Everything Is Content - Everything in Conversation: Cute Debt

Episode Date: September 24, 2025

Pop your card into the EIC-ATM and get ready to withdraw some content- because this week we're talking all about the rise of "cute debt" and whether buy-now-pay-later schemes are really targeting the girls.In a recent piece for The Atlantic, Annie Joy Williams explores how female shoppers are being heavily marketed to by the likes of Klarna and Afterpay, who are drawing on fun, girly aesthetics to sell their services and make debt seem fun, silly and generally NBD! We share our own experiences and hear from you at home about why so many of us are falling victim to a splash of pink, a celeb endorsement and a cute Y2K moment.Thank you for all of your messages this week! If you're really in the mood to spoil us, how about a five star rating wherever you're listening right now? Thank you so much! Lots of love,R, O, B xoThe Atlantic - The Rise of 'Cute Debt'The Guardian - Where did it all go wrong for Wonga? Emma Budget App Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, it's Liv Little. It's Miranda Sawyer here and we are the hosts of the newest culture podcast out there. We have notes from The Observer. As writers, we give and take notes all the time. It's part of the fun, especially when it comes to culture. But now we're sharing our thoughts on the most interesting stories dominating the zeitgeist. No headlines skimming here. We promise to give you the insightful takes, plenty of debate and a recommendation or two.

Listen to new episodes of We Have Notes every Wednesday wherever you get your podcast. I'm Beth. I'm Ruggira and I'm Anoni and this is Everything in Conversation. The first of our two weekly servings of content, discourse, pop culture analysis and more. If you enjoy Everything is Content, please do leave us a rating and a lovely five-star review on your podcast player app. It helps others find us and means we can hopefully keep making the show for a very, very long time. On the subway, a few weeks back, I noticed an ad for a buy-now pay later service from cash up. It read, little payments are so much cuter.

This ad wasn't made for men, I thought. It writes Annie Joy Williams for the Atlantic. I've actually never really thought about this before, but she's so right. The ads for services for Klarna and things like that are often in bubblegum pink and advertised on fast fashion websites, which usually are frequented more heavily by women. obviously Garmath was a massive thing in the summer of 2020. And I even did an interview about why I was like, it's just a silly thing, but maybe it's had a stronger hold on our attitude towards spending than we had hoped. William cites in the piece that social media

is one of the biggest factors in spending money that we don't have. And she quotes her friend who is in $15,000 of debt describing social media as our generation's home ownership. She writes, our feeds with their photos of meals or outfits are the way we we proved that we've made it? She said, it's like our white picket fence in a world where none of us can actually afford a house. We had so many messages on this topic, but I wanted to ask you both, what did you make of the piece and what is your relationship with by now pay later services? So I really enjoyed this piece. I thought it was really good. I think the point about it being aestheticised in this very like cutesy way was really true. I've definitely thought about

Klanah being, you know, the millennial pink before. And I think that point has been made previously like a few years ago when Klanah was coming up and it became very clear that your credit score could be affected by them, which was not made clear at the beginning of Klanah popping up, might I add. But I think the kind of specific feminized aesthetic, the kind of cutesy, cutesy language around, you know, treat culture, borrowing a little bit, you know, looking after yourself, self-care under the guise of just rampant capitalism that is not necessarily affordable to people has only gotten worse and worse and worse. And I thought the point about home ownership and what we look at in lieu of the kind of

traditional markers of wealth and stability, now being a handbag, a certain materialist object, a holiday, all of these things being place markers for the fact that so many people can't get their foot on the property ladder, can't, you know, have these traditional markers of growing up the generations before I used to have was such a good point. And it really, yeah, it really kind of helped shape my view of all of these things and also made me just think, God, I just, it makes me really worried about how much debt is being encouraged and how much it's being lightened across the media and just kind of marketed towards us. And I think it is really dangerous. In terms of my relationship to buy now pay later, I've been privileged enough to

not ever, you know, not ever use them. I've never wanted to because I'm really scared to use them. I didn't get a credit card for years because I was so scared of it. And I think just the fear of getting into debt and the privilege of not having to get into debt apart from student loans has, you know, stopped me using them. And I'm lucky in that respect, but also I have a huge amount of fear around them. What about you, Beth? So I, I used Clana. The summer it was quite a big deal. The summer it was suddenly an option on ASOS predominantly. It was like a whole summer and I used it then and never again since. I didn't have a particularly bad experience. There was just one. Well, I had mismanaged my repayments. I'd just forgotten one or like I thought I'd paid one and it failed and then

this thing. Like for a month afterwards I hadn't paid and I was really, I got the fear up me that I was like, okay, I'm never going to be able to buy a house, which has proved true, but not for the reason of Klanah. It really rattles me just like it's an extra admin and I sort of thought like I'm taking a risk even if it's maybe a minute risk with my credit health, my financial health. And for what? Like an ugly puffer jacket, a hideous distressed denim jacket from ASA's. I just thought it's not worth it for me. I was only using it for and at that time I think you could only really use it for the non necessities. Now it's rolled out like you can book a holiday with Klanai. You can buy groceries with Klanai. You can do this, that and the other. I think maybe

Klanar and Uber. At that point, I was like, I don't need this and I could so easily live without it, but I could also see myself getting hooked. I genuinely was like, ha ha, this is all free or like, ha, I can do, I can shop so much more. This is the point of it. Like, the way that they make money is by saying to retailers, like, women will shop so much more if you attach this button. If you allow them to buy an order in excess, they are way more likely to keep in excess and and pay for it later because it's not real money. I was like, I am so, I am the, target demographic for this for I'm feeling a little bit low and also the point about home ownership I think ties into this I'm feeling a little bit low I actually don't have much

in the way of stability and certainty but what I can have is like identity markers I can have the right outfit I can have something that makes me feel like a real person in the world I can appear I've got my shit together even though I absolutely don't by buying the right things and I just could see myself gathering items in pursuit of something that was never going to come And so I have broken up with, I want to say this was like 2019, but I might be wrong. I think it says in the article, I have been broken up with them since then. So six years I've not used that. I think I just, I was afraid.

And I felt myself getting a little bit too reliant on this and getting carried away. And so I think my opinion of it has been shaped by my own experience. And when I hear people still use it, I'm like, oh, I thought I forgot we all did that. I kind of thought we'd all moved on and only what about you, do you use them? I've also never used them a bit like Richerra. I was just too scared that I would end up getting myself into a pickle by using it. But it's interesting that you mentioned ASOS because all of, and that being your kind of gateway into using it because every single message pretty much

that we had people using it was around on those fast fashion services. And I do think that's because it's just given to you as an option. And when it's broken down and it says interest free as they do, which is obviously if you pay it off in time, it feels like a no-brainer. And actually there is a new regulation. that the FCA has just announced on the 18th of July, that from next year, from the 15th of July 2026, they're going to start regulating by now pay later services, which as of yet they aren't. And we had a message from Vicky, which said, I used to get myself into trouble using it.

I already had a credit card debt and would see this as free money to worry about later and didn't see it as debt. But then naturally after 30 days, it would be due and I didn't have the money. So I'd end up using my credit card anyway and wrecking up more debt and feeling awful about it. I've now cleared my credit card and only use Kana when I know I can afford it next month. It took me getting to quite a lot of debt to learn the lesson and I was lucky enough to be able to move home to save up to pay it off. I definitely think it's a slippery slope and so dangerous. But then again, sometimes it can be really helpful if you're before payday and don't want to use your credit card as it feels less debty.

So I don't know what the answer is as saying it's up to people to manage their own money and not the company's fault feels harsh as it can be so easy to emotionally spend and get into trouble. And I think that debt and kind of honestly around debt also could be a really interesting subject. So I was reading around this and the statistics on especially like younger people, A, not having any savings, but B having, you know, thousands of pounds worth of debt just floating around at any given time are quite vast. And I think that this idea of kind of keeping up the Jones as social media and maybe a lack of transparency around how people are affording things then encourages people again, especially when it's advertised in this cute. way to feel like an easy way to be part of the conversation to be part of the moment whether it's just like the latest style of jeans that's in and actually it's putting people into such difficult positions and when you think just how they advertise it it does feel so icky can i say something that might be it's tangential but it broke my brain realizing it just kind of observing from

the sides i think i didn't necessarily realize the more you're in fashion beauty, lifestyle spaces. And if you are, whether that's, you know, a journalist or possibly an influencer or some kind of person with power in some regard, the more kind of free stuff you get. And I think visually, it just kind of compounds interest in how well dressed you look, the amount of things you get, the amount of like access you have to the latest things. So I think when you're not in those places and you're wondering how do people manage to, you know, look the best, where the latest things, access to the best restaurants, all these kind of things. It is just, it is kind of impossible unless you are at the centre of those circles, whether

you're, you know, the right editor at a magazine, whether you have a large enough audience, all these kind of things. I kind of wrote about this and bad influence, it's like the problem is, in order to keep the industries of like fashion influence and going, the people selling, those products have to have a constant stream of those products entering into their lives, their households and their image, which then instead of that just being like, I'm showing you everything that's available, pick and choose what you like, it started to encourage the lay person to think that they also need a constant steady stream of multiple orders coming in

every, and it's like that was actually never the, the idea wasn't that like someone doing a hall was encouraging other people to buy a hall. It was that you'd then maybe look at that and pick one or two items. But what happened was the lay person, people that aren't influencers or journalists or people that have access to being gifted items also wanted the same level of consumerism in their own lives, which is just completely unattainable and unmanageable, although feels like it's more attainable because of fast fashion being so much cheaper due to its unethical labour costs. But then you introduce something like Plana, and it means that everyone feels like they're a step closer to attaining that level of consumption. And I'm a bit like

you were too, I'm lucky because I kind of opted out of fast fashion. I don't really see any of that. And actually, I'm not that frequently confronted with Klarna. The only time that I saw it recently was when I was booking an Airbnb to go to my friend's wedding. It doesn't actually, I'm not really on shopping websites very much. In that moment, I was like, oh, maybe I'll get on Klarna because it felt nicer to think that I'd pay less than three months. But I was like, that's just stupid. I'll just pay it from my account because it's only going to end up being more of an issue. But there is something nicer about a smaller number with that zero interest.

But luckily, I do have that fair of credit. Because I have actually in the past when I first got my credit card, fallen into the trap, I think he had free money, and I learned the lesson the hard way that it's not free money because you do have to pay it back. I think for this reason, it's why I'm always really grateful to women that I know, but also just women on the internet who make content about debt. And it is women talking to other women. It's very specific to the shopping habits and the consuming habits of women and how easily, unless you get a comprehensive financial education from, and it would have to be apparent because God knows we're not getting it in schools

early on before you have your first credit card and you think, okay, well, everyone else's gone. I'm a grown up. I can manage this. I'm going to keep it on top of this. And suddenly you go, oh my God, what's an interest rate? What's this? What is the minimum payment and stuff? Like, I remember getting my credit card. My parents are really financially wise and just, I think my mom just said, okay, these are the things you're going to use it for. It's going to be like big tick items. You're going to spend. You're going to book a flight on this. If you're going to go into America, I think that was where I was going or traveling. You're going to book the flight on this, reap the rewards and pay it off. You're going to have enough money to pay it. And then I think,

she was like, I'm going to look after this because you're 18 years old. And I'm so thankful that she did because I was unable to then have secret spending habits and be like, no, no, no, like I'm an adult. I've got a job. I can manage this. I think it could have spiraled. And so I see these women making this content. And it's really like non-judgmental. But like it's advice that we need because it can so quickly spiral, especially as companies are really complicit in being like, come on girlies. Like you deserve this. Pay days coming up. Or you can do this or kind of like, you've worked hard this month and there are so many good spending habits that do involve spreading out the cost that do involve using a credit card wisely so that you get points so that you get a great credit score

paying it off in this way but you have to know if you don't know you don't know and it is no skin off their nose if you are indebted to them it's a really predatory circular system and so and i think a lot of people in our dms were saying the same they were like it was clana it was um i forget the monzo one i was in thousands of pounds of debt or i still kind of constantly have this overhead of like 250 pounds. I'm egged on by other women. Claire said on this, I work fashion retail and we have an all-girl team and we're all horrendous for using Klarna constantly. It can be used as payment in the store we work in. Something new comes in. Say we don't get paid for a couple of weeks. Stick it on clana is the standard. We almost egg each other on with it. You want the dress, so have it.

Potentially because we all do it, it feels more normal amongst us, but I constantly owe about 250 pounds on it all the time. Which it's an amount of debt that actually can be quite stressful, especially if life happens and suddenly the £250 that you know is coming, suddenly is earmarked for something else. And by the time that happens, you can't then return the dress, you can't then get your money back. I think, I don't think women have it out for each other, but I do think we can be a bit complicit in this, well, you deserve it. You probably do deserve it. But unfortunately, it doesn't mean you can always have it. And I, and so for that reason, I just, I seek out women that are making good financial decisions, who perhaps made terrible financial decisions. And I do, I try and live like that because of my fear of In a world, I think, when we don't really have, I don't have property or assets, but it's like, okay, but at least the only debt I have currently is my student debt. I think that's a huge privilege, but it's also that is the only thing that I feel that I can control. But some people, it gets its claws in and sudden the whole of your 20s 30s is spent just trying to dig yourself up the hole. And I think we should be really frightened of that and really leery of companies that are like, come on, come on in. Come on. You can have this. It's just a little treat. And it's like, it's dozens of little treats and you don't really need or want them. I think everything you said is so true. And that's so fascinating about feeling like making sure that you don't get into debt is one of those things that you feel like you can control or has become this sense of security for you without being able to get onto the property ladder. I bet a lot of people will really relate to that. And I can feel like a lot of people would go the other way, like the piece said, where because of not being able to get on the property ladder, then it becomes a case of, oh, well, what's the fucking point? This doesn't mean that much. This doesn't mean that much. And then it builds up. So it's really interesting how, different, I guess, people's perspectives can be on it. We got a message from Katie who said, I use it, but always pay it off in full. It's good for a big order with different sizes, can try and return before paying, but not sure how much their target market are educated

on the importance of paying in full. So it feels a bit shady or preying on vulnerable, but bank loans are similar. Systemic issue, question mark. And that's something I definitely found, because I remember when Klanar first came up, I think it would have been the first year of me being at uni. So maybe like 2014, 2015, I feel like they were, you know, popping off at festivals, giving around these like pink caps, at Redding and Leeds. And I remember people just like wearing the caps. And it just seemed so bubbly and just fun. And like there's just no downsides to this concept. And I remember not reading anywhere that credit score was involved. I remembered none of the kind of language from the initial marketing talking about repayments and what that

look like. It's only when you got to the checkout and it said the breakdown of three payments. And even then, I don't remember, because I never went through with it, I never remember seeing any kind of fine print on what would happen if you don't make those payments. So I'm sure they would make you sign through once you got past the initial kind of breakdown of what the cost would be. But it is interesting how really important context just is missing. And I guess the, I don't know, the like font of it or the kind of like cutciness, like the piece said, you wouldn't get a credit card being like bestie how you doing do you want to have a fun night out in the town like why don't you just come join and just like you know fuck savings who gives the shit t he he he it's interesting

the concept of the returns and like using it as a buffer for when you're sending things back we had a message from dina that said i was always so against using anything like clana for fear of how easy it be to fall into some very dangerous spending habits then i used it as a one-off and before i knew it i was relying on it i was constantly spending above my means and saying i'd pay it back the following month put them the next month, I'd have to pay $700 to pay out. I had to delete it for a bit and get myself back into check. Now I only use it if I'm not sure about an item so that I don't have to wait to return it for my refund or if I'm ordering multiple sizes. And the multiple size to return thing is interesting because I don't know if you guys have heard about this,

but ASOS is actually thinking, or I'm not sure if it's definitely true, sure, it's going to get rid of its free returns policy because it has a massive issue of people ordering loads of different sizes and then returning them. This, for me, it's actually, I think, a really good thing because I think it's going to stop people from overbuying. items. I know it's hard when you're buying online because you can't try things on on. And also because of what a lot of those fast fashion companies do is the cost of them repacketing returned items, checking them, making sure that they're resellable is actually really high and they end up all going to landfill. A lot of the returns don't actually ever get returned. It's cheaper for

them basically just to throw the clothes away. So that's going to be an interesting thing because that cropped up in a lot of the messages with people saying like, I'm overspending with the knowledge that I'm going to get a refund. But then like Dina says, you might be doing it for that reason. But once you start, it's like anything that gets introduced into our lives like this, he's kind of like this new tech, whether it's Uber or delivery, something that feels like it makes your life easier. Once you become reliant on it, it's really hard to then not use that service. And so maybe that things like ASOS stopping it might actually stop people from getting

onto that slippery soap because it does, that seems so easy, doesn't it? Like, oh, I'm going to order four different sizes. So I'm never actually going to spend that money in the long run. So I'll just put it on Klarna. And then, yeah, once you've done it once, I can see how easy, once it's gone right once and it only takes a few times it going wrong for it to spiral. So I think that just the way that it's marketed, I don't know I'd never really thought about it before, but maybe it's because I am slightly outside of it. It's never really appealed to me. I hadn't really

paid too much attention. But now I actually, I said at the top, but I did an interview about Girl Dinner, Girl Math and I kind of was like, it's just a silly way of reclaiming girlhood, I'm all just being silly. But when you apply Girl Math to something like this and you think about the dangerous territory that it gets especially young women into, I do think, oh God, we've really unleashed like a demon dressed in glitter onto the world. It reminds me. And I know that it's a tenuous link, but I think the conversations with this always go hand at hand with the conversations about like payday loans. And obviously this is a very different loan. It is a loan, but it's not like a high interest loan as long as you are able to keep up with the terms. It's not going to

cost you anymore. Like you pay the money that you pay. But I do remember how they were advertised. And I think Wonga especially got in big trouble. And I remember these ads. They were like silly old puppets. I don't know if you, they were so bizarre and they were so, they really trivialized it. And I think they recognize their customer base. They recognize how they could sort of infiltrate that and suggest like this is again, going to make your life easier. They use these like elderly puppets and it was, they used really misleading language and they never in the, in the advertising mentioned like, oh, by the way, there's like a multi thousand percent interest rate on this. And it was such a saturation of them. I think before they were

regulated. And I think what Klarna is doing now is just they've identified who their customer base is and marketing it as like, this is a little bit of fun, but it is good. It is really heartening to think, okay, at least something, at least someone is paying attention at some point, this might get the same treatment. I remember, I think maybe it was one girl or one of the other big ones, like having to pay like quite a hefty settlement for being misleading. And I think, I'm not sure it is misleading. It is just completely reframing what is essentially living outside of your means, which is

not a fun, sexy thing, which is not a, which is a thing that causes people like a measurable pain. And also, like, it's incredibly dangerous for someone. one's, you know, financial future, but also their mental health in the meantime to be in debt. And they've just tapped into this like relentless consumerism, which we talk about all the time. And I'm always like, the images of that to me are like sort of like plasticy items or trend items. It's like the Labuboos. It's like, you don't need to have this. There's no reason to have this. But you have seven because you saw it and it was like, give me that. And the idea that you can have things that can be no delay. The market moves so fast. It's like, well, you

mustn't wait. You can't possibly wait until payday to get this labo. You can't possibly wait to get this house of sunny dress that even a year after everyone had it, it was like social suicide to buy. It's like that relentless drive to consume and it has got a female face and all the products are, whether it's a Stanley Cup, a luboo, a dress, an it bag, a weird skirt that looks like a big nappy, like it's so woven into the way that we kind of conceptualize womanhood and girlhood, as we've said, it is having. It's like a flat lay Instagram meme and it's leaving the house and not checking the balance on anything or it's like leaving the house for a quiet one and suddenly you've got four shopping bags and you're at dinner with all your friends.

It's like that is funny and relatable, but it's also the reality of that is like properly grim and you can see why people get into debt and how we are all collectively okaying it and how the companies are like. I think we're leading the way and they are just, they're probably looking at the means that we're making and going, brilliant, advertising strategy, brilliant, that's what we're going to do. It makes me wonder to touch back on your point and only why so many of us were kind of of okay with the infantilising of last year. And I think it probably was just, I don't know, a reaction to feeling culturally as if everything was just getting very serious. And I think

possibly because of, you know, the swing back to right-wing ideals, kind of trad-wifery becoming even more mainstream, it feels like now we can't get, you know, we can't leave our foot off the pedal for a second. We have to kind of, you know, stamp down on every single thing. And it feels like this year's become more serious. We've gone back the other way. We're calling out Sabrina Carpenter's album, rightly or wrongly. We're getting really frustrated with pop culture seeming regressive. We're annoyed about the infantileization of women and debt and things like that. And it feels like, I don't know, last year almost felt like we kind of wanted to let all of that go. So I don't think you should feel bad that you had that opinion. I think so much.

many of us did. We were watching Barbie. We were happy to call ourselves ourselves girls and put bows in our hair and just like kind of not think about all the serious shit. And I do think culturally we've kind of realised we just can't do that again this year. We're talking about the clana of it all of the little trees. There is also a case we made that these things, this model of things, is also helping people get by every month. Not in the same way that payday loans, they're getting money into their account. They're getting advance on the cash they're going get but it's like the things it's it's and we have ellian rdms who said the bigger issue is that cost of living keeps rising wages do not and people want to enjoy life it's not a crime to have a few

non-essential items but also it's like if your kids have a birthday coming up and you know it's not going to line up with payday and you think okay i want them to have their presence or for example like i want to do a holiday or not even just keeping up the joneses like i really life is hard and i really want a holiday to look forward to so i'm going to do it this way it's not that is a non-essential but it's also in a world like this, I don't think it's, I think it's, as a case to be made for non-essential use versus people that are like, I need to Klarna some groceries. Like I'm not going to borrow money from friends. I'm not going to get into, I'm not going to do a payday loan because I know how predatory

they are. I don't want people to know, but yeah, I might stick an Uber for my kid on this or I might stick a supermarket shop on this. I think there is different user bases. And I, ignorantly when we began this conversation, I was thinking of Klarna as, it's just used for the things that I used it for, you know, some shit fashion to cheer me up at a time when I wasn't, I wasn't quite paid enough versus what people are doing, which I think is just across the board living beyond their means because they have to. And it's like, I think we can

easily call people like financially short-sighted or why do you need this? Because you not do this a smarter way, but actually like life is hard. I think we have to be, I think we all are. I think it's that sympathy for people that get into these systems. And then I think once you're in them, it's like a maze. It's sort of like, okay, well, I've committed to this, or maybe you commit to like a really decent phone and you get this lease and you're like, I can pay that off. That's fine. I'll make more money. And then something happens. And suddenly you don't have the, you are in that shortfall. I do think that they are closed systems. I think they're really predatory. And it's like everything's a subscription now. Like it's so it's so bonkers. I think you kind of go, oh, well, that's normal, isn't? I pay for my Netflix. I pay for my this. I pay, I'm going to clan of this. And suddenly we're all fucked and these companies are living at large. It's so funny. I was literally just about to say about subscriptions. And ironically, I subscribe, pay a subscription.

It's really helpful to an app called Emma, which aggregates all of your bank accounts into one thing. And it shows you your overall money, like your overall credit cards. Like if you have more cards, it shows you your outgoings, it labels it, you can categorize it. And then it shows you your subscriptions. And not to sound like a boomer being like Netflix is why we can't buy a house. But God, it's easy to sign up to a $4.99 subscription and think,

that's only $4.99 a month. But when you add it on to the 40 other $4.99, you're paying a month, it's a hell of a lot of money. And I think we've been very primed into seeing small monthly payments that pop through on our phone that we see like one at a time come through. And you think, oh, that's not that much. And then you might get to the end of the month and you're thinking, where's all the money gone in my account? And it's all just these tiny, tiny transactions. And I do think it's because of us not having physical cash. So not having like a tangible relationship with money where we literally see it going down. It's sort of this

invisible thing on our phone that you just tap something and it disappears, but you're never really seeing it. And so I think that money has become literally out of sight, out of mind. It's quite easy to not really know how or when you're spending. If your subscriptions are through Apple or like some of the service, they might not even come up on your bill as something that you can identify. Sometimes I have subscriptions and I'm trying to cancel them and I'm like, oh, it's my gym membership. I don't even know what they all are under like different names from what they are. so like in terms of just getting a handle on all those payments just as a bit of advice it is I think like 1499 a month so you're paying to find out how much you're paying every month but it is a really good app and I found it really helpful because I'm someone that can kind of lose sight of what I've signed up to or the other day I signed up to class pass again on a five pound trial where you get like unlimited or have many credits for a month didn't go to one class next month then got notification on my phone being like you've been charged 69 pounds I was like what I completely forgot that I signed up to that five pound free trial and it roll over. So I think that it's really, it's such an easy thing because everything

is just one click away. It's really not that hard to sign up to these things. And you're right, there is the other side of it. There are people that the only way to get by is through the necessity of breaking down payments into smaller, smaller monthly affordable payments because people don't have lump sums of cash. And in all the reading I was doing, most people do not have savings. And if they do, it's like a nominal amount. And most people aren't even buying luxury goods. they're sort of buying actually quite cheap goods which give us some false sense of pleasure or joy in quite a joyless world. So it's, I do think it's really hard that it falls on the consumer when we're in an environment which is so harsh and everyone really that I know is kind of

surviving rather than thriving. Even in the last three years, I've seen like a massive change in my own lifestyle and like Beth obviously you moved home, I moved home for a bit. Lots of my friends' purse strings are like much tighter. So I think that there's basically we're just prime for it. If something is shown to us as, you know, a sparkly easier way to make it through this, this life, then of course we're going to want to go and grab it. But I think we have to apply that idea that if it seems too good to be true, it probably is. I'm glad we landed on this as the final point to round off the conversation because yes, there are two kind of camps, I would say, with the buy now, pay later. There are the people, like you said, Beth, where breaking it

down into monthly payments is literally the main way to get by in this current climate. And I think that's so important to point out. But I think like you said, right at the top anoni, the fact that Klarna is almost buddy-budying with boo-hoo, pretty little thing, holidays, and kind of expanding into the field of materialism and excess consumption, I think we need to, we need to not be blind to that. And I think it is important to distinguish the two camps because we also have to question our consumption and we also have to question why are we being encouraged to make excess consumption more manageable, easier on the soul, not worry about the aftermath or the kind of issues surrounding it. It isn't, Klan is not our friend.

This isn't a good situation to be in. I think it is just important to be mindful of that as we're kind of, you know, engaging in true culture, which I don't know, I think it is just a way to get by in life, but I also think we need to be really careful. I think it is important not to just pretend that everything is okay. and we can just access every single thing we want to. I don't think we should. Thank you so much for listening this week and for all of your thoughts on this topic. Quick reminder that we're on Instagram and TikTok at Everything is Content pod with extra

behind the scenes content and ways for you to take part and suggest topics for upcoming episodes. If you enjoy Everything Is Content, please do leave us a rating and a lovely five-star review on your podcast player app. It helps others find us and memes we can hopefully keep making the show for a very, very long time. See you, as always, on Friday. Bye. Bye. Bye. My name is Ryan.

My name is Ryan. This is my best friend, Tony, and together we do the Tony and Ryan podcast and people right across Canada, they listen to our show. Now, Stacey and Marley, you guys are sisters. and pretty competitive. Can you tell us who listens more? Oh, it's definitely me. No. We will text each other through the day saying, hey, have you listened to the pod yet? So it's something that even we talk about as sisters, what was talked about on the pod. So when you're finished listening to this legendary podcast, check out us, Tony and Ryan.