Everything Is Content - Everything In Conversation: Is Veganism Dead?

Episode Date: December 10, 2025

Happy Wednesday EICarnivores* (consumers of meaty content, that is)This week we're asking: where are all the vegans? In this article for Dazed Laura Pitcher investigates the apparent decline in plant-based restaurants, food options, and people who openly identify as vegans, and asks whether this is related to a shift away from wokeness and empathy and towards conservatism and self-interest. Thank you so much for all of your amazing takes, we genuinely love hearing from all of you every week. If we can ask a final small(ish) favour, recommending us to a friend, leaving us a 5 star rating or writing a short review wherever you're reading this massively helps us to keep making the show. Lots of love O, R, B @ EIC xoxo ------------BBC - The UK Covid InquiryThe Guardian - How protein became the food industry's biggest crazeThe Week - Ozempic menus Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm Beth. I'm Ruchera and I'm Anoni. And this is Everything in Conversation. This is our midweek episode designed to drastically improve your Wednesday and get you through to the Friday Main. Remember, if you want to take part in these extra episodes, just follow us on Instagram at Everything is Content Pod. That is where we decide on our topics and ask for your opinions. Where are all the vegans? That is the question we're asking this week.

after a dazed article by Laura Pitcher investigated the apparent decline in plant-based restaurants and people who openly identify as vegans. In the piece, she looks at these changes, as well as the idea that this all could be related to a shift away from wokeness and empathy and towards conservatism, with a link to gender, acknowledging the stereotype that, quote, real men eat meat while plant-based men are weak soy boys. The piece also touches on the cost of vegan alternatives, the milks, cheeses, and imitation meat options often being hard to find and more expensive, as well as more widespread conversations around ultra-processed foods, which are according to Simprove and something called the Nova classification. Foods that contain ingredients

that have gone through several industrial processes have additives or amultifiers to improve taste or appearance, which can be true of the vegan alternatives to meat or fish, as well as packaged snacks, mass-produced bread and cakes and ready meals and instant soups. So for some people, cutting UPFs out of a vegan diet means that they feel suddenly quite restricted and do return to eating animal products. So we asked all of you what you thought of this piece and also the general idea that veganism is less popular and vegans are vanishing

and we got so many responses so thank you for that. It is impossible to read them all out or we would be here for nine hours but just so you all know we do read every single one of them and it really informs our chat so thank you. I wanted to read this message we got from Bethany who said quote, 10 year vegan

here, it was so exciting for the first five issues that I was vegan. I saw vegan sections expanding massively. It becoming a known term and restaurants bringing out vegan menus. I really started to feel pretty smart halfway through, thinking it would just go up and up. I have noticed a massive decline in enthusiasm since COVID. It feels stagnant, which is a shame, but I don't think it's declining significantly. Some things seem very permanent, like the general switch to plant milks.

Hopefully, the pendulum will swing back soon. But I think things are just really polarised now in so many ways, including identifying as a vegan, versus people identifying as carnivore, conveniently forgetting that we are literally omnivores. What did you both think, kind of of that message which sets a really good tone for this conversation? Is this a bump in the road? Or are we just kind of seeing the end of the 2014 eager veganism before our very eyes? The interesting thing is, when I saw this piece, I was like, oh my God, somebody's written this because I've been thinking this for ages, but subconsciously.

And weirdly last week, I said to my partner, John thing is so weird that so many vegans we know are not vegan anymore. And he was like, yeah, it is interesting, isn't it? I know so many people and together we were just kind of trying to hash out why and we never got to any kind of reason. So this piece was amazing because it feels like one of those present questions I've just been like randomly kind of considering now and again but not really weighing it up in any way. So it felt amazing to have somebody suggest and answer for it. I do think this is a thing. I think this is really legitimate. I think influencers I've seen as well who I knew to be vegan

have just kind of changed their eating habits and it's so fascinating. The timing of it that it seems to be almost like an untrending of that trend. And not that veganism is a trend, but it feels like there was a real moment around it when it became very present in pop culture, very present as internet culture. Lots of gym bunnies were vegan and proving that you can build a really healthy physique,

very gym physique whilst also being vegan. And those same people don't seem to do that anymore, although they still go to the gym. They just consume animal products. I also thought Laura's bit in the piece where she brings up stats about the UK specifically was really helpful. She said in 2023, the number of people identifying as vegan has dropped by 29% in Europe and 15% in the UK. So it really is a thing. That is, you know, that's a very considerable

number. I am so excited to hash this out and to work out why. And I'm so glad that we had so many messages from people who are vegan. Because although I've tried it mostly because of the pop culture elements of it a few years ago, not for any good reasons, which is shame on me. I think it's really good to hear from people who've committed for years of their life and to see what they're thinking about this. I went in the height of it. I decided to go vegan for about six months and really struggled with it. And I think we've spoken about this before just because of the control, they're putting too many parameters around food. So I kind of loosen that up and thought, no. Ambiently, I've been really noticing that people aren't vegan anymore. Just online, like you

said, Victoria, people I follow. I suddenly see a stake on their story. And I'm like, I swear the whole thing was they were vegan. Antidotally, I have friends who have been vegan since they were, sorry, vegetarian and or vegan since they're children and then just slowly but surely started eating chicken and now they're having full roast dinners. I don't know. That's kind of interesting to me because they weren't the cohort along with me and you who I guess got swept up in the fad of it all, the sort of vegan you maybe tried. They're people that from a really, really young age had stuck their flag in the ground

and said no, I don't want to eat animals and they've changed their mind. I think it's kind of reminding me of the conversation that we have been having ongoing about this kind of rise in choice feminism. Because secretly, I was quite enjoying the reduction of pressure around making good choices around food when it comes to being extremely ethical with your food choices because it meant that I then didn't have to do the hard thing of cutting out foods that I liked. So I quietly and silently slipped into the night as veganism kind of fell off the menu. And it's the same of choice feminism. Choice feminism comes back. I know it's bad, but it does mean that if I want to get a lip flip, I can.

That's kind of where I was feeling about it. But I actually do eat still. I have this little thing where if I'm in the supermarket and I see that this isn't meat sausages or that this isn't meat bacon or there is like a beyond meat burger on the menu. I actually do get it quite often just because I'm like, oh, it's good to not always get the meat option. I found it really actually devastating. I didn't realize how much restaurants were closing down that I didn't know that M&S

have got rid of their plant baseline. I didn't know that Baganam got rid of their vegan baguazu. And that to me is really, really sad because I understand that veganism is, actually, I think, quite a difficult lifestyle for a lot of people. And I think especially in the cost of living crisis, it's probably even more difficult. If you look at like the cheaper end of food to sustain yourself, it's much easier doing that on something that isn't restricted by metrics where a lot of things might include meat or dairy or whatever based products. So I understand there's lots of like valuable and fair enough reasons why veganism might be diminishing. But it's so

sad that it proves that you really have to kind of like vote with your, that these things just do die out and it's not like there's kind of big ethical push behind it. It's just like, oh, okay, people aren't buying it. I guess we'll just take that off the menu. Like, why does Wagamama need to get rid of his vegan catsuit? I can't be selling that badly. And it is great press for these restaurants because vegan food and vegan restaurants are fewer and further between.

And I follow quite a few vegans who are content creators and they do food and restaurant stuff and they will always spotlight these restaurants and it will make you want to go to them as well as lending like a lot of goodwill. It just seems like a bit for an own goal and a little bit like it exposes the reality of like, yeah, how capital moves and how these brands and how these companies work. But on to like the fad stuff, so we had a few people in RTMs point out that if you were a person who did this as a fad, yeah, you would drop it. But actually, veganism as a way of life, those vegans are enduring. So we had a message from Dina who said, I'm still vegan.

Eight years going strong. I truly believe that anyone who does it for the right reasons doesn't go back. Morally, I just couldn't. And lots of people echoed that sentiment. But to maybe give a slightly optimistic turn, I, most people that I know who are still omnivores do eat less meat. than before. And I think the statistics, especially in the UK and across Europe, do point to people are buying and consuming less meat on the whole. I think most people are just maybe slightly more fluid now. And that includes me. So I move back home. My dad's a vegetarian. He's kind of like a later in life vegetarian, fantastic. So like either he will cook or I will cook. And either way, we'll be cooking vegetarian stuff. I have never eaten less meat. And I don't think that's changing.

So I think on the side of maybe the label is less, maybe there's fewer people who wear that label. But I do think attitudes to meat are changing and like animal agriculture. And it just seemed like a massive own goal to then make it more difficult for people to have, you know, a treat meal that doesn't involve me or go out to a nice restaurant and not have to be like, well, I'm here. I should have a steak. I just, the whole thing is a little bit frustrating. And I'm not even vegan. I can imagine how annoying it is if this is literally preventing you from going out, making it hard of you to have like a meal with your friends, a nice meal at home. Because the point is, as people get a little bit wary of these UPFs, yeah, ultra-processed, yeah, UPFs. They are kind of stuck with like

what do you cook unless you have, unless you're really, really adept at cooking delicious vegan food that will satisfy you and hit all your like nutritional goals, it's so much easier to just be like, fuck sake, I'll just bung a bit of chicken in that or I will just have, I will go back to eating this, this and this. And I do think, I think the whole thing is quite frustrating. And it feels like a cyclical thing because it reminds me of the fact that, you know, everyone's talking about how cinemas are down, people aren't going to the cinemas. But so many films that have such a short window of being out in the cinema before they go into Netflix, for example. And then it just is like, well, unless you are really, really committed to seeing a

film within the first week of seeing it, you probably won't see it. Then the box office numbers will be really shit. Then people will say that film is a flop. And really it just feels like nobody is willing to invest the time to give something a good run anymore, understandably, because the money just isn't there in those creative arts. So it just feels like if M&S is removing its vegan mind, then it's really not giving people a chance to consider the fact that being vegan or, you know, eating veggie or living an omnivore lifestyle is really easy and accessible for most people. So it just kind of uphills this trend, this downward trend of veganism in the UK. People just do what's easy to them. Like you said, for me anyway, working a Monday to Friday 9 to 5

at the moment, 96, I just, I don't have as much time to cook as I want to. I still do because I love doing it. But I do, you know, 30 minute and under meals or I batch cook. And when I do that, I will often cook something veggie. But for the most part, I do cook chicken because it's just quick and easy. But the other thing I was going to say is, I think a big part of this is the ubiquitousness of protein culture and how important protein is to not only men and the kind of side of masculinity, but I think women as well, more women I know talk about having to get 100 grams or 120 grams of protein because they're trying to put on muscle and they're trying to get this kind of physique or they're doing Pilates and they, you know, want to have a certain type

of physique. So I do think there is something in this idea of having a protein rich diet and this kind of belief that you can't do that otherwise or it's much harder to do that. And so many people I know are more aware of that. And I think there was a piece by Sharon Carle in The Guardian from last year talking about these kind of myths around how much protein anyone needs and the need to supplement through things like protein powder. And I just, I feel like so many more women I know in a good way and more health conscious. But I do think because of that, it slipped into this idea of animal protein being the best kind of way to have a diet. That's something I've noticed. Maybe I'm just more in those kind of circles. I know you're much more of a gym bunny and only than I am. So I wonder,

is that something that you think is playing a part in it? It's interesting you say that because as you were talking, I was thinking, I came from being in such a protein built place where I would eat inordinate amounts of chicken and protein bars and protein shakes. Then I came out of it and completely just got over it. And it's not really in my orbit and it's not something I think about. But I became aware of it because I think people were talking about what's the lockdown workout man curly hair lean in 15 joe wicks I think he was either he was talking about protein being in products or like everyone trying to now the thing is that every product and I've noticed it now that I heard it but every single product in the supermarket points out how much protein it's got in because it's the thing

that people want to gravitate towards I think because now I have quite a good knowledge and understanding of the properties of food through years of really unhealthily tracking everything on my fitness power I actually don't really pay attention to any of that because I instinctively know things that I'm going to want to eat that are going to be nourishing and things that I want to eat because they taste nice. And I've luckily got that much for an arm's length away from ingredients and food. But I definitely think it's something that's coming up and it's something that we were getting a lot in messages, people saying that as well as thinking about protein, people are also thinking about like you said about ultra-processed food, people wanting to go back to single ingredient diets, which means eating vegetables and meats and whatever else and not having anything that's gone through a machine or been more. whizzed up and to create some other product. And I also thought about what you said, Beth, the label thing. I think it's such a good point. I intuitively eat so much less meat and actually when I do eat meat, it's kind of a big deal. So I'll be out for dinner with the girls and I'll be like,

I might get the roast beef. Like it's a thing. Whereas I never used to think about eating meat before. I would just have it whenever. I often at home, mostly just eat fish or vegetarian. I actually don't even really eat chicken that much. So I genuinely can't be asked to cook it. Same as you return. I'm thinking, what is the quickest thing to get in my gob in the shortest amount of time. But another message that we have from Manant, which I thought was such an interesting point, was there's something that feels punitive with veganism. With the world, it's politics and the depressed global economy. I can see why people will go back to the comfort of eating whatever they want for the small amount of pressure it provides in our grey world. And I think this is true of so many of the things that we're talking about.

And someone else said as well about how post-pandemic we've kind of not come back to this idea of like sustainability during the pandemic. Because everyone, well, the world felt like it was healing and we couldn't really go out and do stuff and buy stuff. actually in a weird way everyone became a lot more sustainable. Then post-pandemic, it's like capitalism is on heat. Like we cannot stop buying. We're consuming more than ever. We're more obsessed with buying, more obsessed with treating ourselves, more obsessed with like Anansas, kind of putting over a plaster over all of the wounds that are made for us because of the world that we're living in. And I think actually we're losing a sense of culpability. We're even more individualistic. We're making even more choices based on our own ego's individual wants and

needs because it feels like we're fending for ourselves. And I think that is an interesting point not to shame anyone I'm not vegan but I do understand that impulse to think oh fuck I've I've held these really strong morals and beliefs for such a long time but what good is it doing I'll just do what I want and that's kind of the opposite of the whole point of that movement before which was even if you just you stop buying milk you know that's however many products not being bought every year we've kind of tipped into a totally different universe when it comes to that kind of idea Maria's message was quite similar and she said not eating meat for the environment seems kind of fruitless when people like Bezos Mask and Swift, etc. exist in care so little. And she's talking from,

she says she's mostly pescatarian. But she says, basically, why should I deny myself a roast pork sandwich when they enjoy life on their yachts and jets without care? There is probably a more positive spin to be had on the change, but I won't be finding it right now. Ha ha ha ha. Which I really, I do get. I think there are, it is a case of wanting pleasure and just the fatigue of making the right decisions, people being like, fucking are, why have I just washed out my yogurt pot? And then Carly Jen has taken her own private jet 45 minutes down the road. I do, I think those things are tied into the individualism, but also like the genuine fatigue of things. And on a nun's message, I know he's sort of talking about the punitive, like within veganism, it's quite punitive. It's

quite restrictive for a lot of people. But I also think the climate is quite punitive. Like I, if I became vegan tomorrow, I tell my friends, my family, I don't think I would ever mention it online purely because to do it and then with that back, whether it's for health reasons or whatever, if people know you to be vegan and then you decide otherwise, even if it generally was for a health reason, eating disorder reason, whatever, it's, for some people, it's just not enough of a good excuse. So I think being visibly vegan online is really risky. And Dorothy said, notice lots of influences not being vegan anymore and not acknowledging it. And I, I think that's it. It's like, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. I'm really pro doing eating less meat,

eating less, eating for your animal products. It's, it's really fantastic. Like it takes, I forget the statistic, but like collectively as we eat less meat, it's like taking like eight million cars off the road. It's really, really vital in the fight against climate catastrophe. But I also, I just don't want to risk the wrath. And I think that's maybe what's happening. People are figuring out their own balances, eating as well as they can for them, trying to do their bit, but just not wanting to get caught in the crossfire of people being like, you're a fucking liar. You've misled us. Risking losing your platform in some ways. If you do get a following from the things that you post and things you eat, I think the backlash would just be too bonkers for me to ever

mention it. The punitive thing is such a good point. And it reminds me of, and I can't remember which episode this is in where we were talking about the reinvention of the girl boss, where the girl boss still exists now, but instead of her saying that she's got this like feminist manifesto and that she believes all these things, she just doesn't say she's a feminist because then no one can critique her for not being feminist enough. And it kind of is making me think that everything that you said, Beth, is completely true. But also it's, it's kind of bad because I think influences were actually responsible for that massive shift towards this kind of pop culture moment with veganism. It genuinely made a massive change in people's eating habits. And I do think that we can

thank a lot of big vegan influences, some of whom were very problematic, as she mentions in the piece, you know, really the banana girl and kind of like the raw food people. But what's happened now is, like you said, we've kind of pushed people with influence to hold their cards to their chest so that they can't be criticised, so they can't be knocked off the pedestals, so they were never doing it in the first place. And I think that's actually quite worrying because then it stops, it also pushes us to feel like we're in a false sense of security. Basically, anyone that kind of had very ethical moral standings or had very high standards around certain issues would talk about them, believe in them, maybe encourage other people to feel that way, whether it was feminism or veganism or any sort of activism. Then the minute they faltered, did something wrong, slipped up, ate a chicken nugget, they were cancelled. And then actually what happens is it just stops like all of those people from getting involved. I think this is almost where we've got to where it's almost sort of like post-feminism, post-caring, post-veganism. We're in this kind of empty landscape where we want to do the right thing, but also you don't really want to talk about wanting to do the right thing in case because you probably might get it wrong. I definitely

do think as well, I read the BBC kind of synopsis around the investigation into the government's handling of COVID. And they, I think, consulted with some behavioural psychologist or anthropologists who said that there's only so much adherence that people can do. And I do think people are so fatigued after COVID that even if it was like collective action because of the good of this, it just doesn't stick anymore. I think people just can't be asked. I think people don't care. I think, and not to, you know, get on my well-trodden molehill of everyone's so rude these days. But I do think it just fits into this idea of community and society and just, well, you shouldn't listen to music out loud because what about the person next to you? Or you shouldn't jump onto the tube or push your way onto a train because what about the person next to you.

I do think all of these things are a bit tied up with each other. I think the idea of, well, what's the point? You know, Bezos is doing X, X, Y, Z, the government party. during COVID. I did my bit for, you know, a stranger's grandma and I've done enough. Like I'm, you know, I'm still not any happier in my life. I think there's this general frustration with the world. So it funnels into, well, of course I'm going to eat chicken. I'm going to order the thing I want. I'm not going to do this for the benefit of society because we're not in a good place. And I'm not in a good place. I don't feel like my action makes a difference. I think it comes

from quite a negative world view. And then on the other side, you have, you know, make America healthy again. You have all of these kind of true conspiracies and falsehoods about vaccines and the things that are good for us and health kind of bubbling away because it's about the collective no longer mattering, just individual choice. You don't have to get your kids vaccinated because who cares if the person next to you gets measles off the back of it, that's not your problem. It's just, I don't know, it's feeding into the lack of responsibility. So I do think it does tie into the politics of our time right now. It ties into all of it. Well, kind of tangentially to that is, and also the fitness stuff. So we've got a message from Maya who says,

But my immediate thought is that a few years ago when veganism was a lot more popular, it was quite linked to fitness and health and well-being. And now it's like the wellness, or not the wellness space, the fitness space is very masculine. At least what I'm seeing, it's a very masculine face. It's very like whole ingredients. It's like, I'm a caveman, I'm doing this. And by extension, veganism has become very feminine to these men by which to say it's unacceptable. They won't be participating.

It seems like in the last little while, things like raw diets and carnival diets have taken off, not just with bodybuilding men and fitness influences, but I will see a very demure conservative woman being like, this is why I only eat steak and butter. And I'm like, barking hell, your butthole must be. And absolutely, do you know what I mean? Like, that's my first thought for her well-being. But also I'm like, oh, that's so interesting.

Like these kind of like dainty veganist, veganists, these kind of dainty vegan meals, which I think were really like of the 2014 onwards of this like very lovingly prepared. I know where the ingredients are from. Gone to the garden, I've done this, has transformed into this like get egg, eat egg, eat nine more eggs, get steak, barely cooker, douse it in butter, drink this milk, this unpasteurized. It's a lot, it's a more brutal phase of fitness and peak performance. And I do wonder, and it's very sexist because I do think veganism does have that ring of empathy.

It's about the planet. It is about caring about animals. And for a long time, it was also, as a side note, about health. But we've now decided that health is dictated by the animal products, the kind of what we believe a caveman ate and drank which I think we all know like do a bit of fact checking it was not steak from Walmart but anyway it just feels very reactionary and very much like the modern presentation of performed masculinity which sells a lot now and it's very very prevalent is someone who loves me is no nonsense about food is kind of ripped loves going outside and just like running around with top

off it's not that colourful delicate food that was really popular when veganism was being sold when veganry was kicking off when people are like maybe I can make a difference from my kitchen maybe I can care what I eat now it's like I care what I eat but it has to be bloody and raw. Off the back of that, I mean, Laura writes about this in the piece, but there is also that, you know, the element that is it leaning towards a more conservative culture, the child wives, the raw milk, the expressions of femininity through clothing and subservience, the expressions of masculinity through meat. But we also had this message from Grace, which I think was interesting because it made me think. She said, I'm still a vegan and the most annoying

thing is people calling it a trend or height. That's not what it is and it's not a diet either. It's your domestic clinic products, your makeup, your shampoo. It's your entire attitude to suffering and to the treatment of other beings. Diet was always the focus in the mainstream, so it was never going to last, just like every other diet. Two things I want to pick up on that. One is the first bit where she's saying, like, being vegan is much more than what you're eating. And she's right. And as someone else said, you know, the parameters on that are very different. Some people think that you can eat honey if you're vegan. Some people don't. Some people think you can buy secondhand leather. Some people don't. It can be a much bigger thing than just

what you're shoving in your gob. But on the point about diet, we cannot ignore that yes, it might have been people who were going down to their allotments, picking their own vegetables and making lovely meals. But a lot of it was actually to do with restriction. It was to do with the fact that you're cutting out massive whole food groups, which means it's much easier to maintain a smaller body. If you're unable to eat cheese, unable to drink milk, unable to eat any kind of dairy products, chocolate, yogurt, whatever, no meat. If you're just doing it like that and you're not eating sort of like meat replacements and you haven't gone out and got Burger King, vegan chicken nuggets, which also don't exist. They were really good. There was a subsect.

of this vegan community that was actually about restriction and restraint under the guise of healthy eating. And I wonder if the necessity for that has gone because we have GLP-1s. You don't need to cut out whole food groups. You can just completely cut your appetite. And where restaurants are not serving vegan options, they are a lot of restaurants now. There was a piece I read about it the other day, you know, bringing out, and we've probably spoken about it, but bringing out sort of like a Zempic-friendly portions, which are basically a quarter of the size portion for people that are on a Zem-Pic so that they feel like they can participate in eating out culture.

when they get full after like a mouth full. These things, these changes in appetite are being catered to by whatever is prolific. Veganism, as Grace is saying, in its true sense, in its holistic meaning, and it's almost like spiritual entity is not a trend, but it certainly was and has been a trend on the food scene, on social media and within restaurants. And I guess the basic, I don't want to say normal, that the traditional diet is always going to exist and what's going to happen is whatever is happening around that. That's how those menus and things will edit them.

And right now, it's actually just people eating a lot less of traditional food rather than cutting out groups in order to create the effect of eating less. We also had a message from Elle. She says, for me, it was partly health reasons. More variety in my diet has made me feel more energized. But also a big part is a social aspect of food. Sharing food, cooking for and being cooked for is such a big part of the way I socialised my friends. And being vegan definitely meant I was missing out on that.

Although I respect those that are vegan so long as it's not for unhealthy reasons like marketing diet restriction, ultimately I bloody love food and how it helps us socialise. I think in the conversation, and many, many vegans are completely fine with this. They understand this. They are not. They are saying, do what you can do every little bit. But like, it is pleasurable to share food with people and it is really annoying. I've seen this with my vegan friends for them not to be able to, for them have to say no to things or have to bring their own food or have to kind of be like, oh, can we actually go to a different restaurant because of this?

And life is very, it is very difficult. And I do think the restrictive thing is a thing that I didn't really think about as a non-vegan. It really is a lot of knows, unless you are very adept and very knowledgeable and very good at cooking. It's a lot of know. The thing I always come back to is that in society, everyone has a little role and everyone thinks really differently. And I think that veganism is, it is to some people quite extreme and would be quite hard to get to that point. Like the person who messaged in Grace, some people wouldn't actually be able to get to that point. And my ex is pescatarian has been for over a decade because one day he was just like, I cannot eat.

animals he just suddenly was like i just find that revolting and to this day we'll never ever he's like i loved meat but i just cannot eat it and i can understand the concept of that but it actually doesn't i don't feel the same way like i understand it but then i can cognitively distantly bite into a burger and kind of forget whereas he can't and i think that is how our brains work i think some people find out about certain things and it revolutionizes their thinking and they simply cannot get away from it and they will become the thing that the hill that they're done the thing that they're really invested in i think that some people won't feel that way i mean we spoke about me watching David Attenborough, you know, animals eat animals. That is something we've

always done. I do take massive issue with mass farming with the ill treatment of animals that aren't able to live a full life that aren't killed humanely that are factory farmed and whatever else. Like that's the bit that I kind of find really upsetting and harrowing. But I probably could, if I had to kill an animal to eat to survive. Like that, I actually think I could do that. Anyway, my point I guess is that I do think that there has to be a spectrum of existence and I don't think that farming is ever going to go away. And I think that the idea that everyone should be vegan is probably also unsustainable as well. And so I think that there has to be this kind of sliding scale of recognizing that everyone

is going to make slightly different choices. And I do think even though veganism is dying, I kind of come back to what you were saying. And I think it's really sad that options aren't available. But I keep coming back to what you said Beth about. Is it just that we're labelling less people actually have learned from that massive pendulum swing? And it's just kind of come back and settle back in the middle with a lot of people, including my parents and my dad, who literally didn't think a meal was complete unless it had some dad animal on it. Now happily we'll have oat milk, eat a vegetable curry. Like, it's really

become a part of the language of people's food and diet and understanding. I think that was really important and great. So maybe isn't that bad that there aren't as many vegans. Maybe what there are are fewer meat eaters who are so hell-bent on eating meat, even though on social media online in the sort of Andrew Tate trad wife content, it might feel like everyone's eating whole cows for breakfast. I think anecdotally, actually, people are generally just more mindful because of that massive push that happened, which inevitably left some people still there and some people going, actually, I couldn't do that forever. I think you're right. And I think that is, I think that is true actually, because anecdotally talking to people, it's not that people who were vegan in my life or

veggie now are eating a steak for every meal, breakfast, lunch and dinner and snacks. It is just that they've maybe added fish now and again as a treat when they're going out for dinner or they have oysters when they go to the beach like twice a year or something like that it's the parameters of their eating habits or what they define as has loosened rather than the lifestyle changing so dramatically so I think that's a really good point and I also do think having had this conversation I kind of want to hold myself a bit more to account and this is only for me I'm not saying this for anyone else but I do think I've kind of slipped into this idea of a few years ago I thought it would be really good to reduce my meat consumption and I have compared to it you know maybe 10 years ago

or through uni when it was just like, oh, all I will cook is chicken for lunch and dinner. But I do think it's also nice to strive to have more veggie meals. It makes you a creative cook, especially if you can just lean on some set meals. And I think that's a nice thing. And I also think it is nice to remember that our choices have repercussions, the fact that M&S, Burger King, whoever, have reduced their vegan options off the back of maybe just an easier trend of this choice feminism style to eating. I think it would be nice for those options to still be open to people. I think that is really heartbreaking. So I think I might hold myself to a bit more of an account

and try and be more creative with my cooking and also just remember that my choices have repercussions, both for the climate, but also commercially for other people. Well, it's kind of round off my end on that point. Oh, sorry, it's got so windy here. We got a message from a friend of the podcast, I'm nervous, who said, the influences who are plant-based

and now the ones pushing beef tallow and high meat, supposedly anti- ultra-process diets. I think it shows how shallowly a lot of people online adopted these principles, and how easily these beliefs are shed. Optimistically, I think it could be time to build a much more meaningful move away from meat that doesn't just make thin and flimsy arguments that will fall apart the second the wind shifts. And I think that's sort of what you're talking about.

It's finding something that actually works for you that is also rooted in a desire for change and accountability to the world at large and also your own willingness or unwillingness to participate in things that you just don't agree with. And I think that is very optimistic. And I think she's right. I think there are ways that each of us can do this without having to go. Full hog. Sorry, full plant-based hog.

Full no hog. Thank you so much for listening and for all of your messages. Honestly, we had so many messages. We are sorry that we couldn't read them all out because we also had loads of hot takes on the subject. But we always love being in conversation with you all. Please do give us a follow on Instagram and TikTok at Everything is Content Pod and also a review wherever you listen.

if you haven't already. We'll see you as always on Friday. Bye. Bye.