Everything Is Content - Virgin Island, Cannes' Naked Dress Ban & Sinners

Episode Date: May 16, 2025

Virgins, Vampires & A Very Demure, Very Mindful dress-code... what more could you want? Happy Everything Is Content day!First up this week, we're discussing a new reality TV show that premiered on Channel 4... and Love Island it ain’t. Virgin Island follows 12 adults between the ages of 22 and 30 who have yet to have sex, as they embark on a journey of sexual self discovery on a retreat off the coast of Croatia. There are sex therapists, sex surrogates, group activities, bonding exercises, massages, solo sessions and more. Is it exploitative? Is it heartwarming? Is it too much for our prudish British sensibilities? Listen to find out!Next up, in a very non-French move, there's an anti-nipple vendetta at one of the most glamorous events of the year. One day before the 78th film festival began, Cannes updated the official website to say that ‘For decency reasons, nudity is prohibited on the Red Carpet, as well as in any other area of the Festival.' Is this more conversative-creep? Or is just a reactionary decision based on the Bianca Censori Grammy's stunt?And last but by no means least, Sinners. It’s been described as a Southern vampire fantasia and another incredible addition to Black horror. Michael B Jordan plays gangster twins, the “Smokestack twins’ specifically, who reconnect with their younger Blues loving cousin, Sammie, who helps them open up a juke joint. But they’re soon confronted with the absolutely menacing Jack O Connell, who plays head vampire Remmick. Soon things spiral out of control and it becomes a war between the last remaining few and the growing swarm of vampires. And they’ve just got survive the last few hours of nightfall. We give our thoughts!Beth's loving: The Wedding People by Alison EspachRuchira's loving: Universality by Natasha BrownOenone's loving: A Court Of Mist and Fury by Sarah J. Maas (audiobook)Virgin IslandSinners review – Ryan Coogler’s deep-south gonzo horror down at the crossroadsHow director Ryan Coogler’s historic Sinners deal with Warner Bros could change his lifeAs always we hope you enjoy + please do leave a review on your podcast player app as it helps others to find the podcast B.R.O xx Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm Beth. I'm Rachera. And I'm Anoni. And this is Everything is Content. This is the podcast where we select the best pop culture stories from the week and analyze them in depth. From TV to TikTok, celeb gossip and viral articles, we cover it all. We're vampires biting into you with a venom of pop culture every week.

This week on the podcast, we're diving into Virgin Island, the new fashion rules at Cannes, and the return of sexy vampires in Sinners. Follow us on Instagram at everythingiscontentpod and make sure you hit follow on your podcast player so you never miss an episode. But first, I have to know, what have you both been loving this week? I have a book to recommend. Finally, I went on holiday and all I did was, it was all inclusive. I just like snacked at the buffet, sat down, read a book, snacked at the buffet, glass of wine, another book. So I'm going to choose, I'm going to start at the very top with my favorite book and I'm going to work backwards week in, week out. In 10 weeks time, we're

going to have my least favorite. So my recommendation is Wedding People by Alison Espack. And it is about a recent-ish American divorcee in her early 40s called Phoebe, who has traveled to stay for just one night in a very luxurious hotel on Rhode Island or in Rhode Island. I'm not really sure if it's a real island. Due to post-COVID staffing hotel chaos, she ends up right smack bang in the middle of a wedding party. The bride is this 28-year-old, very rich, high-strung woman who thinks she's got the entire place for her and her wedding party. Then there's this out of place, divorced, quite depressed woman right in the middle of it. She gets sucked into that orbit and it's so funny. It's so charming. I said on Instagram when I was recommending it, fans of Curtis Sitenfield's romantic comedy, David

Nichols fans, even like Jenny Egan fans because it's quite dark in parts and it's just very funny. It's a book, I think a lot of people like this on their holes. There is a really key detail, which you do find out in the first chapter or so. It's in a lot of the marketing materials, but I thought it was so good. I was not expecting it. I was like, oh, Fairfax, I will not be putting this book down until it's finished. I just thought it was absolutely fantastic. I think it came out last year and now it's having a little second day in the sun. Maybe the payback came out, but yeah, read this book. God bless. That sounds so good. And just even comparing it to Curtis Lyttonfield, I'm already sold.

I'm definitely going to read that now. Just so impressed by all of your reading. Mine has really dropped off. You're my inspiration. Got a gone holiday. Get on holes. Are you doing this on a Kindle? Do you know what? Yeah, that has been my saving grace because a lot of it, I mean, I love like a 99p deal. I love, I'm actually trying to jailbreak my Kindle. I think it's legal to do because I'd quite like to not use Mr. Bezos for everything. My dad's figuring out at the moment, but I was using Kindle and it just changed the game because

I could zip around. I essentially took a thousand books on holiday with me and that was my mom with one. Loser. That is such a hack. Yeah, I'm so anti-kindle just because I'm such a purist about having a physical book and I want to have the book in my home. But I was thinking about this the other day when I went away last week, I didn't take any books because I took a hand luggage under the seat backpack in which I packed my outfit for the wedding, three days' worth of clothes, my running kit, which I obviously did not wear, including my running trainers,

which took up half the bag. And so I could have fit a book in there if I didn't bring running trainers, which obviously was the stupidest thing I've ever done. And I was so upset the whole time I was there that my phone broke. So I had so many fallow hours when the bridesmaids were doing stuff while I was just sat in a room, like- With your thoughts. Honestly, watching Italian TV, trying to understand what was going on. You're a book person as well. I can imagine you did feel very naked and nude. Yeah, I love a Kindle. I love any reader. I think just give it a go because I think the possibilities do outweigh that little niggling like, I need to smell. I need to smell in the crease. I wish I hadn't said it

like that, but you know what I mean? I'm so in so relate in the book, you know what I mean, when you put your nose in. I guess the possibilities, they literally are endless. And I feel like there's no worse feeling than when you're on holiday and say you've allotted like two books, but then you end up finishing those two and you're just completely absent for like three days or something and you're just beside yourself. It's just, it's not a nice feeling. Yeah, it's not a good feeling.

You're like bartering around the pool with other holiday makers. Yeah, it sucks. What about you Anoni, what have you been loving? Well, actually funny enough, I, so when I got back from this trip, you know when you have an inordinate amount of washing to do and I need to clean my flat

and I was like, oh, I just want to listen to something. And I realized I had an audible credit. So I decided to dip my toe back into Akita. So I'm listening to the third book. Cause you know, I read the first two and I have to say I'm enjoying it as a listening experience cause it's so low energy and I have been like Zoom, not really paying that much attention, but there are bits.

I think how many hours am I? I've got 12 hours left. I think it's about 25 hours. There's something quite interesting happening at this point. So I've kind of zoned in for that. But I'm glad that I'm listening to it rather than reading it because yeah, it wouldn't get my full attention. But it's nice to know that you've got a solid 25 hours of stuff to listen to when you've got a lot of chores. So I've been, when I say loving, have I been loving it? I've been welcoming it as a distraction from my own thoughts whilst doing mundane live tours.

It's too much pressure just saying loving. Yeah, it's just what has gone into your eyes and eyes. I've got a question on the actor. Is it like the straight audio book or do you have one of those sexy dramatized with like heavy breathing because I've heard about these? Oh, no. So I saw that and I got really confused and I didn't read what it was and I just thought I'm just going to go with the straight version because that sounds really intense. And I misread it as well when I saw that I kind of thought that meant that it was like a bumper, it's got more and I was like I don't need any more than 25 hours of this.

I think it's just a bit smartier, like in terms of the heavy breathing and like the low growly voices. I will be downloading that at some point, but I'm glad to hear you went with that. Did you not read that? I thought you read the whole thing. The Christian version. I did, but I read it to myself like an idiot. So I had to make up all the voices in my head, but I would like someone to read it to me, hornily, shall we say. Okay. Got you. What have you been loving, Ritera? all the voices in my head, but I would like someone to read it to me, hornily, shall we say.

Okay, got you. What have you been loving, Racheira? So I have a rare book to bring, which is Natasha Brown's Universality, which I read and consumed so quickly. I mean, it is a short book. It's, I think, 150-ish pages. So there's that. But I really enjoyed it. Have you both read this? Yes. I can't remember if I recommended it a while ago, but it's at the beginning of the year, but it is really good. Really enjoyable, right? I'm very almost finished this. It was quite deceptive, I think, because it's that small.

It's very good, but I thought, oh, that will take a few days. And so I read some of it in a beer garden once. And then some guy came over to ask me questions about it. It was really nice. But I was like, well, he could see I just read one page and I went, well, I could read you the blurb. It's about like a kind of gold bar that goes missing. He was like, tell me more. And I was like, well, I'll have to read it first. But I have not finished it yet. It is, I'm looking at it right now. It's on the pile by my bed, sort of winking at me a bit judgmentally while I talk about wanting to download really long smart. I will get to you. Do you want

to tell, because actually I don't think we've ever gone into, what is the book about for the listeners? So the beginning is very much in the style of penance where it is this long read article style journalism piece. But it's also satirizing that, which I only picked up with some certain lines. It's almost like a bit of a pretentious long read about a gold bar that's gone missing and this corresponding case of a co-op that kind of descends and spirals into just a terrible situation. It's locked down, this co-op runs an illegal rave and at this illegal rave, an individual figure has this gold bar and smacks the co-op leader and essentially he ends up in a

coma because of it. And this one journalist starts off with the piece that she writes this whole case and links all of these differing people together to do with this and kind of takes this outward look at where society is going, what are the kind of main figures that are spiralling and I guess inflaming politics and society at the minute. It's very zeitgeisty. Yeah. And I think it's got figures who you could compare to a Piers Morgan type, to a Katie Hopkins. I think you've got a bit of a prospect magazine satire in there. You've got these kind of nepotism journalists and then you've got working class journalists trying to break through and no one is evil. No one is perfectly bad or perfectly good,

which I always love in a book. It's moral ambiguity and you constantly are changing who you feel sorry for and who you root for. Did you both read Assembly, her first book? I never, no I haven't, but I want to now. They're actually really, they're quite different, but I had the same with you Beth, because it's such a short book, but with that one, this one was more digestible I found. Assembly I actually found heavier and slightly harder, but I have to say to you Beth, the generosity of spirit that you think that that man was coming over to you to genuinely ask

you about a book that you were on page one of when he quite clearly was just coming over to try and chat to you and you're there panicking like, shit, how do I give a good plotted synopsis of this book? And then he's probably saying like, for fuck's sake, this is really bad fired. She's there reading me the blurb. I thought this is a really good way to approach her. Landing in my library card. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not, I'd never know if I'm being hit on. I always assume, I either assume,

always assume I am awkward at family parties or always assume that I'm not. So must remember. I think you should always assume you are. With your face, I think always are on the side of caution. You are. I agree. The most embarrassing thing I've ever done is have you ever been tutored and then turned around and they weren't actually tut to you? They're just like beeping someone. Because I do turn around ready to fight. That's what I did. I know I honestly did the other day and turned around and then I realized they were just beeping the queue of traffic. I saw a meme yesterday. It was a guy who was obviously like a shit post. He was like, I

thought a lady was waving at me so I waved back, turned around, realized she was waving at someone else. So I just committed to it, hail the cab, now I'm on a flight to Germany to start a new life. I relate to that. So odd. A new reality TV show premiered on Channel 4 this week and Love Island it ain't. Virgin Island follows 12 adults between the ages of 22 and 30 who have yet to have sex as they embark on a journey of sexual self-discovery on a retreat off the coast of Croatia. There are sex therapists, sex surrogates, group activities, bonding exercises, beach massages, solo sessions and more. So far, two out of the total six episodes have aired.

We've watched them both and I'm willing to bet a lot of you have watched them both as well. The next two episodes will be out next Monday and Tuesday and the final episodes will be out the Monday and Tuesday after that. And early reviews have already arrived and they're quite mixed to put it politely. The London Evening Standard gave it two stars asking, is watching people hump on TV anybody's idea of a good time? And maybe we'll answer that today or maybe not. The Guardian gave it three stars and called it a sex therapy show that Alan Partridge would pitch. And the Daily Mail said it was cruel, exploitative

and horribly uncomfortable to watch. Plenty of users of social media site X, formerly known as Twitter, have also naturally waited in, many of them calling it awkward, uncomfortable cringe and a few even suggesting that the contestants are being preyed on by their therapists and the show should be taken off air. So all in all, a perfect pick for everything that's content. Now I did suggest, Ruchira and Anoni, that you both watch this, but I am certain if I hadn't, one of you would have. Two episodes in now. Are you enjoying it? Are you dreading the next four episodes? Are you going to watch it? What are your first

impressions of Virgin Island? I'm surprised. I fully went in expecting to hate it. I had already prepped to be outraged, annoyed, frustrated at it. But what I actually felt was way more complicated where I thought it was quite sweet. I also had mixed feelings and confusion about the dynamics between the sex therapist. What do they call it? It's like their de facto partners, their step-in partners. The surrogates? Surrogates. Surrogates. That's it, the surrogates. And the group of virgins, people who haven't had sex yet.

Yeah, I don't know. I found it more confusing, but overall I didn't feel as angry by the end of it as I assumed I would. I was more earnestly interested, kind of felt quite moved by it and then also felt a bit confused. What about you and Oni? I was completely blind going in. I'd heard this show, but I'd never actually watched a trailer. And funny enough, when I was at home over the weekend, I was sat like a teenager on my phone, on a chair in the corner whilst my parents were watching the TV. And I wasn't looking at the screen and I could hear them talking about this Virgin Island, but I wasn't watching the ad. So I was like ambiently aware, which is really making me laugh now, imagining

my parents watching the ad for it having seen it because I wasn't watching it. I wasn't looking at the screen. So I had no idea. Firstly, I thought the contestants are really brave and it's amazing that they wanted to come forward and talk about it. I think it's a really interesting current phenomena, like the statistics and the fact that there are much more adult virgins than there ever have been before. And I think just that kind of ties into quite a few things we've spoken about in the past. Same as you, Rachael, though, I felt quite conflicted. So, I did find it quite sweet. I loved the openness. I was actually so impressed by their ability to communicate the people on the show, their emotions and feelings and their complicated relationship quite sweet. I loved the openness. I was actually so impressed by their ability to communicate

the people on the show, their emotions and feelings and their complicated relationship with touch and sex. Because I always, I guess I imagine someone that's, I don't know if repressed is a rude word, but someone that can't get in touch physically is probably quite far away from how they feel emotionally and there's barriers there and that didn't seem to be a thing. So the part of the contestants I found very sweet. I found them very brave. I think they're all really likable and I'm really championing the fact that they're, I always think it's really interesting when someone is ready to face front up an issue that they're struggling with, especially something so personal. But the surrogates, the therapists, I found it all quite strange and I tried to

stay open-minded because I didn't know how much of my guardedness around it was maybe like a closed-mindedness. But even when they stand up and there's this bit where they bring an object that carries shame for them, that represents a part of their sexual innocence or their inexperience, all of the surrogate therapists were like crying. And it was just making me think of, you know, when someone's like, I'm an empath, it was like the final boss of empaths. And I, I, it was almost too earnest. Then to go on to, which I'm going to more, I, I felt confused for them about, you know, the strictly come dancing curse is basically because when you dance so intimately with someone over a prolonged amount of time, you just immediately start to get feelings and you

fall in love. Even if you would never be with that person, it's just like the eventual outcome of having a close intimate tactile relationship with someone is you start to form feelings. I know this is what some of the reviews said. My fear was that, and even with one of the guys, I think it feels apparent that immediately, is this going to actually leave them more scarred in the long run? Like how much can you be a surrogate, a once removed sexual partner of someone who's never had one, where you're actually displaying levels of intimacy that most virgins don't have? A lot of it is just sort of, I want to say, bump and dump. Anyway, very long-winded thought. Beth, what did you think? I think that's such an interesting point that you

said about the ethics and the boundaries of the therapist and the, it's hard to say, it's not clients, so I guess the subject, the participants, because I would love to see behind the scenes how they explain it, whether they have to sign anything. I did see like an infographic because I think this is not like an accredited type of therapy. This is something which is broadly legal in places and I'm sure different systems in place. But I saw a little infographic that was like, if you look after yourself as a sex surrogate, this might happen. And one of the things was like, you might catch feelings. You're like, fucking hell. That's just so leagues away from what we understand as therapy here, especially

in the UK on this island. We're quite buttoned up. I thought that was quite interesting. I wonder whether it's in Croatia because of certain sexual exchange laws. But anyway, I echo what you both said. I'm really enjoying it more than I thought. I did have those fears going in. I kind of was like, oh, what if it's a typical reality TV format? What if they love Ireland? What if they get voted off for doing a bad hand job? Obviously it was never going to be that, but I was really primed to be so, to hate it almost to be, but it is, I think it's sensitive. I think it's interesting. I'm quite surprised by it's just so naively. I'm quite surprised by the hand wringing that I've seen. I knew people would make fun of it because

it's, I mean, it's called Virgin Island and we're in the UK and we love making fun of people. Especially the earnestness, not to get into what they do on the show, which I'm sure we will. There's exercises where they have to pretend to be zoo animals, where they have to hump each other, where they have to kind of, you know, it's getting already quite sexual, I should have expected. But I didn't expect it to be as puritanical, the shock about these sexual surrogates and things. I think that backlash has been surprising. Calling them predators, calling them middle-aged sex addicts, preying on the vulnerable, e.g. people who haven't had sex. I know someone who used a sex surrogate, who went to sex

therapy and then at the end of the talking bit, they had sex. And the first time I heard about this, and they weren't a virgin, but it was for sexual anxiety. And this was years ago. They told me, I was like, wow, I had never heard of it before. I mean, I hope everyone, obviously you both know and everyone listening, like it was no judgment from me. I don't have that setting about stuff like this, but I was like, wow, this is brand new information. So, I thought maybe people watching would be like, wow, I didn't know about this. This is fascinating. Let me learn more. But everyone's immediately like, nope, prison. And I'm a bit nervous because I think, obviously, I think the idea is they're going to shag, aren't they? At the end of this, I think the idea is that, you know, already we've seen some

dry humping. I think this culminates in like penetrative sex, maybe oral sex, I don't know. That's obviously the only two types of sex I know about. Maybe you two know about more. I think it's going to get quite explicit and I think Ofcom is going to explode because I think they're going to shag. People have lost their rag at the first two episodes. You're so right. People are not going to handle four or five and maybe episode six and seven, whatever's left to come. It's such a British sensibility because we're so weird about sex in this country. And actually what I was thinking was, this would have been useful

to learn at 16, like I wouldn't like with other almost like with other teenagers, because there is, it's quite lovely. I think what makes it so shocking is the, the earnestness, like the breathing, like it's kind of strips away the dirtiness of sex, which is what we talk about sex like in a way that's kind of behind closed doors. This is bringing it all out into the four and exploring what it really is. It was making me think of Miranda July or fours again, because this is kind of what the male character and that experiences with a friend of his mother who kind of like teaches him how to have sex. And I don't know if in other cultures, this is like more normalized. It's certainly such an interesting phenomenon

to be bringing to the UK, but it was just making me think there's so much more that we could learn about sex and intimacy that would be so useful for so many people. And I was shocked by the fact that they would have sex with them at the end, because I found that quite confusing. And like you said, that sexual exchange, I've never heard of it like in that context. I do, I do, I have to say, I do have a bit of like, not that I find them creepy at all, they all seem like really nice people. And they all seem very, as I said, woo, is the wrong word, again, like earnest and spiritual and they clearly care very deeply. I just, to me, I have, do have a bit of a Brit switch,

which goes, ah, stuff like this. No, I completely get that reflex. I also had a similar reflex. And it's horrible to feel something exposed that there is a prudish bone in your body, because I think we're all on the same page where I think we all like to think that we don't have any of that left in us. And we've like unlearned loads of it, but a show like this really does like hold a mirror up to that final piece in your body that goes, oh, oh, when you see it on the screen. I also wanted to raise the stat because I still find this really shocking, even though we know that people are having less sex generationally now than they used to, I think hearing it was so surprising to me. So one in eight 26 year olds in England today are

still virgins and that compares to one in 20 from previous generations. And I also wanted to bring up Hannah Ewen's review for The Independent. I thought she made some really good points about it and I know, Beth, you've got this in our doc already about the differences between the men and the women and their sexual anxieties. It's almost presented as if the men's anxieties are more easily tackled by literal physical touch and moving up the body, progressing through physical. Whereas there's one girl in it, one woman who is with a man the male surrogate He gets to her leg and she viscerally looks in pain. She looks like she's about to have a panic attack She freaks out and it feels very uncomfortable

You can see that she's really highly distressed and I think I hope they go into this more in the later series But I think it's quite a typical understanding that female sexuality, a lot of female sexual sexuality is emotion based, whereas a lot of male sexuality can be physical and can be, you know, attributed to touch and physicality. And I really hope they go down the emotional route with her in particular, because it seems like having gone just through touch straight away, she really just went the other way. And she even said herself that she might, she doesn't know if she'll continue with the show. And it was very upsetting to watch, I thought. There's a great book called Tomorrow Sex Will Be Good Again, which I'm sure I've mentioned before by Katherine Angel, which is, it's about female desire. And it's about the

history of female desire, the Me Too movement, the biology of female desire and looked at sexual case studies. I found it really interesting because it shines light on the fact that we have all these, I can't remember the two, there was a TV show made about them, but two famous man and woman sex researchers who did this groundbreaking study. She shines a light on that and it's like, what we know about sexual desire is basically based on a handful of women who were quite unlike other women in the fact that they would get into a little tube and bank for scientists. Even that we just have never had such a clear picture of it. Female desire, female sexuality, and arousal is often responsive. It's like you do something to get it there, whereas for

men it's often spontaneous. not blanket, not 100% all the time. The book's excellence is not super long. I would recommend it. And I think watching this, I did think a lot about desire, about a lot of the ways that approaches of these therapists to try and understand desire of all the participants to, a lot of the men do seem to be there. They want to check things off the list. They want to go from this point A to point B to feel less like a virgin. I think there's something in a few of the female participants who they're trying to unravel some incredibly lifelong trauma in some cases, and complete confusion, disconnect with their bodies. It's not just a case of sex has never happened.

It's a case of sex has never happened. It's a case of they don't understand how sex ever could happen. They don't believe they could ever have an orgasm. I'm finding it fascinating. I'm also finding it quite interesting how I, watching this, see the men and the women differently. I was watching it thinking, well, I'll definitely feel kind of differently about the men and the women, but I'll be fair. I think I had preconceptions, misconceptions. I'm looking at women thinking, I think I feel quite protective of them, but understanding them as A-OK and it just feels like I hope they feel better. The men, I'm like, oh God, this must be really rough for you. I almost feel really pitying of the men

because I guess I know, and maybe that's not fair of me, but I guess I know socially where other men put men that don't conform like that and it is very much out in the cold. It's that we prize virginity in women, which is harmful to women. We also prize men being virginity takers, de-flowerers and stuff. It's all like in a broken patriarchal society, men are supposed to be top shaggers and ostracized when they're not. Women are meant to be, I was about to say bottom shaggers, but that's not it at all, but like meant to not have. The whole thing just got me thinking we have completely,

I think a lot of us probably need to go to Virgin Island and relearn how to understand desire, sexuality, concern, because I think we're actually very, very broken on it. I agree with you, I completely agree. The only other thing I wanted to say was, were you shocked by the ages? Because when I first heard the premise, I was imagining people to be in their 40s,

you know, older and for that to be the source of shame. But I was really surprised and taken aback by the number of people who were 23, 24, 25 on the show. And I guess it really reminded me of the cultural stigma around virginity because to me, I was like, oh, I really, I really don't think you have anything to worry about. That's still a period of growth for people that I personally wouldn't blink an eyelid if somebody told me that. Like, I don't think that that is shameful, but then

I understand that society is built to shame that. Well, I guess I think everyone kind of starts that idea of because the age of consent is 16, that's around the age when we were at school that everyone was kind of gunning to get rid of it, just to kind of have it out of the way. But I agree, like your early 20s, there were lots of people that I knew that lost their virginity at uni, like around that age bracket. But a lot of them do cite at the beginning of the show, you know, the reasons. One of the things they said is social media. And another thing they said that I wanted to go back to a couple of things you're both talking about was porn. And I wanted to reference something that I said in that episode, quoting

Jordan Stevens, because it related to what both of you were saying about how, you know, for men, it's much more physical and for women, it's much more mental. But Jordan Stevens made that point. And like you said, Beth, it's spontaneous. He said that sometimes that can be confusing for men because your body can make a betrayal of your mind. So where women, our bodies are entirely responsive mostly to whether or not we're mentally prepared, our bodies will lubricate and change shape and whatever and become welcoming for activity when we feel mentally ready enough. Whereas Jordan was saying, what can be weird is your body can be going like, I want to have sex right now and your brain is going, I don't. And he said that can make consent really confusing, which I thought was such

an interesting area that hadn't been explored as much. And I also thought it was interesting about that you said that you pitied the men because I didn't feel that. My maybe problematic idea was with the men, I felt like they all actually kind of wanted to have sex. It's just the opportunity hadn't arisen either because of their own insecurities or fear of like talking to women or just the situation hadn't come up. And so like, like especially one of them is really keen to kind of escalate the process quicker. Whereas the women, it was like, they couldn't, some of them couldn't even think about Emma, especially the one that you spoke about, Rachira, when they were asked to write kind of like an erotic fantasy. Her whole fantasy was actually just about safety, someone

that was kind, someone's going to be nice to her. It was not remotely sexual. And there was a huge, it is what you're saying, it's that kind of like, it wasn't even about the physical intimacy. It was actually about feeling safe within yourself. And Emma, I found particularly tragic, I think, because it made me feel sad about what I do for work in terms of influencing in that industry. And that was like the things she kept coming back to about her own security. And she's objectively like such a beautiful young woman. And she was just going on about how it just, it made me desperately, desperately sad for young women, because I know that so many people must feel that way. And I wonder how comforting it will be for lots of people to hear her speaking like that. But yeah,

I did think the men and women thing was interesting. Sorry, my problematic thing was I felt like the women who were the surrogates offered, I could believe that they could safely offer this kind of sexual surrogacy experience, maybe because I see women as maternal, was the man with Emma. I felt protective of her and worried about him deriving pleasure from it, which is so wrong, but I found it easier to believe that the surrogate women were kind of acting or facilitating and harder to believe that the surrogate men wouldn't also have some slice of sort of personal gratification, which is really wrong of me to think. I don't think that's wrong of you. It is just a completely different playing field. The

fact that she is struggling with feeling safe, and then also the dynamics with us just existing in a patriarchy and with all the dangers that come with engaging with men, especially in a sexual arena. It is just, it is impossible to implement that same feeling of safety in those two different scenarios. And that's exactly nail on the head of the thing I wasn't able to articulate. With somebody who is particularly worried about safety, I don't know if this is the prime way to encourage that. And especially that being one of the first tasks. I would love to know more about any kind of, any worker in this realm of sexual sorority.

I'd love to interview one. Maybe I'll put the feeders out for this part because I do think it's such an unknown and it does immediately throw up all of these questions about how do they take care of themselves? How did they manage their own sort of emotional? Because the point is you're helping someone else overcome something emotional.

How do you keep your own, you know, it's like, you know, what I'd ask a therapist, but just a slightly more unusual one in my mind. So I remember listening to different podcasts and they were talking about this kind of jokingly, but there's something called a yoni massage, which is basically where someone brings you to orgasm through and your yoni is your vagina, I think in kind of like spiritual language. And I think it's done in a much more clinical setting that they have to be certified. You can get it done in the UK. It's done in like a clinical setting. You are being penetrated by someone's hands, but it's not intimate in the way that this show is. I think that's

what's quite shocking about the show. It's like when they start heavily breathing and there's kind of a conveyance of emotional intimacy as well as physical whereas a yoni massage is someone, I think it helps women that suffer with vaginismus when your like vagina tightens up or like struggle to orgasm. So that would almost, and especially if you're someone who's a straight person, who's not attracted to women, maybe that would feel slightly safer having like a practitioner where it feels like there's no chance of sort of like sexual attraction. It's very much someone needing your dough to pronounce it. But that, I was

like, I have, I've heard of that and that I weirdly found less intrusive. I think it's the marriage of the actual intimacy, even though I know that that is actually the, that's what we're talking about. The issue is, is, you know, not always as a collapse. I think that's the problem that I'm finding with the show, because it's, it's, it's almost orbiting around them eventually doing a sexual act. Whereas I think the reasons for every single person on this show are so different. I don't know if applying the same techniques to every single person makes sense. I think with somebody like Emma, because it feels so psychosexual, I completely agree with you. It just feels like she needs a completely different treatment plan to the guy at the beginning who's loving the physical intimacy

and immediately makes huge progress and feels like he's really charging forward with the treatment plan of the show. I just think, I guess with anything this complex, that's the issue. Not everyone is going to respond in the same way or require the same method to get there. And maybe even for her, maybe having sex is not the end goal. Maybe the end goal is her being able to land in her body, being able to experience physicality and feeling safe there before even considering touch with any other person that feels that feels more moderate and more applicable to her in my opinion. So Yoni is Sanskrit for vagina.

So just one day before the 78th Film Festival began, Cann updated the official website to say that for decency reasons, nudity is prohibited on the red carpet, as well as any other area of the festival, and voluminous outfits, in particular those with a large train that hinder the proper flow of traffic of guests and complicate seating in the theatre, are not permitted. The festival welcoming teams will be obligated to prohibit red carpet access to anyone not respecting these rules. And this has had quite a lot of outrage on the timeline because as you will know the Naked dress has long been a red carpet staple for many A-listers, from more recently Florence Pugh and Bella Hadid to historically Kate Moss and Naomi Campbell. And most recently,

it was Bianca Sensori's totally sheer mini at the Grammys earlier this year that took the style to its probably most literal definition yet. And actually lots of people are speculating that perhaps it was this particular stunt that spooked the organizers. Because Cannes did release a statement clarifying the intent of their rules on the 12th of May saying, the aim is not to regulate attire per se, but to prohibit full nudity on the red carpet in accordance with the framework of the event and French law. But it still feels interesting because when we think of France, do we not think of topless sunbathing, bra-less women and quite an enviously laissez-faire approach to nipples. But interestingly, I don't know if you remember

in 2016, the resort town on the French Riviera also came under fire for its bikini ban which decreed that Muslim women wearing bikinis on the beach would be a threat to public order. And Shahed Ezeadeh in Stylus wrote, a woman dressing modestly and covering her head for religious reasons is not allowed and a woman in a sheer dress is also seen as indecent. You need to dress conservatively but not too conservatively. It's a lose lose situation. And just looking back at like women wearing new dresses, Rose McGowan famously wore a see-through dress to the MTV Music Awards in 1998. And she told Yahoo Entertainment years later, she said, it was my first big public

appearance after being sexually assaulted. It was like at the end of Gladiator when he comes out and he's like, are you not entertained? And if you look at me, I did it with power. I didn't do it with my hand on my hip to be sexy. And many social media users have suggested that this move is indicative of the conservatism creep that we've discussed many a time on this podcast. Maybe it really was just a rule built off the back of that one example earlier this year, but it feels shocking nonetheless for high fashion, especially French event to put parameters around sartorial expression. There were some funny tweets at Libra Baby tweeted,

there's really an attack on bad bitches these days. Oh my God. At Wasteland Baby said, oh my God, what is Florence Pugh going to do? And at Moonized said, nipples getting banned in France, rising fascism indicator. I wanted to know what you both thought. Do you think it's just a flash in the pan or do you think it's an omen for what's to come? And do you think other big events will also follow suit? I definitely think what you said about conservatism creep is how I feel about this is just to me a very reactionary take to the fact that Bianca Sensori wore that dress and it became

possibly stressful for the event. It became the biggest talking point at that time and detracted from the cause, but also who cares? I just, I think it is a blatant attempt to control the narrative around Khan this year. And also ultimately is just a massive step forward in terms of telling women what they can and can't wear and just pointlessly, pointlessly entering into conservatism around women's bodies. And I think also the point about the 2016 Burkini ban is so valid and so important in this discussion. It is just so ridiculous, so outrageous, so appalling to know that that contextually happened not that long ago. And we're still seeing the same kind of behavior coming in in 2025 is outrageous. Yeah, I, but actually, before I begin, I'm going to apologize to any French listeners,

I'm going to say the festival name like can like being like Bean Cannes, because I don't know how to say it. I went to quite a not very good school and we did French and for the first six months, it's like year eight, she put on Friends on the TV, but she put it on the Spanish subtitles. So I should know a bit of French and I don't, but I think Cannes. I think it is Cannes. Cannes. Okay. I'm going to say Bean Cannes. I think you're right. I think I said it wrong. Cannes Festival. I think it is Cannes. You said it sexily. Okay. At Cannes. It feels like it's a very... Now it could have been that they did tell people months ago and then

just released it to public, but it felt... This was announced Monday. The Tuesday was meant to begin. Something like that. That feels, because loads of the women have already been starting rolling up in the really long dresses, so little idiots. I mean that about Cannes, not the gorgeous women. It just feels like quite a last minute attention grab almost. Why bother? If it was in place from last year, because obviously there were a few snafus last year with the dresses and that Usher who I'd love to talk about. Do you remember her? She was just getting in fights with absolutely everyone. I can understand after that you go, right, well, let everyone know we've got a year to tell people what they can and can't wear.

A day before, as it was reported, that just feels like a little bit of a grab for attention from them. It also felt very anti-Bela Hadid because all of the pictures, all of the news stories were using that one dress where she's wearing this kind of frou-frou-y, very sheer, sandy-coloured nippily dress, all with that picture of her, which I'm glad to see the picture of her because it's lovely. But it felt like, why are you singling out, friend of the podcast, gorgeous Bella Hadid? Why are you doing that to our beloved friend? It just all felt a little bit, actually quite tacky, to say this, to bother going there. It's a sartorial event. Send it out privately or just don't bother. I also think with high fashion, it's one of those places where you can show women's bodies

and then not overly sexualize. I remember being younger and always being so in awe of that picture of Kate Moss and that silver dress where you could see her nipples and anytime any actress wore like a sheer black top with their boobs out, I feel so envious because I thought I can't walk down the street wearing that because in public life someone's going to start shouting at you or like harassing you. But in fashion circles, you're able to be, your body is kind of seen as more of a piece of art and it's actually not overly sexualized. It really is quite a unique thing. And I do go to some events where I feel more confident to wear certain things because there is a level of appreciation for clothes, the way that they sit on the body and it is slightly

separated from other cultural interpretations of the way that we see bodies and fashion together. That makes me really sad to think that especially in France, they're kind of saying this because I've always, and I think everyone does, it's really weird. It's like we look at it through a different lens. Whereas if someone wore that to some other event, I don't know, we would have something to say about it. So I just think it's really sad to be policing. And I do worry that even though they say it's to ban full nudity, if this does leak and spread into other areas, it might seem very innocent. And obviously day to day, we're not really allowed to have our nipples out. We're famously not allowed to have

our nipples out on Instagram. But again, it's just this creep thing of ever more slowly, slowly, no showy showy until we're not allowed to speak, is my worry. Have you seen anything out there so far? Speaking of Bella Hadid, sorry, she is, I want to read the full thing that her dad said because everyone's just, she looks absolutely beautiful. She's dyed her hair like a sandy blonde. She's got these kind of like Cleopatra eyeliner, Princess of Nazareth, the great, great granddaughter of the ruler of Palestine in the 1700 Dah al-Oma and his sons that ruled Tabarra, Safad, Nazareth, Kali, Haifa and the rest of the land of Galilee.

Her dad said that. She's just unreal. And she had these amazing massive emeralds. Her dad said that years ago. I think it was actually the funny thing was, I think it was on Gigi's birthday. He then put up a picture of Bala being like Princess of Nazareth, the great, great granddaughter. And so whenever there's a really great picture of her, everyone on Twitter will just quote Rita with that. Obsessive Mohammedan Padeed, dad goals, absolute dad goals. Why is my dad not in the comments saying that? I don't understand.

I mean, my dad is in RDMs. I do try and like read them for you guys. Oh my God. I'm on Harper's Bazaar right now. And some of these looks, I want to talk. Some of these looks I'm not a big fan of. Not enough nipples. There's funny enough, there's loads of people wearing trains. I think Heidi Klum had a master train. Again, because I don't think they knew. So how are they supposed to... They could chop them off. They should get that usher there with a big pair of scissors. I have just seen Bala Hadid blonde and I do feel like I should have got a push notification from the BBC about this. She looks so good. I can't believe that's the first you're seeing

of her. She looks like a wag from the early 2000s. She looks scouse and I mean that. Brackets, a huge compliment. Well, this everyone was saying is very early noughties kind of it's very Mr. and Mrs. Smith. It's quite Jennifer Aniston. I want to take that to my hairdresser and she's going to be like, you fucking joking. You don't have Bella Hadid money. Well I want to do the eyeliner. I literally was lying in bed last night thinking how could I do the eyeliner and where am I going? What shape eyes do you have?

Every time I try to do eyeliner like that, it just smudges and makes my eyes look really small. Irina Shayk has brought back the hair donor. Have we seen this? No. Yeah, she looks very special. It's giving hair donor from the 2010s on the top of her head. One of my favorite people always ever

is Lady Victoria Harvey, who is also the queen of wearing the most naked dresses at any age, she's fabulous. She's wearing sort of like a 1920s flapper outfit. It's actually not nude, surprisingly. So maybe she got the memo because she loves being naked, that lady. That's very glitzy. What are all these people doing there? Can I ask? Just they invite very famous people. Are these people in films? Like even Bella Hadid, love her. What was

she doing there? I don't know because there are, there's also like socialites and stuff. It's a very, it is a random guest list. I'm not entirely sure. Obviously this is only as we're recording live, there's only been one day. I think then like the next few days, it's the film, whatever films are being celebrated, those people arrive. So there's going to be more outfits to come because yeah, there's not that much report as of yet, but I actually love seeing that outfits they wear. I keep forgetting it is about films. And also so many brands go as well and take people and take media and things like that as well. So it's almost like the Glastonbury for anyone who's not normie, who is a-list celebrity or involved in

film. Yes. Can I tell you a funny story? Actually, the wedding I just went to, the couple I met in 2018 at Cannes Lion Festival. So basically we had the same agent and we all got invited on this trip and everyone was really excited because we kind of thought it was going to be like tangentially related to the film festival. It's not. It's an advertising thing. And we were like stood on a stand and it's all these people from like, I don't even know like, like from Google. No, not No, not even as cool as Google. What are the old laptops you'd have at school? Ask Jeeves.

Oh, right. Dell? Yeah, like a Dell stand and just like the most random thing. And we bought, all of us who bought these really like fancy outfits. It was an expert. It was literally an expert. At one point we had like VR headsets on and we just didn't know what we were coming to. It was very tech bros, lanyards. Anyway, we had a fun time. We got it a bit wrong. There was a nice dinner and we did actually end up going out and we did end up on someone's yacht as well. So it wasn't all bad.

Oh, well. Oh, good. That's worth the trip. God. That's so funny. I can't really remember. It was so long ago. Maybe I was just quite drunk. I was about to say it was only two years ago. 2018, that's seven years ago. I know, my head goes, it's around 2020. I said it's a very long time. Oh my God. I can't even get, I've got questions I can't even get into them.

I'll ask you off there. I was thinking about this film festival, I keep forgetting it is about films. Like if I was a filmmaker, I'd be like, can you stop? I'd be like to the organizers, can you stop talking about the titty and kitty dresses and the foo foo dresses? I've made a really good film. I'd be really sulking. I'd be like, this is my party and no one's looking at me. I've forgotten it's a film festival. I'm just there for the gowns. Well, the thing is, I actually saw that someone tweeted about this basically, and I actually don't know had this person not tweeted if anyone would have realized, because it was only on the official guidelines, which

who is reading that? No one apart from this one tweeter who obviously had a vested interest. That tweet has since then gone viral with everyone reacting to it. I don't think they necessarily knew. I almost wonder if it is true that they put it in because maybe they were worried about laws being broken with nudity and then them being responsible. And maybe, I don't know, fire hazard with the long gowns. It could be that innocent and they just thought they'd pop it in the like T's and C's at the bottom of this form. And then some internet sleaze going to found it. And now it is all anyone can talk about. There's so many headlines about it. I saw a tweet that's owing about this. At Hairball 1952 said, watching Quentin Tarantino at Cannes

through a fork to look like he's in prison where he belongs. And the picture shows just that. Yeah. I mean, people also did tweet stuff like this being the festival that, you know, invites Roman Polanski and Charlie Booth. You know, you make these rules and regulations and it's like, again, policing women's bodies, but not policing the people who violate women's bodies is a very murky and well trodden path. We know it well. Yeah. If ever you want to be depressed, go and look at who has worked with Roman Polanski

since he pled guilty to unlawful sex with a 13 year old. Just go and look if you want to ruin your own day. I never thought we'd see a rebrand of vampires after the incredible noughties and 2010s Twilight Vampire Diaries True Blood era, but Sinners, the film by Ryan Kugler, the horror thriller starring Michael B. Jordan, Heidi Steinfeld, Jack O'Connell and Woonmi Masaka, have brought the villains back into the new age. It's been described as a southern vampire fantasia and another incredible addition to black horror. Michael B. Jordan plays gangster twins, the smoke stack twins specifically, who reconnect with their younger blues loving cousin Sammy, who helps them open up a juke

joint. But they're soon confronted with the absolutely menacing Jack O'Connell who plays the head vampire Remick. Soon things spiral absolutely out of control and it becomes a war between the last remaining few and the growing swarm of vampires and all they've got to do is survive for the last few hours of nightfall. There's this incredible mixture of music and horror in the film and the Guardian review by Wendy Eide says quote, If you pick apart the threads, Sinners is a little messy, but Coogler's assurance and vision holds everything together. It looks phenomenal, shot on 70mm film. The frame throbs with sultry, cum-hithered reds and gulls. The soundtrack is hot-headed and dangerous and not just the blues.

There's a feverish, feral version of the Irish folk song, Rocky Road to Dublin, that still gives me goosebumps a full week later. Before I get into the kind of commercial success and something that's made this film especially interesting on the side of the deals and Hollywood side of it, have you both seen it and what did you think? I went to see it by myself, actually inspired by our Dining Alone episode

because on bank holiday weekend, one of them, think? I went to see it by myself, actually inspired by our dining alone episode because on bank holiday weekend, one of them, I had no plans that evening on purpose. And then I was like, I can't go to cinema on my own on the bank holiday in case someone sees me and thinks I have no friends because it's a bank holiday that really exacerbated that feeling. And I went, no, you're going to go. I went, I got large pick and mix and a large popcorn. I felt very sick by the end. Also it was covered in popcorn because I kept jumping. So I went to see it. It blew me away. It was even better. I'd heard that it was really good, but my God, there's so many parts to it. It's so long. At the end, Rachele, did you have this in a cinema? Everyone got up to leave and then it kind of goes on. And this woman next to her,

shouted down the line, was like, sit down, there's more. So, I'd got bag and I was like about to walk out the cinema because it starts doing the credits. And I sat down and I was like, she's got this wrong. So I was like half sat on the seat. And then there was like another full 10 minutes of film. So anyway, I've seen it. It's incredible. I kind of want to watch it again, because I keep seeing all these takes where people are like, the more you watch it, the more you find out. And I think all of the acting was impeccable. Yeah, I loved it. So horror upon horrors, I have not seen this film. I've not wanted to see a film so badly in such a long time, maybe since Baby Girl, but this more than Baby Girl, because I just

know like a kind of supernatural vampire film. I really like Ryan Coogler. I've seen like Free of All Station. I've seen Creed, I've even seen Wakanda Forever. I don't really mess around in the superhero realm at all. I really want to see this film. Also, the biggest narrative influence I read is Salem's Lot by Stephen King. I'm a big Stephen King fan. It felt like a collision of so many of my interests. I can't believe I'm sitting here not having seen it. If either of you two go near a spoiler, I'm going to start squawking like a crow because it's so difficult. Because this was such a smash and because the internet is lawless, people immediately tweeting the ending, people immediately giving every detail. The media and the social media push on this has been absolutely bonkers. I feel like I've

been reading a lot of, I've been listening to interviews about the film. I have been reading profiles. That's such a strange thing to do when I haven't seen the film, but I'm completely sucked in by it. It feels so seismic. I'm dying to see it. It's weird because I feel like the first few weeks it came out, there was almost this narrative preempting that it was going to be a flop. And what happened was it felt like, I think I saw one news story saying it made X amount of the box office and that was a disaster. And before you knew it, within that same week, actually that turned out to just be complete waste of time. And actually, it was the most commercially successful horror film in a while. And the New York Times reported

that it's now set to make at least $330 million in worldwide ticket sales for Warner Brothers by the end of its run, making it literally one of the most successful horrors. And the other thing that I really wanted to bring in was this talking point about Kugler striking a deal where reportedly when the film turns 25 years old, this is a real unicorn of a deal by the way in Hollywood, he will own it, which means for the rest of his life, he could begin to receive royalties from streaming services, TV broadcasts of the film, anything that usually would go back to the production studio will go to him. I read that apart from Tarantino and possibly a few other people, this really

is not a thing that happens. Everyone's really cementing and commending the fact that he has changed the rules of Hollywood a bit. And speaking to Business Insider, he said the inspiration from doing this came from the two brothers played by Michael B. Jordan. And he said that was the only motivation. And he also told What the Fuck with Mark Maron, the podcast there is a huge film buff fave, that in 2015 because of Creed, he wasn't actually making very much money. told What the Fuck with Marc Maron, the podcast there is a huge film buff fave. In 2015, because of Creed, he wasn't actually making very much money. He said he was in $200,000 of debt

for film school and it was really bad. We've spoken about this before, the kind of optics of Hollywood that you imagine somebody makes a blockbuster like Black Panther, who makes something like Creed that was a huge film, would be rolling in cash, would be like bathing in dollars, like hundred dollar bills in a bathtub. But it's really interesting. I feel like when people like Ryan Coogler pull back the curtain and you realize that really is not the case. So I did watch in my mission to watch everything before I watched the film, I did watch a conversation. So it's a Democracy Now. It's about a

30-minute conversation between the American investigative journalist, Amy Goodman, who is just incredibly experienced, principled, one of the finest we have, talking to Ryan Coogler. I think they've talked before and they're kind of comrades in this. She asks him about this deal. She sort of really tees him up to discuss the deal that he got for this film and kind of essentially platforms the fact that a lot has been made of this. It's not a controversial deal or it's not a headline when offered to a successful white director. But of course, in this case, black American director, there's something to be said. She really tees him up to discuss it. He doesn't say much, but I think what he doesn't say is everything. It was a shame actually because a clip of that moment went viral on

X and a lot has been made of that. It circulated, it was misrepresented, misinterpreted as she's an older white woman asking him this question. People are going, she can't believe he got this deal. She's stitching him up. People read that very wrong, but actually horrible media literacy moment. But actually, it was a really nice moment between a great journalist and this incredible director to say or not say the most important thing, which is there's so much bias for her. There is so much this, at Foot Here, there is so much media spin about this and he will have to, or people inviting, prove that you're worth this. Whereas actually, this is an experience director has made just this absolute smash and asked for a fair deal. I've just been following that and I found that really quite interesting, that whole spin.

I wanted to ask you, Ritera, what you thought was, because I'm not actually that big of a fan of horror and especially not anymore. When I was younger, I think we were talking about this, I used to watch The Hills of Eyes on repeat. Yeah, we did on our spooky episode. Michael E. Jordan is obviously incredible. Jack O'Connell, is that his name? Jack O'Connell from Skins? Lo loved to see him. His performance was fantastic. But I can't explain it. It was the way it was shot.

It was the storyline. I just, it was, I genuinely think it's one of, maybe the best film I've seen in like years. And it is something that I do wanna watch again because it is so layered. Every performance is just outstanding. Beth, I can't believe you haven't seen this actually. I can't believe you haven't pootled off for a little 2pm screening on a Tuesday as you love to do. But what did you love about it, Ritera? I loved Michael B. Jordan in it. He was so good.

I also love when people play twins and being able to see them flex just completely different skills in their acting range. And it's so believable that he was playing two completely different people who are also deeply connected. Their relationship with each other was so deeply believable. And yeah, I completely agree. The way it looked was absolutely gorgeous. So sumptuous. Just immediately you're thrown into the atmosphere of South America and the music, the kind of, I don't know, it was so wistful, nostalgic, longing the kind of first shot of the cousin Sammy just in a car and singing and kind of like daydreaming outside, going through all of these feels. It just was amazing. The thing that I did really struggle with, I'm not going to lie to you, it was a little bit too long for me and I feel like so many films at the minute

could do with a shaving of 20 minutes in my opinion. I love you Ryan Coogler, I love this film a lot. I really enjoyed it. But that last final bonus bit was doing nothing for me and I really didn't like it. That's my honest truth, hand on heart, I'm sorry. Ooh, that's so interesting. I loved being in this universe so much

that I did not begrudge the extra time. I just wanna say something quickly about twins. I know you haven't watched you yet, Beth, but once you have watched you, let's talk about it. But there's a set of twins in you, and I, for ages, couldn't work out if it was the same woman or if she had an identical twin, so I Googled it, and it is the same woman.

And then I was like, why do they do this? And I am so stupid because I was like, why don't they just cast twins? And everyone was like, because obviously, it's really hard to find a pair of twins who have the exact same acting ability or twins that are even just both happen to be actors that are identical, blah, blah, blah. And it's so much easier and cheaper to cast one actor. Then I was like, do they get paid double the amount because they're doing two roles, they just get paid one amount? Yeah, what's the answer? But I really believe that in you, it was two twins. I only knew that Michael B. Jordan was one person because I know who he is. Lindsay Lohan, again, I remember I asked my mom, why

does the other sister not in any of her films? My mom had to be like, there is only one. So I just thought that was really interesting. But to be able to act that is incredible. Sometimes that took me out of it though, because I do think this when I know a bit of like how the sausage is made. All I was thinking was this must be so annoying for him because he's had to act it one way.

Then he's obviously got someone standing in front of him and he's talking to himself. It must be such a slog to film a film like that because you'll never really, or maybe the other person is acting the lines back, I guess, and you have to re-film it. I just, I did keep thinking about that as I was watching it. Oh, we're too aware. It's like that clip that went viral of Taylor Lautner dressed in a

gimp suit when he was trying to be the werewolf in Twilight that went absolutely astronomically viral online. We know too much about how films are made. It's a real problem. But no, I really didn't have that. I wasn't pulled out of it at all. I really felt immersed in this world. And there's a piece in the New York Times I can't wait to read and we'll link it in the show notes, which is about the symbolism of the film. And they also mentioned how the title Sinners is really interesting because outside of the literal vampires trying to ravage this town. The two brothers arguably start the film off with the first premise of what sinning is because they are this gangster duo who famously

have come from Chicago with a pile of bodies behind them. There's a deep element of religious imagery with Sammy, his dad is a pastor. This idea of him being connected to music and this idea of him being connected to music and this incredibly gifted musician is thought of as sinning because it's not human, it's seen as inviting the devil playing around with these kind of sinful acts where people dance and get leery and drink. So already he's encouraged to not lean into his gift because it's flirting too much with these devilish acts. And then you're invited to believe that like, these vampires are connected to him and brought to this place of their juke joint because Sammy's playing the guitar, he's singing, he's so otherworldly that the vampires are drawn to that. And then right at the end, there's this

plot line, which I won't go into too much with the KKK. I was about to say careful. That's a nose one. I'm getting really scared. I won't say anything, but there is something to do with the KKK being around at the time as well. So it's such an incredible theme and an incredible film title actually, because all of it is these very disparate understandings of what a sinner is. I keep seeing people saying, oh my God, when you watch it again, you find out more because it is very layered. That's the thing. There's so much happening in it as you're watching

it and there's so much symbolism and some of it is quite in your face. And then now I want to watch it again, but I don't know, people love to say that about film, you know, and they're like, if you watch this eight times, you'll get a new meaning. But I really believe them, they won't say what the new meaning is. So I guess I'll have to watch it again. Can I ask, do you find that an insult? Because actually, funnily enough, in universality, I think one of the reviews, I won't say which newspaper it's from, but it says something like, on a first read, you might not get it. But on a second read, wow, it like explodes in meaning and metaphor and imagery, blah, blah, blah. And I thought, if somebody reviewed my work like that, I don't know if I would love that,

didn't get that on a first go, but second go is the real one where it makes sense. Is that an insult or compliment? As you're saying that, I thought it was interesting because when I used to read books for what, like English at school or at university, it would often be that the first reading would just be getting through the text, getting through it, and then you would read it again. Then you'd be like, wow, famously, I remember having this with James Joyce Dubliners. If I had not been studying that school, I would have found it so boring. But because then I read it all again, I found all

this meaning in it. I wonder if that is, things were designed to be read. It's like poetry, people read poems over and over again. I think the way we make art now is less designed for that. It's like packs a punch. It's impact. It's one and done. I don't think art was always used to be like that because I guess people wouldn't have had shit tons of books. They probably would have thumbed through Capture in the Rye, maybe a bad example, like 20 times. So I know what you mean, but actually maybe it's not as insulting as it first sounds. On second listen, on second read of the review, it's actually not that bad. I think you're going to say on second listen of everything that's content. It was actually quite good. In English, there was always that argument between that one kid

in the class being like, oh, that one teacher being like, and this is what the author meant and that kid going, no, they fucking didn't. And just that endless, I'm not digging into the text, is a story, I'm going early for a cigarette. Not that that was me. Sometimes it was. No, I was, any other lesson I was itching to leave English, I was sat at the front basically talking to the teacher. Talking to the teacher, yeah. I was honestly so upset.

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