Everything Is Content - Everything in Conversation: Is It Feminist To Disclose Cosmetic Surgery?

Episode Date: July 9, 2025

Happy Wednesday and even happier EIConversation day to you and everyone you know. This week we're getting into Kylie Jenner's boob job recipe and what this new spate of plastic surgery disclosures from celebs means for the rest of us. Should we be grateful they're telling us or suspicious that it's not quite the whole story? Could it help keep comparison at bay or simply make it easier for people to spend £££ and risk their health to emulate their favourite famous person? We attempt to get to the bottom of all of this and more with the help from all of you lovely listeners. We hope you enjoy, and as always please do follow + review the show on your podcast player app as it helps others to find the podcast :)O,R,B x Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm Beth. I'm Rachira. And I'm Anoni. And this is Everything in Conversation, the episode where we deep dive into a topic with your help. If you want to get involved in these Wednesday episodes, just follow us on Instagram and TikTok at Everything is Content Pod. You can also follow us on your podcast player app so you never miss an episode.

And while you're there, we would love, love, love if you leave us a nice review or a five-star rating. It is so helpful for us as a podcast and we love you for it. 445cc, moderate profile, half under the muscle, silicone, Garth Fisher, hope this helps, lol. If these words mean nothing to you, then congratulations, you're refreshingly offline. If these words mean nothing to you then congratulations, you're refreshingly offline. If you do know what I'm talking about however then sorry slash welcome to the party. It is of course Kylie Jenner's boob job recipe as commented by her underneath a fan's

TikTok earlier in the summer and what a recipe it was and what a handful of lively debates it sparked and now that we're back from our hiatus slash break, it's only right that we weighed in on this new trend of celebrity women being transparent or at least partly transparent about the cosmetic work that they've had done. We got so many messages from you all listening and people asking us to cover this.

Can't wait to get into those. But basically, I guess the crux of this is, is it as big of a deal as it's been made out to be with Kylie Jenner and now Khloe Kardashian talking more openly about what they've had done? Is Kylie Jenner a hun and a girl's girl or is there something sinister going on? I kind of want to ask you both for when this happened

with the Kylie Jenner boob job recipe, whether you had like a knee-jerk reaction of no big deal or, oh, this is gross, or even what a girl, love her, relatable. I remember finding it really strange, only in the sense that she was replying back to somebody's comments. And I always find it really strange when a celebs are in the comment section of somebody else's content. And it wasn't like, you know, in response to Kylie Jenner in response to something she's done. Rachel Leary, an influencer, a TikToker had posted this video just saying that she really wanted to know Kylie Jenner's boob surgeon, the kind of details around it. And then Kylie Jenner, lo and behold, replied. So that just

that side of it I found really bizarre. And then I found the response, the kind of cascading, wow, isn't that amazing? Aren't we in a new phase of feminism where everyone's being honest about things? Just so fucking depressing because we've been here before, choice feminism is back, and it just feels like time is eating itself a little bit. And it feels like any kind of popular progression

we've had in knowing that we can have, you know, like 5D conversations about feminism feels like they're getting rolled back a little bit on the internet and their kind of discourse is going back rather than forward sometimes. So that's how I feel. How do you feel? This first came to me through me just seeing pictures of my friends who have naturally ginormous jugs being like 36 doubly over the muscle surgeon, mom and dad or something. So I was like, what is going on? Like, why is everyone posting stuff like this?

And then I realized and had to like backtrack because I'm not actually on the TikTok. So initially I actually found it quite funny because it was making me laugh. And then the more I thought about it, I was like, what has changed that people feel so brazen? Because it was such a thing with Kylie Jenner to not admit having work done famously,

like did never admit it to having her lips done. I think Bella Hadid still maintains that she's never had any facial cosmetic surgery, even though there's images that strongly stress, you know, she's, oh no, she does say she's had a nose job. One. So there was always this thing about hiding it under the rug and there was always a lot of pushback about that.

And we've had a lot of comments about this and it's something I've thought about quite a lot as well. And people were kind of like, I think it was really important that celebrities are open and honest about what they've had a lot of comments about this and it's something I've thought about quite a lot as well. And people were kind of like, I think it was really important that celebrities are open and honest about what they've had done because then it doesn't create this false economy where people are comparing themselves to actually surgically enhanced bodies and faces.

But I think what's quite interesting and telling is why are the celebrities suddenly so comfortable to go, actually, I'm just gonna talk about it. It means the culture must have changed as Ritera has said, and that people just don't care anymore. And I think one of the faults with this is, I think on the one hand, it is good for people to be like, oh, okay, so they don't naturally look like that.

And there's people that I follow on Instagram, actually lots of women do this now where they're like, you're so naturally beautiful is the caption. And then they go the natural beauty and they'll show themselves, you know, post-op having had a nose job, going for their tweakments, whatever. So it's kind of poking fun at themselves.

But where I think that was good because the idea was that people would realize, oh, I can't ever attain this. We now are making it so that people actually do want to find ways to have surgery, even if they're just a lay person in public who doesn't have access to lots of money or fame or not the kind of demographic we would normally expect to be getting surgery. And I think the issue is we don't have as many

celebrities coming forward and really ringing the bell, don't know that's a phrase, being like, no, I'm not going to get my breasts done. I know they're a bit saggy. No, I'm not going to get my nose done. I know it's got a bit of a lump on it. I actually think it's really important. We've kind of lost that side of the feminist voice and actually some people that we maybe might have expected to be those voices are maybe starting to lean towards surgery. And so I think that's the problem. It feels quite imbalanced. It's very loud on the side of here's what I've had done and pretty quiet on the side of I'm actually actively choosing to push against this plastic awakening. What do you think, Beth? I think it's all of that and more. I think it's very much that the culture has shifted

and its lip service to being transparent, to sort of getting things right, to saying, yeah, I've had this done. And if it wasn't profitable to do this at this point in history, at this point in the culture, they wouldn't be doing this. It's very calculated, I think. And we got a message actually in RDMs from Vani who said, I find it another fake PR ploy to seem relatable and real, specifically from the Kardashians that definitely won't be doing their full list of everything they're doing or have had done. I really agree with that. I think this is under advisement. I think that there's been a big cultural shift towards what we want from celebrities, which is maybe that they appear relatable, but also kind of superhuman. I find the whole thing sinister. I really think that they appear relatable, but also kind of superhuman.

I find the whole thing sinister. I really think that there has been, I think that they are just moving with the times as they want to do in their kind of culture vulture way. It was kind of like adapt or die. And I think this is the latest adaptation for women like that. I wish I understood more about like the surgery of it all

and whether and how transparent they are being because that's the other accusation that they are picking and choosing. What is acceptable to say, hey, I had this done, but still feel relatable? Because I guess they're listing things which now sort of on the menu for all of us. Chris Jenner's reported, or maybe she's confirmed it, Deep Plain facelift, Chloe's list of things, which we put on our Instagram, were things that I kind of recognized weirdly. And she sort of sought to act like, well, look, these are things I've had done. It's nothing crazy. Whereas, well, it's the BBL of it all. None of these celebrities will say they've had a BBL. And that I think is very interesting. They're choosing the ones which we go, oh, right I know Sarah from works had that done, whereas the BBL, this very deadly procedure, which was absolutely

popularized by famous women, really, really dangerous. I can see, of course, why you wouldn't say, I had that as well. I had that dangerous thing that many women have died from. So it's not full transparency. I'm not super impressed by it. I feel like it's just, it's capitalizing on a shift in the culture and that's it basically. Yeah, I think you're completely right. And the point you made about picking and choosing surgeries is such a good and correct one because yeah, I don't know if I'm just horrendously surgery-pilled or I just have realistic eyes to see, but I just feel like these are very modest lists that we're seeing.

I just, I don't for a second believe that this is the full story. And also the fact that now Chloe's come out and done it as well. I just feel like there's such a thing with the Kardashians strategically where when one of them does something PR wise, it very often like trickles down across the family. And it's interesting that these figures have been in our lives publicly, we've consumed them for over a decade at this point and yeah exactly the timing is now that they're coming out and it also reminds me of Lizzo recently sharing that she's been using Azempik, even though people have been using her name and accusing her of it for a while now. We're still in that kind of secretive era of Azemempik use, but we're having a few

celebrities dipping their toe into public acknowledgement that what they're doing in their private lives and it's gone pretty well for her. I don't think that there's been any backlash and I think it's because the media has set her up and set up everyone with the amount of reporting on cosmetic works and tweetments in this kind of neutral way. That naughty shaming of, oh she got a facelift, doesn't she look botched? Or isn't it embarrassing that she got a facelift? I don't think that exists anymore. I think we are primed to just be interested,

fascinated and get our purses out. And recently, on a private level, on a personal level, I don't know why, seeing all of this happen has made me go the other way. I just feel really like, oh, I can just feel like everyone around me from the media, from, you know, tabloid journalism to plastic surgeons on TikTok, for fuck's sake, your plastic surgeon should not be on TikTok. It all feels like they're trying to literally get me to open up my purse strings and

make me feel bad about myself. And it's made me go right to the other side and feel like this is actually such a political issue. We as women will be affected financially for the rest of our lives if we're just throwing money at a stupid problem that all of these people are trying to convince us exist when they don't exist. That's so good. It's so good and so powerful what you just said. We had a message from Lydia where she wrote, great for easing body comparison woes, but could become a to-do list instead, which I think is exactly why I've always sat on this. And I wrote about it in Bad Influence and I've thought about it for ages, like is it better to disclose

or does it just encourage people to then decide that they wanna follow suit? And Kate said, being good looking is so expensive, ha ha. Which made me laugh and made me think, what is the genesis of this? Because there was a point when I think everyone started to recognize pretty privilege and we realized how unfair it was in the world

that people who are deemed as more attractive have better access to certain things, are treated better. That is the way that the world works. And instead of trying to dismantle the paradigms of beauty that exists within societies and cultures that mean that we treat people unfairly if they don't fit within certain parameters, which I think we try to do for a really small window of time,

we've now gone, oh, don't worry, you can actually just buy pretty privilege So now it's like wealth privilege in order to buy into this pretty privilege thing instead of dismantling the system We're going actually we're gonna uphold that system and we're gonna uphold it and make it even more exclusive So if you have access to money, if you're already beautiful, you can be even more beautiful And there's a lot floating around about this at the minute Which is kind of I do side eye a bit because all of the women are really beautiful, but I don't know if you've seen people making collages of actresses in like the 90s, early noughties,

and showing like how different their faces are, how they've all got different noses, different lips, they've got wrinkles, they've got different hairlines, and then kind of comparing to what Gia Tolentino called like the internet cyborgian face, which is plumper lips, very narrow nose, eyes which are kind of pulled up high, high cheekbones, this kind of face, Monica Bellucci, Bella Hadid, this one face that everyone finds attractive. And it's funny because obviously all of those women that they're showing for the 90s and noughties were the beauty standard, but it also is a point that the beauty standard is no longer a slight variation on the same face. It very much is this one face and you can buy that at a price. And I think this is what is creating

this bottleneck effect where people are starting to feel really suffocated and this need to achieve that because it's like any point of difference is now actually a flaw and for a price you can fix that. And I'm feeling the impact of that. I definitely feel, I go through phases of feeling way more comfortable in myself. And then the more I see the surgery, like I've spoken to you girls about this privately, but I think Lily Allen's boob job looks amazing, but it's made me like really want a boob job in a way that I haven't before. So I do think there is a problem with if it's that ubiquitous, you either go the way of Ritera, which is a much more honorable way. And I shall be trying to think like that instead. Or you're like, oh, maybe I should join in. Maybe this will be the thing that

fixes me. Also, just a disclaimer, next week I could fully flip, reverse my opinion on this. So I'm not honorable at all. This is how I feel this one week. But it's like we are also acted on by this forever. And so are these women. And it reminded me, Megan Nolan wrote an excellent piece quite a few years ago about, I forget what it was called, I forget where she wrote it, but it was basically about how no, not everyone is beautiful and we have prized beauty to the extent that we've confused it with morality and it's, if you live in the world as we all are forced to, you do see the rewards for being

beautiful and so that race to the top has created this sort of Frankensteinian effort to win beauty, to find the features. And often they're cyclical, they're kind of the features of the moment that say, no, I'm beautiful, I'm in the club, I want to receive the rewards. And it's such a scramble. And of course, it's mostly women. It's not just women. I mean, there's been a lot of discussion lately about Drake's reported, I don't know what it's called, ab job. Ab etching. Ab etching. Unsubstantiated, I think, but the pictures don't lie. I know we're all

acts on it, but it is women. We talked in last week's main episode about Jameena Jamil, who is, she's a very beautiful woman who also, I think she uses that pretty privilege to discuss these things, but then she gets loads of shit for it. It is basically like, be beautiful, but don't discuss it, be beautiful, but don't be ungrateful for it, don't expose things. I mean, it's such a bind. Far be it for me to ever feel sorry for a Kardashian. I don't have it in me, but I do think Kylie Jenner is such an interesting case study in mass exposure to that early on, to the point where these speculations have been flying since she was a teenager and now she's talking about it as like a,

I don't know how old she is, mid-20s, late-20s, mother of two. It feels, it's so defining for her. I mean, she's got a beauty empire as well. It's like, I guess it all does tie together, but it feels so defining to her. It's beauty. That's the thing that makes her real in the world, makes her relevant, makes her someone that we turn to and hand over our money to. It is beauty. So it's kind of like, it is her job to continue to look good. It's not, or at least it shouldn't be our job on the ground, on a civilian level, to mimic that. But the way that everything has gone, the beauty standards are now absolutely twisted, distorted, unreal. It was months and months ago I was talking about a film called Blood Simple. It was Frances McDormand's first ever

film and she is, I've never seen a more beautiful face. And I was thinking, yeah, I don't see, further to your point Noni, I do not see that face anymore. Interesting faces are, they're just so thin on the ground. Interesting beauty. I saw a video of Bella Ramsey, someone doing like looks maxing on Bella Ramsey where they digitally alter their face to fit the perfect ratio, something like that. And I've never felt, and like no one in the comments was calling out, I was like, I have slipped through the mirror

and I am in hell. We are so attached now to this idea of perfection and beauty that this like young actor was just getting absolutely distorted in front of my eyes. I was like, this is quite a normal thing. I think that is the distillation of all of this. We've cooked our brains to think we must look like this. We must make other people look like this. This is the ideal. Life will improve. I'm beautiful. With Bella Ramsay specifically, I see so much online hate and people actually being affronted

that they're not conforming to being beautiful in the way that people want them to. And it's such a good point, that thing that you said from Megan Nolan, like not everyone is beautiful. And I wish that we were allowed to feel that way, because I certainly don't feel that way. I actually feel like I'm doing the public a disservice if I leave the house not looking attractive in some form or way. Sometimes it's for me, but there's certainly a deep rooted belief that it's going to be like an insult to the world if I'm not putting my best foot forward. And that's a really quiet voice now, but it's so insidious, it's so deep. And I think it does come down to the very silly thing,

which me and my sister were talking about like with my mom and stuff, which is with my nieces, not to always just say to them, you look so pretty, I love your dress and da da da, because then that becomes the thing that you have to be, you have to be pretty. And that isn't actually something that most of us prior to plastic surgery could really control. And everyone's going to find someone attractive, but this perceived idea of beauty, the thing that we must all attain to quote, you know, like the cover of Florence Givens, but women don't owe you pretty, but boy, do we believe that we do. And to go back to what Ritira said, it's such a slippery slope where we're genuinely, this is all we're focusing on,

the amount of energy that goes into this, but we're so primed for it, we're so trained for it, that it's like, of course, this is the final frontier where it's like, actually a bit like the conversation around Azempic where thinness has been the prize forever. And everyone said, if you could just take a magic pearl and be thinness has been the prize forever. And everyone said, if you could just take a magic pill and be thin, and now it's arrived and people are doing it. Plastic surgery is the same thing. Perhaps it is in this world of a Zempik

that the plastic surgery conversation is also coming hand in hand. It's like, this is how you can get so beautiful, but it has to be a collective thing. And this is where it's so hard. When you do have these big celebrity voices going, I'm doing it and I'm having a great time. It's very hard to then go me as an individual who is less privileged in other ways doesn't

always want also want to buy a bit of that privilege pie. That's why it's like it's great they're being honest but it'd be great if we had more celebrities standing up and going actually I'm I'm not doing any of it and I'm gonna let myself be who I am for the younger women because I do think it's hard when there aren't any of those voices. At one point, I think I was really desperate for celebrities to be honest about what they're what they're up to. But I don't feel particularly satiated. I just feel like instead it feels like the conversation has just gone slightly to the left. And now all we're doing is just talking about it in a new way.

I have two things I wanted to bring up. One thing was talking about how almost like the loss of diverse faces. Polyester podcast made a really good point and it made me literally go into the data and the research to look at this further. They were talking about how I think because of how much media we are fed where people have had work done, so whether that's TikToks, whether it's actors, actresses, music videos, whoever, the kind of media we consume and the media diet that we have, understandably, a lot of the people in the public eye

have had work done because that is a huge trend. But when you actually look at the data behind it, it is something insane, like 0.04% of people in the UK have had cosmetic work done. And I think this every time, I think this when I went to Primavera and I was just looking at all the kind of faces around me at a festival,

looking at my friends, just kind of reminding myself to touch concrete because there's no grass at the Primavera festival, that when I'm super online I get myself into this horrendous rabbit hole of seeing myself like those black lines dotted around my face in the before and after and I've spoken about it before. But if I really make an effort to, I guess, live my life, live joyously, push as much of my phone away as possible, live an offline life as much as I can, that kind of quiets a little bit more. And I think it really, I think for me anyway, I can't say this for everyone, but I think

there really is a huge connection between the amount of media that convinces us, everyone's getting this done, here's the new surgery that every single person of a certain age is doing, this is the new trend. And even newspapers are horrendous for it at the minute. The amount of reporting on Kris Jenner's face is out of control. It makes me feel like every single woman above 50, maybe even 35, is getting this facelift done. That is just not true. I bet it's three people. I bet it's somewhere between three and 13 people because it's so exclusive. But it feels like 30,000 at this point. And the other thing I was going to say is about boobs. I find it really interesting just the concept of big fake boobs being back,

because boobs have always been super political. And I feel like for a bit, because skinny was ushered in and we were seeing these tiny bodies, boobs were kind of irrelevant. Fashion doesn't feel like it really wants to concentrate on boobs. It's been very annoying, I think, historically, that fashion just kind of wants to ignore people with breasts. Whereas I think now it's this weird ushering in of tiny, tiny bodies and then these giant boobs. And it really reminds me of like the kind of Pamela

Anderson era of the nineties slash noughties. I feel like rather than going back and doing something slightly different with body modification, we've just gone straight back to the 90s and not only are we having a zempic bodies, we're having a zempic bodies that have been modified in these almost like brat dolls, I don't know, Sims way like increase spectrum of boobs to like massive corner on the right, increase the kind of bar for bums. And the actual, I don't know,

the actual trend of bodies is just so unrealistic. It's not even slightly, it's not under the veil of, oh, you know, this is co-opting a body that is very common among black women of a certain size. It literally is, nobody could have this body unless you literally go under the knife and you have multiple surgeries, not even one. Cause I think, I don't know if Kylie said this or not,

but it's alleged that she said a few. So the point we're getting ourselves to is not even anywhere close to being something that is available, as you said, with faces to anyone, unless they have tens of thousands of pounds few. So the point we're getting ourselves to is not even anywhere close to being something that is available as you said with faces to anyone unless they have tens of thousands of pounds to throw away at changing their bodies, adapting like a Barbie doll, going under iOS updates constantly for the rest of their life. Oh, and sorry, the final thing. I read a piece in The Guardian called A Marker of Luxury and Arrogance, Why Gravity Defying Boobs Are Back and What They

Say About the State of the World. And there was just this one paragraph that helped contextualize boobs a little bit for me, where the writer says, "'Decades when big breasts are in fashion "'seem to coincide with times of regression for women. "'Think about it. "'The 1920s flat-chested flapper dresses and emancipation. "'The 1950s Jane Mansfield and women being pushed away

"'from the workplace and back into their home. "'The 1970s lean torsos into t-shirts and the women's liberation movement. I just, I found that so fascinating. Speaking of big, big boobs, always think of Katie Price, formerly known as Jordan, glamour model, who has been getting plastic surgery since probably before Kylie Jenner was born and has always been super open and up front about that. And that's obviously a character thing and an industry thing. It's also, you know, Katie Price's career was almost predicated on that outspokenness and her body as this site of alteration of, I'm going to make my breasts extremely big. And it was like, well,

then I'm going to watch. And that was lucrative for her. These kind of very large augmented breasts were part of her character profile, her sort of celebrity image in a way that obviously for Kylie Jenner, it hasn't been like that. It was very different. And what followed like her glam modeling careers, years and years of drastically changing her face and her body and talking about it and saying, you know, she will go on a podcast. I think most recently it was Katherine Ryan, just and say, this is what I got done. This is what it's called. This is what it costs. This is where I got it. This is where in the world I got it. This is how I feel about it. This is how it felt. Painful. I regret it. I don't. I'm going to get another one. This was botched.

This was awful." I think it's interesting that in this sort of feminist gold rush to be like, yes, Kylie Jenner feminist for sharing boob job recipe. You'd never have that conversation about what Katie Price has done, though she is being, I think, a lot more forthcoming and actually probably does better for her female audience as a result because it's very unfiltered versus that comment, it's quite sweet, it's quite twee. What is missing from these disclosures is any sort of context of, well, one, how much it cost, the recovery time. It's just any context, any background of why she did this. Katie Price will offer that. And I think that is maybe why I'm a little bit like, okay, and what? We already knew you'd had this done because we've got eyes.

This has offered nothing besides kind of furnishing your own image with this like, hey girl, I got you. I'm in the TikTok comments with you. I'm in the trenches. I think it's really interesting that someone like Katie Price, in this scenario, I'm like, she's far more for the people for everything that she's said and done than I think these really rich reality stars who

are only now deciding to change it. I've really struggled to find, I think, messages where people were maybe more favorable to what these women are doing. We did get one from Alice who said of celebrities' transparency, I like it personally. We've been asking for transparency all along. I do worry that surgery We've been asking for transparency all along. I do worry that surgery slash tweakments are becoming ubiquitous, and I'm really disappointed in myself for wavering on my decision to age completely naturally.

But I'm more influenced by friends telling me they've had Botox than a celebrity who's operating on a different plane. The same way that I'm never body conscious from runway models, but an ordinary nine to fiveer like me showing a body transformation on Instagram makes me feel rough in comparison. And maybe it's just that blurred line on social media. Like everyone sort

of feels like your friend and it's very hard to delineate. Like that's my mate, that's someone in the same tax bracket as me versus that's the celebrity. And I think that's probably intentional now that they are trying to be more of the people. You're kind of like, who am I meant to be trying to live like? It's very confusing. But for the most part, people I think aligned with us in RDMs that there's something off about this. Yes to transparency, no to giving these women props. They're in position to power. I hate to say like women owe us this, this and this, but I do think if you're in a position of great influence, it is your responsibility to say the thing and receive no acclaim for it.

I feel like we've got ourselves into a bit of a eating our own tail because of gatekeeping culture and how important there was that trend of just saying, you know, real girls, girls, girls don't gatekeep X thing. Here's what I do for this, this, this, this, this. And I think because of that, it's just, it's equated to anything that you share online as being equal information, whether that's a anything that you share online as being equal information, whether that's a restaurant that you keep posting on your Instagram story or the surgeon that you used for your breast augmentation.

And they're just not the same thing. And yeah, you're right. This person is not your best friend. They're just not because they shared their surgeon. So we had a message from Erica, which I thought was really interesting, which said their denial sort of made the concept of plastic surgery seem uncool back in the mid 2010s when Everyone first speculated it almost seemed taboo which is of course problematic because it did shun the choices of many women to adapt their bodies To fit social norms which pretty much all of us have fallen under the pressure to do

So at some point if not all points in our lives However, it meant that most people didn't have surgery like this and there was no pressure to spend vast sums of money on potentially dangerous procedures Nowadays, I do feel like choice feminism is possibly more dangerous. It's sort of giving this what I've had done, anyone can do it. In fact, everyone should do it and you have no excuse for your imperfections because fixing them is easy and we told you how." And they go on to say, this is not Ray Giles, Giles Coded, as you just kind of pointed out about that rhetoric. But what this also made me think, and especially on the Katie Price thing, and I did listen to that episode with Catherine Ryan, and I thought it was absolutely fascinating and

the things that woman has gone through, my God. But this is also such a class issue. We spoke about this when we spoke about teeth, but plastic surgery in the 90s, early noughties was seen as something that was done by more working classes, the wrong thing, but kind of like, if you even look at the kind of reality shows at the time, on TOWIE, a lot of the women on that show would have had plastic surgery, whereas on Made in Chelsea, it was like no one would have had anything done. And that's really flipped more recently, where I think we spoke about this with teeth, where like really big white veneers were kind of seen as one thing, whereas having natural more characterful inverted commas teeth was like the

Indie Sleaze, natural, that was kind of a thing. Yeah, it's like a cultural divide between certain groups doing certain things. And so that meant that to have plastic surgery signaled something, it was like a fashion choice almost, it wasn't high fashion to have plastic surgery. Whereas now it's like people across kind of all spectrums of style, fashion, industry, plastic surgery is touching every single corner, which is also quite interesting because I guess there's maybe even more pressure because it doesn't just signify one thing. It's kind of bled out into every arena and now shows like Made in Chelsea, most of the cast have work done.

I know what you mean. It's almost like I feel like at one point, tattoos and plastic surgery were like the worst thing your children could ever do. And it felt like a moral issue. It felt like an indictment on your character. If you were going to get plastic surgery, you were vain, you're obsessed with yourself, you were just foolish to spend the money. And we've had a massive cultural overhaul where it's almost the opposite. It's almost like you are bizarre, you are strange, you are not being honest with yourself if you don't have some hangups that you would pay somebody to quote unquote fix.

And it's interesting how we've got here because it's not just a slight diversion, it's a completely different place that we've ended up. And yeah, I think it is just a slow trickle effect of seeing so many people doing it, the very slow kind of arrival at honesty around it. And then for that as well, just a media that props up all of our interests and talks about it in a very neutral way, rather than judging or shaming those people,

just putting the links to surgeons that you can go after you get to the bottom of the piece to get it yourself. It feels like to be judgmental about surgery in 2025, either you're a dick because you judge people's choices or you're just very regressive. And it's interesting that now I feel like culturally, we might shame people for having a judgmental view on plastic surgery. Not to say that's right or wrong, but that's quite interesting as well.

That's, you've just hit the nail on it. It's exactly that. As people used to think it was vain, self-interested. You probably weren't very clever if you're getting work done because you were so invested in spending time on your looks. And so there was a real judgmental air to people getting stuff done and it was almost like you were less than. You had nothing to focus on if you were bothering getting platinum blonde hair on your boobs done. And it's so interesting now to see how that shifted because exactly someone like Katie Price, people weren't seeing her as aspirational. People love her, she's like a national treasure, but people

were also like, well, she's not, you know, she's not the brightest spark. So obviously she has to get her tits done. Like people were so judgmental and cruel about her. It's fascinating to watch how we've managed to reframe it and not a very long amount of time. And the people laughing all the way to the bank, like the only people not harmed by this is the Garth Fischer's of the world, who I'm sure is having his DMs knocked through by people being like, well, I've got the recipe, I want this done by you. And it's like, for everyone else, all the rest of us, there's some sort of backlash, there's some sort of like, murk and difficulty, but the surgeons, it's, they're laughing all the way to the bank on this one.

I just find the whole thing absolutely fascinating. I think all of that is correct. There was this poster child for plastic surgery, perhaps because of what plastic surgery could be the limitations when Katie Price was first on the scene, which is probably about 20 years ago, maybe a little bit more because she was a teenager, versus what's possible now. And in an attention economy, it's like, okay, big tits will still get you attention, but not maybe in the same way. So what will I do? Okay, I'm gonna be really open about it. I'm gonna be really relaxed about it. I'm gonna surprise people by saying, here's my surgeon, no big deal.

It all functions to add exposure, maintain relevancy. And I'm very proud of everyone at RDM. So it's like, you know, I'm not buying it. I'm not getting sucked in. I'm not getting swindled by this. I'm either gonna feel neutral about this or I'm going to side diet. And I really like that.

What you've made me realize is at the time before I think there was a premium on natural beauty and people really valued it and people were like it's so much more interesting and important if you're beautiful and it's all from you. But then surgery caught up with that and made it so that you could buy this premium natural beauty where actually is kind of hard to tell. You might see it sometimes I do this you see an actor and you and you think, what is she? She looks great. And you'll be looking at their face and then something will pop up and it'll be a side by side and you're thinking, oh my God. And then there's the long laundry list of things that people are accusing them of having had done. So I think that's the difference. Surgery has come so far that there is plausible deniability

to having it done, which we carried on for ages, but now everyone's doing it with the plausible deniability. And because everyone's doing it with the plausible deniability. And because everyone's doing it, they're like, fine. Yeah, I have had my tits done. And then, you know, add 50 other things I'm not gonna mention. Thank you so much for listening. And for all of your excellent opinions and takes,

we love being in conversation with you all. Remember to give us a follow on Instagram and TikTok at Everything Is Content Pod and also your podcast player app. We'll see you as always on Friday. Bye. Bye. Bye.