Everything Is Content - Everything In Conversation: Non-Monogamy, Girls & Time Travel with Caroline O'Donoghue

Episode Date: May 28, 2025

Get your cameras out, it's a moment for the pop culture history books. This week, we have an Everything In Conversation *with* the Queen of pop culture dee-dives: Caroline O'Donoghue. We tackled everything with the podcaster, writer and journalist, from how we consider art from artists who commit atrocious acts, to why we can't accept satire from women. There are some absolute gems including some very special analysis into why Gordon Ramsey's TV work is a feminist piece of culture worth academic investigation, and possibly one of the best listener questions we have ever received for a guest.... Ramsey's Kitchen NightmaresThe Rachel Incident SkipshockSentimental Garbage Live Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm Beth. I'm Rachera. And I'm Anoni. And this is Everything in Conversation. This week we're chatting about pop culture, book writing, sci-fi, non-monogamy and more in our conversation with best-selling novelist, chart-topping podcaster and hopefully future friend of the podcast, Caroline O'Donoghue. Caroline is the host of the brilliant and very loved pop culture podcast, Sentimental Garbage, where she, alongside so many excellent guests, discusses the guilty pleasure pop culture faves that we all cannot

and should not get enough of. She's also the author of several novels, including The Rachel Incident, which we loved at EIC, plus several young adult books, including the soon to be released sci-fi romance, Skip Shock, which we're going to discuss with her today. We can't wait to get into our chat with Caroline, but before that, just a quick reminder that following us on Instagram at Everything is Content Pod means you can be the first to

know about our guests, can ask them questions, and you can also see more behind the scenes of Everything is Content content. That's Everything is Content pod on Instagram and TikTok. How long way out of home? What a good question. So I'm coming up to a month now. I just like weirdly got my period this morning and I was like, oh wow. Like the day I moved out of my house

was when I was getting my last period. I was like, how have I been living out of the same suitcase for one month? I'm so sick of all my clothes. Like I just keep trying to find new combinations of things I can wear it with. And it's just, it's really, I had like a party last night, you know, cause I'm, so if you saw Dolly Sunday time style

through like a 10 year anniversary for Dolly's thing. We saw. I just have, fuck, we saw. Oh my God. I was making the stories this morning when I woke up. Oh my God. Can I tell you the funniest thing that happened at that party? Of course.

So obviously, you know, they invited, you know, so many starry people. Like, I mean, Richard E. Grant was there and Helen Fielding was there and all that. And so wow, wow, wow. And they invited Nick Hornby, like the author, and the Nick Hornby who got the invite was a sculptor also called Nick Hornby. No. And did he come? He came and he said, apparently it happens to him quite frequently and if the event sounds funny, he just goes.

I can change my name to Ola Mirren or something. Such a good idea. It's, I guess that is a hack. And he, I think as well, he had the personality to carry it cause he was just like amazing gay sculptor who looked like Eddie Redmayne. And like, of course you want that man at your table anyway. Do you know what I mean?

So it's like a lovely surprise. He's actually probably better dinner company than like 55 year old Arsenal fan, according to me. Do you know what I mean? That is amazing. And is he quite established? I mean, it's amazing, probably really good for his career because he can just network at all these events

he's not been invited to. He said one time he was at a literary, he was invited to some kind of festival or whatever, and there was some kind of admin snafu where it was Nick Hornby's sculptor interviewing Nick Hornby's writer or something. I think what they did was they had an in conversation with Nick Hornby writer or something. I think what they did was like they had an in conversation with Nick Hornby and they invited both of them.

Oh, that's so good. So good, I'm obsessed with it because it's such a specific name. But anyway, my favorite thing about the whole thing was the comedian Ivo Graham. Yes. Lovely comedian. He's a massive, massive fan of novelist Nick Hornby

and he brought all of his first editions to the dinner to have signs, and then the sculptor signed them. Stop. Oh, God. This is so great. This sculptor sounds amazing. Well, we might have to have him on. I wish I was at his table. I'm very happy with my table,

but the envy of the room was not at Richard E. Grant's table or Helen Fielding's table. It was at Nick Hornby's sculptor's table. Helen Fielding's table, it was at the Kornby Sculptor's table. But also he must have to keep up the light because I'm sure it must be an email before they're like getting to his address or whatever so he's immediately buying into it like straight away. There's no like he's fully doing fraud. He's like yeah he's fully talented Mr. Ripleying the whole life yeah Yeah, it's fab, yeah. Before we dive into loads of questions for you, we always start off every episode

with what we've all been loving, but now we're gonna direct it to you. What have you been loving in the pop culture world this week? Okay, so I have to be honest, and it's like, because it's nothing contemporary at all. Is that okay? Is that for your clarity? That's okay.

Once it was a biscuit. So, do you know what? Every time I'm like stressed out or whatever, I just, I really fall back on, on telly. You know what I mean? Not television, telly. And they're like the, the re, kind of like late night reruns on channel four

or channel five or whatever. And the big thing for me at the moment is home renovation shows, obviously for personal reasons, but also Ramsey's Kitchen Nightmares. Like I have swallowed so many Ramsey's Kitchen Nightmares. Do you guys watch at all? I have seen it, I have, yes. Years ago I used to watch,

but I haven't watched it for a long time. Gordon Ramsey is so, so curious to me. I never figure out where I land on with him because like he's chosen a life. He's like, the past 30 years of his life have been voluntarily screaming at people for money like that's like he could have gotten off the bus at any point like he could have been like okay I've had quite enough of screaming at restaurant owners and now I'm just gonna like focus on my restaurants or a cookbook or whatever

he's like no I will continue to scream at people well into my old age. And like, I have a theory about it if you guys are. Yes. Oh, I would love the theory. He's like the Simon Cowell of the food world. Like I feel like they're doing like a similar thing. Totally, but like, I feel like Simon Cowell has like, I mean, I haven't really paid attention to him, but I feel like he's like, wound it down.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah, you're right. I think he has actually mellowed in his older age. Exactly, he's a bit like, I'm gonna hang out on my island now or whatever, and I don't think he's doing that much, and I don't think he's even that mean to people anymore, whereas like, I think he's quite lazy, right?

He's mellowed, and like, whereas like, Gordon, he's gotta be in his 60s now, like, and he is just going hell for leather on people but my theory of it is I think the greatest feminist work happening on television is Ramsay's kitchen nightmares. You know how everyone's always like here's why Love Island is secretly feminist and you're like no it isn't but like I actually think because the thing about Ramsay's kitchen nightmares you you're familiar with the formula. Someone is running a restaurant badly somewhere, a lot of the episodes are in America these

days. I think he's run out of English restaurants to berate. He's always more America to choose. It's like the pilgrims. He's got a very adventurous spirit with this kind of thing. So he goes to some random dive in America where like some Italian American family are running their pizza restaurant into the ground because they have this like always, right? Always because they have some aging patriarch who is cruel to his wife and children, is promising to pass on the business to his eldest son, who, you know, is obviously not worthy. And you always get the mother and the eldest daughter or the head waitress who's the fill-in for the eldest daughter. And they're always

like, we are crushed by this man. We are butterflies that are smashed against the window of life. And then Gordon comes in, and it is all for the cameras. I don't believe him to be a feminist, but he comes in and he picks apart the meal and he I don't believe him to be a feminist, but he comes in and he like picks apart the meal and he's like, this is shit, that shit, your shit, this is all shit. And then he'll go up to a woman and he'll be like, what's he done to you? And they're like, look. So it's almost like a Trojan horse, kind of like Queer Eye for the Awful Straight Guy, but it's Gordon Ramsay doing the...

It really is. And always the man is always so horrible and he's so stubborn. And the thing is he's the loudest person in his life who screams. And then they get an even louder person who's been screaming at people for 30 years for no reason. And they scream at him and then he's finally cowed.

And I just feel like it is feminist wish fulfillment television because anyone who's ever had like a scary partner or a scary dad or a scary any boss or whatever, it's this idea of like an even scarier man could come in and fight on my behalf. And I find it the most rewarding television. And to the point where like me and my husband, get obsessed with it a lot and a few years ago and He we had to stop watching it because he he went into work the next day and screamed at someone and then he got disciplinary He was like

Got influenced, oh my god So like I'm so sorry I I would love to say that my pop culture thing of the week is like, you know, some current like TV drama, but it's just this. It's this and how renovation shows. It's so fitting that it would be. Like a deep dive. And I think that about Gordon Ramsay,

because people always, when they parody him, he'll be tearing apart the food and then the waitress will come over and be like, thank you so much, darling. Or he will, I mean, I think there's one example when he made the woman like an idiot sandwich. But for the most part, he's really gentle with the children on his like Gordon Ramsay juniors,

and then he just takes the men and he does what we all want to do, to scream in their faces and take them down a peg. So actually covert hero, Gordon Ramsay. But also on some level, I think the men like it because I think that like there are, so men are so like raised on the think that like there are some men are so like raised on the idea of like a militarized life and most of them nowadays don't really

get it, you know, and they kind of there's part of another kind of pines for like one of the big man yelled at me into submission. And like, so it's like the women are getting their fantasy, the men are getting their fantasy. And that is why Ramsey's Kitchen Nightmares will run for a hundred years. Like we will cry or freeze Gordon Ramsay. Those deep divots in his head. I think he's gorgeous. I would fuck the dog shit out of Gordon Ramsay. We're going to clip that by the way. We're going to clip that bit.

Beth does fancy everyone. Can we just say quickly, this is not a revelation from Beth. Oh my god, Beth, I fancy everyone as well. Don't worry. We're both horny little dogs. He's got a little something something. I'm a bit flustered. He does. Okay, that was a great, what I've been loving that. That will go down in history books. Speaking of, Telly, we are all very big fans of The Rachel Instant and in the news, of course, Channel 4 making adaptation of The Rachel Instant,

if people don't know, get to know. It's been commissioned as a TV series. I'm sure you can't say much or anything at this stage, but one, I guess, how does that feel? And two, how involved are you in that production, if you can say? I'm hugely involved thank you yeah so at the moment I so we're doing eight episodes eight hour-long

episodes which which to me that's the thing I keep tripping up over more than anything it's that like it's really I don't know if you guys have read the book but like it's very much a relationship drama there are no like special effects in the Rachel incident you know and like there's no murder. And it's really rare for something to get commissioned for an hour long drama that isn't a murder show or something, you know. It's really about human relationships and kind of a slow kind of potboiler

on what happens when one moment of miscommunication sort of destroys four people's lives. And so that's the thing that's amazing to me. But I am, eight episodes, I'm writing six of them. And so it has, it is so interesting because, you know, I wrote The Rachel Instance in 2021, yeah, that last long winter of COVID, you know, when it got really bad. It was like, this isn't fun anymore. And so very much with the Why Inspired Writing, it was like that feeling I think we all had during COVID of like,

I'm not creating any new memories so I'm dwelling obsessively in my past or a time in my life where I felt really free. And for me that was like a time when I lived with my friend Ryan and like as I've said many times, the plot is completely invented. Like most of the characters are not based on real people at all. But like the kind of spirit of the time was so inspired by me and Ryan and like what we got up to and what our little subculture of two was in that little house we shared together. And so that was a wonderful time to dwell on, but now it's like, it's 2025, I spend sort of hours and hours and hours a week, you know, drafting scripts, redrafting, skip submitting redrafting again, just obsessively combing through this time period.

And it's like really interesting of like, you know, for a huge part of your now life to be like, let me think of something else I did in 2010, you know. And it's like great because very few people have had this experience. It's really fucking hard to get a novel published, but like, it's like an even smaller sliver of that to get anything made on television anymore is such a tiny, tiny fraction. And I feel so fortunate. But like there, and then there's an even smaller category of people have written a book based loosely on their lives, had it turned on for TV,

and also had one of their best friends as one of their muses. And it's like only one other person who's done that, and it's Dolly Alderton, and she's like my best friend. So it's like, oh, it's like great to have somebody who I can always call, who every single thing I'm going through, she's gone through kind of thing, you know? She's always kind of been sort of my big sister

in that way. Well, it's so, I cannot wait for this. It sounds amazing. I know we all love the Rachel instant. I read it as soon as it came out. I can remember exactly where I was. I was lying on a beach somewhere in Italy with a boyfriend that no longer exists.

One of the big themes in the Rachel instant obviously is love and marriage and the gray area within monogamy, which is something that we actually love to talk about on the podcast. And we were wondering if you think that pop culture is starting to offer a less binary depiction of long-term relationships and infidelity. I also religiously listened to Sentimental Garbage

and I know you often make throwaway, joky comments about you're just gonna have an affair because at some point, someone's gotta do it and you're better off just getting out of the way and they always make me laugh. And yeah, we just wanted to hear your thoughts on like non-monogamy and that not even non-monogamy, but just I guess, is it a complete fallacy? Is it is monogamy a lie that we tell ourselves to sleep at night? God, I have so many, so many thoughts on that. And you know, I think I do make that joke a lot on the podcast, I'm just like, just cheat. You know, if you want to cheat, just cheat.

And like I've spoken to people as well who have like, you know, they've wanted to have an open relationship and their partner has said no, and then the partner has cheated anyway kind of thing. So it's like in the vast majority of cases, I speak to you by the way, as somebody who's been with the same man for 11 years, and I've been monogamous that whole time,

and I hope he has too. And it's so interesting, I was talking to a friend who is open to me today, and they're in a queer relationship. And I do think in queer relationships, it does tend to work better. I think there's greater communication around sort of sex and sexuality in general and I think as well that like because there tends to be,

particularly in lesbian relationships, like it's one of the cliches of life that all Irish people know each other and all lesbians know each other kind of thing and so there's a kind of like lots of exes stay friends, lots of all kind of thing and so there's a there's a real kind of community sense of like it's us, we're here together on the same team, lots of all kind of thing. And so there's a real kind of community sense of like, it's us, we're here together on the same team. Let's all be on the same team in every sense of the word kind of thing. And I kind of love that, but I do often think

for straight monogamous couples, I've rarely seen it work out. And I've often seen one person being slighted or it's kind of like this emergency lever that gets pulled when the relationship appears to be kind of tumbling towards the end anyway. But the one person I know who has who is she's um you know married to a man and has been in a successful open relationship for many years she said to me once the thing is that it's a bit like religion in a sense that you know when you meet people who are sort of half in their, like for example I grew up Catholic and it brings me no joy,

no solace, nothing because I don't engage with it at all and it's just like this accepted background thing of my life. And then you might meet somebody who is really engaged with their faith. Like say if you have a friend who is in the Muslim faith and they do Ramadan every year and you talk to them about it and they never really complain about it and they're just like, I love it, I feel really engaged with my faith, I feel engaged with my community. She kind of said that's kind of what it's like

being in an open relationship. You're so engaged in the act of being in a relationship because you're talking about it all the time and you're reviewing your choices all the time and you feel like you're pledging your allegiance to a specific way of life kind of thing that she's like, you know, see if I could do it any other way, I would do it in the other way. But like this is, this is a lot more work,

but it's also a lot more satisfying for me. And I thought I was like, that is, I, that's such a brilliant observation because it's like, she's not trying to sell me on the idea that it's easier or better or less hassle. She's like, it's more hassle, that it's easier or better or less hassle. She's like it's more hassle but it's also better for me and I thought that honesty was very interesting. Like what do you guys think? I actually had this conversation with a friend recently and we were talking about I think with straight relationships because non-monogamy is still quite a new concept

compared to I guess the history and the sanctity and the kind of traditions and rules around straight relationships and marriage. So it's almost difficult for us to see depictions of open relationships and non-monogamy because it's still, I don't know, we haven't seen much of it. And I think there's no way to say this nicely, but I think because it's such a new concept, it attracts a certain type of person. And I think because of that, maybe it's not always the like best representation of what it can be. Like I'm thinking of Louis Theroux's documentary on polyamory. That was just like couples who looked miserable. But I don't think that's a good depiction because I've seen it. I've got friends who are poly and they're very happy. They're great. All is good, but they wouldn't sign up

to a TV program and do something like that. So I think it's hard because we're not getting the best insight into it, but it also is relatively new and I'm not seeing so many people flock to do it around me otherwise. So I think we're still a bit early, but I think give it maybe five years and we'll see better representations of it, fingers crossed. You're so correct on that, that thing of like the people who are being interviewed by this stuff are very self-selecting group kind of thing. you'll see better representations of it, fingers crossed. You're so correct on that, that thing of like, the people who are being interviewed by this stuff are very self-selecting group kind of thing.

It's like, yeah, to follow the religion metaphor, it's like the people who are pushing pamphlets on you in the street, you're like not gonna have to do. Yeah. You know? One of our booklets we did about Lily J, her amazing essay in the car after her partner Ethan Slater then became in a relationship with Ariana Grande, that whole thing.

Oh yeah. And we were just talking about how interesting it is that affairs are so commonplace. Like they're literally have, there was a statistic that was something like at any given point in time, 72% of men are cheating and 65% of women, but that cheating ranges from like an emotional flirtation at work to full-blown affair. And we were saying, it's like we accept affairs almost, but the idea of like actively accepting that they might happen in terms of turning a relationship into non-monogamy causes this huge shock wave among people that like, I can't imagine doing that. But actually, the reality is that affairs happen kind of all the time,

but we're really confronted by the idea of bringing that into the fall. But then I wonder if it's because people don't want an open relationship, the allure of like cheating and having an affair is the other secret thing that you're doing and it's that temptation and desire. So maybe you can't interchange those two things to make it ethical, as they say, like ethical non-monogamy. Maybe it is like the unethicalness of an affair that makes it so sexy. Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, Esther Perel obviously is the go-to sort of like reference on this, but I remember her saying something that I found really interesting, which is that attraction is the thing that flourishes in the gulf between familiarity and mystery kind of thing.

And I think there's no, no kind of secret that lots of long term couples like struggle, often struggle to maintain a sex life or maintain sense of interest in one another. Because over familiar, when there is no kind of sense of mystery with someone, it can be really hard, you know, for many people to maintain that kind of interest. And then you see a lot of people with affairs. It's like the secret they have with themselves is the thing that creates the kind of adrenaline spike of their life that then gets them reinvested in their partner, which I find fascinating. One thing I always think about, I think we, Esteprel has been around long enough to be like, the tide is almost turning. I'm seeing a lot of anti-Esteprel takes. I really enjoy her. I think she's been just fantastic speaker and thinker of our

times. But I think she's been in the cosmos long enough. And maybe with this kind of conservative rise, people are going, actually, there is no excuse for cheating and you should be stoned to death almost. And I'm also I'm single and only single. I mean, just the idea of dating one person, non monogamy when you do it ethically. I'm going to have to do this with multiple people. That sounds like admin. It sounds like work. It doesn't sound sexy in the way that kind of meeting under a bridge. I wish I had not said bridge, but you know, and having a snog with someone just sounds exciting. It is the stuff of literature. And in literature, we are kind of invited to the character, the Rachel Winston, it's like, empathize, even love characters who are behaving in these kind of morally unsavory, difficult to understand, even difficult for them

to understand ways with the Rachel Winston. And we will move on from this soon. We are just kind of obsessed. Did you have that? Did you have ever, have ever, find yourself having to defend the characters in that or even wanting to defend them? I mean, I came away adoring them, but knowing, oh, that was kind of a real gray area. Yeah, like I, yeah, I do actually. Cause like, I often get sort of like kind of people having their book club discussions or whatever. And like, you know, you guys know as an author, like you never subscribe to the book club thing.

You only ask you to join and you're like, I will not be doing that. But sometimes you get like content they send you from anyway. And they're like, we were talking about this book club and everyone hates Dr. Byrne or everyone hates James or whatever and I do find it fascinating that like it is so everybody is gonna be on one point of the triangle of an affair at some point in their lives and whether it's and I like what you know this is a massive spoiler but like one of the characters in the Rachel incident who is being cheated on she later admits to having an affair later in her marriage herself kind of thing. And it's just like, I'm not gonna say it's a morally neutral thing. I think it's terrible to sneak around, it's terrible to lie, but I also think it's the reason that gaslighting has become the phrase of our generation, I think.

I think that one of the worst things you can do to somebody is sort of deny their reality. So if like someone is suspicious and asks you questions, the idea that you would lie and cover, And I think that's actually, it's a cliche, but it is true that it's like, that is the thing that makes you go mental because you just don't have a firm grip on anything in your life, you know? But yeah, I have had to defend those characters. And like, I love those characters. And there's this bit where, you know, Dr. Byrne, who is this character who is like, he's cheating on his wife, he's sort of like manipulating his lover, he's making life hell for Rachel, the main character, and eventually does this thing that's so much, you know, towards the end there's this big confrontation where you think like, what an absolute piece of shit this man is.

But then there's this also part where she kind of finds out that he's, you know, this was all in her recent, her like 15 years ago, but now this man is sick and dying. And she's, she says to herself, you know, and now I'm crying again, because he, he's such a nice man, or, or was a nice man. And I don't even know because it's so hard to tell when someone's in a coma. And I really wanted to, those were pieces I had conversations with my editor about because that was kind of slightly like, do we need her to be sympathising with him this much so far after the fact? And I really believed that we did, you know? No, that's definitely something that we've spoken about. And it's something that I've come up against with friends when we read the same book, that we almost have such different takes on the characters. And some of my friends really struggle to like, to relate, to kind of champion a narrative when some of the characters are morally dubious or do things that you disagree with. But I've never had that problem. And I always bring this show up, but it's such a good reference point for this. But girls, I always come back to that.

And the kind of response that got and people just completely having this bizarre reaction to characters that they just think were annoying. I thought that that was like such compelling TV and rooting for people that you dislike or do different things to you, that is the fantasy world that we're all given access to, it's the best thing about pop culture. I'm so with you on that one. Girls is always the example I come back to as well. And I think the thing I always like to compare is Girls and Kirby Enthusiasm. Do you know that show? Which is, you know, 77 year old Larry David just going around being the worst man on earth. Like he is like, he does horrible things to people, but you love him.

And I think it's so interesting that like nobody is under any doubt that Kirby enthusiasm is like a satire and you sort of oh you don't agree with what he's doing but it's kind of like there's a release watching someone be really kind of mischievous and bold on tv and like I don't understand why people couldn't extend that same sympathy to Hannah Horvat like she was a mess but she was also kind of a wishful film in character in that she was just like really She was a mess, but she was also kind of a wish for film and character in that she was just like really inappropriate with people and like she actually really backed herself. She backed her own talent, she backed her own sexuality and like people couldn't stand it. They were like, yeah, don't be even mental.

It's so funny. There's a whole resurgence of like a new generation of people watching girls and they're just completely misunderstanding it and it's actually infuriating to read all the commentary there. And then so some people are going, I don't think people understand it. They were like, obviously when they watched it at the time, they didn't realize that she was meant to be like this. And I was like, we all knew what was happening at the time. I think everyone when we watched it in the moment really got it, but there's this like

kind of retrospective view on it, maybe because enough time has passed since Lena Dunham kind of got half canceled or whatever. But it's so interesting because I guess we're only just coming to that age now where the things that were your show of your generation are then getting bastardized by the new generation. I'm stressed that this is going to have to keep happening for the rest of our lives. But also like the thing is those people who are revisiting it, who didn't remember, who were like, you know, 11 or whatever, when it came out originally, if they were like Googling contemporaneous accounts

of girls at the time, all they would find would be like, these privileged idiots and like everything they do is so dumb and it's like, and like, yeah, like people like us who were like watching the show and who got it got it but like the the paper record is very much of you know people who are ten years older writing about it for newspapers being willfully that's what pisses me off the most actually when people are clearly misunderstanding a piece of work on purpose because they would rather shore

up their feelings about the group of people it's being made by then engage with it normally and be like let's look at the piece of art and what it's trying to achieve. This is completely different but like it sort of reminds me of a similar thing is like something that really annoys me is that let's say someone gets cancelled and they have a large body of work and then somebody comes out on their white horse saying how they always thought the work smelled bad, they always knew, they never liked it, da da da. Like you are completely fucking missing the point whether it's like, like I am disgusted by everything JK Rowling now stands for

but I'm not gonna pretend like that wasn't a gorgeous world that she built. And the same with Neil Gaiman, and the same with Woody Allen, and the same with all the, like this is gorgeous work. And the whole point of art is like, not that just morally good people are able to make it.

It's a thing that can be made by any spectrum of the human soul. And also I feel like it's this willful misunderstanding of the fact that like, people make extraordinary work and then if everything works as it should, that work becomes very famous and then the person involved gets very, if someone's doing great, it gets very famous

and then very rich. And then what destroys their personality and often their humanity is the fact that their wealth and their fame separates them from the human population. They lose empathy and they act psycho. It's like that's the course of events. It's like often people become psychos because their work is good. It's not like this thing of like you... The thing that annoys me so much is that you could like look into someone's book and like morally assess who they are. It's like, I think that is such a dangerous way

of looking at art. I'm sorry, it's a question nobody asked, but I really don't care about. It's fascinating though. And like we do, we do retrofit pieces of work to suit our modern narratives. Like, I mean, we all live through, I remember watching Girls at University

and there'd be on the one hand a Buzzfeed quiz, like, are you a Marnie or are you a Hannah? And there'd also be a piece kind of slamming it being like, this is what friends and girls get wrong about the racial dynamics in New York. Like, you kind of have to live through those things to see, to arrive here with this kind of breadth of opinion. What I love actually, to turn this into a question, what I love about sentimental garbage is it does allow for the things in the culture that people go, that shit, oh no, that's good, that shit, that room to deep dive, which is a topic we kind of love to, we love to say that on the podcast, we're going to deep dive into something which seems flimsy, it seems unimportant, and it's not because it's the culture, it's all emblematic of the time it was made and then the time it was watched in. With the podcast, where do you see it going? Do you kind of imagine this staying as it is? Do you have goals of, we're going to, you know, I know you've got different things in the garbage

universe. Do you kind of see this with its, for this to exist as long as there is garbage to, you know. The garbage universe. It's interesting. I am thinking about this a lot because a friend did say to me recently, they were like, I hope you enjoy having that podcast because you're not going to be able to do it for very much longer. And I thought she was talking about she, you know, from a resources type of point of view, as you're not going to have time to do it very much longer. But she didn't mean that. She's kind of older than me and she's like a lot more successful than I am. And she's one of those people where you have like two lunches a year and she gives you like advice on your career and you take it extremely seriously. And she

was like, the thing is, is that you'll have a TV show and then you will become very unrelatable to the people who you were once community with. And she was like, and some, she said, this was like one of the witches from Macbeth talking. And I, and the whole, she only said to me last week and the whole time I've been thinking like, how seriously should I take this? And she said, the thing is, is that something will happen, people will be unkind, and you will probably be lightly cancelled. And she was like, but I don't want, she's like, when that happens,

I don't want you to think it's your fault. It's simply the system flushing you out. And I thought that was such a crazy way to put it. But like, and I don't even think that's about me specifically. I think that's just about like, you know, you see that with lots of creators that you love, that they just kind of they fall out of the universe. Like I used to love Lina Donovan's podcast and you know, she doesn't really do that anymore because I think she feels like it's too vulnerable for her to do that.

And like, I find it very curious questions. I don't know the answer, but I am like paying attention to the question a lot lately. You know, what do you guys think? That is terrifying. I don't know what you say when somebody sits you down at lunch and says that to you. I definitely see that just across the spectrum. Shameless Podcast calls it tall poppy syndrome, which is once you start to rise above, you look much taller to the poppies around you, people start to take notice and that notice

isn't necessarily favourable or savoury. And then yeah, there is a rectifying and correction where you are just like pulled back down. But I just are we still there? Can we? Are we not better than that? I feel like surely hopefully we're better than that now, right? It's so funny you said that because I wanted to, when you were talking about counselling and you know, the pipeline, these people kind of go on, they're artists, they're creators, they're salt of the earth, and then they become celebrity with power. And that kind of distorts the thing that they were originally. But I wanted to ask if that was like a modern problem because historically when you read a book,

you wouldn't necessarily know unless you went to the back page and there was a picture who that author was. They probably weren't doing much publicity. It's quite a new thing that we kind of has to constantly be selling our wares and publicizing our lives online. And I guess being so vulnerable to an audience, we have to sell part

of ourselves basically in order to make sure that our art people want to buy it because that's just the way the modern world's gone. But you think that is a newer problem and so what you were just saying then kind of does make sense to me because I think that the way that we disseminate information, the way that social media works, it's like it's not enough for your art to be good enough. We're so invested in the creators which is why I think we look for that, the moral truth of the author or the creator within the body of their work, which is so wrong. So I've even thought of something, I'm trying to write something in a minute. And when I put something that I don't think, I got really self-conscious and I worry that the reader might think,

she secretly is this evil person, because we've started to create a much stronger bond between the creator and the art in a way that I don't think used to happen. I think that can be scary. And so I understand why once you do reach that status, as you said, when you move into a different section of society where people see you as the real, what are we called? The London literally or whatever they love to that lot. Then you kind of have to, you have to skip that. I love how people think that's an insult and like, you think I'm elite?

Yeah, I know. But it's like, it's almost as if you're not allowed then to participate in the sort of the lay person conversation like we're having now, which is us discussing the art. Once you become part of the system, you have to then like extricate yourself from the commentary from the like proletariat of it. I don't know if that was even a question in that.

No, no, no, I think it's genuinely fascinating because yeah, you are right. And I think what's interesting as well is that the way the economy of books, if we focus on books specifically, has changed over the last decade. I think there's been a real recognition of the fact that this is a woman's game.

I think broadly, historically, novels have always been chiefly read by women and read in droves by women kind of thing. I do think of it as a very female art form in many ways. And there's been a real recognition in the dawn of social media or whatever that women love to read books by women and also women are like really socially curious. And so the kind of the kind of phenomenon of the influencer public figure author has definitely become like more and more of a thing.

Like I was, you know, speaking to Coco Melores recently, who's obviously had incredible success with like beautiful literary fiction. And I love about her is that she's a real gals gal as well. And she's like, also, she loves to kind of coordinate her outfits to her books. And like she takes real sensory pleasure in fashion. And I remember thinking when I saw her, I was like, oh, I love that like a respected literary novelist can also just be an out and out girls girl. And because the audience that she has are mostly kind of female or whatever, it doesn't matter. And it doesn't, you know what I mean? It is like, it's celebrated. And I think that's so lovely.

But I also think it's like we create this beautiful economy, but there is a kind of a ceiling on it then, because if you are somebody who cares deeply about reaching that kind of chin stroking elite, it's probably something you would have to shed. But then again, I think there are very few, it's like that to me is like you play stupid games and you win stupid prizes. To me, the stupidest prize and stupidest game of all is trying to be respected by people you don't like. And do you know what, one of the best examples I think in recent years has been comedy where women would have to try and make themselves look as masculine as possible on stage or

as unattractive un-girly in order to make men laugh because men don't find it funny when women are trying to be attractive to them. So they had to kind of wear converse and a black t-shirt and black jeans and no makeup because then they were kind of like a blank canvas men could project onto. But in the last like 10 years, women in comedy have started being like, actually, I'm going to dress up on my heels and lipstick and feel like I can still be funny even if I'm presenting as something that you see as an object. Because there was this kind of idea like women could either be funny and unattractive or she's hot and then she doesn't talk. And I think that's something that we're seeing across like all

industries, all creative industries where women are allowed to be women as well as something else rather than oh she's a female XYZ. When you were talking there I was just thinking of Katherine Ryan you know who's somebody who's so glam and so Hollywood but she's smart as a whip she's like you know so but she's also so full of integrity and she's so open and honest and all kinds of stuff but I was thinking the other day about you know me too my friend was saying to me she was like do you think me too did anything? Do you think like we're in and we were talking about sort of the rise of kind of the backlash culture that has now created The the mass culture of like, you know horrible misogynist game show American president And sort of the trad wife of it all and the incels and how, you know, backsliding on reproductive, all that stuff.

And she was saying, do you think Me Too was, you know, in some way or another, like it caused this kind of thing? And like, what were the good things that came out of Me Too when people are still assaulting their kind of female workers and all that kind of stuff? And I really thought about it and I actually think the best thing to come out of that movement wasn't Harvey Weinstein going to jail or Bill Cosby going to jail, because ultimately those men are old and they'll die there. And like it's not we're not really taking any active predators out of the system. Like, you know what I mean? It's like we waited until they did all the worst they could do and then we punished them. I think the best thing to come out of it was like a real sense,

like culturally of girls sticking up for girls and really supporting women. And I think the biggest thing that came out of me too was actually people realizing their stories, that kind of not that kind of girl or like I'm I'm not like other girls rhetoric vanished in the space of a year. And now all girls want to be is like other girls and like, we can still be little bitches sometimes but I feel like Katherine Ryan having an army of fans and Joanne McNally having sellout shows and like really like women who are like difficult and complicated and hot and freaky like are just like really they they have their armies now and they they will always work because those armies sort of protect them. And I love that.

I do really want to talk about Skip Shock. There was a kind of confusion where we all went on holiday and I thought we were waiting for physical copies. And I was like, oh, it's a shame. We'll read it after we interview her. And then we realized they'd just been on in a PDF. And so I was really glad actually that we had this extra time. Cause I got to finish the book and I know,

but I kind of migrated onto my Kindle, turned on it side, zoomed in. I was good to go. I read it in about a day and a half. Loved it. Loved it. I'm an adult woman that does read from every age group. Well, maybe not every age group. I'm not doing like Velcro books, but I read young adult. I read biography. I read everything I get my hands on. Before I get into how much I loved it, could you tell our listeners a little bit about Skip Shock, which I believe by the time this airs will be about to come out everywhere? Yeah, so Skip Shock is kind of, it's a sort of a time travel fantasy novel. And when I say time travel, I think people often think I mean going forward or backward in time, but actually what it is, it's kind of time distortion. So how time moves changes depending on where our

characters are. So our two characters first is called Margo she's just this kid who like she's you know 16 going on 17 she her father died two years ago she's not quite adjusted to normal life again she's kind you know, it's not quite working out for her. And so her mother has decided that she should go to boarding school. And again, halfway through the first chapter, she kind of is on a train from Cork to Dublin, and she kind of falls through the world and she ends up in a interconnected series of worlds. Some of them, the time moves incredibly fast. So a day could be two hours long or four hours long. And some of them time moves incredibly fast so a day could be two hours long or four hours long and some of them time moves incredibly slowly so a day could be 40 or 60 hours long and the kind of the power dynamic of that is that like if you're in one of these sort of fast moving worlds

people live and die incredibly quickly and there's a immense sense of poverty around that but they also have resources that develop incredibly quickly as well. And so they become very precious. And so it's a big kind of time thing, but it's also with this character, Margot, she is aging very quickly and she's aging quickly because the time is speeding up, but she's also aging quickly in that way that each one of us was 16 once and something happened where you kind of had that, maybe you, maybe you were 15, maybe you were 17, maybe it was losing your virginity, maybe it was watching your next door neighbor die, you know what I mean? Or something, you know, like you have a moment where experience

oxidizes your youth and you just have, you become different. And I'm really, I've always been obsessed with that moment in fiction. And it's really kind of physically sped up by this. And for Margot, a lot of her journey is realizing that this kind of normal, sad life she's had where her father died in an accident is actually, you know, that thing where you like, you meet other people and you find out how things went on in their house. And then you realize like, oh, maybe the way I was raised was not normal or good. And like, actually that's nothing to do with me. That's more just like the phenomenon of aging. And then sort of the kind of romantic lead in the book is this travelling salesman called Moon who has kind of been

considered a legal adult since he was 12. He's kind of moved between these worlds, he's part of this sort of nomadic people who have been all but stamped out by this kind of political regime they live under. And I guess what I, sorry, this is a really long answer, like, I guess I've always been really fascinated by the idea of not very long ago. It would you would have legally been able to be married at 14 and in some countries that you can still and like our interpretation of what an adult is, is so flexible, depending on where we are in time, where we are in the world,

but also where we are like racially, you know, like where or culturally or class wise of like the way that young men are described as being thugs or adults when they're still teenagers, depending on how the political climate feels about them. And so, you know, it's a kind of adventurous romance. It's, you know, I think if you love things like Spirited Away or The Hunger Games, or maybe even your Sarah J. Masses, like, you know, you find a lot to love in here. I loved writing it.

I think it's really good. Sorry, that's the end of my fucking seven minute long summary. Yeah. It is really good. And I just, to put the listener's mind at rest, like, I'm not just saying this because we're here in this interview. I like flew through this. This is this is just such it's a great book. I would have loved this at age 11 to 18. I would have loved this from 18 to now. I just really, I kind of made it my personality for like, day and a half afterwards. I was like, but what happens next? Like, it's just Oh, I know I'm so in that phase of publicity where I need all the compliments I can get. So thank you so much.

I'm not as speedy as Beth and I haven't finished it because I'm doing another book club about different book. But I love the premise. And I also just think because it's relatable that thing of time as you get older, the experience means that once you've gone through something, once you've experienced something once, every time you experience it again, it gets sped up. So it's like, even sometimes I'll just be walking around like, oh my God, I'm 31.

Like, where did that, when did that happen? Whereas when you're 12, a summer is like six months, feels like years and years and years. So you do experience that kind of movement of time, even though it's- Exactly, I am so fascinated by that whole concept. I'm even fascinated by that. You know, like when you were on holidays

and the first time that you walk from the hotel to the restaurant and you don't know where the restaurant is yet or the little, you know, the little key where all the restaurants are or something or like that, and you're like, oh, fuck, this is taking forever, Jesus Christ. And then by day seven, you could do that walk in your sleep and you don't even think of it as about time.

It's like, yeah, the way experience changes time is so fascinating to me. And I think it's very fascinating as well in a kind of a post-COVID environment where we're still saying five years later, we're still saying like we are grasp of time as is totally changed because of this period. And is that because we experience such a kind of a fluctuation of time where all of us being stuck inside of our houses and all blah, blah, blah, and not making any new memories so dwelling on things longer or is that a natural functioning of like everyone in this chat probably went into COVID in their 20s and came out in their 30s and

so your relationship to time just changes anyway you know so and also it's so subjective like I'm never going to know how any of you experience these things. Like it's an ultimately, it's the most subjective experience. I know that in the latest episode when you're doing your magic mini series of sentimental garbage, the latest one was about the Hunger Games. And you said that the Hunger Games was the set of books that inspired you to write young adult fiction in the first place. And I wanted to know like what the difference in experience as a writer between writing YA and adult fiction, because I was such an avid reader of those kinds of books as a writer between writing YA and adult fiction because I was such an avid reader

of those kind of books as a teenager and sometimes actually feel, which is why it's good. I didn't love Akita but I did like dip my tongue to it, but I do miss fantasy as an adult and I do sometimes as much as I love literary fiction, I love things that are really gritty and truthful and quite horrifying about the banality of life. I sometimes wonder why it is that we divide up stories that are more playful, that include more fantasy for teenagers and why we don't allow ourselves as adults. Why does that have to be YA? And does that frustrate you or do you not mind that it's got that label on it? There's so many times where I'm talking to someone about my book and I can tell by their face and their body language that they're never

gonna read it because it has this label on it and because they have a you know a small amount of time in their life for reading and they're not going to you know what they seem as wasted by reading something that they think is aimed at a younger audience but like for me when I'm writing YA I have to answer completely honestly here I am not visualizing the 15 year old who I desperately want to take by the hand and sort of like, whatever. I don't really, I don't care about the age group

that I'm writing to much. I mean, there are certain genre conventions that I have to obey because of school libraries. But like the thing I love the most about it and why I tend to write in this kind of YA fantasy space rather than adult fantasy space, although I do think that that is very fluid, is that I think the people who read YA fantasy, the contract of the imagination is signed, like with a looser hand, I guess. I think there's a certain amount of certain person

who like, if they read anything with magic and it has to be sort of like rubber stamped by the establishment to kind of prove they're not wasting their time. And like, and this is like amazing, amazing writers like Octavia Butler or Susanna Clarke or Margaret Atwood who all write with using magical constructs or fantasy or sci-fi,

but they have to be sort of like, we have to see that sort of Booker Prize stamped on it first or whatever, and there's kind of an aura around it. Or like, I find it really fascinating how like Lewis Carroll and J.R.R. Tolkien and Philip Pullman, they're all authors who are, yes, very famous for their fantasy, but also very famous for being of an Oxbridge elite. Most adults, if they're going to read any

kind of fantasy like that, they have to be reassured of the elitism associated with it so they don't feel stupid. Whereas the adults who are willing to read YA fiction or sometimes called new adult fiction, they just want to go on a flight of fancy with you and they want to just go there in a way that's a little bit lighter on its feet, I think, which is a way that I really enjoy writing, you know, like, I'm sorry, I just don't have the time to come up with an Elvin language. I'm so glad that JR token did, but I don't, you know. Can I just ask the one question we got from the listener? Yeah.

Or maybe Richira do you want to ask the one that I'll highlight now, which is a kind of fun one. I don't know if you can see that. Listener Marina wanted to know who is your dream blunt rotation? Dream blunt rotation. Okay. Oh my god. So we're talking like famous people, right?

Yeah, it could be fictional maybe. It could be sort of anyone from the realm of imagination and pop culture or just a little Okay, oh my God, so we're talking like famous people, right? Yeah, it could be fictional maybe. It could be sort of anyone from the realm of imagination and pop culture or just history. Okay, Zadie Smith, because I heard her on a podcast recently and somebody said, like, how do you like to relax? And she was like, oh, you know, drinking, dancing, eating drugs, and I was like,

imagine smoking a joint with Zadie Smith. I bet she says the most fucked up stuff. I bet she's like a massive edgelord in private. Like she's like being really problematic and funny about it. Yeah, I agree. But she's also just so honest. Like she was on something the other day to talk about how she's so scared of getting old and she just hates it.

And I was like, you don't expect her to say things like that for some reason, because you feel like she's above it, like she's too good to get. So Lady Smith is just taking a massive toke off of Faddy and like she's passing it to her, you know. So you want someone who's like a little bit on the sillier side, who's going to like really make her silly and me silly. So I think the next one on the rotation would be Jack Black. Is this going quite sexy? I feel like if you're like a similar to Bath with your crushes, this is turning into sort of like an orgy. Hotter and hotter every year. This would be a fabulous orgy. So then it's like me, Jack and Zadie are like very silly.

So we need someone who's got a slightly different, maybe serious but still bananas energy kind of thing. Who could that be? Oh god, Emily Matliss. I was not expecting that. No. No, no, no, no, no, sorry. Sorry, revise, revise, revise.

Deborah Meaden, who I'm obsessed with. Dame Debra. I love Deborah Meaden. I love Dragon's Den so much. Yeah. She's so amazing. And I would die to meet her. I mean, I don't do weed because it makes me afraid.

Like how many people are in a blunt rotation? Oh, I thought you said three. I always think it's three in this concept, but I might have just, that might just be three as the number. No, I think three, two for some reason. Yeah, I think four, I think four, one big joint between four people feels about right to me.

That's enough to manage everyone's emotions and have a positive experience. After that, it's becoming too diffuse, I think. Oh, my gosh, this has been so... This has flown by, I can't believe it's been an hour. So sorry, that was meant to be half an hour. I love this. That was such a treat. This is great. I've been listening to your podcast all week in preparation.

And I really love you guys. I'm delighted to meet you. This has been a dream blunt rotation for me. Oh my God. You have this so cute. It's a dream blunt rotation. Anything coming up that listeners can get involved with. So if anyone wants to join me to talk about any of this stuff,

dream blunt rotations or time travel or anything in between. My podcast is doing a live show at the Union Chapel on June 14th. Is that right? Hopefully there'll be some links in the show notes. I'd really love to see you all there. Thank you so much for listening this week. Make sure you go grab a copy of Skip Shock, or if you somehow haven't read any of Caroline's other books, they come highly recommended

from all of us at EIC. We've also popped a link to the magical edition of Sentimental Garbage Live which is taking place on Saturday the 14th of June at the Union Chapel in London. You can find us on Instagram and TikTok at Everything Has Content Pod and if you've enjoyed this episode or literally any episode ever, please do leave us a rating and a lovely five star review on your podcast app, It Means the World. See you on Friday. Bye.