Everything Is Content - Everything In Conversation: Bratz Dolls, Reboot Culture & And Just Like That with Juno Dawson

Episode Date: July 2, 2025

Happy Wednesday - we're back from our little break, hooray, we missed you! Grab a cuppa and please do join us for a mid-week natter.This week's conversation is about the very divisive And Just Like That, reboot culture & the Spice Girls, with the help of the incredible Juno Dawson. Juno is a Sunday Times best-selling novelist, screenwriter, podcaster, and a former columnist for Attitude Magazine. Her books include This Book Is Gay and Clean, as well as her first adult fantasy trilogy Her Majesty's Royal Coven which launched in 2022, becoming an instant best-seller. Many will also know her as the co-host of the hit Sex and the City podcast, So I Got To Thinking.We speak to Juno about why Bratz dolls are c*nt, where And Just Like That misses the mark, and the last novel in her best-selling series.We hope you enjoy the episode - we will see you on Friday :) Byeeeeeee O, R, B xSo I Got To ThinkingHer Majesty's Royal Coven Juno DawsonQueen B Juno DawsonHuman Rites Juno Dawson (pre-order) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm Beth. I'm Rachera. And I'm Anony. And this is Everything in Conversation. This week we're chatting about the very divisive and just like that reboot culture and Spice Girls with the incredible Juno Dawson. Juno Dawson is a Sunday Times bestselling novelist, screenwriter, podcaster and former columnist for Attitude magazine. Her books include This Book is Gay and Clean and her

first adult fantasy trilogy Her Majesty's Royal Coven, which launched in 2022, becoming an instant bestseller. Many will also know her as the co-host of the hit Sex and the City podcast, so I got to thinking. We can't wait to get into our chat with Juneo, but before that, just a quick reminder that following us on Instagram at Everything Is Content Pod means you can be the first to know about our guests, can ask them questions, and you'll also see more BTS content. That's at Everything Is Content Pod on Instagram and on TikTok. Perfect. Are you ready? Just a little dark. Oh my god, a cherub. We've got two guest stars. She's literally called

Angel. Yeah. So you know, I am, I had my gender confirmation surgery in April. And so it's still take the recovery still takes up a lot of time. And so it's just it's a whole like a vagina admin situation, basically. So that's good. But I'm very, you know, I got away with it. No complications, no health problems. But it's just, yeah, just means the mornings are particularly slow going. Like every morning I wake up, like full of really good intentions to like leap out of bed and just like get shit done. And then I end up watching Married at First Sight Australia while I die late. Not the best or is it the best use of my time?

It's medicinal. I would the best use of my time? Disgust. I don't know. It's medicinal. I like it. Good use of time. Thank you. I think it's got healing properties. Well, I'm happy for you as well.

I'm glad that everything went well. That was really exciting. Thank you. I'm gonna say, I really was, I was quite pessimistic about the whole thing. I was like, maybe I'll just die. Maybe this is it. Maybe I will just die in surgery.

And everybody went, oh yeah, she died. She died for pussy. But luckily we swerved because I mean that would be really unfortunate wouldn't it? I would say on a tombstone that does have a certain ring to it though, you know? Yeah. Well there are worse things to die for I think. I think so. I think it's actually quite chic. It's kind of like the woman falling out of the window and sex in the city.

Everybody's so boring. Exactly. Okay, Juno, so we always begin these episodes by asking our guests what they've been loving in the pop culture world recently. Maybe it's maths, maybe it's not. Can you tell us what have you been loving lately? So many things that I am enjoying right now. So yeah I am a very late comer to married at first sight Australia and this was suggested to me while I was in recovery from my surgery and they were like you're gonna need something where there is hours and

hours and hours where you can just give up your life. And I am fully two feet in. It is really, and actually weirdly, it's cured me of Love Island. So I've now moved on from Love Island to married at first sight. And my other thing that I'm really obsessed with is the girl group Cat's Eye. I didn't realize how starved I was of a pop band

until Cat's Eye came along. And then also recently I've started collecting vintage Bratz dolls, which in the wake of my divorce is bringing me a kind of wholesome hobby joy that has been missing from my life. The simple pleasure of having a hobby. First of all, I don't know who CatSci are. Is that bad? Do you both know who they are? I don't know who they are. I don't know who they are. We, is that bad? Do you both know who they are? I don't know who they are. I don't know who they are, we just, I thought we were Jeremiah.

Oh my God, okay, let me introduce CatSci. So if you have, if you subscribe to Netflix, you're gonna go on Netflix and watch Pop Star Academy, which is the Netflix documentary that documents how this group was put together. And they recruited girls from all around the world. So it's two record levels, one in America, one in South Korea. And they kind of enter global girls into like a K-pop training scheme.

It's like a hardcore like bootcamp with girls from all over the world. And they whittle it down from 20 girls to the final six. girls from all over the world and they whittle it down from 20 girls to the final six. And as you can imagine, teenage girls competing to be in a girl group is great television. But with any of these reality shows, you never know what you're going to get at the end of it. But they've actually turned quite a good song. I mean, if you're on TikTok, you'll have probably heard Gnarly. Gnarly has kind of been there. I think it was their third single and it's kind of gone really viral. It's absolutely barking mad. It sounds like nothing else I've really heard. And then their new single was written by Charli XCX. So they're kind of, they're emerging, but they're kind of, they're thoroughly modern girls. Two out of the six are bisexual, which I

love that journey for them. And it's interesting that, you know, a girl group where two of the members were openly queer wasn't thinkable when I was a teenager. So to have like teenage girls who are very happy to share the fact that they're queer and in a pop act, progress, tick. I love that. I love to see it.

I also wanna pick up on the Bratz doll element of your answer. You said this has been like a post-divorce thing. A, are you doing like limited edition Bratz? Is it like that far into the obsession of like, you know, finding the doll from 2006 via eBay from some woman in Texas? Or is it just buying them from a shop?

What does that look like? Oh, I feel seen. But yes, because I am literally the former. I am so deep down the rabbit hole. I did just get myself the limited edition Kylie Jenner Bratz doll. So yeah, it's that bad. And do you know what? I felt bad because somebody, I found it on Vintage for 15 pounds and that seller could have definitely got about 80 quid for it. So I feel, I do feel slightly like I stole that doll. But, um, you won the game. I did. I, that's, that is the game. And, um, I am going for the, there's a very specific line from 2003 that I really want, which is the ones where they were pirates. So if anybody's listening to this and can hook me up with a Bratz Treasures Sasha, let's talk. Let's talk. Because I'm not paying £250

on eBay. That's wild. Do you know what this is making me think of? It's like in a world of libubus. I'm not anti-libubu, but there's something kind of soulless and sinister. I really like the idea of collectibles with a bit of provenance, with a bit of history. This feels like if a LeBubu is like maybe chaotic evil, collecting Bratz dolls is at least chaotic good. Thanks. Yeah, I would say chaotic good. But do you know what it is? My hobby writing became my full-time career. And so I haven't had a hobby, like an honest-to-God hobby since 2011, where my little side project of seeing if I could finish a novel kind of became my, very much my whole world. And definitely it is a different little part of your brain to have

something that is really creative. And so a lot of what I'm doing is kind of buying these kind of like sad, sad dolls that have been loved by children who do not deserve them. And then sort of getting them and then watching YouTube videos about how to refurbish an old doll and how to fix its fucked up hair. And yeah, so it's definitely doing something. It's sort of like activating a very underused part of my brain, kind of a different kind of skill set. I'm really enjoying it. And I think this is why in the olden days they used to get insane people to weave baskets. I think doing things with fine murder skill is inherently good for your brain, I think.

No, I completely agree. That's why I get really into painting and stuff. I think it's one of the only things when you're actually using your hands that stops, it does slow my brain. I mean, not completely, my brain has never been quiet in my whole life, but it does do something quite good for it. But I love a Bratz doll. This was taking me back. I wonder what my mom did with mine,

but I remember I went to a Catholic school for a very short period of time, and I brought my Bratz dolls into school, and one of the women, like the teachers told my mom that they were Jezebels, and she never wanted to see them on the grounds again. But that's why they're brilliant. That is why they're brilliant because they are.

My favorite thing about Gen Z and Gen Alpha is the way they are now just using cunt as an adjective. So like it's stopped being a noun now, whereas just like, oh my God, you're much larger cunt. And there is no, there is no other word to describe Bratz dolls. Like look at their faces, they are cunt. And then I really love that. I love that for them.

And next to them, Barbie looks so beige kind of. They have, they're iconic. They're a great design. And I think the world of toy collection is a thing. And I think whether you are a collector of Bratz dolls or not, everybody agrees that that original 2001 design the world of toy collection is a thing. And I think whether you are a collector of Bratz dolls, I'm not, everybody agrees that that original 2001 design is now a quite iconic doll design.

Nothing else looks like a Bratz doll. I mean, we're all trying to look like Bratz dolls still today. So I think that is something. Are you displaying them or are they tucked away in a box? What's, did you have a big plan? How many have you actually got to date? Okay, I'm probably on about 10 or so at the moment. So this all came about from, again,

this is strong divorced woman energy, because my husband, my now ex-husband's man cave has now become my office, which I'm not in right now. I don't have the best Wi-Fi down there. But I had this sort of man cave to decorate, basically. And I was like, and he'd painted it in this very dark color. And I was like, right, I want to brighten it up and make it a lovely, inviting, much more feminine space. And he'd left his shelves on the walls. And he was a hobbyist as well. He was into those little Warhammer miniatures, which I love, and I love that for him. Again, I get it now, because maybe I didn't. And now with my collection, I sort of get it.

And so he left his shelves. And so I just had these sad empty shelves. And so I have, obviously, all five boxed, pristine Spice Girl dolls from the nineties. And so my Spice Girl dolls took up one shelf, but then I still had like three empty shelves. And I was like, we need something for these shelves. I have more bookshelves in the lounge than I know what to do with. So there's no, I don't need more bookshelves. So I was like, do you know what I need? Bratz dolls. And off we went. And it turns out they're highly collectible. Like

I've said, a treasured Sasha can fetch up to 300 pounds. I feel this could be my retirement plan. If nothing else pans out, I'm going to have to get into collecting. You did mention the Spice Girls there, which one reminds me, I very almost met you last year at the Girls Aloud concert in London. And I just chickened out for saying hello. I think it was like a very sacred space. I was like, do you know what? I'm a bit starstruck. We're just going to have a good time proximal to each other, which to me, it was like the most joyful thing. Last year, I had the best time and it looked like you were having the best time as well. And it was like a real bright spot in like quite a tricky year.

And Spice Girls again in which we'll get to we'll get to the HMLC world, but like the references to Spice Girls, I was like, I fear this book is going to become very important to me. Can you like talk a little bit about like, I know we talked about like girl groups, but like Spice Girls, maybe Girls Aloud in particular, like, as a formative band, how do you feel about Spice Girls now? What did they mean to you then in that era of life? It's funny, isn't it? Because I think when you're in the thick of it, I think was I 14,

when the 13, 14, when the Spice Girl dropped exactly the right age kind of, and you just know that you're kind of like really upset and it becomes you're like tracking them. At the time it was kind of pre internetinternet so you know of tracking them through tabloids kind of like what what were the Sun headline saying that day kind of um which was a very unusual way to follow a band. I think the internet now makes things very different. And but I think with hindsight as a grown-up you kind of realize that there wasn't a lot of representations of kind of female friendship. You know, in the 90s, this was pre-Desperate Housewives, it was pre Sex and the City.

Ali McBeal kind of really pitted women against each other. Actually, it was a very sort of different vibe. And when I was that age, my girlfriends were by far and away the most important thing to me. I knew I liked boys and I always imagined that I would end up dating men. But actually, I thought I'd upset one of my girlfriends, like I would lose sleep. That was really haunting and you would really dread going to school the next day, kind of. And so to see that kind of bond that you had, and they weren't sisters, they were kind of like friends, ostensibly. We don't really know what was going on behind the scenes. But that felt really exciting, wanting to be part of a little squad. And I know that's obviously became slightly more toxic later with the notion of the girl squad,

because sometimes they can feel cliquey and exclusive. But I also think with the Spice Girls, and I don't know how much of a sort of svingali there was behind the scenes, because I think it would be very hard to plan because I think, for example, and I'm going to get myself into trouble now, because I'm sure there are like real stands of say the Saturdays. But that wasn't, the Saturdays were too perfect. They were too polished. They were too beautiful. Whereas the Spice Girls had this kind of working class scrappiness that I think was also very present in Girls Aloud as well. Where, you know, if you look at Girls Aloud, there isn't a southerner in

the group, you know, they're kind of like four northerners and an Irish girl. And I think that's really wonderful. And as kind of a working class girl from Bradford, it was really exciting to see the Spice Girls in the world. And I think Adele said it best when she said to James Corden in Carpool Karaoke, you know, they were five girls who got out. And as a child, I didn't even know what it was I wanted to get out of. But I knew that I wanted to get out. And so to see the to see the the amazing fame that the Spice Girls managed to achieve despite kind of having quite humble roots was a big deal. And it was remains a big deal. I still think that's something for me to aspire to.

I loved what you said about there was a scrappiness to them because I was listening to Every Outfit podcast, another wonderful Sex with the City podcast along the vein of Your Brilliant Want To, and they had a guest on and they were saying that with the kind of Addison Rae hype at the minute, some, their working theory of what makes a really good pop star is you have to have a level of messiness and grittiness with, you know, balancing on the stratosphere of polished perfection as well. That's what Brittany did brilliantly, her personal life, you know, tabloid fodder. Everything she put on screen was just perfection, brilliance, like absolute performance art. And it's that straddling the two spheres that kind of feels like what you're saying as well.

and it's that straddling of the two spheres. That kind of feels like what you're saying as well. Yeah, and I think there's always going to be a slight... distance between, I think, Brits and American artists. There's always going to be more of a gloss to American artists and that's because they literally just spend more money on them. And I think that's something that's really interesting with Cat's Eye because they've got two streams of money coming from K-pop, which is the most expensive pop music in the world if you look at Blackpink. Their videos have the kind of budget that nobody else, like Addison Rae,

couldn't even dream of that budget. And also money coming from Ariana Grande's label as well. So there is a gloss to Cat's Eye, but there's also like a weird chaos. They are kind of quite a chaotic group. And I think that's something that teenage girls recognize because to be a teenage girl is to be chaotic. You know, it's absolute chaos. And so I think that's, you know, why, why people would want to agree whether it's Girls' Bites, Girls' Cat's Eye, or an artist like Charlie XCX, who again is kind of... No, see, here's the thing. I remember Charlie XCX appearing at my friend's club night when she was

14 years old. And God lover, she had a little stage mom in tow. She had a momager with her. And so I'm not sure how much of Brat Summer is clever marketing, but it's very clever marketing. I don't know if Ketamin has ever entered Charlie XCX's body, however much she would like to tell us about it. But either way, it works. That kind of, it is, I believe,

as the children would say, relatable. You brought up about the way that the Spice Girls predated Sex and the City and that kind of friendship. And we do wanna talk to you a bit about Sex and the City. Absolutely, let's go. Let's talk about Unjust Like That. Please, that was where we wanted to go because you are a scholar and we wanna know,

are you glad that and just like that exists and what are your honest thoughts about it being out there in the world i have to let you know i haven't watched the latest season i will do but i'm up to date on the previous don't put yourself through it as well so i mean what i love is that dylan and i have committed to it now and it's kind of there's no way back it's we we we can't turn back. We've come too far. However, now this is the hill I'm going to die on. I'm really genuinely glad that Sex and the City 2 was not the last word in Sex and the City because Sex and the City 2 was horrific. Like on so many levels. It missed the mark so badly. And I think the awful thing is, I don't think it was ill-intentioned,

but my god, wild, like on so many levels. So I'm always going to be glad that there was something after that. And I still think there is a purpose to Unjust Like That, which is women do not stop being sexual beings at the age of 50. And let's talk about what happens to women in their 50s as they continue to navigate romance and love and sex. And it was the right choice to have Mr. Big die. I'm sorry, you've had three years to get around that spoiler. I'm not going to not say that anymore. And so within the three seasons we've had, there have been moments of value. And I would say some moments of genuine good. And I refer back to, I think, the pinnacle with Samantha Urby's episode where Carrie pisses the bed while Miranda is being fingered in the kitchen by Che Diaz. Because that was

like, oh my gosh, Carrie Bradshaw has pissed herself. This is something new. This is a reason for this show to exist. But there is still, I think sometimes they lose sight of that reason for being there. And there is too much perhaps looking back and not enough looking forwards. And I've got, I've said it a million times, there is such a quick fix. And that is the absence of Carrie's voiceover,

which it turns out it is in the DNA of that show. And actually without it, the character is very prickly. And it's, in fact, I would go so prudish. And so we've got this kind of very odd, odd tasting confection. And then also, you know, again, that scrapping, you know, why do we love Carrie Bradshaw? Because she is a chaotic freelance journalist living in a realistic rent control department in Manhattan. And her friends were kind of battling sex and careers, whereas now they're all like millionaires living in ridiculous mansions. It is not, as the children would say, relatable.

I will have to preface this by saying I'm a Sex and the City head, but I have not watched I've watched one episode of AJLT. It just hasn't caught my attention. Isn't that interesting though, that as a Sex and the City super fan that he... I didn't go. Yeah. I didn't kind of cross the river and join it. And I felt very left out at times. Most left out because I thought your podcast was about the show. And I said, when I eventually do watch, I'll watch this. So now six years later, also right on time, I'm listening to the very early

episodes of your podcast while doing my first rewatch. It's very exciting. But I wanted to ask, I feel like I'm seeing Carrie Bradshaw in meme form everywhere, both on the side of like, look how humiliating she is. I'm thinking of it's the meme of her turning up to Bigg's flat. Well, both, one with the McDonald's and the beret and the other with the kind of whip in her mouth. And she's like basically the poster child of moment for humiliation, but also on the flip side of that of like earnest, boy mad, she goes for it. I feel like she's sort of like hero and anti-hero at the moment. And I'm just wondering that why are we still so obsessed with Carrie that like, especially the Carrie of like, basically showing herself up, humiliating herself going like balls deep for men that really couldn't care if she lives or dies.

Like why is she still the moment it has been this many years? I'm like, what is it about? What is about Carrie? I see that meme everywhere. I think it's because we're all Carrie, however much we want to be a Miranda or a Samantha. And I think what has come through as Dylan and I have broken down the episodes is Carrie is human. She is flawed. She is selfish. The other meme is that there is nothing Carrie cannot make about her. And that's fine because she's the main character of a TV show. Of course it's about her. And I think when now we say, my God, she has main character energy, we can trace that sort

of back to Carrie Bradshaw, who will watch her friend's mother die and make it about her laptop dying. Kind of amazing. friend's mother die and make it about her laptop dying. Amazing. But we've all done that because we are all the main character in our own lives. However much we want to deny that, we all have main character energy. Our friends are always going to be supporting characters in our lives. And I think that's why we attack the concept of Carrie Bradshaw, because it's something that we dislike about ourselves. So it's easier to externalize it and kind of make fun of Carrie.

And I think as well, I think Sarah Jessica Parker is very aware of this. And I think she's very protective of Carrie. And, you know, now we talk about sort of like unlikable female characters and Sex and the City embraced that. You know, there were very few shows that would have had the romantic lead cheat on a sweet character like Aidan Shaw. You know, and it was very bold of that show to take that swing and have Carrie cheat, you know, no other shows were doing that. I completely agree. I think your read on it is just 10 out of 10.

I think people don't want to align themselves with a character like Carrie, but I think the amazing thing about her is, we all feel like we could do anything she does. We could, you know, be her in any way, shape or form. And you're right, I think people don't like that. I really I really need to hear your thoughts on how you think I'm just like that have done the fab for obviously minus Samantha dirty or whether they've given them good arcs later on in life, because one

of the criticisms, rightly so in my opinion, is that Miranda's been presented almost like this doofus, foolish, bumbling character and it's only in series three. By the way, I'm watching all of the episodes for my flaws. And I feel like they've given her vibes again, which is brilliant. But somebody like Charlotte has become much more comedic in every single episode. It's quite a different track for them. What do you think about where they are now versus where they were in the original series? I think the first season in particular did Miranda really dirty.

I would have gone back, again, if I had my magic wand, I would bring back Harry's voice and get rid of the alcoholism plot line, which I think was handled very poorly, if I'm honest. And I think, I'm glad they've stuck with it. They always go to great lengths to point out that Miranda is drinking non-alcoholic beverages. So at least they've not ditched it, ditched it,

but it felt surplus to requirement when she was also exploring her relationship with Che. And actually that, I thought was a good idea. It kind of makes sense for Miranda, I think, to, you know, having met Che Diaz, to start questioning her sexuality and to examine the sexless relationship she had with Steve. That's correct, because again, that comes back to what I think the show is about. The Che Diaah storyline gets a pass and I think where we've arrived now feels correct for Miranda. On paper, the Charlotte stuff I think makes sense in that she is juggling being

a mum of two teenagers and obviously re-entering the workplace, which I think is a great thing for Charlotte. But there's, and Dylan and I have said a few times, it feels like there's something off about Kristin Davis's performance. And I feel horrible saying that because clearly Kristin Davis is a force for good in the world. Like she seems like a thoroughly good egg, but it kind of feels like a drag queen doing a satire of Charlotte sometimes. And I think that was

true of Steve as well. It felt like they'd watched old episodes and had kind of become a bit of a caricature. Like, Mwanda! Which kind of like, what the fuck, like, what the fuck is going on? But, um, yeah, and just some of the writing, it's all a lot of kind of like, okay, boomer, kind of jerk, sort of, that, that don't quite work. And it did, I think, like, I think, so, now that they've kind of, I think, course corrected and realised, right, okay, let's, this is a show about women in their 50s having relationships. I think when they started, they were like, oh, how will 50 year old women cope in the modern world? How will Charlotte cope with having a non-binary child? And it's like, well, hang the fuck

on. Cynthia Nixon, a woman in her 50s, has a trans child and she's curping just fine, actually. So I don't understand why Michael Patrick King, I think we're seeing a lot of him struggling to adapt to the modern world. And these women have always kind of been his mouthpiece. And that was one of the criticisms of the original show, which was that this is for cisgender women speaking like gay men. And I'm kind of like, well, okay, lots and lots of cisgender women wrote for that show as well.

It wasn't just Michael Patrick King and Darren Starr. And that was, nobody ever really said that about Desperate Housewives, which was also a showrun by a gay man. But I think now that they've let that, I mean, the mortifying one, and I know exactly which I've said you're referring to, is when Miranda keeps on doing racist microaggressions to the character of Naya. And it's like, hang on, hold on, one moment, hold the phone. 20 years ago, Miranda had a black boyfriend

and was not accidentally, you know, like patting his hair and shit like that. You know, so it's kind of like, hang on, there is inconsistency here and it was, this shouldn't come as a surprise from a writer, a lot of it was in the writing. I'm never gonna be invited to the official podcast, I'm just really burning bridges with HBO.

Probably not. Yeah. This is what I wanted to ask is obviously aside from the voiceover, which is such a good point, and I don't know why I hadn't clicked about that, but do you think that this show, that this Sex and the City sequel could have been done any better, or do you think that it's a fault with the culture in that, as you said, the format is, it's almost like they're trying to be too self-aware, hit too many touchstones, hit too many of these kind of like culture wars issues to bring it up today. Because it almost doesn't feel like it is a follow-on. It is its own separate landscape.

And that's maybe why it feels clunky. I was so, unlike Beth, so excited about this. I was waiting with bait of breath the minute I found out they were doing a sequel. And then I think it started off, okay, like when big died, you're kind of like, shit, this is gonna go somewhere and then it's kind of got progressively worse. But yeah, I'd love to know if you think that if we scrapped it, went back in time, started again, is there a world in which this is close to perfection?

Or do you think that culture has changed too much to allow that to happen? So I think there was a weird choice and I think a lot of it was potentially around Kim Cattrall's decision not to return, which I respect. I don't think she should be in a workplace she didn't enjoy. That's true for all of us. So there was obviously a choice made, right? We're going to give it a new name, it's going to have new vibes, Carrie's voiceover is gone, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's odd. Maybe they were trying to distance themselves from Sex and the City 2, which was, which has become like a bit of a punchline. But I think that's a mistake,

a genuine mistake. I think they should have probably, actually, I don't mind, actually, I do not mind the title on Just Like That. I'm glad they didn't go with So I Got to Thinking because I think we would have probably been sued. So I didn't mind that, but I just think they changed too much. And also, I think maybe they underestimated what would happen when they took Carrie's voice over away. And I think it was the right choice to kill Big, as I said, because otherwise, nobody just wants to see Carrie being married to Big.

That does not make for story. That doesn't generate story. But I think it's a real shame and it's a cautionary tale because my other great love of the 90s is getting the reboot as well, which is Buffy the Vampire Slayer. And so in a world where I'm just like, that hadn't happened, I would have been like, yes, oh my God, Buffy is back with Sarah Michelle Geller and they've got rid of Joss Whedon. This is the best day. Celebrate party in the street. Now I'm a bit like, Oh, God, please don't go the same way as I'm just like that. Because I think I think the best anyone can say about and just like that is that it's weirdly compulsive viewing. Like, despite everything I've said, I genuinely look forward

to watching the episodes. Dylan and I are lucky enough, we've been sent streamers from Warner Brothers. So we get to watch the episodes in advance and I'm genuinely excited. And like, I think it was right, in the third season, they've narrowed the field a little bit in that they've written out the characters of Chadioth and Nyah, and which is good because it means

the other characters get more breathing space, which is great, thank God. So I think there are things to be enjoyed, but it is frustrating, and especially now, I suppose the difference now between the first time he's done our work in television. And so it is incredibly frustrating as a mega fan and a screenwriter to be like, oh, come on, like, come on, this is just not true.

This is, you know, I'm a 43 year old woman who lived in a vibrant and diverse city. You know, these women had lived in Manhattan for a very long time. You know, there is no need for you to sit there having people make microaggressions about trans people or people of colour, you know, come on. Let's just do what Sex and City always did, which is adventures in sex and dating. Speaking of kind of fandoms that are so, well, they're very, they're very kind of strong-willed, I feel like, the Sex and the City fandom. And I also feel this way about the Doctor

Who fandom. And you have done so much in that space. I think most recently is it, you wrote this episode, which my group chat blew up, the Interstellar Song Contest, which I think is fantastic, seemed to be received so well, but one, you're working in an existing space. You've done a lot with Doctor Who already. I assume that you grew up loving it, but it is. That's a fandom, very protective over it. And also Eurovision Song Contest,

something which you recently is, has become quite thorny. I mean, it's a brave place to go to. And I wondered if you could maybe speak a bit about like the genesis of that idea and whether you felt any nerves about bringing those two together on the BBC. I didn't, I should have done. So, cause this, and I think this is just the time scale

of television, Russell T. Davis first emailed me in early 2022 and he just said, email, Eurovision meets Die Hard, what do you think? And I was like, Oh my God, yeah, let's let's go. And it's only really over the last kind of two years. And since the conflict in Palestine and Israel has reached new heights of media awareness, that Eurovision has become especially thorny. There has been rumblings. I remember when Israel won in 2018 and I was there in Lisbon when they won. It was largely received well, was the song Toy by Netta. But there was some rumblings of, you know, I had

friends say to me, you better not go to Tel Aviv next year. And I was like, okay, yep, I hear, I hear what you're saying. But then things obviously got worse and worse. And yeah, so I did sort of find myself writing something as well that kind of was actually initially quite genuinely I was inspired by Ukraine. And I was very struck by how the media cycle had moved on. And that kind of really informed the plot. It was that it's about basically, it's about some insurgents who commit an atrocity in order to draw awareness to the plight of an alien species. But the problem is now everybody assumed I was trying to make commentary about Palestine and Israel. And so, yeah, I've seen very welcome

discourse about whether or not this is somewhere Doctor Who should have gone to. But I think if art says nothing, it's nothingness, it's meaningless. And so I'm glad that Russell and Disney Plus and the BBC went there. There was a draft, an earlier draft that was perhaps slightly more scathing, but that's something I learned from working under Russell as well. Even a writer at Russell T. Davis' level

still has to do as he's told. And this is now a global show that streams worldwide on Disney Plus. There was only so political I was allowed to be. And that's all I will say on that. You mentioned Reboots, and I really just have to take us back to you mentioned a reboot of Buffy and being so excited for it. I always get confused on my own kind of stance on reboots and whether all of them are just kind of destined to be trash or there is hope to be had. And I was

wondering what do you think on that? Are there any particular reboots in your mind that still stand the test of time that you would say with your chest, reboots can be a force of good? that you would, you know, say with your chest, reboots can be a force of good. Now this is one, and you have to understand that this is based on immersion, not logic, but I have so much love in my heart for the 2000s Charlie's Angels movies. They are enormously problematic,

that this is that very early noughties feminism of using sexuality to sort of almost fox men into doing your bidding, which is no kind of feminism whatsoever. Like that is some weak sauce if you're blinding men with your tits while you steal from them. You know, kind of, men with your tits while you steal from them. You know, this is not using our voices, is it? Let's be honest. But in terms of did they take what was a dusty old show from the 70s and make it correct for the era? Yeah, they did. And again, speaking of girl groups and girl gangs, that was another girl group of girls who just loved each other and they get the job done. And again, apparently they all despised each other in real life. But weirdly they got together in the pandemic.

They did like a Zoom thing. I don't know what, was it for Drew Barrymore's chat show or something? I don't know why they did a little reunion, but to see them talking now, they've clearly whatever it is. And I think this often happens with girls you've fallen out with in the past. When you reach your 30s and 40s, you're just like, oh my God, that was so stupid. Like, and I think, so I think they've reached a place

of harmony and love with one another, yes. Those films raised me and actually informed many of my choices as a kind of TV. I was like, this is what you do. You flirt as a distraction, like a decoy. But also I thought they were friends because there's that amazing picture of Drew Barrymore and Cameron Diaz outside the club looking at all the way to awards in the awards era where people still wore jeans.

It was so good. Oh my gosh. And then like carrying bottles of champagne. I think it was loosey loose. I think it was a slight two against one issue. Oh, I see. I see. If we believed tabloid noise from the era.

They then rebooted that reboot. I never watched it, but wasn't it Kristen Stewart? Yes, so since then there have been two attempts, so this is really interesting. So one reboot doesn't necessarily give rise to others, so they attempted to bring it back to TV as well and it was cancelled after four episodes because it took itself very seriously and it didn't work. I don't think there's ever going to be a dark version of Charlie's Angels, like come on. And it was like three women in Miami combating human

trafficking. That's a very different vibe and not not right for Charlie's Angels can be quite you're clashing two things. And then yeah, they did they did the one with them. Kristen Stewart, which actually do you know what it's on Netflix, it's worth watch. It doesn't it doesn't have the budget it needs to have it like can't compete with modern blockbusters. But it has do you know what there is a message at the end that's quite sweet, actually, about, so it's funny, it kind of,

it is a direct sequel to the Cameron Diaz ones in that you see their costumes, they go into a big wardrobe and you see a lot of the costumes from the films are sort of hanging on rails. And it has a lot of, it has a lot to recommend about her. And actually Kristen Stewart's performance is wonderful. She plays this kind of very cool kind of tomboyish

kind of androgynous character. She's great and just gorgeous. Like she will very much awaken something bisexual within you. But yeah, no, it does fall flat, but it also wasn't quite given a chance. And so I would say genuinely, do give it a little, if you loved the 2000s ones, give it a little go. Sorry, this is such a deviation. I just had to ask earlier, like you are really so funny and I knew that from your writing. And I'm sorry if I'm missing like a lot of Juno Dawson lore here,

but do you have like a stand-up comedy background or have you ever done any like stand-up comedy? Absolutely not. No, that is the one thing, that is the line. It's so weird, I've done, because I do cabaret. I mean, I'm part of a cabaret group called Club Silencio in Brighton and we do things maybe once or twice a year. Just we're all grown grown ups, we all have things to do. But it's our 10th anniversary this year, so we're doing a 10th anniversary

special in December. But that's very different. That's acting, it's playing character. But it's funny that I went to see some stand-up comedy maybe about 15 years ago, and it was excruciating. And I was like, absolutely no. Like, you know, I would get up and sing, I would get up and do cabaret, but never, never would I do stand up comedy. Okay, I do kind of feel like you don't need to. It's like often for people, it is that way into the world of like creating things and like, thank God you do that. But I just wondered, I just sort of had a little glimmer. No, it's funny because that is the line. That is the line in the film that I would draw.

Not going. I'm very familiar with Juno's Witticisms because I'm up to date on every single episode of So I Just Got to Thinking, including the white Lotus ones, apart from the latest Unjust Like That because I haven't watched it yet But I would really recommend because I loved your especially though I think I'd recommend it on one of the other everything's content episodes when you did the white lotus Because that is a show that really benefits from a breakdown analysis as well So I would literally watch the episode and immediately go and listen to your take on it. It's very good

If anyone hasn't dealt that ho. Yeah, We did that just because Dylan and I missed each other. We were just like, because we waited, it was 18 months between season two and three of And Just Like That, we were like, should we just do something else? I mean, and this is good because it means potentially there is a future for Dylan and I and the podcast beyond And Just Like That as well. Because God knows how much longer And just like that can carry on. I feel like you mentioned Ali McBeal earlier. I feel like Ali McBeal needs, it's so problematic. I watched this when I was nine years old for the first time

and then rewatched it and I was like, oof, I don't want it to have a reboot, but I think it would benefit from some like, kind of like the loving companion show that you have become for. Do you think that or do you think it should actually just be left in the late 90s, early 2000s? I gave it a so weirdly, I started rewatching it back on channel, it's on channel four, the streaming platform. And so you can you can watch it at your leisure. It's incredibly

problematic from modern standards and even you know, I think I would I would have been what 15 when it started. Like wild like a lot of sexual assault a lot of characters male and female casually sexually assaulting each other. Like it is the show of unwanted touching. Like and you kind of like oh my god we all thought this was warm and amusing. It's dark and maybe we'll leave that one in the recesses of the past. I mean, there'd be a lot to talk, there would be a lot to talk about. I think what puts me off is that they're really long episodes. And there's also the one with the transgender sex worker as well that's aged about as well as you would think it has.

Yeah, there are a few of those transphobic storylines that you just think, it has. Yeah, there are a few of those transphobic storylines that you just think, fucking hell. Yeah, really like, I would, I'm not one for like, let's just erase and move on. But I just think, yeah, it does sort of put such a mark on the show. Yeah, it's a shame. And because I used to love Ally McBeal. Like, her yearning for love really sparked me as a single teenager. Oh my god, I'm like, get over it. Get a hobby, collect some Bratz dolls. Shall we talk book? Let's talk book, yeah. Okay, fantastic.

Yes, please, please, please give us an introductory level explainer of the trilogy. What are the books about? Tell us everything. So yeah, Her Majesty's Royal Coven is the trilogy and we for book one is also called Her Majesty's Royal Coven. It is a simple conceit, which is what if there was a government sanctioned coven of very powerful witches covertly working in the UK to keep the United Kingdom protected from what they call super normal forces. And that sounds quite serious, but actually what it's about, it's about five, so you can see where this is going. It's about five women who they, they are inducted to the Coven as teenage girls

when they're 13 years old. And then we pick up with them 25 years later when they're in their 30s. They've kind of drifted apart, their adult lives have taken them in very different directions. One runs her own coven for people of color in London, one is quietly living as a vet in Hebden Bridge, and one of them has become the high priestess of the whole coven. One of them, her husband doesn't even know she's a witch. And then the whole thing falls apart when a young trans witch arrives at the coven in need of sanctuary. And these women very much disagree about whether or not they should include Theo within the coven. And it causes

this schism that has huge, huge consequences, not just for them as a group of friends, but also for national security. So it's kind of like the craft meets the Spice Girls, meets the X-Men. And I wrote a book that I really loved and I'm really delighted to say a lot of other people have really enjoyed the books as well. At this point, oh, we don't want to say it, I guess, is the third one up to the point that you just said or the first book is? So I was very spoiler free there. So that describes the events of the first book.

Because I think the way I see it is now book two and book three, they almost act as adverts for book one. Like, if you haven't read book one, don't start with book three. It's not going to make a jot of sense. If you have read the other two, this is the culmination of everything from the first two books. If you know, you know. If you read book two, you know something enormous happens at the end of book two. And now you're finally going to get the resolution. And I will say this, I promise no more cliffhangers. Everything is wrapped up. All the answers are coming your way.

This is the final book. I was gonna say, because you were like, something huge happens at the end of book two. I was like, also the cliffhanger of book one, which I luckily read that and then book two was already out. But I imagine people who were reading it as it came out were like, gunning for you. Because it is, it's very like cinematic,

it's very televisual. When you're writing that, obviously with your multi-disciplinarianism screenwriter, you work in television, like, are you seeing it? Is it kind of like you're using those two disciplines together or do you very much have to be like, I'm in book mode now, or is it just one big discipline? How does that work?

Well, see, maybe I'm neurodivergent. Not the first person to suggest that. But when I read books as a child, I always saw it as like watching a little film in your head. Like, is that what everybody does? Or is that just me? Ish, yes. Ish, yeah. It's kind of blurry, the film. It's like if I had to pull it, I can't quite see it. And for me, that I really like a book that is very visual and it's been said many, many times that my writing style is visual, which I take to be a compliment. Because I always see my job, it's a film that exists in my head, but can I telepathically kind of get it into your head? And if you're seeing something wildly different from me,

I'm not sure I've done my job. Maybe if I was writing sort of stream of consciousness literary fiction, that would be a very different thing. But I kind of wanted to write a blockbuster novel, and I really have, especially the last part of book three feels very cinematic. So like the third book's in two halves.

The first half is kind of resolving a lot of the relationship dramas. And then the second half is kind of balls to the wall, shit, the world is about to end kind of. We spoke to Caroline O'Donoghue recently about her books and her love of fantasy. And obviously a lot of your books have this kind of magical, fantastical elements.

What is it about that that you're drawn to, rather than going down quite literary, sort of very realistic, maybe a bit more mundane channels? What is it that draws you to those magical worlds? I think it is a thing of taste. I think the word that I always use is speculative. I need there to be something speculative in both the television I'm watching with obviously huge caveat excluding Sex and the City and just like that. But most of my books that

I consume in TV shows and films have some sort of heightened element, whether it's something like Fallout or Yellow Jackets or Bucket of Vampire Play, you know, Severance, just something a little bit other. Sometimes a show will come along that surprising, but that isn't necessarily my cup of tea. Like I really enjoyed Bad Sisters on Apple TV. So sometimes there's exceptions to every rule, but especially with novels right now, my taste is very much in this kind of like weird girl horror, kind of the Eliza Clarke, Julia Armfield kind of end of the market. I'm really enjoying that. And a lot of disturbing fiction. I'm reading at the moment, I'm reading, oh God, what tender is the flesh, which is a world where we're all eating human flesh

and it's about kind of like a farm of human meat. So I like that kind of stuff. One thing, this book, it was to read it was pure, it was escapism, but it has so many, and I'm talking about HMRC for anyone that's not in the trilogy, this is the first one, it does have this element of turf radicalisation. As someone who was very much on Twitter especially during those like J.K. Rowling just coming out of the woodwork, it is very alarmingly that. Was it, it's escapism to read it, I can imagine maybe less so to write it, but was it during this time, and I think you came off Twitter maybe a couple of years

after you started writing this book, but was that maybe the tipping point when you went, I actually can't be in these online spaces anymore because it is, they are so toxic. They are just the worst of the worst. We'll do that come later. It also happened at the same time and it probably worked, I'm surprised

that that time was the pandemic, which was on hindsight a deeply cursed time all around. But what blew my mind, so I'd had the initial seed of the idea for Her Majesty's Thrill Coven in 2018, I was on tour in Melbourne and I kind of just jotted it down on a little piece of hotel paper and I was like, oh, desperate housewives, but they're witches. You know, is there something in that? But it didn't take hold. I sort of jotted down a list of the sort of vague archetypal characters, you know, one's a merm and one's this.

But then during the pandemic in 2020, during that first, very first lockdown, it really blew my mind that there was a global pandemic. You know, thousands of people were dying a day. But the Telegraph and the Times still had trans lobby sacrifices children. And I'm like, that's the headline. You know, like we're dying of this virus. And that is your headline. You know, like we're dying of this virus and that is your headline. You know, I never saw JK Rowling tweet about COVID. I never saw, you know, I'd never seen JK Rowling tweet about Palestine or abortion rights.

You know, but I was like, so this is the hill you're dying on. And as a writer, I live in this world. You know, I live in the same world as everybody else. And I thought, right, okay, Juno, you have nothing but time, you're not allowed out. Let's see if you can work out why some women, because I don't really care about men, full stop, why some women are fearful of trans women, because I decided to try and be generous and let's give them the benefit of the doubt. And so this isn't, you know, hate, it's fear. Let's say it's not hate, it's fear, because that feels more kind. And so I thought, right, I'm going to write two characters. One is a cisgender woman who embraces this trans child and wants what's best for her. And one of them, a character called Helena, can't. She cannot see this teenager as anything else other than an imposter or,

well, just at the base of it, a boy, you know. And so off I went. And it was a challenge. It was a challenge because there are some chapters narrated by the character of Helena. But during that year that I spent writing that book, I did sort of the mental gymnastics. I really tried to be Helena and work out what the problem was and I came down to, oh it's it's bigotry. There is something inside of that character who her opinion is more valid than Thea's truth or Niamh's opinion and I do think and I think what I came away with from that book, and it was very, very freeing, was that actually it was being very generous to think that what lives in the heart of people is fear. Because actually, I think it's discussed. I think back in the 50s and 60s, when black women weren't allowed in swimming pools and

restrooms, it didn't come from a place of white women being scared of black women. It came from a place of disgust. And I mean, granted, I wasn't there, I wasn't alive in the 50s and 60s. But if I'm going to extrapolate why I think, and the funny enough, the reason I came to this was from being on Twitter, because I saw the way people spoke about me and women like me. And they're not scared of me. They're disgusted. The way they break down my body, the way they break down my face, the way they break down my relationship with my ex, they are not fearful. they are disgusted. And when you are disgusted by a minority group, we just call that prejudice.

One thing I will say actually, having read the book, like the radicalisation, yeah, I'll call it that, it happens very fast. I think if you haven't watched how these online spaces operate, you might think, oh no, surely it's like a seed that grows into actually no, it is it can happen really, really rapidly. And I just think it's it does what so much great sci-fi and fantasy does, which is create a world which is like beset by darkness and like literal demons, but also like offers this so many like glimmers of hope and better ways to be which, which is why it's a fantastic book. I can't wait to read Human Rights.

Oh, you like Book 3? I'm waiting. I cannot wait to actually get my physical copy. Well, because book one, and I always said this, book one was about division between women. Book two is about division between women and men. And book three is about women and the patriarchy. How can women essentially attempt to dismantle patriarchy? And so I set myself a really lofty goal and I can't claim to have all the answers, but I think I've at least posited some suggestions, maybe a better way.

Oh, I love that. Well, I can't wait to read that as well. Thank you. I was gonna say, if there was a time for a book setting out an answer on that question, I think now is the time, right now. Amazing. This is so fun. This is amazing.

So fun. Instagram for events, because I think you're on tour for a lot of shows. I am, yeah, we're very nearly sold out. Well, yeah, so when I'm on tour both in July and August, I'm doing a week in July and a week in August, there are still some dates left. The ones that are definitely, definitely sold out

is Cardiff, London and Manchester are sold out. But there are still, I think, some tickets for the other dates. And we're actually doing a second date. We're doing a live episode of the podcast at the Common Press on August 10th. I mean, it's the first time we've done a live episode. So this is very much our trial run. It's going to be a very nostalgic. Dylan and I are going to select our three favourite episodes of Sex and the City. And then I have a lovely Q and A with our audience. So there's definitely some tickets left for that one.

So please do come and join us in Shardich. This is so fun. This is amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you. That's been brilliant. That's been really good. I'm going to sneak out there for a coffee before the, the hanging man comes.

I think they've missed a trick. They've not called their business well hung. And I think they're literally called the picture hangers and I'm like, I mean okay, it does what it says on the tin, however, this is Brighton, come on. Give him a note. Give him a note when he comes over. Oh I shall, unless he's really hot in which case I'll be like... Thank you so much for listening this week. Make sure you go grab a copy of Human Rights right now, literally right now. We're on Instagram and TikTok at Everything Is Content Pod.

And if you enjoyed this episode, or literally any episode ever, please do leave us a rating and a lovely five star review on your podcast player app. It means the world. See you on Friday. Bye! Bye! Bye!