Everything Is Content - Modern Friendship : A Deep Dive, Part Two

Episode Date: September 19, 2025

Happy Friday to all who celebrate. This week we’re serving up part two of our two part friendship deep dive, first discussing affirmation culture and how avoiding tough love can rob us of growth within relationships. Then we get into the meat of modern friendship and how influencers can further the idea that we're all better alone. Finally we ask whether we think more people should consider reinventing the family pursuing a platonic marriage.Thank you to Cue Podcasts for production.We hope you enjoy, thank you for listening O,R,B xx--------Is Affirmation Culture Sabotaging Our Friendships and Ourselves? Dunbar's Number: Why we can only maintain 150 relationships Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm Beth. I'm Ruchera and I'm Anoni. And this is Everything is Content, the podcast that delivers you the piping hot tea on any and every topic. From books to TikToks to the adult entertainment industry, we've got you. We're the chatiest members in the content group chat. This week on the podcast, we're returning for the second part of our two-part friendship deep dive. From platonic marriages to what even makes a good friendship in the modern world. Follow us on Instagram at Everything is Content Pod

and if you haven't please make sure you hit follow on the show on your podcast play wrap so you always know when there's a new episode. So I am desperate to know if I'm the only person who has my tough love friends and my friends who would probably help me bury the body. I'm now questioning what exactly makes a good friend and I really want us to hash that out together. This all kind of came from a piece that I read in the cut called is affirmation culture sabotaging our friendships and ourselves by Catherine

Jessamorton, who asks whether female platonic adult friendships, specifically even one to her mothers, are too affirmative. She writes, quote, maybe affirmation-based friendship is a wider phenomenon of our current moment, not exclusive to new moms. Maybe it's related to our widely pathologised way of thinking about selfhood totally as healthy or unwell. I noticed this in the popular concept of the three H's. The need to be either helped, heard or hugged. There is a cautiousness innate in the way that we seem to approach the self these days. Be careful with me, we demand. I like to be handled with care as much as the next person, but I also wonder what we lose when we stick to validation instead of risking the

consequences of directness when it comes to our close friends. She even references the joke, the widely kind of common joke in the girls' group chat, that you would validate anything a friend does, from cheating on a partner to stealing from a shop, because the other person, especially if men or capitalism are the victim deserved it. She argues this not only absolves us of everything, it's easier than having a difficult discussion where you hold someone accountable over message, but it absolutely also absolves us of the privilege of just being an asshole in a situation. Firstly, I want to know, what did you think of that premise, the idea that we're too affirmative, possibly in our friendships, because we're all pathologising every single

thing we feel and do? And is it something that resonates with you and your life and your friendships? I do think, even saying this out loud, I feel worried about, I think men are trash went so far that it did allow us to absolve our friends of criminality. Like, I think that we were like, if a man is the victim of this crime, it's a victimless crime. Like, we couldn't, and I think that there does have to be a point where, but I think, I think it's a really gentle-handed thing. Like, I think often people know when they're doing something wrong. I think sometimes as a friend, you do have, you're allowed to not shame them and stand by them and let them figure out themselves. Because I also do think it's one thing to hold someone

accountable. But I actually was such like, again, I don't know if it's, I've got like a slightly neurodivergent brain, but I was such a truth say to the point of it being like problematic. Like I couldn't understand like not pointing out in fairness or injustice. I was like, well, we have to say this for what it is. And then as you get older, you realize actually a white lie, letting someone do something. Often if you kind of tell someone that you think they're doing something wrong, it's not going to make them get to the correct conclusion quicker. It's just going to make them think, I can't trust this person. And I do think in most instances, people have to make their own mistakes and learn their own lessons. And you can nudge them

along the way. Obviously, it's not great if your friends do something really awful and you're like, woo, go girlfriend. But I also don't, I think on the other hand, that sort of like lambasting or telling your friend off is always necessary because I think deep down people are already carrying a lot of shame for the mistakes that they're making. And sometimes what they actually do need is support to cushion them along the fall of, you know, falling from grace in their own minds so that they can pick themselves back up and write it eventually. What do you, what do you think? Yeah, it's that, it's a really hard line to draw or to always get right of like, what does my friend need? Is my friend in danger of like really stepping out of their own or her own?

own moral lines. Is she going down a dark path? Is she about to do something even more egregious, which apparently is a word that we use all the time. My mother said on this podcast, but doing something really egregious that she's going to regret forever and you have to step in and say, listen, I'm worried about you and this is why and actually it's an act of love. Or is it something like you say when she's going to get it right, she is just venting at this point. She does, I don't necessarily have to say, we don't always necessarily have to be like, I love that you made this decision. I think it's the right decision. I love the, you know, stepped out of your, your value system and, well, whether it's cheating on someone, which I do think I would

struggle to excuse, but you don't have to excuse it. You can just be like, you can ask questions. You don't have to affirm someone, but you also don't have to immediately jump to the, this is a teachable lesson and really slam them. Sometimes you probably do. Sometimes tough love is loving, but a lot of the time you can go, and why do you think that you did that? What was your thought process behind that and allow them to lead themselves like horses to water and drink the delicious water of knowing better, doing better? Because we're all adults and we are for the most part aware of when we have done wrong. What I did love in the piece, like it did sort of nail that dynamic and I'm like, oh damn, I think this fucking play is about

us because I do sometimes when like, yes, queen, support women's rights, women's wrongs. But in reality, I don't I don't support women's wrongs because I think it makes life harder to do a lot of bad stuff. And when she writes, women in this situation are considered categorically blameless because women are categorically blamed for so much, there's a cosmic score being settled. Women have been fucked over by men for so long that we should get full immunity in our domestic disputes. And she's not, to be clear, that the context of that is not, she's not saying that we should. But that is sort of the party line. And it's hard not to see that perspective. Like, the harm's done to women in the world by men, at times you do think,

how am I going to criticise you for being a bit toxic or distrustful or like flinching or self-sabotaging because almost feels it's a man's fault in some way and I know that's toxic and I know that bad behaviour is bad behaviour and we have to model better for each other but sometimes you just cannot, I cannot have it or I cannot find it within me to give someone grief when I know he might have had it coming. I didn't like that I was in that picture with that quote specifically. I know I read it and I was like, oh, oh. she just she just said the damn thing um yeah it's it's annoying because it makes me have to

reflect on the fact that that also is nonsensical as an approach and the fact that that feels so reasonable but actually is so unreasonable is annoying yeah that's why i enjoyed the piece because it also was it was it was a bit it was a bit spicy about how many of us have got ourselves to this point of just excusing every single thing that a friend does. And I think you're right. I think I, because I've had friendships where the other person has been really shaming towards me when I was younger, I think I really crave friendships that are non-judgmental. I don't mind if people, you know, throughout like a very astute, you know, slightly spicy comment if I say that I'm, or just like a wild thought that I'm having or just like a self-sabotaging thing,

that is very welcome. And I find that really funny. But I also think that I just don't necessarily respect shaming within a friendship because it's not understanding, it's not patient, it's not curious as to what's going on with your friend. And that's something that I definitely struggled with with early friendships, having that kind of moralizing. of things I was doing and also looking back for situations that did not warrant that kind of response. Things like, I don't know, just maybe fancying somebody who was a bit crap or being in a relationship that kind of sucked and then having your friend just talking about you making wrong decisions and then it just, I don't know. I don't get what the point is. I don't

get who has a right to do that and who doesn't and I don't really understand how that's friendship because it's asserting boundaries and almost trying to control the people around you. Whereas I think maybe what I perceive to be good friendship is honesty, authenticity for sure, showing up as your real self, even if that means saying uncomfortable things that you really believe or you think is the right place to say it and the right time to say it to your friend. But I don't think it's asserting your morals on people. I don't think it is telling them that they should behave differently in trying to curtail their behaviour.

I think it is just being yourself and also understanding that they might be different to you whilst also being curious to who they are as a person and what they might be feeling and what they need from you. That's where I think I'm getting to with this, which is, yes, we can be too affirmative, but I think maybe we should be more, maybe we should strive for honesty whilst also being patient and understanding. Is that just a load of word salad? What do you think? No, I totally agree. And I think that point about shame is exactly it. I think Shame has no place in a friendship because it's it's judgment, it's projection and it's unproductive. I think shame pushes people away. It maybe makes them make worse decisions.

But I think there's a difference between not shaming someone and also just being totally avoidant. And I think that some people don't get involved in situations where their friend is self-sabotaging or self-harming in a sort of like a non-literal sense. And that is also not a good friendship, I don't think. I think there's instances where you can say, I think what you're doing right now, I don't like it. And I don't really want to talk about it. But that's why I stand in it and then you leave it. And you know, you've said your peace, but you don't think you're going to be able to change their mind. But I think a really good friendship. And I've had this done to me by one of my best friends and I've done it to others is when you literally have to sit your friend down and be like,

what you're doing right now is not helping you. It's not helping anyone around you. And there's not going to be any good long term consequences. And it's painful and it is shameful and it really, really hurts, but only someone that really loves you and really cares about you can and will do do that for you. And I do think that that is something that is so helpful because I think one of the coolest things people and women can do to each other is when no one says anything and everyone's kind of saying it behind their back and they're being like, look what she's doing. And no one's facing their front because no one wants to say, because it is actually really hard to be the person to say that as well. And I think that as painful as it is in the moment, it can, you can be

cool to be kind. And I think that that's the worst thing. So when someone's, when people are avoidant, when they're letting someone carry on bad behavioral patterns and if you're talking about it behind their back, that's, that's not okay. But I agree with you, Richarda, that when I was younger, I had really black and white moral views and I really wanted them to be heard. And I was like, where that came from, probably people pleasing, probably a need to prove that I was good, that was worthy, whatever else it came from me basically. Now that I'm older, things are much murkier. They're much greyer. Someone might do something that on paper if you wrote it down, that's like that's bad. In the context of me knowing them in the context of life and everything,

I can sit and go on balance. It's not great, but it's like ultimately, whatever, that's your decision. And I think it's like knowing how to weigh these out. And it's funny, I've had conversations with friends before where it might be happening in your peripheral vision with someone and you're thinking like, why is one of their really good friends, not saying something like should we but that's not my place and I think it's like you do have to know when you someone is your responsibility and this goes back to something we spoke about before about being indebted to your friends part of being indebted to them and owing each other something is owing them the truth that you say virtue when they really need it and when it's going to be

it's going to hurt but it's going to be productive and actually sometimes that could kill a friendship for a bit or forever but I think every now and then that has to, that red button does have to be pushed. I do wonder whether the root of our reluctance to call out a friend or have exactly these conversations, part of it definitely is because we want to show love to our friends, we want to be gentle and we just don't want, you know, it's difficult to be in that position where you're the one saying, hey, I need to pull you up on this. I wonder if that's half of it.

But I do think there's also something in this modern culture where we are very bad at calling people out where actually we've equated criticism with telling someone they're irredeemable. So I'm thinking of like how online we do this. A call out is not just, hey, you could do better. It's and I can't believe you've done this and here's a pile on and you're a bad person. Which reminds me a bit of the book Conflict is Not Abuse by Sarah Shulman, which is, I got a lot from this book. I think it was quite controversial, but it's sort of about this overcorrection in society of conflating

how we kind of missed real abuse. and real bad behaviour because we are so busy faffing about in the shallows and like trying to punish each other and trying to cancel everyone and desperate to kind of have the moral high ground rather than just see all the ways that we are all fallible and everyone will make a mistake as virtue of being human. So I wonder whether in the modern world criticism so often means someone is calling you like irredeemable bad, shaming you. We don't know how to apply that to our personal relationships and yeah in the book like conflict is not abuse. In the same way telling someone that you love you have done something wrong is not like besmirching their

character it is just saying hey i want better for you and in a society where we are so unable to see the gray area or to admit good people do bad things it's not always as as black and white as good bad morally correct morally incorrect it's so hard to critique a friend or to start a conversation that begins i don't think this was the right thing to do because i am guilty of this because if this happened online i'd be like i'm in big trouble i'm cancelled i'm over, I am not a good person, I think it has maybe trickled down to our intimate friendships. And yeah, and this is a thing, I don't know when this happened, but I think this is a good thing to learn is like learning how to not feel defensive and also how to offer criticism in a way

that lands properly. And this all comes back down to communication again, but it's being able to say to a friend, hey, I know this is really complicated and really difficult and this isn't about you as a person, but I'm just sometimes when this happens or you're doing this and I'm I'm a bit worried about you. And I know this is all this like therapy speak stuff, but this has been, it's been really helpful for me in understanding conflict and also accepting if someone says to me,

over the years I've really learned, if someone comes to me with something and says, I didn't like that you said that or whatever, I've really learned to just go, okay, thank you for telling me and accepting it. And that sounds weird. But if you're on the receiving end, if you just take it,

it kind of becomes so easy. But I think it's exactly what you're saying, Beth, about that thing of, it's really hard like so many of us especially as women I think because we're brought up with such small parameters of what makes a woman and how like perfectly pure we need to be and kind and kind of any show of negative behaviours in a woman is unseemly and unsightly and I think we're still really unlearning those deeply trodden ideals about womanhood and recognizing that we can be ugly we can be messy we can be rude we can get things wrong as long as long as you

know, we're not doing that all the time. It doesn't mean that that's symptomatic of us being a bad person. It's just we might be, you know, slipping into negative thought patterns, negative behavioural patterns and finding a way in yourself to allow other people to point that out and actually being grateful for it is really useful I've found personally. I really related to you saying that at different times you've had friends sit you down and have to have difficult conversations with you and you've been in the opposite side of the chair as well. And yeah, it just made me reflect on when that's happened growing up. It is just horrible.

And I think one beauty of growing up is at least at the minute those situations have been less. But I also feel like the scale of them is smaller. But when people have told me I've said something or I've done something that bothered them, I feel relieved that they've told me because I am so hypervigilant. and it's something that I really have to work on. But I really feel hypervigilant about upsetting people and whether that actually changes, whether I still upset people, probably not,

but the feeling of the fear is there. So every time the curtain comes down and somebody tells me, I just feel so relieved because then it builds trust in that if anything ever goes wrong, we have the dialogue open. So I don't have to worry as much. And that feeling is so reassuring that I don't need to worry. I can take my foot off the gas because actually, you know, there is trust in this relationship. We will just tell each other when things go wrong.

I don't need to be, you know, with my little magnifying glass, pouring over conversations. It's actually good. The, like, the stream back and forth is strong and robust. We're good. So I think it's been nice to be able to view it that way more so. And it's not easy, but I think it's nice to feel that rather. than just like panic and guilt and shame if I have done something that's upset somebody. It's nice to reframe it, I guess.

So the modern world of friendship is really fascinating, I think. And I think there's lots of different camps and languages and ways that people are approaching it, specifically female friendships. I think female friendships has been a focus of the last eight to ten years in a way, in pop culture, in conversation, in a way that perhaps was not before, you know, heteronormative romantic relationships were the thing. And suddenly the new thing was female friendships. I think Dolly Alderton's, everything I know about love, was one of the first waves of this that really kind of cemented and encouraged the importance of female friendship

in a way that I thought was really productive, helpful and beautiful, but also fascinating the influence of that book. I genuinely think there's a generation of women at our age who actively chose to not get into relationships, who decided to point to their friendships. And I think that's really great, but I also think maybe it's too much following a path. I think we're always looking for a Bible. We're looking for a script. And for some people, that became it. It became the way to do things. And then on the flip side, I've noticed, especially like in influencer circles, thinking about Molly May, thinking about other people that I follow online, where women are quite openly saying, I actually have no friends and it not necessarily being a bad thing. And I don't think it has to be

a bad thing, but maybe actually that's a lie. Maybe I do think that is slightly against what we should be seeking from life is I think we do need, even if it's one or two friends. And then the more extreme end of that is the opposite end of people absconding from romantic relationships, setting up communes with their girlfriends are the trad wives who are pretty much anti-women, whether or not they think they are, pouring everything into their husbands into this sort of nurtured, beautiful, idyllic life that seems to have absolutely no sense of female community within it. And I just think that's, it's a really fascinating time to be alive. And I wonder if it's confusing for younger women but what do you make of the friendship messaging of the last decade what have you taken from

it sorry if that's a really bad question i can't really think about it's not at all it's interesting because they all seem to still be about men which is the thing i find quite wild because even everything i know about love it's still it was about friendships but it was also a bit about men so it's about farley getting into a really serious relationship possibly you know the biggest of her lifetime at that point and the rupture it has on her and Dolly's friendship after the fact that they are best, best friends. And it's almost like a Bible to weather that kind of situation and to talk about that rupture and how you deal with that and the love story at the end between these two friends. And then talking about the tradwifery about it all, the centering of men

above all else and centering the family unit, the kind of intrinsic, immediate unit that you've crafted with your husband and your children. And then the kind of middle ground you mentioned, it still feels like a bit of the latter and the kind of disillusionment of the need for women around you. So it's interesting that despite the topic being about female friends, I still feel like there's either centering of men, a removal of men, a kind of challenging of how you deal with men. And it's just, it's interesting that even, even trying to navigate friendships, it's still kind of a confusion and maybe a decision of how you structure romance in that and like a sexual relationship. I feel like we're not figuring out really how to place all of these different

things in our life in a way that feels good. It's either a complete removal of them, a complete, like bringing them down on the structure list or just putting them right at the top, it just really reminds me of, you know, the rise of relationship anarchy a few years ago and a friend saying that regardless of if it's a platonic or a romantic relationship, they're all going to be the same for her.

I feel like we're all still negotiating all these different things and moving the chess pieces. And I think that's the dilemma really at the heart of all of this. What do you think, Beth? I think, watching, I've seen a few videos now of... trad wives and self-procamed trad wives but also women who are homemakers and mothers and that is their vocation and career often also involved is sharing that on the internet and they are saying I'm giving up shame at not having female friends and then laying out here's why and they're saying

I don't have time for female friends I'm running a house and running a family but also I don't want female friends I get everything that I need from my partner my husband and and I get this fulfillment from my children and my duties as a wife and a mother. And on the face of it, okay, this is someone saying, I've cracked my life, I've achieved what I want to achieve, and I am happy. But still, it sent a chill through me. It's one video in particular. I think I sent it to you both.

And she's so beaming. She's making herself a coffee. Her house is pristine. She's really in this. She's like, I get everything from my husband. and it just makes me think like that feels like a bubble that can and does burst constantly where life gets hard, relationship don't always last, children get older, the idea of just shooing and doing away with a safety net, even if your attitude is husband, God, children

first, but here are some people that in a crisis I can call, just feels very short-sighted and very maybe not arrogant, but definitely like hubristic. What works now is not always going to work and friendships are not. They are a long-term investment. You put the time in now, you get and you give, you have to, I don't know, feed a friend's cat, you have to listen to them, talk about their boyfriend for the umpteenth time, you have to schedule each other's lives around one another. But what you receive is kind of future surety and no matter what happens in life so unpredictable, you at least know there are going to be people there that I can rely on and people that can run on me. It just, I couldn't understand. I do think it is a modern phenomenon

of shutting the front door, turning the latch and being like, here it is my whole entire universe. Like, I just don't want my universe if I ever do have children, if I get married. I don't want my universe to begin and end at my own front door. It just feels like anti-community. It feels anti-self in a way. I agree. I think there's obviously always been people in life who've been loners who really flourished kind of in their own company with minimal community. And I think that that is absolutely fine. And I trust and believe that there are people that function really well from just being independent. And I'm sure that must be from some evolutionary point. There was like a lone wolf person that had to sit outside on the edge of the camp and didn't really chat to

anyone. I don't know really anything about that time period and the evolution time. But at the same time, I think that it's, it's, we're doing ourselves the disservice to not acknowledge the importance of community, which we've spoken about so many times. And I think that the internet is the perfect breeding ground for this kind of content because it is easier, obviously, to not have friends. Like, friendships aren't the easiest things to maintain. I think women especially can be really damaged by female friendships in their youth and it can make them really turn against women in later life, perhaps turn towards a more like trad wife life because they, feel safety in romance in a way they didn't find from women. And I do think that female

friendships, teenagehood is, I mean, we spoke about it in the Eliza Clark episode, but it can be a really harrowing experience. And it can really shape and harden a person, I think. And while female friendships can be the most glorious things that ever exist, and there's so many jokes about the way that men just like, they, what do they talk about? Like, they don't seem to have this deep, entrenched love for each other that women do with all of that love, with all of that compassion with all of that kindness on the flip side of that there can be cruelty alienation bullying nastiness and I think that that is perhaps where some people just get really jaded about the idea of having friendship and so think well actually I can do a life without it I don't

really need it and I think we've got to be really careful of encouraging that because I really can understand when people are scarred and don't really know then how to make friendships as an adult. But I think it's really important, like from a health perspective, from a society's perspective that we do say to young women and men. And actually I should stop delineating it. I think this goes right back to what we talked about in the friendship part one episode. But I think that there does need to be a better spread of like intra-gendered friendships. I think that men would really benefit from having deep friendships with girls. I think girls really benefit from having friendship with boys. I think it's so interesting how when we talk about friendship

it. My mind does think of both genders having these separate friendships. And I think that is like part of the issue. And I wonder if that is changing or was changing prior to this like recent resurgence in sort of like real gender normativity and segregating what as a boy and what is a girl. But I think when we had that beautiful, blissful moment when everyone was sort of being very forward thinking, maybe that was changing. But I also see it in influencer spaces. And I think this might be because to be an influencer, you kind of do need a lot of time by yourself to film, to edit, to create content. You need to be probably in your house and you can plug hours and hours into it. And so it does seem to be that actually a lot of the women talking about not needing

female friendships or not having female friendships are people that exist very heavily in digital spaces. And again, it's the influence of that on younger women to think that maybe I can make a career filming myself doing my makeup in my room. That's all well and good. and fine, but it does, it does worry me because I think it seems okay. You have the facility of community because you've got people commenting on your YouTube videos, you've got women that you speak to online. But I think that later down the line, like in 10 years, 100 years, we will see a real impact of people not having true face-to-face community with each other.

I mean, we're already seeing it from the pandemic. And I also think the pandemic probably played a massive part on this. There were loads of people coming of age at their sort of like social butterfly moment where they were locked up in the house. And so I think that that is something that we can't ignore as well. But I think that as much as it kind of goes back to the bit we were talking about before actually, as much we want to be soft to women and say it's okay to have no friends. And like, do you know what she's doing what she wants to do? I also think we do have to go actually, guys, this is a bit of a problem right now.

We've got to make sure that people do have community, not just from like having fun point of view, but from a safety, from a solace, from just general health and well-being point-of-view, friendship is like a core necessity for a happy life, I think. On the men of it all, I do also worry that in a heterosexual coupling, because as we often see men do get into a relationship with women and then that is sort of his, that's kind of his therapist, his emotional support that is the inner circle and then a lot of his male friends will exist continue to exist but she's doing a lot of the labour to then as a woman give that up

I think there's really something not degrading but there's something in that that's like oh you are being subjugated and you don't even know it and I am always quite surprised when women do seem to be nourished by one single man because in my experience female friendships are the basis for like deep love affection and a lot of my female friends if they meet they might meet one man in a lifetime who approaches or is the same as or gives them the same that the women in their life give them and I think it's that said they're lucky they'll meet a partner that embodies all of the things that the women in their lives have been teaching them since they were a teenager and that is like the dream the soulmate man and I think

because of that, we then like arrange our relationships around this soulmate man instead of being like, OK, well, so much of what I discovered in him I already had from my female friends. So maybe the waiting should be more equal. I just find it very confusing. And I get it because I think men can be that and partners can be that. And what wonderful thing and what wonderful string in the bow. Then I can't imagine being like, and now I don't need any of you bitches any longer the door is closed. Maybe that is my own privilege of having such wonderful friends and now really wonderful partner that I'm like, God, I'm so rich. How do I keep a hold of all of this forever? These all have to work in tandem with one another so I can receive all of this

like abundance and joy. Maybe that is, maybe these are women who did experience, as you said, this darker side of female friendships, didn't get lucky with the friends that they were exposed to at school or in their early lives and then they find a man, they think you are the one that I can trust. We are a team of two, but it does seem to me, it's not an experience that I have. My experience is with women being the absolute pinnacle of one another's, like, soul, heart, the things that we do for each other. Yeah, I think everything you said is totally correct. And I've always had that approach as well. And I hate that I made the point at the beginning. that a lot of this is also talking about romantic relationships,

but really I want to send to friendship in this episode. But I'm also am going to make a point about romantic relationships. So one thing that was really relieving, about six years ago a friend said to me, they don't expect everything from their partner. And it was such a groundbreaking moment because I think nobody had articulated that to me before. And I think maybe I had a bit of an immature idea of a romantic relationship

just being everything and then your friends also being there. But I think even if a partner does that, which is amazing and they check every single box you have, wonderful, exceptional stuff. But I think taking the pressure off that and just having an inbuilt system of friendships that are really rich and I have people who are the people that I text the minute, you know, a new show is on that I know that they would love, or are the pop culture people

or I've got the people who are the deep chats people who are really, really astute and really emotionally intelligent and I have all sorts of different things going on with different people that it doesn't have to come from one source, it doesn't have to come from a partner. If they do that, it's amazing. But also the expectation is not there for them to fill every cup that I have in my life and I need filling.

What you said, it's so funny which I had the same realization because now it feels like so not groundbreaking but when someone says like you can't expect your partner to be everything it's and I know that we're saying like oh god we're talking about relationships within the context of a podcast about friendship but I do think that you really those two things can't not be spoken about together because I think that romantic relationships can actually be a massive hindrance or cause massive issues within friendships and one of the reasons being I think because of this idea where sometimes as friends we can judge our friends partners because we're like wait a minute but you love this and he loves that so you can't this doesn't make any sense and I think with age you start to realize that actually your friends partners might not necessarily make sense to you but if they're very happy with them you just have to be happy for them and take their word for it and you have to have I think like a Venn diagram with enough fundamentals in the middle and then outside of that it's probably quite healthy if one of you has an opposing hobby to the other if you have something that allows you to carve out your individual space and time from that relationship.

Although there obviously also are people who live together, work together, end up spending every waking moment of their day together could never be me. I'm absolutely not something that I could do. But that is everyone works differently. And I think that when you recognize also not just from your partners, but from your friends, not all of your friends are going to be the person that you call when you have a really stressful thing at work or they're not going to be the fan that you call when you need to get drunk at 2 in the morning because sometimes you need to do that. And I think that that's why

having community in just a small bunch of people is important, having access to not rely on someone because it's heavy on the person that you're relying on and it's heavy on you. You're only going to be disappointed and the person that you're turning to is only going to probably start to feel a bit drained and resentful of you constantly needing their time. And this is why building up little pockets of areas, different people, whether it's with your mum, my mum is the person I call about almost anything. And then you have all these different spaces. But yeah, that recognising that a partner does not have to be everything, but there are, I think there are certain things that you have to be really aligned on. And there are also always going to be things

as a friend that you might not contextually understand about your friends' relationships. And I've had to really work hard on recognising that. Because I think as friends, we can be really protective of our friends and feel like that person's not good enough for you or they don't do XYZ even though your friend is standing there in front of you being like I love them so much they make me really happy all I want to do is spend my time with them with your like going

but they don't like this one thing and so I think that it's all it's all part of I guess letting go letting be and then clocking in for the shift of sort of accountability when necessary but for the most part it's trust communication

and I think that's just comes with age. Well, speaking of friendship expectations and the different things that we get from romantic partners and platonic partners, there's been an incredible rise in viral stories on platonic marriages, especially from Australian Mediaorg Mamma Mia. These anecdotes are pulled onto our timelines and we adore reading them. One such story is Renee and April. So this is from Mamma Mia. When Renee packed up her entire life and moved across the world to be with April, everyone called it a romantic gesture, and in many ways it was, except April and Renee aren't lovers,

there's something else entirely, platonic life partners. When April moved to Los Angeles for university, that bond only deepened across the distance, quote, I don't think we were able to verbalise it or confirm it to each other until the new years of 2019 going into 2020, April told Mamma Mia. It was this romantic New Year's night, just the two of us. We hadn't seen each other the whole year and we spent like eight hours from midnight all the way till 8am walking around the Singapore River talking. Today, their partnership looks like any committed relationship, their financial partners, emergency contacts and each other's primary emotional support. They navigate the logistics of their shared life together without the pressure of keeping

romantic spark alive. The thing they say is important is their communication with one another. And April says, for Renee and I, it's like having a lot. your best friend and your sister and sometimes your mother too and then sometimes love her because we're so romantic for each other all in one person we just don't have sex we're not attracted to each other in that way and apparently the reactions they get which i can believe range from envy to confusion when they date they make new partners or protective partners understand that they are each other's number one priorities i mean depending on where you sit or depending on how partners you are this either reads like really aspirational really hopeful

or sort of like a nightmare. I don't know. I am so fascinated by this as someone who drunkenly has planned several lives with my best friends. What do you both think of this idea that it is just as valid to build a life platonically with a friend that you love as it is to seek romantic and sexual partnership with a single person? I fully believe that this shouldn't be any less than and I can fully buy into the idea that this is equal to a sexual a sexual relationship because they are deep

they are everything except the sex that's the only difference it seems like it is just like very fascinating though I have to say I could read so many of these stories I would want to read so many of these stories because I still think it is just something that I've not seen

IRL before and even bringing up Abby and Alana in part one And I guess they are Platonic Life Partners. The way they behave is probably the only insight I've seen into Platonic Life Partners because they live as if they are each other's number one, which is what this is. But yeah, I think I can imagine it challenges a lot of people's idea of what is a real relationship.

But I fully back this. I don't see why there's any other reason why it's not akin to somebody that you do everything that they do with except you also have sex. What do you think in Oni? Yeah, I fully believe. I actually think I could do this with Poppy. I think if Poppy and I never met anyone, we could happily buy a house together,

maybe like adopt a baby together, live a life quite fully as friends in a platonic way. And I think what's interesting, what kind of screws people up is the sex of it all, right? It's like the people aren't having sex. But really, when you look at long time love, and I've read lots of books about like the stages of love, you have lust, then you fall in love,

and then like later life it becomes companionship. It's a lot less about the sex. Like that latter part of your relationship is very much like you have a built-in best friend. So I guess it's just bypassing the sexual romance of it all and becoming that final end stage thing. I mean, I know that apparently all the eight-year-olds in the nursing homes are bonking each other. But there is something to be said that, you know, sex becomes less and less important as you get older and older. And I think that there is even, you know, thinking about like historically this existed with like lavender marriages and more and more you hear about women saying, do you know, actually I'm going to use my gay best friend as my sperm donor and we're going to have a baby together. I think there's all sorts of different ways that you can set up a life that can be fulfilling, happy and loving. And I think that sex is always, again, an important, beautiful means of creating connection. But I actually think it potentially would be, no, I I'm going to say this is my full chest.

I think you could live a better life with no sex filled with friendship than you could a life with no friendship but lots of sex. I don't know if you would agree with that. Yes, it's more than possible. And I'm fascinated whenever I see people doing this alternate way of family building and arranging a life because the idea that there's just one way and it's one way that people so often feel that they failed at because romantic relationships are they change people die,

people are abusive. What feels like long-term compatibility can often just be like flash in the pan, lust and limerence. And it's like you only have so many years in a life. You have enough years, but it's like if you're pursuing just one way of doing things, I can see why people do get burned out and think I'm a failure. Maybe it is just a case of reconfiguring. I think it's a very brave thing to do. I was reading a piece for The Atlantic by Raina Cohen called A Grand Experiment in Parenthood and Friendship, which is about two separate couples who I think the respect I think they're sort of best friends within that group between the men and the women and they after both having their own children realize they have no time for the four of them life is so stressful and so they sort of create their own village and they live together and raise children across the four which again it's not quite the same as this but it is a complete reimagining of what a family should look like and what works and they find that this does work it's not without challenges but it does work And I really, I find it fascinating.

I'm not necessarily one for relationship anarchy because I think the relationship anarchists that I've met have all been unnerving people who are using it as a way to avoid culpability. But true relationship anarchy or at least relationship disruption means looking at the world and where you think we can offer each other more. And I love the idea of people actually following through, not just drunkenly being like, if you and me don't find anyone, should we do this? like, I wonder if we should have a gorgeous commune and adopt loads of babies and have chickens. When people actually do it, I'm like, fuck, it's one of the few things in this crazy modern world that actually gives me quite a lot of hope. And it just seems really, really creative. And yeah, more power to them.

It's so funny because it's like the complete extreme from where we started with the friendship deep dive, which is like having the most responsibility for somebody who is your friend. and just like really going into the it's like it's like agreeing to do life together just like making that union together and it's so it's so beautiful isn't it it's just like you couldn't it sounds like you couldn't love a friend more than deciding to do something like this with and i also really enjoyed the elements that april and ren spoke about which is just like having the romance in their friendship because I think a few years ago, I kind of started using that language with friends. And it's a really nice way to look at it. It might not suit or sit right with,

you know, everyone. But I think I really, I really respond to that really well. I think it's a really nice concept to just do nice things for friends, to get them flowers, to just like kind of do more than turn up and to see that as also the way you pepper a romantic relationship with these acts of romance to just kind of show care and also to go a bit further than just being there and just being present. And, you know, you might not call it romance, but I think that is one way of looking at it. And I think it's just, it's kind of removing all the different boundaries from the language around friendship and kind of just making them merge with the special kind of magicness or the like reverence of romantic relationships and kind of blurring

those two things to just prove that you don't have to have you don't have to do the bare minimum for one camp and then do everything for the other camp you could do everything for everyone that you're capable of to show that you care and love them and I think it's I don't know even reading these stories it's a nice reminder that they're not two distinct labels they can just be one label they can be van diagrams they can just be whatever you want them to be you make it what you decide it to be with your friend

I think what I'm learning or what I'm thinking about in this episode is that friendship is really important and they think there's those one side of things where you can just think oh they're my they're my friends whatever they'll be there forever and then there's another side where you can over pathologize be like overly anxious

and I think as you get older as you learn to trust yourself I mean I don't know how old you are listening but if you are a bit younger. It does get better and it does get easier and there's no shame in really taking pride in your friendships and watering them and being intentional with them. And I think that's something that when I was younger, I just assumed that friendship would be thrust upon me and that I would just carry it around. And now it's like, actually, no, it's okay if you have to work at it and you have to figure it out. And it doesn't matter if you've got two friends or 25

friends. And I know on social media, it might look like everyone's constantly on holiday and And living the life of Riley and everyone loves them loads and are completely supported. But I guarantee every single person has had a rocky road, has had a friendship breakup, has gone through some kind of difficulty. But yeah, so I would just say to anyone listening, if you feel like you don't have enough friends, it's never too late to make friends. Some of my best friends I've met in later life. If you feel like your friendships aren't right, you can always work on them. I think it's kind of like the last taboo, really. We're a bit shy and a bit ashamed if we feel like our friendships.

don't fit the mould or aren't quite right. And I think that it's good to be honest about the fact that they can be difficult, the fact that they can be tumultuous, but ultimately they are very important and I would never give up on friendship. Thank you so much for listening. Remember, as well as these Friday episodes, you can also listen to us every single Wednesday, which is when we release everything in conversation and extra dive into a topic or discussion with all of your opinions included.

Please also follow us on Instagram. and Tip-Toc at Everything is Content Pod, which is where you can help us choose topics for our in-conversation episodes, DM us with your dilemmas or whatever you want to chat to us about, and just generally enjoy some extra content. And last thing, reviews and ratings are so helpful

for getting the podcast out there. We read every single one. We can assure you we read every single one. Treasure them all and love every single person for it. Thank you so much. See you next week. Bye. Bye.

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