And I think in Tyra's interviews, as much as she refuses to engage with it, there's a moment when they want her to speak about the way that her relationship broke down with Jay. And she says, you know, he's a really great guy. I want to talk to him privately, which they show straight after Jay has kind of been a bit more forthcoming about it. Like the framing of her is definitely to seem as though she's kind of really sweet and she regrets it and right at the end she goes, you know,

there's nothing better than being made to be held accountable for the stupid stuff you did in the past. Thank you so much and I hope that happens for you guys as well and it's like, but what have you said, you haven't apologised, you haven't actually acknowledged, you just said right at the end I think she goes, let's look forward to cycle 25. Has she learned anything? Does she feel any kind of guilt around it? Because it is heinous and I know that some contestants have come forward and said like, I don't think she should be cancelled because it is a really tricky tangled web. Tireobanks is a victim to this.

She has been fat shame. She has faced racism. She was a pioneer in the supermodel space as a black woman. And it's difficult when that she's also perpetuating these things onto other people. But I think there's just so many truths happening here at the same time. And I have to say that like that Shannon storyline, I kept thinking about it after watching the episode, that that would just ruin your life at that stage in your life to go through that experience.

to be basically sexually assaulted, she's incapacitated, she's so drunk, for that not only to be shown on TV, for that to even happen, for there not to be any kind of safeguarding where people go, come in and say, actually, do you know what? Because at one point the producer, someone says on the show that, like, we obviously were at that point, you know, responsible for the person's welfare. And it's like, okay, but then if you've got these young women in this situation, someone should have come in and pulled them out. And they even said that within like days of editing that episode, there was the Super Bowl where Janet Jackson had her like wardrobe malfunction where she showed her nipple and then TV licensing or whatever like change what you're

allowed to broadcast. So they had to go in and re-edit the show so that it didn't include the bits of them, I think, in the shower when they're actually having sex. But I don't know if you can put it all under the umbrella of sort of like this is just how it was because that eliminates kind of any agency within the show TV making and the people making the show to understand right from wrong. And also to make clear, I think there's a narrative kind of bubbling up of, well, how much is Tyro Banks supposed to be accountable for this? She was the presenter. She was an exec producer. Obviously, she partnered with Ken Mock, who is a big kind of titan in the reality TV industry. Surely he's more to blame. But I don't think you can have both ways. She said that

she founded the show in 2002. She's the one that really drove it. She had so much control over the show. It was her baby. Ken Mark was the most amazing partner because he gave her creative license. I don't think you can have that narrative. You can push that and then wipe your hands of it and say, you know, the TV execs were saying this and I had to move this. I think you either take control and accountability for what you produced and you put out into the world or you say, I had no control over this. I was a figurehead. And I don't think there's any kind of accountability that I have seen from her on this. And also having done a bit of a deep dive on Ken mock with the podcast that I mentioned. He also made a show called Making the Band, which had Diddy

and a man called Lou Pearlman as the kind of celebrity judges. And obviously we know what's happened with Diddy since a lot of the allegations of sexual abuse, racketeering, etc., etc. Some of the contestants on that specific show had allegations about Diddy's treatment of them years later. So I do think there is a pattern here with the kinds of TV that were being made with this, you know, individual directly. So it's not outrageous for many of the contestants now to be speaking out and saying, I was exploited. This was inhumane. I went through these terrible, terrible things that I've never been able to move on from because there is another show by this person as well, where people are saying the exact same thing. And I also think if you're wondering,

why are these people speaking at now in this documentary in the podcast? They talk about a lot of the contracts they signed, signed away their ability to speak out. They had clauses saying you cannot speak out for 10 years, otherwise you have to pay us back $5 million. And they would be expressly told that will mean your children, your children's children will be paying us back for an insurmountable amount of time. So they gagged them. They silenced and they gagged them. And there was no way for them to speak out. Obviously now it has probably been around 10 years since they appeared on these shows, which is why they're speaking out. that is so wild i mean even that shows a level of intent behind the kind of show you're making

if you're fearful about how your contestants are going to react and i know we also did do an episode about the biggest loser documentary again which is about we do have to have a reckoning i think as a culture about how these shows can be so deprived and sink so low and i'm glad this documentary exists because an accent model is something that exists in my brain has actually show that I loved at the time and I do remember it being I really remember the fat shaming and because I've processed my relationship with food and my body so much in my early 20s I did reflect on that but I kind of forgotten the lengths and extents to the ways that these young women were exploited and I just feel desperately sad for them because the thing is like most of them say

a lot of them have gone on to have really interesting diverse careers like very few of them are models but they all seem to be doing like pretty well and pretty happy in themselves, but they did not get the value out from that show, especially when you can consider like how traumatising it was for a lot of those contestants. If anything, it was kind of like one of the worst things that could have happened to them and like, where is the aftercare now? It just doesn't feel good enough. So I know it's a bleak watch, but I think for any kind of millennial naughty's kid who was tuning into that show, it is a really difficult but important watch, I would say. And we're always really curious to know.

your thoughts. So please do DM us or let us know in the comments on Spotify. We'd love to hear your thoughts. More TV news. So a new limited series from Ryan Murphy's anthology franchise has captured the minds and hearts of the internet, myself included. And it documents the intense well-win romance and subsequent tragic marriage of John F. Kennedy Jr., played by Paul Anthony Kell and Carolyn Bessette played by Sarah Pigeon. Based on Elizabeth Bella's book, Once Upon a Time, The Captivating Life of Carolyn Bessette Kennedy. The show explores their rise as a 90s-It couple

while highlighting the immense, often suffocating pressure of fame, paparazzi and legacy. Images of Carolyn have flooded the internet with round-ups of her best outfits, and I even found myself wanting to throw my Maximilus wardrobe out the window in favour of the paired-back 90s minimalism. And although viewers are absolutely loving the show, there has been pushback. So Jack Schlossberg posted a video on his Instagram stories stating,

for the record, I think admiration for my Uncle John is great. What I don't think is great is profiting off it in a grotesque way. And he confirmed that the Kennedy family was never approached or consulted about the production, noting that because his uncle was a public figure, there's not really much we can do about it to stop it. Some social media users have actually agreed with this take, and someone on X posted the whole concept of creating a show around a deceased woman who will deliberately boring outfits to avoid being photographed and then having the internet argue about whether the actress's hair is the right shade of blonde is bizarre to me. Is this not necrophilia? When Jack Schlossberg called it out for being grotesque, Murphy essentially responded with,

you didn't know her well enough. Is this not weird? Other criticism comes from Emma Specter for Vogue, who wrote, Love Story is doing Daryl Hannah dirty. Love Story's portrayal of Hannah as a whiny, coke-obsessed prima donna, who somehow quates losing her beloved pet dog with Kennedy, losing his mother, at Jackie Kennedy's wake, doesn't quite ring true. Indeed, if I were Hannah, I consider sewing, she writes. And it feels like there's a bit of a generational divide with younger fans, Gen Z, younger millennials, being really obsessed with the romantic tragedy of it all, and the kind of older viewers who do remember the couple and the 1999 crash when it happened, being much more cynical and critical. And there's also a 2003 vanity fair piece titled Secret and Lies

by Edward Klein that has resurfaced, which alludes John F. Kennedy, Jr., and Carolyn Bessette's marriage was in crisis featuring claims of separation, drug use and violent arguments. But a lot of their friends have disputed the allegations. I feel like there's so much we could discuss when it comes to the show from John's magazine George, which I didn't know about and I'm now obsessed with, to the nostalgia of the 90s and obviously the problem of dramatizing real life events. But maybe we did cover that quite a lot in our Lucy Letby bonus, which you can go and listen to if you haven't yet. Do you have a place that you want to start with this show, Ruchera, and have you been enjoying it?

Oh my God, it's so sumptuous to watch. And it's so glamorous. I like that it's, it is really almost rose-tinted. It's got this kind of like dreamy-esque quality to it. It feels like it is actually short of the 90s. The clothes I'm actually dying from gagged every single second. I love the minimalism. I'm the same as you. I just keep thinking maybe I should paint my desk at home black, paint everything white around the walls and just like throw my entire wardrobe out apart from a desktop in some black smart trousers, some loafers. Oh, so good. When you were talking about the pushback to this family being exploited allegedly for this show, it's really hard because I really understand that sentiment. And even obviously last year, Julia Fox dressed up as Jackie Kennedy

after John F. Kennedy had been shot and she had the blood on her costume and the kind of suiting as well. and she got a lot of, lot of criticism for the imagery and the exploitation of that tragedy and the image of Jackie Kennedy at the time, obviously, since then, Jackie Anassas. And it does feel like maybe we've come to a part of pop culture that is ready to make that iconography and to see that as like beautiful imagery, tumbler-esque pictures and kind of remove the kind of context behind it because it feels like to many of us that is so far in the past, even though for our parents, it really isn't. And it makes me think about the crown as well. I guess the UK aristocracy, the royal family, we're not consulted about the Netflix show, even though for them that is very

recent history. And I think the Kennedy is the Onassis family, to me, because I'm so detached geographically, feels like possibly how Americans feel about our royal family. It's very glamorous, feels like this American nostalgia dynasty. It feels so detached from me, which is why I can enjoy it, but I do appreciate that. What do you think? Yeah, so I, I just loved it. Like, I was really enjoying it. And then I read all of this and I started to feel this like residual gilk. So I was like, oh, no, not another thing that I'm not supposed to be enjoying. Same as you. I thought the clothes are beautiful. I've been craving kind of a show like this. And there's so much revisionist history going on that I'm not really sure what's true and what's not. But there's loads of stuff people are saying now that, you know, actually Carrie Bradshaw was based on Carolyn Bessette because I didn't know this either, but of her. John JFK, Jr. dated Sarah Jessica Parker before like another girlfriend. And then you start seeing all these parallels. And I think it does capture something about the 90s that I'm just obsessed with. And I've then seen videos from women who used to work at Calvin Klein in the 90s. There was one woman who was like, I was there just a few years. I just missed Carolyn. She's saying how like Calvin would often come into the office. You were not allowed to look at him and talk to him. She was saying how you weren't allowed red roses on her desk. You had to have white flowers. You weren't allowed to wear any makeup. You would not allow to have your nails done. You had to wear black and white. It was all really interesting. So it's like blending so many

worlds that I love. It's like the devil wears Prada. It's the sex and the city. It's the 90s. It's glamorous and it's gorgeous. At the same time as I do understand when someone feels like that's your family. We're only four episodes in at the time of recording. So I guess it doesn't feel grotesque yet. I understand the Daryl Hannah argument because if they have really misrepresented her and she's still alive, that is quite wild. But like you said, it's very rose tinted. It's very glamorized and it's pretty complimentary, I'd say, about the family. And so, but I guess because we know what's coming, the tragedy and the circumstances around their untimely deaths, it can be seen as grotesque. But then to like link it back to the dramatization of real life events like we spoke about, I guess the difference here is they are, you know, a public figure, family, even though a lot of the story about Carolyn Bessette was the fact that she absolutely hated being photographed.

She absolutely hated being in the public eye. It's one of the reasons in the show, at least, why JFK Jr. is so drawn to her. So I guess there is, is there a perversion in digging up this woman's history for consumption, a woman who so desperately didn't want to be seen? Yeah, it's so hard because although John F. Kennedy Jr. is part of this media circus, she never really signed up for that in a way and just, having a romantic relationship with him. What rights do you sign away? I don't really subscribe to

the idea that through having a relationship with him, she automatically signs up to his life. I don't think that's fair. So yeah, it's quite, it's quite an uncomfortable discussion because, as you say, I'm enjoying the show. So I kind of want to benefit from having a positive take about it. But I don't think that's the right way to talk about it. I think that's quite selfish. I don't know where I sit with it. I am really interested to hear what listeners think about it, because I think I need to hash it out. do you think probably it's not great that we're digging up recent history and profiting from it, especially when there is a family still directly linked to those people. And no matter how wealthy and, you know, Jack Schlossberg has nothing in common with me, even though it might feel like he

is part of this circle and like, who am I to care about how he feels about this? I think that's quite, I think it's fair enough that he feels very upset. And I feel like being a living relative of these people, it's understandable that at the very least he could have been consulted or asked. I do think that's fair. On the Sex and the City thing, I have to actually jump in and be annoying and say, Carolyn Bassett is definitely not Carrie Bradshaw because I don't know if you saw this. There was this post that went viral over the weekend that shows Candice Bushnell, aka the real Carrie Bradshaw, the Sex and the City writer who Carrey Bradshaw is directly based on, hated Carolyn Bessette. She wrote this piece called Spoiled in the City. She married the world's most eligible

bachelor and inherited way more than a nasty habit for popping pills is something rotten in Soho. And it was introducing this new series where she wrote a quote unquote fictionalized piece that was very clearly Carolyn Bessette talking about the fact that her husband cheats on her all the time, that she has a pill problem, really nasty and mean-spirited. And there's now all of this law coming to light about both of them operating in the same circles, being these gorgeous blondes, sleeping with the same people in the city and this kind of rivalry between Candice Bushnell and Carolyn Passett. And now people are pointing to the fact that Natasha in Sex and the City is actually the Carolyn Basset because she's quote-unquote so beige, so beige as Mr. Big starts yelling about her when he's

tired of their marriage. She works at Ralph Lauren. She's dressed in minimalism and she's gorgeous. And people are now saying that Mr. Big is the John F. Kennedy Jr. and obviously ends up with the Candace Bushnell in the show. Yes, so I did see that after. I mean, it's so amazing how it fits in because it's obviously just that is so of its time, this whole like 90s capsule. I love that all these people were existing in the same orbit and that I just, I think that's the thing that really gets it for me and I saw someone say this. I just want to be an adult in 1994 for like one now, one day, please someone just let me be like walking around New York. And it does make me feel that way. Like there is, there's just something about it. I think we all romanticised

the 90s quite a lot. I was feeling like it was quite politically stable. It was just a better time to be alive. And I think that's maybe why we always go back to sex in the city. It's obviously like pre phones and stuff. And I do, I am really obsessed with the law, but there obviously is all this darker stuff behind it. And a lot of people are also drawing conclusions around the imagery that was really famous of JFK Jr. and Callan, when they'd have these, like, huge fights in the park. And, like, at the time, everyone was like, oh, my God, they're kind of twin flames, their soulmates. There's lots of quotes from friends and families saying, you know, they were really like soulmates. But through, like, a 2026 therapy, woke lens, a lot of people saying this was clearly like a domestic

abuse, like relationship. And they clearly were really unhappy. And it's doing a real disservice to young women to be promoting a relationship like this to the public eye. And then The episode that I thought was really interesting. I don't know how far our listeners have got into it. If you've watched it, definitely do watch. But this is something that happened in real life, which is JFK Jr. gets sent a letter, an anonymous letter about Carolyn and kind of who she is and who she slept with and this idea that actually she's really

tracked him down, whereas he's attracted to her because she's quite elusive and turns down his advances multiple times. And this makes them actually break up and they broke up in real life because he took that letter as kind of, apparently they're in a rest of. restaurant together. This sort of says in the original book and he kind of throws the letter at her and storms out and then they broke up for ages. But that is really interesting because it's the fact that it's got kind of quite real life stuff. And I didn't know about this couple, but that that kind of does make me feel a bit murky because it does seem like the thing that we

always talk about, or me and my friends talk about now, which is like when someone makes your heart rate really elevated or when you feel like completely obsessed with someone, it's often not going to end up in being a good relationship. And I feel like that is something that we've all come to terms with. And maybe that has permeated through drama and culture now so much so that TV shows really emphasise that. So maybe everyone's kind of enjoying the delusion of being shown this relationship and everyone pretending that this is real love because that's how we used to frame things before. I'm glad you pointed that out because I watched this and I've only watched a few episodes, but I'm really enjoying it partly because I'm seeing them calling this

story and what I've seen of their relationship and the kind of games that they play, JFK Jr, to me, just like kind of acting with impunity at various points and just like floating back in with his gorgeous smile and hair and just like, you know, like just winning her over again in the back and forth. I'm finding it like a deeply ironic show and the beauty of how they both look and the worlds that they operate in and the beauty of those two people being deeply ironic with it being called love story because it's not really a love story. They're both kind of playing games constantly and they're not nice to each other at all times or other people around them. There's a lot of inadvertent cruelty, just kind of like shallowness

and I found it very intentional and I don't know if I'm over reading into it, but I think that feels like it's almost like pulling the curtain on what is a very tumbler, perfect looking couple walking through the street in their minimalist outfits and preppy Ralph Lauren to actually be this very complicated, very difficult couple who have their floors and quite a few of them. It's funny, there's so many takes from people being like, oh my God, this show has taught me, this is how you get a man, you basically just ignore them. No. I know.

It's so funny. It's really like, it's presenting of its time. And I mean, I absolutely love the actress that's paying Carolyn Bessette. I think I find her really enchanting and her both. just so fucking hot. But it's so ridiculous. Like when there's the scene where they're at the dinner and she's sort of like flirting, she was biting her lip and like flicking her hair. And I was like, you couldn't. I just, I just don't think you can actually do that. But it is, it maybe is how that world operates. The other thing that I really cannot get behind. I'm so sorry is Naomi Watts's

accent as Jackie O. Like I'm, I'm glad that partway through the series, she's not in it anymore. And I know that's an awful thing to say. But her accent, I just. found really quite, it just took me out of it too much. It's weird because obviously Jackie O has such a signature voice, but I don't remember when Natalie Portman played her as Jackie in that, you know, like amazing film from a few years ago. I don't remember just being like, what? And I don't know if it's because Naomi what is coming to it with quite, you know,

a strong British accent. So that's like inflecting it with this kind of unnaturalness. But I have the same thing as you. I don't remember Jackie O's sounding like that. Because there's a bit when Caroline and John, the kids of Jackie, in the show, do like an impression of their mum, like her transatlantic accent, and they're better at doing the accent than Naomi is when they're doing an impression. But I have thought the casting is just, like, really beautiful.

I think they absolutely nailed it with Sarah Pigeon, and it's such a tough artist. But my God, she both, like, inflex it with this, like, amazing kind of It Girl energy, this role of Carolyn, and you understand why people were enamored with her, and you understand how she could marry into this hugely wealthy family. There's just like it girls stapled all over her face and her mannerisms. And the fashion circles that she operates in and she just like rises to the top, there's this autobiography by Carol Radzwell.

Carol marries into the family, marries his cousin Anthony Radzwell. And also, fun fact, she becomes a real housewife of New York, which is why I know about this. But essentially her and Carolyn would hang out because the two couples would hang out a bit before their tragic passing. And she would talk about how Carolyn was this amazing energy who she fell in love with it.

It kind of sounded quite suffolk, to be honest. And then she would talk about how Carolyn would then just disappear and not speak to her for weeks. And you know those kind of it girls who float into your life for like a minute, you fall in love with them, you become desperately enamored with them, and then you never see them again.

And I feel like I really get that from this. And all the kind of like small reports that I've seen and heard of Carolyn, it sounds like she's magnetic. And I really get that. Totally. I've read now, I've become so obsessed. So there's this like beautiful photo shoot of Carolyn with her dog that initially was done for something else.

I can't remember what it's for. And then Vanity Fair found out about the photo shoot after her death. And they published it and apparently it became one of the best selling covers of all time. And everyone that's quoted in it just talks about, yeah, how magnetic, how lovely she was to be around and she just had this energy that was so engaging. There is the other side of it

where people are saying she doesn't look Italian enough people are really critical of like her features because Carolyn was very like striking looking she was really beautiful and had this gorgeous

big smile and so some people think that the casting of Sarah Pigeons her pigeon's face is like too perfect or not Italian enough there are people getting kind of cross about it and I loved listening to

Paul was on the Drew Barrymore show and she was talking about how she read that Paul had said he was literally just about to give up on acting before he got this role and she was like it's such a massive thing with actors and apparently they've been constantly just looking they're like we cannot find anyone because obviously JFK Jr was so attractive and also had this thing and people of the time even talk about this like if you go on any video or the comments like I remember watching his videos and you just couldn't help but just be obsessed with him so they definitely had a thing about them as a couple where they were really engaging

But that is always often like a recipe for disaster. But I think they did cast so well. And I love the fact that Paul wasn't like pulled from obscurity, but this role it suits him so well. And I'm so pleased that they found him. I think what we're going to do, we'll all watch the whole series. And then maybe when it ends, we'll come back to it.

Because obviously the darkest parts of the show are yet to come. And so we will discuss when the series wraps our final thoughts. But for now, I think we're maybe guiltily loving it. Thank you so much for. listening this week. Before we go, just checking that you've listened to our latest Everything and Conversation episode where we tackle the tricky topic of motherhood versus friendship. If you enjoy listening to us, I mean, we hope you do. Please do leave us a rating. Please also follow us on Instagram and TikTok at Everything is Content Pod.

See you next week. Bye.