Everything Is Content - Rivals, Respecting Liam Payne and Age Gaps 2.0

Episode Date: October 25, 2024

This week on the Podcast, Beth, Ruchira and Oenone discuss the devastating news that broke last week, that One Direction singer Liam Payne had died unexpectedly and tragically at the age of 31 in Argentina. We think most people have felt this is quite seismic, and wanted to look at how the coverage of this has seemed and felt so far, both in the papers and on social media. Is it time for there to be a reckoning with how we deal with celebrity death? You can skip to roughly 37 minutes if you want to skip this section.As a pop culture podcast we also had to cover this week's lighter stories, including the show of the moment we're all tuning in for, the BONKBUSTER that is Rivals. If you’re looking for a rollicking good romp in Rutshire, then look no further, Jilly Cooper’s 1988 novel has been adapted into a TV series, now streaming on Disney plus.And lastly, Daniel Felsenthal wrote a piece for The Guardian titled ‘I’m 33 and my husband is 77 - this is why I only sleep with older men”, is the age-gap discourse ever going to be put to bed?Penguin - Love in Exile by Shon FayeThe Guardian - The Apprentice The Guardian- Slow HorsesDazed - Liam Payne and our grim cultural obsession with celebrity deathsNew Statesman - Liam Payne was a victim of the pop pin-up machine NBC - 1D fans condemn online harassment of Maya Henry Cheryl Cole Instagram Telegraph - Rivals Review The Guardian - Rivals ReviewThe Guardian - I'm 33 and my husband is 77 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

i'm beth i'm richara and i'm anoni and this is everything is content the podcast that dives into the week's biggest and best pop culture stories we cover everything from film tv and tiktok you can trust us to be across everything with a crunchy crunchy croutons in your content soup this week on the podcast we're talking about the problematic fan behavior following us to be across everything. With the crunchy, crunchy croutons in your content soup. This week on the podcast, we're talking about the problematic fan behaviour following Liam Payne's tragic death, rivals and the new culture around age gap relationships. Follow us on Instagram at everythingiscontentpod and make sure you subscribe so you don't miss an episode. And please, please, please, I'm going to get this in early, please give us a five star review,

please. Before we dive into the episode, what have you both been loving this week? So I watched The Apprentice over the weekend, the new film that is like a biopic of Donald Trump. And I regretfully have to say that I actually really enjoyed it. Have you guys seen it? Do you know it? I've heard people talking great things about it, but I haven't actually, all I've heard is people talking about it. I haven't actually seen anything about it, didn't know it I've heard people talking great things about it but I haven't actually all

I've heard is people talking about it I haven't actually seen anything about it didn't know it's coming out I've just heard people being really enthusiastic about it I've I've never heard of it I I thought when you said this maybe you said it I don't know on Instagram or somewhere I thought you were just talking about the TV show I was like Richard I don't think that's even on I'm not interested I've heard of it and so I didn't look it up I'm so sorry so this is actually a whole separate thing I feel I feel like a fool tell us more you did you didn't reply to me and I was like oh I guess maybe she's taking like a political stand on this not to watch the film and I was like oh fun so no this is some good context for everyone thanks I'm glad to know that

you weren't just uh ignoring me or ghosting me on the chat but back to the film so essentially it's Sebastian Stan playing Donald Trump which is a insane transformation of this very good looking man into like a character that we see every day and they physically look so different before all of the prosthetics and makeup but he does it does such an amazing job of getting into the mannerisms of this man from like the lip movements and, you know, the kind of like the facial kind of tics that he has. By the end of the film, it is stunning the fact that you can watch it and just forget that somebody is playing Donald Trump. It is Donald Trump. And that is nuts, nuts to me. He did such a good job. And Jeremy Strong plays this character called Roy Cohn, which is essentially the person who takes Donald Trump under his wing and makes him the person that he is today, according to the filmmakers. They paint this narrative that

Donald Trump was this kind of sad figure wanting to build his hotel and Roy Cohn sees him. Roy Cohn is this hyper-masculine man, ironically, privately living his life as a gay man, but publicly this alpha, horrible, dogged kind of crook who bribes, who manipulates, who blackmails and essentially is like, the truth is what you make it. Deny, deny, deny. If somebody accuses you of something you've done, you can spin anything you want. And the film posits the fact that Donald Trump becomes Roy Cohn by the end. And the person you see in modern culture today had a choice to be somebody else potentially, but just went down this dark path and became this like terrible, awful human

because of all of these kind of influences around him. So, you know, kind of an interesting narrative. I'm sure a lot of people would have a problem with it and say a lot of narrativising has been put onto this story and you have no idea what is true and what is just like an interesting way of presenting it, but entertaining so good do we know if donald trump has watched this has reacted to this talk because it would be so like him to either really love this or to never stop talking about it i'm quite i'm quite i'm like looking at the pictures now of and they're like it actually is quite flattering sebastian stan dressed up with him like hard wank but not an impossible wank if you you know what I mean. Oh my God. Ew. Yeah, I don't want to think about that. But anyway,

so he definitely does know about the film because before it came out, I had read quite a few pieces that said that there was a massive campaign for him to like tank the film and stop it from coming out. And then for some reason, he just doesn't care. I think he's perceived the film to just have no real impact on his character but when you watch it you will be astounded because a lot of the things that they a lot of the things that they say I won't ruin it and they show him doing Donald Trump's a very litigious guy I'm surprised that he wouldn't sue the shit out of them they you know they show him doing some like real terrible illegal things in this film so yeah definitely watch it but what have you been loving this week Beth? So this week I have been watching a very under the radar nobody's heard of it tv show called Slow Horses

I've had Covid and so I have been like binging series after series I know that I'm about a thousand years late to this party and even about i would say about 10 people in our everything's content pod dms have said that i need to watch this so apologies i like in my mind i was like i'll get to it but it's probably not my thing i was such an idiot it is amazing so if anyone who hasn't watched it yet all seven of you i imagine um slow horses is a brit British spy thriller I don't know the genre I think it's a thriller I'm thrilled uh based on the Slough House novels by Mick Herron and it follows a group of MI5 agents who have been sent to Slough House which is a kind of MI5 purgatory a place for agents who have fucked up or made a mistake or a kind of aging out of

the job or have a kind of vice that makes them a liability they get the shit tasks they get crapped on and by everyone above them they're just bottom of the rung but still in the system if that makes sense and the newest guy there is river cartwright who is played by jack loudon e.g mr sir sharonan e.g they starred together in mary queen of scots i actually don't know what else i've seen him in but like you'll you'll know his face he plays this the grandson of a really well-respected agent he fucked up on training exercise and has been like relegated here his new boss is jackson lamb played by gary oldman one of my number one one of the first crushes i ever had was on gary oldman gorgeous man

yeah another one gorgeous man he plays in this he again is a hard wank in this he plays a farting swearing like properly gross old man so i don't he's not the heartthrob that he is and other things in this and he has like the most amazing one-liners in this like i said it was a thriller but it's also very very funny there's one bit where he's talking to the team and he's like he's really derisive of them but seems to care about them it's a really compelling dynamic he's like like, you people are so slow. Bringing you up to speed is like trying to explain Norway to a dog, which has not left my mind since. So many of these per episode. So funny, but it's also really exciting, really gripping. Properly like good British telly with good British cast. Oh, it's

so good. Quite violent, quite stressful. But I really, like I say, everyone will have watched this already. But if you are like me and you avoided it, now is your time. You are missing out for no good reason. I really want to watch Slow Horses. I've been meaning to watch it for so long,

but now I've become intimidated by how many series there are because I know I'm going to get addicted. How many are there? I think it's something I'm going to save maybe for the really wintry months when I'm maybe in the in between bit the perineum the gooch oh oh god what is the gooch again between Christmas between Christmas and New Year's Eve does anyone call it that like I've never heard that in my life. I will now. Well, it makes so much sense,

don't you think? I know, I get it. It's the area. I get what... Do you want to do what Gooch is for anyone who might not know what Gooch is? I'd love to hear you explain this.

Guys, no. Yes, please. The Gooch is the stretch of skin that bridges the gap between, well, depending on your anatomy, I guess, between your sex parts and your butthole. But I tell you what, maybe I will watch Slow Horses. I've heard great things.

But also, I haven't... It's a full series. Okay. Oh, why do I think there's so many more? That's doable. I mean, I say it's doable because I've done it in the last week. Well, I also want to watch the Apprentice film of Ruchira's suggestion because I've never watched The American Apprentice.

Do you think that you could watch a film like this about Alan Sugar? No, I don't know if Alan Sugar's life really, you know, would amount to a film. Is that really rude to say? I'm sorry if he's listening, but I don't know. What have you been loving and only? So I have been loving Love in Exile by Sean Fayey which i have received an early copy of because it's not out until the 6th of february but i would recommend that you pre-order it's great for authors and also i think that this memoir slash commentaries does slash examination on modern love is something that loads of our listeners will love pardon the pun i'm not that far in, but already I'm really enjoying the way that she is looking at how heteronormative coupledom in modern society is kind of at odds with how we view

romance, how we've taught to believe love is going to treat us and what it's going to be like. And it's really needed, I think. I feel like it's going to be a companion piece to Bell Hook's All About Love, who obviously she references as well. There's just something quite comforting in it, especially if you're someone who's dating or single. Again, I haven't got that far in. Obviously, Sean is also talking about her experience as a trans woman and dating, but it is also super relatable just in general, talking about feeling unworthy or unlovable or just generally not being able to fit in when it comes to the story of romance within your life and so I think I'm only a little way

in but I'm really excited to finish it and I think that loads of our listeners are gonna love it and so I think it's a good one to pre-order that sounds so good I am dripping with jealousy that you've got a pre-copy of it I mean Sean's writing is just so beautiful and so smart she's just so good at vulnerability relationships society politics weaving all of these kind of grand concepts and like seeing how they all weave together and I think yeah from what you've said and already being so excited for this book I cannot wait to read it so I have to admit I also got approved and it came at just the perfect time I was ill I'm going through like a breakup at the moment it's all very like loving but difficult but painful and then onto my doorstep was Love in Exile I have been just a fan

of Sean's forever exactly the same thoughts as you both I think her writing on love is so valuable and it's so loving but it also opens up like a new way of thinking both I think her writing on love is so valuable and it's so loving but it also opens up like a new way of thinking and I think that's what so many of us need is not just the same advice on how to like manage these like dire relationships but maybe a new way of thinking so I am also about four pages in actually you're probably further than me but I'm just like hanging on the words it feels like a real salve so normally I feel like a little bit like smug about getting like proof copies of books everyone wants but this time I was like no this is a lifeline and I'm hanging on to it I know I felt the same obviously yours is much more fresh than me but I I felt the same way and I just wanted to

read this is kind of on the blurb of the book but it says we ache for love but love eludes us out of this crisis comes so much of what it means to be human and I think that that is the the crux of it it's just really beautiful and yeah I think that everyone would love it. Richa you can borrow my copy. Thank you. So last week the news broke that One Direction singer Liam Payne had died unexpectedly and tragically at the age of just 31 in Argentina. I was awake and scrolling on Twitter when I saw the TMZ headline that had been posted just minutes before. And this was, we found out later, extremely close to the time of his actual passing, which is just terrible. So I was awake and watching in a kind of disbelieving shock as other news outlets reported the same, confirmed it, other users found out the news,

and as all kind of speculation began to grow about what happened and why. Now the internet really quickly came together in mourning. Lots of adults who had grown up in the 1D fandom found one another again and shared their sadness and grief for him and his loved ones. Statements were released by his 1D bandmates and friends and family, and these were met with love and support, but also with scrutiny from fans and commentators online. This death feels huge and whether you're a fan of his music or really knew much about him, I think most of us have felt this is quite seismic. He's someone who has been in the public eye since he was a teenager, who was famous for essentially half his whole lifetime. Now, we on the pod wanted to talk about this

because the way that the news has broken and the reaction of both the fans and the critics feels important impression in understanding where we are currently with fan and stan culture, internet behavior, and social media conduct in general, as well as it being, I think, for three millennial women, something really connected to our growing up One Direction. He's our age. He was born, I think, a couple of months after I was, which is really jarring to think of. And so we do want to talk about it. I will say, though, to assure anyone listening, what we won't talk about is the specifics of his passing. We won't speculate about what happened

or mention either any unsubstantiated rumors or reported details of the circumstances of his death but this is still understandably a really raw and upsetting topic for a lot of people so if you do want to skip this we'll pop a rough time code in the show notes that's the description of the episode so you can skip this and move on to the next section if you would rather not listen. So to start, I guess, this conversation, because us three haven't really talked about this since it happened, I wanted to ask how you found the media coverage and the social media reaction to this and the response since last week. Well, I woke up, I'd gone to bed really early that night and I woke up in the morning and I saw it on Twitter. And because there has been loads of discourse about

Liam Payne, just generally on the internet, I just thought it was kind of a hoax or not true. And eventually, you know, came across actual media reporting and I was just stunned in a way that I think happens with certain celebrities. I remember when Amy Winehouse passed, I felt so shocked and so devastated. That's something that still really stays with me. But I think what I couldn't quite wrap my head around was the immediacy of the reaction of people online, also platforms like TMZ, who you mentioned know, were posting pictures of Liam's body. And obviously these reports had come out and God knows, it seems unlikely that his family or anyone close to him would have been told before it was reported on. So it was such a weird experience to find this

out, see reports. And then immediately all I saw was I saw some jokes. I saw people demanding people comment. I then like out of curiosity went to look on the other band members pages and saw some of the most outrageous messages from fans demanding that they comment. I don't know if this is one of the most immediate reactions we've seen in current time when parasocial relationships as we've spoken about in previous episodes are probably at an all-time high it feels like this has accumulated in the most dastardly way where we're really seeing just how far people's perceptions of reality and the internet get warped I don't know how to close that thought. Yeah, I understand what you mean. I essentially found out about his death. I'd woken up, I hadn't seen before I went to sleep. And then my boyfriend

told me in the morning, and literally I just kept saying, you're joking. And I was like, this is a really weird joke. Why are you saying this thing to me? And he was like, I'm not joking. And that kind of, I guess, explains how I felt felt about it where it just felt like this inconceivable thing as soon as it was said it just felt like this person this cannot be true for some reason and I think it is I don't know it's his youth it is just the circumstances it's the build-up and we'll absolutely get into the build-up of you know the week's proceeding and the kind of discourse around him and his ex, Maya Henry. But it was so unbelievably tragic and so heartbreaking and distressing. And yeah, the online reaction just added to that. And this might sound mad, but I think in my head, I always had this concept that One Direction would get together and you

know in the near future we would see a reunion and it would change people's lives quite frankly because their fan base is so so passionate about them and it was also like the disillusionment of that concept that I had taken as fact in my heart and I hadn't even realized that I felt that way what about you Beth? I think it is it's the rush to make jokes of it that was so swift so it was within the hour I went through I was kind of refreshing the page like I was absolutely like I think I shocked myself being as stunned about this like I knew it's obviously just so upsetting but I wasn't a directioner I wasn't um in that fandom and so I but I was absolutely like could not look away from my phone and it was within the hour I would say that people

went from being surprised and shocked to already making jokes it was that quick that they were appearing and you know the timeline on x is you don't just see the people you follow no one I followed was making jokes but everyone out there on the wider web was going viral very quickly for making really cheap shots bad puns really like shock jock stuff and I was like oh it's already started and that was like people hadn't even slept on it I doubt it was the speed at which the internet went from hearing about something to wanting to capitalize on it in just the most cruel way and it it just made me feel very sick for society. It wasn't that anyone had time to just sit with it and build a nuanced take and feel sad and kind of go, wow, this is really big news. One of the most well-known boy band stars of our generation has died in really tragic circumstances. It was,

no, let's go straight for the gut on this and that just made me a really profoundly sad I agree I also I'm not I wasn't like a huge One Direction fan don't get me wrong I know every single one of their songs but I think what made it more jarring for me and I wonder if this is the same for you girls as well was the fact that so much of the discourse on the timeline have been about him so when the news happened he was so at the forefront of my consciousness anyway that I somehow felt dirty because I felt like I'd been so faced with him that it made it feel quite abrupt and quite upsetting and every friend that I've spoken to has been like it's just I think it is that generational thing I think that it's because he was our age the tragedy of it and then there's

so much complication from that like Ruchira said with his ex coming forward with certain stories and people perhaps not having the language to understand that there can be tragedy and there can be grief and that people still also could have done things which people might perceive as bad and that all of those things can coexist and that there is a way of communicating things but with a sense of perspective and respect from every angle respecting victims or people that had potentially come forward also respecting this massive loss of life. Also, there was quite a few X Factor stars that came forwards and wrote quite long pieces, Rebecca Ferguson and Katie Weissel. And they wrote basically about the experience being on X Factor and kind of, I guess, gave a bit more color towards perhaps what had led Liam

to maybe making some decisions decisions led him to addiction. So there was, it was just, there was so much there. And I felt like all of that, even before he passed was quite a lot to think about. So then, yeah, coupled them with these reactions and these jokes and people being like, taking the piss about how they'd like been the one to message the group chat. I don't know. I just, I found it just all so disconcerting and i do think that every everyone i've spoken to kind of keeps bringing it up every every single one of my girlfriends every time i see them i just can't stop thinking about it and i think it's going to be something that is going to shape how we feel about a lot of things it is that really big significant death of the biggest boy band of our generation yeah

yeah he is the first of a pop star or artist who came up as we were growing up and yeah you're right is our demographic so he feels like he feels he feels closer to us than say any of the previous kind of you know superstars who have tragically passed away it feels so much closer I think we have to talk about the Maya Henry aspect of it so Maya Henry was his ex she is a 23 year old model who dated him from 2018 to 2022 and in the weeks preceding his death shared some TikToks where she alleges that she was in an abusive relationship with him. So I know, you know, before his absolutely tragic death and his passing, it was something we spoke about that, you know, these TikToks have come

forward. And it's, yeah, it's a very distressing, I guess, situation preceding all of this. And it is just so, it's so difficult to talk about. So it's difficult to even conceive how people are trying to wade into this online in a limited amount of characters but in the wake of his death she has been getting you know a lot of fan reaction some abhorrent messages on her social saying that she caused his death she should you know feel horrendous it's her fault all that kind of stuff but I have to say as well fans have also been calling that out and saying that people need to stop doing that so it's a really it's a really sticky picture it's a really sticky picture. It's not black and white.

There are fans calling out, which I think is great. But that is a side to his death as well, where a woman who has spoken about her alleged experiences with him is now also facing just horrendous abuse as a result of parasocial relationships, I guess, and fans not wanting to hear it. Yeah, there's a really complicated web here, but some things are really simple, of parasocial relationships, I guess, and fans not wanting to hear it. Yeah, there's a really complicated web here, but some things are really simple,

which is that it is not a woman's fault. What follows allegations of abuse, we do have to encourage people to come forward and people will not come forward if we maintain this culture of silencing and hero worshipping and not allowing for nuance in a character, in a person's morality. And I thought it was brave at the time when I saw what she'd said, and I maintain that now. And I think when you love somebody, whether you worship them as

a celebrity, whether you know them in person, you do have to hold space for the fact that at some point in a life, they might massively disappoint you. I'm in the camp of people that believe people are redeemable, that I do believe in justice that holds space for people to rehabilitate themselves on their own time. And I think it is such a shame that in this case, there was no healing. There was just a foreshortened future on his part and for her, nothing but abuse. I don't think there was any winners here. And I do think, yeah, it absolutely speaks to the parasocial relationships that people are just doggedly harassing a young woman who has lost a former partner and is just at the center of like a media firestorm like i think people don't you know if we believe that's the circumstances that

have caused deaths of people in the past it doesn't make any sense to then turn that around on just you know it just is what makes more victims i think putting someone at the center of like a victim and villain to make her a villain does not absolve him it just perpetuates it just like I just think it's like more evil on the fire that makes sense this is I agree I think I always find this really confusing whenever there is and it something like this happens and the people who are grieving the fans the people that really feel bereft and I believe it is a real bereavement even if they're not someone that you've ever met. If you're a fan of someone, you know, that loss can feel really great. But then there seems to be, and like Ritu said, there are people

who are being very level-headed and very protective and, you know, trying to look at things from both sides in a positive way of action. But then all of those countless people who are devastated understandably by this loss descending upon like a young woman who has already come forward and done something really difficult and you just think what have we not learned here what what to what end is this useful and this is where i think people need to be maybe more fearful or understand more of their power that they have on the internet I don't mean in terms of coming forward I think that's great I mean when it's sort of like pointless nitpicking whether it's for likes whether it's for virality whether it's to stick a pin in someone that you feel deserves your vitriol that's so worrying because you might just

feel like you're one person but these like the millions of people saying these things it's so scary and i'm not talking about allegations at all i don't mean things like that i mean what we've seen in these pylons i do think it's the one of the most disgusting reactions i have ever seen and i don't know when we became so emotionally illiterate. The comments under Harry's, Niall's, Louis' and Zayn's posts or pages, sorry, before they post, which eventually they did, which even then I felt like how much have they, their posts are really heartfelt and lovely. But I was like, I was thinking about the parents having to give a statement and the day after the news broke, they released a statement and they said they were heartbroken.

And I was talking to one of my friends about it. And I was like, if I lost my child and a paper fucking rang me up and said, give a statement, I think I would tell them to fuck off. I think I would be furious. What is it? Why do we need a statement from someone that's just lost someone, especially in tragic circumstances, especially when it's's your child I don't think that anyone owes anyone anything if it takes you six months if it takes you a year I don't even understand that and that's like on a media level and that's become so normalized now you know asking for comment but when you've got fans commenting like why haven't you said anything within minutes hours and days I just think my god we need perhaps this is where in PSHE or like another sector of education another lesson there needs to be social media literacy emotional intelligence

which is just something about because it's not it's not right and I think it's actually quite dangerous the behavior is just so outrageous and so appalling on so many counts. It is so dehumanizing and it is so, it's just so heartless. And to not understand that people are grieving and to not hold space for the fact that this is a giant tragedy to you because you have a relationship with this person. But to be quite frank, it is not the same as people who know this person intimately, who have lived with this person, who have shared experiences in life with this person, to not understand that you are not owed something by these people. What can I say? Words don't even feel adequate enough to summarize why that is not an obvious difference and why you cannot behave in this way it's just it's insane to me one thing

that I have been thinking of and it follows that route and it's it's the just the invasion of this I think every stage of this has felt so dehumanizing so invasive and it was I saw a picture of his dad who'd flown out to I assume bring him home and just I just felt absolutely heartbroken for everyone in the situation the paparazzi are crowding around the fans in that case were trying to block him to kind of seems jeff to try and block jeff to kind of keep him from being photographed to keep this invasion at bay but of course it doesn't matter because the the forces you know that's where the money is and people follow the money and and it's it's been the same with his his girlfriend kate meyer again i don't think she's been pictured out but no doubt when she, the papers will use really guiding language like breaks cover all. But again, yeah, like you both say,

it's happening to his bandmates who are being trailed by the press and hounded by fans. It is never ending. It's so invasive. Nobody on earth can live like that. And I personally think, I always think about fame. As a kid, you think, God, it wouldn't be great. As an adult, I think, and he was my age, I think if I had been famous for the last 15 years, I would either not be here or I would be a husk of a person. I think it's not conditions under which anyone can thrive. And the fact that it's now he's died, it's sort of refracted off all of that glare

onto everyone who's ever known him. It is shattering. And I just, I think it's, especially when you think about, I was thinking about kind of pre-social media, what would happen when somebody died? And obviously the paparazzi have always been intrusive and terrible force. Princess Diana, James Greig actually wrote a great piece for Days and he talks about, he kind of makes parallels between Princess Diana's death, how there would have been photos of her but no newspaper would have published them and just you know you wouldn't have found out immediately you wouldn't have rushed to kind of perform your

opinion online you would have had at least a moment to sit with it and talk with your friends about it and it wouldn't have consumed everything the way that this has this news has felt all consuming because it's everywhere and it's yeah I can't imagine how it feels to be even remotely connected to him because even from where I'm sat no connection at all I think god it has made me profoundly depressed I honestly think there needs to be laws that if someone dies you can't report it to you can't report it in the papers unless you've told their emergency contacts their immediate family until that they have been there's been some process this idea that tnz had somehow bought images and found out this information within minutes of it happening i find absolutely sickening and the

one of the kind of celebrity death that always saves me is amy winehouse i actually think about all the time i was really really obsessed with her when I was younger. And then I just think now how her death is still being capitalized on, how there's still movies being made about it, how it's still this story. And obviously you have the 27 Club, which Amy Dydon and Kurt Cobain and all of these famous rock stars who were all people that were thrust into the limelight that maybe had proclivities toward addiction

or fame allowed them to become people that suffered from addiction and how much we still even if we pretend we don't romanticize or there's some parasitic relationship with that darkness that comes from fame and there's always been that kind of weird relationship there's always been books and stories and even the concept of the 27 Club. But watching this happening in real time with Liam Payne just shows how much everything has become so much faster. I really want this to change laws.

I think it was good that so many people were outraged by TMZ. But I just saw that when I was looking. It just came up on my timeline. And I just thought that is I was looking, it just came up on my timeline. And I just thought that is just absolutely beyond reproach. And you think about like the phone hacking scandal on how many times that the media have come under fire, Meghan Markle trying to sue the papers for publishing things. And you think, you think that something's going to change at some point, that at some point the media will be held to account. But as you said, Beth, it's following

the money. They know that they can get away with with it they know that people are going to share it they know that even people are sharing it out in an outrage way like we are now we're still fucking talking about it it's very distressing and I just I don't really know where we go from here but I hope that it does produce some change but I whether or not that will happen I don't know Cheryl's statement was the real kind of light for me on this and I really hope that people read it reread it close read it listen to it let the words fucking sink in where she says I'd kind I'd like to kindly remind everyone that we have lost a human being and she put he was not only a pop star and celebrity he was a son a brother an uncle a dear friend and a father

to our seven-year-old son a son that now has to face the reality of never seeing his father again what is troubling my spirit the most is that one day bear will have access to the abhorrent reports and media exploitation we have seen in the past two days it is breaking my heart further that i cannot protect him from that in his future and I think that really has to be that really has to be the message from this it's not just getting information as soon as you can it's it's a fucking family that have lost a person all of these stories will live on the internet forever and there is a person growing up in the world who will have access to this who is his son and you cannot you cannot change what

has happened, but how can we be okay with this? It's not okay. I think that is just an excellent point. And it's just, it's so tragic that the lessons are contained after the tragedy, as is always the case. We just hope that people learn them. But I think it's both the legality of it, what is allowed to happen societally, and also what we as individuals perpetuate in terms of our obsession with fame and the way that we hang on the word of just the most vile media sites. I think you'd hope that the tide is turning on places like TMZ. It seems to be. And I saw a few tweets get taken down, a few posts because they were community noted on Twitter. And that's the work of the fans making sure that misinformation and kind of disgusting information is shut down. But it does feel like trying to sweep back the

tide. It just feels like a force bigger than ourselves. And to close out, there is a great piece actually on this for the New Statesman by annie leskovitz called liam pain was a victim of the pop pinup machine which i thought was was really insightful and she writes this denial of dignity and death was the shameful conclusion of a poisonous type of fame uniquely suffered by pop stars and teen heartthrobs liam pain was dehumanized his entire life by the music industry machine that made him famous by tab tabloids, by social media, and even by his own fans. Being idolized is just as depersonalizing as being villainized. And it's stayed with me since I read it. And I think all fame at a certain level becomes obscuring. And in this age where especially so many young people want to become famous

via TikTok and their social media, I really worry about the machine that keeps allowing that to happen. And I hope this is some sort of watershed moment. If you have been affected by this, we hope that you are doing okay and sort of taking it easy. And if you have any thoughts on this topic and maybe how we can handle these kinds of tragedies and be more respectful and treat them with more nuance on social media and in the public eye, then we would love to hear from you at everything's content pod on Instagram. If you're looking for a rollicking good romp in Russia, then look no further. Jilly Cooper's 1988 novel Rival has been adapted into a TV series,

which is now streaming on disney plus it boasts an all-star cast including david tennant danny dyer aiden turner katherine parkinson emily atak to name a few and it is set in the fictional county of russia the eight-part series tells the story of a rivalry between ex-olympic rider and conservative MP Rupert Campbell-Black and TV station controller Lord Tony Baddingham. And they're both battling for control of the Carinium television station. And this is all set against the backdrop of the excess and antics of the power-grabbing social elite of the 1980s England. To my shame, I have never actually read any Jilly Cooper novels, but I have, of course, heard that they're steamy, horsey,

smutty, riotous and jolly good fun and that is exactly how I would describe this adaptation. It's got 95% on Rotten Tomatoes, The Guardian gave it five stars and I quote, packed with sex, excess and fabulous awfulness, this adaptation of Jilly Cooper's 80s bonk buster starts as gloriously as it means to go on. Champagne all round. And the Telegraph also bestowed it five stars saying, be warned, nudity abounds in this gleeful adaptation. Cooper's steamy novel has not been Disney-fied in the slightest. And the Daily Mail called it a bonk-a-thon. What did you guys think? Have you been watching? So I've only seen one episode, but I am absolutely hooked and I cannot wait to binge this. It was so good. And my theory is it feels like local village gossip, but with rich people. So

it's got property porn and it's just like, yeah, lots of sex. So it feels like gossipy and the stakes aren't super high and it's also like a bit bitchy and a bit cunty as well I'm really into it so I have watched the entire series surprise surprise I don't do anything else watch tv at the moment and I also haven't and I loved it but I also hadn't read any Chilly Cooper until now because smart I had to for the research I did get a second hand copy of the book that this is based on which I think is the second in a very long line she started writing these books in like the 1980s and the last or like the most recent one came out last year unbelievable so I bought it I flicked through it it is as warned the book i mean is quite outdated or at least like the characters are saying some racist classist homophobic stuff that doesn't make it into the tv series so it's

not the escapism that i wanted but i am going to read a little bit more because i do want to see i want to enter the jilly cooper verse because i really adored rivals so much so i will go there and and i do think people are quite apologetic when they say that they like jilly cooper millennials because it's problematic older women because it's like horny dirty i am just going to be a full explorer and like see how i get on but i loved it that's so interesting because in both the guardian piece and the telegraph piece that i, they both use the phrase undisnified. And in the Guardian piece, the writer says, I don't like to dwell on how much effort must have gone into judging how much of the 80s attitude could be retained without offending modern sensitivities and disposed of without ruining

the essences of the thing, but it has all paid off and what I thought was quite striking was I was wondering that undisnified idea is tv becoming slightly less self-conscious because it certainly doesn't shy away from including like like it says in that piece you know the realities of the 80s it's not perfect it's not super woke but it's done in a way that feels right I think it was done quite cleverly do you know what I mean so I have a question and if you could answer it without I guess ruining potential storylines but there is a character in it who is you know very high exec at the media company the broadcasting company and she's a black woman and I'm only on the first episode I've only got past it so you know I could be completely wrong

but it seems like there's not very much pushback to the fact that she's a black woman in this position so that was my immediate first like you know I'm happy to dive into this world, but this just is obviously not realistic. This is just not how the world would work back then. But is her race something that is treated appropriately, in your opinion, or is that still a continuation, do you think, where it's a bit fluffy and, you know, it's not really given the kind of time appropriate response it would have done in the 80s? I think's both i think they don't that they do mention it and she's aware and there are it kind of glances off the plot um but it doesn't it is not a realistic in the same way like it's all it all happens in a in the jilly cooper first all happens in a world that is not quite real and although they have gone some way into saying like

this you know i have to be this way because i'm a woman. I have to be this way. I'm single. I'm a Black American woman in the Cotswolds. They don't make much of it. And I assume that's to do with the Disneyfication of it and kind of avoiding that. But yeah, they don't really explore it but perhaps in her characterization it is communicating that actually she is she knows that she sort of has to be twice as good as every man at her job she has to be really hard-line she has to be really savvy i think it's communicated that way but it is not you know because it would have been outwardly racist it would have been like you know near impossible to thrive in a workplace that is just old landed gentry so it's it's it's a bit of both i i will be interested in hearing people's opinions on this and yours as you like get through

the series because i think it's quite an interesting blend that there is one scene that's like a dinner party that and there's a conversation which felt slightly anachronistic because it felt more like something someone would say today but they're talking about casting someone for a show and one of the men says she's single and she's black and she's a woman which is kind of like the way that we tokenize people for their marginalizations in more modern parlance and we would see that as like a really bad way of hiring someone i doubt i don't think in the 80s they were necessarily maybe they were but

that feels more like something we would find out that someone had said and she responds to that saying i was raised by a single black mother so there is like these certain nods to it it's not completely ignored as much as it's rompy and it's sexy it also doesn't shy away from looking at attitudes towards sex in that era and men potentially being quite forceful towards women and how they viewed those women that were forced upon that kind of happens like a bit later on I don't know I think it does quite a clever thing of towing the line I am interested like you Beth how people read it but it's rompy and it's fun. It's not obviously as blatant or as outdated as the books, but I think it doesn't completely gloss over the fact that it was a time that had very different moral standings from what we have

now. I think what you said about it being a Jilly Cooper novel, and I haven't read her work either, but it existing in a fluffier version of I guess reality is an important part of it because from my understanding it kind of reminds me of what I've understood to be Richard Osman's Thursday Murder Club is that the right is that the right name yeah yeah where it's like these very cozy kind of English settings. And I guess the point of the book isn't that the horrors of the real world enter in every page. It is just like the fluffy setting offsets the kind of ridiculous, you know, like murderous, like scandalous, like small village vibes that happen in them. So I guess this isn't a show I would look to for explorations of

racism. This is a different kind of show. That is really interesting that you said that though, because I had a similar idea and then I watched the whole show and then I started reading this book and there's an edge to it. Not that she's doing cutting critiques of class and gender and this and the other, But she creates a world in which class is very much a thing. Women are very much subjugated. Sex is everywhere and sexual politics and sexual dynamics are everywhere. So it's got a lot more to it. And I read a little bit about, I knew Jilly Cooper, you know, I knew she was sort of this erotic novel writing Tory. I sort of, she was in my, I was a bit fascinated by her, but just didn't think we'd get on if we

met at a party. But having read about her, she had quite a difficult upbringing. She talks about it really matter-of-factly, but she had a very suicidal mother who was depressed. And a lot of the maternal figures in Rivals do seem quite difficult and detached. And yeah, I was expecting a little bit more of kind of cozy lovemaking and eight episodes in, it's more like, it's intense. It's like, not just even heavy petting, it's rutting and romping. Oh my God, it is fucking to the nth degree, but you're so right. It is very much sexist power. The sex, every single time someone has sex, there is, there's something to it. It's not just lust. There's always these elements of gaining power,

losing power, one-upmanship. It is really interesting. Sex definitely in the show acts as a vehicle for more than just sort of like eroticism. I did also think it was interesting that the lead director is Elliot Hegarty, who directed loads of the first season of Ted Lasso. And there is, again, in that sort of whimsical, slightly rose-tinted, slightly parallel universe-y way. I feel like that feels like that carries. That makes sense to me that it's had a similar director as Ted Lasso, because I feel like the Ted Lasso carries. That makes sense to me that it's had a similar director as Ted Lasso because I feel like the Ted Lasso universe is also its own entity. Yeah, kind of like sex education, but I guess less overt

because sex education is just like a timeless world that makes no sense and everyone dresses in all these different ways, but is modern. Yeah, but that's such a good point though. It does exist in like, this is not a reality that we can access because you find yourself rooting for some quite nasty characters. And obviously, Ruchira, you've seen one episode,

so probably everyone at this point is a nasty character. But so interesting that they develop these characters in a way that you kind of can't help but root for them. And I'm rooting for, you know, a couple that, I think it's like a really young woman and a much older man. I'm rooting for a couple that I think it's like a really young woman and a much older man. I'm rooting for people to have affairs, things like that. Things that in the real world don't align with my moral compass. I'm going, it's got to be done. Sometimes the love of your life is married, or sometimes you could shag a 40-year-old Tory MP. All of these things,

because it exists in this world, we don't need to get too caught up in the the morality of it whereas if this was set anywhere else with a bit more realism I wouldn't be able to enjoy that because I would rightfully be horrified at those dynamics but it's just it's it's the bonk buster which is such a good term by the way I know I don't know where you found that or if you made that up but I need more bonk busters in my life that was that was from the daily mail but I do apparently that is how lots of people refer to her books. But I was thinking about this, about why is it doing so well? It is being reviewed fantastically across the board. Everyone's enjoying it. And I think it is what you were just saying, Beth, which is basically there is this safety in allowing yourself into the fantasy. With any fantasy, you're allowed to, well, you can fantasize about

whatever you want. There's no shame in it because it's all just a dream this is kind of what the show feels like I completely agree with you I am rooting for right at the beginning we kind of find out that one of the daughters one of the guys is being fancied by this much older man and I completely want that to happen even though if this was happening in reality and actually we're going to talk about age gap love in the next segment I would have very different views so i think what they've managed to do somehow is create something that in the modern parlance every single thing that is happening in every single episode is abhorrent goes against our ethics goes against our rules everyone be suing everyone a frightened center it'd be like defamation suing divorce somehow they've taken all of that and put it into this universe

that just makes it really joyful and i think it is something that's what i was asking i guess that question earlier about the self-consciousness of tv is sometimes i wonder if art has become because we live in such a politically tense time art is always in conversation with politics but it's happening so much though that sometimes you can't relax everything you've like I may destroy you and baby ranger it's like these things are so on the nose so in reality so embedded into the culture so triggering and traumatizing it's quite amazing to watch something that has somehow emancipated itself from that and you're sort of given the freedom to just be like just get on the ride and just enjoy it one thing I think is possibly the key to why it can get away

with it is it's kind of soapy from what I've seen and it's also quite camp so it doesn't feel lifelike at all it is kind of like it's quite theatrical whilst not going so far that it's ridiculous it just feels like everyone's kind of like just two marks off looking to camera and It's quite theatrical whilst not going so far that it's ridiculous. It just feels like everyone's kind of like just two marks off looking to camera and doing like a wink wink every scene. Which I think is like, it gives, it like injects it with like a lot of fun immediately. It's like prestige panto, but not quite that, but it has got a high camp element and uh to just i think it's it's it's swerved so neatly that trend of modern tv to be didactic to be like and here's the moral contained and it just is like and what's the next plot point what's the next point what are these characters doing so frenetic and on the soapy

thing a lot of people have been going oh i can't believe how good danny dyer is in this and you know to think he's like come from soaps and I think so frustrating for any like Danny Dyer head out there one soaps are excellent two Danny Dyer has been an excellent actor for such a long time but he shines in this he is like he gives me chills I absolutely love that man oh my god his character in this I just absolutely adore it's my favorite performance I've seen from him and I even think what I'm loving about this is we have I think oh my God, his character in this, I just absolutely adore. It's my favorite performance I've seen from him. And I even think what I'm loving about this is we have, I think, bemoaned on this podcast, kind of this whole thing of everyone just like remaking the same things. Like how many times are we going to remake Alice in Wonderland? Or I have seen there's a new

Pride and Prejudice adaptation coming out on Netflix, which I am quite excited about because it is Dolly Aldrich writing on it. But it's quite fun that it's stuff from the 80s now, which I've grown up knowing Julie Cooper's name, understanding that her books are kind of like this, never picked them up. I think it's something quite fun that we're looking to adapt these novels that have had such a big... I'm quite excited this version of adaptation is something I can really get behind. Them remaking everything, they're going to remake Harry Potter into a series like I really don't understand it's like it's just happened but this for me there's something so nice about it because it's far enough away that it is vintage but it's close enough that it's in my lived the world that I've lived in unlike Jane Austen or

something there's something I'm enjoying this sweet spot I think yeah yeah I agree it's like plowing for IP but like not doing a reboot and like finding these kind of like popular writers to kind of go back to their work that for some reason has been untouched and TV and film hasn't already mined I think that is that is the sweet spot you're right can I ask a question that has been dividing the timeline on Twitter which is about David Tennant's character I think it's like Lord Boddington or something the timeline's really divided over whether you want to bonk him or not it's people are like absolutely not he's a sleazy horrible character other people are going no he is a sleazy horrible character and I'm into it and I'm very

interested to hear if you're willing to share would you bonk or would you what's the opposite of bunk that rhymes with bunk would you bonk or would you I think I'm bonk I'm gonna be honest I'd plonk I'd plonk him on the head I want to bonk Declan O'Hara who is played by Aidan Turner who was in Poldark and I'd never watched Poldark and I always you see that picture of him shirtless with everyone swinging around I never got it maybe it could just it could just be the Irishness but so anyway I'd Declan O'Hara and Rupert from the first scene when you see full dong from Rupert oh my in the book he's described as having a cock like a baseball bat and well I'll say no more Rivals is available to stream on Disney+. Let us know your thoughts.

Do you want to bonk or plonk? And then just name the ones that you want to do that to. Okay, bye. Anoni beautifully teased this in the last segment, but I think we need to have an updated chat, conversation, argument, whatever you want to call it on age gap relationships last week the writer daniel fensenthal wrote a piece for the guardian titled i'm 33 and my husband is 77 this is why i only sleep with older men and despite the headline which i feel like could be potential rage bait the the response I saw was overwhelmingly positive. I think people were really supportive and just said that they were, you know, really moved by the piece and thought their relationship sounded beautiful. In it, Daniel talks about having

to come out twice, first as a gay man and secondly, as somebody who exclusively dates older men. He also says that he's essentially only really attracted to older men and he's never felt the same kind of attraction for men his own age. So he was 25 when he met his now husband, Jeff, who was 69 at the time. So quick maths, 44-year-old age gap at the time. So yeah, I think one of the biggest age gaps i've read of he writes intergenerational gay relationships are always scrutinized for being transactional acquisitive stereotypes cut both ways the younger partner worries about seeming conniving while the older partner fears being fed a line as if his significant other is dating the equivalent

of a phishing email my commitment to self-sufficiency was not what allowed Jeff and I to transcend these preconceptions. It was the strength of our attachment, the reality that we fell in love. Did you girls read the piece? And I would really actually love to know, did it shift any views you had? What's kind of the updated version of your views on age gap relationships? So I loved the piece. I thought it was so beautiful and so striking thank you so much for sharing that i was really pleased as as were you to see the reaction to him to him tweeting the piece anyway was really positive and really nice the reaction to when the guardian tweeted it was something different which is like i guess you expect it everything is going to get shit and this is

especially like it's basically like it was made in the lab to piss off like homophobes and idiots but was really nice to see that I think I read it as someone who my attitude to age gaps is two consenting adults of like you know people have been adults for at least a little while love who you love bonk who you want to bonk we can all take care of each other without being two consenting adults of like, you know, people have been adults for at least a little while, love who you love, bonk who you want to bonk, we can all take care of each other without being prudes about it, without being really puritanical about it. But I probably did have some lingering discomfort with age gaps from like my own puritanical feminist youth where I thought, you know, it's always, you know, sleazy old man, it's always this, this and that and the other. And I think it did a really good job of just clearing the cobwebs of that and just

reminding me that adults can fall in love in the most brilliant and diverse and interesting ways and holding onto a notion of like, you should only, you know, marry someone who's your age, your year at school is a really dull way to live. So I thought it was a breath of fresh air and I taught it. And Aine, what did you think? I completely agree with both of you as well. I thought it was an amazing piece of writing. I really enjoyed reading it. It gave me a lot of pause for thought actually, because questioning my own understandings of, I think a lot of my prejudices, or like you said, Beth, my kind of like puritanical feminist ideals around age gaps is actually I tend to apply it more frequently to heterosexual relationships than I do to especially like gay adult relationships I maybe have a walk

clearly warped idea that sometimes within gay relationships because they already exist outside the confines of what society has decided you're supposed to be doing especially when it comes to sex that actually there is more freedom in some ways. And so maybe I had this idea that there was less shame and less judgment in the gay community. And this is really interesting to read how much shame this young man felt in acknowledging his love for older men. But I'd also never read anyone write so explicitly that they were specifically attracted to older people. I've mostly read it as sort of an apologetic thing being like, you know, this is the first

time and then I fell in love and they just so happened to be really old and wrinkly. And it's kind of like a unique to that person, maybe more of like a pansexual approach where it's like, actually, I was just so drawn to this one individual person who happened to be a lot older than me I've never actually really read anyone writing that that yeah they're exclusively attracted to older people and there was one other bit in the piece that I wanted that I highlighted because I just thought it was so nicely written because there's also kind of an element to openness in their relationship and he says sometimes people mistake us for father and son which is not completely completely inaccurate although the question of who is the parent and who is the child is more complicated

than they might assume our relationship was able to blossom thanks to a mutual understanding that either us may begin a romance or move in with another person and regard the other as a beloved family member deserving of affection support comfort, comfort, and care. Love is not a contract, insurance policy, or a coerced promise. And this freedom ironically absolves us from the urge to depart each other's lives. Thinking again back to Love and Exile that I brought up at the top of the show, it's quite, some people might find that really difficult to read because it's like, how can you equate familial love with romantic love but in so many ways as love progresses and changes that companionship and that is similar and I just thought especially

talking about sort of like open relationships and and closed relationships and how much marriage fails and how much monogamy fails often because of the constraints of this idea of ownership how interesting it was to read that in fact by getting rid of all of those constraints and saying, actually, it's okay if this changes form, but we'll always still love each other, meant that they ended up staying together. That particular bit I thought was really beautiful. It really just feels like, I don't know, I feel like the image is like you're kind of walking through a field and then you let go of somebody's hand. And then rather than like walking away, they just keep choosing to like walk back to you and that just I don't know that fills me with so much joy and it feels really moving I also felt the same way I don't think I've ever heard from anyone who has a

specific attraction to older people it that was something that was really fascinating to me I've never I honestly I to my shame I'd never even considered that that could be something that, you know, could be quite common. I just had never thought about it. I also have quite like a pansexual approach to, I guess, my own relationships and I guess how I imagine people live their lives, which is just like, it really is about the person you meet. It's interesting, isn't it? And I think it is like, it really challenges our brain with this idea that you can be attracted to something. And then also this same inclination that we have societally, and I think is quite contemporary thing, which is questioning everything. So why are you attracted to that?

What in your past, what in your experiences has led you to be attracted to that? And this difficulty we have with and also you know is big part of like kink and all of that kind of conversation where we can allow ourselves to have attractions and not to dig too deep or sometimes do we have to dig into them and question is it a problem and I think we're still grappling with that societally of where we stand with it especially with age-react relationships and if you are somebody who really likes dating older men and you're a woman not having people question well you know what happened in your past or what in your experience leads you to that. I find it so frustrating actually as a woman in my 30s that even at this age and I got into this on

bloody Twitter because people were in response to the most recent episode of chicken shop date which came out last week with host emilian de moldenberg who is i believe 30 years old and andrew garfield who's 41 she interviewed him they have excellent chemistry it's you know they have been beloved by fans and fans really want them to get together it's just a really great pairing in terms of interviewer, interviewee, and they seem like they're friends. Speculation aside, people think they're dating, et cetera, but really, it doesn't matter. But a lot of people were being really funny about that as an age gap. And I was like, if a 30-year-old woman couldn't deign to... We can't imagine she could be in a

respectful, mutually loving, fair, decent relationship with someone who's 10, 20 years, just anyone. It really undermines the 30-year-old in that relationship. And in this case, Daniel got together with his husband when he was 29. And even that, we just, we, I think, condescend and we, what's it called when you make someone into a child, we infantilize, we do all of these things to adults in the name of protection and we don't protect anyone, we just heap shame on loving situations and it just really infuriated me. I think there's, on the one hand, it's treating adults like children, on the other hand, it's treating older people, elderly people people people in old age as

horrible old perverts so it just stigmatises a load of people and in the case of this relationship it just seems so loving and so beautiful so it's all done

it's just I just think it just injects shame into a situation that should never be there and a few things recently actually have made me think

a lot about ageism and one actually was The Substance which Ruchira you and I spoke about a couple of weeks ago which is a film like rooted in like our have made me think a lot about ageism. And one actually was The Substance, which Ruchira, you and I spoke about a couple of weeks ago, which is a film rooted in our disgust societally about old bodies. Another thing that made me think of it was Jimmy Carter, who's a former president of the United States, is 100 years old, has been in the news a couple of times lately, one, I think,

for turning 100, and two, for casting an early vote in the American election. And in news reports, people have attached his photo and the responses to that online have been horrible about like, it's just disgust at seeing an older body imagining aging, imagining, you know, anything that happens over age 50, just like pure revulsion. It speaks to just a widespread ageism that we have to get on top of because touch wood, we are all going to age. We're all going to exist in those bodies. We're all going to be people if we get married and have lifelong relationships or relationships later in life. We're going to be in relationships with old people. I think the disgust that starts young and probably takes a really long time to work out of a system. I don't know. I just find it really, I think it speaks to something bigger. I still though, I wonder had this piece been written when Daniel wasn't 33, when he says he

started recognising these proclivities at 24, would we be in that safeguarding mindset that Ruchira, you spoke of, that I do find myself worrying about? Would we be worrying? I think what's so interesting is it's because it's so directional from his side. He's so determined and so adamant that, you know, he is in love with these men who happen to be a lot older than him. But I do wonder again about the sexuality thing with gay men. I do I not feel and obviously there is always safeguarding with older men and much younger men that's always going to be an issue like you're not immune to something because of your sexuality but I do always seem to see it as slightly more sinister when it is a straight a much older straight man and a much younger straight

woman I also think I have complicated feelings around it because of this idea of the way that women in their 30s and above are viewed as less than. And so if you're looking at it as older men choosing much younger women, I think I find that quite uncomfortable. Perhaps that comes from my own insecurities around perhaps then not being viable myself. So there's loads of areas within age gaps where not only do I feel a sense of discomfort because I guess maybe I worry that at some point I'm not going to be chosen any longer and also then worry about the younger person are they actually I think what's interesting again about this piece as well sorry is the fact that he's picking people

that are so much older that it almost becomes like less uncomfortable than say like a 20 year old woman dating a 40 year old which i think i would find quite strange because those two ages seem more significant even though it's a smaller gap than the age that he's dealing with i think it's proximity to childhood is always something i will think of in age gap discourse which is why i think we've overcorrected maybe as a as a world in terms of talking about this we are having really valuable conversations about why people who are very fresh out of childhood should be safeguarded and why an adult a much older adult wanting to date them and being comfortable dating them may be a red flag for X, Y, Z. I think that makes sense. I think

as you enter your adulthood and as you arrive at 29, 30, 28, whatever it is, when you have experience of adulthood, at some point it's not safeguarding. At some point it is just you're allowed to date who you want and also you're allowed to make mistakes and also you're allowed to choose poorly because you have experience of living in the world and you are not one, two years out of childhood. I think that's where it is. And I think we've gone to a strange place where we're suddenly thinking, okay, we have to police attraction. It must always be rooted in trauma whereas actually the whole thing was just to make sure that women are allowed a start in life where they are not immediately preyed upon that and men as well that makes sense beyond that I think it has to be hands off yeah I agree I think you're completely right the overcorrection has gone way too far. But one thing I find quite

fascinating is I really feel like in this last year, like writers, filmmakers, TV makers, a part of a WhatsApp group where they've decided we need to address this issue big time in pop culture. Like, I mean, Intermezzo and the age gap relationship between Ivan and Margaret is something we spoke about in our Sally Rooney episode. Go listen to it. We spoke about the idea of you. There's the recent Lonely Planet on Netflix. There's Baby Girl with Nicole Kidman, which I am so excited to watch when it comes out. It is just like, if a pop culture has really decided that age gap relationships is the focus for this year, do you think that people are going to change their minds on it because of this culture or do you think it's kind of it's not really changing opinions when it comes to that

kind of revulsion towards big age gaps and especially when it's women who are older than the men they're dating you're so right god it's so in the zeitgeist isn't it i cannot wait to watch that baby girl film my god i've watched that trailer about 85 times. I can't stop watching it. Maybe it is because it's become taboo. As we know, taboo is always the most heightened, sexiest, fantastical thing that we can enter into. I guess it's the last taboo that's not illegal in some ways, but it's so close to the boundaries of what we're seeing as morally dubious in this current climate it's so you're so right about and we're like i know that we we mentioned in our group chat that like cruz beckham who's 19 is dating a 29 year old and there was a lot of you know fanfare about

sienna miller having a much younger partner we spoke about Aaron Taylor-Johnson Sam Taylor-Johnson there is what's so interesting is and for example in rivals like there was a time years ago when it was so normal and we saw it with Russell Brand for much older men to be dating much younger women sometimes girls no one cared it wasn't even spoken about then as you said this over corrections happened and now there's this tantalizing line between like where is it sexy actually where is it like on the bleeding edge of what's okay and you're right that must be why it's in every tv show and film and you know what i i am a bit puritanical about it but i cannot stop watching anything to do with it so same here i think me and i'm someone who has i think when i my biggest age gap in dating i think I was 29 and I went on a couple of dates with someone who was 49 or 50. And I was like, I'm so grown. Like it doesn't,

you know, it wasn't that I felt like I was the most mature I'd ever be, but I knew myself as someone who recognized the dynamics in place, had some very fun dates. And then I was the one that said, do you know what? This isn't a fit for whatever reason possibly relating to the age so i i find it very again fascinating because who knows it might impact and only we might roll in with you know six-year-olds husbands or wives we just don't know if there is an octogenarian listening with a fat load of cash i am i'm interested okay sorry back to your point there DMs are open at everything's content pod something I was thinking about in terms of age gaps in the zeitgeist was actually Fleabag in both series there's sort of she hints at having attraction to older people in the first series

and I re-watched this recently which is why I remember it in the first series when her boyfriend catches her watching porn and they've he wants them to only have their pleasure for each other disgusting he reads out the categories and it's like big cock teen milf big butts old slash young and i remember when this came out having conversations with my girlfriends about how unusual it is to have and she sleeps with an older man in that and in the second series she you know tries it on with the woman's best businesswoman, who is Kristen Scott Thomas, who is, I assume, in her 50s or 60s as the character. It's really interesting to have a young woman just have a really broad church of sexual attraction that includes priests, older men, older women, women and men her age, you know, sexuality is not bland and boring. It

actually is really expansive. And if we let it be, it's mostly no big deal. If we kind of like, safeguarding can just be like telling people what to look out for and then just letting them free into the world. That's how you have good sex. That's how you have interesting connections. That, in the case of this article, is how you meet your gorgeous, loving husband who is, you know, in his 60s and you're in your 20s. And I think the reason why the piece sits really well with us is because the younger person in the relationship has the voice, right? And in this conversation, we often just like take away the voices from the people in the relationship. They't speak to us which is why we can project all of our assumptions onto what kind of relationship they have so yeah completely

agree if you haven't read the piece I think we'd all highly highly recommend that you go read it it's really moving really beautiful and also I mean let us know if you change your mind on age gaps after reading it that would be really interesting drop us a dm on instagram thank you so so so much for listening to the podcast this week if you enjoyed the podcast and i have to say this has been one of my favorite episodes i would rate it five stars again but i already have and it won't let me do it again then you should rate it five stars and also please follow us on instagram at everything is content pod you'll see us chatting replying to dms we get back to as many people as we can and we would love to talk to you there see you next week bye you