Everything Is Content - Everything In Conversation: Does Casual Dating Really Exist?

Episode Date: July 16, 2025

Paging EIC fans, we've got a controversial new extra episode for you... this week we're debating whether casual relationships exist for men and women in 2025.While Carrie Bradshaw made casual dating look easy, breezy (cover girl), why are women all around us struggling to enjoy the romantic fruits of this arrangement? We read a brilliant Substack that posited many are confusing 'casual' with complete nonchalance and lack of care instead. We get into the weeds of it all and share our own experiences of dating in this episode, along with your insightful thoughts.You can read her piece here!If you like this or any other episode could you please, please, please (à la Sabrina Carpenter) gift us a review on your podcast player app. Also if you fancy joining in in these episodes, give us a follow on IG at @everythingiscontentpod <3 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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or topic with your help. This week we just got to thinking, do casual relationships really exist? Also before we dive in, please give us a follow on Instagram and TikTok at Everything is Content Pod to keep up with conversation topics and have your say. And do not forget to follow us on your podcast player app so you never miss an episode. And if you could be so bold, please could you give us a review

wherever you're listening to us as it truly is the lifeblood of the podcast. So Anoni brought us a very juicy sub-stack essay our way from Amanda Brown titled, Casual Isn't Real, The Rise of nonchalance in relationships. She started the piece by describing a recent situationship with a guy that seemed to be going really well. After two months of acting interested and invested he told her he didn't want a relationship. She suggested that they stop talking and he bizarrely seemed quite

reluctant even though he'd said he wasn't interested in long term and not even after 24 hours he breaks that and asks if they can just keep talking quote without expectations. Although she agreed looking back she asks why the fuck did she do this after that one moment completely ruined the fun and excitement of what they'd had and soured it. After a week they completely stopped talking altogether either way. In hindsight she realises her fear of being discarded stopped her from laying down a boundary that was important to her and saying no for something that really didn't work. She writes quote, dating, something that was designed to be fun and lighthearted, has morphed into something it was never supposed

to become. It's become a heavy, intimidating, daunting battleground. Somehow we blurred the line between casual and nonchalant. Men want you to act like you're dating and revel in the comfort of connection without the responsibility of clarity. It always seems to be one or the other, the suffocating seriousness of a quote real relationship or a carefree fling with no stakes at all. The in-between is what feels nearly impossible to find. The problem isn't casual, it's the lack of accountability that often hides behind it. Because technically you weren't official, so technically your feelings don't count. They're purely nonsensical. It's impossible to be casual in a relationship if what's expected is nonchalance and emotional detachment.

It is impossible to be casual in the truest sense of the word, open, low pressure, exploratory. But that's not what people mean when they say it now. I thought this essay was so fascinating and it had so many good nuggets and I'm desperate to know what you both thought of it. I have not been experiencing the dating pool. I haven't been swimming in it. I haven't been looking for a fish because I've just decided to opt out for a bit. However, I have many friends who are dating and obviously in the past I have done so and there is an epidemic of avoidant men and it's exactly what she talks about which is it's not casual like in the old sense of sort of what we used to call like an F buddy or like someone that was like very clear

parameters around what it was. It's just sex or like it's just this. There's like this whole new categorization which I guess is kind of a situation ship, but it's often men giving women the girlfriend experience, which is very confusing for the mind. And then absolutely equivocally saying that this is nothing. So you've got such a whiplash situation. I've been through it. I've got lots of friends who've been through it where they treat you with kindness, respect. They're buying you flowers. They're taking out for meals. They're introducing you to their friends, you might even meet their parents. If you bring up, you know, like, should we be exclusive? They run for the hills. And I don't know what's causing it. And I do think that it is like a specific

issue with men in their 30s. I do think that women are also becoming more avoidant. So I don't think it's just on the men, but it's definitely something that I've experienced. And I hear time and time again from the friends that didn't get into relationships in their 20s, the ones still left standing in their 30s, myself included, this seems to be the default thing that is out there and anything else that's more serious, that's more committed that actually goes somewhere seems to be very rare.

What's your experience with this kind of thing, Beth? As someone who has done or did do quite a lot of dating in my 20s with men in their 30s, I really feel like I experienced the full gamut of this, what it can look like, where it comes from, how to spot it a mile off. And now I am in my 30s, might have mentioned, and I'm now like, the toe is edging back towards the water on dating for me. This is a universal experience. I think it even goes beyond just, okay, they're treating me like they could fall in love with me, but nothing's lining up. I think there's also a bait and switch. I read this piece and I was like, I would

love this to just be beamed into the eyes of every woman under the age of 26, even though I know it's a canon event, it has to happen. Because it details, I think, when something's offered, but perhaps implicitly, or it hasn't been mentioned, but you're like, all the signs though I know it's a canon event it has to happen because it details I think when something's offered but perhaps implicitly or like it hasn't been mentioned but you're like all the signs are here I'm not going to overthink this this is going really well it'd be insane if this person just wanted something casual and then they do the bait and switch then they say do you know what but this is what I'm feeling sort of like the person in the piece at that point like your nervous system is in disarray you're like I don't know which way is up. And you do end up doing what the writer does, which is saying, yeah, all

right then. I guess we could just mess around or I guess we just have this thing, which doesn't really feel, it's not what I wanted, it's not what I asked for, but I guess it's here now. And then I think you end up in this really fraught situation with yourself. You stop trusting yourself. You are so unsatisfied. You feel weird and unsatisfied all the time because what you've got is weird and unsatisfying. You can't even tell your friends what's happening because they would quite rightly put you in a headlock and force you to go to jail. But you also can't stop accepting this thing that's like draining your self-esteem. I think it's quite a serious issue for something which is this stuff of like, oh girls, not

again. It's sort of like you go to the restaurant of love and you're ordering lobster because you know your worth. You're like, I'll I'll have that I want that and then halfway through the meal it's like actually you're gonna have this baked rat and then you eat the rat and you just can't work out why like why do they eat that baked rat when you get some level of clarity you're like am I well and then I think this is the piece that you need to read when you're like putting your knife and fork down full of rat I really really loved it, but it also gave me the absolute fear. That is my very well reasoned take. I would eat the baked rat even at 31. No, don't say that. Because it's exactly what Beth said. You're so lured in. You know how Uber

started off really cheap, so everyone was reliant on using it. So then when they hiked up their prices, you're like, well, I can't imagine my life without this really efficient taxi service, which is not anymore. So you keep using Uber, other services are available. It's like that. They lure you into this amazing thing that you think is happening. And then they change all the terms and conditions, but you're like, well, I guess I want this now. The amount of times that I've just agreed to go along with something. Yeah. I think the Uber one is quite a good one because it's like, well, I still want to get where I'm going and maybe it'll take four years, but I'll get there in the end. And

it's like, it's the sunk cost fallacy. It's like, put in this time. Did I say the right word? Yeah. Yeah. All right. I thought you were correcting me because I'd said like phallic or something. It's quite early in the morning. It's exactly that. It's like, well, I guess at least I'll be full on the rat. I guess there's some nutrients in it. And it's like, girls, there's not. It's like, well, I guess at least I'll be full on the rat. I guess there's some nutrients in it and it's like, girls, there's not. It's rat. I think the sunk cost phallic probably is the right term for all of this.

I don't know if you had this. I'm talking from like six or seven years ago, having also experienced this. So I'm just wondering, have we just been in a crisis and an epidemic of this horrendously communicated situationship sunk cost phallic for like over a decade at this point. But I remember thinking exactly like the writer said, you find yourself in these situations where you've been treated as if marriage is on the cards. And then the minute you just have a conversation where you bring up something like, oh, so, you know, do you wanna do something in two weeks? And then the other person looks at you across the table as if you've just said the most egregious, horrendous thing and slapped them across the face.

And then it all just spirals downhill. There would also be an element of therapy speak in the situations I was in. So somebody saying, you know, I'm really not in the right head space. I'm feeling quite anxious about this. I'm feeling as if the right head space. I'm feeling quite anxious about this. I'm feeling as if the expectation is really triggering my anxiety

and really putting a lot of mental health language, boundary speak, all of that kind of stuff on me. And then at that point, you feel like a dick because you're like, oh, well, I guess this person's saying they're in a really bad place. And then two or three weeks after you're like, wait, no, they've just flipped on me and made me feel horrendous and guilty for having a shred of expectation because of behaviours they've exhibited to

me, i.e. the girlfriend experience. And even a few years ago, a friend said the same thing. She went on a few dates with a psychologist and you know, not all psychologists, blah, blah, blah. And the psychologist was a guy. They'd been on 10 dates and then he basically did the bait and switch exactly like you said, but really use the language of boundaries, expectation, looking after himself, caring for himself at that point, when really, he'd basically made all of these future plans with her and then just completely switched in two weeks and made it seem like actually he was preserving himself by doing all of that. I just, it's so weird how common it is. I don't want to say I'm a philosopher on the subject,

could do it for mastermind, because this is honestly one of the conversations I have with all of my single girlfriends. And I think she says this a bit in the piece, but what it seems to be is that there is this really big men are from Venus, women are from Mars thing where men do not understand women whatsoever. So you mentioned that you potentially would like to know if they're having unprotected sex with someone else because that is just a good thing to know for your health and for your brain. That is your health as well. And they will freak out like you just asked them to marry them because I think men seem to think that women are incapable of a slight bit of romantic intimacy without meaning that they're suddenly going to get trapped in some way.

And it's like most women I speak to actually have no big desires to rush into anything, really want to get to know someone slowly, but actually would love to know just for their own calculations in their brain what this man is thinking. Because actually most women, if a guy says, no, I don't want to be exclusive, will be like, okay, well then I guess I'll go and date someone else at the same time. Or okay, you just make informed decisions based on that. But the other thing these men will try and do, and I love that I'm blaming all the men, but I haven't experienced it with women

because I haven't really dated women, but is they just also won't tell you what they think. So not only will they like give you the girlfriend experience, won't commit to exclusivity, sometimes they also won't admit whether or not they would be exclusive. So you're just kind of in the dark. So you're then acting on what you're intuiting.

Because we've always been told just trust, like believe how people act, not what they do. No, believe how people act, not what they say. And these men are acting in ways that really tells you that they're like falling in love with you. But then they say the opposite thing. And almost you're like they don't know because they're not acting right. Did any of that make sense? So then listen, I'm a bit hungover this morning. I will say the whole rigmarole of all of that is so exhausting on your nervous system, because you're having to reassure yourself all the time. And you know, there's a sense of I'm

being silly. I he's showing me this exactly like he said, and only and all of those kinds of doubts, those niggling feelings that come up when you're dating because you're invested in something and it's scary being vulnerable is scary and then the switch happens and what happens at that point you've almost had to reassure yourself and that kind of gut feeling of oh maybe something will go wrong you've quieten that so much that the drop is so extreme it is just like off a cliff and then you have to pick yourself up reassure yourself that you're not a piece of shit when somebody has just done something awful to you and made you feel horrendous. And that's just dating. So you have to do that over and over and over again, if you are interested in finding a partner.

I don't get how that is acceptable. And the point is, it's obviously not. Modern dating encourages such bad behaviour and the only genuine way to like fortify against it is having such a strong robust sense of self, which when you're in your 20s, that is still growing. Mine has grown quite nicely, but still there is a moment of like, oh, ouch. And I say this as someone who has been quite good or quite open to what I believe to be casual at times in my life. I think I am capable. And this is where the debate I think begins because it's like, well, you have to first define casual but I think by any other metric, this would be quite obviously

casual. So dating people who perhaps don't live full-time in the place that I live, people who are leaving the country, people who for whatever other reason have been able to express, this is where I'm at. And it's almost like spending time together with someone as friends who go on dates and it has got like an expiration date and everyone knows the situation from the very beginning, which I think is very key. And I've had like fleeting romantic encounters that have been great. They've been great when they've begun, they've been great in the interim and they're great now, like we'd still catch up for coffee. And I didn't think that was such a white whale, but when I talk to people, they're like, how have you done that? And I think it is,

you have those conversations early on. If there's any hint, one week, two weeks, that they are doing the flip-flop, you have to just flip-flop away immediately. I think if you date someone, casually or otherwise, who has in their repertoire of behavior, love bombing, casual cruelty, ghosting, severe avoidance, or even just weekend avoidance. That's the thing that makes it feel horrible. It's not the idea that, okay, all that's on offer here is quality time without a great big monogamous love somewhere down the line. I think you just have to be two people that are decent to one another and see the value of being decent to one another. You don't have to be in it for marriage and eternal love. And I think some men get confused by this. They believe, well, no one else is up for this. So if I want any of the trappings of love and romance, then I'm going to have to

either lie to them or to myself or sort of like freak myself out and do the classic self spook where they go, oh my God, I've sold them on this and now I can't deliver. Even though no one's really asked you to deliver anything that you're not ready for, I think it might be a bit of a white whale, sadly. So we had a message from Lisa, which echoes a lot of what you just said, Beth, where she said, it seems like traditional commitment, i.e. a relationship, is now seen as just as big of a deal as engagement and marriage traditionally were. It feels like it stemmed from dating out culture and having so many options, which in my experience, and for men I've dated,

isn't the reality. I've had someone tell me they think I'm the one and they're in love with me, completely sober, might I add, yet being in an actual relationship is a step too far, apparently. I'm not sure what this means for us as a society, but it seems to be a universal problem. And I do think it is down to dating apps. I do think it's down to this perceived idea

that there are like loads of people available. And then if you just swipe one more time, if you keep pushing the rock up the hill, you're going to like find your one true love rather than, I guess back in the day when people getting married, you were probably marrying someone that was quite local to you, maybe someone that you'd known for quite a long time. Maybe your pool of dating was like very, very small. And also this is not to say that actually a lot of those marriages were extremely unhappy. A lot of them included a lot of especially bad times for the women. But just in terms of like why we're so unable

to commit, especially I think our generation, because I do think the generations above us do think this is kind of weird. If you ever speak to anyone in their late 40s, they're kind of like, I don't really know what you're up to. They're all on their third marriages. But to go back to what you were saying, Beth, about the catch and release, they like catch you from the sea, you're the fish, and then they put you back. There is also unfortunately something quite addictive as the fish being caught. There's something that kind of almost makes you want to perform better because you're never ever getting into the deep, close intimacy. And I don't mean like sexually romantic. I mean the intimacy of really knowing someone, which is when you start to really relax. It's

when you like, not you have to wear makeup around them, but you're kind of trying to, you're showing, you're bearing like the more intimate parts of yourself. When someone keeps you on that very long leash, you're always in that sort of, I'm trying to impress you and be my best self version. And it's quite addictive to be kept at that distance because you're constantly thinking, when am I going to break through? So I do think it's also really hard to detach from that and say, no, even though you're so right, it's what we should do. It can feel quite fun. And I do wonder if that's part of it. They know that they kind of have you then when they don't fully let you in.

Can I also just say this took me a long time to learn that feeling is exactly it. That feeling is just your nervous system in disarray. That feeling is literally a primal sense of unsafety. So every time you're like, okay, I'm feeling this and it must be love. This is so compelling. I've got to give it more. I promise babe, it is just something firing within you. It's like the oldest trick in the book. Your body is just confused.

Your nervous system is just like hitting the skids. It's not real. Remember that, hold it close. To go back to Lisa's message as well. I think that is another universal experience. Someone coming on so strong and like dropping. I think that is another universal experience, someone coming on so strong and dropping. I think it's the people that want, they want the emotional rewards of big romantic gestures and feeling like they're in love. The feel of saying I love you is

wonderful. It's like, oh my God, I'm such a big grand romantic person, but they want all of that without having to do the labor of love. We've talked before, it's lovely labor, but it is labor. It's choosing, it's committing, it's rough with smooth. It's stolen, valid. They just want the feeling. They're like sensation seekers. I think the great lesson of my 20s was, do not believe these people and do whatever you can to stop finding it big and romantic and actually be like, God, you're a careless, chaotic tornado of a person. Actually, I find that quite unattractive. And finally, I'm on that point when I do find that unattractive, but for a while it was like the stuff of life. And I think every single woman I know who has been dating in their 20s has at least one of these stories. Not to such a degree, I went on a first date with someone, an actor who invited me to,

I've told you both his story. Actors are the worst for this, by the way. I tell you that. I've had like one good actor boyfriend and I went to like the screening of a film that he was in and directed and like that was the first day and then it was a great, we went for a drink afterwards. We went to like eat cannolis late night in London. It was a lovely day and at the end of the night he was like, this is crazy but I'm going on this weekend away with my friends and I'd love for you to come. I was like, well, no, I'm not going to do that because I have a job and also I've just met you. But I was very nice about it. But he was really swept up in it. And then the next day he was like,

yeah, I don't really know why I said that. It's probably not a good idea that you come. And I was like, well, I just, I said, one, I said no and two, yes. And I could already sense he was getting himself into this romantic narrative. And then eventually, like he spooked himself. He created this situation that was way too intense and then ran away from it. And it was completely his own doing. And I was like, that was fascinating to watch from a perspective where I feel like I'm a bit wiser. And I was like, oh my God, a lot of them really just have no idea what they're doing or why. It was absolutely baffling.

It's just, it's time and time again, like different details. A friend told me as of literally like a few weeks ago, that a guy she had met had invited him to fly out to where he lived because they'd met whilst on holiday and were just chatting intermittently over the weeks in between. So maybe like a two week break from having met and you know, hooked up on holiday, she flies out to see him. They spend a weekend together. He treats her, cooks for her, all of that kind of stuff. They agree to be casual and then tell me why he ghosts her as soon as she reaches London Heathrow. It's just, it's so absurd. It's so ridiculous. You can insert different names, locations, job profiles, and the truth of the story still prevails

for every single woman I've spoken to. Have you seen the trend, it's like on TikTok and Reels, of the guys being like, you're hitting a date the day before he goes to you, and they'll be like on a beach, and they'll be like giving them roses, and like kissing their face, and being like, I think the most beautiful woman

in the world, and I think maybe. And it's so true. I remember the first, I'd never really been ghosting because I actually had the opposite problem of this in my twenties, which I would just go on a date with someone and then go out with them for four years. But then when I went on my first, the one of the day, I told you guys this, I think after my breakup last year,

I went on this date with this guy and I actually really liked him. And he was so effusive on the date. And then I was like, oh, this is so nice. And it was really helping me because I was like really struggling with the breakup. And he was texting me, texting me, texting me, can't wait to see you, blah, blah, blah.

And then he just never messaged me again. So I messaged him and I was like, hi, do you still want to go on a date? And then he would take weeks to reply because I'd never been ghosted. I just kept following up. So I was like, did you still want to go on a date? And then eventually he replied being like, sorry, I've been really busy. And then I was just messaging and my friend was like, Nini, he's ghosting you, but you're being so persistent.

So I was so confused. I was like, he said we'll go on a date in a couple of months when he moves back to London. But I, it's because I couldn't deal with the wind flash. I was like, surely there would have been something on the date that would tell me that he didn't want to see me again. But he was literally like, I can't wait to see you again. It was just because I'd never gone through it. So Beth, when you keep referencing women in their twenties, unfortunately, I think I'm going to fall victim to this for a really long time because it didn't happen to me in my twenties. So I'm still like, my nervous system thinks it's having a party every time this

has happened. Not that it's happening right now, but. You're the ghost whisperer. You refused to be ghosted. You refused. I honestly was like, he can't be ghosting me. He literally laughed at me. I like, my friend had to be like really gently like, no, he's, he's, she's trying to get away. I'm surprised he blocked me. Let him go. Let him go and only. Just for a little palate cleanser, Robin message and said, dating more casually helped my confidence grow

and I worked out what I wanted. I went into things with no expectations, walked away if it sucked, laughed if it didn't. I think you have to be honest upfront and go into it with an open but relaxed mindset. When you don't seek something out obsessively, you tend to attract the best things. So I remember you just said Beth,

that it seems like casual is a bit of a white whale. And I definitely think numbers wise, in my experience from friends and myself, it definitely feels really difficult. But this made me really happy to hear that somebody is successfully enjoying casual relationships, even if the other person that she's on a date with can't give it back. Her mindset seems really good actually. I think Robin's message was the message I was like, yes, this is exactly it. This is the other side of it. Because to be good at casual dating or just like dating in general, it doesn't require that you have like total control over your emotions. It doesn't require

that you keep them from advancing or getting deeper. I think actually like shutting down your emotions to any degree will make you horrible to date and you'll get so little out of it that I don't know why people bother. And it sounds like she's just going like, there's an openness, that's where the light gets in. Let's see. I think to be good at dating just requires that you're kind of like, okay, these are my emotions. I'm going to take care of them. I'm going to connect to them. I'm going to be very aware of like the shifts. If I feel in danger, if I feel that little spark of like, oh, I'm really unsure. Then you take action rather than like, I think the tough bit is to make decisions based in reality, which you don't often want to do when you're dating. But you can also, as Robin did, you can make decisions based in reality. You can make them from a really

like self-loving place and you can have like a really fun and romantic time. I think the problem is always going to be other people, people that think powering down their feelings is in some way a superpower when actually it's just, it feels really modern. It feels really boring. You can be open to casual, you can be open to love and just be out exploring. And I think that is what casual has been for me. It's been like exploration. It's not even lack of duty and care to the other person because in some cases, if you want a casual relationship, you have to be really on it. Both of you have to be really good at communicating, really ready for when maybe someone catches stronger feelings, ready to talk

about it. And when you are in that position that Robin describes, when they switch up, if they switch up, you can metabolise those feelings well and be like, well, realistically, I could never be in a long-term, big, beautiful love with someone that would do me like that. So the loss is non-existent. The embarrassment's real, but the loss is non-existent. I mean, I'm not going to say too much on this, but you both know, I'm having a little bit of a romantic time at the moment, on paper, maybe it does look like those previous situations, but it just feels different because I'm different, it's well communicated. I'm very sure in myself, there's like an old Jenny Slate tweet, the writer and actress, and she's just brilliant,

that said, as the image of myself, I'm going to butcher this, as the image of myself becomes clear in my mind, I'm no longer afraid that someone will erase me by denying me love. And I feel like that so much at the moment. I'm like, there's really nothing here that could compromise how I feel about myself, compromise what I know to be true about myself and the world. And so I can kind of go in, I can take risks, I can be really open to stuff because I know if this goes away, I'm so well fed in terms of like connection and love from my friends in my life. If this goes away, it'll sting and then I'll be fine. It really does not to get too like woo woo, but it really does. It starts with you. And I just really love Robin's message for that. I love that. I love everything you just said that.

We also had a message from an anonymous person saying, I love the idea of casual dating, but if I like you enough to see you more than once, then I got emotions, lol. And I originally posted this sub stack on my Instagram story and I had a lot of messages actually from people saying like, I would love to date casually, but I find it really hard. And there's two things I have to say to that.

The first one is a bit silly, but it's true, which is if you do want to date casually, because you're trying to avoid getting into like a big romantic relationship and you feel that way and kind, you have to date multiple people. And I mean like having five different men that you're texting. You don't have to be like actively go on dates with them. You don't have to be sleeping with them all, but you have to have enough buffer between all of these men so that you don't spend one minute of your day wondering at what time one of them is going to text back because the other

one's already texted you and it fills in the time gaps. And then my more serious thing is I don't think anyone also has to date casually. I think that if you are like a monogamous penguin who or a lobster or whatever the monogamous animals are that love being in a partnership and you really value that. I think a lot of the essence of this piece is kind of about this too, which is it's okay to want to have a really beautiful, loving monogamous relationship where it isn't casual and it's kind of not casual from the beginning and you set out your intentions. And I think that maybe as people like bearing the brunt of this fake casual epidemic, maybe we also have to stand stronger and saying, actually, no, I don't want that rather than going along

with it being like, I do want a serious relationship because as Beth said, however many Beths ago, like we do kind of just go along with it and we're like, oh, this is quite nice, fine, I'll just, I'll eat the baked rat. And I think we have to start refusing the baked rats and say, no, I came here for lobster and I want lobster. Sometimes it feels like there's a bit of a scarcity mindset, which is so impossible not to get into because we can see the amount of beautiful women in our lives. And it feels like if you meet a guy and you're heterosexual or you're bi or whatever, and you meet a nice guy, it feels like a rarity compared to excess of beautiful, kind, intelligent, high achieving women all around. And I'm not saying

that's true. It definitely feels true. And it feels like an emotional truth, but because you feel that, and because lots of my friends have expressed feeling that, it makes going into dating harder because the power dynamics are so, so flipped. It doesn't feel equal at all. And I've spoken to friends who are still single, jumping into dating, taking huge gaps away from it. And they always say that to me.

And that's exactly how I felt years ago when I was doing it too. And I think when you enter in like that, it is just going to make everything feel so heightened because say somebody is treating you like shit. There's this sense of, oh, well, it's been months since I've really connected with somebody or it's been, you know, I really don't often see a guy that I fancy or connect with or whatever. So then that clinging, which I did during those times where somebody would pull away because I would feel that, you just find yourself doing it. It feels so hard to just cut the communication and just like turn around and turn your back on it, but that's exactly what you need to do. You're so right. But I guess what I pointed to is that

bit of the puzzle as well, I guess. I'm also very aware, like when I put on a dating profile that I'm looking, for example, on Hint, they have like short term, open to long. They have more precise language, it's like short term only, but a lot of people would choose the short term, open to long. When I put that on there, I'm aware that it's likely to mean something quite different to me than for all the people that I'm matching with that have maybe answered the same. Like it's such an exact language. And I guess that's on purpose to get us to match and to talk and to try and figure it out. But without a proper social contract to guide what that means and to guide the behaviours associated with that, casual can often mean careless to a lot of people and

it's sort of socially acceptable for it to mean that way. And then the only solution really is to get quite exact with the language and exact with what you want. And that's hard to do when you've just met someone. It's like you have to know what that language represents to you and not allow the word casual to open up this gulf of like, well, I guess I agree to this. I'm saying it like it's easy, but I think you do just have to get quite specific on what is baked right and what is not. And I, maybe this isn't connected, but I don't know if either of you saw on Twitter, a screenshot of a dating profile conversation went viral. I think it was a man and a woman who had made a date. They were both like, great, I'll see you there. One of the messages to be like, hey, I'm just going to be

a few minutes late. And then the reply was, oh, sorry, you didn't check in with me this morning. You didn't message to confirm and say you're really excited. So unfortunately, I'm not there, lol. We'll have to reschedule. And itchedule." It was a bit divisive, but most people agreed. That's ridiculous. Then in a follow-up, they were like, yeah, I can only date people that are so, so excited to see me. I know my worth and I won't accept less. I think that's the overcorrection where we're like, I'm not going to be taken for a fool. I'm not going to do casual. Instead, they reach for something that's way too overbearing, way too quickly. They're like, I know my worth. I need someone that checks in on the day of the day. And I was

like, fuck, that's an exhausting way to do, that's just as exhausting a way to date and behave with people you've just met as it is to be like, you know, I guess we could go on a date. Like there has to be a middle ground. I think we're all scrambling. I think we're at saturation point. And I think it's encouraging some quite bonkers behaviors. Because I think that was purely from this person had obviously been hurt before, had read all of those self-help things. It's like, girl, he has to be obsessed with you. Do not settle for less. And then they'd actually like cheat themselves out of like, what probably could have been a really nice date. And that is what this is making me think of. Like, we just don't know how to balance the scales at all.

Did you see, I think it was last year, no, maybe two years ago, a similar thing happened where a woman and a guy were conversing on Tinder. They were just chatting and then it got to the point of organizing a date and then the guy had suggested a bar and then the woman went off on him and she was like, you do realize that bar's in Brooklyn, which means that blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, commute for me. Do you realise how selfish that is? It's putting me out having to do that, blah blah blah blah. And it just sparked this whole discourse and it was exactly the same kind of thread and people pointing out, well he was just suggesting a date, I'm sure he wasn't trying to cheat you out of something or you know, assume that

you'd go back to his flat because you've just met. He probably has no idea where you live. But this overcorrection of setting boundaries and things like that is not perfect and And I feel like you're so right. The attempt to balance the scale has meant that people are being possibly a bit cruel and not giving each other the benefit, the doubt on dating apps either. And also in that situation, I've had that before and I've just said, sorry, that's actually really far from my house. Where do you live? Should we find someone like in the middle and we'll go there? Like you don't have to say, oh yes, that's where we're gonna go. And also on the short, open to long thing,

I actually have never, I've deleted all the apps again, she loves to do it. I never put the dating goals thing because I find it too embarrassing and too exposing. But short, open to long is kind of what I think dating is. But this is the thing that men don't seem to understand. I think every woman that I speak to is like, I wanna go on a date, I wanna get to know someone.

I want it to be like, I don't wanna be love bombed, I just wanna find out who you are, figure it out. Then maybe if it's been a few months, I'd like to know like that we're not dating anyone else. And then maybe in like a year we'll be like, do you know what? This is going somewhere. That's kind of how all my girlfriends view it. And so we ask questions along the way because we're, you know, figuring out what this is. But men seem to think that we want to go from zero to a hundred so quickly. So they cannot, I don't know if it's almost the green light theory, which is called the taxi light theory with men that we spoke about loads of times, which is men go on a date already kind of sure about where they're on their life, whether

or not they're ready to go girlfriend zone or casual pants. And so they like aren't open to this, what every woman I know, which is quite like a realistic timeline of just getting to know someone over a long amount of time, which means you need these questions and this information. And pretty much every guy on Hinge, actually a lot of them have long relationships open to short, which I think is funnier that way around because the short relationship open to long makes sense because that's what I think we're all looking for. We're looking for maybe this could be casual, but it could go somewhere. Do you know what I think it is? I think it comes down to certain people, I'm not going

to say men, because it is certain people, get really excited about the idea that they won't have to do any of the labor or effort part of dating and that casual dating will be this like zero effort experience, sex on tap, but like also she'll stroke your hair, but also nice moments. Don't need to follow up. You don't need to think about it. You don't need to be careful. And I think as annoying and shitty as that is to encounter, and we all will encounter it, it is them that I feel sorry for because it's such a piecemeal way to experience something which is like when it's good, it's the stuff of life and it doesn't have to be long-term monogamy, deep commitment. You don't have to stop seeing other people,

for example, you just have to communicate. And I think it's the best thing. It's great. And these people kind of just choosing like the hule of connection. Like they think that at the banquet, but like, honey, you are like choosing to offer people scraps and get scraps in return. And I think it's just a misunderstanding of what is fun about connection and what is fun about dating. And I think it just represents a sort of baked in fantasy of like, great, I'm going to get all the good stuff and you don't have to think about it. And it's like, that's not real, my love. That is a fantasy. Thank you so much for listening this week and for your incredible, insightful takes as ever. We adore being able to chat with you. As always, you can find us on Instagram and TikTok at Everything Is Content-Poured. And if you enjoyed this episode or literally any episode ever,

then please do leave us a rating and a lovely 5 star review on your podcast app. It means the world. See you on Friday. Bye!