Everything Is Content - UK Censorship, Problematic Millennial Feminism & The Drama

Episode Date: April 10, 2026

Helllo friends! Welcome to the EIChapel! This week we're making a vow to you all to cover interesting stories, dive deep into the discourse and share yet another bouquet of excellent recommendations.First up we're discussing a pretty grim story out of Manchester, after a school librarian revealed she had been asked to remove a host of book titles from her shelves. These books included Heartstopper, The Da Vinci Code, 1984, We Should All Be Feminists and Men Who Hate Women by Laura Bates. We discuss the importance of reading beyond your age group and why we think these decisions fail children rather than protect them.Secondly we're untangling some thorny feminist internet discourse, after one Gen Z account accused millennial feminism of being sex-obsessed, shallow and misguided. They wrote "Gen Z is kinda clocking millennial/Gen X feminists tea. Y’all said/say men are trash but then advocate for having casual sex with many of them and partaking in kinks that may be harmful. It never made sense." We unpack this idea and interrogate the feminist messaging that we grew up with and whether our attitudes to sex really have been harmful to younger generations.And finally- Kristoffer Borgli's new Zendaya/R-Pattz fronted film The Drama. If you've not heard about it, then congratulations on being born literally this morning. To catch you up: what starts as a gorgeous meet-cute becomes something else after Emma (Zendaya) shares the worst thing she's ever done during a pre-wedding dinner with her maid of honour (Alana Haim), her husband (Mamoudou Athie), and Charlie (Edward Cullen Robert Pattinson). Don't worry- we signpost our spoilers very clearly.Thanks so much to Cue Podcasts for the edit and for all of you listening at home!----------This week Ruchira was loving MAFs and reformer pilates, Oenone was loving The XX radio on Spotify and hating Leave The World Behind, and Beth was loving learning her lesson about ChatGPT and Dandelion Is Dead by Rosie Storey.School book banning escalates in the UK as Greater Manchester secondary school censors scores of books - Index on CensorshipQueer author from Essex devastated after school removes book - BBC NewsMen Who Hate Women by Laura BatesNo, Millennial Feminism Did Not Trick You by Michaele Makusha on SubstackRoger Ebert - The Drama review by Robert Daniels Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm Beth. I'm Richerra. And I'm Anoni. And this is Everything is Content, the podcast that keeps you on top of the discourse. We're deep in the internet so you don't have to be, covering everything from internet trends to long reads and headlines. We're the wedding bouquet of content, flying through the air, ready to be caught in your outstretched hands. This week on the podcast, we're talking about a school library banning books, millennial feminism under fire, a new film, The Drama. Don't worry, though.

We will be saving spoilers until the very end. end and we'll give you a very clear warning. Follow us on Instagram, Everything is Content Pod, and make sure you hit follow on your podcast player app so you never miss an episode. First, as always, I'm going to ask Rich Hira, what have you been loving this week? So I have genuinely been scrambling from the bottom of the barrel to find something. I've been living my life this Easter weekend, which is great, but not so great for the podcast. The two things that I have desperately pulled together are maths, Australia, which is back on

screens and trashy and terrible and great. And then the second thing, which is, I think genuinely two years too late, I've been doing reformer Pilates and I've been really loving it. I'm so here for your reformer. I don't know what to call it. Reformation. You were pro reformer last week. You were pro reforming something. This time you're reformer Pilates, the writing is on the wall. I don't know what reformer Pilates is for anyone else that is a bit confused. Can you explain what is the difference between that and other Pilates? So I don't know if people have been seeing the machines on their Instagram. I'm now getting targeted ads every single day for it,

but it's these like warlike contraptions with like harnesses and this like movie along carriage on this. I don't even know what to explain it. It's almost like if you've seen a hack squat before, it's like that except reverse because you're lying on it and pushing up and down. They do all of the kind of similar things of normal Pilates where you have this ball, which looks like a fun ball, until you put it between your legs and then you use it to basically move your abs, contract your abs back and forth.

And it is the most excruciating pain of your life. But after, I felt like I had a six pack. I looked in the mirror and I didn't, but it felt like I did. Oh, it's so far. And also sometimes, so they have these like stirrup things and sometimes you put the leg, your legs in the stirrup. Some classes are like the one Ratured said that are like more traditional parties than you're doing really painful like isometric holes or they make you do 100 wraps of something and you're like, I'm going to kill you to the instructor. Other times you're putting feet. in the stirrups.

And because you're on this like slidey thing, you're just swinging your legs around in the air and you could kind of just lie on your back and pretend that you're just playing. It can be very fun, but you can make it harder. When I first went, you get the option of making the springs heavier or not

and I just would every time just not put any more weight on. So I was basically just like bouncing around. It's just quite fun. It feels like you're a baby. You know when babies lie back and they have those like dangly things on top of them and they're just like rolling around. Tommy time.

It genuinely feels like an adult, version of that, except you are genuinely contracting every single muscle you own at the same time. Yeah, you use muscles you didn't even know that you had. Truly. What about maths? Because I actually have watched a few episodes of maths, and again, it looks like a really good season. Yeah, it's the bit I'm at, they've brought in this, like, MAGA, adjacent guy, and he's awful. And I am kind of weighing up all of my decisions to watch it because I'm getting so angry.

He keeps saying things like the woman he's been paired with brings too much masculine energy to the table. He wants a subservient woman. And obviously it makes for good TV. There is so much drama. There's so much chaos. There are blow-ups at the dinner table. Let me tell you. But I'm finding it also really stressful, which is why I sheepishly have brought it to the table.

I don't know whether it's raising my cortisol a bit at the moment. No, it always does this to me. and I just, I don't think I've ever fully watched an entire city, because they're fucking long, these Australians. Like they really, really go on. By the end, I'm so disillusioned with it. I start the same as you. I'm like, fantastic trash.

And then I'm like, this is actually carved a bit my soul away. Maths like Mormon wives is one that I just literally never watched. And I do hear everyone being like, Maths Australia is amazing. The most random person I was listening to my podcast said that the other day. And I was like, God, this really is. I'm so blind to it. Like I have no idea. But I just, I don't think I can do it.

I think I just have to be the correspondent that has no correspondence on this topic. Every time you say it, you say it with this sense of shame and all I feel is jealousy of you. I think it's better not to know. I think it's better to close your eyes. I'm actually weighing up whether I go on a fast of reality TV soon. I feel a bit sick of myself. No, it's so good. I mean, Chris Fleming on a podcast with Caleb here and when Caleb asked Chris Fleming why he doesn't have a podcast.

And Chris says, I believe something awaits for me in the divine for refusing. I think that is you in reality TV. I think something awaits for you in the divine. It's like me with AI, which actually I've got confession about this in a moment. I believe something awaits me in the divine for resisting. So whole fast. Oh, 100%. I think I probably do so many other things that I'm not supposed to do there that I'm still

going to be put in a fiery depths valve. I mean, we do have a podcast as well. Yeah, that is sacrilegious, unfortunately. What have you been loving this weekend only? I'm a bit like you were chariot. So I wanted to have a film recommendation. I made my whole family sit down and watch leave the world behind, which for some reason I'd misremembered as a good film with Julie Roberts.

And they were all like, this is so shit. But then we couldn't stop watching it because it's so stressful. And also it is obviously at the minute, it's weird. I forgot it's got lots of parallels with kind of the way the world feels like it's ending right now. So it was not only stressful, but it was bad. But it did get us all talking about prepping. And I can't remember if I mentioned a podcast, but there was a time about four years ago when I got really obsessed with the idea of becoming a prepper.

and my mum, for some reason, was just really going on with it. And I was like, what will I do with Astrid? Like, where would go to the loo? I was thinking about, like, having loads of water. Anyway, so that was that. Don't watch it. Or do. It's kind of fine, but it's shit.

But the thing that I actually have been loving, because all I'm doing at the minute is running. And at the time of the recording, I'm doing a marathon in like three or four days. What I did yesterday, and it really revolutionized my life, was the XX performed for the first time in eight years. And so I just went on the XX crystallized radio.

video on Spotify and it was bang out after bang out after bang out and I woke up this morning in my luteal phase so angry at the world and then I put that playlist on I went for a run and I ran really angrily but also quite happily because of the music and I think that playlist for any millennial is basically just like kryptonite mixed with ecstasy mix with just endorphins so I would recommend getting into that. Oh that sounds so excellent that sounds amazing I'm genuinely going to go find that because I need to start running now the sun's out again. So X excellent. Ha ha.

I'm sorry about that. We can cut that. I listened to this album. I must have been like 19 years old. My first, no, my second after school job, I mean after school had, I graduated high school in M&S. So I'd be driving like five in the morning listening to this. It was actually such a vibe. But now whenever I hear it, I'm like, oh my God, I'm about to go to M&S and hang up pants and measure for bras.

So it's kind of like a twisted. I don't remember having fun in the club. I remember stressing about parking. Oh. It's because I was on the radio of it on Spotify. I know how it aggregates all the other music. So it was like one of the songs was the MGMT one that's like, do, do, do, do, do, do, do.

And, oh, no, it wasn't kids. It was the other one, which I can't remember how it goes now. But I looked up and I couldn't believe that I was 13 when that came out because the lyrics are like, I'm going to go to Paris and shoot some cocaine and then we'll get some wives. No, shoot some heroin. And then we'll get some and all this stuff. And I remember so clearly like you, Beth,

but on the way to school, McCall with my mum, singing every lyric. I don't remember ever paying attention to that was what the words were, but I was certainly singing them. And all of the songs when we around that age were all about live fast and die young, like, take Johnson's die by the time of the 30. And I remember being like, that is how you should live. And I was just reflecting on that as I train for my marathon and take my creatine

and, you know, have my green juice. I was like, I've gone, it's all gone tits up. Life comes at you fast. Well, have you been loving this week, Beth? So I first had to make my AI confession. I used chat GPT for the first time, my inaugural time. I did it because I was having like an information overload. All I needed to do was find out where the drama was playing because we are going to be going to talk about that at the end of this episode. And so Google was being sheer. It was sort of serving me pages of ads. And I was like,

I just can't do this. I've got vertigo. I've got a headache. I'm allowed to this. I'm allowed my one search and it's going to be a good one. And so I wrote in a really clear prompt. I was like, where it's showing the drama. Near me, I told it where I was. I was like, you don't need to tell me the times. You just need to tell me like what cinemas. And it's, so Jesse's cinema's really far away. And I was like, that's bonkers.

It was like, you should go. So I'm really near Stratford. So I thought it'd be like, Stratford view, get on your merry way. It was like, you need to go to My Land. And I know you shouldn't do this. I should have just abandoned ship at this point. But I sort of argued with it. I was like, is it not on in Stratford?

And it was like, no, it's not on in Stratford. So I was like, I'm going to go to Google. It was on in Stratford. showings. And so I went, obviously, you're not supposed to argue with it. It was a sunk cost at this point. I was like, it is on in Stratford. The seven showings today. Why didn't you say Stratford? It went, it's all sold out. That's why I didn't put it in. I went, all right, let me double check. None of them were sold out. So I went back again because I'm so petty. I was like, none of them are sold out. So what are you talking about? And it went, I know what's happened here.

You wanted to see the drama, but I've been searching for the drama. And I've been searching for the drama. I was like, I'm actually going insane. I can't believe people let this do their jobs. It was, I wish I'd never bothered. I've completely learned my lesson. It cost me so much more brain hours, probably like spaffed away like a whole glass of water. I'm so sorry.

But I couldn't believe how useless. Like people fall in love with this thing. That's hilarious. There was a really funny tweet where someone asked Chapchipti how many hours are there in strawberry and they were like, in strawberry, there are two hours.

And the guy's like, there's three hours. And they're like, you're getting confused. the word strawberry has two hours. It's straw and then B R-R-R-Y. And it goes on and it's going back and back and forth these having this fight with it and it just will not. It's like you're getting confused. The first letter is Astra or B-E-R-R-Y.

And it's like round around. So yeah, I think you can't trust it. I can't believe it. It does feel like one of those stupid arguments sometimes you have with a partner though where they're like wrong and like steadfast wrong and they will not change. So I guess I kind of see why people are falling in love with it.

That's definitely someone's boyfriend online, you know. That's me. I couldn't get over like how it was talking to me as well. Like when it got something wrong, it was so sniveling. It was so like, it was like the little rat man from Harry Potter. Peter Petterbury. It was like Peter Pettergrow. And I was like, oh, I actually never.

It made me feel as viscerally angry as if I was talking to Peter Patrick. So I've massively learnt my lesson. I just got, I cannot believe this. One foot. People go, yeah, old Wymie Boy from the book that was. was written by, who knows, we don't know. Also, I love that this was what have you been loving this week? Have you been loving arguing with Charger-Pit?

Or have you been hating it? I'm confused. I've been hating it. I had to make my confession because you've both been very candid about AI usage or not usage. And I just thought, I've got to tell everyone. And I learned my lesson. I'm never going back because it just bullshit to you. Oh, do you have any confessions because I actually do have one confession.

I farted in my Reform a Pilates class last week. I thought you were going to be an AI related. No, no. Just like a general. That's such a pure confession. Literally for like days after I was like locked into shame. But I'm ready to share it far and wide now. I thought you're supposed to.

Like that's okay. Yeah. You totally. If you ever go to like a quite a spiritual yoga class where they're really taking it seriously, they often will say to you like you're probably far. Because you are just releasing releasing things. You have your limbs all over the place. I don't understand why more people aren't doing it.

I think they are. I really think they are. I remember watching Jerry Halliwell's yoga My mom had probably the videotape We're going back that far And we used to just do it for a bit of fun Like it's quite easy And she says in it it's okay of you fart

And I was like well if it's okay for Jerry Halliwell Oh I love Jerry It's absolutely okay for me So Richerra you're off the hook Was it allowed for? It was like a four out of ten It was like you could definitely hear it If you were next to me

But the whole class didn't hear it Yeah fair I have definitely when I've had my musical Really loudly just farted walking on the street And then remembered that just because I can't hear it. The other people can, I've got my noise-canceling headphones on, which has really put me into like a false sense of security

that the world is just blasting out, tape that or something. Anyway. Your music taste. We do. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very eclectic. We fart, you know.

It's just something that happens. Any confessions before we round off anymore? I mean, I actually have got a recommendation as well, which. Oh, yeah. I should get to. I mean, everyone's thinking about farting now. Drop them in the comments, girlies. I do have a recommendation.

If anyone wants to confess at the end, but I have to, I read a really good book. I bought a book on a Saturday and I finished it on Tuesday. It was perfect about Holly reading. It was, Dandelion is Dead by Rosie Story. It's quite newly out. I think it came out last month and I've been very excited to read it

since I heard the premise. So it's basically this man called Jake meets a woman called Dandelion on a dating, app. They talk a little bit and then he doesn't hear from her for about six months or maybe just over six months. But then she replies, they meet. It's very romantic, immediate spark. Brilliant. The problem is dandelion is dead, as the total suggests. And the person pretending to be her is her younger sister. Not a spoiler. That is literally on the inside cover. But such a good premise, such a good premise to fumble as well, but not at all. I think it's so well written. It

completely, obviously completely captivated me because I did not put it down. Really charming, really good, really good on grief. Never rang like false or clunky or like purple prosed. I just really, I recommend this book. My first like proper summary read, I think, yeah, just one for book clubs, one to take with your new bag when you go to the, to the park and sort of, you know, when you go to the park and you sort of like plan on pretending to read and it's like an accessory, but you actually will read this book. Oh, that sounds great. I did this whole posed about how for the first time I'm not setting myself a reading goal and it was quite

like you know I'm just letting go I'm going to read intuitively have I read anything no have I been reading no your intuition says no so I'm going to have to this girl I need rules and I need I'm like I need a carrot and a stick I need a reward and I need someone chasing around the house being like pick up a fucking book because I love reading when I'm doing it

and when I'm not doing it I'm like ha ha ha ha so this might be the one that I pick up and it gets me back in maybe the carrot and the stick could be a little everything's content book club because we've had a few messages from people saying they would like one. Just going to drop that one in there. If anyone has any ideas for good books that we should do, definitely let us know because

there's not one that's come to mind where I think that's my top. I have a few, but I would love to get suggestions. I am pissing myself. I was just looking at my books on my shelf. I haven't even noticed that I had been sent this book because I got sent so many books. I know. I didn't even know. I just literally put it on my shelf, but still got the leaflet in it.

Well, I better start that tonight, I suppose. I have a copy. Well, what, again? No, it was looking at it and I went, dandelion. It was behind my laptop. And I was like, bloody, only bloody well, got a copy. She literally plugged it from behind the laptop listeners. That was amazing.

Stunning. Right. Sorry, I'm not moving on because I can't believe we've done this. Poor Beth, we must talk about girl inexperienced. If you didn't see Beth's announcement, Beth has written a young adult fiction book, which she's now going to tell you about because I'm really excited about it and it's huge news. I am such a bad self-promoter. I can't believe this. So we announced this last week. I started writing this about a year ago, spent most of the winter if anyone saw me out in public or just

anywhere I was always talking about, always stressed. It is a, yeah, it's like a teen, young adult fiction book. It's part of a series. So there's going to be at least two. It is about Cephy, who's 14. She's awkward. She's funny. She is not me as a teenager. I kind of wish that she was. She is navigating life in her small coastal town with her normal friends. The aim and the wonderful team at HarperCollins' kids' books have described it as kind of Georgia Nicholson-esque. That is what I'm shooting for in my wildest hopes and dreams. I have, I really made myself laugh writing this. I also felt this frantic anxiety of like, I had to remind myself, I'm not a teenager because it's not easy. So we're aiming for Georgia

Nicholson-esque for the modern day. That's the nub and gist of it. It's out next a I will put my self-promotion hat on and I will tell you all more and more as that becomes apparent. But yeah, you guys have been there through. I mean, I think I was like running names by you. You've heard me stress about writing a book and it is very exciting time. I loved announcing it because I was getting so many compliments. I wish I could announce something every single day. Oh, the excitement.

I had a thought, I felt like it was happening to me. I was reading all the comments. I was refreshing. I was like to get so many likes. I was getting dopamine from it. I'm so proud of you. But also, for those you don't know, Georgian Nicholson is of anger stongs and full frontal snogging fame if you had forgotten, obviously, a seminal book and then film for our time. So watch out the film adaptation of Best Book. I'll play Safi, obviously.

Yeah, I'm just going to say, there's a few millennial characters in there, which have been really fun to write. Because I imagine Gen Alpha Gen Z Cusp, kind of millennials don't really, they're not even the annoying older generation. They are so, it's like two generations ahead. So I've really enjoyed writing these millennial characters, e.g., that is the self-insert for me. So if I don't recognize themselves, I'm sorry. We are simply too parodyable. Was there, like, how difficult was it to, like, insert yourself into a young person's mind? Because I feel like I look at them sometimes and I'm like, I don't remember ever being you.

I think really difficult. I had to talk to, not directly, to, I don't actually know many 14-year-olds, but I was talking to parents of 14-year-olds and kind of being like, what is life like for them? And I'm, I think the once hopes dreams are very similar, but the landscape is so different. Like me at 14 had a clunky rubbish phone and then I had a Sony Erickson and it was very contained. Like the internet is everywhere. Pressure is on. They're surveilled.

They are judged. They're kind of of that generation, I think, which like staring down, not the end of the world, but like a really different world and expected to know what to do with it. So I did as much research as I could. But I went off the fact that I think young people kind of are still driven by the same impulses for independence to kind of disagree with their parents on a lot to carve the own way out and also to kiss boys and girls and they thems and have just, just as they have a verb. They have a drive for life, which I think all the world wars and all the crap in the world cannot dampen. Well, this is such a good segue into our first topic, because we're going to be talking about books and kids and teenagers. Because last week, author Bernardine Everisto, shared an Instagram post which read, Here we go, another banning for girl, woman, other.

This time at the Lowry Academy School in the UK, who are part of the United Learning Trust of Schools. And then she also shared a link to Index on Censorship, which is a London-based non-profit organisation. and registered charity that campaigns for global free expression and advocates against threats to free speech worldwide. Index on censorship spoke to the librarian who worked at the school, who wished to remain anonymous after she was threatened with disciplinary action, labelled as a safeguarding risk and at one point under risk of police involvement. She resigned from her job under severe stress.

This started after she ordered Laura Bates' men who hate women. She said that, quote, The head teacher demanded the title be pulled from the library due to safeguarding issues and that she conduct an audit of the books in the library. The piece goes on to say there were three criteria for removal, books that were not written for children, books with themes that could be upsetting to children, and books that could be inappropriate or constitute a safeguarding risk. No definition of inappropriate was provided.

Index on censorship's investigation revealed that the school used an AI chatbot to generate the list of books to be removed, with nearly 200 being identified, among which one of them was girl, woman, other. And in one of the documents seen by index, the school said, although the categorisation was generated using AI, they considered the classification to be broadly accurate.

Other books included Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People About Race by Rény Edo Lodge, the Twilight series by Stephanie Meyer, and, ironically, a graphic novel adaptation of 1984 by George Orwell. Research from University College London, last year found that book banning and censorship attempts are becoming increasingly prominent within UK school libraries. So a lot of the argument for book banning has been around appropriateness of certain books for children. But it's so vague that even art books have been pulled from summer schools because they contain images of nude sculptures or otherwise in some instances.

Parents have asked that books with LGBTIQIA characters or themes be removed. One parent from the school we've spoken about didn't want their children to be exposed to. and I quote, gender bending. So it's truly so dystopian and quite terrifying. And I feel like we on this podcast have spoken before about we were kind of all voracious readers and reading all sorts at different ages above maybe the age bracket that we were meant to be reading.

Do you think there's ever any merit in policing what books children have access to, obviously like within reason? Or is this just very dark and worrying? So I remember we spoke about those books that were just very great. graphic in terms of, you know, torture porn and we floated the idea of having ratings on books just so people had a suggestion of it. And it was an imperfect idea that we floated, but it was an

idea to get around that. This just seems to be something completely different. This is not even about the content being violent or triggering or traumatic and kind of exposing children to things that are, even for an adult, you know, just very difficult to contend with and trying to get around that. This is just the most bizarre attempt to censor books that for, you know, all intents and purposes I've read most of these, not maybe not most, but like a fair few of these books. And there's not a single thing that I can understand to be problematic apart from topics of race, racism, LGBT existence, not even, you know, discussing sex in any overt way, literally discussions of just existing as a queer person and then misogyny. And it's just, it's so bizarre because these are

topics that children should be learning about in school anyway in an accessible age-appropriate manner. And books are an amazing way for that to happen. Even talking about why I'm no longer talking to white people about race, people know that despite the provocative title, all it is is a very rigorous historical examination of British racism and how racism exists in society. Any child would benefit from reading that. It is just so worrying to see this very ignorant, censorous approach to what children should be reading. And I think no child will benefit from it. Yeah, I find I find it ridiculous. I think the reasoning is really, it tells much bigger story. It's not about child protection. It really is. It's just a curtailing of ideas. It's really limiting. Children don't just need books

stamped for children. These categories are useful so that you can buy children the right books so that you can, you know, I mean, looking at the list, it's like becoming by Michelle Obama. It's books that, okay, there might be a reason for a few children to want to read this book. It's not inappropriate for any child to read this, but, you know, when you're shopping for a child for a child, you just might not pick that one up for a child who's not otherwise interested in Michelle Obama. To give access to books that are not strictly stamped for children doesn't mean they're going to be reading, you know, American Psycho, age 14, although I use that example because I literally was. It just means that they can pick up

a more challenging book, means that they can read around interest, feel that they are being taken seriously, because they need to be taken seriously. There are so many, like, thematically appropriate novels that just simply aren't for children or niche interest books or history books or social interest books that if a child can understand the concept and make the decision to read this, far better to have a librarian or an adult to say, okay, here's what to expect. You can talk to me about this, or at the very least, you know, discuss with your parents. I find the idea of removing, especially Laura Bates's men who ate women from the shelves and the reasoning was to not expose young girls to misogyny.

Like, well, I'm sorry they are already exposed. It puts them at such a disadvantage, I think, and maybe we'll get into this at a time when children are already being babied far too long and not being set up for adulthood in an appropriate way, are being coddled and are being just treated in a way that doesn't actually protect them that doesn't allow them to develop this adult mind and this curiosity and this trust in themselves to moderate their own reading. I mean, these are not how to build a bomb. These are not how to guys to be a misogynist. These are books written by adults who care about the world. In so many cases, they are written by thoughtful, decent adults of which we

would like to create more. I find this whole thing absolutely foul. It's so ignorantly fearmongering. And it's really reminding me of the conversation we had in our porn episodes about how when we were younger, because we didn't have access to Porn Hub and all of these kind of like websites, you would ambiently start to understand what sex is through either your experiences or hearsay or stories, but it would be like a slow build towards the truth of the reality and then maybe porn came in later. But like at a time when kids can Google HS Tiki Toki can watch all of these like awful influences online, talking about any number of things, can go on porn websites. You need the antidote of books like Laura Bates.

I mean, Laura Bates is the most egregious example. That book is all about silencing women. It's about the way that misogyny permeates through every area in our culture, in cell culture, which is a massive growing problem. She's like research. I found it really interesting that everyone is so praising the Manosphere documentary. Laura Bates has been doing this work for years tirelessly and actually putting herself on the front lines

and actually endangering a lot of instances. And she's such an incredible woman. I don't know what they think they're saving these children from when any one of these children can just go on a laptop or a computer or someone's phone at any point in time and look up really harmful, really dangerous information. I think banning books is so wild because you learn so much. And there were books that I read when I was younger that probably were age inappropriate. And I would either just not deeply understand them or I would look to find out more. But I don't remember being scarred or harmed by reading books.

Like one of my favorite books, weirdly, I used to read Anne Frank's diary. all the time. I used to read like a child called it. I read quite harrowing and dark things about history and about life. And I just think it's so awful what this librarian has gone through. Like she's so traumatized and she said that she didn't really know what to do. Like they were putting her under so much stress and pressure that eventually she did just start removing these books. But she also talks about how the library often is a refuge, especially for children who are LGBTQIA, who are autistic who do fall under these different umbrella groups that maybe need to find a sense of safety within an environment that can feel very unsafe for many people. Schools and children,

unfortunately, do mirror the larger prejudices that we have in society. Like, bullying, all of those things going on at schools. And libraries, for a lot of people, are safe places and can offer an alternate world view, like libraries. Books are just amazing. They house the whole world inside them at every viewpoint. I find it really scary. And it's so, It's the beginning of every dystopian novel is the books start getting taken away. It's so ridiculous to think that we live in a country where this is going on. Yeah, I'm kind of a loss for words, to be honest. Yeah, exactly.

Literally is the premise from Fahrenheit 451, which is an excellent book, ironically, about book bannings and burnings as part of a dystopian regime. And we've never had questions about it. I always feel like I've wanted to explain why we often talk about the US. And it's because the US and the UK are so intrinsically. linked and especially right now politically, I feel like the UK is maybe a few steps behind what we're seeing in Trump's America. And the Guardian wrote a piece last year called multi-level barrage of US book bans are unprecedented in the US, say, Penn America. And they

talked about how book banning in the US has searched in the past few years, fueled by conservative backlash against discussions of race, LGBTQ plus issues and diversity teaching in public schools. and there's pieces from last year's from February 2025 and they also said that Donald Trump instructed the Department of Education to shut down investigations into book bannings and he called them a hoax and I think the fact that we have this story

this incredible librarian who's spoken about her experience I would not for the life of me be surprised if this is quietly going on across schools we've seen things like drag queen appearances and libraries being challenged and actually a lot of threat of violence to those figures in the UK after already seeing that in massive waves across the US. I do feel like schools and education are this frontier for this like horrible, you know, conservative right wing agenda and children are just kind of the victims in all of it. And it really worries me. It really

worries me. Yeah. It is always so easy to say that we are protecting the children. That is the front used by the right wing. Like I remember I lived in first hill for a couple years and the pub right on our corner did once a month drag queen story time so parents would bring their children they would be read to and entertained by drag queens and every single time there was also a far right protest opposite with I mean local opposition was huge it was always much bigger police were there you know I think there was one time myself and my best friend

Jess we ended up like right on the front of our side for our better organized but also like facing off against these blokes and it was really nasty men who would look at us and make lasciviourians gestures and you're kind of thinking you're here to say protect women and girls protect children like you are just it's completely hijacking this view so I think it's just such a useful cover also to pivot this is a time when literacy and an interest in reading is just in crisis state it's too pressure the thing to be culling books from a library like in 2025 the percentage of young people and children who enjoyed reading was at a 20 year low one in three children and young people reported an enjoyment in reading in their free time.

Boys are losing their interest in it massively. Fewer and fewer kids use their free time to pick up a book. All of this at the same time as obviously AI books, AI slop, is flooding the market, especially for children's books. It is, it's a crisis point. And that is a genuine threat to children's brains and curiosity and development, not having a few autobiographies or queer literature or a challenging but human written book. in their reach. We've said it for so long on this podcast, but the concern is real and I think it's not at all. I think it's the understated of anything.

Things are getting really, really bad. So to see people removing books from a library under the guise of, it's for the kids, especially as guided by an AI decider. Like, how does that is dystopia on dystopia? Yeah, there's a really good phrase that I love to go back to Ritera

what you're saying about the US and UK, which is the US sneezes and the UK catches are cold. A lot of these books came to prominence like girl, women, other, Why I'm No Longer Talking to White, Blot Race, was out before, but they really became big in 2020 in reaction to the murder of George Floyd. And when you think about what's happened in these last six years, the promise of, and we're going to talk about this later, I think, when we come on to talk about like millennial feminism,

but the ways in which so many strides were made towards what we believe to be a much more inclusive society that made everyone feel safer. And, you know, we're even having a conversation in the coming weeks with Alex Light, about the way that body positivity has kind of died of death. It's a real sad, scary feeling to think so much work was done to kind of build the bricks towards a society where everyone felt included, where we understood each other more, where we were trying to break down all of these things

that made a society so divided. And oddly, actually, a lot of the reaction to that was increased polarization, increased divisiveness between those who wished to keep the status quo, keep thinking how we were, it and it makes you feel kind of weak. It makes me feel weak. It makes me feel like I've got no power when you see that this is happening in schools

because that's just terrifying. What's even worse is there's obviously this element of certain parents will be able to provide their children with different literature and at home, different education, but there might be children who don't have a safe environment to go back to, who don't have access to conversations around sexuality or race or misogyny. And a school should be a kind of. of safe haven for a child. And what does that say to those young children who are facing discrimination who are then made to feel like this isn't even a topic you can cover in the privacy

of your own mind through reading a book? I think that it's really upsetting. And I think the work that this charity do, who I'd actually never heard of before until Vanadine at Verristo shared them, I think it's really fascinating or something that I really want to keep tabs on. Because like you said, it's happening a lot more. And there was a BBC article that will link in the show notes. There's been a lot of conversation about this happening like year on year. And I don't know how it works individually by each school or what the kind of legislation is, but it certainly feels like these people just don't know. Just the level of ignorance is quite worrying that a head teacher would feel these things aren't appropriate.

You just think who's in charge of these schools? How can you think that education cannot be improved through children having access to information that they really need access to? So up next, and not for the first time on the pot, intergenerational differences of opinion. So earlier this week, we discussed Lindy Wend. and her new memoir, Adult Races, which has sparked all kinds of controversy online, with people holding her up as an example of millennial feminism that can't help but tie itself

into useless knots. Lena Dunham has also returned to Twitter to promote her upcoming memoir FAMSick, which has gotten people talking about the kind of feminism that she promoted, and also the politics of her show, Girls, which is often heralded as a kind of perfect portrait of certain self-absorbed feminist women of the 2010s. And all of this has crystallized into discourse about the flaws of millennial feminism and accusations that was not progressive at all did no good for either millennial or Gen Z women that it was sex-obsessed, promoted hookup culture and shamed women who didn't engage in casual sex. So let me read a couple of tweaks to give context. So from at underscore incandescent who said, Gen Z is kind of clocking millennial

slash gen X feminist tea. Yol said slash say men are trash but then advocate for having casual sex with many of them and partaking in kinks that may be harmful. It never made sense. And from at dawn of the femme, who said, stop acting dense, LMFAO. I'm an older Gen Z who grew up on millennial spaces. I was 12 on Tumblr and Twitter being incentivized by older people into reading Lolita. I developed a daddy kink of 14. I mean, we've got here the many Twitter rebuttals, which I think maybe we can go through and examine, but that is where we have begun, which here I can see your face is it's a picture of, I don't know if it's confusion or just surprise, but what are you feeling when you kind of hear those allegations of a feminism

that we were all a part of? We lived to see it. We were very, we bore witness. Does that seem accurate at all? I don't think that's my understanding of what millennial feminism was. Maybe I was at a different party to everyone else commenting on it. I do feel like, okay, I have gone to battle for Gen Z and now I'm pissed off because it's like, now you turn on me, your friend, your ally, you turn on me, bitch,

I'm annoyed. That's not my recollection. I don't remember that's the fight that I was having back then. I feel like we were talking about other things. But if you are going to cherry pick and also use things like girls or these like pastiches of millennial movements as the evidence for what we were talking about, obviously you're going to get a just complete joke of an idea of what we were all fighting for and discussing. I don't think that this is, a good representation of it. I also think, I don't think we were talking about casual hookup culture as much as they're saying we were. It was a part of it, but that also had a time and a place. We were also talking about, you know, fat phobia, racism, intersectionality. We were talking about

turfism. We were talking about all this shit that I feel like we're still doing now. What do you think an only? So I'm really grateful because I think it was the elder millennials that did the dismantling of slut shaming. I remember at school, and we spoke about this before, that there was whole thing about being frigid or you're a slut or whatever. And then I got to uni and almost quite quickly that had been turned on its head. It's like, no, it was about women's pleasure. It wasn't about going out and getting railed as much as you want, although that was something that you were allowed to do. It was like actually sex is for you. You take the power back. If you want to have a sexual encounter, you want to get pleasure, go out and get a girl and make sure that you're not

laying any man, treat you like a piece of shit, treat you like a vessel, treat you like something that's to be used or objectified. And that's a really strong, necessary thing in order to combat rape culture as well because the minute that you tell women and girls that sex is for them, coercive control from men becomes something that women are able to identify and go, wait, I'm going to actually know, I don't want to engage in this activity unless it's for me. It wasn't about being like, go out and be a slut. It was, there is no such thing as a slut. Body count means nothing.

This idea that actually is trying to be reintroduced by all the bloody in cells and Andrew Tate, like your value goes down as a woman if you sleep with more men and your value goes up as a man. That was kind of what we grew up with this idea that, you know, women should have not really sleep with anyone, but guys could sleep with 100 girls, like, who are the girls are sleeping with before the women have to be virgins. It doesn't really add up. So yes, it was a part of it, but it was a part that was like really celebratory of women and actually was deeply rooted in this idea about women's pleasure and about how the generations before us, our mothers, our grandmothers, were not given that red light go ahead to say that actually I don't

want to engage in sexual activity. You know, it wasn't that long ago that marital rape was legal. So that was kind of, it came from really important places. And I think this whole like puritanical reaction is, is not that shocking from Gen Z, from everything we hear. And it goes so much into such border conversations about, you know, Gen Z not drinking, Gen Z not socializing as much, them spending a lot of time inside on their phones online. We were out and in the world. Thank God we had those amazing years that we were doing that.

And that just kind of tied into that thing. There are parts of millennial feminism that I would criticize, but it would be like the Cheryl Sandberg, the kind of pink pussy hat. When it wasn't talking about intersectionality, when it wasn't deep-rooted in, basically when it became really fashionable to call yourself a feminist. This is what a feminist looked like, T-shirts sold by Dior for like 500 pounds. That's bullshit. But that actually was only born from really true, important feminist conversations

that was all about liberating women and young girls. So, yeah, I'm with you, Ritia, because I want to be kind to Genzi, but I do think they're showing in their asses on this one. Also, completely agree with what you said. The only thing I was going to say is I guess it was like a lot of bodily autonomy, which as we see with abortion rights in the US have been very easily rolled back. But that also felt like exactly like you were saying was a big facet of millennial feminism to my mind. Well, the tweets in kind of rebuttal, which are echoing what we're saying from at Satchel Maloney,

I think a lot of you guys are confusing millennial feminism with what you thought feminism was, as a teenager. And from at Healthy, we also need to push back on this narrative that millennial feminism was just about sex. It's about bodily autonomy. Sex is obviously in that, but so was fat acceptance, trans rights and safe births and abortions and disability rights. I mean, I think this flattening of it into a millennial women promote bad degrading sex. It demonstrates a person who either was there, because I think a lot of this commentary is coming covertly from right-wing millennials or someone who didn't grow up doesn't remember what it was in response to do, doesn't remember how bad it got and actually how joyful the attempts were to reclaim sex and pleasure.

As imperfect as they were, I remember there was this big push online that was a sort of early misandry or not early misandry but early internet messandry, which was, you know, Dick is abundant and low value, which was then reassessed as actually this isn't the most positive way to talk about bodies and sex. But it wasn't, it was an overcorrection. It was never, and you must have terrible sex or you're not a fun loving gal. You are not a real feminist. You are not going out there and getting it. And this sparked a discourse online.

I don't know if either of you saw the enjoy the blowjob, but reflect on it. Tweet that went viral, which was kind of in response to this. It was, I mean, it was very funny, but I think it was an earnest. It's not that funny. It was from at JXNW who wrote, Ask why women enjoy giving blowjobs. Could it be that a woman's value is a function of her sexual performance? that massacism is a feminine trait because we teach women the role of sexual submission,

enjoy the blowjob, but reflect on it, which sparked a lot of funny tweets, but I just thought, wow, we have come all the way around to this rad femme idea that sex is pretty much inherently degrading for a woman, enjoying sex is a kind of patriarchal perversion, that pleasure is humiliating, and that it's basically only possible to be progressive while getting down, while having this very limited kind of sex, that kinks were all perversions, that it's all, that way of thinking was actually just limits a life. I thought, I will not say that defines Gen Z feminism any more than I will say millennial feminism was defined by the pink pussy hats. But it's an element of what we're seeing. And I think it's a really concerning one. It's interesting, isn't it?

Because I've been thinking about this thing for a while where the straightest thing you can do whether you're a man or a woman at the moment is hate the other sex. And to, So you have all of these right wing alpha influences, and deep down is this deep hatred for women. It's very much like to love your wife is to be gay or to love your wife is to be like, you know, a beta man. What you really want to do is Loki hate your wife, hate having sex with her, but actually want to show off with the boys. Then we have the equivalent on the female side, which is to be single is the most self-loving thing you can do. to Loki kind of hate men and to find them perverse and kind of embarrassing is the straightest thing you can do as a woman. To love your husband is to kind of be a bit of an embarrassment with the cause.

And we've got ourselves into such a ridiculous fucking bind where it's like whether you're left or right to be the straightest person you can be, which I don't know who wants to do that. But to do that is to hate the opposite sex. And you're seeing people who are like claiming to live their values through their relationships, but all they're doing is having. miserable relationships. And then you're getting all of this discourse about saying that like having sex is basically to let down the cause, to let down your gender, or just you have to think in these like very academic terms about what a fucking blowjob means for your politics and your sense of self. And it really does remind me of the Lindy West discourse that we're going to get on too soon, which is to be in a monogamous relationship is to colonise a person. I think we

need to unlearn some things and just go hook up with people. It's so ridiculous. But on a more serious note, I do really worry about what we're encouraging and what we're kind of learning sexually and in relationships. At the moment, it kind of feels like there's something similar going on in all sides of the count and we're kind of being fed this noxas gas that is making us feel like to have sex, to feel pleasure, to fall in love, to be aroused, all of these things are embarrassing, shameful, politically perverse things. And I don't know how we're getting here, but we're all kind of being led across the same path from every direction. It's reminding me even, well, firstly, one of the things I want to say about the straightness thing is that validates

my core true belief that either everyone is a bit by or everyone should be a bit by. I really don't believe people on their straight. And I have argued with every boyfriend I've ever had when they won't tell me which man they will sleep with because I'm like, there has to be one. So that's my first thing. It's reminding me of what Freya India writes. When I got more into her writing after we did that episode, she talks a lot about the perils of sort of being loose with your promiscuity. Like she's very scared of it. And I wonder if it's like, what worked for us, worked for us in that moment in time. And it was the late 2010s when we did have iPhones, but like we would let them die on a night out and you wouldn't be that stressed. And you would go out

and sleep with someone in the afternoon out and no one really cared. And I guess we all felt generation and everyone was coming up together. I remember. with the men in my life were really involving themselves and feminist conversations were really reflecting on their behavior and it was a very like kind of it felt like we were all coming to grips with it together as a generation rather than like it was men doing it and it was women doing it. Now I think we have the ubiquitousness of the internet, Gen Z being very fearful of things that they do ending up online because every time you step out on the street someone's going to try and box pop you. There is like that kind of omnipotent feeling that there's always someone kind of watching

almost like the internet is now God. It's like I don't know if you, when you were little, would think that God could see you in your room. I used to think that and I'd be scared of doing anything. So I'd be like, oh my God. Or my dad, my dad, granddad could see me from heaven or something. It's like that, but the internet. So they're like firstly very terrified of how their actions will, in like a very puritanical way, like what is the judge and jury of the internet going to do to them?

But also you have maybe is men are not worse because men are awful when we were younger too, but is there like a feeling that maybe it's not as safe to be promiscuous anymore? A, because of like the internet and B, because maybe they're more exposed to very ardent, in-cell misogynist. Like I don't, it was much more underhand when we were younger. Like these, but there are people outright saying the most awful things about women now. So maybe it just feels scary. I think it must be something to do with the fact that maybe you can't practice that level

of freedom, freedom of expression around your sexuality as a woman today in that generation. It just doesn't feel as safe. where it's like we went through it and now kind of are out the other side of it and we're like well it was fine when we were doing it so maybe it is because it doesn't apply quite as neatly to their situation but they're kind of retrofitting that

to say we got it wrong I think that's very bang on and I don't think that Genzi attitudes to sex exist in a vacuum or were as simple as watching how we did it and saying well I don't want to do that I think it's absolutely everything you said I mean we talked about this

maybe Ruchera and I talked about this in our bonus episode about Gen Z's attitude to sex in films. And it's actually very multi-layered. It is very much about the world they live in, which is one where they still live at home for a very long time, where ideology takes root far earlier. And also where everyone's obsessed for their sex lives,

it's not really the thing that makes you particularly horny. And I do feel really grateful to have had that messy, but also very free time. Like, it was not that I was chasing a number or I really wanted to have loads and loads of casual sex. It was. People did not talk about it as if it was, was a problem. Understanding yourself could take time, but it could be, it could involve this.

It could involve just a lack of judgment. And I'm seeing tweets from people being like, kind of holding up the fact that Genzi has a much lower teen pregnancy rate than millennials as a sort of, well, look, you got it wrong. We got it right. And everyone's pointing out like that that's what we campaign for. This is exactly what we wanted. That is a victory of not Gen Z specifically, but it's the victory of millennial intersexual feminist. The victory of Gen X, intersectional feminist. This is time immemorial. Good feminism has. been for women's autonomy, safety, freedom from the shackles of forced pregnancy and kind of marriage where she was a baby making machine. It's like that's, we campaign for

condoms, safe sex, safe abortions, educational consent, punishing men and boys who did not listen to no. It's kind of like this is not you being morally sounder or smarter than us. This is a result of a collective effort, one that you are still a part of. You cannot now sever connection between every generation of feminism beforehand. You still need it. We still need it. This is an ongoing issue. I think it really undervalues how successful a movement feminism has been. I guess the point I'm making is the criticism is of basically white feminism. It is saying millennial feminism is white feminism, which is simply not true. If you think of the defining voices and the real work of the 2010s and the 2000s as well in terms of moves made, like it really was

quite remarkable. This is the era of Me Too. And we can discuss the swing back of the pendulum, but these were not white women in pink pussy hat that were making ground. It was so often black women, it was queer women, disabled women. It was not someone selling a course. It was not Cheryl Sandberg. Like I used to watch Anita Sarkeesian at university. She wrote a lot about the gaming and pop-coction space and misogyny there, Tarana Burke, the Me Too movement. this is as defining a millennial victory as it gets. This is what happened in that time. Millennial Genza X did get this stuff done.

And I think when we say that's white feminism or when we say millennial feminism and we mean white feminism, it really undoes a lot of that work. And it flattens it into this corporate, useless, sex positive only. And that is useful work. But it flattens it into that. And I think that's really a historical and really it's really ungrateful to those women that did the work who were millennial gen X. You're so right.

It's like, for instance, at uni, if someone had sex, everyone would be like, quick, go get an SDI check. There was no drama about it. There was no judgment. There was never like anyone was going to suffer in silence. If someone needed an abortion, it would be a conversation around the table whilst we're having dinner. Like there was no judgment around it.

And even the conversations around motherhood, people talk about their miscarriages really frequently now. They're very open about it. That's only happened in the last like five or six years. Before that, women would not talk about it. What's interestingly happened on the other side is then, women have more autonomy to make choices around motherhood, which are really informed and they're only really informed because feminists made strides that women weren't just silent slaves in the home who were raising these children for these men. It's so fascinating that this conversation has come back around to millennial feminism. And you're right, white feminism was a product of millennial feminism because of the hard work that made feminism so mainstream.

There was a time when saying you're a feminist would make you a pariah. People would think you were horrifying. You were disgusting. That is happening again. in the US, but more often it's like if you say that you're liberal or left leading, people are literally like you're an alien, you're disgusting, you're revolting. That was what used to happen to feminists. But millennial feminists made feminism so popular that became a bloody slogan. Like, that is how well they did it. So yes, it was very flawed and there's things I'm sure we could revisit. But I feel and I can see even in the differences between my mom and me what that feminism offered me and gave me. And it's really stark and it's so obvious to, if you just

any conversation I have with my mum and she'll be like, well, I never knew I could do that. I never thought I could do that. I didn't know that that was available to me. And I'm constantly thinking, God, as awful as the swelder's, I've never, especially as a white privileged woman, there's never a better time for me to have been alive than now. And that is because of feminists. I was thinking about something you said and I was thinking about the fact that tradwives are such a like point of fetish online right now. And I feel like there is something in how disconnected we are from previous iterations of feminism and what they've actually achieved, that now we can see something like a Nara Smith cooking her food. We can see the rise of like Mormon influences.

We can see all of that stuff and it feels like something to kind of feel the allure of because the fight to not have that as the dominant culture for women to be housewives feel so disconnected. We can see that on a TikTok and it feels like kind of fun. It feels like that's the escapism feminist dream compared to women at work, women grinding the pay gap, women grinding for childcare, all of the kind of like shitty battles that we're still left with, even though there have been strides in the last two decades. In all of those fields, we still haven't achieved parity, that it feels like almost the past, the nostalgia of like, in some ways for many women, the worst iterations of what would have been life as a woman in the 50s and 60s, that now feels like. the fun way to escape the current cycle of stuff. And it feels like, I don't know if that makes sense, but I guess for Gen Z as well,

they're probably looking at all the things we achieved and they're like, well, things still suck. What did you actually get through? You know, Nara Smith looks like she's having a fucking good time. She's not like worrying about getting a graduate job in the age of AI. She's doing pretty good for herself. I get it. I do get that. And I'm sure that when we were younger,

we were looking at the last generation thinking, well, what do they fucking achieve? But I think we have to be really curious and we have to know our shit because that is really disrespectful to the age of women who have fought for the places that we have now as a given. And I think it's really important. And I also think the creep and the very poisonous allure of nostalgia and making it seem like the old life is much better than current life. It looks very good. It looks great. It does not feel great from what I've heard from our grandmothers, from our mothers and their grandmothers themselves. So I think, I don't know,

It might feel like we didn't achieve anything, but that's not true. Don't believe the nonsense online. And I also think if you do feel like that, then you have to put that into fighting, not fighting people online, fighting on the streets. Yeah, it's like you hate the patriarchy and you hate the capitalist patriarchy. And to point to, last thing from me, but like a pretty academic document, there is a sponge-bub meme, which I'm sure I've sent you both, or you've sent it to me, the setup being the first panel was like a defiant squidward being like anti-feminist women,

and be like, can't stand feminism. And then the next panel is like a really happy animated Squidward with SpongeBob and Patrick being like, 10 minutes later, me and the bank account, e.g., you love the spoils of feminism. You love these wins which took years and braver and courage and human sacrifice. You are just divorced from the reality of that. You are not anti-feminist. You're actually, I think, galaxy-brained, really anti-capitalist. That is the thing that is keeping you as a wage slave.

It is not that women fought for your right to vote. You were always a slave. You were always a, you know, a kind of servant in the kitchen. It's just now. Guess what? You're getting paid. So ever since I spotted the posters for Christopher Borgley's film The Drama, starring Robert Patterson as Charlie and Zendaya as Emma,

I knew this would either be the most amazing or the most terrible film of all time. The trailer was so sadistic and perfect. What starts as a gorgeous meet cute between the pair, become something else after Emma shares the worst thing that she's ever done during a pre-wedding dinner with her maid of honour played amazingly by Lana Heim and her husband, Mamadu Athi, and Charlie. But what the hell went on? What on earth happened? Right from the jump, we know that there's a twist, but all we see in the trailer is the fallout from that shared secret unfur. We aren't going to do spoilers just yet. I will give you a very clear warning. We're going to start

with both of you, would you ever want to know your partner's deepest, darkest secret? And can I get a top level review of the film from both of you? God, I've never been so excited to talk about a movie. It was funny because the whole time I was watching, I kept thinking, like, what is the worst thing I've ever done? And I think I couldn't really think of anything that I would be, like, so ashamed that I couldn't say it because I don't think I have one singular thing that's like a period in my life when I was making mistakes or, like, arguments have with friends.

and I really look back and cringe or something I said to my mum. So, yes, I would be happy to know that about my partner, but I feel like I know them well enough that I have so much texture around who they are and genuinely feel like I'm embroiled enough in their life and their family that nothing they could tell me. Maybe Rachel, Alana Harms' secret, would kind of set me on my toes. But I was, oh, God, I was so relieved it was good because there's so many times I've gone to cinema recently

for a really big blockbuster film and been like, this isn't great. I was blown away. I thought the editing was amazing. I thought that acting was spectacular. It was everything I wanted in a film and more. I literally have been waiting with beta breath to talk about this with you both. What about you, Behr? So just to your first question, I think I'm very open to hearing about these things from other people. I've never had a situation where someone has confided something from modern day from their past. And I have had any other reaction then like, I hear you, you are still the same person. Because the work is evident, especially, I mean, we'll get into the twist and worry we will give you a spoiler warning,

but like, when something happens far in the past, and then you know that person, exactly, it's texture, it is context, it is evidence, kind of optimistic evidence that people can and do change. So even if it wrong foots you, I think that feeling has always been like, wow, this is evidence of the kind of inherent perfectability and goodness of people. I don't think, I'm the same as you. I don't know if I could do a successful audit of my own shameful behaviors, not because they don't exist, but because I have a really sensitive trigger to shame, I often think, I can't believe I've done that, can't believe it've done that. I still think to this day, I once stepped on a caterpillar in France when it was about four years old. I still think about it

sometimes. I'm like, if only I'd step somewhere else. So it's so annoying. It's such a kind of weird way to be self-obsessed anyway. So I don't want to tell it, but I'd be happy to hear it. The film I really, really like, and again, I'm so glad I enjoyed it. It was a great one to watch in a very big cinema with a lot of people because there's so much to gas at. There's a great moral quandary. I think if I had to pick something that I was like, oh, okay, is the end is not as explosive. I think it's, it's this boiling and then it doesn't quite boil over, but it's a really, it's fun right to the end. You were holding yourself so tense. I wasn't even annoyed people having like small conversations about it while it was happening because I was like, I wish I could

have a conversation with someone while this is happening. People going, I can't believe he did this or she did this or no, I agree with him. It's such a fun film. Ruchera, tell us what's the worst thing you've ever done. Yeah, no, I'm absolutely not going to do that. I, you know what, I came out of cinema and I was like, you know what, I actually don't need to know the worst thing my partner's done. I actually don't want to know that. And I felt this real sense of it's better not to have some conversations. And I really believe that. I don't think I need to have that conversation. And I do think sometimes you don't need to know everything about somebody. And that sounds insane because I'm going to get married to somebody this year. But I don't think you need to know every single thing and vice versa. I think if you know who the person is, today and you know the core memories that have shaped them into who they are, if the worst thing they've ever done is part of that core mix, fair enough. But if it's not, why do you need to know it? Sometimes I think there is this impression of a relationship which is like you need to almost be an, you know, like an academic on the person you're with. And I don't know if I believe that.

I think you need to be curious about the person you're with always. You need to always want to know what they want to tell you. But I don't think knowing somebody inside out, upside down, every single cell in their body necessarily also equates to a good loving relationship. That's what I was thinking about. I know. I do agree with that. And it's funny because one of the reactions I saw someone on Instagram was like, oh my God, this film just shows you that you never truly know someone. And I've learned from my own experiences, especially when I was younger, where I would always admit to wrongdoing to the point where it would be like I was actually doing it to absolve myself. Like I again, I talk about us all the time, but I'm sure it's Catholic girls.

where I would like, to the point where I actually think it kind of made things worse, because A, no one cared. It probably wasn't that bad. But I was like, I have to tell everyone everything all the time to make sure that, you know, that omnipion presence, whoever it is that's watching down over me, doesn't think I've got away with something. And it's only over time that I've learned like, actually people don't need to know. I do agree.

And I think that film does really highlight, especially like be very careful about who you're telling what to. And as I've gotten older and all of my friends this week, I've really had a conversation like three different friends about how we were saying we never really want. to get drunk with people we don't know because you can say something to want to a really close friend and it just whatever and you say it in a room of random people and you can wake up the next day and be like god i just wish that i hadn't had that other glass of wine so yeah it put the i have to say i was anxious throughout the girl next me was laughing so much so i kept being i was like

watching my eyes i was gasping i was so stressed the levels of anxiety that film brought on me it's kind of like my worst nightmare i was coming out in hives constantly i think it's because i constantly feel like I've done something wrong and it's only minutes away from someone revealing. I don't even know what it is, but someone soon is going to tell me and I will just be like drawn and quartered in the square. It's so insanely stressful. This is a very kind invite for everyone who hasn't watched the film to leave now. We are going to do spoilers. This is your spoiler warning. Beep. Okay. So did you for a second think that the twist was going to be that Zendaya's character, Emma, had nearly engaged in a school shooting when she was 14 years

old. I didn't. No. So bonkers. It is such a perfect moral quandary. It's genius. It's genius. But, and I will get into this. I came away from the film. I went with my partner and I didn't say anything afterwards because I was like, maybe I'm a bit weird. Maybe it's because I'm not American. Maybe it's because mass shootings are really abstract in the UK to me. But I was like, I just, if someone told me that, I would like, that's fucking nuts. You're insane. Loll. Is that really bad?

Like I wouldn't, it really wouldn't to me have caused the fallout that happened. And I think that is kind of what the whole movie is about. But it's like, to me, in the UK, we don't police thoughts. We don't police things people haven't done. And you have some crazy. I've never thought about doing things to other people, but I certainly as a teenager, we'd be like, what if I threw myself in front of that train? What would happen then?

And I'm sure, given the wrong day, potentially I could have done it. But you have all of these kind of like crazy intrusive thoughts. And yes, she does get quite far with it. Like she takes her dad's weapon and she's kind of like making these videos and she's been radicalized in some way. And there's a really interesting conversation around the fact that they're 13 years apart. And she's grown up on the internet and he wasn't experiencing that. But I wasn't expecting the twist.

But I also think that's what made the film so fascinating because Alana Heim's character, Rachel's secret is that she locked a child. who was mentally disabled in a forest, in a cabin. Awful. And left him there and then didn't tell anyone. And it wasn't until he got found by the police. In a closet, I think. Yeah, in a closet in like an RV van or something.

Awful. But she did it. Like she could have literally murdered someone. And it's like, that is, is that not worse? I don't know. What did you guys both think of it? Am I wrong for not being like, if both of you told me you thought about doing a mass shooting, I'd just be like, well, that was mad.

You were crazy. So I literally gasped. I haven't seen a film before for a while where I literally was like putty in the filmmaker's hands. I was gasping at every point just like laughing, like cringing, exactly like you. I agree with you. I think it's because it's so obvious she was a child. All I could think about was all the mad things I thought, felt experienced when I was younger and they don't feel like reflective of me at all. There are kind of jigsaw pieces that probably you could say, okay, that's a richer trait. But I I genuinely, I've said this before. I felt like I had a personality transplant when I was 27 years old. I felt like I became a different person and I had morality. So I just did not feel morally superior at all. I was just like, wow, everything she said, God, what a wild childhood thing to just come out with.

That is kind of loco. That is pretty loco, you know. And I think I would say that if you said that to me in a room and we were having a few drinks. The thing I thought was interesting, which made Emma really difficult, was she didn't have a really good answer for why she felt that. She didn't have like a therapist, you know, I was radicalized and I realized this about myself

and I learned this about myself and now I'm this person. She didn't have an answer like that even though Charlie was trying to provoke her into saying that. He was like, do you think it's because of this neighbor who died on your road and you were very close? Do you think it's because of this? And he really wanted the perfect answer and she wouldn't give it. And I found that infuriating and also amazing.

which is why I think he spins out so much. I think if she'd given him this really neat bow of, I had this ism when I was younger and my therapist told me this and I've learned this. I think maybe he wouldn't have spun out so much because it's made him doubt everything he knows about her, even though nothing has changed. I think almost we're looking for like perfect answers

when people tell you that they're capable of doing terrible things. And this one thing they said about with the number of school shootings in the US, it's very capable that you could be walking down the street. And who knows what percentage of people all around you that you pass nearly did one of the worst crimes you can imagine. That blew my mind. And now I feel like I can't look at people the same way.

It's not in a bad way, but it's just made me like, it's almost like opened my fifth eye. What do you think, Beth? I think the fact that she is not delivering a perfect answer doesn't have the insight. I mean, she could have worked up the next day and lied and said, I'm really, okay, I exaggerated. I thought it would be funny. that's really, really stupid. I'll go back and I'll say, listen, guys, I looked at one forum, but I thought that, you know, I was playing along.

The fact that she doesn't then invent this answer of being like, yes, actually, I was radicalized. No, I was traumatized by this. You know, she doesn't take the easy out. She continues to tell the truth of like, I don't really know. And I think a lot of us don't have that insight into who we were at age 15. You talk to people who used to, you know, cheat on partners or steal from shops. They go, I don't know, actually what that was about. It's completely contrary to my morals. And they physically couldn't do it now.

But yeah, how interesting. Because it is a crime, it's a kind of thought crime. It's also a months, it seems like, went into planning and thinking about this. And my takeaway, because she is not, she is not our idea of school shooter. She is a black teenager being bullied. She's a girl. It's difficult to put her anywhere and say, oh, okay, it's one of these cases. It seems that it is a real kind of fun, dark exercise.

But then there's the fact she kind of, she had a day. She brought the gun in. It's a perfect moral quandary for that reason. And I think those people at the table, it's kind of like, there's a black man. there is an English man, there is her best friend whose family member was paralyzed in in gun violence. I think the fact, especially for Charlie, I think it's kind of caricature America. And I don't mean that in a to tell to play it, but it's like when we look at America as this kind of like failing state, this sort of gun obsessed nation, this nation of absolute nonsense. It is every floor of America laid bare.

It is the laziest and darkest of jokes on the internet. People go, British people, we've got rubbish tea, though, eat shit food. And we go, your schools get shot and often. It's kind of what people reach for when they want to be nasty. And I think it completely disrupts his view of his gorgeous, sweet fiance. Even the fact that she's deaf in one ear, not as this sort of like quirk that makes her, makes them have this wonderful early meeting when she was talking to her deaf ear. It's like, oh, that is a product of your fascination with guns and your plans to commit an atrocity.

It takes on an absurd quality. And I think that is what he feels betrayed on as well, the disruption of his. sweet, gorgeous love story. In fact, she is complex. She has this one blight on her character. And I think the whole film is him trying to work out if he can continue in this narration of his life. I think there's an argument that them at the end of the film, all of this coming out,

have a much better chance of being married a long time than them at the beginning, which is quite, you know, they've only been together two years. It's very idealistic. She's never been in love before. I think the couple we see at the end might actually see it through. The cup at the beginning are kind of off. They're just, they're not quite in agreement in alignment. Yeah, you know what we were saying at the beginning about not telling each other?

It's like actually because she did lose her hearing through shooting the gun too closely and then it basically like burst her eardrum. It's maybe like maybe he did need to know that because it's like the relief of him actually knowing even though it blows up the whole world. It's like she's carried the shame of this thing for so long maybe in order for them to be together forever. he does need to know that. And there's another world in which she's told him that in private and she's given, because also the minute you see, it's kind of like he's trying to figure out what stopped her doing it. And what stops her doing it is she goes into her school and finds out there's been a school shooting thereby. He then reads that as like, oh my God, she didn't want to do it because someone else beat her to it. But actually what you see in the flashbacks is she looks into the eyes of this other student who's crying and she just burst into tears. And it's like when you're faced with the reality of things as a child, things feel so abstract. I remember death feeling really abstract. And then it happens and you think, oh my God, this is atrocious. Like you have. no experience of these things. And I can, it's quite an interesting commentary on what does happen when your dad owns a gun and when school shootings are really common. This is a really imperfect

and very sensitive comparison. So I want to make it well. But like when I was a teenager, I often, this is a really terrible thing about, but I would think about cutting myself because it was such a common thing and you saw it quite a lot. And because it was a thing that you knew was done, I would think maybe that's something that I should do. I know that I shouldn't do that. But I also know that that's a thing that I've heard that people do. And it's not a perfect thing. But if school shootings are happening all the time, you've got access to guns, it's kind of in the water around you and you've never experienced it that close to you. You can kind of see how a teenager would get from A to B. It's not, it's actually not, it's wild, but it's like, like, they say that really amazing point about

like how many people in the street have thought about it. It's like the fact that she had access to a gun. She could never have thought about doing it if her dad didn't have a gun in the house. Like, it's a really big question around like gun access. And then, yeah, when you see the reason that she also, it just shows like the way that children's brains work is the minute that she gets her friendship group in the school when she starts talking about gun violence because she's really knowledgeable about it because she's been researching it for her own shooting that she's planning. The students at the school think, wow, she's really clued up on this. We want you to be the main speaker in our anti-gun violence.

And she immediately just goes with it. I remember having things like that at a school where I didn't really know. And the minute someone said to me, oh, you seem good at that. It just became my personality because I was like someone else has told me now. She didn't have any strongly held beliefs. she obviously felt like she was a bit of an odd one out. Her instances of bullying to Charlie didn't feel like they were good enough. But I think it's a really interesting point you make about the fact that she's a young black girl

because had that been roles reversed, it wouldn't work with Robert Patterson's character because he's English. But if it had been a white American young man who talked about doing a school shooting, I think I would feel much less forgiving. On the flip side, we have the interesting thing where Rachel's character believes that she is absolutely free to have committed this. childhood crime and is that something she believes that she's permitted to be absolved of because she's white like there's so many interesting things that make it quite a fascinating examination of like identity politics and a moral quandary and ethics and kind of outrage because a lot of the reaction I was seeing on Twitter was people being like people saying what I was saying which is

that I think I'd be able to get over that if someone told me that yes I'd have to interrogate it but eventually I'd think that's fucking nuts but okay and everyone was going you You wouldn't be like that because when we get online, someone says that they ate an orange and they ate the peel with it and then you want to cancel them. So it's true because we do get outraged by things online. You are right. And I read this snippet from a vice review and they perfectly put it into words I hadn't yet been able to. They said, the drama is an excruciating portrayal of modern masculinity in all of its vanity, self-regard and obsession with being seen to do the right thing. Patinson's flawless cheekbones and enviable jawline are reduced to a mask of anxiety and doubt. The artfully tussled hair, which once hinted at an ephiless charm, now reveals his inner disarray.

And I think the more you think about this film, the more I've thought about this film, sorry, the more I just am like, it's so amazing because it keeps revolving who I think the villain is, if there even is a villain, but obviously the person who's actually most to blame. Obviously, the most obvious answer initially Zendaya's character Emma. But then people have been saying that Rachel Alana Heim's character is actually the quote-unquote villain. And she plays her amazingly because she just judges her immediately. She invites this open conversation about what the worst thing is you've done. She shares something that, you know, debatable, but does sound like arguably one of the worst things that any of them share. And then also her husband, a black man, shares his, which I don't even think was that bad. him and an ex-girlfriend had been attacked by a dog

to protect himself. He essentially uses his girlfriend as a human shield just to get out of the scenario. I thought that was quite bad. Do you think that was bad? I thought I would never put you someone as a human shields to get bitten by a dog, would you? I wouldn't do that, but I think, you know,

in like fight or flight, you just do something crazy because the dog's coming at you. I'm just like, well, obviously you would do something crazy like that because you are attacked, whereas Alana Heim's character, Rachel, is not attacked. by anyone she chooses a cruelty right and then anyway this is why it's so good because you can argue about every single person's but charlie doesn't say anything which a i think is rude as hell when everyone is bearing their soul of the worst thing i think that is a red flag number one if you're ever

in a conversation where everyone is bearing their soul and somebody just like laughs awkwardly and they're like ah ha ha i don't know and then just doesn't say anything i think that's rude he said he cyber bullied someone once but it was like very kind of tenuous level that was he it seemed like he just made that up. It was a cop out. Yeah, it is a cop out. I think it is a cop out. And I think the interesting thing about him from the beginning and the jump is that he curated the whole story of their meet you. It seems like he approached her. Actually, what happened was he approached her several times. He looked up the book on his phone that she was reading to orchestrate a way to talk to her, which is, they have this very eerie music when it's happening, which is really funny, because it could be

charming but also with the hindsight of the whole film it just shows you right from the beginning there's this like porcelain version of their meet queue and then there's the reality which is actually him being a bit of a weirdo looking up the book and then you know like pretending up until the second or first or second date that he knew the book and then coming clean i read in this piece that it's ironic his job as a curator because up until this moment of smashing of who she is in his eyes. He's kind of curated this whole idea of who she is. She says one thing and it's blown his very fragile idea of who she is because he just put her up on this pedestal as this gorgeous woman. And then it's just like he can't handle it. He spins out. He nearly cheats on her. He does

all of these things, these terrible things. Is he the villain? He might just be. And then the second thing I was going to say is, I love how the drama follows this like new lineage of like anti-romcoms. I don't know if you guys watch Flesh starring Daisy Edgar Jones and a film called Oh High, which is like, I can't remember her name, but amazing love lead in The Bear, basically as this woman who like goes on her first getaway with a boyfriend and it becomes like a horror film and like she nearly kills him. And Flesh is a similar thing, starts as a meet cute, then becomes something like very horrific. It's really interesting seeing how horror is taking like what seems to be romance and just like

spinning it completely in like a different field. I think it's like quite a fun thing. I can't, I actually can't wait to hear what people think of this because I think there are so many ways to spin it. Even trying to find a villain is one way to look at this when it is quite messy. When you were talking, I did have a flashback to you.

I used my grandma as a human shield once because my little brother was chasing me. And I knew that he wouldn't pinch her, but he would pinch me. And so I'm like, that's kind of morally grey. Maybe I should use that one. I think this film is, it's kind of ideal for us, but it is also ideal for going. cinema, leaving the cinema. I feel like people could have an argument about this, especially couples

thinking they might get married, being like, that's no big deal. Other people, again, we're British. We are looking it from across a whole ocean. Other people have a different take. Hopefully people will get stuck into this with us. There was one, and I know we've been talking about a million years, but there was a review that I read on Roger Ebert's site by Robert Daniels. I think kind of nails the critique of this film, which is it has all these great ideas, doesn't quite seem to know what to do with them and he writes, despite her prowess, we get the sense that Emma is either retroactively black, product of colourblind casting or is plainly misconceived. Emma's distressing Louisiana set back story should elicit further questions about the public presentation of black women as

either docile or dangerous, the exoticism of black women to white men as an other to be fixed, the naughty idea of a black woman as a madwoman and the South's persistent racism. Borgley can't fathom the historical continuum these queries arise from so he doesn't approach them. And then he kind of goes on to be like it's just, it's genuinely provocative, it's generally controversial and he doesn't, it kind of ends up being a little bit dull. But actually I think the discourse that is spurned plus the performances does make this a very successful film in my view. And I will watch it again and I think I will watch it, try and watch it through that more critical lens. It's interesting because I've read a lot of criticism to critics talking like

that where actually viewers of the film are saying they like the fact that the film brings up these questions. It's like ruffled all of the dust and we've got to go around trying to figure out what's caused it. And I think that is what makes it really fascinating. And I also want to talk about some of the extra characters we have in them. So Misha, who's played by Haley Benton, who is the woman that Charlie works with. He asks about the worst things she's ever done. She admits to cheating. They then have this, I mean, it is kind of sexual harassment. He kisses her and then they go to sleep with each other. She's a fascinating character. It's kind of like everyone's walking around with all these secrets. And then the woman who is from, she's also in The Materialists and she's one of the women

that Dakota Johnson's character was trying to set up. She's the photographer. She was amazing. And I saw someone saying that they wished that Dakota Johnson's character from the materialist could pop up in this film as if those universes were like combined. But I think what is amazing about the film and I haven't seen one like this for ages is that it touches on so many things. And I think it's relying on the audience having an opinion or feeling conflicted rather than a lot of the critical reception has been, you haven't answered these questions, you haven't given us a resolution. I don't mind that at all. And another thing I thought was interesting was I was I was coming out at the cinema and a couple of girls were talking to each other and one of them said, God, everyone was laughing so much. I really wonder if they would be laughing in the US.

And that is a big question that I do wonder. Again, I really had to grapple with the fact that I do not know what a mass shooting. is like, and it was, I'm sure a lot of it was played for laughs. Like there's bits where it goes back to Emma's character when she's a kid and she's trying to film these videos of her and then her computer just keeps like logging her out or stopping. And like there's definitely bits that are meant to be funny, but I am intrigued like it's, it's like a black comedy rom-com. It's a really interesting place where it sits. But I can imagine people getting very, very angry about this film as well.

And I have seen some reaction of people saying it's kind of like trivializing mass shootings. I actually think that it's quite an interesting comment on gun violence and the licensing around guns, you know, if there weren't any guns, would there be any mass shootings? No. I agree with you and I have to say it as well. I obviously have no concept, no lived concept, no like mental concept, emotional concept of what it's like to live even adjacent to school shootings. So there is that and that's the level I come in to this with. I also think it's really astounding and really provocative to do a storyline like this because we have spoken about how so many films feel really sanded off, you know, the conclusions

are really spoon-fed, especially in today's age of like, it takes a lot to be able to make a film. I think it is really provocative. And I have to be impressed with that level of just like bravery to do something that is not easy and to welcome discourse and also a lot of criticism. There will be a lot of understandable pushback and criticism to this film. And it doesn't feel like I've seen a film that has gone there for years. I can't think of anything that is adjacent to this that has like really is very obviously going to challenge people.

So I don't know. I am impressed with that still regardless because it takes a lot. It takes a lot of fucking gumption to put out a film like this, you know? Agree. And listeners, if you have, if you've got to take with spoilers, DM us, if you've got to take that spoiler free, please put in our Spotify comments because we will engage. I'm so ready to engage. I'm so ready to engage.

Let's get engaged. Oh wait, I have one last thing that I want to say because Ritia is getting married. The only thing that took me out of it was it is not realistic, is it? To be going and picking up your flowers like a week before doing a wedding tasting of the meal like on the week of the wedding. All of that stuff has done months in advance, isn't it?

Yeah, no, no, no, no, not at all. I was thinking that and the amount of time she was like throwing up the next day. I was like, your wedding is in a week. This is plans so badly. The whole thing is moral quandary, go because we haven't even spoken about like the DJ that was allegedly smoking crack and like it's the whole thing as sort of like where do you point the finger who's in the wrong like it's it's actually like a really fun game of like pin the tail of the donkey I was like she can smoke crack on

her own time if she turns up to work on time what's the problem well it was heroin as well so easy oh is that changed things oh crack and heroin are the same thing from connoisseurs that we obviously are not thank you so much for listening this week before we go just checking that you have listened to our latest Everything in Conversation episode where we discuss Lindy West, New Memoir, Adult Braces and why it calls the internet to have a weeks long meltdown. Do log on to Apple Podcasts and leave us a lovely rating and review. Hop over onto Spotify and tap those keyboards because we want to hear your thoughts on everything and anything. Please also give us a follow on Instagram and TikTok at Everything is Content Pod.

See you next Wednesday. Bye. Bye.