Everything Is Content - Everything In Conversation: Bringing Back 'Queenie' With Candice Carty-Williams

Episode Date: July 1, 2026

Hello EICherries 🍒 This week is a very special author episode with the incredibly talented and successful Candice Carty-Williams. It was an honour to speak to her about her highly anticipated sequel to the beloved Queenie – her debut novel exploring the highs and lows of a 20-something young Black woman. She was very open about the struggles of adapting the story for TV; why she decided to bring the character back now; chosen families, and her experience of productivity pressure and desperately needing to switch off.We loved speaking with her. Please do give us a rating or a Spotify comment on any topics we discussed, as we'd love to hear from you <3Love O,R,B xxxx-------Queenie Is Working On It is OUT NOW. Go get a copy ASAP.Candice's tour dates Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm Beth. I'm Richara. I'm Inoni. And I'm Candice. And this is Everything in Conversation. A little content kickabout before the big match on Friday. Remember, if you want to take part in these conversations, or maybe you have a suggestion for who you want us to chat to in future.

Just follow us on Instagram. Everything is ContentPod. Our DMs are open 24-7. This week, we're thrilled to be in conversation with Candice Carty Williams, novelist, showrunner, culture writer and award-winning author. In 2016, Candice both created and launched The Guardian and Fourth Estate, Fourth Right Prize for underrepresented writers, the first inclusive initiative of its kind in book publishing.

Her 2022 novel, People Person, was a Sunday town's bestseller, as was Queenie back in 2019. Described upon release as the Black Bridget Jones, Queenie was adapted for Channel 4 and Hulu in 2024 with Candice as showrunner and executive producer. And as of tomorrow, the very highly anticipated sequel, Queenie is working on it, will be out in the world. Thank you so much for joining us.

Obviously, listeners won't know, but Candice is not having the best time right now because you've hurt your back a bit, unfortunately, which is really awful. But then perhaps does that mean that you have been absorbing any good TV books or films? Because the first question we always ask our guests, is there any pop culture that you've been loving this week? Has anything been soothing you from your sick bed or has it been more a case of just staying very still? So I have been trying to engage in all things

because I'm really bad at staying still, like so bad at staying still. So I've been reading the first confession. What is it? I think it's like the first true confessions of, no, it's the true confessions of First Lady Freeman by Disha Filial. You can actually leave me getting it in wrong because I think it's good for everyone to say it's a mouth.

but it's worth it. And I've been watching Tiptoe on Channel 4. And I think that's kind of it. Anything else, I sort of like watch it. I've been watching the football, obviously. I've been watching the World Cup. So that's been keeping me going. Can we get a plotted synopsis of both?

I also have been desperate to watch Tiptoe. That's the next thing on my list. I don't think I would do it justice. I wouldn't do it justice. The book that I'm reading is, it's the confessions of. But it's like a sort of spoof of the confessions of a woman who was married to like a mega pastor when she was very young. And it's like her looking back at all the scandal that she caused. And it's very, very racie and salacious and fun. And Disha's one of my favorite writers ever.

But tiptoe, I think I'm not going to do it justice. I'm not going to do justice. But it's a great channel four drama written by Russell T. Davies. And I'm a big fan. Oh, I walk past like a big thing for this on a wall somewhere. And I was like, I need to watch that. Okay, yes, I know what you're talking about now. Sometimes you just have to hear Russell T. Davis. Although, Ruchera, when you said, could we get a plotted synopsis? I went, what football of the entire World Cup? And then I went, no, no, sorry.

Exactly, yeah. Just a small ask. So, obviously, we are here to talk about it because Queenie is back. Queenie is working on it. And I remember reading Queenie, the first book when it first came out. I think it was 2019. Queenie is 25 in the first book. I was 25 when that book came out.

We're now meeting her again. She's 33. I'm 32. So I very much feel like this is a woman that I've grown up with. And when I read the first book, I did feel like we had some similar experiences. Obviously, I'm a white, posh woman. So we also had some very different experiences, Queenie's experiences in the book. A lot of them are quite horrific about racism and the microaggressions and the treatment that she gets at the hands of very, very horrible men. But for people who haven't read it, because that makes it sound

like it's all very dark, because it is also very funny and very relatable, for people who haven't read Queenie, and I don't know how they missed it, because I was looking on my WhatsApp messages and I was searching it and I text so many friends at the time every single person I knew we were all talking about it. What was Queenie about and how does it feel to be back with Queenie now? Oh, thank you so much.

So Queenie, yes. I mean, yeah, it makes it sound a bit more harrowing than it was. But yeah, for something, I guess it is. But no, so yes, when I wrote Queenie, I would think I was about 26, 27, it came out when I was 29 and it is about a 25-year-old black woman who is navigating life, love, work, trauma. and straddling to cultures and not quite making make sense of either of them.

But a lot of it was actually, I guess it is core. It was about her relationship with her mom, her relationship with herself, her relationship to abandonment and attachment and how those things kind of shaped and formed her and I guess shaped and formed a lot of her trauma. But as you say, it was, I guess, I never wanted to hit people over the head with, I guess, pain and sorrow and sadness. So as much as it was a little bit traumatizing, it was also. allegedly very funny.

And, you know, the hell of dating back then. Has it changed much now? Who knows? But I would never know now because I would never be involved in that. I'm way too mature. And so, yeah, so that's where that's where we kind of left her, not in a place of being completely fine. But she kind of had sort of worked through the sort of the breakup and understanding

that actually it was about her, it wasn't about him. And it was about how she was feeling as a person. And so when we get back to her at 33, she is at a fertility clinic. She's doing some research and it really purely is research. And I really wanted to mirror the opening of Queenie 1, where she's in the stirrups, having a gynecological assessment because her coil is stuck inside of her with, I wanted to do a call back to that. And in this, she's back in the stirrups and she's being assessed because she's researching.

You know, we all kind of have this statistic that we hear thrown around, you know, every one in four black women will die when giving birth. But I wanted to, we say that and then we don't say anything else. So I wanted to look at actually what it can be like for black women from the point of conception. Like how does that happen? Can that happen? I was doing, I was doing also loads of research to understand these things for the novel because I was like, there's something going on here, but we're not talking about it enough.

So I thought, okay, we're going to get Queenie to do this. We're going to get Queenie on the ground. And so she's told, it's not really a spoiler, but she's basically told, oh, this might not happen for you in the way that you always thought it would. And that kind of sends her into free fall, but I always promised myself and I guess kind of promised her as a character that I wouldn't come back to her until I had good reason. So I didn't just want to, you know, spend her 20s with her just having some sex or just going on dates or like having work trouble for no reason. I was like, we're going to come back to her and there's something to say, you know?

Yeah. And that perfectly leads me on to my question, which is some writers talk about, these huge characters that they're especially well known for is almost like living externally to them. And just when you said that, it made me wonder, do you feel that she's almost this living, breathing entity in the world and you kind of touch back in with her? What is the creative process for you? Or is it like, as you say, it's more intentional. She's a vessel for these things that are very important to you, these topics that you want to express and explore and kind of unravel through her. Yes, great question. And Queenie absolutely is a vessel for me. I think when I was like, like I said, 25, 26, like working the world out and being in my 20s.

I was like, I can't do this by myself. And I feel like back then I wasn't in therapy the way that I am now. And also even my friends, like we didn't, my friends were all very open and we talk about things. But we also just didn't have the language because we were young and we were just figuring all this stuff out. And I felt like it was easier for me to put all of this stuff into a character rather than just to keep sort of going around the circles of people.

We just didn't know what was going on. And so, yeah, so Queenie to me has never been, I don't know if I would. would say she's not sent it because of course she exists and of course, you know, I can think about like what she'd be doing if someone asks me, but I guess I've been writing for like a decade and I've created so many characters and, you know, I've done YA, I'm doing a children's book,

there's like TV, there was obviously champion that was a musical. So there were all of these different characters and all these different worlds that have in my head. So I think they, I guess, exist as sort of like, yeah, worlds where I'll just like hop in and work some things out. But yeah, Queenie has always been to me.

a way of being like, what's the world saying? And I guess also through somebody who, I guess, looks like me in a way that I didn't have when I was growing up, I didn't have that many characters in books or in TV shows that looks like me or I could, you know, like apply like what they were going through to what I was going through because we kind of had a shared experience of navigating the world. It was me being like we have to kind of start from scratch and make something and work things out, as it were. It's so interesting.

So you mentioned there all your other work, your TV shows. your books. I mean, now you've mentioned that you're writing for children. I want to know everything. I'm sure you can tell us very little, but I'm going to pick your brain later. You mentioned Champion, which is a show. Brilliant TV show, actually, you created him a few years ago, which is about like sibling bonds and when siblings clash. People person is about the many children of Cyril Pennington, who is like this wayward patriarch and like bonds formed across like a very difficult situation, very different people. And in Queenie in both books, it's, there's so much depth to the family and relationships between cousins.

and chosen family with friends and grandparents and like mothers and daughters. I wonder like what is it about the family, especially in the context of Black Britons in modern Britain, that is so interesting a topic for your work to sort of orbit around that you continue to write about it. I feel like when it comes to family and actually, funny enough, my children's book is about family, of course. Like it's like at its very core.

So it's called Family is a Feeling. So it's literally in the title. But it's about a little girl called BB, Bianca Brown. She's called BB because she loves bubble baths, like her little nickname from her mom. And her teacher says, I want you to go around and get stuff from your parents, from your family at home and collect it and put it in this sort of treasure box.

And she's like, oh, wait, my family is huge because on Monday I'm with mom, but on Tuesday I'm with Nana. And on Wednesday, I'm with my mom's best friend. And on Thursday, I'm with Auntie Janet and on Friday, you know, and then like Friday I'm with my best friend. You know, so it's about how family is kind of what you make it. And I realized that when I was growing up, all of my ideas of family.

I guess were sort of the nuclear family, you know, because that's just kind of what we had. That was kind of the idea of what was right. But I didn't come from that. And I wasn't ashamed of that. And I kind of understood that I came from a very different set up. And it was only as I got older, I realized how that different set up sort of changed me,

affected me, ruled how I saw relationships, how I saw friendships, how I saw, I guess, sitting within my family and what it meant to be in a family unit, but also to, I guess, get in your 20s. And if, you know, if you don't have like a dad around, you end up being super hyper independent. So obviously you said I've like, I hurt my back really badly. And I couldn't move. I fainted because that was in so much pain on Friday.

And I had to call my big sister and be like, I don't know what to do. So she was in my house from Friday until today, which is Wednesday. And I asked one of my friends who lives down the road. I was like, I'm really sorry. Please. I've got to do my recycling. Please could you help me. I'm really sorry.

And he said, I will do it on the condition that you stop saying sorry for asking for help but I also recognize that if I'd had probably like a male figure in my life, I would just kind of expect that somebody would help. I would expect that I would have a male figure in my life that would help or that would just kind of be a given as, you know, this person raised you and, you know, people are there to help. But I was like, wow, this shit really informs like how you like ask for help or how you reach out or how you communicate with people or how you see yourself. So yeah, I was like, I want to just, I feel like that's the space I feel comfortable speaking from because I'm still continually trying to make sense of it myself in my 30s, you know?

Totally. So I'm like halfway through the second Queenie book. And I can't believe it's so strange how much Queenie's life has mirrored mine. So I had abortion when I was 26. Obviously Queenie has a miscarriage, but there is a bit where she's thinking about like what she wants. And then at 33, she's starting to like think about her fertility. Obviously she's going on this journey where she's researching into it.

And there's a bit where she's talking about how when she imagines having a baby, it's actually she definitely imagines babies, but like men kind of come and go. And I've had that same thought before where I'm like, well, I definitely want to have a baby. And I kind of don't even factor in like who the dad is kind of like by the bye. There'll be someone, I'm sure, but they're kind of like much more blur in my imagination. Now I'm in like more of a serious relationship. That's like a clearer picture. I'm so enjoying being back with her.

The thing that I cannot get over. I mean, it's just so true to life, the hen party scenes. And, you know, the way that everyone's suddenly pregnant at the same time, the angst of your 30s and like trying to make the right decisions. but the hen party characters, all the hens, Darcy's hands, are just the worst people in the world. And I have never felt as enraged as when I was reading those scenes. Do you have fun writing those women, even though actually they are just awful,

especially Lulu, because she's just constantly making microaggressions? Do you find it fun to play with it, or are you also kind of pissing yourself off as you're writing them? No, I always have the most fun writing. I guess I have the most fun writing the drama, but also the stuff that is the most difficult, because it means that I'm also feeling everything and wrangling it through. People bring up their hen party quite a lot.

So anyone who's read it are like, oh my God, that hen party. And I'm always like, yeah, I mean, I've been on hen parties, of course. And they have never been as tricky as the one that Queenie is on. But I really wanted to think about what it felt like. I mean, that scene is about Queenie and Darcy's friendship, right? Like it's about the fact that they're still, I guess, in some sense, like this one of her best friends because they went through so much. What does it mean when you actually haven't seen each other for a long time?

You do not have that relationship anymore where you see each other every day because you're at work together. And then you're forced to recognise, okay, my world has kind of been my world and people have kind of come and gone in certain ways and you are still a part of my world. But you have actually created this whole other world. You've moved to Richmond. You have like a whole new circle and I now have to be with them for a weekend. And like what does that feel like to be so separate,

but to be there out of love for somebody that you have loved for so long? and you will continue to love. So I had loads of fun writing it just from that position of being like, Queenie is trapped here. I am trapped here with everyone. What does that mean? How am I going to have the most fun? And the most fun is to make it as rocky as possible, obviously.

I actually did go to Bath with my friend Lettis for the weekend to do research. So all of the things that Queenie did on that Hendoo I did with Lettis. But that's someone I actually really love and really enjoy spending time with. And yeah, rowing was like a, actually Lulu slash Eloise is like the main enemy. And when we went rowing, there was a really nice girl who helped us. And I was like, what's your name? And she said, it's Eloise, everyone calls me Lulu.

And I was like, hopefully you read this and you know that I have written you and this from a place of love and not a place of irritants. Irritation. Irritance. Irritation. I can write or I can make words up. You're a writer. You can make words up. The concept of picking up a bestselling book and then just being like, I'm a.

I swear I met this author. They've used my name. That can't be me. It's like my personal help. But something I wanted to ask you was, I feel like there's this piece of law, and I think you've said it in interviews before, which is because you had so much publishing experience,

part of the genius of being able to get Queenie understood by people was the succinct line. It's a black Bridget Joan. But I was wondering about your thoughts on the requirements or the relationships between successful marketing and successful art and how they work together. Yes, so the Bridget Jones, of it all, that comes from, I think, an into your conversation, or maybe even like a tweet, because it was so long ago, where I think I was talking about the

ambitions and I said, I want this to be a black Bridget Jones. And there was a comment on ambition and scale rather than story because I was like, I do not see how and why this shouldn't be in loads of houses. I don't understand why this shouldn't be like a, you know, not like a household name, but it's like kind of close to. And I think that's because when I was working in publishing, I recognised that a lot of books by black writers, they already had been, or if they were coming out, and again, there weren't many at the time that were coming out. They were sort of pigeonholed to literary fiction. And they were just on that sort of bookshelf in bookshops that was like, black fiction. And I thought, nah, that's not going to be me. I didn't understand why that should be the case. And I think I've always been someone who is like, why? Like, we can change everything. We can change anything. Who sets? the rules. Like, why why can't we do what we want? I've always been

that person and I think I will always be that person. So that was a comment on, I think also working in publishing was just a great help because it meant I understood what could be done. I understood everything that could be done. And even to this day, my publishers are like, you're not going to like this. But I'd be like, right, well, let's figure out how we could get it to work. Like, I'm not someone who just takes no for an answer. But they're used to me now. Everyone, everyone's used to me now.

The dedication in Queenie reads to all the Queenies out there, you're enough, trust me. I mean, I know from all the many posts and book clubs and reviews and personal recommendations and people who said, you have to read this book. I saw myself in this book that there are actually so many Queenie's out there in work and in life and in love who are kind of following both your example and Queenie's example in like changing workplaces, changing how they exist in the world and what they are allowed to ask for. And I kind of wonder, are you prepared for the Queenie's?

to ask for loudly a queenie in every decade, because we've had a queenie in her 20s, for having a queenie in her 30s. Do you, are you prepared for people to be clamouring for, a queen in her 40s, 50s, 60s, and so on and so forth. It was that quite daunting. No, no, no, I'm fine with that. I love that.

I think when I was writing it, I had no idea what would happen. And I think with your first, any sort of creative venture you do first, there is a luxury of being able to do it in your own time and to not know how many people will read it. And of course there's like a pressure too, but I do think now I've done it so much. There is a luxury of understanding and a privilege of understanding.

I'm just doing this. I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know if people are going to like it and people are going to care about it. Because then when it does happen and I guess it turns into what? It's then about sort of treading the line of being like, okay, who am I doing this for?

What am I doing it for? Are there new pressures now? I'm very lucky I'm someone who doesn't necessarily, I don't feel pressure in that way and I don't feel like I feel it externally because I know, I think, I know that what I write is, it feels like authentic and true and it's entertaining

and I've, you know, I feel like I've been digging it enough that I kind of have to believe in my own source as a writer and know that what I write is entertaining and good. But in terms of other people sort of needing it, I'm like, that's what it's for, that's what she's there for, you know? Like I said, I did a lot of research for this. I spoke to a lot of doctors, I spoke to a lot of people, I read different reports because I was like, this is like a whole world.

And I really want people to understand, I guess, like, what fertility means, what it can be. I think I'm most people that spend all of their 20s being terrified. I would get pregnant. And then being like, oh, yeah, but actually like, how does that happen? And realizing there's like actually a very small window in the month where that can happen. It's not just like any time, any place, anywhere. So I felt like I learned a lot. And I put all of that in, I guess, like, we learned with Queenie.

about things. And I think that I will always continue to learn, as we said earlier, she is my vehicle to do that. So there will be things in my 40s that I will be thinking about. There, you know, there's like menopause, there is marriage, there is cheating, there is divorce. There are all of these things that I know are coming in our lives in some way. And I really want to be able to work those things out and also, I guess, do it where I'm sort of taking, I'm on a journey, but I'm taking those who wish to read on the journey with me. You kind of walk the path first so then Queenie could then follow it and tell everyone about it because she is the perfect vehicle for it because she isn't a perfect character but she's always

looking to find out more and she's fallible and she gets things wrong and she gets things right and I think that she's really enjoyable to go and follow along and that whole fertility thing we've said this before but I remember thinking the same thing I remember thinking I got like as a teenager I thought if I'd got even like within a metre of a penis I'd be pregnant then through my whole 20s just terrified of getting pregnant and then I got to 32 and thought I actually quite want a baby and now I'm convinced that I won't be able to have one. Like it's just that is kind of the journey that I think you end up going on, which is just so funny.

But I think a lot has changed since the first book came out. And I think one of the things is that we've become, or some people, audiences, readers and people that go to the cinema have become quite puritanical about things. They've started to become like wanting their characters to have very obvious morals that they can understand to make the right decision in every scenario. And whenever I'm on Twitter, I'm always reading people being like, this character did this wrong so I can't really even engage with them. Is that something that you've noticed?

I think what's so nice about Queenie is she's followed on from the young woman that she was into the still young woman that she is now in a way that feels very linear and true to her rather than, I guess I do think sometimes now people, there's like a level of resistance towards the messiness people are looking for or expecting something different. But maybe that's more younger readers than our generation. I don't know if that's something you've noticed. That's a really great thought. when we did TV show, there was a lot of market research from America, from the American network

around how readers and how viewers engage with Queenie. And a lot of the feedback was, from that side, was how do we reframe the mess? Because the mess is actually, people are not loving it so much. I guess I'm not really on social media like that anymore, but like you see things, you hear things. I've got certain fan members, family members who'll come and be like, oh, I saw that someone said that they hated this thing. And I'll be like, oh, okay, thank you. I don't mind. I never, ever, ever mind.

I'm like, everyone should have an opinion. That's absolutely fine. As long as I can do my job, that's absolutely fine. I think my main thing, I get my, my fear has always been that someone would pick up my work or read something I've, I guess, I don't know, something I've written or or watch TV show and just be like, I'm bored. That's my fear. My fear isn't that anyone would be like, I don't like what the character is doing because I get that. And actually, as someone who writes these characters, I find a lot of the stuff that Queenie does really irritating.

And I'm like, get it together. But I'm like, it's okay because she will because she's just trying her best, you know? But yeah, I've never felt that sort of external pressure to make her good or to make her right or to make her smart or to streamline her experiences because she has to have experiences and she has to fill things through. And also, more than anything, I do not want to be bought while I'm writing. You know, this is my job. And I think more than anything with books,

you are sitting either in your bed or at your desk or on a sofa by yourself. And you have to be interested to what you're doing else it will not be good, you know? I feel like, even in this novel, I was like, oh, that's what she's done here is probably, I don't know if people will like that. And I'm just like, yeah, we'll push harder. I think criticism is a good thing. I think it's a really good thing. And actually, the older I've got, the more, I'm like, yeah, sure, everyone.

And also now every single person has some sort of opinions. And if they're not saying it to, you know, their friends, it's now like they're going to go on TikTok and talk about it or they're going to go on some sort of, I don't know, they're going to go on some sort of social media platform and say how much they hate something. And it's like, yeah, okay. If that's how you feel, that's how you feel. It's not a problem. That's such a healthy relationship to it and you're so right, everyone has an opinion. So it's like either you can welcome it and you can revel in the fact that your piece of art has triggered interesting discussions, arguments, whatever, which is the point of really good, compelling art or it can just be a nightmare. So I think, yeah, that is really inspiring to hear that as somebody who can be very sensitive, to be honest, me.

This is something that I want to ask and don't feel like you have to answer it. But I saw something in The Guardian over the weekend about the Queenie adaptation. And I think a lot of people would be surprised to hear about what a negative experience it was for you. And I was wondering if you'd be open to talking about what that looked like and what was the reality of adapting something so special and so important and so beloved onto a screen and not being a healthy or good experience for you. No, of course. Ask away. But also, just to go back to what you said very quickly, be sensitive. I'm still sensitive. I'm still incredibly sensitive. I'm wildly sensitive. However, I have people around me and I can say, I felt this thing and I didn't, it didn't make me feel good. And I think sometimes that's enough to be able to be like, I didn't feel good about this. It made me feel exposed or when me feel sad.

I mean, I feel like I wasn't good at my job. And then you just have to say it and just like sit with it, work with it and then move on, I think. But be sensitive. You can't be creative and not be sensitive. It's just impossible because I think you then shut down different parts of yourself. If you decide not to be affected by something, other things will go with it. you can never just be like, okay, I'm just going to turn that off now. It doesn't work.

But no, so, I mean, I can, you know, like I said, in the intro, it's careful enough. It's an experience where you've written this novel. It wasn't, you didn't really have any ideas for it. It's meant to be this incredible thing. So many people are talking about it and buying it and engaging with it. And you have loads of production companies who are like, okay, no, come and meet us and come and talk to us.

And you're like, okay, cool. And it's quite overwhelming. And then you decide, okay, we're going to do this and we're going to work on this. And actually, the process just doesn't end up being what you think it's going to be. And I think it's that, you know, I am a writer who I'm okay to go there. I'm okay to be daring. I'm okay to take risks. But I think also when I signed up to do it, that was in 2017.

So it was before the book even came out. And then obviously streamers came in in a massive way across that time. And I think that just meant everyone is way more risk of us. So they're like, okay, but how are we going to make sure people watch the next episode? This idea of bingeability wasn't a thing. when I first started developing the TV show. And so things were changing. I was like writing it in a transitional period.

Different people were coming and going. And I'm someone who is really heartstrong in my ideas. I'm really passionate and I'm like, okay, this is what I want to say. This is what I want to say. And this is how I feel like I can connect with people. And when that is sort of questioned and then agreed upon and then someone turns around and is like, what? We never said that.

It makes you feel fucking mental. And I think I just spent a lot of the time feeling insane. because I would agree on something and then I would be told, what, that didn't, we didn't, no, sorry, that's changing completely. We didn't. And you're just like, oh, okay. And I think that when you are writing or you've written a black protagonist, you kind of want people to believe that you know what you're talking about

if you are also black, you know? And then when that doesn't happen and you're sort of constantly, I guess, defending sort of just normal things. It's like, okay, well, I'd like her family to take their shoes off when they come in the house. That's the thing that I understand. Why is that being questioned? Why is that like, yeah, okay, it's going to take that an extra second, but that feels culturally relevant.

I feel like I was always fighting for my life when it came to cultural relevance and touchpoints that I understood that should, you know, like furnish a story and serve a story. So it was that. And of course, it was just never going to be enjoyable when you are just being questioned all the time about something that feels like it wasn't his second. nature. And I'm not saying just because the novel was a success, the TV show will also be a success. And I just know everything because I'm someone I like to learn. I love to be collaborative. My ears are open. My heart is open. I'm like, this is a creative space. I let's all make it work. But yeah, when it feels like dishonesty is a big part of a process, you are never going to enjoy yourself. That is so damning for so many reasons. One, because Queenie was such a big success,

I imagine by the time that you actually got to the point of making the show. And so the idea of not listening to the creator who had engaged these audiences, who had made people feel seen, who were loving that story and feeling like their creative agency was something that could be pushed back on or dismissed. It just shows that I think kind of everything that is wrong with entertainment and kind of this like top down. I mean, you get it in kind of every creative industry when you get a commercial entity trying to buy creative rights to something and they think they know best because like you said, they're very risk of us or they have all these parameters and statistics and things that they think no work. And it's like more often than not, I feel you hear it.

it all the time from everyone, which is why everyone starts creating independent production companies or they start doing their things in their own way. It's like if people just listen to creatives and allow them to create with their own voice, I think we would have much more really entertaining, amazing TV, film, whatever it might be, whereas more of the not, it's really only those top few creators who have the cash and the money to do it themselves that really get that full agency. And I think it's a shame to think a book as big as Queenie, you being the author of it, weren't given the credence to say, actually, I do know what I'm talking about, especially because so much of it comes from your own lived experiences, that's a real shame to her, to be honest.

But you know, with heated rivalry, I don't know if you've all seen that. So it's something that I like bingedged in one night. I thought it was incredible. I loved it so much. And then obviously when you watch something and engage in it on like social media, like on TikTok, I'm a big TikTok lurker, all these interviews come up. And I saw the creator, the showrunner, so not the author. the showrunner say he was trying to get it made and loads of different networks were like, okay, but only if we change this, only if we remove the intimacy

and maybe we could have, you know, like a moment of intimacy, but on episode five. And obviously we love it because it's so racy. And so like from the jump, it is like so sexy and so hot and so daring. So he was like, no, no, no, I'm not going to make it with any of you. I'm going to go back to Canada. I'm going to make it there.

Thanks. Bye. See ya. And I could see why. You can see because everyone now is so terrified. of doing anything that kind of slips out of a formula, but people love that show and engage in it because it's different. You know, it's just like, it just kind of feels like a, it feels like a no-brainer. And it's that idea people are making shows now to go viral. It's not enough.

It's not to make a good show that perhaps will be a cult hit and beloved and really artistically sound and really resonate. It's like, well, we've got to go viral. We've got to get these viewing figures immediately or it's a bust. And I hate that model. We've talked on a podcast a lot about we're losing the kind of center point of art because we are only, there's the individual. productions which are on a shoestring and with amazing creatives, but they don't really get seen,

oh, there's massive budget stuff. And there's so much in between. It is just so, including heated rivalry. I mean, it's a long observed thing. Even Stephen King, he hated The Shining, which is a critically acclaimed film. There's always going to be maybe a gap between how something comes off. But then I guess it's quite safe to, or quite reassuring to return back to bookwriting. That is your universe. What you say goes. Could you talk to all about your team? Do you have an editor that you have returned to, do you feel with book writing that you really do have this universe of your fingertips and actually you can fully put into the book what you want without that same curtailing as it were? So with books, there is more of a freedom, which does and

doesn't work with which I'll come back to in a second. But I have an editor called Katie who was with me from the beginning and she is a white woman who lives in South London. And I used to work with her. I used to see her walking around when I worked at Harper Collins when I was in my really early 20s and I just thought she was really cool and whoever was with her was always laughing because she was always saying something that was really funny and I was like, okay, she seems funny, she seems cool. And so I would like lurk around her and like lurk behind her. And when I had, I guess, conversations with different publishers about who would publish this, I just felt the most attuned to her because she was, I felt like she was always going to push me. She said, you can do a

sequel to this at some point, but not now, because I don't want everyone just to start seeing you as the person who writes Queenie, and that's it. And so that's why People Person was born, and she's always been very patient. And more than anything, just very understanding. And she could see what was happening to me and happening to my head when I was in TV. Because I went for a walk with her to talk about People Person. And it was like lockdown time. So it was like, we're just doing social distancing. And she brought me hot chocolate with some little marshmallow. knows she's got kids so she treats me like one of her kids and she said right drink that tell me how you feel just talk to me about how you feel and I was talking to about stuff and she was like okay great

like I love it and here are the things I'd like to change and I think I said like okay and a few months day so she said there is something about the way that you said okay that made me realize that you want because you always used to push back and you would always push back but with passion and with confidence and with understanding but the fact that you just turned around and said okay in a really sort of sad and sorry way, she was like, no, something isn't right with you. So when it came to writing the sequel, obviously I did champion, I did Queenie TV and she was very patient throughout that. And eventually she was like, you are taking the piss now because you are so pushing your contract. So I do need the second novel from you. But we sat down and we spoke about it. And I think

with that, I just really wanted to, I guess, make her proud because I had to kind of thank her for like waiting for five years for me to do this thing. I was meant to do years ago. But we have a great working relationship. And actually, I was writing it. And I tried a few times to get back into it. But my confidence wasn't there. My confidence as a writer wasn't there.

I think I just felt, I was just like, what's the point in saying anything? Like, what's the point at this point, you know? And that's so far from my base. That's so far from my baseline. Like, it's like sort of like alarmingly far from it. And I went and sat with her. And I just cried.

And I was like, I don't think I can do it. I don't know what I. I'm saying, I don't know why I'm saying it. And she just looked to me and she was like, right, all right, you need a summer, go away, go somewhere, just turn everything off as much as you can. Don't think about me. Don't think about this book. Don't think about anything.

And that's what I did. And I started writing it again, I think at the end of summer. And I was like, okay, okay, I can do it. But I just needed my head back and I needed someone to say that. Because if she'd been like, well, look, you're in, you know you're in contract. And I was so terrified to say any of it, turning it, because I'd so. push my contract, but she was like, your head is the most important thing here, actually. So, yeah, so having that relationship has basically underpinned why I'm able to do what I can do.

There were definitely differences. And she was like, I can tell you've been working in TV because you don't describe things anymore. You just wait for like a set design team to come and like put them in. But also, it was weird because I'd be writing things. I'd be like, do you want to see this chapter? Do you want to see like where I am? And she was like, no, not really. Just deliver the book. And I'd be like, I know, but I've just written this. And I think. maybe I don't know if I'm in the right direction and she was like yeah cool we'll figure out when you do you live with the book but then obviously she's like do you need me do she's like realize you like do you need me to actually be looking at this stuff all the time and I was like I think so I think

I just need to know that I'm sort of on the right path and like you know because with the TV show you're doing things episode by episode and you're constantly planning and micro planning and then like rearranging you might do one scene for three weeks and then with a novel it's like yeah just give me this hundred thousand words in three months and it's like yeah Okay, it's difficult. But yeah, it's just, it's two very different processes, but actually there was something about being able to go back to books and actually just have that piece and actually build that confidence up again in myself that I knew what I was saying over 100,000 words. I think I needed that. Katie sounds just like the dream agent, her being perceptive and just

saying what you needed rather than listening to what you were actually saying. My gosh, she just sounds so perfect and like so great for what a creative needs as well. Because sometimes you do need somebody to tell you take a break. We're going to put business to the right. You take a break. We'll address it later. Yes. And I won't do that. Like I've said, obviously, I have a bad back and it got worse because I just kept doing stuff. I just kept being like, it will figure itself out. I'm strong. I should just be able to just get on with it. And I'm not going to go to the doctor and I'm not going to take any painkillers. I'm just going to to the point where I woke up in agony and there was a delivery and I went to the front door,

open the door. The delivery driver was long gone because obviously the driver just come and throw the package at your house and run away now. But I saw these two boxes of books that my publishers had sent and I pulled one box in and I just fainted because I was in so much pain. That's mental. Why have I got there? Stay still. Why are you doing this? You're mad. So yeah, lessons. Lessons have been learned. But yeah, I just feel like having people around to be like, okay, we get it. But just like you're one human. We need you here is really important. It's kind of like having to prove to yourself because you feel so self-sufficient that you're like, well, I can't let myself down.

So I'm going to get through this. And it's kind of, it is that thing, which is really hard to learn, especially when everything in this world is just telling us to be productive. I am quite productive, but my feeling and need to be productive has got worse over the last five years, I'd say. If you look around, it feels like everyone is doing everything all at once all the time. And you think if you like take your foot off the pedal at any moment, you're suddenly going to be left behind. But with time, I have learned actually just like taking a day off, you'll probably be way more productive

than if you suffer through trying to eke out stuff and you're really just not at that point. For sure. And I think that as you say, it's like sort of seeing, and I love to see what people have achieved. And like we said earlier, I love to see how people are achieving things independently. And like going out and being like, okay, cool, I didn't get funding for this, but I'm going to try and make it work. And then someone like jumps onto that. And they're like, I would love to invest in you. Like this one of, you know, that's obviously such an amazing thing to see. But also like we all do. Everyone is amazing. I think that everyone has something. I think it's just about how we're able to share it. And I feel like people are doing. this more and more because we're seeing that there is appetite for people to actually connect with, I guess, like, micro stories rather than having to, you know, it's obviously like, yeah, fantasy and like romanticity and all of these things are really great and they're flying, but I also think people really love that every day. I think that's really important too. And I think being able to express that is really important. But on the flip side, it means that we now feel like we should be a machine for that. And it feels like the personal is meeting

capitalism, I think, in a way that is exhausting. Yeah, sometimes you just watch, people and you're like, I'm going to achieve. And it's like, the only thing I'm going to achieve is burnout. I just have one more question that I really wanted to ask, which is like, like an only, I just turned 33. So I was like, okay, this is a bit of me. And it's so the London dating scene. The way that you capture this in both books is so spot on. I was laughing aloud so much at, so it's the bit where Queenie and Cheska are messaging and Cheskay calls a man, Queenie is seeing TFL man instead of, she knows his name very well, but she does not call him that. I was like, that's so bang on and not to at all prior into your personal life. But what was

a process of like fact-checking, researching, getting down that realism of the dating scene both for Queenie and her age mates, which is obviously all of our age mates, but also like Diana, her cousin who is 21 at uni, which is generationally like such a different experience. I wouldn't have a clue where to begin. What was your process of getting on the page, something which does read as so completely true to life? I mean, when it comes to Queenie and her romantic thread, I have not lived it as it is in the book but I've lived it. I have lived it. So that's what I sound like. Everyone has a nickname, you know?

Like I have so many friends who are just like, I'm not calling him that. Like that's what like we will know him as this. We will know him as that. But I think when it comes to even like Diana's relationships and I think everyone's relationships because there are a lot of relationships. Obviously like Cassandra is like, you know, she's working on herself. But like Darcy has been a long time relationship. And yeah, Diana is in a relationship.

She's in her 20. She's at university. but I can't explain how much I just listen to people. And not in like a weird, like creepy, like eavesdropping way, but I'm just someone who really listens to people. And I really, really love. And I've always loved human dynamics in relationships. I think that's probably because as relationships go,

it feels like my, not my weakness is, I guess, where I'm challenged most. I'm not very good. I think I always describe myself as emotionally autistic. I'm not very good at just like the social cues of romance or maybe like understanding the subtext of it. all. So yeah, I just, I don't know, I feel like it's something that I'm learning still. And I think because of that, I have to work really, really hard to understand, like, how people got in relationships. Like, what did you say to her? What did you say to him? Like, how did you? And like, what was your

first date? Like, how did you make that work? And actually don't use the term like emotional autism lightly. I'm being tested for autism because we realized that my dad is autistic in his 60s. Because I was like, you have a different way processing things. And me and my, my sibling were like, we should also go and figure that out too. I don't use it as like a catch-all phrase, but I do know that it's something that I struggle with. So I'm like, what are the cues? What am I looking for?

And I think because of that, I'm so finely attuned to other people's romantic statuses or the ways that they're able to navigate these things. I think it, yeah, I think that when you sort of weirdly do your social research, that stuff, it really works when it comes to writing because I've got relationships, fictional ones for other people down. That's so interesting. interviewed Nisha Dolan years ago about her book, Exciting Times, which I think might have come out around the similar time. And she talks quite a lot about her autism. And I remember asking her about how she was able to perceive people so much. And she had the same answer. She was like, it's because I'm always asking, like, what is everyone doing and how do they know what they're doing? So I'm constantly kind of paying attention and really observing. Whereas if you move through the world in a way of like, this all makes sense to me. Of course, this is what's happening. It's everything just feels sort of like it's just in the ether. It's just in the air. You don't really have to pay attention. Candice, is there anything.

that you want to plug or are there any kind of channels you want to direct people to or any kind of last thoughts you want people to land on before we let you go. Okay, so my only thing is I'm doing, I think I'm doing seven events. My chiropractor is coming today. So I'm going to be ready for those seven events. But my only thing is I'm doing events. I'm doing an event in Bath, in Liverpool. I'm doing an event in Birmingham. I'm doing a event in Brighton. And I'm doing one in London. And I'm doing one at the Royal Albert Hall. And there's someone else. So I'm missing. but I would love for people to come to my events because actually the biggest reward for me, and it's only like my bio on Insta, but the biggest reward for me is being able to talk at events

to people who really love books and really care about stories. And like the reward of having to do it because I'm still terrified of public speaking is like the signing queue afterwards when I get to talk to people one on one and sign their book, but also just people just tell me things. And that's my favorite thing because you don't really get to do it otherwise because people don't think you want to talk about stuff. but I do. I'm like, people come up to me in like the shops and they're like, why did you do this with this character? And I'd be like, let me tell you. So yeah, come to events and talk to me is my

is my request, is my plug. We will literally link this in our show notes because very helpfully, the Queenie is working on at Tor has got a brilliant poster and you can buy all the tickets to the events. So you've made it very, very easy. We'll link back in the show notes. Thank you so much to all of you for listening and Candice for being such a brilliant fourth voice in our conversation. If there's any. else that you'd love for us to talk to, please do let us know in the Spotify comments or our DMs. Don't forget to leave us a review and give us a follow on Instagram and TikTok at Everything is ContentPod. We'll see you as always on Friday. Bye. Bye.