Everything Is Content - The White Lotus Finale, Film Industry Satire & Russell (Re)Brand

Episode Date: April 11, 2025

Welcome to a brand new EIC! Seth Rogen and his long-time collaborator Evan Goldberg have taken aim at the film industry – and no one is safe. A star-studded cameo line-up is the least interesting thing about The Studio, which is a testament to the brilliant writing of this hilarious satire. (TW; we mention sexual abuse from 23 mins in.) Russell Brand has been charged with rape, indecent assault, and sexual assault. We explore the historic public image evolution he's undergone, and his rebrand to a conspiracist. Finally, we're being forced to check-out of the White Lotus and it doesn't feel good! Here's what we thought of Mike White's ambitious meditation on desire, demons and drama.In collaboration with Cue Podcasts.Ruchira has been loving Lucky Boy.Beth has been loving The Righteous Gemstones and Dying For Sex.Oenone has been loving Costa's pistachio cookie.The Studio review – Seth Rogen’s Hollywood satire is fast, furious and beautifully fun'White Lotus' and the pain of desireThe off-the-grid adventures of Walton Goggins Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This episode is brought to you by London Neutropics. Their delisious adaptogenic coffee is made with premium heaf-festered terra mushroom extracts and designed to help you stay balanced and elevate your day. As a huge procrastinator, I love the Flow blend because it helps me to stay focused without the crash. I usually have a normal coffee in the morning, but a second one would make me way too jittery. So instead, Flow has been the perfect hack for my afternoon slump. I love Flow for that exact reason. I've been drinking it instead of my usual afternoon coffee and honestly I massively prefer it.

I still feel like I'm treating myself while keeping my focus sharp without any of the jitters at the end of the workday. Okay turns out we're all obsessed with Flo because that's my favourite too. I can't believe how productive I feel after drinking it. It's made with the best in class heifers de ter Terras, Lion Mane and Rodeo Life. Rodeola, Rosea, two powerful adaptogens that have been studied for their cognitive benefits around focus, mental clarity and stress resistance. I love the taste of coffee and the boost it gives, but I definitely struggle with anxiety if I have multiple cups a day. Flow has been a game changer for me.

If you want to stay sharp and skip the crash, visit londonnewtropics.com to try it for yourself. And you can use everything at checkout for 20% off. But hurry, it won't last forever. Thank you, London Newtropics. This episode contains some sensitive topics. Please check the episode description for a list of trigger warnings. I'm Beth. I'm Rachira. And I'm Anoni. I'm Beth. I'm Rachera. And I'm Anoni. And this is Everything is Content, the podcast where we handpick the best pop culture stories from the week and analyse them in depth.

We talk about everything, TV, film, celebrities, social media, beauty trends, the lot. We're the coconut cream, pineapple juice and rum of content in the deadly pina colada of discourse. This week on the podcast we're talking about Russell Brand and the celebrity Christian comeback, Apple TV's Hollywood satire at the studio and spoiler alert, spoiler alert, the white lotus finale. Follow us on Instagram at Everything is Content Pod and also follow us on your podcast player so you never miss an episode. And while you're there,

make sure you're all caught up on our extra Wednesday episodes. This week, we discuss yet more mad beauty standards with the morning shed trend. Now, I'm going to go with you, Ruchira. What have you been loving this week? Oh, I was hand selected. I have been loving Tortoise's, I think fairly new podcast called Lucky Boy, which is true to their classic roster of podcasts, an amazing, compelling story, just like broken down over a serial. And this one is about a man and our man who retrospectively is trying to find justice for the fact that he was groomed and had a sexual relationship with his teacher when he was aged 14. It is honestly heartbreaking, harrowing, but also so insanely addictive. I binged four, I think there's four episodes, just this past weekend,

Saturday and Sunday, and I wish there was more. Have you guys heard of this? I've heard of Tortoise. I think, I think they did Sweet Bobby maybe, which is another great kind of really well-researched, really balanced podcast series that became a Netflix series. But no, I haven't heard of this, but it does really sound like something that I would find really fascinating. Did you say you finished it in your binge?

Yes, I finished it. I binged, I absolutely binged. And I even binged Sweet Bobby this week after that because I felt like I'm back in the days of just needing those kind of insane audio documentaries. I'd like gone off them for years. The last one I'd listened to was the serial Trojan Horse series, which was amazing. I think that was their fourth series. And I don't know why. I just went off it and started going to chit chatty ones and now I'm back. So if anyone has any really good investigative series, please let me know. Yes, no, this one's amazing. And because the case, this case happened in the 1980s, it opens up some really interesting, fascinating discourse around how children's rights and sexual abuse has changed politically in such a small amount of time.

Back then, this kind of thing was just seen as, oh, well, he's pretty lucky. You know, everyone wants a relationship with the hot teacher. She was in her late twenties. Everyone fancied her in the school. It was just kind of seen as, who cares? Everyone's kind of getting something out of this. And it was just dismissed from countless arenas in the story. It was so shocking and so interesting. It is absolutely amazing. Definitely go listen. That sounds so good. I absolutely love Sweet Bobby. I think was that, did that come out in lockdown? I really remember.

I think you're right. Yeah. And then also the other, I also completely forgot about audio documentaries. I'm definitely gonna listen to that, but I loved the one about Anna Delvey because that all started in an audio doc, I think. I didn't know that, really. I'm sure it did, because I remember listening to that years and years ago when I was living in Straton. So again, that must've been like 2019, 2020.

And also like Crypto Queen, I also went through a phase of that, but that's completely dropped off for me. So I might have to go into that as well. Yeah, oh my God. Okay, I'm gonna listen to the Anadelvi one. That sounds so good. What about you Anoni?

What have you been loving? Oh, I've been really bad. I've been so busy with my first week back in London. So I haven't been consuming that much culture. So my recommendation this week is a chocolate pistachio cream cookie from Costa. And I am not normally someone to go into Costa, but I was walking Astrid and I just had this sudden violent urge for a sweet treat because I think I was about to come on my period. You can't take dogs into any of the shops in the local area. So I was like, I'll go to Costa. The cookie looked really bad visually, but I was

like, I love anything with pistachio. And I was blown away to be honest. I've had three cents. It's really good. It is three pounds something though, which I think is astronomical. Could you recreate at home do you think? Are you a baker? No, because it's also one of those cookies that isn't actually kind of like a cookie. It's almost like tastes more like a bread. It's all wrong. It's very sugary. If that was on Bake Off, it would get disqualified. The pistachio cream is really yummy, but it's just a good soft texture. I suppose you could buy that pistachio cream stuff that you get in a pot, which I would eat the whole jar of.

But I've, I'm not that, we actually, I actually made cookies recently with my niece and they were awful. Oh, that's sad. Although I do have a hack for you. I don't know if it's still out, but I kept seeing reels about this limited edition M&S pistachio cream that they had released, which is basically like the exact stuff that they put in like pastries and stuff at the moment. And it's amazing apparently. Yeah. I'm one of my fans, I think, like the exact stuff that they put in like pastries and stuff at the moment. And it's amazing, apparently. Yeah. I'm one of my fans, I think, to brownies using that stuff. And then yeah, she ate the whole pot. So anyway, that's my recommendation for you. Sorry about that. What have you been loving, Beth?

Okay. So I sort of forgot that this week we're going to cover two TV shows. And so I've got two extra TV shows. Listeners, I think, will forgive me because we actually love, we love telly on this show. So the first one I'm watching is on now TV and it's called the Righteous Gemstones. And I've been seeing so much talk and chatter about this. I thought, Oh my God, amazing, a brand new TV show, hot off the presses. In fact, it's been on for like five or six years, really big in America. It just hadn't permeated my mind. Have either of you heard of The Righteous Gemstones? No. That's a resounding no. So it is a comedy series set in South Carolina, which I think is

where The Rat Lives from White Lotus are from, somewhere in the Carolinas. It is indeed. which I think is where the rat lips from White Lotus are from, somewhere in the Carolinas. It is indeed. Yes, and I think there's some parallels there because it's based around a family of rich, mega church pastors and televangelists. So like kind of faith healing, kind of like really big money Christianity. The father, it's a father and he's got multiple sons, but just two of them are pastors I think. Father's played by John Goodman, who by the way, I thought he had passed away quite some time ago. So to see that he's actually alive and actually doing really well, I was

thrilled by that. I just convinced myself he was the late great. Two of his sons played by Danny McBride, who created this series and Adam Devine. His other cast is also amazing. So I looked up the cast in later series. Jermit Mulroney plays, who is gorgeous, he plays a competing local pastor. Also, beloved Walton Goggins from White Lotus is in this. He hasn't really been in it too much, but I think he's a recurring character. And he plays this former child gospel star called Baby Billy Freeman and he's just like completely eccentric, completely nuts. I did see a GIF over the weekend of him water skiing naked, cock and

balls out, having the time of his life. So I can't wait to get to that episode. It's just a very, very funny series. I think because it's about like a mega church, we don't really have that over in the UK. We have a very different religious scene. And so I think maybe it's just not quite hit the mark, even though I'm sure loads of listeners will love it and watch it. But it's very funny just to set the scene a bit. The very opening scene is father, two sons have gone to China to try and baptize 5,000 Chinese people, save their souls. And they're doing so in this huge pool, just like line of people round the bend and that sort of dunking them in this pool and then someone turns the wave machine on

and it's just such a great bit of physical comedy. Really got me hooked from the very first scene. I think you'd both really like it. I think it's a little bit out there, but I've been laughing, I've been cackling from bed, my sick bed as you can hear. I feel like I sound like I've swallowed a ball of socks sideways and I've been cackling from bed, my sick bed, as you can hear. I feel like I sound like I've swallowed a ball of socks sideways and I've been in bed watching TV and this has

been chef's kiss. So that is number one. I'm sure we'll get onto it, but just the mere mention of more Walter Goggins has made me so keen to watch this. Sex with man. Me too. Do you know, I don't think I've ever seen, have you seen him in something else? I recognize him, but I can't pinpoint if I've ever watched him in anything else. I haven't actually, no. He's been in a lot of stuff but again, I think the last thing I saw him in was Fallout where

he plays this kind of creature with no nose and women were going, oh, we still fit though, which is so weird. I later, can we please talk about his attractiveness, whether we fancy, because I think he's been such a like wolf in the hen house for attractiveness. Men are like, but I thought you didn't like receiving hairlines and like older men were like, Alton Goggins. So that's my first show. Second show I'll be quite quick on because I would like to talk about this at some point, but it's I've only just started it. It's Dying for Sex on Disney+, which came out I think a week ago. So people are watching it, no spoilers for me because I'm about one,

two episodes in, which is a drama mini series based on a true podcast about a woman who was diagnosed with terminal stage four cancer who decides to leave her 10, 15 year marriage to shag, to like seek out good sex, to explore sex properly before she dies, starring Michelle Williams as the lead, Molly and Jenny Slate as her best friend. And I just, I'm really enjoying it. A lot of people are talking about it. It's really like raw, but it's very funny, very joyful.

And it's about sex at point in your life where you think, oh, surely you wouldn't. And yeah, I'm loving it. Can I just say about the hairline thing, I saw such a funny tweet that was like, for years, Jude Law has been flying the flag for receding hairline doing so much work and then Walter Goggins just waltz right in and taking his crown. He's taken his receding crown. I think he has. Jude Law who? But I've also seen a trailer for that dying of Sex that is on my to watch pile list. Yeah, heap.

I feel exactly the same. I'm dying ironically to watch this show. It is just exactly the kind of thing I need right now. I need something uplifting. I need something fun. And also I love Jenny Slate. Do you remember her and girls as this really annoying kind of nemesis for Lena Denham's character Hannah, and then they suddenly have a day where they spend the day together and

it turns out she's just full of insecurity. So it's just like, basically, constantly trying to one up people around her because she feels so terrible and they just bond through it. It's amazing. I forgot about that character. So good because didn't she get published first or like someone gets published and it's that classic like writers who like love and support each other, but then one gets like a massive book deal and you're like, oh, I can never truly trust you again. Brilliant. Truly. And her, the reason she gets that book deal is because her partner at the time died

by suicide. And it's just the, it's just the classic cherry on the cake millennial trauma dump novel for something terrible happening in your life. And secretly's just the classic cherry on the cake millennial trauma dump novel for something terrible happening in your life. And secretly Hannah's like, why didn't that happen to me? I'd love that show. So I've been absolutely itching to talk about the new Seth Rogen Apple TV comedy, The Studio. It's a satirical look at the film industry through the lens of a fictional film exec who's risen to the top ranks of his studio. It's created

by Seth Rogen and his former Superbad co-creator, Evan Goldberg. Played by Seth, Matt is battling between his desire to create meaningful, artistic film and the studio's kind of competing desire to make the next Barbie and pump out IP box office hits. We get some insane, truly incredible cameos, including Martin Scorsese, who plays himself, Katherine Hahn, who I am obsessed with. I know she is my absolute fave, but you will love her in this. She's this sassy marketing exec who is honestly decked head to toe in brands. At one point, I think she's

wearing a Versace cap, top, matching leggings, handbag and clutching a three liter coffee cup at all times is just quite frankly iconic. We also get Charlize Theron, Greta Lee and Paul Dano. In just three episodes, the comedy, I would say expertly pokes fun at the way we glorify one-shot films, the sycophantic way that everyone has to treat studio execs and especially because they're the ones, the only ones with money in this industry. And also the show looks at the depressing need to pump out more Barbies over indie films and the shady dealings that go down in the industry. The Guardian gave it four stars and it's been, I would say quite a big talking point recently, but I think I've said enough. What did you guys think of the show? So I really loved this, but I got a bit

confused because in our group chat, I think Anona, you were saying, oh, there's just three episodes, EG, there's just three episodes out. I thought there was just three episodes overall. So I reached the end of the third episode. I was like, God, I wish there was more. I was like, oh no, that's such a shame because it's such a weird place to end it. And then realized there were seven more episodes still to come. So I was thrilled, sad, confused, thrilled again. I really loving it. It does feel like I immediately messaged people like, are you watching this? It's a really good TV because I wanted to be the one to recommend them and put them onto it. It feels like that kind of prestige, best thing, unlike anything else on the TV at the moment,

perfect little slot in for all the other TV that's just come to a close. I will say, I know you should never double screen, but this feels like when you should not double screen. So much of the action, so much of like the joy of this is the micro facial movements, the kind of reactions of this amazing cast. It's Ike Barinholtz kind of plays his kind of just subordinate to Seth Rogen, Seth Rogen's character, and they together just have this constant interplay of like mad facial expression. So just put down the other screen and give this your full attention. I mean, Seth Rogen, of course, one of the world's sexiest men, but also he's so, so talented. I think I forget in between watching him on screen how good he actually is.

So I'm loving this. Thanks for this recommendation. And Oni, what are you thinking? I'm also loving this. And also you say it pokes fun at one shot, but it is also shot in one shot, isn't it? Which is really fun and enjoyable. Every scene is one shot.

And I love Katrin Hahn. I mean, I've always loved her, but it's really nice to see. I think she's very often supporting roles and it's nice to see her more front and center. And she's just so funny, her comedic timing. I think she looks absolutely gorgeous as well. And I like seeing how the sausage is made. I think we're ready. I think that like we spoken about before, there can be an earnestness to Hollywood and there can be this aspect of sort of deifying and glorifying the work that they do, even though as a pop culture podcast, we obviously find

anything to do with arts and the culture, one of the most important things that could ever exist. But it's really nice to see them poking fun at themselves and looking inward and making jokes to the things that everyone says. It is interesting also to see that the sausage is made and that everyone's so game to be in on and part of the joke, which is ultimately laughing at themselves. I was wondering this because the amount of cameos and these are like Hollywood A-listers, this bloody Martin Scorsese in the first episode and he has this iconic crying scene. It is just mental. But how does, how has he got all these people to literally make fun of the industry that in and also it's not it's not particularly complimentary look at love the things going on especially that first episode that really. Concentrate on the fact that barbie proved that film can you know disrupt and bring in a huge amount of money.

and bring in a huge amount of money. That's amazing. But the domino effect is that it slashed the ability to make indie films or artistic films in the same way. That's not a particularly complimentary comment about the film industry, but everyone's just game to say that. I think it's quite a big deal. Well, I guess none of the actors are the people that are, I guess, coming from. It's more about the production, the directors, the people, are, I guess, coming up. It's more about the production, the directors, the people, the studio execs at the top. Actually, I guess it's more their lead. The actors are probably really enjoying the fact that they get to poke fun at these systems above them, which do orchestrate what films are going to get made. It's also just making me think, I still haven't watched Ends with Us, but I just this morning saw Anne

Hathaway post a clip of her with the script of Verity, another Colleen Hoover film. And I just thought, I don't want more of that, please. And I really respect Anne Hathaway. And I think it does show how much the movie industry is struggling that they're bashing out another one of those books because no shade, but I think that there are other films to be made that don't need to be remakes or rehashes, as you say, which are like there's lots of incredible, interesting new voices that we could be hearing from and that's just not what we're getting right now. Yeah, it's all like big billion dollar grabs. I did read, I wonder if either of you read this, I think it was an interview or profile in Variety of Seth Rogen about this and he

was saying, quote, it's genuinely an industry we love. It's written from the perspective of people who can't deny that our dreams have come true because of this industry in many ways, but it's also so fucking frustrating and aggravating. You're constantly seeing people make choices that are confounding and contrary to their own love of film, which I think it is, you're right. It is the people who love it and have done very well from it, but aren't making those final point decisions who aren't guiding the industry away from really good filmmaking towards billion dollar IP, et cetera. And I think it's showing who is willing to laugh at themselves. And I was also thinking, I was like, how did they get

people? And I imagine it's like, who's worked with who, this nice network of people. And I imagine it's like, who's worked with who this kind of like nice network of people and like, if you think of the COVID celeb imagine video as the worst thing you can possibly do with industry connections, this is kind of I think the best thing you can do with industry connections because we're going to love it. I've seen a list of like potential cameos to come and they're so good. Every time someone else comes on the screen, I'm like, are you kidding? Like you get so much out of them. Greta Lee, especially, seemed so keen to kind of play into this characterized version of herself where she's kind of quite shrewd, wants to go on a private jet. Just really funny. And it's actually really amping up my view of a lot of these celebrities. Martin Scorsese, again, have always loved him since,

I mean, he was himself in Curb, Your Enthusiasm. He's one of the few directors I've actually seen in, in stuff as himself and actually be quite believable. I mean, Quentin Tarantino can't be stopped from self-inserting himself into everything. But it is very rare you would see directors in stuff, and they've got a few really good ones in even the first three episodes.

And it's like, these people must actually be very trustworthy if you're a director to be like, I trust you enough that I'm going to be myself in this and it's not going to humiliate me. So it's making me really think very highly of of everyone involved in making this. I agree. I've got two things to say. One of them is as I was putting together, just like the intro for this, I saw that they've commissioned a Hershey's

chocolate film this week. And it is just so on the nose that a series like this will come out and everyone's laughing at it and they're like, oh my God, that's so true. What a good point. But still there is like week after week, we just had fucking Minecraft drop with Jennifer Coolidge and Jason Momoa, which looked like a pile of shit to be quite frank. And then like a Hershey's film is coming out. It's just, I don't know. It's just, it is, it's really funny, but it's also depressingly accurate to the times we're in right now. And I don't know, I kind of also just felt a bit like God, we're in a pile of shit, like on fire at the women creatively, aren't we? Um, the second thing I was going to say is I also think it's amazing that somebody as powerful as Seth Rogan, who

has been in the industry for years is the one leading it. Because I think if this was done by anyone else who was slightly newer to the industry, I don't think it could have the same ability to a grab, you know, the names that it does, but also be on Apple TV and be a mainstay of culture right now and have the impact it does. I think it is good that it is just like primetime TV and we're having these conversations. I think that's really good. Third thing was, I think it's really interesting as well that somebody like Apple TV is going to host this because in the first episode, Martin Scorsese makes a comment, a rogue comment about, oh, you know, I'll just throw it on a streamer or something, this film, this really long film

that I want to work on. That's literally what happened to Flowers, Killers of the Flower Moon, his film. It went straight onto Apple TV as soon as it had a limited run in cinemas. So yeah, it is interesting that this streamer is kind of okay with laughing at itself and having a few comments that point the finger slash the water gun right back at itself. And I'm rewatching bits of Black Mirror, coded Red Mirror, some of the episodes are called, which actively poke fun at Netflix. And it's interesting that I think maybe these streamers are realizing that to kind of get ahead of the conversations of them being problematic to the industry, they maybe have to be part of the fun, the joke, and maybe include themselves in the punchline. That's the cynical

look at it. Maybe the optimistic look at it is that it's an industry full of creatives and they do want to have those conversations. What do you think? Well, I guess also it's better to have someone slagging off your streamer on your streamer than on another one. So like, it's better for you to be like, oh my God, blah, blah, blah, Apple TV, on Apple TV, rather than it being on Netflix. And I also think even more cynically, bottom line, this is a really big show with like an ensemble cast that is very well made. And I'm sure they knew it was going to do really well. They're going to want to have that on their platform and it's paying off. So I don't know, I don't even know how much they'll take offense to any sort of jibes and jabs. It's nothing that they wouldn't have heard before, you know. So I think that, I don't know,

I have a very cynical view of the actual streaming platforms in and of themselves. I really do just think it's dollar signs in their eyes. Isn't it Apple? I mean, this is take this a bit short, but I was reading a lot of reports that Apple is compared to like is losing a lot more money by putting on the shows they're putting on kind of maybe more carefully putting together or curating a list of shows slash movies that they're showing. Again, I also do agree. I feel very cynical about it. I don't want to live in this world. I want big cinema releases. I want indie films back. But I think of the streaming giants, they are maybe the best of a bad bunch. But again, do your own research there. But I think that's quite interesting.

Netflix I do just think of as this big horrible behemoth and I don't have to say that word. So with the red mirror stuff, I was thinking like, I didn't even of it as this big, horrible behemoth, and I don't have to say that word. So with the Red Mirror stuff, I was thinking, I didn't even find it very endearing. I was like, oh, you bastards. It felt very more like in plain sight, if that makes sense, of being like, yeah, we are evil. I have seen that thing about Apple before, but then I've also seen the counter of it's Apple. So it's Apple TV, but it's under the brand of Apple, where they are selling technology for an 8,000% markup and are one of the highest grossing companies in the world. So I think they have the cash. So because I think they like, they love, I think I've seen a

few things like that where like, we put so much into our shows, we're losing money, but that company as a whole will never lose money. Oh my God, I fell for it. I got tech washed. So you can watch the studio on Apple TV right now. We would love to hear what you think about it and watch the space. We're definitely going to update you with thoughts as the series progresses. Russell Brand has been charged with rape, indecent assault, and sexual assault. Brand has been interviewed multiple rape, indecent assault and sexual assault. Brand has been interviewed multiple times by police since an investigation by the Sunday Times,

The Times. And in September 2023, Channel 4's dispatches revealed multiple serious allegations against him. The Metropolitan Police said the allegations related to four separate women as it appealed for everyone affected to the case to come forward. It's alleged that Brand raped a woman in 1999 in the Bournemouth area, indecently assaulted a woman in 2001 in the Westminster area of London, orally raped and sexually assaulted a woman in 2004 in Westminster and sexually assaulted a woman in Westminster between 2000 and 2005. So following this, Brand has published a video to his social media channels where he said that he had, and I quote, never engaged in non-consensual

activity and he was grateful for the chance to defend himself in court. As the criminal proceedings are active, we can't go into details about whether or not we think Brand is guilty. Have we thought it could be interesting to look at the way that he's changed his image over the last few years and the specific pipeline of going from someone who's kind of sex, drugs and rock and roll to spiritual thought leader, conspiracy theorist and right wing commentator. So I'm sure you all remember that Brown rose fame in the early noughties as a comedian and presenter and he was famous for his at the time so-called metrosexual look, which was skinny jeans,

big hair, unbuttoned shirt, down to the waist and boots. That was kind of his like unofficial uniform. At the same time, he was notorious for being promiscuous and provocative and charming and quite an extensive use of the English language and an interesting use of his vocabulary. He was really eccentric and gregarious and outrageous, but people really loved him. In fact, his closeness to femininity in the way that he dressed and spoke and his flamboyancy in the way that he dressed made him seem quite separate from the lad culture of the time, which is what we more closely associated to, I guess, men behaving badly. Then in 2007, he released his memoir, My Bookie Work, which sold more than

600,000 copies. And Anthony Andrew from the Azarva commented that, Russell Brand's gleeful tale of drugs and debauchery in My Bookie Work puts most other celebrity memoirs to shame. But after this, not that long after, Brand became more politically outspoken, often critiquing the establishment, capitalism and social injustice. About seven years later in 2014, he released a book called Revolution, where he called for a complete overhaul of the political system, emphasizing the need for nonviolent widespread social change. Then in 2017, he started his podcast Under the Skin, which I absolutely loved at the time. He then was speaking more as an activist and the tagline asked, what's beneath the surfaces of the people we admire, the ideas that define our time and the history

that we are told with guests including Naomi Klein, Al Gore and Brian Cox. Fast forward even further. And last year, things took a turn again. Brand did an ad for an evil energy blocking amulet, which was like a piece of hardware called the LiveTune Flex from Ayres Tech that retails for $240. That caused a bit of uproar. He then moved his content over to Rumble, which is a free speech platform trying to compete with YouTube designed for small content creators. He also got baptized in the Thames with the help of his friend Bear Grylls. Brad said that was an opportunity to leave the past behind. Earlier this year, he featured on Jordan Peterson's podcast talking about why he's abandoned Mahadanism. Then he was also honored with a Global Defender of Freedom Award at a Black Tie Gala ceremony in the

Ballroom at Mar-a-Lago, which is Donald Trump's palatial home in Palm Beach, Florida. So quite a long journey he's taken there. And actually at some point in the middle, he went from a place where I kind of like politically agreed with him and now he's moved further and further into like conspiracy theories in the right. I wanted to know what do you both make of this journey? What does it reveal about the potential for a personal redemption arc? Or how has this public transformation from like bad boy celebrity to man focused on spirituality been received? Do you think that it's receiving a lot of criticism or do you think it's seen as genuine? I find it hard to know where I stand with this, but my instinct is that there is a level of radicalisation

involved and there's a very well trodden pipeline for spirituality and conspiracy theories. There's a term called conspirituality, which is the overlap of those two things. So it's things like, you know, being into healthy eating and holistic lifestyle is an easy gateway to then kind of engage with anti-vaccine content and then engage with, you know, anti-lockdown content because there's this idea that these are, you know, I don't know, infringing on our liberties, infringing on our peace, all those kind of things. It's very easy to transform yourself from one end of a healthy lifestyle into the kind of alternative, maybe anti-medicine side of things and then go further

and further down the rabbit hole. So I think that is definitely a little bit or part of the pie of what's happened because I remember I completely agree with you. I used to listen to Under the Skin and really liked it. But there was, I remember almost like a left turning in the early 2020s, where he started having people like Jordan Peterson on his platform and having those kind of really offensive, very damaging, dangerous, right wing men. And his argument at the time is that if you want to have meaningful discussions, you have to listen to people you disagree with. And I just felt like this little bell going off in my head where I felt like that always feels like

the start of something and I can't really pinpoint what it is. Now I can, it's just that that always feels like the beginning of somebody trying to excuse the fact that they're going to have more conversations with these people, platform them, share their ideas and inevitably just normalize them. So I think regardless of if it's tactical, I think one thing I definitely think has happened is it's also deeper than that too. I think he does believe an extent of this messaging, regardless of if he's, you know, manipulating his public image. I think it is too horrible, the stuff that's being platformed for it not to be.

I agree. And my instinct is, I think you're, platformed for it not to be. I agree. And my instinct is, I think you're bang on the money there. I think it's going to be really interesting to see the kind of final place of this, because it does feel like we, it did feel at the time, maybe quite rapid. There was end of 2023 allegations, early 2024, publicly came out as a Christian was baptized very soon after. But actually, I think there has been a deepening shelf of theology and religious content, Christian content, in his work for maybe the last eight or so years, at least like mid 2010s. It was, well,

I'm so curious about everything. Let's talk to this Christian leader. I know in a lot of his anti-addiction work, he frames it within a very godly way and even just saying, well, I'm not somebody who believes in this and this, but there's a lot of God in this and then saying, but actually God is everything and maybe religion is the problem. And then it was, well, actually I'm going to enter full force into this religion. So I think I see absolutely why people are a little bit shell-shocked and taken aback and suspicious. But I think for me, it feels quite arrogant almost to not, for most of your life, to not be an out and out Christian. I mean, he's had a what, 20 plus year career

for most of that to have spent either being a Buddhist or quite questioning of organized religion to now be speaking, to have converted publicly and kind of publicly and officially just last year to now be a voice of authority. I mean, there's something about that. I just think legit or not, on your way somewhere more radical or not, that's just very arrogant. It feels very hurried and I kind of go, what is that meant to tell me? Are you trying to communicate something by not just being like, well, I'm a follower, I'll let you know how I get on a year to five years into this religion. It's going, well, now I'm an authority, I will speak on everything that he does. Now comes through the lens of being like, but I'm a child of God and this is my authority on it. I'm very confused or

maybe I'm not confused, but I have to say that I'm confused. It does feel very public facing intentionally. I actually listened to his recent episode of Jordan Peterson out of kind of morbid curiosity. And at one point he does say when he turned to religion that he did think I can be God, I can be Jesus. And he's like, oh, I realized like that's not for my place to be God or Jesus. And it was a very interesting, it was that kind of intellectualizing where again there was a point where I kind of bought into Jordan Peterson as well. That was maybe before he kind of went even more haywire because these men are very clever and very absorbing

and they do have a way of sort of talking about things that feels very intriguing. But actually, when you really boil it down, they're kind of saying a lot of nothing and just talking about themselves. One of the most shocking things to me though on Jordan Peterson's podcast was there was an advert for a company which I want to say was called Birth. I can't remember, but it was basically like an anti-abortion advert about how they'd save so many lives by stopping abortions. I was like, God, this is such a different part of the internet that I just really don't come across. I didn't even really know that that was legal. Also, on this big transition, because I do believe

in redemption and I'm a massive believer in rehabilitation, and I think that with certain crimes that's more difficult. But I think in the early stages of people going into, you know, having to go into prison or something that there is absolute case for rehabilitation being the best thing that can happen for a person and for society. But it's interesting when I guess someone tries to preempt that and rehabilitate their public image and perhaps not necessarily their own actions or worldviews. But I was thinking about what you were saying right at the top, Richie, about that podcast you're listening to, about how much culture has changed. Because so much of what Russell Brand's persona was, was out in the public arena and people

really responded to it and liked it. We lived in a culture where it was quite normal for someone like Russell Brand or Noel Fielding to be dating a much, much younger woman, be seen out and about, get packed with them. Culturally, that has changed a lot and we're a lot more critical now of major age gap relationships. I think that's also another kind of interesting, festering thing under this is the world has also changed along with Russell. Granted, he has made big changes along the way that probably go further than that. But as well about Rumble and these other platforms that have been designed in this idea of preserving free speech. Igan was like, there's a new podcast with Glenn Greenwald, who was one of the guys who published

the stories from the Edward Snowden case. He has a podcast on there. He's a very interesting man, has quite radical views around free speech. Obviously, Russell Brand is on there. He talks about how we have to have free speech because actually, the things that the left would try and use free speech, try and curtail certain things being said are then actually being used and weaponized against us as well. There's actually a really dangerous thing where sometimes we put forward ideas as an ideology of how the world should work. Then actually all that happens is that gets taken by the opposition. That whole kind of universe, it's really interesting because that on rumble, the idea was really for small content creators, it has kind of been co-opted mostly by people that have been pushed out

of those mainstream areas because they've said things like Russell Brown's channel on YouTube got demonetized. He still posts on that, has loads of followers, but he has gone to rumble because he can make money. I wonder if, are we creating a world actually where maybe through sectioning off people with perhaps views that we don't agree with, we're actually incubating them even deeper, even further, because he does have a big cult following and lots of people really, really support him and really believe in his journey. That's not for us really to comment on, but I wonder how much the ecosystem that we're existing

in actually encourages further radicalization by other people when there is that big separation, a big gulf between what we're kind of moralising as what's right and wrong. And is that actually causing more of an issue in the long run? You are so right. I was just nodding furiously. Naomi Klein in her book, Doppelganger, talks about this in such an amazing way. It's exactly what you said. The left is really bad at rehabilitating people. So what that does is, and just to say it plainly, the right has been amazing, specifically conspiracy circles at rehabilitating people and welcoming them almost into the fold with open arms. They have this community-like feeling of, oh, well, you turn, did the world turn their back on you? Yeah, that's because the world is a cruel place that hates this, that, you know, wants to curb free speech, that thinks this, that and that, but we'll look after you.

Don't worry, you're in the right place right now. And it just opens this whole gateway for people to be welcomed and feel supported in these darker circles, because it does feel like they're cut off from everywhere else. And I don't know what I think about the fact that we have allowed that to happen. I don't think it's great that that is an open loss for us. The fact that people, once they feel disconnected from the rest of the world, have a ready community in these very dangerous places. I think that is something that we need to address. And yeah, is it really a surprise that people start going right? I think that's it, isn't it? I think with someone very famous who's made their money in the public eye,

when the left goes to, well, deplatforming as is right in an ongoing case. And at this point in history as well, a lot of what people don't like about Russell Brand is separate from allegations. It is who he has told us he is for many, many years in his words, in his actions, in his very public speech. And so I think this was a time where we were sort of, it was wearing thin, his shtick was wearing thin, post Me Too, et cetera. It was not hitting. So I think either way this is, so I think that effort over the last eight years, as I mentioned, to shift to a more neutral and then to a more sort of evangelical place is very shrewd.

And I will always, I just will look at what, you know, following the money, following the audience. Famous people will court the audiences that they know will serve them, they know will follow them. And I think with everything that's gone on, it's very clear, you know, there's this brewing backlash regardless, an audience getting tired of that carry on. I think you do want your audience not to be feeling those things and so you turn towards a new audience. And I think everything that we're seeing more recently and in the last 10 years, more recently, bodying up to the Trump administration, these big countercultural figures like Jordan Peterson, the American Christian scene, as we've seen, I think that

is an intentional shedding of one audience for another. And it's an audience that he knows will love his story, which is one of redemption. It's one of being ultimately saved by Christ's love, which of course, if you are a believer, you're going to love a convert. You're going to love a story where Christ, who is your savior, is so powerful that someone even world famous, probably that's a stretch, famous in the UK at least and in Europe for being, for kind of loving talking about sex, questioning religion, debauchery, it must be very validating as a believer. And I don't say that sneering at all towards

Christians. I think this is a kind of shrewd attempt to profit and rehabilitate his image. But I don't think that Christians that believe that and believe in redemption are silly or whatever else that might be. But I just think what's the angle? I think it's very interesting to go from one way to the other. And I think it is about seeking audience that you believe will be most receptive. And in this case, of course, it's right wing because of everything you said, Ruchira, and it is a group of people that do believe in the kind of cleansing power, redemptive power of Jesus Christ. I think it's all very shrewd. Just to go, a touch on quickly again, so what a lot of that kind of cohort of usually

men, you know, speakers talk about is this distrust in mainstream media, this conspiracy theory idea of, you know, these higher powers pulling the wool over our eyes when it comes to the truth and them being the ones that are going to be able to transport the truth to us. And you can't do that in mainstream media because you're not allowed to have free speech. In Glenn Greenwald's podcast called System Update, there was an episode where he talks about the Trump administration threatening to deport students who had criticized Israel and threatening the uni's federal funding. That, I think, is an instance where we maybe do have to sit back and think while

we feel really uncomfortable, a bit like what you were saying, Ritera, even uncomfortable with Russell Brank's, I felt the same when he started to have Candice Owens and people on. It's annoying because I actually do think we are in a place where actually we do have to allow probably quite what we might perceive to be heinous opinions and views to be spoken out loud on both sides. Because otherwise what happens is actually sort of like a 1984 situation where you can't really say anything. And because as you said, the right is so much better at being inclusive and also having sort of like a clear linear argument on what they're doing. They're much better at creating kind of totalitarian states where they're in control, much better at organizing than

we are. And so I think that as much as this is kind of slightly separate, it's like he's able to fit and work into that world because of all of those reasons. And it does, we create this kind of exclusionary, maybe slightly fragmentary argument where we find it difficult to, when I say we, I'm very loosely kind of talking about people who are socially, ideologically kind of sitting in a similar place to us. But I think the fact that he's able to, with these allegations, that not be sort of a career ending, and I mean, it certainly wasn't with Trump or many other big male figures. We're in a place where no matter the outcome of what happens, obviously,

he has a right to fair trial. He will still have supporters and those women who came forward very bravely and are probably going through hell right now, it may never feel that they were properly heard because we do live in a world now where actually people are really looking for answers and people are turning to traditional values. Perhaps that's where the answers are. Organized religion, perhaps that's where I'll find the answers. We live in a very fractured, disenfranchised world and I think that that's creating a lot of noise around issues which perhaps should feel slightly more clean cut. I think Russell Brand is just a good example, perhaps, of one facet of an emerging or already

emergent divide in culture, in society, in the world that I think it's time that we need to in society, in the world that I think it's time that we need to kind of more radically challenge the way that we approach having conversations across that bridge. Last, but certainly not least, we are going to discuss the White Lotus finale. So before I say anything else, I'm going to say this, spoilers ahead, spoilers coming. If you haven't seen the finale then leave this episode now and please return when you have. I repeat, spoilers ahead for this final section. Earlier this week the third season of Mike White's dark comedy drama White Lotus came to a dramatic conclusion with gunfire, poison drinks, dirty deals, some reconciliations, but mostly just shock revelations. Rick and Chelsea, everyone's

favorite star-crossed age gap lovers, died alongside about three or four other people. Tim Ratliff came within a coconut hair of murdering 90% of his immediate family with a dodgy cocktail. Season 1's Belinda got rich and the three bitchy best friends made peace at least for as long as the boat ride back to the mainland. However, not all reviewers seem to think it came to a satisfying or successful conclusion. Forbes called the episode a crushing disappointment. The Guardian gave it 3 out of 5 stars and said it had the show's least satisfying ending ever. The Independent labeled it a violent end to a bad season. And Elle concluded that the finale's, quote, plain and predictable ending wrapped up its worst season yet. Ouch.

There were also good reviews, of course, and I think the majority of the audience will be hoping to return to the White Lotus universe sooner rather than later. I know that I am. Before we get into the hashtag discourse of it all though, I have to ask, and we, us three, have not talked about this yet. It's been hell and horror. What did you both think of the finale? I really liked it. I definitely have some points I can't wait to talk about that maybe, maybe feel like slightly this like sad sinking feeling in my tummy. And maybe I wish things could be slightly different for certain characters and how they panned out. But I really liked it.

And I was left with this feeling of, I think that was a really interesting finale. I think it was something that I would like, I can't wait to discuss on this podcast. I'm so annoyed because I was trying so hard to avoid spoilers and I'd done so well. And then literally as I went to watch it, I went on Twitter and saw some stuff. Did I like it as a finale? Do you know what, in hindsight now,

I was with my friend Poppy last night having dinner and she hasn't watched any of it. And I'm quite jealous because I think this series really would have benefited from being able to binge it, from watching it back to back because I think it was slow enough to the point where when you got to the next one, you kind of, it was like a bit laggy. Whereas I think if you watched it all through, it would have been maybe stronger. But I thought it was interesting. It was a much more poetic ending than the other deaths that we've seen. And it did, yeah, the feeling in the paper, it was sadder. I think it was interesting. It was a much more poetic ending than the other deaths that

we've seen. And it did, yeah, the feeling in the paper, it was sadder, I thought, than the others. And it wasn't as funny. I thought it was kind of like almost like a theatre show. Like the end was like all the cannons going off and finally like all the explosions and everything's tied up. My favourite actually bit was the three blondes, the three friends. I just thought actually that was really a clever, good examination because the whole way through we're thinking they're such shit friends. Then you get to this point and you're like, maybe that is just what some female friendships are like. They actually do really fucking love each other. They are really shit friends to each other, but they do mean the

world to each other. And I think that that as a thread, I thought was really strong. There's so much to say on this. So Beth, what did you think? I think I sit sort of maybe halfway between actually, no, I think I just agree with you both in that I'm still obsessed with the show. And I thought what was right about the show was really right. The tragedy was especially sharp. I think even more so than the others. I felt it, it felt Shakespeare and it felt very, very sharp. I mean, obviously the deaths of the characters was very heartbreaking because it was someone, you know, two people in love who kind of had this just glimmer where they could have got out, could have been, you know, on

this fantastic path of peace, redemption. He's happy for the first time and whatever, and then they're blowing in the koi pond. I mean, Tim Ratliff's story, he's thinking about doing familiar side. That's very dark. And so the darkness is very, very fully fleshed out. I just think something, what worked worked, what didn't work, didn't work. And I think maybe it was the payoff didn't seem as huge. I left with questions about a lot. We don't see a lot of the fallout of this huge tragedy, the shootout, essentially this gun massacre. They all just get on the boat and sort of, haha, what a fantastic vacation. I wish that we'd seen a little bit more. I mean, the three women see this, the friends see this happen. They see this bloke get shot within feet of them and they're able to zip off home.

The character of Gaetok, he has this great transition of man who is actually not very bought into the idea of violence, but is torn between wanting the girl and wanting to prove himself and also wanting to be this pacifist. He shoots someone to death and then is able to kind of go, I feel fine about this. I just felt the things they were nagging at me. And I just think that's the unresolved moments. And maybe that's just me being kind of a petty TV watcher have been lingering with me. It might be when I rewatch it, I just have to turn it off just before the very end. I don't know. Like the criticism of it. I don't know if I'm being unfair. Richard, do you have any like big criticisms? Because I think you're a very, you're a shrewd TV watcher.

Richard Oh, that's a nice compliment. So the thing, my big beef with the finale is just, I felt like Saxon's redemption arc, I felt like his storyline was one of the most interesting. And the fact that this alpha masculine guy has completely toppled throughout the series and he just almost has to rebuild himself. It feels like we get a glimmer of him reading the book at the end, that image of the three siblings coming in and he's just like completely, you know, like sunglasses on, not like attuned to the world. And at the end we see him reading a book about life. That motif was really interesting. And I guess I just really wanted to pick at that more because especially post-adolescence, all of this kind of idea of masculinity, what is the answer to new concepts of what it is to be a man. I was like, this is a really interesting thread.

I really want to dig into that. And it's not that he didn't go there. I think it's just I wanted to see what would happen next. And I agree with you, the same with the Ratcliffs. Ratcliffs or is it Ratliffs? Ratliff, I think. Yeah, Ratlifts. When they were on the boat and the dad reveals almost like 50% of the truth, to be honest. He did not say what had actually happened, which is they're all going to be poor now. I just was like, we need another series just to see what happens with that and the mom and the fact that she's way too old to be uncomfortable, but she's going to have to be uncomfortable. What does that look like? And also my final thing is I think it was an amazing

storyline with Walter Goggins and Amy Lewood, Chelsea and Rick, but I felt so hard done by with Amy Lewood and just it felt like she was the sacrificial lamb this whole series. And I think that is really meaningful. And I think there is a point to that this idea that if you never confront your pain, you are dragging down the people you love most and they are just pawns in this whole situation. And rather than being able to move forward with your life, they will just crumble with you. I thought that was so beautiful and so interesting, but I don't know, I just felt such pain for her story arc. I just felt like she's so good. She's so pure. This makes me so sad. Yeah, I agree. I think it's so interesting that there's so much spirituality in this

and every single facet has its own kind of like awakening. And as you said, Beth, it also does feel really Shakespearean, like when he's about to murder them all with the pineapple smoothie, the fact that star-crossed lovers die together. Then you have like, there's so much of it that feels, yeah, spiritual like a play. I think for me, it just felt like, like you said, there's so many threads that weren't picked up. There were so many bits that I wanted more of it, almost like they took on too much because actually each set of characters had quite a lot going on. It was never fully really fleshed out. I would have actually loved to know what the Ratliff dad had done. I would have found that really interesting. I'm interested in more about what

happened with Tanya and Greg. Greg, again, I just felt like there wasn't enough. Even with Rick's dad, when he's like, I've got a daughter living in Thailand, I thought that might have been Chloe. I don't know. I just felt like all the component parts were there. But the way the puzzle was put together this time for me wasn't as satisfying, even though I did think that Rick and Chelsea, I thought that was really poignant. I quite like it when things end, kill off the characters so you don't want to see Dykes. I think that's actually more satisfying than when it's someone that you don't really care about. I just think part of it just felt slightly empty to me, but I don't know if that was the point, if the idea was it was meant to make you feel that way. I definitely think

that the first two seasons for me were much stronger, but then I wonder if this was stronger in a different way that I can't quite put my finger on. But my main big criticism is I think that there were so many things in it that felt really hack. That being said, again, I'm thinking again, it's quite Shakespearean. All the dreams of the times when Jason Isaac's character is going to die or going to kill himself or going to kill his family and then it never happens. There was just a lot of bits that felt sort of like to me quite cheap inserts into what is normally a very whip smart show, even though I thought the writing was still really good. But I don't know if I'm being too heavily critical. Maybe I do need to rewatch it. I don't think you are. It's a safe place for it. I think this one will be quite

satisfying to watch again without, because I just was nervous the whole way through. I think the pacing was a little bit unusual and that they could have probably fit in a lot of the things that you point out that maybe felt like they were lacking, like a bit more of Greg, a bit more. But instead they just had quite a lot of Jason Isaacs moping about on his, you know, Lorazepam getting his willy out. I think there was a lot of that you go, okay, get it, he's in turmoil. I don't need to see as much as he was a great performer. I was like, I could see something else at this point. I just, I just, the Chelsea and Rick is lingering with me, the rest I can forgive. Although actually,

I think I love that it was truly tragic. And it was the message that baby girl, you cannot save that man. I saw a comment, I think it was on TikTok that said, don't worry guys, Chelsea is looking down on us right now. Rick is looking up, which I love Rick. That's my boy. But of course, like it's a black hole of a character. And I think a great lesson there. I really want to know. And this is all silly gossip, but I really want to know what happened with Walton Goggins and Amy Lou Wood because there's a lot of chatter at the moment that because he is now posting big carousels on Instagram, photos of basically just the two of them with Silver Springs by Fleetwood Mac. There's rumors that they blocked each other or they don't follow each other but are posting this being like we were enmeshed, we were

soulmates. I think he's married a long time so I'm not speculating that way, a lot of other people are, but I think probably what happened is they're both actors, he's very earnest, it was a very intense shoot for however many months and so it's just like, wow, what an experience. But the rumour mill has been, and I think it's quite harmless, but has been turning to be like, what went on? Are they in love? Did they fall out? I've been really enjoying the speculation. I know. I'm just an absolute freak. And as soon as I saw that they had passed away in the show, passed away, they were literally murdered. It wasn't a peaceful death by any

stretch. I don't know why I said that. Yeah, I just. All the rumours have been giving me a sense of peace because it's like in my mind they are still in love, but it's just the real life actors and that makes me feel happy. But actually he is a married man and they're probably just doing a marketing ploy that is a very 2025 page from the book of marketing. Probably I'm, oh God, I'm so gullible. Do we, can we, can we clarify,

we all fancy him so much or is it just me again? I didn't fancy him whilst he was like, honestly for seven out of the eight episodes, but it's that final bit where he says, that's the plan when she says, we're gonna be together in the afterlife. That something flicked in my brain and I just, I just saw it and I, I guess that's the, that's the power of amazing writing.

That's the power of amazing acting. The same like in challenges, you're not really looking at the person. It's everything. It's the vibes. It's the way they connect with somebody else that makes them so fancyable to me. No, do you know what that is? That is a, that is a man bread crumming you.

And then girl give me nothing and then gives you everything. That is what it is. It's the whole way through. He's just been like, she's besotted with him. She'll do anything for him. She's trying to save him. He's just sort of like, she's like an annoying nut on his shoulder that he's trying to like flick away.

And then she says, do you think we're going to be together forever? And he just really off-handedly goes, that's the plan. The reason that's so, I agree, that is when I flanced him because it's like all along he's been keeping you on tenterhooks. You kind of don't even really know how he feels about you. And then he's just turned around and is like, obviously I want to be with you forever. That is like the feeling you'd get if you manage to change someone. Do you know what I mean? That's why it's so attractive because it's like you finally, you've got the emotionally unavailable man. And then it makes you think, oh my God, this whole time he's been absolutely in love with me.

That did make me fancy him. And even when she comes back, I think the way that she fancies him so much makes him more attractive as well. The way that she's just, and she's such a gorgeous, lovable character. And the fact that she just sees good in him and is so attracted to him. And she's shrewd and she's wise. Like she sees through the other characters and she's quite a good judge of character. So I think that makes you trust even more. Although she has that really self-aware moment when she talks about why she wants to be with him. When she's like, it's because I see us as this yin and yang and we're either going to go my way or we're going to go his way. There's so much non-subtle foreshadowing, even that thing of like, are we going to be

together? That's the plan. They are together ultimately, as you say that in the afterlife. So yeah, I loved the 18 parts story series that he did. People were saying that maybe it's him like as the character saying goodbye, because there is a bit where they're like on FaceTime to Rick and he's like not answering. So maybe that was that. I just think if the unfollowing is a marketing ploy that kind of, I just think again, it's a bit cheap. But it is because if it's not, it also is quite silly because these people, do they not know how the internet works? People are going to notice if you unfollow someone. I did. I really, really love those characters. I want to know what did you think at the end when Belinda takes the money, where were you thinking that was going to go? And

also the way she's like, yeah, he phoned me and I said that I would never tell anyone. I'm like, guys, your phones are going to be like, someone's going to be able to hear that call. You're obviously going to get caught. I know. I was just on tenterhooks. I was like, he's rigged the boat. It's the boat again. They're going to die on the boat. She's not going to get off the mainland, blah, blah, blah. I've seen so much discourse around how people are claiming she's done going to get off the mainland, blah, blah, blah. I've seen so much discourse around how people are claiming she's done the exact same thing that Tanya did to her in series one, which is promised Paunchai that she was going to set up a business with him, which is what Tanya did to her

except just to turn around and run off with the money. But it's definitely not the same thing. Natasha Rothwell did an interview and she was like, guys, it's definitely not the same thing. And Natasha Rothwell did an interview and she was like, guys, it's definitely not the same thing. She was talking about how with Pawnchai, it was just very much a conversation. They never made any deeper plans. Also, they just met on holiday. They had a romance. She has a child. It's not the same thing. Whereas Tanya went into details about this is where we'll set up. This is the amount of money I'll put into it, when's the start date and literally the plans were in motion. I kind of like the idea that this character just doesn't have to be morally pure in a bankrupt world and fighting against it constantly and winning nothing.

I felt like that was really satisfying because it's like, why can't she win? If she's playing the game, so be it. Fuck, fuck the moralistic attitudes towards what she should have done. I don't give a fuck. Let her have the money. Let her be happy. I was so nervous for her for this whole series and I'm glad she got her happy ending. What about you? I mean, there was no justice to be had. The whole point is the shady characters know how to operate shadily without getting caught. That's why they kind of take off and never return. So it was very much like, I want her to win. I want her when she's like, why can't I just be rich for whatever it is? Why can't I just be rich for five minutes? Like, yes, absolutely.

She's grafted. And yeah, with Pawnshite, it is just pillow talk. It's not the same. I think we need to remember when we're watching TV, just that kind of media literacy, just like a parallel is not a mirror. It's not, it is her in a different situation. It's kind of like a full, it's a full circle moment, but it's not, oh my God, she's become, she is a grafter with business sense

who's gonna make her own hotel. And I hope we end up at her hotel eventually. But yeah, I found it. I was like, don't criticize Belinda. I mean, maybe there are a few things, but don't criticize my girl. What, can I ask you, what did you make of the three women? Cause I thought that speech, I really, that really touched me when she was like, I'm glad your face is beautiful. I'm glad your life is beautiful. And I'm just glad that I get to be sat at the table. So good.

I agree. I've seen people saying, wow, girl, what a load of nothing in reply to that. And I completely disagree. I found it really moving. And also I have to say, Carrie Coon's acting is just sublime because I get how, if anyone else had said that it could just mean nothing, but I completely understood what she meant. It felt like it got to the root of something, which is sometimes it's really fucking hard to be with your friends and just to realize, I feel like an absolute fucking failure and that can cloud those experiences. But

actually when you reduce it to being vulnerable, just sharing that sometimes I find it hard being around you guys, but ultimately we've spent so much time together that I do love you. And I'm sorry that sometimes that negativity or that fear and that vulnerability and that jealousy can cloud that because actually I really fucking love you. And that's what I felt. I thought it was amazing. What did you think? I loved it as well. I think the first, as I realized that I wasn't going to get the kind of, because they are such fully like imperfect women, they're like women's rights,

but they're doing women's wrongs. When I realized, okay, we're not actually going to get this imploding, we're not going to get them going away on separate boats, I came to terms with it very quickly and I thought, actually, this is very beautiful. It's much more true to life and it sits with you a lot longer. Obviously, Carrie Coon, yeah, that monologue, she is unbelievable. I read a, it was a Vogue piece that said, we should all be Laurie's or we should all be more like Laurie. And it's about the power of this monologue and actually how the woman who wrote the Vogue piece, which we'll link, she kind of starts crying and she gets it and her husband doesn't

really get it. And I think it is something very, women will get this. And I'll quickly read a piece I thought was very good. I've judged the trio all season for talking shit for conversations as flimsy as their exquisite resort looks, but Laurie brought the group down to earth. Without saying so explicitly, she argued that female friendships can be ugly and maybe they should be allowed to be if love is at the heart of them. As one of my best friends texted last night, long-time female friendship transcends sticky stages or petty fights. It's deeper and more abiding, even when, like most all relationships, it's

messy and imperfect. And I think the piece is very good. We could probably do a whole episode about that, their dynamic, but I loved it. And actually I think Mike White, he blew it out of the water then. Oh my God, Mike White, the white lotus. I've just got goosebumps. I've never put that together before. I had this realization this week too. I'm so glad. I felt like a complete idiot. And I was like, Oh, I guess everyone's just known this. White Lotus, Mike White. I just connected that too. Did you know that Anony? Even when you were saying it Beth, I was like, what was she talking about? Of course, Mike White wrote the White Lotus took me until I reacted

to be like, Oh, I see what you're saying. That is so funny. Oh my God. We give the good stuff on this show. Yeah. Nobody else is talking about that. I feel like those three, I know apart from the fact that obviously they got on the boat, seemingly I'm traumatized. Those three are the only three where I felt fully satiated by the arc of their characters. And even though I think the Rat Lift children did go on an interesting journey and we haven't even talked about Piper and her recognizing her privilege and her being so happy about the fact that her

daughters realized that she does actually need to have organic vegetables and five star cuisine or whatever. That really, really made me laugh. I don't know what it is because it's exactly what you said, Beth, at the beginning, which is like the things that are right are so right, but there seems to be these weird like gaps in the middle, which just maybe is a pacing issue. Maybe that's meant to be challenging us as the watcher to feel uncomfortable. I'm sure I always imagine that Mike White is a genius much greater than I am. So, I'm sure he's done it on purpose. I unfortunately, I'm too dumb to know what that is. So, I dislike the bits that I thought weren't right. But I'm sure I just need someone to write a long read explaining to me what it

was that I felt. Because it did feel like something was missing. I don't know how many times I'm going to say that. Can you rank your favorite seasons at one, two and three? I'd be interested to know. I go three, two, one. And I want to recommend a piece that really kind of put all the juggle, the jigsaw pieces in place for me about the season by Magdalene Taylor, who I've shouted out on the podcast before. She's done a newsletter on Substack called White Lotus and the Pain of Desire. And the reason why I put number three first is I think it's doing something more interesting. And even though it's imperfect and all the characters don't necessarily have these conclusions that feel satisfying, I feel like the first two who done it felt very much like race is bad, sex is transactional.

Whereas with this, it felt like it got to the human condition to me. And I know that sounds so pretentious, but I feel like I've been thinking about this quite a lot. This idea that we're all striving for peace and we're all battling our demons at all times. And that is a very solitary, lonely, sometimes tragic journey. And it's also the thing that makes Shakespeare so incredible because he gets to the heart of that. It's the thing that makes Greek tragedies so amazing because it gets to the heart of that. And I think even though this wasn't perfect, it had a sense of that for me where I just felt this deep sense of we're all just trying to be on this earth and find peace. And I think it's much more interesting conversation to have that was like 5D for me. What about you

guys? Mine is 2, 3, 1, I think. I think season two, Albury Plaza is bloody Italy. I think the locals got a really good, because again, that's another thing we haven't talked about. I think the local characters got a lot more in season two. Three, I actually have loved this series. One, it's fantastic. It's the introduction, but it just doesn't quite get where these get. So that's my ranking. Anoni? Well, I see I agree with everythingarie said about being Greek tragedy and Shakespearean. And I think that was really, I agree with the elements of it. It was just,

I think the, yeah, the pacing for me, but I think maybe I do agree with you, Beth, I'd say two, three, one, because I totally, sorry, I totally agree with everything you said, Richarie. I just still think, I think all of those elements coexist with the problems that I found. But I think it set it up to take it away from that first series. So I think the first series did something. And I also think that is clever because like that other show that we watch, which I now can't remember with Megan Farhi that was kind of trying to do the white lotus was the perfect couple. I think it's cleverly kind of, or might quite or the white lotus universe has realized that people are trying to mirror what they did in that first season and perhaps that isn't

too hard to do. And what this series maybe has done is ushered us into a new generation. So I'm interested to see where he goes next because, and I now kind of do hope that it does never end because it does feel like the nice thing about it is it isn't just cut and paste which is what we kind of thought it might have been when we very first, me and never end because it does feel like that the nice thing about it is it isn't just cut and paste, which is what we kind of thought it might have been when we very first me and Beth first spoke about it. We were like, is it going to read just the same thing? It did end up being a different thing. So for that, maybe I do have to put it on top, but now I'm going to go to first. No, I completely get your rankings. My final thing is I saw a tweet about this and now I have

to read the original story. But Walter Goggins in GQ talking about how on a personal level this was really cyclical going back to Thailand because the last time he went 20 years ago was just shortly after his wife died by suicide. So coming back and reconfiguring the place, seeing so many of the sites that he saw during a really tragic point of his life was on a personal level so deeply moving and fulfilling. And I was just so close to tears. And even now I feel close to tears. But yeah, so good. Oh, we love that man. One last thing for me actually, and I wish that this could apply to Rick and Chelsea, but I saw Patrick speak. I think he spoke to the Hollywood Reporter and said he'd heard rumors of an all-Star series and then Mike White replied to that and said he'd love to do it. So I'm actually hoping I'm

really brought into the idea of an All-Star series. Imagine that. I'd even have more Greg. I'd love more Greg actually. So Mike White, you're probably listening to this. We're in. We'll star. Oh my God. Yes. Also, did you see him responding to the allegations of the shit series shit series and he was like I'm edging you bedroom and you want to be a power bottom That's your problem. Get out my bedroom. Oh my god. Maybe I'm trying to be a power bottom Thank you so much for listening this week Just a quick reminder that next week we'll be asking for all of your opinions on our upcoming book club All Fours by Miranda July. So keep reading or go grab your copy ASAP. If you've enjoyed the podcast, please do leave us a rating or if you really want to spoil

us a review on your podcast app. Five stars please. You can also follow us on Instagram and TikTok at Everything isentPod and on X as at EICPod. See you next week. Bye! This episode is brought to you by London Neutropics. Their delisious adaptogenic coffee is made with premium heaf-festered taro mushroom extracts and designed to help you stay balanced and elevate your day. As a huge procrastinator, I love the Flow Blend because it helps me to stay focused without the crash.

I usually have a normal coffee in the morning, but a second one would make me way too jittery. So instead, Flow has been the perfect hack for my afternoon slump. I love Flow for that exact reason. I've been drinking it instead of my usual afternoon coffee and honestly, I massively prefer it. I still feel like I'm treating myself

while keeping my focus sharp without any of the jitters at the end of the workday. Okay, turns out we're all obsessed with Flo because that's my favorite too. I can't believe how productive I feel after drinking it. It's made with the best in class, Heifers-Deterre's Mane, and Rodeo Life. Rodeola, Rosea, two powerful adaptogens

that have been studied for their cognitive benefits around focus, mental clarity, and stress resistance. I love the taste of coffee and the boost it gives, but I definitely struggle with anxiety if I have multiple cups a day. Flow has been a game changer for me. If you want to stay sharp and skip the crash, visit londonnewtropics.com to try it for me.