Everything Is Content - The Classics, ICE Out Pins & Is Olivia Dean Being 'Woman'd'?

Episode Date: February 6, 2026

Happy Friday EICritics. It's a full house of hosts again at EIC headquarters, hallelujah! This week, we're wondering if little pins add up to big outcomes? And why the internet has suddenly turned on Olivia Dean.A lot went on at this year's Grammy’s which took place on Sunday night in LA. Kendrick Lamar won record of the year, Bad Bunny won album of the year and his reaction of disbelief and processing is already circulating as a meme, Olivia Dean was named as best new artist, and Billie Eilish won best song with Wildflower. But aside from the accolades, a big feature of this year’s ceremony- and something that’s been discussed a lot since- were the ICE Out pins that were worn by many attending - Kehlani, Billie Eilish and Finneas, both Justin and Harley Bieber, Joni Mitchell, plus a handful more. Should we be praising this, or questioning if celebrities scared to participate in true activism?Next up, in 2022, one of the internet's favourite culture writers Rayne Fisher-Quann coined a term when she tweeted, ‘Ottessa moshfegh is on the verge of getting woman'd | can feel it (woman'd is what I call it when everyone stops liking a woman at the same time)’, we ask, is this happening right now to Olivia Dean?Beth's been loving - Bridgerton Ruchira's been loving - Oh,Mary! , PerfectionOenone's been loving - The Count Of Monte Cristo2025 was ICE’s deadliest year in two decades. Here are the 32 people who died in custodyWhat the “Ice Out” Pins at the Grammys 2026 Meanthe one about whether celebrities should also be activistsDoes it matter when celebrities like Bad Bunny castigate Trump and ICE at the Grammys? You bet!Being ‘Woman’d’ Is Becoming A Depressing Inevitability For Us All Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm Beth. I'm Ruchera. And I'm Anoni. And this is Everything is Content, the podcast that shares the week's biggest pop culture stories. We cover everything from celeb gossip to award-winning cinema and terrible television. With a wax sealed securing the envelope of content. This week on the podcast, how far does celebrity activism actually go? And what does it mean to be, quote-unquote, woman.

Follow us on Instagram at Everything Is ContentPod. and make sure you hit follow on your podcast player so you never miss an episode. I'm very pleased to be back. I've missed you both and I very much enjoyed listening to you as a fan without being on the podcast. So before I ask you both,

what you've been loving, I have to say, I have really been loving the podcast. And whenever I'm not on it, I'm always like, oh, this is so much better without me. No. It always, I'm like,

damn, this is good. I think it flows better. Not at all. We left that recording, like, crawling. We were like, God is hard without. a no need so never leave us please guys i promise i won't don't kick me out okay what have you both been loving this week i feel like i've got a few and i don't know if any of them actually count one

i really hoped that i was going to come i'm in bel in the moment i really hoped i was going to come and be like i've been doing this this and this i haven't been here very long but i have basically left the hotel once because it's so cold it's not just it's cold it's so slippery here it's It's been snowing. It's been minus. I think it was minus nine when I arrived. It's minus four today, which I didn't know it could. I know it gets a lot cold in that, but I just wasn't, I was like, I never need to know about minus numbers. I live in the UK. It's going to be fine. I got here. Luckily I had all my little thermals on, but it's so cold. And because they don't allow de-icing salt on the pavements. They let allow it on the road for the cars. They don't allow on the pavement because of the trees. I'm looking at the window. I'm seeing people slipping and sliding. I think they must be tourists because apparently locals have those little knifey shoes. I don't have those little knifey shoes. I don't have those little knifey shoes. I've Marks and Spencer's trainers, which I just don't think are going to be correct. So I'm going to go out and have a little moot around today, but I probably will fall. You'll see me in the next time that we won a video call and I will have like no front teeth because I will have fallen on my face and ass. I'm so glad you've got thermals. Have you got the heat tech uniclo numbers?

They're not uniclo. I don't know what they are. They're really, really warm, but they are, they look ridiculous. I just look like, I feel like I look like a baby when I've got them on. I don't know why, like a baby in a onesie. It is, it's so much wrapping underneath clothes. I can see the baby analogy for sure. You can see the baby in me. So so far I'm not living the kind of cool German Berlin life that I thought I would. I mean, I've not moved to Berlin listeners.

I am actually just here on a trip. So I have been in the hotel working and watching Bridgeton, which I am enjoying. I'm not going to say that's what I've been loving, but I am watching and I am enjoying Bridgeton. Are you guys watching? We've got like four episodes so far. we watched them. I do not care about this iteration of it and I don't know why. I feel like with all the others, I was really compelled by the leads that they have and the storyline. But what I've been seeing about this is either I'm completely out of the loop with all of the hype or it feels

like it's just been a flatter release, a flatter storyline, just not as like hungry, horniness about it from the masses. So I'm not, I don't think I'm going to tune in for this one. What about you and only. I can't remember now if I watched the last series or the last series was so long ago, but basically if they leave too long between seasons, you just completely lose me. Like, I've just been like, that show's over for me. I see people talking about it and I think none of my business. I mean, I did love it when it first came out and I was very hooked, but yeah, I haven't really been engaging with it. I kind of feel like my Bridgeton time is over. Well, I guess the first season came out early. Was it 2021 or 2020? 2020. We're now on 2026. This is season four. So they are quite

it's a bit of a snail's pace. I mean, I feel the same. I think it's very formulaic. Like, if my phone rings when I'm watching Bridgeton, I'm not going to pause it. I'm going to go and take it. I'm going to go and make a stir-for-hion come back. And I don't necessarily think that's going to impact my own personal viewing of it. Not because it's not quality, but because I personally am not invested. This series has got a kind of Cinderella-esque approach. It's the oldest Bridgeton man. I want to say something like Benedict or something. He meets this girl at a masked ball. falls in love with like her lips in the third of her face. Can't find her because she is. The illegitimate daughter of some kind of Earl, he's dead, she's been inducted into the household as a housemaid. So she goes sort of illegally to this party and then he's trying to find her. So it's a story like a well-trodden story.

But I think I've realised what I'm bored of with Bridgeton. As much sex as there is in this, there aren't really, there's no slutty women. The lead characters, the female leads are all really virginal. A man falls in love with her. he stopped being rakish like men the male leads get to be really rakish and fun they're always in this setup they're always like being discovered in bed with like five different women and it's all fun and good whereas the women are just virgins and i find that boring actually i just want slutty female leads so i do think i don't know if i'm going to go back to this or i'm not going to

go back maybe next series i think this might have to be the last one for me do you think they're pumping out more because i do feel like it's a bit done and please don't come for me but i i think what you said about it being formulaic is part of the problem much like the whodunits where it's like we know what's coming and they just keep doing the same thing I'm kind of a bit over it yeah not to spoil because I don't know if either of you watched the night manager but the second series just pales so much in comparison to the first but they did something which was like almost a rehashing of something that happened in the first series and I was like whoa guys you've had 10 years like how are you doing this and they've also kind of set it up as if there might be another series and

I was like I think some things just should be left alone actually as excited as I was And British people are normally really, like British TV makers are normally really good at limited series, like eight perfect episodes or four perfect episodes and then we leave it alone. And it's maybe this Americanifying of TV where they're like, we can make a profit from this, churn out five more. And I just, I hate it. So what I've been liking is Bridgeton, but really, have I? What about you, Ritira? So, funnily enough, I just finished a book that is based in Berlin called Perfection by Vincenzo La Tronico. Have you both heard of this? Because it seems to be so buzzy. I, well, actually my partner got it for a Christmas present and it was, I think, Sunday Times top 10. It's this tiny, bright blue book looks really stylish and chic. And then from word of mouth, several people have told me about it. I've seen it and seen it rent about, but I've not actually gone so far as to find out what it's about, but it has passed me by on the interwebs. No, I've never heard of it. So it came out last year, I believe it was on the long list for the Booker Prize. And it is just kind of a searing take on millennialness. It starts, I believe 2016, somewhere around then. It's about two graphic designers who moved to Berlin. And at the beginning, their life is amazing. It's all hooking up, going to these sex parties, even though they don't necessarily get involved with it as part of this new wave of culture, art, music, making all of these expat friends. And then,

over the course of the next few years, it's the quick spiraling of political things happening that change their environment, but also this deeper than that, it's just this sense of malaise and this feeling that the dream that they were sold, the dream that they entered into, just as kind of nothing and meaningless and quite superficial, all the things, their cheese plants in their house, their, you know, beautiful prints on the wall, all of these kind of listed, superficial things just haven't brought them the joy that they thought it would. They keep moving to different cities, no joy to be found. And it's like so depressing and bleak, but I was like, my God, our generation has just been absolutely skewered. But it's almost like not in a way

that's laughing at. It's from within the call is coming from within the house. Somebody has understood what's wrong with a lot of these dreams we've set out with. And we just feel like they're incomplete. That's so interesting. I really want to read that now. And also there was a thing on Twitter the other day where someone put up a picture of like one of the rooms you're talking about with certain signifiers that was so cool at certain points in the millennial culture and then almost immediately they're dated and it's so funny like the trend cycles we've spoken about before we get barely any in time to enjoy anything before it becomes enough whereas like our parents generation would probably have the same kitchen bathroom whatever for at least a decade before

someone would be like oh that's a bit so I think we have suffered we're like the first ones to really suffer from time just moving on way too quickly from the things that we thought were cool. Yeah, my God. I think if you're ready to kind of look at all of the things that are wrong about our generation, I really recommend this book. It kind of feels like this is the age to read these books about emptiness because I do, I think my life is fuller in so many ways because I've made it fuller and the people are still there and whatever else.

But like my bank account's not fuller. My household is not fuller because I don't have children. Like all of these things that I'm like, yeah, maybe in the absence of the thing, the next step, I'm like, fuck, maybe I should move to Berlin, sort of live that depressing life. I'm halfway there. Maybe that's the answer. Maybe we should just keep moving to different cities. Don't read this book then because that is definitely not the answer in the book. And the other thing, the final thing I wanted to bring up is O'Mary. And I think we spoke about this on the podcast ages ago. And I said, Kola Skolters play that won a Tony in the US, we are so desperate

for it to come to the UK. Well, it's come to the UK. Well, it's come to the I watched it and I fucking loved it. It's so funny. I was creased up laughing. It's just so joyful. It's so magical. It's just so searing and like darkly comedic. I think you guys would love it. A friend went to see it a couple of weeks ago and I'm really desperate to go and sit in. How long is it running for? Do you know? I think it's at least for two more bans, maybe three, hopefully, but I don't think it's going anytime soon. Who is playing Mary Todd Lincoln in London? because I know it's kind of like the revolving cast. They've had so many amazing people do it.

I'm so jealous of this. This is the thing I've wanted. I actually saw quite a bad review of this. I read at the airport and kind of, I mean, I can't confirm what to deny, but I was like, this is the first bad review I've seen of this. It has been like rave, rave, raves. I was really surprised. So for the UK one, it's Mason Alexander Park,

who is so excellent. That's so interesting that you said the bad review because I was speaking to a friend about it. it who watched it and didn't rate it at all. All I've seen on the web and obviously from the US is just rave reviews. So I think it'll be interesting. Just if more people go, let me know what you think and you guys too because I just, I couldn't understand disliking it. I just came out and I was like, my God, the theatre. What a magical space. What about you and only? What have you been loving this week? Okay. So the thing that I've been loving and unfortunately

potentially might be loving for a little while longer because it is very long is the count of Montiotech. Christo, which is an 1844 adventure novel by Alexandra Dumas. And funny enough, Beth, because obviously I know it's going to be things have changed more recently than like 200, whatever years ago. But reading this book, I was like, God, our lives are so empty. These lot, they are up to shindigs. They're hanging out with each other. They're in the streets.

They know everyone's business. It's actually, genuinely, I think it's really high camp. So the plot is basically about this sailor called Edmund Dante, who is falsely accused of a crime that he didn't commit and subsequently imprisoned. and I'm not the best history buff, which is fun because this actually has lots of history in it. So I've been Googling as well, but it starts just before Napoleon's 100 Days return to power and then continues through the Bourbon Restoration and Into the reign of Louis Felipe. I can't explain to you how engrossing this book is. Like it doesn't make sense.

I think it kept coming up in my algorithm on X, people being like, you have to read the Cat of Montecristo. And I was like, fine. So I bought it. And then I did start reading it. And I was like, oh, you do have to read it. Like I barely come up for air the whole time there. it's drama, it's vengeance, it's treasure, its disguises. It's really high camp and it's really fun and dark.

And also an awful time to be alive as a woman, obviously, but also kind of sounds better than now. Not for women. Not for women. And also doing awful things. Oh, this sounds amazing. This sounds like so villainous. Is that the right word?

It sounds like lots of crazy shit going down. There's so much crazy shit. I've never, I can't believe how much happens. Like it's such a long book. It's like 1,200 pages. and there is not a single moment where they drop the ball. You are like, I'm going to stop at the next chapter and then you just can't stop.

It's so good. You put on your Instagram, like, I think you asked other people for like, what other classics. Did people get in touch with what you need to read next and do you have anything else that you can share? Because I am similarly, I'm ready to fill in my own gaps. I know, because no matter how much you think you've read of the classics,

you've actually read none of them. So I bought Warren P's to remember because that was when we first asked recording this podcast. I still haven't picked it up. But people did recommend Warren Peace and they said that you probably need a notebook because I think there's like 600 characters or something. And they've all got the same similar names,

haven't they? Yeah, so you really do have to pay attention. Anna Karenina, everyone said, very good, blown away. That was also on my list. East of Eden, Fahrenheit 4-5-1. I haven't read that, but I have read Catch-22, which they recommended. I've read Fahrenheit 4-5-1, and that is very good.

Is it? Yeah, they are. They do tend to be quite good, these classics, you forget. Turns out, they're pretty good. Turns out. Far from the madden crowd, Great's of Wrath, I read that at school, Tenant of Wildfell Hall.

I did get some DMs as well. Also, the other problem is I read some classics when I was younger, just kind of out of pretension and also just because they were on the syllabus, but didn't really understand them. So I went through a lot of my life and like, I've actually read that.

And realistically, I haven't. I know exactly what you mean. I also, I think because I was a bit of a swat at school, I would read all the classics, but I wouldn't understand the tone of them. So something like Pride and Prejudice, I think I read when I was like 14, 15, and I didn't realize it's comedic.

I took it so seriously. I took it as a love story, which it is, but it also is very, very funny. All of that went straight over my head. One I would recommend to everyone is Frankenstein. I mentioned this when I said, it's worth watching the film at the end of last year. I think Frankenstein really blew me away

and is a book that I want to reread this year. Yes, love Frankenstein. If anyone wants to with me within the next week, I'm going to have to pause the count because I quickly want to read Wuthering Heights before I see the film. Yes. Because I did, again, I read that when I was really young and I can't really remember what I thought about it. Like it had a massive impression on me, but I don't know what the impression was. So I'm going to reread that. And the other thing, this is not what I've been loving whatsoever, but the reason why I barely consumed anything is because I cannot explain to you how far down

the Epstein Files rabbit holes that I have gone. That I am having nightmares and I've read things that I can't ever unread. And I spent, I'm not joking, I think like 24 hours over the weekend, just reading. Because initially I was seeing things come up on my timeline. I was like, this is obviously just made up. And then I realized they were all linked back to the Department of Justice website. So then I was just on the Department of Justice website searching names and stuff. I just, there's not a while in which I couldn't bring this up because I, at the same time all of this happening, I sometimes just think about something I've read and think, I can't believe we're just supposed to carry on. Yeah, I completely agree. And I'm glad you said that because

that's the more honest take of what the week has been. On that note, I actually forgot, but I did want to recommend a Ryan Broderick Garbage Day piece. Ryan Broderick, Internet Culture correspondent, his newsletter Garbage Day I've brought up a few times before because it is really good. And it was about here's how Epstein broke the internet. And his particular insight and his way into it, which I hadn't read before, is just Epstein's connections to the founder of He's weaving into the internet culture that we have today, i.e., lots of these very right-wing Red Bill communities, there is traces and links back to the Epstein abuse. And I had no idea. It is just this multifaceted, almost like octopus level of control abuse interference in our

world today. And it just, it really shook me to the core. So yeah. So just to spin the wheel on something funny on the internet among like a backdrop of not funny things. I have been following this woman on TikTok called at What Up, it's Han. She's basically ordered herself this leopard print vanity like a set, like an armchair matching table with a mirror and a drawoff like doing all her makeup and stuff. And the picture shows something like a really nice piece of furniture that she's ordered for $25. And she knows that she has very likely been scammed in some way because it's an item of furniture that is on sale that's worth like four, three or four figures, but she saw it at this price, has wanted to roll the dice and just be like, to see if it's a scam, see what shows

up. The video has got like 3.5 or like 4.5 million views at the moment and people, including me, are really invested in finding out what, if anything, arrives. I think she's got tracking information and someone in her comments was like, okay, the way that they've sent this, the maximum it can weigh it's like 13 ounces. She's like fantastic. Love that for me. Nothing has arrived yet. maybe by the time this episode airs, she will have got something. I'm following on. I find it so funny. As much as I hate these scammie, like, Timo adjacent retailers, I do have a soft spot for

these stories where people like, here's what I ordered, here's what arrived. Like the woman, do you remember, she ordered herself like a full sofa set. And when it turned up, it was tiny. It was like a dog sofa and there's this bitch of her sitting on it, like really miserable, really funny. And this, I mean, what is interesting about this? This woman has gained from this one video, I think 80,000. followers across TikTok and Instagram. And Instagram, I think it's really difficult to get any followers

there. TikTok gets a lot easier to go viral and get the followers. She's got like 40,000 new followers on Instagram just for ordering a most likely fake piece of furniture. And it just got me thinking about all of these stories of consumers who buy, like when people order like a gorgeous dress or something and it arrives and it's actually just a shit bit of stretchy fabric with like embellishments printed on, that always makes me die. they're my worst ones and people are like, I've ordered this beautiful dress

for my Christmas party and it looks like a really elaborate sort of like elf costume that you would see in a cartoon for 10p or something and then obviously arrives and it's just like

printed on the front I find that really funny. I can't remember what it was but I definitely once ordered something without reading the measurements thought it was really good value and then it was much, much smaller than the intended purpose of the thing

but I don't know what that was but I remember that actually being my fault because it was just smaller than I realized. I just, hadn't read the small print. Like for a baby? I don't know if it was like a mirror or something, but I thought in my head it was like really big and then it was like the size of a wallet. Like doll furniture. But basically what I wanted to do is call out listeners and say if you have any of

these stories, please either DM us comment or put it in the little Spotify comments because I was dying laughing, one at this woman and all the comments because people are routinely getting scammed. I remember someone I know. Oh, it was my brother. He ordered a pair of shoes and then they arrived and they were for a baby. And I think in the end, like, it cost him more money to send them back. So we just had these baby creepers. And I think we should all know where are. I think we should all be like a slightly wiser about manufacturing and stuff. But unfortunately, it will never not tickle me when people order something. And it turns out absolutely shit. So a lot went on this year's Grammys, which took place on Sunday night in LA. Kendrick Lamar won record of the

year, Bad Bunny, one album of the year. And his reaction of disbelief and processing is already circulating as a meme, Olivia Dean, who we will discuss shortly, was named as best new artist, and Billy Eilish won best song with Wildflower. Aside from the awards, a big feature of this year's ceremony and something that has been discussed a lot since, were the ice outpins that were worn by many attending. So Kalani, Billy Elish and Phineas, both Justin and Haley Beaver, Joni Mitchell, plus a handful more, were wearing these. And according to a press release that was circulated to journalists ahead of the Golden Globes last month, the pins are part of an ACLU-endors campaign organized by a coalition of entertainment industry professionals.

So ICE, just as a refresher, stands for immigration and customs enforcement and was created in the US as part of the Homeland Security Act of 2002 following the September 11 attacks. And there are, and always have been, a lot of concerns of illegality and heavy-handedness with ICE. So since President Trump returned to office in January 2025, thousands of arrests have been made by ICE. 32 people died in ICE custody last year and eight have died dealing with ICE already this year. And thousands and thousands of Americans are noting a ramping up of violence, community, interference and brutality. And understandably, they want ice out of their communities, which was the sentiment echoed at the Grammys. So in his acceptance speech, Bad Bunny said, ice out, adding, we're not savage, we're not animals, we're not aliens. We are humans and we are Americans.

Billy Eilish said, no one is illegal on stolen land, fuck ice. Olivia Dean said in her acceptance speech, I'm up here as a granddaughter of an immigrant. I'm a product of bravery and I think those people deserve to be celebrated. And in her speech, Kalani also encouraged everyone in the community to stand against what's going on and concluded, fuck ice. An inner piece published earlier this week titled, Does it Matter when celebrities like Bad Bunny cast to gay ice at the Grammys,

Jason Okendaya mulls over the role of celebrities in speaking out. and he writes, Why should any of us care about what celebrities have to say? Cynicism is warranted, considering how American spectacle has functioned more as a redirection of interest away from atrocity rather than a tool for politicisation. Consider the raffa airstrikes two years ago in Gaza,

which occurred as millions of Americans celebrated the Super Bowl, which had run ads from the Israeli government. Yet in spite of this, celebrity voices against ICE feel important. The terror inflicted by ICE is a far more visceral subject than an election campaign. Ice's expansion to, has outpaced mechanisms to check its power, making all forms of resistance more urgent.

It is not necessarily that anti-ice activists need Hollywood seal of approval, but Trump evidently does. He recognises the art and culture are crucial frontiers in his bid for domination. And it's a really characteristically great piece by Jason, which we will link, of course, in the show notes. And it might be the cynic in me. I feel like even though the world has gotten progressively less progressive

in recent years, these celebrity displays are increasingly rare and that's really what I wanted to discuss with you both this changing face of celebrity activism and what we think the role of famous elites is and should be when it is something like this, something is vitally important as militarised immigration enforcement and people dying and communities and families being divided

which is literally happening currently across America and it is such a big and tricky conversation So maybe better to start by looking back. Do you remember, and I'm sure we talked about this, but the kind of 2010's Celebrity Awakening when it was genuinely cool to care and why does it feel like it has been a million years since so many celebrities were just unafraid to be like,

I'm political, I care about this, I'm going to be at the march, I'm going to share this petition. Has this brand of celebrity vanished? And if so, where have they gone? I absolutely love the piece that you shared with us, the substack from Lucy. of shit you should care about titled The One About Whether Celebrities Should Also Be Activist.

We'll link it in the show notes. Everyone should absolutely read it because it goes through what I kind of go through in my mind which is I find especially to do with ICE it's almost unfathomable for people not to speak about it. I wouldn't even count it as activism. It's just like how can you watch this going on in your country and not make comment on it.

I think that we use the term activism too lightly. I think that the things that we're expecting or wearing a pin like there's certain ways of saying things that activism and other times it's just like, how can you not address the elephant in this room when you have so much power? And she kind of outlines in the piece the ways in which it is difficult because obviously you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't. I think a lot of celebrities have got burn in the past. And she talks about this. You know, the more you speak up, the more people

expect you to speak up, the more you can get it wrong because people want you to be sort of like perfect. And I do think that that does exist. And I do think that some celebrities have been about themselves. Others are probably being encouraged by PRs to not speak out, to not, you know, ruin their reputation or to lose substantial amounts to their audience. She does speak specifically about Taylor Swift in the way that she's a massive Swifty, but cannot fathom how Taylor Swift, who at one point in time was very vocal about Trump, has since said nothing at this current moment in time. So I think I've got really complicated feelings around it because it feels so simple. I then can understand and have experienced the difficulty of kind of, kind of,

getting things wrong, saying the wrong thing, feeling individually personally kind of pissed off because you're like, well, I'm trying my best. So I get that. But right now, everything feels so urgent, so pressing and so unbelievable. Like reading the news, it's like living through a horror film. It's worse than Black Mirror. I don't even know. So I think that we should expect this of our celebrities, but then I also do see the other side of it. It's so interesting that you bring up the 2010s of optimism, this feeling of people. posting, even maybe try comments on their Instagram, but it felt like speaking out was cool. And I think there's this feeling now that it's much rarer to hear and see your faves saying something,

which is why it's such a big deal when they do. I just keep thinking about Jennifer Lawrence when she was asked about, I can't even remember what the question was, but it was, I believe, some kind of press interview for Die My Love. And somebody asked her about the world we're living in now, what do you feel about it? something like that. And she said, I feel very sad for my children because of the normalization of violence. There is violence happening in Gaza and it makes me very sad to my soul that my children will grow up in a world where they see that that is normal because it is not normal. It is so beyond normal. It's abnormal. And she was like, that's what we're telling this new generation of children.

And I was just like, well, yeah, that's what I'm feeling too. And my God, it just feels like, okay, you're a human. You're a human like me. You're seeing and feeling what I do too. And I've been so used to just feeling like celebrities are so abnormal. They are aliens. They just speak in these bizarre ways, these very trite ways that say nothing about nothing. They do these fun projects. I get involved with it, but it just makes me irritated. And it just kind of subdues the irritation when I hear somebody speak like a normal person. And I think that for me is the point of celebrities speaking out. I don't necessarily know whether I think that things will change because they speak out. I have hope that they can, but even the influence they have is a big deal. But on a real just kind of human level,

it makes me think, okay, these are human beings. They're not just these people who've like lost ground on the same, you know, ground that we're all walking on, seeing the same news stories, the same things that we're all seeing. And it just feels nice to be like, okay, we can talk like people. We don't have to talk like PR statements all the time. So I do really appreciate it. I appreciate it when people like Chapel Rowan stick a neck out and she gets. a lot of shit for what she does. But I'm glad that she tries and I'm glad she tries and puts her hands up when she doesn't. Always get it right. And I completely agree with you and only everything you said about ICE. This in particular, it is a live issue. It's unfolding. It is going

on. People have died because of it. Bad Bunny speaking out, it makes my heart hurt because, you know, it is largely his community that is being affected by this. So it must be so bizarre getting a prize, speaking out, being grateful, but also at the same time just being like the country. I'm this prize in is actively hurting my community. I don't know what you do with that. That is so wild to comprehend. So I don't really have an answer about it. What I'm trying to say, I guess, is it means a lot to me when people do speak out about it because I know it's not easy, but I would prefer they try. Yeah. And we discussed in an episode last year, I think it was Selena Gomez, who was crying on camera for this reason talking about this anti-immigrant sentiment.

It is very personal to her. And it was a case of a celebrity being useful, attempting to be useful, spread awareness and do something that would actually have an impact. And people were really sneering at her, one for being her, but also, you know, she was crying. She was very emotional. People just couldn't connect. And I think why people are very leery of celebrities in general is because we have to remember that there's a lot of class alignment, there's a lot of class solidarity that automatically means that our issues are not their issues.

So it's why you will see these politicians that claim to be so divided, then you'll see them at, you know, a state funeral or an event and their. kind of politicking with each other, they can laugh with one another because their issues are not our issues and it's keeping that in mind. I think so often when ordinary people say, oh, you know, I'm not really political. What they mean is I don't, you know, I'm not really interested in party politics or I don't necessarily feel very informed. I don't feel represented and I don't really know how my democracy works or how my political system functions. But actually, because they are ordinary people, they are political because they do care if their bins aren't collected. They do care if they are

driving over the same pot hole every day, if they can't get an appointment with a GP, all of these things. Like basically the distribution of their taxes, they care about that. And that is political because it's about how we live. Whereas when a celebrity says, well, I'm not political and tries to opt out, I think often we're kind of gentler on them because then at least they haven't said the wrong thing. But that really rubs me the wrong way. And I do almost insist that they care about something because I suppose what they mean when they say like, well, I'm not political. I'm not really getting involved. And their choir is it doesn't affect me. And it's not all famous people. Because as you've said, these are examples of famous people with you'd imagine

quite a net worth, a net worth that's growing and fame that's growing that are still impacted because of their identity by the injustices. But there are so many people that are just so guarded on every and so protected on every single side that really they mean, oh, I'm not political. I can pay my way out of anything. These are not my issues. My class solidarity is with other very rich people. And so I'm really skeptical. I mean, it's a really, it's a you can't win with me. It's like I'm really skeptical when they do speak and I'm really skeptical when they don't. And so I think we've arrived at a place where we've placed too much stock in celebrities. We've made them too powerful. We made them modern gods. That is the thing that has to change. And then, I mean, what I want from

famous people is that money essentially, not personally, but for the causes. Put your money where your mouth is, yeah. Going back to what you said about them, like saying they're not political, really reminding me of this recent interview with Sydney Sweeney and Cosmopolitan, where she said, I've never been here to talk about politics, I've always been here to make art, this is just not a conversation, I want to be at the forefront of in relation to her being called like Maga Barbie and her not necessarily speaking up about the American Eagle ad as it was unfolding. Interestingly, a lot of the comments, and this is a bit convoluted because I guess she doesn't necessarily have to, you know, care about what she's making. But one of her first roles was in

the Handmaid's Tale. So, like, she does. interact in her art with politics. And like you said, Beth, I think people sometimes conflate what is political. I mean, everything is inherently political. Being a woman in today's society is political. Her decisions around coming out with the underwear brand, you know, is political. And I think that people do envision, I don't really know how in this day and age, people do think that, but they are able to believe that politics is one thing and that is for the politicians, as we've seen, and perhaps I should be the best example, we cannot trust our politicians or people in power to be making the best political decisions for us.

And it does feel like now that things have kind of strayed outside the confines of what we used to think were the law, same with the Epstein files, we're seeing very powerful people doing absolutely heinous things and to very little repercussion. It does start to very much feel like it is in the hands of the public and of the people in positions of power outside of politics who might be able to kind of turn the tide on whatever it is this era that we're living through right now. Now, to go back to I loved the substack on the shit you should care about, it is interesting to think, you know, do we have to expect that celebrities have to be political for us when all they're doing is making art? Can they be political through the things they're saying in the art? A lot of them are in the essence of their music. Bad Maddie's music is inherently political, as you pointed out, Ritura. And Olivia Dean has things throughout higher lyricism as well. But like you said, Beth, it is about the money. If we're choosing to make someone famous, if we are voting with our wallets, if we're streaming their music, if we are giving them the standard

of living that puts them in a completely separate echelon from 90% of the world, then I do think that we do have a stake in the game or at least the right to say, actually, I don't want to listen to music, I don't want to engage with you, I don't want to give you this world of riches if you're not also going to represent the people that are supporting you and propping you up. Yeah, I think that's where I was land with it as well. I mean, in some ways, voting with your wallet is unhelpful, i.e. I'm thinking about, you know, when it comes to climate change, there really does have to be a top-down approach from all the companies that are essentially fucking with the environment on a mass scale. Yes, we can buy,

you know, recycled toilet paper. That's great. But really, we need that help from above. And we are encouraged. We are, you know, tricked into thinking that we're the difference when really it's all of those fucking companies, hashtag Amazon. But I think it's, In this regard, celebrity is about where we're putting our money. They are in those environments because we are buying their records. We're going to the cinema. We are keeping that industry alive. So I do think it is important.

The other thing I was going to say is with the 2010s, I wonder, and this is a really cynical point of view, I wonder if all the pussy hats, the, you know, fuck off Trump, all that kind of stuff. It was an easy cause for a lot of people because it wasn't about class solidarity. ICE is really about, you know, challenging a lot of beliefs about class that. that maybe many people don't imagine that they could be in that position because they're nice Americans, you know, they're not in the position of maybe being a problem to ICE, but obviously the recent deaths have proven that's not the case.

Two white Americans were victims of ICE. So I think if that is the case, they are showing you that, you know, whoever you are, this is not necessarily about brown people, this is not necessarily just about black people, this is not necessarily about lower income class people. this is an issue that is going to affect every single person and whether you like it or not. So that's one thing I'm wondering about the difference between the 2010s and now and whether people are slow to the uptake of realizing these issues affect all of us. And we have to, we have to cross boundaries with all of our identities. And that can't just be easy gridposts.

That has to be, you know, these live political events that are destabilizing that country. With the Jason piece that you mentioned, I read it to and I thought it was amazing. One thing it made me think about is the arts is this last frontier that Trump is trying to destabilize. We saw it with Jimmy Kimmel and, you know, that show going cold and Jimmy Kimmel being taken off the air for saying something about the Charlie Kirk murder. We're seeing with TikTok the takeover, it being kind of nationalized and we don't know what that means yet. And just this week, I saw that Trump is taking down the Kennedy Center and closing it for two years and is going to kind of recreate it in the image that he wants it to be. there is a war on culture. So seeing something like the Grammys

where all of these people are almost like barricading it from Trump, they're visibly audibly saying, this is our fucking space we will speak how we want. Feels really powerful to me because the arts, you think of it, apart from the Sydney-Sweeney point, which is an excellent point, and I think why people get so affronted by her. So many artists, so many films are left-wing.

They are progressive, they have a utopia, vision in mind, it's so sacred. The right wing, for the most part, I know this is a general statement. They don't make fucking good art. is often a left-wing pursuit. So I think retaining that barricade, making it feel like you can't get this, we are protecting this, does feel special to me. I mean, we've seen the rollout of Melania Trump's film, Melania, which has been catastrophic in terms of proper reviews. I mean,

her fans love it. And if you listen to anyone who is Maga Hat, they will tell you it's just the most fantastic film. But this is it. They cannot succeed in culture. And so it is this destabilizing. is picking a part of the so-called leftist agenda in Hollywood. And I think even from a self-interested point of view, to be a famous person, to be a person that wants to make money from starring in films that wants Hollywood to thrive so you yourself can get another helipad, whatever it is. Like you kind of do then automatically need to align with the left, or at least with the preservation of the status quo prior to Trump

and this sort of unpicking and just taking a part of culture as we know it. Like I think a lot of celebrities like be self-interested, I don't care, but do speak out, do something, do, you can actually, without being too political, you can come out in defence of the arts. You can put your money where your mouth is. It doesn't, you don't need, in fact, to even put the ice out pin. I do think it's, I think it's the kind of bare minimum stuff, which is why you can praise, you can say, do you know what? I think Haley Bieber and Justin Bieber both talked in the past about growing up in not the most liberal households. And I don't know about Hayley Bieber's relationship with her dad, Stephen Baldwin at present. But I think it's quite strange. I think she's spoken quite openly about, you know, yeah, growing up with these beliefs, then having to undo them. So I'm not, no one is getting a prize for wearing that pin. But I do think if she can wear one, there is really no excuse why other people will not publicly say, ice out.

This is a Gestapo-esque organization that is complete terrorizing communities. This is my hard line. I do think maybe some celebrities are still a little bit afraid of that 2010's callout culture, the idea, you know, your favour is problematic, that era where we did demand quite a lot of perfection. But at this point, like, it's a lot more critical of a situation. I really will take nods to this if it does at least push back into the darkness, this idea that it is okay. There is a future where children are continues to be taken from their families, where we are seeing things. Like, as you say, like it is like watching a nightmare unfold.

And I feel really comfortable saying anyone who is not able to, at least do the tiniest nod to that is, is kind of the most self-interested and soulless person because it's so easy you just put the pin on. There is no real harm that will come to you as a really famous person. I guess the other side of this which we haven't spoken about is the fact that potentially that isn't how they feel. And Emma DeBerry did an amazing reel the other day,

which was talking about the way that basically the ruling classes offer themselves as a solution when they're in fact the fucking cause. And she does like a kind of like a spoken word poem about how white people need to realise that our own whiteness is weaponised against us, against our best interest. And now that it's playing out and we're seeing ice, you know, treat white people in the same way that black and brown people historically have been treated by law enforcement in the past, it should be a really big wake-up call to realize that we can't trust the people at the top.

I guess there is the possibility. And this is why they should speak out because I do start thinking, maybe they're ignorant, maybe they genuinely don't hold these beliefs. One thing I will say about the badge wearing is if you are going to wear a badge, don't do what Jack Antonoff did but maybe I'm being the arseal here did you watch the video of his response no what happened I missed that

it's more funny than anything but basically on the Grammy's red carpet someone asked him about wearing the badge he went it's terrible you know and then he sort of like stops from it and he's like I mean it's time to it's just for every reason you can imagine I would think and then he shrugs and goes

bitch speechless trying to even talk about it it's a really good time for people to come together and figure out how to move through this. That's tough. And it's like all like punctuated that moment. It's just so awkward. And then you're thinking, shit, do you not know what's happening?

Like if you've just been given a badge, like Margaret Quiley's put it on you and you don't actually know what's happening. Oh, God. So maybe I do still side eye if they're just wearing the badge and don't actually know why they're wearing it. Yeah. And I think it does maybe speak to that time when everyone was like, oh, yeah, I'm putting the pussy hat on.

And it was like, it was sort of depoliticized politics. Yes. And there was a real, I think there was this clamoring for people to be kind of woke under its original definition. And then they weren't. They were kind of signaling and they were just showing up at the right events and saying the stock response. I think people are really tired of that because you kind of dig into it and go, what do you actually believe? Sorry, like, it's very toothless and it's very like, it never really meant so much from some of these celebrities. There were some celebrities worth their salt and most of the time it was not the ones front and

center. It was people just like sending that money. I saw Lord has just donated the, I think it's all of the merch takings from her tour, which is about 200, over. $200,000. That's the kind of useful celebrity activism. But I remember it was it was kind of cool. It was cool to care. I remember the we've mentioned this before, the Taylor Swift Miss Americana thing where she said, I need to be on the right side of history. If I get bad press for saying don't put a homophobic racist in the office, then I get bad press. Like she was making nods to homophobia and inclusion in her songs. Pride flags were appearing. She was donating a lot of money. She was starting petitions for the Equality Act. There were like public six-figure donating.

to the Equality Project, there was a lot of this from the most famous celebrities in the land. And that, I think, was 2010 celebrity activism. It was really palatable. And it's weird that that just doesn't seem to exist in the same way now. Like, it is controversial to do those things in a way that it was just actually really good press. 10, 15 years ago, it seems to have completely changed. And maybe that is that we are demanding better politics or to shut the fuck up. Like, I don't think anyone has a tolerance for the kind of like, yeah, it's bad all this stuff that's going on.

isn't it? That's sort of liberal like, oh, I don't like this. It's like, no, no, this is the final frontier for full-blown fascism. We actually cannot cope with your memes at this point or your like half-assed Red Carp interview. So we touched on Olivia Dean briefly. She is one of my favourite artists at the moment, probably some of yours too, I'd wager. So imagine my surprise when I logged on to X the other day to find that my feed was filled with people slagging her off for being. boring, marketed as modest, and, I quote, making Bloomingdale's makeup counter music and giving off the vibe as someone who's in bed by 10pm every night after 12 slept skin care routine.

The person said, that's just not what I look for in a pop star. Hmm. Okay. Something is a foot, mythinks. At Beefy Fridges on X wrote, Olivia Dean might be the first ever artist to be hated on for being too classy. Now, there's a whole Reddit thread dedicated to the confusion over the sudden backlash, with many salient points being made including

it seems like as soon as a woman in the public eyes seems too likable, popular or talented, the select group that try and pull her down. It's like a pattern with all female artists when they reach a peak in engagement. And that is really true. This absolutely does happen. We even spoke about it before with Hatha Hay,

Jennifer Lawrence, Jennifer Lopez. The list goes on. Helpfully, in 2022, one of the internet's favorite writers, Rayne Fisher-Quain, coined a term for this when she tweeted, A Tesla Mosheg is on the verge of getting women I can feel it.

Wreckets. Woman is what I call when everyone stops like you're women at the same time. In a piece for Refinery 29 at the same year, Polyestazines Ione Gamble wrote, It also isn't the same as being cancelled.

It's not like people are watching with baited breath for these people to slip up or even calling them out on actual bad behaviour. Instead, they're inventing reasons to no longer like them. On mass, people may start taking issue with the way said celebrity holds themselves in interviews or the shade of the lipstick she wears.

Just like the ick can ruin a relationship, being womaned usually stems from a small inconsequential action that becomes increasingly unbearable to the public. Michaela McCusia on X wrote, Olivia Dean's mum being the black deputy leader of the UK Women's Equality Party and her granny being from the Winddress generation whom she dedicated her music to and people are calling her trad propaganda because she likes dresses.

So one of the threads in this is because Olivia Dean does sometimes work kind of like 50s feminine dresses. Her music is trad by propaganda, which doesn't even hold up on its own because she does actually often wear quite revealing outfits and short skirts alongside these retro dresses. Not that any of us should be policing what she wears anyway, but it does truly just feel like people want to topple her off her fairly fresh pedestal. It made me think of when America Ferrara delivered the now infamous monologue in Greta Gerwig's Barbie

that everyone kind of rolled their eyes up because it felt a bit on the nose. But the lines, and it turns out in fact that not only are you doing everything wrong, but also everything is your fault. I'm just so tired of watching myself and every single other woman, herself into knots so that people will like us. I feel like a few people could do with reading that, including Baby Yike A-69 on X, who said, I love to hate on Olivia Dean because she's literally gorgeous and talented, but there's a clear taste issue here. She writes like she was popular in high school. And a final message on X, which I thought bears reading out from Seaweed Burn said,

need everyone too. Sorry, it's really hard to read these names because they're not real. Sorry, the beefy fridges made me die to meet myself. That was good, isn't it? So they wrote, I need everyone to acknowledge how it's not just misogynistic, it's also racist. There is 100% a racial element why people refuse to accept Olivia Dean's style of music

but have no problem with Levei, whose last album had similar themes. Sorry, one more. If you write songs about sex and wear tiny outfits like Sabrina Carpenter, it's setting back feminism. And if you wear long dresses and sing about a woman wanted to fall in love, it's childwife propaganda.

I guess women can. only write and sing about capitalism or depression. So have you both seen the hay? And do you, are you encouraged by the fact that there is a backlash to the hay and the fact that people seem to be quite wise to this trend of us trying to bring women down? Do you think that it could potentially be squashed before Olivia feels the full effects of being womaned? Or are we about to see another woman fall foul to being woman? I think in this case, I'm very reassured to see within like a day, everything on my timeline, especially when I searched Lively Dean specifically, was just people being like, dude, don't even try me right now. This is so stupid. You sit back down. So I'm reassured by that.

And I do think because this is so brazen, she literally won the Grammy for Newcomer of the Year. And the same fucking night, I swear to God, all of this shit just seemed to bubble around. It's just so brazen. And I think at least before, because these kind of woman trends would be, over a period of time, they'd be backed by publications like BuzzFeed, posting listicles, like all the annoying things Anne Hathaway ever did. Or like, here's the reasons the internet hates her. It would be kind of bolstered by all these different things. And now what it seems to be is just like a group of people online say some shit. And if it catches on, it catches on. But I also think because it's happened so often, people are just a bit more awake to it. I hope they are at least.

Or maybe at least with this, because the timing of it was so galling with her. her just having got her flowers as she deserves, people just like were angry and ready to fight for her. I hope people learn from it. I hope people are aware of it. But yeah, my God, just try someone else, try a man for once, my God. It's so wild. It's like, I think of anything, this will deepen people's affection of her. I mean, it has for me. I knew nothing about her besides, oh, lovely songs, perfectly nice music that serves a purpose in like the pop catalogue. Didn't really know much about her. background. I just knew like really fantastically talented, she will do well. And so now I'm like,

but I will go to war for her and I love her and I feel very defensive of her because this is so unjust. It doesn't align with anything we know about her. She is just making nice music and people have gone, that is kind of boring to me. And so I'm cross. And I was seeing again, all over my, the minute I engaged with one tweet, I got both sides all over my news feed and people saying, all the gay guys on my timeline dragging Olivia Dean's perfectly inoffensive back to school sale music. So I think even people that are like, look, it's not for me, but I think that nails it is perhaps, I'm not going to say it's just the gay pop fans, but it's what it is, it's the stands online who feel that she is not entertaining them sufficiently and so are

turning on her, probably in defence of their own faves. And I think it's such, it's that internet brained thing. I think in the public perception, Olivia Dean is nothing but like either people have no opinion or they think perfectly nice or they really like her. It's very positive. It's like, how could you come up with something to dislike about this person? And the internet's like, hold my kombucha, I will find something. And the backlash, I think, is very much among a very online, hateful group of stands who cannot engage normally with anything, who need someone to be either their pet or need to be completely discarded and hated. It's so wild. And it is, her crime has been boring to a specific group of people. And that is it. She's done

absolutely nothing beyond that. I find the suggestion that she's boring so fascinating because I know that people love the theatrics of like Lady Gaga and Beyonce and I do love that but I actually love it when a performer stands on stage and sings like I don't need all of that stuff and I didn't realize how many people felt so strongly that they owed like a million dollar sort of theatrical musical theatre performance and I saw Olivia Dean that time I went to Glasemory that one and lonely time and she was my highlight she was so captivating I just stood on the spot and I stared at her and I I was crying. It was like the first day we got there. I mean, all of my friends was a massive group of us. We all just stopped and stood there. Like we hadn't actually planned to see her. I knew some of her songs.

She wasn't like that big yet. It was the middle of the day. And she just was walking around the stage. She does a bit of dancing. Yeah, she doesn't do like she's not back flipping. She's not zip lining off the stage like pink. But I honestly was, she was anything but boring. She's so beautiful the way she smiles, the way her voice carries.

I find it very interesting what we expect of artists now. And also just the idea. of the way she dresses is somehow like tradwife propaganda. She sings like soul R&B, it's got a swing feel to it, like her outfits match her vibe. And I think all of her outfits are really young and fun. When you start reading pop like propaganda that's trying to influence us and conspire against us, it's so internet pilled. It's so just like, such a strange logic to apply to people just singing. I don't think that she's trying to encourage us all to be regressive to give up our, you know, rights as women to become tradwives. I don't think that's what she's doing.

She doesn't seem to be singing about that. She doesn't even look like that. She has won some slutty things. I think people are doing the thing that Ionee Gamble spoke about in her polyester piece, which is they're just looking for a reason. They don't like her. They don't like her music, which isn't a crime. And because we now will have the language of politicized lexicon, we know about talking about regression pop or pop stars conspiring in their lyrics. industry plants, we know about all of this language. It's just like kind of using academic language to just say you don't like a bitch. That's what I'm getting from this. It is, but industry plant is the one that I always, you see people use it and you're like,

I don't think you know what that word means. I don't think you, I think it's just convenient. What it means is I didn't know about this person and therefore they went from zero to 100, not to mention all of her fans will tell you like there was graph, there was hard work, there was like the features she was on. This has been years and years in the making. And of course, this never happens to men. Even if they are industry plants, like I don't know any industry plant men. I'm not really Ophay in the music industry, but like you could be like a Benson Boone type coming apparently out of nowhere. If you're in the UK, I was like, one day he was there. The next, yeah, he was back flipping on stage and everyone was like, wonderful. Like, even if a man

is disliked for any reason, like it's kind of soft. Like, it's so frustrating. She can be, she is so talented. She's just like completely gorgeous, talented, whereas beautiful dress. It's kind of all the things we want, or we claim to want of a pop star, she is not, she's obviously like super smart and has this depth to the lyrics, even if they are, even if they are, I'm about saying just love songs. There's no such thing as just a love song. They're really, they're love songs. We love songs famously still, that woman is going to get lambasted every which way to Sunday.

I love her lyrics, but also, oh God, I've got so much more to say than I realize. Firstly, about Benson Boone. My favourite Benson Boone fact is every three to four year old in the world loves him. My niece knows every single world. Every single word to beautiful things. And it always comes up on my feed. These little kids sing Benson Boone. They freaking love it.

It comes on, Matilda can't help it. She's like standing up. She guts on the chair. She knows all of the words. There's something about his music that really appeals to toddlers. Secondly, this is a perfect example of the left showing their ass. Because all of the criticism of it's such a convoluted web, I don't even know how to unlock it. But it's like, we're criticizing a woman for purportedly presenting trad wife ideology.

When she's not, no one's done. evidently it's been shown that she's actually very politically left-leaning, very engaged, come from a history of women who are very engaged. And it's the left that are kind of degrading her by saying that she's being the wrong type of woman that doesn't fit on the left. And this kind of almost goes back to our conversation about, you know, getting it wrong. I don't know, there is a mess. There was a really good, I don't know if it was, was the New York or the New York Times, one of them had a really good image the other day of like all those red hands just pointing the same direction. And then all of the left hands kind of pointing in all different directions with fists and everyone

sort of like fighting each other. And it's like, we are really showing our ass. Everyone is just making such a fool of themselves by trying to bring down this woman because this has been politicised as like she's kind of bringing up woke right agenda. It just feels like people trying to bolster their own political accolades say that they know some really trendy words all in the name of bringing a woman down. I completely agree. And I do think because so many of us think we're better than getting involved in these hate trains, fall in. into the webs of misogyny really. I think people can be quite defensive and they're like, no, I just don't like her and it's because she's presenting as a tradwife and actually blah, blah, blah,

and actually blah, blah, blah, and actually blah, blah, blah. Just take a second, think about it. Are those things actually true? Also, is it really fair to be gunning that hard to say that you dislike a singer? It's also okay to just be like, her music doesn't really sit with me. You know, God bless everyone else, good for them. That's also okay too, but I do think it's so many different things. It's like we were talking about, I can't remember what exactly the medium was, but I think it was Hamnet. We were talking about Hamnet. It's almost like this loss of a middle ground. It's that piece from ID talking about, we've almost lost the ability to just say, you know, not for me, all good. It's either this was the best film ever, this is the best thing ever, it deserves every single Oscar, everything else is

stupid or it's this was the worst thing ever this is the most stupid thing how dare somebody make this piece of art and it's it's just like it's so needlessly contentious it's so needlessly extreme and I think when you're pointing your finger out one person and it's all kind of directed and there's multiple things happening at the same time online you just have to look at yourself are you on the right side who are your bedfellows who are the people tweeting with you I don't think that you would be proud to look at you know this train that you're joining on the journey you're going on I don't think it's the best trip. It's not the best use for it. It's basically the messages get alive. Like imagine being the end of your life and having to explain what you did in the 2020s

and you're like, when I was really nasty to a completely normal and very talented woman. Imagine explaining that to God. Like just go outside. See a friend for a coffee. You know, hold your grandmother's hand. Like breathe in the fresh air. You are going to die one day. And I promise you, at the bitter end, you will be embarrassed about this. Bold of you to assume that my grandmothers are alive. That's so true. millennials now. Well, the one other thing that did actually make me check myself quickly and then I decided that it was okay is one of the biggest things that's coming about about this Olivia Dean thing

is a lot of Swift's saying Taylor Swift has dealt with this for her entire career. Where was all of this energy when this was happening? And I suddenly went, oh my God, have I participated in womaning Taylor Swift? And then to go back to what we spoke about at the top, what was in that sub-sac that I mentioned and all of the things that Beth outlined, there is a significant difference in the reason why certain people feel not everyone. I'm sure that she definitely would have faced her fair share or unfair share of ridiculous misogyny and ridicule purely by virtue of the fact that she's a woman.

But there is also historical reasoning there why people might feel like she says one thing, does another thing, has the capability to do one thing that she doesn't. Whereas Olivia Dean actually weirdly has never, I didn't know about her mum's position or work or like her family history. I just says into her music and enjoyed her. I actually think she's a great lyricist. she's not come out and said anything actually.

People have just projected it completely incorrectly. So I did have to check myself there because I was like, we definitely can all, I definitely would have in my mind. I remember at the time when the Anne Hathaway thing happened being like, oh, I guess we all hate Anne Hathaway without really like challenging it. I just sort of went along with it. But the last thing I'll say, which is, sorry to make it about me, but I do find it interesting.

I do think we have come a bit away of making sort of like anything to do with like femininity or love kind of full of shame. And I wrote a substack on Tuesday, which was about how I've actually got back with my ex. And I was so terrified to post it because I feel like culturally it's such a bad time to be talking about things like this, to be admitting, A, that you have a boyfriend, B, that it's a recycled boyfriend. And C, I put something in it about like thinking he was the love of my life. And I was like, oh my God, I can't believe I've said this because it feels embarrassing. Thank you, Shantay Joseph. So I do think we're off the podcast for this.

She's out of here. Don't worry listeners. I know. I just, it's a weird time to be alive where we are doing a bit too much like one plus one equals nine. Like you can still be feminine and wear a dress and be in love and be left leaning politically. Like that is okay. Recycled. I'm not over it. Recycled. I can't believe we got the audio exclusive of Anoni's Love Life. Thank you so much for listening this week.

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