Everything Is Content - Everything In Conversation: UK Transphobia & Why We Need To Listen To Trans People With Maxine Heron

Episode Date: June 3, 2026

Hello EIComrades, happy Pride month :). In today’s episode we are speaking to Maxine Heron. Maxine is the online comms officer at Not a phase a registered, trans-led British grassroots charity dedicated strictly to supporting and uplifting transgender and gender-diverse adults across the UK, as well as being a model, creator, writer and public speaker, and friend of the pod.A couple of weeks ago, the The Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) ruled that single-sex changing rooms and bathrooms in England, Wales and Scotland must exclude trans people. The guidance issued to public bodies, businesses and other service providers, has been approved by ministers. It’s such a dark time in UK politics, we speak to Maxine about the real world implications on trans people, how we got here, and what we can do to help.Sending lots of love to every trans person out there, we love you & so do all of our mates. O,R,B xoxoxxWrite to your MPMaxine HeronNot A PhaseToilets and changing rooms must be used on basis of biological sex, guidance confirmsTrans lives survey 2021: Enduring the UK’s hostile environmentWhere does the British public stand on transgender rights in 2024/25? Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm Beth. I'm Ruchera. I'm Anoni. And I'm Maxine. And this is Everything in Conversation. The content primer before your full beat on Friday. We'd love for you to take part in these conversations, whether you're agreeing or disagreeing. We want to hear from you. And you can share your takes by following us on Instagram and TikTok at Everything is ContentPod. That's where we decide on topics and invite you to get involved. In today's episode, we're speaking to Maxine Heron. Maxine is the online conference. officer at Notaface, a registered trans-led British grassroots charity dedicated strictly to

supporting and uplifting transgender and gender diverse adults across the UK. Maxine is also a model, creator, writer, public speaker and of course, friend of the pod. Okay, so thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Before we dive into the good, the bad, the ugly and also your work with Notafeyes, can we ask you, what have you been loving this week? What have I been loving this week? See, I'm a bit of a sucker for internet drama and maybe this isn't such a mainstream

pop culture phenomenon right now but do you know who Judy Jupiter is? No. Okay, maybe this is more my like gay algorithm. Judy Jupiter is this woman in the US who somehow like infiltrates all these bougie exclusive events and then she'll just go up to extremely famous A listers who she doesn't know who they are

and she'll have her flash on her phone and she'll start filming them and she'll go, wow, you look so pretty, sweetie. What are you wearing in here? What's your name? What's your Instagram handle? Do you have anything to say to Julie Jupiter's followers? And normally the celebrities are really sweet.

They're normally like, oh, hi, I'm Sabrina Carpenter. I've seen Sabrina's. Now you said this, I know what you're talking about. Yeah. So there is a video that went so viral like in the last few days. She found Azealia Banks. And there was a comment on the video

that said, this was a near-death experience. Because, of course, she starts swimming Azealia, and Azealia's like, yes, who are you? What's happening? I feel uncomfortable. And then Judy Jupiter's like, do you want to give a spin for me? And Azealia Baxter's, no, I don't. I don't. I was just like, who are you wearing?

And she's like, literally just like death staring into the flash. Anyway, and then what has unfolded it after that has just had me in a complete chokehold. Like Azealia Banks' Instagram stories yesterday were just so lethal. Like just, it was just like, it has me so. And Jupiter is the sweetest person ever, but it also had me wondering, like, if someone came up to me at a party and just started filming with the flash fully,

or would I jump into media training kind of like responses? Or would I be like, do you mind not filming me at this event right now? I don't know. Anyway, it's just, it's got me. Like, I'm constantly waiting for the next chapter of this drama to unfold. I'm just truly gripped by it. How does Isselia Banks get involved, even when she's not trying to get involved,

in absolutely everything. She's omnipresent. She's one of those people, you know, like she's so, her online presence is kind of demonic. She obviously had hits back in the day. But she's one of those people that, you know, like a broken clock is right twice a day. She's one of those people. Yeah.

She has the occasional take where you're like, oh, you did kind of eat with that one. But yeah. She's similar to me for like Donald Trump where I have so much in my lexicon that I realize I've got Trumpisms. You know, I say many such cases all the time. People are like, that's Trump. I go, oh my God, I must expunge this. And same with Isalia Banks' stuff.

In my lexicon, like so-and-so you have to die today or something like that, I do say. And it is because she is, she is a profit and she has a way with words, but unfortunately, truly sinister. And she has since threatened to punch Judy. Gosh, she gets nowhere near that old lady. No, protect Judy at all costs. No, I remember there was a tweet about Kristen Stewart a few years ago about from Donald Trump. And we actually in my flat have it printed on one of those, like, reusable water bottles. And it's like, Chris was such a fool, cheating on Robert Patterson.

She's done it once and she'll do it again. It was like just such a funny pop commentary. Like, I don't know, I kind of did live for it. But yeah, my friend is in that I say. Oh, yeah, he should have just gone into like gay fashion commentary. We would all have been much safer. But yeah, my Trumpism that I always use over message is just sad, exclamation mark. Sad.

Classic. A classic, yeah. I do actually remember that tweet from Donald Trump and it's such a shame because it really is just like, unfortunately he has had some amazing iconic poetic tweets in the past and it's just so annoying to give him that accolade. Yeah, it's him saying that he's known his son for a really long time but he won't be going to the wedding. It's like I have known him for a very long time.

And that's probably how his son found out that his dad wasn't coming to the wedding. No, I genuinely think that is how he found out. Oh my gosh. I know. It's too good. I cannot, but just too dark. Too dark. Well, that was a great recommendation. I'm going to get stuck into that. Oh, there's so much. There's law on law on law. We have so many things that we do want to talk to you about, Maxine.

Thank you again for being on. One topic is the recent news. Last Thursday, the Equality and Human Rights Commission, the EHRC, ruled that single-sex changing rooms and bathrooms in England, Wales and Scotland, must exclude trans people. The guidance issued to public bodies, businesses and other service providers has been approved by ministers. And it feels like such a dark time in the UK. I mean, we have been following this since last, since 2025. We've been following that Supreme Court ruling. I think we've all been separately incensed. Can I ask, how are you feeling about it? What has been this sort of initial impact? Well, the initial impact for me personally, I think so many trans.

people wanted to just turn their phones off when they saw the news last week and I just simply wasn't really able to do that like my work as online commas officer for not phase meant that I had to put together with the help of our chair of trustees D and our chief exec, Danny, we created a group chat and we just got stuck in with making sure that we could put something out that was factually correct, comprehensive and gave people something reliable that they could go off of and it just meant going straight into the discourse kind of head on and yeah, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, the impact of this is kind of immeasurable. I was thinking about all the different ways that this will impact trans people's lives.

I'm probably not impact the lives of women, frankly, because it's often, like, the main demographics of people that are brought up in these debates in this discourse are trans women and then women outside of the trans community. The lives of women from day to day are not, as I have seen, I know that I might have some kind of bias, but I don't see how trans people are impacting the lives of women from one day to the next. There are so many proportionate concerns that women are dealing with from one day to the next, and trans people are simply not behind these. But the lives of trans people, if this guidance, well, we're currently in a 40-day window

before it gets made statutory. And yeah, on the other side of this, it could get a lot more challenging for, in particular, trans women. But also trans men and gender non-conforming people, and also people outside of the trans community as well who might not perform their gender in a very conforming or binary way. they also will be affected by this. Intersex people who make up up to 1.7% of the population, which is actually more of the population than trans people make up,

they too could be impacted by this, will be impacted by this. So it just feels like we're going into a kind of uncharted territory, and it feels incredibly daunting. And yeah, where I too would have loved to have just turned my phone off, put my phone in the bin, it just simply wasn't an option for me. So tackling it head on was, yeah, quite rough, honestly. It's quite hard.

I actually wanted to, I'm so sorry, first of all, like this is just so infuriating and I know the girls will feel the same. It's just reading stuff like this and like you said, there are so many things that do impact women and trans women and the idea that trans women are being held as like this majority scary thing that we need to be scared of is really frustrating because it's also just at the bottom of all such a waste of time and just totally harmful to trans women. But Sean Faye wrote something which I thought was really interesting as well and she wrote

because trans people are an imaginary enemy for the vast majority of people in the gender critical movement because they don't know any. A lot of their wins are sort of predicated on an idea of how the world works that doesn't actually bear any relation to my daily life. Like, am I going to go up to the info desk at the many, many British train stations that appear to only have single sex toilets and be like, hello, despite evidence to the contrary, I'm actually a man. I'm now asking you to please provide me with a third space in order to protect the safety

and dignity of women and protect myself from being alone in a room full of men who seem to react to me like, I'm a woman, which I, of course, I'm not. Oh, and can I get that third space? base before the 1004 to Winchester please, which did kind of make me laugh. And it also does show how ridiculous this is because it's all that's going to happen is it's going to put trans women in danger. But also what are you supposed to do practically? And like there's no real solution here.

It's literally just pandering to these really loud voices that are extremely transphobic to make them feel like something has happened. But really as a trans person operating through the world, it does just feel like trans people, they're trying to just exclude trans women. from public spaces and I wondered if that's how you feel and I wonder if you could also talk about not a phase and you'll work with them

and like especially this campaign that I know you've got coming up in June. Well yeah there's a lot to cover there definitely to start with the bathroom comments specifically I mean yeah Sean always really hits the nail on the head I think I just kind of want to share what it was like for me at school really when I didn't feel like there was a bathroom that I could use I started transitioning during my teens

and there's this um there's this reframe of the way that trans people speak about these topics. There's often like the gender, as they refers to themselves, gender critical feminist, the gender critical movement. I don't believe that what they're doing is feminist because I think it will be regressive for women in the long run, but we can come back to that. But yeah, they'll often say, you know,

we never stop talking about it. We're so obsessed with it. But actually the reality is that like, if we don't feel like there is anywhere where we can go to the bathroom, we're just going to go without water. Like that's actually what I did when I was at school. People will actually just start to go without the resources

that they need to live comfortably. the things that people take for granted every day, drinking water, eating regularly. I know trans women personally who are panicked about having to use the bathroom in public at this point. And they will go a whole outing out of the house, even in a heat wave, without drinking water, because they don't want to become someone who feels like an inconvenience in these spaces. And that's kind of what we're going to take people back to as well. And it's not so much about specifically the times in the day that you might need to use a public bathroom, because you might not even need to use a public pathway.

This could impact the way that employers perceive their trans employees or trans prospects. I think that the way that this could continue to push trans people to the margins of society, as you mentioned, you know, keeping trans people, in particular trans women, out of public life, I think that it will push people to lines of work where they are further, further kept behind closed doors, doing things like sex work. And I won't speak disparagingly about sex work by any means, but I know a lot of trans people who do sex work. And it is a means to an end.

And if they didn't have to do it, if they had other prospects that they felt within their reach, then they'd be doing that instead. But I think that with things like every time a trans person goes to a job interview, if we're making a narrative that they are an HR nightmare or that you have to build a new building or room in your office to accommodate them, we're not creating a world where trans people can show up and have the same prospects that the rest of society do.

And that's the knock-on effect of this. I think people need to be paying much more attention to than simply trans women saying, I would like to pee in peace. I'm going to be in a cubicle. You won't even know I'm there. I promise there won't be any trouble. Like, it's really about this broader knock-on effect,

but I think people aren't really considering. And yeah, it's very tough to imagine the people that this will be impacting. Like, it's, with such a small portion of the population. In the last census report, it was found that trans women make up about 100,000 of the UK's population. Trans people as a whole make up about up up up up up up 0.5% of the UK's population. That's one in 200 people. So for all of this upheaval to be happening, to accommodate this tiny portion of society, it just doesn't really make sense to me. Like, as it stands, there are so many other issues that are affecting women.

Women are losing their lives every single week at the hands of a man that they already know. The statistics of domestic violence are enormous, you know, every time England plays in the Euros. If they lose, then domestic violence rises drastically. If England wins, then it rises, but not as much. and the day after as well the domestic violence rates remain the same regardless of whether England wins or loses. There are so many different things that I feel women need to be preoccupying themselves by. We talk about the protectile women and kids argument that the right has, where's their voice on these topics? Is it because it can't be commodified and turned into

clickbait? Because actually maybe they don't care about the fact that black women are statistically more likely to die during childbirth or during the first year after their baby is born. The white, white new mothers are. I just feel that the more that we're pouring fuel onto the fire of this specific debate surrounding trans people, it's a kind of look over there that gives an escape route to those who are perpetuating astronomical harm to women across this country. And I find that to be gravely concerning because the real concerns that people are losing their lives to are staring you in the face and you're just deciding to look somewhere else. And yeah, that's why I find trans exclusionary feminism or gender critical ideologies to be really harmful for

all women because I don't see this as the escape route. So improving the lives for those in our community who need it most, child poverty is really on the rise. Last year we had a record high of wildfires in the UK. There's no bigger crisis right now than climate crisis. And all of these things need to be tackled so much more urgently than trans people sharing your space if they happen to be in the bathroom that day. I really wonder where we would be on any of those debates if the same amount of energy was put into any single one of those topics instead. And I find it really disheartening and challenging to see it this is where we are right now. And to just touch on my work with Not Face as well, because I'm really proud of everything

that we do at the charity. And maybe just touch on my own career a little bit as well, actually, I'd really like to share with everyone like how I got here. So I transitioned when I was a teenager and with the help of my parents, and I'm really, really grateful for that. I was one of the people who had puberty blockers, not in the UK, I must say, because they were not available on the NHS. My own experience with the NHS was not that they were handing out.

Pupty blockers like lollipops, they definitely were not. But yeah, I was able to go overseas for treatment for puberty blockers and then I had my surgery during my teens as well. And then after that I went into what we referred to as a stealth, which is where you don't really disclose to anyone around you that you're trans. Like I started college, did by A levels, just living a very authentic, happy life. And I felt myself so much happier than I had been for the whole of my teens, able to do things like go to the bath through but drink water in the day. I just live really freely and feel like I was showing up. society in a way that really represented who I am and what I am. And yeah, just felt like I was able to really excel as my as my realist self. And it was about nine years after that when I was about 26, I think that I started to feel really, well, over time I had felt quite disconnected from some of the people around me. I felt as though I was getting sucked into conversations. The general public speaks about trans people like semi-regularly. And if they don't know that you're trans, they will speak to you about trans people. And I was exposed this kind of bizarre, indirect transphobia and working with people and befriending people on occasion who definitely were only

hanging out with me or in my space because they didn't know that I was trans and I just wanted to have a bit more of a genuine and fulfilling connection to the people around me so I came out online in 2018 after that I just started doing kind of I started to grow a bit more of an online presence I'd never really had any social media before or anything like that I got this job at a makeup brand and I was working there for five years called Jacka Black. And then after working at Jacka Black, I have now been working at Notaface as their online comms officer for two years. My role basically means keeping Notafay's online presence as consistent and reliable as possible, making sure that we reach new supporters, making sure that we reach new service users,

communicating everything that we do and remaining a consistent and reliable voice, particularly on topics like this, is really, really important within my role. And at Notafaz as well, so we have over 5,000 monthly service users. And we provide free fitness, wellness and self-defense classes to the trans community with our misfit sessions. That's maybe what we're best known for. And these can range from like weightlifting to swimming to rock climbing to pole fitness. We have so many different types of fitness classes.

And it's such a contentious topic right now, trans people in places of fitness wellness. We just want to bridge the gap and make sure that trans people are able to focus on their mental and physical health during this time. outside of misfits we also have online community spaces with our trans connect sessions which are peer-led online support groups we also support in-person spaces often sober spaces we feel like it's important to unite the community away from nightlife although nightlife is fabulous it's like very important to bring people together in the daytime we also do DEI training yeah we're active campaigners for better trans inclusion and i have a debunking transphobia series on our social media as well which i feel is

going to be only more useful as time develops. So yeah, I think that's everything in your question. It's actually so amazing just hearing how much of a 360 approach, not a phase takes. It's not only about advocacy. It's not about just campaigning. It's also about creating the spaces that, you know, the UK are actively just creating hostile environments in. And I think that's so, that's so special. It is such a dark time. Beth said it. And I just was wondering for people who are looking at the news that they're confused, how the hell did we get here? could you explain just like especially with the Supreme Court ruling and then now to this point even maybe the years preceding that how have we got to this really dark point with transphobia in the UK?

Well, how did we get here? I think it's interesting to chart the regression in respect for trans people and the decline in opinion about trans people. We can chart that really clearly over the annual or sorry it's not annual but the, I think it's every four years there is a UGov poll on public opinions. And as recently is 2018, December 2018, the most popular opinion when asked the question, does allowing trans women to access women's spaces present a risk of genuine harm to women? The most popular opinion during December 2018, which really isn't that long ago, that's what like, less is five and a half years ago.

The most popular opinion was, no, there is no risk of harm in those spaces if you include trans women. Fast forward just four years to May 2022. And the most popular opinion then, when asked the same question from the general British public, was yes, having trans women in women's spaces does increase the risk of harm in those spaces. And during that time, during that specific four-year window, which I feel was really pivotal and quite crucial if we're going to look at this topic specifically. There wasn't any increase in harm from trans women in these spaces. I think trans women are, when you compare trans women, particularly to like all these other issues

that I say women are facing. Trans women are coexisting alongside the rest of society quite harmoniously, doing the best they can, just trying to live their lives. During that time, there was an enormous increase in negative press coverage from platforms like the Daily Mail, if we're going to name one in particular. There's been a drastic increase in negative press reporting. And trans stories are reported on more and more with less and less trans journalists covering them. I feel so often trans narratives are taken away from us. As I said earlier, the climate crisis is definitely the biggest problem that we have on our hands.

If you write about the climate crisis, that doesn't sell clicks. if you write about a minority group who are quite disposable to the rest of the general public, those clicks can become quite easily monetised. And my understanding is that as part of the stage of capitalism that we're at right now, if you share inflammatory stories, there is a lot in it for the companies

who are sharing those stories, and there's a lot in it for those investors who are paying for advertising space. And so it becomes this kind of like self-fulfilling thing where the more that those stories gain traction, the more it kind of plant seeds for more of those stories to have a presence online. I feel like it's just been such a boom over the last eight years where we've only seen those

stories continue to grow. I would say, and the political motives alongside that have been growing and working alongside the media in tandem. As we stand right now in the UK, the UK back in, I think it was 2015 or 2000, wait, when was it? Oh, yeah, it was 2015. The UK was considered to be the number one country in Europe for LGBT people. And we're now 22nd place.

we've fallen 21 places. We're now not even in the green zone of best countries. We're in the amber zone. We're in the lower end of the amber zone. In the next time that we do this report following this update from the HRC, we could be in the red zone. And I find that to be deeply shameful that in just over a decade, we could genuinely be in the red zone of countries that are hostile towards trans people.

We've seen a drastic increase as well. We saw an increase over a four-year period specifically where there was a drastic increase in, in hate crimes against a trans community that reported to the police. And yeah, I think when people ask how we got here, I think that it has been

a slow but steady incline in the presence of fascism, both in our media and in our politics as well. We're very concerned about, you know, the rise of the Reform Party. I've personally very concerned about the rise of the Reform Party who wants to do things like take away health care.

They want to take away the NHS, they want to take away health care, they want to take away immigration, they want to take away. They want to take away abortions for women. Some of the people working for reform want to take away abortions for women, even in instances where those women have been raped. So there is a specific set of values which align with what fascism is rooting for.

And that set of values say that there is a normal way to live. And that is a heteronormative, 2.5 kids, one household, nuclear family, monogamous, usually white, like, extremist kind of set of values that is trying to be. upheld by the media and the right-wing government as well. So those two things working together and this idea that to be different is to live in a way that is wrong or in a way that is regressive to society. I feel transphobia is just one of the tools that is pushing us a little bit closer to that extreme framing on how we need to live our lives in order to show up in a way that is going to be rewarding to us. And yeah, I find that to be very dangerous. I think that's

something that should concern all of us. I think we should all be able to live freely. I think when it comes to things like gender, if it wasn't part of the natural human experience to wonder about these things, or for some people to transition, as we have been documented throughout history, to have experiences of gender in Congress, if it wasn't part of the human nature to have curiosity about these things, we wouldn't need laws in place to make sure that we don't do that. So I think we also need to look at other countries and whether or not they're doing this. And lots of countries are frankly not. The only one that I can think of is Trump's America.

And there's a reason that so many other countries are overtaking us with their own inclusion and protection of trans people. So, yeah, it's a very challenging time of the UK. I think it's a time that should be alarming all of us, even if these topics don't affect you directly. I think this is something that will come to affect you because if this can happen for trans people as one minority group, this could happen to any other minority group as well, this scapegoating and this misrepresentation.

So, yeah, we should be very aware of that. I think, I mean, we've said this so many times. It can't be understated. these turfs, these gender-critical feminists, and again, I say that in heavy sarcasm and quotation marks, their biggest allies are not other women. It's right-wing men, and it's so naive to think, well, they'll stop at this group that I don't find savoury.

They'll stop here. And it's just not, it's never been the case. That is not how fascism functions. And I think, I mean, I think I'm a tiny bit older than you, I'm plenty of older than all of you, but being born in the early 90s and growing up in that area of media and then online, it did feel, things were heading in one direction very firmly.

I remember like, you know, education rights, visibility. I remember 2012. I was very online. I'm still very online. Janet Mock's kind of girls like us. Suddenly actresses and actors visible coming out. Front pages. I remember being so online that time and have remained just as felt that the change has been

tangible. And now we have, you know, I wanted to ask also about your glamourable. cover, the Women of the Year cover from last year, and I think it was yourself and eight other groundbreaking women, voice of community. It was, you know, the dolls, including former guest in front of the pod, Sean Faye, who we mentioned earlier. And I still see that cover posted with so much joy and celebration and pleasure. And as a former glamour writer, made me very proud. What was it like to be a part of that at the time and since, I suppose? And did you think it would be as impactful and important as it was? Yeah, I mean, thank you for mentioning it.

I feel like it was, but when I first, so it's kind of put together with grammar and also with the help of not a phase's chief exec, Danny St. James, who's just amazing, like love Danny so much. And she put a set like a group of us who she feels are doing great work within the community forward to glamour. And then they made decisions about who they wanted to feature on the cover. and I was really amazed and really proud that I made the cut. I kind of at this point, having done a fair amount of advocacy online, was prepared for quite a big backlash. Like, there's nothing that anyone can say to me at this point that I haven't heard already in my comment section. There's literally nothing that I can hear that is like that I haven't already heard from my comment section. Yeah, the day was really fun.

The shooting, it was really fun. Get nine trans women together. We honestly, it was really. funny, like it was a really funny day. We were all making each other laugh. We had a lot of fun. Several of us are like quite good friends in real life as well. And yeah, it felt really good good. And then knowing as well that it was going to be featured in a series of covers and that the sugar babies were having one and of course over in the US, Demi Moore did one, Rachel Ziegler did one. Like what people forgot when it was taken out of context our cover was that these are a series

of covers. It's more of a commentary on women and the demographics that they come from and making sure that glamour make their stance on this abundantly clear that they include trans women in their feminism, that they include trans women in their women of the year. And what I found quite sad was that a lot of people didn't simply Google what the women of the year cover series was. Like they were reacting so quickly to Pierce Morgan and J.K. Rowling's tweets about us saying, wow, so, you know, the only women of the year are trans women. And it's like, well, no, no one said that. Like, Glamour didn't even say that. They were just saying that they include us. And yeah, we were really proud. I remember we were all at the awards on our like the dolls table having a fab time and then

suddenly all of our phones start going and I'm like, oh my God, it's on Fox News. And like it was such a bizarre thing to know that maybe, maybe Donald Trump has seen my face. It just like was so odd to picture that. And of course, the vitriol that we all started receiving after that from like, often like I remember Sean doing an Instagram story not long after saying like the meanest woman on the internet is some like white republican woman called like Kathy with like Matthew 1112 in her bio she's commenting like the meanest thing you've ever heard in your life on your Instagram post being like you're a man and you're gonna burn and hail and it's like you all like yeah we had a lot of those but I kind of just saw it as an opportunity for more people to stand up and say exactly how they felt about this cupboard because even if some people didn't agree with it, even if they take my points into account such as this was a series of covers and they don't agree with it, I don't care. We didn't do it to become like agreeable people with everyone. We did it because this is a commentary that I feel the rest of the world had an opportunity to get involved with. And I was really pleased to see how far reaching it was because it started a kind of global conversation.

And I think media should be impactful. What happened to impactful media? What happened to starting a conversation? And that's what that cover did. And whatever your opinion was about whether or not I should have been on there, I think we should be grateful that it gave us a moment to talk about and to engage. And I saw people engaging who had been quiet about it. And I felt glad that people had the moment to say, wait, no, this is how I feel about this. And yeah, I loved it. I loved it too. And what Bessa before and what you touched on is so true about what my relationship with the trans community was growing up.

So when I was little, I didn't really know that there were trans people. Then I became peripherally aware of it. We had a trans teacher at school and it was just like you'd notice and go, okay, No one ever spoke about it. It was just so not a thing. It was just like that we have a teacher who's trans. Then I got old and I went to uni. I remember this was at the time when actually the public media was being really good about it.

I remember there being a really good, very positive BBC documentary about people being trans and explaining what it was. And then I found it interesting, started to understand it more. But again, it was never like a negative thing. Then I moved to London. I made friends who are trans and everything was just sort of like, this is just how it's going along. And then suddenly it became this point of contention. and the media started talking about it, people started demonising trans people.

And I wonder what your experience is of, as you did transition and you were, like, as you said, stelf for a bit. Like, could you literally feel that animosity growing? I know that there were points in your life when people didn't necessarily know that you were trans, but can you literally map a feeling of becoming aware of that? And do you think that genuinely there was a time

when trans people could exist in society and it actually not be a problem and then be welcomed and feel safe? Or do you think that's maybe a bit too rose-tinted? Maybe it always was a bit unsafe, but certainly better than the high, high levels of hostility we see now. Like poor random trans women trying to go to the loiter at a train station being filmed and blasted all over social media.

Like the level of hostility policing, and it really is segregation that we're seeing right now is incredibly terrifying. I can't imagine how it must feel as a trans person to be existing in the wild as it is now. but I guess I ask this because is there a blueprint we can get back to where actually there is a safe place for trans people to live and feel like this is okay actually I can just be who I am and I shouldn't have to feel scared. Well as you mentioned like people often don't know trans people like we make up such a small part of the population if you're somewhere really like cosmopolitan like London, particularly if you're in East London, we're everywhere. But like if you don't know a trans person in real life then you are part of the majority. and I have a report here by just like us from 2003.

They say that if you know a trans person in real life, you're twice as likely to be an ally, and that the vast majority, I think it's three out of five people. I don't know a trans person in real life, or maybe it's three out of four. It's very much a case that we're relying on the media that we consume to make the opinions that we have. And you can say the same about any other demographic of our society

that you might not know in real life. You're relying on what you read about that person. And that's the danger we're taking these narratives out of the hands of the people who are living it. I think that's a big part of what's really gone wrong as well. People are following a media narrative to make a determine, like to determine exactly how they feel about the specific subsection of society. I think there was a time when trans narratives weren't as heavily taken out of trans people's hands.

I think back to a kind of sweet spot around Nadia winning Big Brother. I think that that was quite a cultural moment because for a trans woman who was from overseas to be winning Big Brother was kind of fabulous she was the first trans representation that I saw I think that I would love to say that that could happen in today's world I just don't know if it would happen in today's Britain

I don't know if it would happen in today's Britain I would love to see it happen but as well as Big Brother obviously not being as big of a show as it was like it was on when we had like five TV channels back in the day I think that there was a sweet spot around then where it was definitely a bit of a scandalous thing to be trans but people didn't have this like obsessive as as the

gender criticals refer to it like sexed indicators list on people's bodies they weren't doing body scans like has that person got a browbone are they tall are they broad what are they what are their feet like what their hands like like now there are people who I think genuinely go into the women's toilets and act as if they are the gender police and they are ready for the next person that they see who doesn't conform to those ideals that make up what they believe a woman should look like and yeah I think there was a sweet spot where trans people were kind of just it was much more, it felt like a much less nosy society, I think. In my adulthood, I can't say that it feels super different, but I can say that for lots of my friends who are more noticeably trans than I am,

or are often more, or like more often red as trans than I am, they have felt more unsafe in recent times. They have noticed that they have received more abuse in the streets. And that's really what this discourse is adding to as well, as well as, you know, not necessarily making women safer, because I don't see how the outcome can do that. It is making people hate trans people more. And the decline in public opinion towards us is really clearly working because so many of my friends do feel less safe than they used to. So yeah, I mean, for me, I kind of am really grateful for the privilege that I have

that I'm not red as trans when I walk into a room as much as at times can make me feel a bit like forgettable to be like red as girl with brown hair. It like, it definitely is protecting me and more. ways than I could ever know. So I am thankful for that. But I really do think of my friends a lot who are concerned, particularly my friends of different demographics, black Asian and minority ethnic groups, my friends from different, you know, different class backgrounds or working class backgrounds who are working harder and trying harder to pull together the resources that they can to fund their own medical transitions privately because trans people are on enormous waiting lists in the UK that sometimes

are like five, six years plus, like in Scotland, it's like over 100 years at one clinic for people, to wait for a first appointment. For me personally, I haven't noticed as much of a public decline. I've noticed, but I've always overheard people talking about trans people, particularly during my, as I referred to it, as stealth years, but it's mainly my friends who don't have the same, the same, like, presence in society that I have, with the intersection that I have as, like,

a white middle class woman who's never read as trans when I walk into a room. Like, I'm not as worried about myself, but I do worry about my friends who don't have that specific lived experience. It's like, yeah, yeah, I just want everyone to be okay and not to feel like worried when they walk down the street. Like no one deserves to feel like that or live like that. No, it's like it is just one of the most basic core tenets of being a human, hopefully, that you just feel a sense of safety where you live. And just to remove that is so, it's so significant. It's so huge.

It's not a small thing whatsoever. We opened questions up to our listeners and we had people asking what they can do to support and be an ally. They just said, what practical things can we do to support trans people during this time? What practical things can people do? So I think one of the things that people forget about is their own strength and their own capacity to disrupt uncomfortable conversations. If you see a trans person on public transport and you think someone's going to give them grief, just give that person, give the trans person like a little smile or like try and do something. You know, you don't have to pronoun check. You'll be fine.

but like just keep an eye out for people. I think we're so locked into our phones and our headphones and I feel like just trying to lead with kindness for these people who are genuinely just trying their best, genuinely just getting to from A to B, we're all just riding the same trains. We're all just on the same tube at the end of the day. And I think standing up for people

when you see injustice in real life, disrupting uncomfortable conversations around the dinner table, making sure that you're informed by platforms, whether it's not a phase or a trans creator or another organisation who is providing reliable information, facts-driven information that is not inflammatory, that it's not click-baity, that it's not rage-baity, but is fact-driven.

We need to bring it back to the facts when speaking about this. The fact is trans people are not a threat to people's safety because we're not behind the dangers that people are facing. And yeah, just coming back to that and making sure that you're aware of the media that you're consuming. And practicing critical thinking is really important. I feel like critical thinking is a skill that you can apply to so many different areas of your life.

And once you've practiced it on a couple of topics, you can really deepen your thinking around so many other things as well. Part of that is hearing both sides of many of these debates. And being open to the fact that you might be wrong sometimes is actually a really beautiful thing. It can really deepen your own closeness to your own thoughts and your own conclusions about these topics. But yeah, redistributing your power,

platforming trans voices, platforming trans perspectives, platforming trans organizations, organizing and fundraising for trans organizations, donating as well, whether you make monthly donations or whether you do a fundraiser at your work or do like a vintage clear out and then donate part of that. Like there are so many different things that you can do to be an ally to this community. And I think at one point it was very virtue signally and very trendy to put your pronouns in your bio. And the reality is that for most people that were doing that, you can probably guess what their pronouns were from looking at them.

Like it was kind of to me as a trans person, I personally felt that it was a little bit of a redundant thing to do because it gave people, it was almost like putting the black square on your grid and having the blackout day during 2020, like, what else were people doing besides that? It was this kind of like, look, I'm not racist. You know, people, the brown ones in their own. Look, I'm not transphobic. It's like, okay, are you, have you read a book? Can you tell me who, can you tell me what the transgender issue is? Like, for example, like, have you tried beyond this or is this where your advocacy begins and ends? So I think making sure that your advocacy begins and ends somewhere really purposeful with a bit more intention, a little bit more sacrifice. There's not always going to be that

much in it for you, but actually often that work is the most important. So yeah, staying informed, donating, supporting organisations, following at Notafaceorg on Instagram are all excellent things that you can do to show up and yeah, to make sure that you're redistributing your power. We all have so much more power than we think we do and in tricky conversations, you might just have so much more leverage because people might not want to hear about trans topics from someone like me. They might be open to hearing about why you're on side. So never forget, never underestimate your own power in those conversations. That was actually something I wanted to say and I feel like I can speak on behalf the other two but as three cis women who are all friends with trans women, have trans women in

our lives and love trans women. There's never been a second moment in my life when a trans woman has ever even inconvenienced me, let alone make me feel scared. Every time you speak, Maxine, you're so intelligent and so important. I was actually like almost crying at the first thing when you answer because I just thought this is so fucking ridiculous that we have to sit and talk about this because it's just, it's absolutely maddening but I'm really grateful for you to coming on

and talking about it because I know that this is something that directly impacts you and it always does make me feel sad when a member of a community that is being at that moment in time ostracized and treated so terribly has to kind of come and speak on behalf because it feels, you know,

it feels unfair but really, really grateful to you. I'm grateful to you. you all for speaking about it. And you know, I, like I said, it's about redistributing your power. Like, and only you and I are, like, quite good friends anyway. We chat quite regularly. And when we're messaging about this, yeah, the fact that you just scheduled it within a few days, like things like this, platforming trans people, platforming several different types of trans people are so important as well. Like, I'm only one perspective. Yeah, I'm quite knowledgeable about these things for not a phase. But people listening, if they are platforms

themselves, like, it's really important that we also hear from people like trans men in these discussions and gender diverse people as well who can speak really well on their own experiences. There's such a wealth of experiences that I feel it's so important that we all hear from when having these discussions because they're so often left out and like, you know, with the Supreme Court ruling last year, not one trans-respective was factored into that conclusion. At the time as well, the British Medical Association that 50,000 medics of the BMA said that the decision made by the Supreme Court was both scientifically illiterate and biologically nonsensical because of its erasure of trans people and in sex people as well.

So yeah, remember your own power and yeah, I'm really grateful that you shared your platform with me today. And yeah, thank you so much to all of you for having me. Of course, it's been such a privilege. I think, I do think turfs do forget that these are not conditional beliefs for the rest of us. Like trans people will never stop existing, nor will people that love trans people like trans people, like, and champion trans people or just know trans people. And to know and like and love and live with and alongside trans people does kind of defer that unshakable belief that everything I have in terms of rights and dignity should be shared. There is no, there should need, there needn't be no golf or difference.

And I think it's why there are, I think, turfs are short-sighted and that they will not win the war on this. But yeah, I think it has been such privilege to talk to you. I think people will really, really take this, this episode and all of your knowledge and your generosity here on board. Thank you. I just wanted to mention as well really briefly. So we're about to launch our contact your MP template on our site, which we are currently at the time of recording this in a 40-day window between the EHRC guidance being announced last week and then it becoming statutory. And during this time, we can pressure our MPs to respond and complain about the guidance which has been announced. I personally am managing my expectations at the end of this 40-day period.

I'm not saying that this is our solution. I think we've had plenty of opportunities by now to disrupt this. But we do have the option of contacting your MPs. I would implore people to still do that, to make your stance really clear. Your MP needs to hear your voice and needs to make sure they're representing the community that they are representing really accurately. So if you head to not a phase.org and go to the contact your MP feature, at the time that this comes out, we will have a template ready.

It's ready to go. You literally just follow the steps. And then it will take you to an external window, which will have your mail, like your email. and then you can just hit send and yeah i'd really appreciate people took the time to do that so thank you so much of course and we'll add that into the show notes as well thank you so much for listening and for all of your thoughts on this topic we read all of your messages and they guide our discussions so please don't stop sending them in please also give us a follow on instagram and ticot at everything is content pod and please give us a review wherever you listen if you haven't already

we'll see you as always on friday bye bye See.