Experts of Experience - #31 The Monumental Power of Genuine Empathy as a CX Tool

Episode Date: May 22, 2024

On this episode, Chris Zlocki, Global Head of Client Experience for Collier's Occupier Services, explores the changing landscape of commercial real estate in today’s world. Chris emphasizes the importance of being a proactive and consultative partner to clients, understanding their needs, and driving meaningful change. Plus, he touches on the importance of both a top-down and bottom-up approach to creating a decisive company culture. And when it comes to customer success, Chris emphasizes tracking the voice of the customer and how he uses the Net Promoter Score. Key Takeaways:Commercial real estate providers need to be proactive and consultative partners, understanding clients' needs and driving meaningful change.Employee engagement and productivity are key considerations in designing office spaces that attract and retain top talent.The future of real estate will be shaped by AI, and organizations need to be prepared for continuous change and adaptation. A strong company culture requires both a top-down and bottom-up approach.Centralizing data is crucial for providing a holistic view of information for clients.Tracking customer success involves gathering feedback through dedicated conversations and measuring Net Promoter Score.–How can you bring all your disconnected, enterprise data into Salesforce to deliver a 360-degree view of your customer? The answer is Data Cloud. With more than 200 implementations completed globally, the leading Salesforce experts from Professional Services can help you realize value quickly with Data Cloud. To learn more, visit salesforce.com/products/data to learn more. Mission.org is a media studio producing content alongside world-class clients. Learn more at mission.org.

We use the term constructive agitator, which is go out and push your clients. If you feel or see that something could be done better, something can be done more effectively, that you can improve process, see a better return. Where you think there's value creation or value capture, go out and push them a bit to explore those ideas and help them get there. We need to know our customers and we need them to know that we know them. That's why empathy is so important. Putting yourself in your clients' shoes, understanding what they're struggling with is so critical to really co-creating and

designing an experience that we all enjoy. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Experts of Experience. I'm your host, Lauren Wood. Today, I'm thrilled to introduce Chris Zlocki, the Head of Client Experience at Collier's Occupier Services, a global leader in real estate services and investment management that boasts more than $4.5 billion in yearly revenue. In this conversation, I'm going to get into Chris's insights on driving meaningful client experiences, navigating the ever-evolving landscape of CX in real estate, and uncovering the strategies that have propelled Colliers to the forefront of the real estate industry. Chris, thanks so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to dive into this topic.

Me as well. So the real estate space and specifically the commercial real estate space has been changing rapidly in the post-COVID world. And I'd love to understand from your perspective, what are some of the key trends that you've been witnessing? I think the biggest trend really focuses on what the office is. What has it become? We use the term office as a magnet versus a mandate, which means how do you make an office or a location a place that people want to come back to? Part of the problem isn't just the work or they're comfortable at home. Part of it is now how does the office become transformational from what it was to now something that accommodates hybrid flexible work? And I think that's the greatest challenge

we're seeing on a regional basis as well as a global basis. Yep. I used to work in, I worked in multiple tech companies, had many offices that I used to go to. Initially, I was so excited to not have to go into the office

and I could just stay at home and have my own setup. And now four years into it, I really miss going into an office. And so there's this, like, I think everyone's experiencing that desire to have both, which I can only imagine is really difficult when you're thinking about renting spaces. And so how do you see companies approaching this problem and how are you supporting them in doing so? I think it all comes back to the work. You know, how do you help employees be the most engaged, productive, excited about their

job? And so oftentimes when people talk about real estate, you talk about it as square feet or the physical space, when in reality, what we're really trying to solve are problems around how they work, how they interact, how do they transfer knowledge, how do they innovate? If you understand that, then you can design the most rich and wonderful space that then makes them want to come into the office and want to use it more proactively and wants to go into the office. You know, the office is a social dynamic. The same

reason you're missing the office is you miss having a cup of coffee with somebody. You miss the informal networks that you had regarding, you know, getting work done. So many workers have either changed jobs in the great resignation or they've left their profession and we're left working in a digital environment like we're working and not knowing who to turn to, to get information, to get that knowledge. And what the office does is it provides both those formal relationships and strengthens those as well as support those informal networks that are so important to get business done. So to me, it's just such an exciting time to revisit this and figure out what is the office that's going to be successful.

And every location's different, every business unit's different, and every region's different in helping figure out how to solve those kinds of problems. Yeah. So what are some of the features you'd say that are now being asked for or needed to really create that office space that pulls employees in? It's again, a holistic problem. I think it starts with the neighborhood, right? Where you're going to have the amenities, to have outdoor space so that you can go outside, have a walk, meet other people. It used to be that you'd go to an office, you'd go to a building. Now it's about the environment

or the work experience. So then in the building, having the amenities you need to be successful, having the right air quality, having the right light, you know, feeling comfortable in the environment that you're working in. So in the past, you know, there were different classes and layers of space. And now I think people are demanding this or employees are demanding to have the same relationship they have in their home environment and want a better experience when they go into the office. So I think those are the characteristics or the things that are important if we're going to draw people back into the office and make it impactful. And tell me a little bit about how you and your team have really been staying agile as these employee needs are not only changing, but also becoming more and more important in the decision-making for

companies? How has Collier's really been supporting their clients and innovating around what it is that you're providing? I'll answer that in maybe three layers. The first, we listen, right? Active listening right now, really staying in touch and contact with what clients need and really thinking deeply about how to translate to what the end result might be and what an office space or a location or a solution might look like. The second is it goes back to this idea about being proactive, bringing ideas. We really should be bringing ideas to our clients to say, look, we understand what you're going with. We don't want to be order takers. Be able to come to you with ideas about what your campus should look like, what your

office should look like, what amenities should look like, how much space you need, because they ultimately are dealing with their internal businesses. They need to bring, well, I use the term gifts to them. They need to be saying at this time, this is an exciting time for transformation. How can we take all our knowledge and intelligence and bring you ideas about where you should be locating and what that office looks like? And then I think the third thing is we adapt, you know, taking content and information as we're walking through these processes. It's kind of like we're a ship at sail on a course and winds are going to carry us one way or the weather is going

to take us in another direction. We have to be adaptable and be able to on the fly, be able to acknowledge things that are changing and be able to help clients understand, you know, that we're there to help them think through how the space, a location, a cost structure can adapt as well. Are there any examples of client asks that maybe were really big that you are really proud of how you executed on? as a diverse employer, trying to figure out as well as hiring suppliers that they work with that bring diverse talent as well. So commercial real estate, sometimes that hasn't been on the forefront. And so what we help do is develop a diverse supplier network and a program we call Idea that really helps engage and bring other third parties into our supply chain so that they can take advantage of that. And as a result, they went from a very small spend to now being recognized as someone who's

leading in that organization. So part of that is, again, looking for opportunities to bring ideas and to drive change. The second is around a client that was just coming together and didn't have a strategic planning process or technology or analytics to make decisions. And we said, as part of our service offering, we would build that with them and we would develop it and it would become integral to the overall process. And since we've done that, we've worked on dozens of Metro plans on portfolio strategies, as well as stood up technology where they had immediate insight and analytics around things that drive change. So I think that those are two examples where, you know, as we enter these relationships, sometimes what's written on paper for scopes of work and the things you do, again, you

need to be able to look at and say, here's where we can create greater value and an opportunity to drive change. And so we're always really, every client has that opportunity or every company has that opportunity. And it also works internally for the heads of real estate and facilities to be able to look at how they're servicing their client, internal customers, and saying, are we doing this the right way? Could we be pushing the envelope in certain areas? So I think that that's core to our offering and something that we really pride ourselves on. You're really getting involved in your clients' businesses and supporting them beyond

just the physical space, from what it sounds like. You're helping them make decisions. You're being consultative and guiding them to the right decision for them. Yes. I mean, great insight and picking up on that. I mean, we really feel that there's a difference between a vendor and a partner. You know, as a vendor, you're asked to deliver things. As a partner, we use the term strong client model. We're going to walk with you arm in arm

and we're going to help figure this out together. We may not have the answer, but we're going to work with you to ensure that you're getting the best results. And I think for anyone listening, I mean, this is something any customer experience or customer facing leader can take in. Do you want to be a vendor or a partner?

And I'd love to know your opinion on what you think the pros and cons of being a partner really is? It's first deep relationships, right? Getting to know your client in a very deep way really builds trust. And in any partnership or relationship, trust is the most important part. Once you get to that point, you can really drive change because they know you're acting in their best interest and not your own or the company's. You're really trying to help them be successful. And I think that to me, getting in and knowing something so

broadly and deeply as their business really is the basis for substantive change and transformational change. We need to know our customers and we need them to know that we know them, right? That's where that trust comes from, where they're like, I see, I'm going to listen to what you're saying to me because I know that, you know, the problems that we're facing. You've taken the time to understand it. We've built that trust. Now I'm here to listen and be open to you guiding me. Where vendors, the vendor archetype, we could say, is more transactional. Right. That's why empathy is so important to this. Putting yourself in your client's seat, shoes, understanding what they're struggling with is so critical to really co-creating and designing an experience that we all enjoy. I mean, there's two sides of this equation. Yes, we're delivering service to a

client, but we also want to enjoy it as well, right? We're all, if we're good at what we do, we're passionate, we're engaged, we bring ideas. What's best to do that is to really be able to be on the same plane and to have open, honest, transparent conversations and be able to really understand when that client's hurting or they need help or be able to read the tea leaves sometimes when something may not be as explicit, right? As might be in other business instances. Yeah. So I'm curious, were you in this role when COVID began? I was. To answer that, everything had to change. It's like, I know what question you're asking.

We have changed. Because I can only imagine. Tell me a little bit about the change. It's like, I know what question you're asking. We have changed. Because I can only imagine. Tell me a little bit about the change. Everything, the way we work, how we work. And I would say it's change for the better. It's more holistic, more integrated, maybe less siloed. When you think about even a simple problem, not simple, but a problem of locating an office. Before that was you give me the requirement, I go out and find a location. Now it's what is that workplace experience? How do I attract and retain the best talent for this? Will they come to the office?

And how big should that office be? And what should that space be? That requires a number of different disciplines than maybe we took for granted or didn't need to incorporate as deeply or as regularly as in the past. So an exciting time, you know, as I've told my team, this is like the Super Bowl, Wimbledon, World Cup, all rolled up in the one. I mean, and we're still going through that, meaning this is the greatest time for transformation and change in this business that I've seen. It really is a great stage to see how real estate and facilities can be a platform for substantive business change. I'm sure that there's many, many lessons, but is there one

key lesson that comes to mind that you learned through that period? Really internalizing, listening deeply, being an active listener and getting to this point where putting the, again, the client at the center, not to be repetitive is really so important to ensuring that you're not just providing services that you think you want to provide, but giving them the things they need to transform and be successful. I think the other thing along that, the questions they're being asked are different than the ones that they were being asked previously. Before it was, can you help me consolidate this location or find me a site for a particular use? Now it's how do I develop a hybrid work strategy?

So what I learned is that we need to expand outside our comfort zones and bring different disciplines in, you know? And so part of it is this active listening, but also expand your network, go out and find partners, bring others in to help problem solve as well. I'll use an old school term, VUCA. I don't know if many of your listeners have heard it, but volatility, uncertainty, complexity, and ambiguity was a term maybe back when we were dealing with Y2K back in the day. Totally. I feel like I heard it in like a business school class.

The other thing I've learned is change is constant now. It's not that we change and we stabilize. We're constantly reevaluating and looking at different facets of what really drives business. And I think I'm thinking that this next wave of change is even going to be more significant when we think about AI and the impact it's going to have on businesses and transforming this next layer. What we learned from this recent experience is actually going to, I think, be exponentially greater with what AI

brings to the table from who actually is in the office at this point. What is an office when you think of process, transactional parts of the business that are repeatable become digital and helping you be a designer, creator, thinker, decider, I think that's the next wave. So I do think this whole question of constant change and adapting these Darwin moments, let's say adapt or die, you know, it's not the smartest or the brightest. It's the one who adapts to change the fastest. And I think we're going to be continuously challenged with this as leaders and understanding what that experience is for clients and customers. I relate to this so much. I mean, I think I, so I'm a leadership coach as well as a customer experience consultant. And so I work with people

on both the operational sides of their businesses and how they're creating a great customer experience, but also the personal side of how leaders are actually approaching and guiding their teams through everything that they're facing. And there has been so much change. And people are tired of having to consistently adapt, but it's also a muscle that we need to build because just as you said so well, adapt or die. We need to be able to pivot consistently and be comfortable with that inevitable change.

Because like you just said, we are at the very beginnings of this AI wave and it is changing faster than we can keep up with. And it will continue to do so more and more rapidly. And I think COVID was a warm up. Right. Despite being a really big, massive change that completely changed the world. But it was kind of a warm up.

And I think it's important that we see it as that so that we can prepare ourselves. Because surprise change is very different than expected change. Yeah, well said. I think it's going to be continuous. And it's going to challenge us with all its great benefits. You know, someone else's quote is it's going to be the new electricity, right? It's going to be everywhere. It's going to change everything. You know, as humans, we tend to be change resistant, right? We're back from our hunter gatherer days, the apple had a fall from the tree and you had

to catch it to eat. You weren't going to get up and move. We really need to be proactive and in harnessing this kind of technology and be able to use it to accelerate change and be able to help people understand that this isn't a bad thing. This is something that's going to make our lives better. Yes, going through it is going to be challenging, and you're going to have to invest time and resources to do it. But in the end, it'll be incredibly rewarding because it will continue to advance us as leaders, thinkers, and employees if we can harness the tools

in an effective way. How have you been guiding and preparing your team for change? Constant conversation. We do weekly meetings. We try to get together as much as possible. I would say it's more of a continuous improvement process and more organic than it is structured. Where my weekly calls have shifted from what's everybody doing to what's everybody seeing. What are the things you're seeing that influence the different disciplines, whether it's supply chain advisory, whether it's a workplace of the future or a location intelligence and strategy, what are the big things that are out there shifting? Or what are the small things that are shifting? How should it be influencing the way we're

providing services? It's really moving into a proactive mindset and bringing out the telescope to look ahead into the future of what can we see, what can we prepare for, how can we move into this next phase ready to support our customers and understand what it is that they're dealing with. I've been using this term, you know, maybe it's a little bit pivotal, but I've been sort of prompting our teams to be, we use the term constructive agitator, which is go out and push your clients. If you feel or see that something could be done better, something can be done more effectively, that you can improve process, see a better return, where you think there's value creation or value capture,

go out and push them a bit to explore those ideas and help them get there. So again, I think it's this whole thesis or the conversation we've been having around change. It's, again, be proactive and really help them think through new opportunities. And don't just rest and rely on the processes them to think about the things that can create difference. That's so wise. And then once your team is gathering those insights, how are you bringing them back into the organization? We do a lot of knowledge sharing across the organization. We believe in thought leadership and really in an open source kind of an environment,

making sure that we're taking our data and turning it into knowledge so that we're sharing information either through areas like sharing it in a podcast format, white papers, posting online, or really through other social media and making sure that it's instantaneous as much as possible so that we can get that information out. When you're using Salesforce to tackle your company's most important goals,

failure is not an option. At Salesforce, they get it. They've made their most highly skilled advisors, Salesforce CTOs, available to help you with expert guidance and implementation support at every step of your journey. Learn more about Salesforce CTOs at sfdc.co slash professional services. And what about getting it throughout the organization? I'm not sure if this is something that you experience, but I see it so often in companies where we have some silos. And I know you said that COVID helped to break down some of those silos, but I also know that naturally people within a company start to focus on different things depending on their key missions.

How do you make sure that everyone in the company is really thinking about the customer and have the customer's needs in mind? I think it starts with culture and who you hire. Are you aligned with the values and the people you're bringing in the organization? That that is first and foremost, you know, our organization is collaborative. We use that term culture of collaboration where we want to share information and you need to be an active participant in that. And I think that when you do that, it helps people want to have these conversations about things that have changed and areas where

you can create additional value. The second thing I think is to pull some common processes in place globally so that you have a platform that you can rely on so that there are common tools and people are familiar that they know where to go and get information or be able to know where to reach out and have that content available. And then I think because of the scale of our organization is rely on the boots on the ground. I mean, the fact that we've got hundreds of offices in every major region to go out and collect that data and get that local insight. If you have a question about what's happening in Singapore or London or Paris, I can type an IM at a reasonable time of the day and be able to get a response. So be able to

connect at that local level. So both a top-down approach as well as a bottom-up approach. I think it really builds for a nice cocktail of culture and what we're trying to do here and the kind of transformative work we're trying to rely on. Great. The global nature of your business is, I mean, it's massive. Like you said, you're in every major city, not only region, but you are present in all of these different places all over the world. And I'm curious to know how you centralize that data. What tools are you using to make sure that all of that information is stored in one place and that whoever needs to access it can access it? It is the question or one of the questions of the day, which is,

how do we have all this disparate data and pull it into one environment? We've invested pretty heavily in a platform that we're very proud of called Collier 360, which is a business analytics and business intelligence platform that allows us to provide a holistic view of data for a company, whether it's their people data, how many, where are they going, what are their locations, certainly the real estate information, the financial data, the operations data, the facilities information. It's a holistic platform that we provide to clients and we use ourselves and our teams to be able to manage where are people, how much are they spending, what's going on with this project, all in one space. Now, we provide this as something that's also configured and customized to the need of a

client. So it isn't one size fits all. We know that a technology company is very different than a product manufacturing company in terms of the kind of metrics, KPIs, or key performance indicators they're looking for. And so we felt that that was core and critical very early on to be able to provide that information and again, create some, some knowledge around this information, because this is the core backbone of creating change and driving strategy. I think it's essential to any business. So that's something we feel is core and critical to our businesses, to be able to provide that kind of platform, to be able to manage all this complexity of data. Yeah, I can only imagine how much you have there. And so the fact that you built your own tool

to deliver on your own specific needs and your clients' needs makes a lot of sense. It's a partnership, right? We want them to see the same data we're seeing and be able to provide that, whether it's tracking projects or looking at financial results or looking at how we're performing on transactions. You can go to one place and see, here's the

rating, here's how we performed, or here's where the opportunity is from a base strategy for that particular location. To have that all in one place is pretty powerful for organizations. So on the data side of things, but shifting gears a little bit, how do you track your customer success? What are the measurements that you use to know we've done it right for these customers? We have instituted a voice of the customer program

that really gets to beyond traditional sort of here's how we're performing on accounts, which every account has or every client has specific metrics and measures that we need to judge. Are we delivering on time, on budget, meeting quality expectations? But we really leverage our voice of the customer program to be able to gather that feedback and use that as a platform to create change on the account plan. So normally, you know, in a discussion, in a QBR or quarterly business review, annual business review, you may not get all the areas or issues out on the table. But to go and have a conversation informally or formally with

a client, what are the pain points? Where are the areas we could be focusing on doing more or less? Or what do you think success looks like in the future? To be able to collect all those thoughts and be able to integrate that back into an account plan is so powerful. And we use that and we work with our account teams to be able to integrate that data and information. And they go back to the client and they say, yeah, that's a logical plan. Let's go after it. Let's go figure out how to do it.

So that's a logical plan. Let's go after it. Let's go figure out how to do it. So that's important. And then we rely really heavily on net promoter score to understand MPS. How are we delivering services? Is this something you feel you could recommend to others of bringing callers into your organization, which is the best form of flattery and reward is when you feel like you've done a good job. And then you see you've got a nine or a 10 as someone is a promoter, they feel like they can talk. So the best form of measurement is someone else telling your story and how the kind of success you create, I think is really important. The kind of metrics I think that are really important today are the ones that move the needle. Like what innovations did you bring and implement to transform the organization? So what have ideas that are you bringing to the table? Big needle

movers around how much savings have you created? How have you helped me improve our employee engagement scores? How have you improved our processes? Again, I'm not talking much about real estate. I'm talking more about the business, right? And that's really, I think, what's so impactful about thinking about this as an advisory practice, again, getting away from the vendor and really sort of partnering with people to be able to create change. That's great. Two things I want to double click on. You mentioned having these dedicated conversations to understand opportunities and pain points. Who's having those conversations? It's the greatest part of my job. I'm leading that. Our account directors are doing that. But it is both the most fun and the most rewarding type of conversation to be able to hear this and internalize it and then be able to create a plan and give that back with what we do in order to get that done. But that's something that I'm really passionate about.

And our team's passionate about providing those kind of interviews. So it's someone other than the main point of contact. It's almost like an ombudsman in a way. Someone that you could feel comfortable telling a story. And we've had conversations and my team's had conversations where things hadn't come out in a meeting that could, should be changed that the client contact felt more comfortable just speaking in private about the issue, not substantive or big issues, but things that needed attention that we, we may have, we, we needed to focus on and fix.

And so when that happens, it's, it just shows again, another layer of value we can provide. Yep. I, so I do this for my consulting clients and I think it's really important to have someone who is not the main point of contact that they're seeing every day that they've developed a relationship with that maybe they don't want to hurt their feelings or, you know, say something that is not going to come across well. People don't want to hurt other people. And so sometimes they hold back their honesty and it's important to give them that space. And also the space of a dedicated conversation on how they have been experiencing your product or service does wonders. those things that aren't being said or that the client may not have even realized is happening until you start to dig in and ask those poignant questions to help them see what is really

happening for them and then share that with you. Absolutely. And it connects all the sort of themes or dots we were talking about, right? Empathy, putting the client at the center, active listening, being proactive, being able to understand, again, what they're feeling, right? I mean, this has also been a tough time for a lot of people. Burnout is real.

Challenges with productivity and keeping people engaged. And we've gone through a very challenging three or four years and so have your counterparts. So understanding where their pain points are and really using that as a platform for change is so important. And all this is such an integrated and sort of interconnected conversation that those conversations help tie a lot of these themes together. And I'll just say to anyone listening, if you've been thinking about doing customer interviews or having someone do customer interviews for you, truly it is such an unlock for your business. And I just could not, I cannot recommend it enough. It's I, every time I do it for clients, I walk away,

we walk away with new insights, new ideas, new ways to innovate and that empathy for the customer. Cause then we can bring that back into the organization and help others who may not have the face-to-face contact with customers on a day-to-day basis, understand what are those customers actually feeling. I've also found AI to be incredibly helpful in these conversations in being able to record soundbites. So I can just share, hey, product team, listen to what the customers are saying about this part of the business. You can actually hear it and feel it. And it truly goes so far. It goes such a long way. And AI is so powerful in this space too. Even the immediate use right now, being able to collect 20, 30, 40 focus groups or information for larger projects,

it can synthesize very quickly and help you get to, here are the real points that were drawn out across all this myriad of different conversations. How has your customer experience focus changed your business strategy? I think it's evolved in parallel with one another being that as we started on this journey of using customer experience and using voice of the customer and gaining client feedback, we realized the power in that and how important it was to leverage the kind of solutions we were creating for clients and the kind of teams we were putting in front of them.

So it's become front and center. You know, we use this process that when we start with a client, we really start at the solution. You know, what is it that we want to provide? Here's a proposal. What are they asking us? And then we try to co-create what that solution looks like, blueprint it out. What would your ideal state be? Where are you now? And that strategy is getting you from here

to there. So then we focus on getting you from where you are to that ideal state and bringing our ideas, tools, methods. And I think that as we've been growing through leveraging this process, that's been something that's really worked well at illustrating to a client that, wow, you really listened and you can help us. I could see ourselves partnering with you. Those are the kind of comments we get back. Like we could see ourselves working with you. Those are the kind of comments we get back. Like we could see ourselves working with you. Like you understand where we're at. You listened. Doing that work up front and then the account becomes an extension of the solution. So you don't have a sales team and then an account team. It's almost kind of seamless with different people involved, certainly along the journey, but being able to chart out what the roadmap is,

what the journey is, and then what the destination and leveraging this kind of integrated thinking, constantly gaining feedback and using that as a way to form the solution. It's just a lot of fun and it's really a great way to create change. It's rewarding when you see the impact it has on the positive impact that it has on others. It really warms our hearts. Yeah. And I guess coming from management consulting as a background, it's just been intuitive and innate and being involved in other sales processes in the past, I'd be asking, why aren't we asking these questions? You know, why aren't we digging into this? The client, you know, we want to be able to show what value we can create, but it has

to be tied and nested to what they're trying to achieve. And I think that the whole essence of client experience is really getting in and understanding their needs so deeply that you can create an innovative custom solution for them so they feel and appreciate and understand that you're delivering something that really fits what they need, not what everybody needs. And oh, by the way, others may benefit from what you're helping create, but it's really tailored and focused to what they're trying to achieve. I have one burning question that I wanted to come back to about hybrid work. Because in my last position, my last full-time position, I was on the leadership team of a company that was

national across the US. And we were really struggling to figure out what the right balance was and how to, you know, financially, how could we afford to have an office that could fit everyone when not everyone would ever be there? And I'm curious to know how you've been guiding clients through that. I know we're quite a ways out of COVID now, but I think companies are still dealing with this question. Every day. And so I'd love to know, how are you helping clients? What are some of the solutions that you're seeing? I think it gets back to a piece of the conversation we had previously. Oftentimes, companies and others try to solve the hybrid question through space when really it's a leadership and work problem. We have this much space. People should be back in the office. Let's put it, let's make sure they're there three days a week, but they go into the office and then they may be on Zoom calls all day and have to go home or their leaders don't come in. What we really try to focus on is what are the work norms and how

should people be working to be the most productive, share knowledge, be the most innovative? What are the things that they need and where should they be doing that work most effectively? So if being at home, you're most effective at doing task ABC, then that should be done at home. But if we need to meet to work on product development or marketing plan or collaborate on a new idea, then that work, we need to find space and time to do that. I call this the hard work, right? Going through with your team and designing how you want to work and what's the most effective for you as an individual and us as a collective is the most impactful and rewarding. We have a tool we call Campus Reimagined because it's the way we're seeing it. It's really like, how do we rethink this? You ask, what's changed? Everything's changed. So we look at all these stimuli around how do you attract and retain the best talent? Are you in the right location? Do you have the right space? How much space do you need? We go out and do those deep interviews with the customers and the clients to

get that information to see, you know, this is how they're working now, but they probably could be working better this way. And for one particular client, we took them from a million square foot outdated campus and now have relocated them into something that's a third of the size that employees are excited to go to and manages the future of their work and aligns with their culture. How exciting is that, right? So when you look at that degree of change, that it isn't just cost savings, which a lot of people are trying to figure out right now because of the cost of real estate and figuring out what's the right balance. But you can also give them through this kind of a process,

improve on what their culture is by getting them in the right place to do the right work and giving them a really cool, evocative, magnetized space somewhere they want to go to work and they want to have coffee and they want to learn something. But I really like what you say about really rethinking the way that you're working. It's not just what's the space that we need and okay, we have the space so everyone needs to go to it. And having been an employee of that conversation, you know, it's like, well, that's not really helping us get to our goals. Now you're just forcing us to do something because you're paying for it. When really it should be, how do we utilize the

combination of space versus focus time at home and create a working rhythm that really brings us together and have the space that allows for the innovation and collaboration and connection that we know we need. So I think it's just such an important point. Let's focus on what our real goals here are, not using costs or making the most out of a cost that we have. And I think it's also going back to some of our other parts of our conversation. A key area is when is the last time you've leveled up with your business on what are their goals? What are we measuring that's important? What do we want to achieve? Here's where we are in our plan. Things have been so rapid and constant.

Have we taken the time to re-level set and get that alignment in place? And that is just so important is to look at the things that are important to that business and figure out, are we as impactful as we can be to help support what they're trying to achieve? Yeah. Great wisdom. Well, I have two last questions for you, Chris. The first is, and we ask this to every guest that we have on the show, I'd love to hear about a recent experience that you had with a brand that left you impressed. Tell us about your experience. I'm going to draw on something that's maybe created a lasting memory, not a recent memory. But this past weekend was the Masters golf tournament.

For golfers, this is like one of the four key moments of the year. So a dozen years ago, I was lucky enough to be able to attend the final round on Sunday, which is, you know, the Holy Grail for golfers. It's one of those places like the British Open. And I bring this up because I still feel like I attended it yesterday. It's just has such a lasting memory. It's such a holistic experience between having an idyllic setting in this beautiful Georgia rolling hillside. It looks like the blend of Central Park with a forest and playing a sport in it. Impeccable service, right? Along with the height of sportsmanship. It was awe-inspiring to really be there where everything was so special and every detail was thought out because it was there for you as a fan to make sure you're there to see the golf.

There were no impediments. So whether you were waiting in line to get a beer or a pimento sandwich, which is one of the key characteristics, and you're in a line of 100, you were through that line in three minutes. So they could get you back to viewing this very special event. Everything was meant for you viewing and you interacting with this experience. And the attendees and volunteers knew that. And they wanted to make you feel so special and be at the center that they would thank you for coming or ask you, do you need any help? Is there somewhere you need to go? And so it just felt so impactful to me at that scale and on the world stage to have that level of individual feeling, you know, that it made me feel that, yes, I was part of this grand experience, but I also felt like it was my experience and they made it very special for me.

So I don't know if that meets your criteria, but it's something that I- It does completely. It's something that I really sort of fall back on as, wow, this is really exceptional, you know, in terms of entering at 7.30 in the morning and leaving at six at night, I couldn't have changed anything. Yeah. Oh, I love that. And I'm really glad you bring up an event experience. There is no other situation where you get to really breathe and feel a brand or organization, like when you're literally being held by them. And like you said, you're waiting in line with a hundred people for a beverage and a bite to eat. And sometimes you

can feel trapped in that. Like I'm here to experience the show, but I'm in this line and I guess I paid to be in this line, you know, and that's really disappointing. And I think we have heightened sensibility about that because we live and breathe client experience. Like, how can this be better? And I guess it just felt good that, wow, they thought of these details and it may, you know, it's all built for me to have the best experience. And at scale, at massive scale, tens of thousands of people. It's like, this is a really

well-crafted, thought out, rehearsed, done previously example that I really, I just, I always fall back on. And when I was watching it again, it was like, I feel like I was there. Yeah. Oh, I love that. And my last question for you is what is one piece of advice that every customer experience leader should hear? Don't be afraid to push your clients and make them in a positive way. You're here to help them understand how they can gain the most value out of the things that they're doing. And they will appreciate you having their best interests in mind. And so really get out there and push the envelope with them. That whole constructive agitator comment, I think, is something don't wait for things to happen. Get out and be proactive

and push clients, customers to think about their experience or their services or the products that they're getting and figure out how they can get the most out of them. I'm taking constructive agitator. It's such a great statement. So thank you so much for all of your knowledge and wisdom, Chris. It's been such a wonderful conversation. And thank you so much for coming on the show.

Well, thank you so much. This has been a wonderful part of my day, week, month, and year. You are a business leader with vision. You've seen the future as an AI enterprise thriving with Salesforce AI and data. And it is bright. Getting there? It's a little fuzzier. Don't worry. Salesforce CTOs are here to work side by side with your team and turn your AI and data vision into a reality. We're talking expert guidance and implementation support from the best of the best. To learn more,

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