EXPLORE WITH US - 13 Year Olds Murder Grandma For $155: The Case of Anthony Barbeau and Nathan Paape

Episode Date: April 26, 2023

13 year olds murder grandma for $155...The following podcast episode is not legal advice. Do not rely on the information in this presentation without speaking to a licensed attorney.No one discussed in these videos has been formally diagnosed by EWU and our psychological analysis is based on the general behaviors and traits of the people discussed.

At first, I wasn't wanting to. We attacked her. I didn't really want to do it as much. I didn't want to do it. Her whole top of her was gone. Her whole what was gone? Her whole top of her head. I didn't.

Where did you hear? It was that first swing. I think the head. But I didn't feel good. We were freaking out. This is 13-year-old Antonio Barbot and his friend, 13-year-old Nathan Pop. The pair are enjoying a good meal

in some conversation at a local pizzeria. This footage seems innocent enough. However, once it's revealed exactly how they ended up there, your entire perception of this video will change. On Tuesday, September 18, 2012, 78-year-old Barbara Olson didn't show up at her daughter Judy Offutt's house as she normally did mostly every morning. When Barbara failed to appear again on Wednesday morning, Judy became concerned for her elderly mother. Judy placed several several phone calls to Barbara in the following hours, but they all went unanswered. By the afternoon, she'd still receive no word from her mom. Barbara lived just a few miles away from her daughter in the town of Sheboygan Falls, Wisconsin. So Judy made her way to her mom's house later that very same afternoon.

She lifted the garage door so that she could attempt to go into the home through the garage entrance. Her mother's car was missing from inside, but what she did find made her run to a neighbor to call the police. Please send an ambulance in the police. My mother is laying in the garage and there's a lot of blood and there's a blanket over her head. There's a lot of blood. How did the towel? How did the blanket get over

her? I have no idea. And how old is your mother? She is 78. And is she breathing? I don't know. I can't look. The blanket is over her head and I can't look. Okay. Can we hear with you? I hope you're on the neighbor.

Okay, can the neighbor check if she's breathing? You don't have to go and look. You don't have to call. You can just go and check if she's breathing. Okay. I think you would like it. Is she turning somebody? I'm working on it.

I need to know if she's breathing. Barbara was lying motionless inside her garage, a blanket covering her face with no shoes on her feet. Her arms and hands appeared badly beaten. A trail of blood stretched from her body back into the house through the doorway that connected the garage to the interior of the home. Had the blanket been removed? from Barbara's head, the sight would have been enough to scar Judy for the rest of her life.

Underneath the cloth was a black plastic bag that had been placed over Barbara's head and secured around her neck with a black belt. Had the bag been removed, Judy would have seen that her mother's head was so severely crushed that parts of her face were either missing or indistinguishable. The top portion of her head was all but gone. The hunt for Barbara's killer began. Barbara Olson was a volunteer driver for elderly citizens in Sheboygan Falls, an avid gardener and described by her family as generally peaceful and positive. She simply wasn't the kind of person who would have had any enemies, which left detectives without any real leads. However, conversations with Barbara's family as well as a few odd pieces of surveillance footage, secured from multiple establishments around the area, landed detectives in front of two 13-year-olds. Barbara's great-grandson Antonio Barbou,

nicknamed Tino, and his friend Nathan or Nate Pop. Investigators were hoping that these two middle schoolers could help them get to the bottom of who mercilessly executed Barbara Olson, and why? The following interrogation footage has never been seen before. The first thing detectives do is remove Antonio's handcuffs, likely in order to make him more comfortable and build rapport with him before the intent.

interrogation begins. Prior to him entering the room, detectives have intentionally pulled Antonio's chair away from the table. This way, they have a clear view of his whole body, which will allow them to more effectively read his body language. Yeah, you should. Okay. You can be fine, correct? All right. First of all, can I get your name? It's Antonio Barbo. Is that he pronounced it? Antonio Barbo. Okay. And how old are you? 13. All right. So what grade are you? in school? I'm in 8th. And you can understand everything that I'm saying so far, correct?

Do you know what day it is of the week? I think Thursday. Okay. Detectives are asking some basic questions to get him talking and establish a behavioral baseline. We've been involved in a serious investigation, okay? There's a lot of different people that have been talked to already about this serious investigation and you're one of them that we wanted to talk to hoping that you can clarify some things okay all right because you're sitting in here i do have to read your rights okay

all right Antonio appears relatively calm and unemotional for someone his age finding themselves in this position this is likely not his first run-in with law enforcement do you understand each of these rights okay realizing that you have these rights are you now willing to answer questions or make a statement, basically listen to me and answer the questions so that we can hopefully clarify some things. Okay. Okay. Antonio might understand the literal meaning of his Miranda rights, but he's likely too young to understand the repercussions of speaking without an attorney being present. If a minor understands their Miranda rights, they have the ability to waive them. However, a court will review the situation more carefully than a waiver by an

adult, before admitting an incriminating response into evidence. The prosecution must know that the minor understood the situation and their rights, and the waiver was voluntary, knowing, and intelligent. The court will take into account the age and intelligence of the minor and any coercive or deceptive tactics by law enforcement, as well as the emotional state of the minor at the time. If a parent or guardian was not in the room, a minor may not have understood their rights or may have felt more pressure to cooperate with law enforcement. There was a serious incident involving your great-grandmother, I believe. Do you know who that would be?

On her hand is. My side? Yeah, I think it is. Then grandma Parm. Okay. What's her... Is it grandma or great-grandma? I just say grandma.

But is she a grandma or is she my great-grandma? Okay. Do you know anything at all about what may have happened to her? Have you heard? anything? Do you know anything at all? No, what happened? Okay. Well, like I said, it's a serious incident. She's not doing that well, and I'll get more to it later as far as possibly as far as the other people that we've talked to what came up. So, okay. This is a strategically placed statement by the detectives. It lets Antonio in on the fact that detectives have spoken with other people before speaking

to him. This leaves him to wonder what they already know. The detectives will likely reveal what information they've gathered piece by piece as the interrogation program. in order to see if Antonio's story changes. Right. So you don't know anything about, when's the last time you saw your great grandma? It usually indicates that someone is experiencing a negative emotion when their lips seem to disappear, such as Antonio's are here. Disappearing lips doesn't mean someone is being deceptive.

It just suggests that they're likely feeling anxious or upset. Telling a lie can be anxiety-provoking for many people, as they don't know whether they will be believed or not. Since we already know that Antonio is lying about when he last saw his great-grandmother, we can presume that his disappearing lips are due to stress from being deceptive. I don't know. I've been in trouble the past, like, a month or two. I'm thinking at least a month ago. So the last time you saw it was at least a month ago?

Yeah. And do you remember where that was that you saw it? No. In response to this question, Antonio's hand flies up to his face. Pulling or pushing on one's face is known as facial distortion. It's an adapter behavior to release nervous energy and self-soothe. Given that Antonio is covering one of his eyes, it could also be a form of eye blocking,

which is a behavior that people may do when they are presented with something they perceive as negative. It's a way to put distance between themselves and whatever they're hearing or seeing. When an interrogation first begins, detectives will start with basic questions so they can get a feel for how the suspect responds to low-pressure questions. They will then compare that behavior

to how the suspect acts with higher pressure questions, like about the crime that has occurred. Antonio's baseline behavior involved very little movements, and he appeared relatively relaxed. However, as soon as questions about his great-grandma started, He began showing signs of stress. The detectives will likely interpret this as a deviation from his baseline behavior and therefore an indication of possible deception.

When's the last time where you were at her house, Grandma, or great-grandma, Barber Olson? Probably the last time I went over there to work for her. It should probably be about two months ago. I remember I went over there. I put some leaves. Here, when asked again about his last interaction with his great-grandmother, we see more touching of the face and neck and very subtle movement of the leg. These are physical signs of increased anxiety and potential red flags of deception. These movements indicate the person is likely feeling stressed, which could be because they're lying.

They share all these leaves in the garage, like a lot. Rather than the short answers he's given so far, Antonio delves into a detailed explanation. about the yard work he'd previously done for his great grandma, likely because it's a true story. These kinds of behavioral deviations are exactly what detectives are looking for. And how long was that, did you say? I'm going to guess about two months. And that was it your great grandma's house?

Yeah. So do you know where that is? Do you know the address by any chance or not? No, I don't know the address. Do you know what street is on or anything? All the only thing I know is that in Shoboian Falls, and then like I know the area that it's in, but I don't know the address to it. Okay.

And you were talking about getting in trouble and stuff. What are you here for? I'm here for... Antonio seems to give this particular question quite a bit of consideration before answering. He even repeats the question first, which is a common tactic used to stall for time. Well, I'm here because I ran from social care when I had to go. with a social care. Right.

Because I remember, I always, like, my mom said me, like, if I was, like, really good and all that, I'd get out sooner and all that type of stuff. And then I was there for, like, a week and a half. And, like, half a week before that, I was talking to my social worker,

or she said only a few days. So then after that other half a week, I asked my mom, do you know what I'm getting out, like, in a few days or something. And she's, like, your social worker said that it's me at least another two weeks. So I didn't like that. So I left.

Okay. The fact that Antonio ran from social care in the first place, essentially because he didn't like being there, gives detectives a good idea of the kind of kid he really is, defiant and insubordinate, with a complete disregard for authority. Do you know what you were doing Monday? Where you were at, where you were staying, were you at home,

or where were you at on Monday during the day? Well, I was sure I was sleeping, so, like, at least two, and then I started walking around. Where did you, so Sunday night you slept? Antonio begins furiously scratching his leg, a new stress adapter. Skin scratching is closely associated with stress. When a person is feeling pressured, the body sends signals to immune cells to release chemicals like histamine, which can trigger inflammation and cause itching.

Most adults are aware that a lot of fidgeting can make themselves appear anxious and as such might try to stifle those behaviors in order to appear more innocent. A young teen, on the other hand, may lack insight into their own behavior and may not realize that detectives are analyzing their every move. Aware of his discomfort, detectives press forward with questioning about what exactly he did over the weekend. Where were you sleeping out, 209? I was, let's see.

I remember where I wasn't home. It's peculiar that Antonio's having a hard time recalling this information, considering that Sunday would have only been four days prior. Rather than trying to remember, it's more likely that he's trying to think of a suitable answer to give detectives. Quite sure I stayed at a friend's house that night. Red flags go up as Antonio resorts back to giving undescriptive and vague answers, an indicator that he might be nervous about this particular line of quays.

or withholding information. Note also the pitch of his voice as he answers. Quite sure I stayed at a friend's house that night. This is called upward or rising inflection when someone's statement ends on a higher pitch than it started. This often happens when someone is asking a question, or if they aren't sure about what they're saying. It's a red flag that Antonio's inflection rises

when he's making this statement, because most people would be able to confidently answer whether or not they stayed at a friend's house a few nights ago. As he finishes this statement, he looks directly at the detective, possibly to see if the detective seems to believe what he said. Well, today's Thursday it wasn't that long ago, right? So do you know which friend it was that you stayed at Sunday night? I'm going to say probably Nathan.

And what's his last name? It's pop. We have to pause here. What Antonio doesn't know is the detectives have already spoken to his friend Nathan at length about what happened on Monday afternoon. In fact, detectives had paid Nathan a visit at his home only the day before to discuss the ongoing investigation. It turns out that Nathan told a completely different version of what happened on the night of Monday, September 17th. Now, detectives are left to determine which of the two is lying.

The following interrogation takes place on Wednesday, September 19th, just hours after Barbara was found. Right, Nate. we're here to talk with you and we want to talk to you because we understand that you are friends or somehow associated with a person by the name of Antonio Barbo Yeah.

Tino. I understand he goes by the name Tino. Yeah. Okay. So you're friends with Tino? Yeah. Okay. When's the last time you think you saw Tino?

Yesterday. Yesterday? And where was that at? Just down on the corner of this block. Did you expect to see him when you were leaving your house? No. Did you know that, do you know, was a runaway? Yeah.

Do you know how long he had been a runaway for? Yeah, since last week, Friday. And did he run away from home? Or does he live at his house? No, he was in shelter care. In shelter care? Yeah. Okay.

And he had to stay for another two weeks, and he decided just to leave. and that was like right after school he started to run because his mom picks him up so he just decided to go the other side of the building okay Nate so in that time frame between Friday when he ran away after school until yesterday did you see him in that time frame between that Friday yeah when did you see him Sunday and Saturday and yesterday so you saw him every day since he ran away yeah pretty much There's a second of hesitation before Nathan reveals that he'd been with Antonio on Monday, the day of the murder. He was likely debating whether to lie or be honest about seeing Antonio that day. Not only is he being stared down by police, but he likely knows that Antonio is in custody already.

What he doesn't know is whether he's spoken to the police already or what all he might have told them. Until one of my neighbors who was actually related to me noticed it, and then one of my neighbors. who was actually related to me, noticed it. And then, like, huh? Notice what? He noticed that I was, like, staying at his house. Oh. When there was a warrant out from my restaurant, all that.

And when was that again? That would be the day that, when was that? The day that I got picked back up would be two days ago. Both boys tell the same story that Antonio stayed at Nathan's at night on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, and that they spent their days just walking around. Oh, no, Monday. I remember Nathan had to go to school. So I was sitting in the house all day.

Yeah, I was watching TV most of the day. You can check the records he was at school and all that. I remember I was sitting there watching TV most of the day until he got home. Rubbing the front of the neck is a common soothing technique as it stimulates the vagus nerves and sends signals to your brain to slow. down your heart rate. People do this subconsciously when they're feeling insecure or threatened. In addition to the excessive neck rubbing, Antonio tells detectives they can check the school's records to prove that Nathan was at school on the day of the murder. This is an example of a qualifying

statement or an add-on that is meant to increase the credibility of a claim. However, qualifying statements are ironically a common indicator of dishonesty. I'm quite sure we just walked around a little bit, came back, watched TV because it was already late by then. And this is Monday, what, afternoon or evening? Yeah, like around after school. Did you stay overnight again Monday night then? Yeah, Monday night I stayed, and then Tuesday, I think he decided not to go to school, but I didn't know that until I woke up, and then we got up, so I was walking around.

it. Antonio is recalling a lot of detail about his time at Nathan's house when just a few minutes ago he appeared to be struggling to remember where he was on Sunday night. This type of a mission can be considered an example of memory of extremes, which describes when a suspect remembers details of less pertinent events, but will then claim to be unable to recall details of an event that occurred, say, only four days ago. And then that's when Ethan came over. He was like, like, hey, he was like, it. I haven't seen you for a while, that type of stuff. And then he was kind of, like, next to me a little behind me, so I didn't see it. And then he just, like, grabbed me, and then he just yells, I got him. I remember then they called my mom. She came and picked me up. She talked with my, I think it's attorney. Then she talked with him, and he said just to stay at my house for the night.

And then in the morning, just to come over there, and then we have our, like, session or whatever it was, like what we're talking about the case. Okay. So we went to my house, stayed there for the night. That was Tuesday? Yeah, and then yesterday morning at, I think, like, 9.30, we went there, and then we talked with him about my case, and then he was checking to see if there was once from my arrest, which there was.

So then he was talking with my social worker. And then I came here. And they said today at 11.15, I have my hearing deciding where I go. Who else does Teno hang out with? Um, he used to hang out with Nick, but they're not friends anymore. Do you know why they don't hang out anymore? He broke into his house before. Who broke into whose house before?

No. Broke into Nick. Antonio's pattern of shamelessly violating the rights of others is another sign of possible conduct disorder. It's usually diagnosed during childhood and can be a precursor for antisocial personality disorder as an adult. Kids with conduct disorder consistently display behavior such as aggression towards people and animals, destruction of property, deceitfulness, or theft, and the frequent violation of rules. Though he checks off multiple boxes, to our knowledge, Antonio has not been diagnosed with conduct disorder. What do you know about that, Nate?

I learned to have money, and I don't remember the time. How long haven't they been, friends? A couple weeks now. Did this happen right after he broke into the house? It happened a while ago, but I think they just found out, like two weeks ago. Do you know how Nick found out? They set up cameras. So he broke into their house more than once?

Yeah. Do you know how many times that... Four? Four times that Tino broke into Nick's house? Yeah. How do you know that? How's that? Nathan is very evasive about his involvement in breaking into Nick's house.

Up until this point, he talked about the break-ins as if Antonio was acting alone. He only confessed to being there when he was directly questioned about the information he knew. He seems to be trying to deflect all the responsibility onto Antonio when he was also. present and very likely complicit in the crime. You caught on camera too then, Nate? Yeah. Being entangled in this many legal issues at such a young age is an indication that these behaviors likely would have continued

and developed into a criminal career without the proper intervention. The greatest thing of note here is that Nathan has engaged in criminal behavior with Antonio multiple times before. They've begun to establish a pattern of behavior that the two of them have when they're together. The combination of their personalities might have made them capable of doing things together that they might not have done alone. After almost an hour of being interviewed, it's suspicious that Nathan hasn't inquired as to why the detectives are there. Even more odd is the fact that Nathan's mother is present, yet hasn't spoken up in any way to protect her son, request an attorney, or ask

any questions. This is a possible indicator that Nathan and his mom are used to dealing with law enforcement in relation to his past conduct. So you guys got caught on camera a couple weeks ago. Yeah. Did Nick or Nick's family call the police? Yeah. I have some reason

to watch he was on she'll have to do. Since he ran away on Friday, you talked about when you saw him and that. And, I mean, aside from the time that he stayed overnight at your house on Saturday and left on Sunday, it seems like it's pretty limited. She guys didn't have an opportunity to go out and get into any trouble, did you?

No. Okay. You guys didn't do anything against the law? No. Together since Friday? No. Did he tell you that he did anything against the law? No.

The detective is hoping that Nathan will take the bait and at least admit to Antonio having done something illegal, but he continues to deny. At this point, detectives have dedicated about an hour to asking ancillary questions. Once she begins digging deeper into the crime in question, there's a good possibility that either Nathan won't be as generous with information or that he or his mother might request a lawyer. With those possibilities in mind, the detective is likely making sure that she extracts all the information she can get out of him before the real questioning begins.

And Nathan's mom, when was she around? Does she work? She does work, but it sometimes varies. She does a lot of overtime. Otherwise, I think she works Monday to Friday to like three, I think. Antonio seems to know a considerable amount about Nathan's mom's work schedule. He even notes her occasional overtime. This knowledge has probably helped him and his friend Nathan sneak around in the past.

Would there be any reason at all that some of these people that we've talked to would have said that you would have not necessarily been at Nathan's on Monday. day afternoon? No, because no one knew where I was. That's why I was missing. Okay. Were you, were you on any vehicles at all at any time? Do you have any other friends that have cars, vehicles of any kind that you were with? Uh, Nate, I remember Nate's mom has a car, and he took the black, uh, the car and I was in it once, and we went one time around the black. Antonio may be trying to appear open and honest by confessing to the relatively insignificant crime of underage driving.

In reality, he's only emphasizing his disregard for rules and the safety of others. His ability to get away with reckless activities of this caliber is evidence of an apparent lack of parental supervision. Antonio is being raised by a single mother, which makes it nearly impossible to have eyes on him every hour of the day. If a single parent doesn't have a strong support system with which to raise a child, there is a significantly higher risk of that child developing behavioral issues of some sort. The time his mom spends at work or taking care of other matters explains these wide windows of opportunity that Antonio has to engage in these illegal and dangerous activities. You make one?

Yeah. What kind of a car is that? It's pretty crappy red car. what it's called. I assume it's not a new car, it's an older one? Yeah, it's an older car. When was that that Nathan drove around and you were in? I think Sunday.

And Nathan was driving it? Where did you go then? Just around the block once. Would there be any reason at all that when we've talked with people, and like I said, we've talked to a bunch of people and we're still talking to people, that anyone would say that you would have been at your grandma's? rate dramas, I'm sorry?

No, I had no reason, too. But detective asks Antonio what's known as a bait question to see how he'll respond or if he'll at least admit to being close to the crime scene. It's interesting that his answer emphasizes the idea that he had no business in that area rather than a simple no. I mean, she would, like, people would have known I was there.

I wouldn't have just randomly been there. So you're straight out saying, and you'd said before, that the last time you saw her at all was at least a month ago. Yeah. So you would straight out be saying that if anybody said that they specifically saw you at your great grandma Barb Olson's house, anytime within the past two, three weeks or something, that they're lying. Yeah.

The suspect clearly seems unconfident in his answer here. Innocent individuals are usually definite and forceful in their answers, especially if they're being accused of something. On the other hand, individuals who aren't completely guilt-free will give characteristically vague and weak answers that display their uncertainty. Do you know if any of the people that live by your great-grandma know you from seeing you there or anything? No, I don't think so. I don't know any of them. Would there be any reason that somebody would say that they saw someone about your size height with that type of a haircut at your great-grandma's house within the past week? in the past. It's unclear whether anyone truly told police

that they saw someone who looked like Antonio around Barbara Olson's house. Police will often reference evidence that they don't actually possess in order to get a suspect to confess. This maneuver is both legal and commonly used in the interrogation of suspected criminals.

Okay, so you're straight out saying that you weren't there and they must be mistaken or lying or something? Yeah. Do you have any enemies that for any reason at all would lie well something like that, especially if there was a serious incident involving your great grandma, that they would want to point the police

to you, basically? Not really, for sure not in falls, because I barely go there. And then there's a boy, and I really don't have that many enemies. I tend to get along with most people pretty easily. Do you have a job or anything, that you can make money, or do you get paying allowance or anything like that? We were talking about allowance, but then, like, I said, getting in trouble,

and then we never, like, finished it, like, finished talking about it. The detective suspects that there might be a financial motivation behind what happened to Antonio's great-grandmother. So, if you need something, if you need to close, if you want some soda, if you want something like that, does your mom give you the money, or how does that work, or you just don't get it or what? Well, like, if it's not that much, my mom will usually get it, but otherwise I really don't get stuff.

Antonio's answer indicates that he comes from a low-income household. Oftentimes, young people who commit theft and similar crimes do so, largely because of deprivation. This is concerning when combined with the fact that Antonio has demonstrated that he has no problem breaking the law in order to get his way. If I were to tell you that your great gran of our boulson was killed, Would that surprise you? This could be the freeze response.

When someone encounters a threat, they may stop all movements so they don't draw unnecessary attention to themselves. Most innocent individuals would express shock, surprise, or sadness at hearing that a family member was killed. But Antonio appears to be frozen and shows no visible reaction. Someone who's guilty may feel panicked when they find out the victim has been found because they're worried about getting caught. Momentarily freezing is one way the body handles stress until the brain can kick in and decide what the best course of action is. Would you have any idea at all how that could have happened? No. No idea at all.

No. I think you're not real close to her as far as hearing that news and just... I mean, as I said, I never like talked her that often. As I said is a referral statement and may be used by suspects to make their stories sound more credible. Referral statements build on the idea of repetition. The more you hear something, the more believable it may seem. Antonio needs to find a way to explain why he doesn't appear upset about his grandma. He may think that if he can convince the detective that he wasn't close to her,

this will explain his lack of emotion. It's important in this moment to remember that Antonio isn't the conventional suspect. he's only a teenager. Thus, the state of development that his brain is in plays a big part in his actions and reactions. Teenagers can be very self-centered, and this can be due in part to the fact that the prefrontal cortex, the rational part of the brain, doesn't fully develop until one is in their mid-20s. The prefrontal cortex is responsible for logical thinking and the comprehension of how one's decisions affect other people. Therefore, it's entirely possible that, though it's a tragic event, Antonio doesn't feel that his great-grandmother's death affects his everyday life

and doesn't yet have the cognitive ability to clearly see how it will affect other people, which explains his emotional detachment from the situation. Though this can't possibly explain his reaction or lack thereof in its entirety, it's worth noting. I did it a little bit, but not that much. Do you use drugs at all? Any kind of drugs? have drugs, yeah. Okay.

When's the last time you used any kind of a drug? At least a week ago. The detective is clearing the possibility that Antonio might have been on drugs at the time of the murder. If he would have committed this crime in an intoxicated state, that could open the possibility for Antonio to use the diminished capacity defense in court. And what would that have been? Just weed. You haven't used any weed at all since about a week ago, something like that? Yeah.

So again, if I came and said that we've talked with people that had mentioned that you were smoking marijuana within a week, like within a day or two, what would be there? I don't know how I would know, because when I do do it, it's usually just by myself and, like, somewhere where no one's around. So if somebody was talked to that said that they sold you weed within that week, that would be a lie? Yeah. Okay. And if you would take a blood test or something, that's going to come back and show that it's been at least. the week. Yeah. This is a misleading statement from the detective. No drug test, including a blood test,

can reveal exactly how long it's been since the suspect lasted drugs. Rather, a drug test tells conclusively whether a person has done drugs within a certain time frame based on whether traces of the drug are still present in their system. A blood test specifically can tell whether or not a person has smoked marijuana within the last three days, or up to a week for heavy users. Have you ever been in that car, though, your grandma's car? I think I've been in the back before if she's bringing me to my other grandma's house that's in

some one falls. But that would have been a really long time ago. Like, what are we talking, a year? Like, four or five months ago? But it was at least four or five months since you were in that vehicle. Yeah, it's been a really long time. So if we get evidence, and I'll tell you right now we have that vehicle, and it's going to be able to show as far as fingerprints or whatever probably, that you've been in there within four to five months. If this claim sounds outlandish, that's because it is. It is not possible to date fingerprints.

This is likely another lie to intimidate Antonio into confessing. In recent years, states across the country have begun to acknowledge that lying to minors in an interrogation is coercive and poses. a much higher likelihood of yielding a false confession than if the suspect were an adult. Some states insist that suspects under 15 years of age have a parent, guardian, or other interested party present with them during questioning. This is because typically young offenders don't fully understand the gravity of the situation, or their right to remain silent, which automatically gives the detective the upper hand in a situation just like this. I just want to make sure

You're pretty sure that's the last time you were in there, right? Yeah. So it shouldn't show that, correct? Yeah. Yeah, it shouldn't show it? Yeah. Okay. Any of your friends ever been in that car that you're aware of?

I have no idea. I don't think so. Actually, the only friends you even talked about is Nathan, I think, right? Yeah. Rubbing or covering the eyes is another indicator of possible deception, as it can be a subconscious attempt to hide from the detective or the situation as a whole. Where you stayed, has he ever been in that car?

That you're aware of, and I'm assuming you would have been with him, right? Or does he know your great-grandma? I think he's been there once. That's your great-grandmas? Yeah, I think one of the times when I was working he went with. And do you remember ever being in your grandma's car, great-grandma's car, I'm sorry, Barber Olson's car, with your friend Nathan in the car, too?

No. Okay. So as far as you know, he's never been in that car, correct? Unless he would have been there alone, which is that doubtful or probable? I don't see how he would have been. This is another example of a qualifying statement. Innocent people typically provide a more direct response, such as a simple yes or no. Instead, Antonio is being careful and giving ambiguous answers that he can later turn around and change if necessary.

So you'd be extremely surprised if he's been in the car, right? Yeah. The detective creates a long silence by pausing to take notes. This is also an interrogation strategy, as a suspect will often find the quietness uncomfortable, and continue talking in order to break the awkward silence. However, it seems that Antonio has nothing else to say. It's worth noting that the interrogation has been going on for over half an hour, and Antonio hasn't pressed the issue of what exactly has.

happened to his great-grandmother, how she was killed, or who could have hurt her. This line of questioning is often lacking when a person is guilty. They simply don't think to ask because they already know what happened. So what's the most recent time you would have been in your grandma's bedroom, do you think? Probably to go to the bathroom, which it would have been last time when I was working. And that was that monster's logo. Yeah. So that would have been when I went in there, I'd go to the bathroom.

Right. And as far as being in your grandma's room, would you've just gone in there to get to the bathroom? Yeah. That would be it. I would have used it to go to the bathroom. Like, gone from there, went to the bathroom, came back out, went around. And you've never seen, like, if she kept her jewelry on a counter, or what she would keep it in, anything like that. Do you have any idea at all? Um, if I'd take a guess, I'd say, they're bedroom like everyone else. Antonio is yawning frequently. He could be experiencing excessive tiredness in relation to his marijuana usage, or he could genuinely be sleeping poorly in such uncomfortable conditions.

An alternative explanation for the yawning could be a heightened level of anxiety, which can be relieved by delivering more air into the lungs. In fact, in just the last 30 seconds, Antonio has pursed his lips, yawned, sniffled, touched his face and scratched both his neck and the back of his head. This is the exact kind of behavior the FBI looks for when interrogating a suspect. Three or more stress-adapting behaviors in quick succession is considered a heavy indicator of deception. Antonio has exhibited basically every body language behavior possible for heightened levels of anxiety and stress. I know I think I've seen a few things on top of her dresser when I've walked by.

That's not that I really remember about it. Would there be any reason that you would have bragged to somebody or anything about stealing a car within the past couple weeks? No. And again, is there any reason that somebody would say that? I don't really know. Instead of outright denying this time, Antonio claims he doesn't know. His answer to each bay question seems to be getting more and more uncertain as the interrogation drags on. I haven't said that, but I don't know why someone would have said it.

Okay. Would there be any reason that there would be a text or anything that would say something like that? I have no idea. I haven't had my phone. I haven't had my phone for like a month now. I don't need. Phone doesn't work. No, no.

His mom's phone only goes on the Internet a little bit. Did you have a cell phone before? I did before. I was getting in trouble. I had cell phone. When you went to school, Monday, what were you wearing? Black shirt, jeans, and my shoes.

Another thing I'm thinking if this is okay with you, Nate, and with your mom, is that I'd just like to take some pictures of your shoes and the bottom of your shoes. Would that be okay? Yeah. Okay. Though Nathan responds in the affirmative, he certainly doesn't seem very enthused about the idea.

It's likely that while ransacking the home, Antonio and Nathan left shoe prints, possibly bloody ones at the crime scene. The photographs they'll take of Nathan's shoes will be compared to the prints found at the crime scene and used as corroborating evidence that he was indeed present at Barbara's house around the time the murder was committed.

When you got put in here, what kind of clothes were you wearing? I wore clothes with a lot of designs, like a really designed t-shirt with like blue, like coloring that was like shiny and then a black like overcoat thing I buttoned down the two bottoms and then I can put sure light jeans

blue or what? Yeah, light bluer jeans and then my shoes. Do you have socks or not? I'm wearing my socks. The same ones, yeah? Yeah. If we would look at those shoes, would there be any reason at all

that we would find any blood on them? No. And if we would find blood on them, What would that be from? Can you think of anything? Were you ever near anything in the past couple weeks that there was any blood there? Not really.

Not that I can think of. This is referred to as a selective memory statement. Statements like these are hard to refute and easy for suspects to go back and change without it being obvious that they're outright lying. Though vague, this is still a strange statement since anyone, especially someone with only one pair of shoes, would surely remember stepping in blood.

Are you the only person that wears those shoes? Yeah. So you never borrow them to Nathan, you never borrow them to your other friends that you... No, I don't want to borrow shoes because I don't have shoes to wear because I only have one pair. Would it be okay with you if we took those shoes

and checked them for blood? Sure, but I do have my hearing today, so I need them for that. Otherwise, I can't walk. Have you cleaned them lately at all? Not really. You didn't throw them in a dishwasher, you didn't put a bunch of bleach on them, something like that. No.

I don't know. I'll clean my shoes. Okay. All right. We'll get back to that. I'm not sure, but I appreciate you letting us do it, and that might help us to clear some stuff out. When's the last time you went out to eat anywhere? You're not to eat.

Actually, out someplace, not just at Nathan's or at home or something, or at school. I mean, like out to a restaurant or... Restaurant. Something like that. I don't remember the last time I was. watch a restaurant it had have been months ago. When's the last time you were at Theo's Pizza? Thio's Pizza.

Suspects may repeat the question in order to give themselves an extra moment or two to think about how they want to respond to a particular question. If they didn't have an answer ready and they didn't repeat the question, they would be left with an awkward silence. This uncomfortable lag in conversation could increase the suspect's anxiety, and they may worry that the detective will see. their pause is suspicious. Oh, I'm there just like,

like two days ago, maybe three. Confronted with the exact name of the restaurant, Antonio changes his answer as if it had slipped his mind. It's hard to believe that someone would have completely forgotten something that only happened two or three days ago. So within that two to three months then? Well, no, I mean like two or three days. Right, so that's within two or three months that you just said, right?

Oh, I guess. Two or three days ago, which if today's Thursday, you're saying either Tuesday or Monday? Um, I guess Tuesday. Tuesday? I think Tuesday. When someone is feeling very stressed, their mouth and throat may become dry. This can lead to behavior such as drinking more water, increased clearing of the throat, or increased licking of the lips. Do you know about what time?

Oh, I'm going to say like about one. It's just, yeah, it's just a guess, though. Were you there alone or? It was me and Nate. We went to take a pizza. So how did you guys get to Theo's pizza? It's not that far, but walk. So you just walked?

Yeah, it's not that far. About how far? Probably about a 30-minute walk. And who paid for that? What's your nates? We had a $20. Where did you get that, do you know? I remember where we found out on the floor at his house.

That day or when? I think so. Well, it doesn't sound like you have a whole lot of money, so if you found a $20 bill, it should stick out, right? Yeah. So you're pretty sure that it was Tuesday that you found it on the floor of name? It was either Tuesday morning when I woke up, or it'd be Monday, like, late at night.

Because I remember, then we were hungry, so we decided to go get some pizza because it's not that much money. It's only for like $5.25 for our pizza. Okay. I think basically, I'm going to give you one more chance to tell the truth, okay? I've already told you that we've talked with a lot of people, okay? All right. And we've had the state crime lab in. We have a lot of evidence.

You know it's a video world nowadays. we have video evidence. We have a lot of stuff, okay? And I'll tell you right now, you're not telling me the truth. This is another facet of the reed interrogation technique called a positive confrontation. Without being too aggressive,

the detective is letting Antonio know definitively that they have evidence that proves that his story is untrue. The detective puts a little extra pressure on him by advising him that this is his very last chance to tell the truth. Is there anything at all? that you've talked to me about,

that you want to change your story and tell me the truth, or do you want to stay with what I consider a lot of lies? And you need to really think about this, okay? And you need to think about your future, and you need to think about the potential of being in front of a judge and saying he straight out lied about absolutely everything. He never took any credit for anything and said that he had nothing to do with anything at all

as far as great Grandma Olson. So think about it for a second. Let me just make sure. Here, the detective is giving Antonio an incentive to come clean without specifically promising him any leniency by the prosecutor or judge in exchange for his honesty. Antonio sits in silence for several seconds, presumably thinking of things that an innocent person wouldn't have to think about.

I say it's to you, Nate, and for your mom to hear it too. You've obviously gotten in trouble with Tino before. And I don't know if Tino's done anything or not here, but it's really important that you take care of you. Do you understand what I'm saying? Yeah. And not get sucked into any trouble with him. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Okay. You understand the seriousness of this, right? And you understand that you're taking a big roll of the dice here, right? And apparently you want to try that. Wait. With what? with telling the truth or lying,

you're telling me that you are straight up, telling me that 100% truth about everything that you've told me, correct? No. Okay, I want you to clarify then what you haven't been totally truthful about. I will sit here and listen to the truth, but I'm not going to sit here and listen to a bunch of more lies, okay? And it sounds like you'd have a pretty tight time

of being home here over the last few days. Yeah. But it's really important that if you know, even if you know, like you weren't there, because it sounds like you've been here at home or here at school, except for on yesterday, that if he told you about something that he did, and it doesn't get you into trouble by telling us

if he told you things that he did. But I don't want it to be any trouble for you if he did tell you that he did something against the law since he's been a runaway since last Friday. And I know you don't want to get your friend into trouble, but it's pretty important that you, not try to call her for him. You know what I mean?

You understand what I'm saying? Yeah. Okay. So I want you to tell me the truth of what happened. That's all we're looking for is the truth. We don't want to pin something on somebody that doesn't deserve to have anything pinned on him or her or whatever. I want the truth, and that's what we're going for here, okay? So what do you want to clarify and tell me the truth about?

What else do you want to share with us? Can I write it down. Can you write it down? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you can write it down. Nathan is basically speaking in a whisper at this point. He's likely experiencing symptoms of extreme stress,

one of them being the drying of his mucous membranes. This dryness and the vocal cords can cause someone's pitch to sound different. His raspy voice, combined with the fact that he doesn't even want to make the statement out loud, indicates that whatever he has to say isn't any good. Okay, Ken, here I'll give you a piece of paper. The room is dead silent, but for the sound of Nathan's sobs and the pen scratching against the paper. Nathan proceeds to scribble nine words, then hands the note to the detective. You can understand with what you wrote down.

It's very scared. Yeah. Nathan seems to be having an extreme emotional response to whatever is on that note, as it sounds like he's still crying. He's surely showing more emotion in this moment than Antonio showed throughout. the duration of his interview so far. Because you wrote that down, Nate, I want to be able to read Miranda rights to you. You understand what I'm saying?

The need to read Nathan his Miranda rights at this point indicates that whatever he confessed officially places him in police custody. Realizing that you have these rights, are you now willing to answer questions or make a statement? Yeah. I know you wrote that down and maybe you wrote it down because you didn't want her to hear it. to hear that. Is that why you wrote that down? Okay. It's common for juveniles to withhold information when being questioned in front of a parent for fear of disappointing them. A parent's presence is more likely to stir up feelings of shame and remorse that can cause the minor to be dishonest.

This seems to be especially true for Nathan as he seems to start sobbing uncontrollably when the detective goes to tell his mother what he wrote down. So, Bobby, you heard us read the Miranda rights to your son, right? Okay. And you heard us talking with him sitting where you're at about basically what he's been up to and his association with Tino and what he's been up to since last Friday when Tino ran away from school, right? Okay. And you could hear us talking about that and everything that he's done. I know, Nate, you just wrote that down on the piece of paper because you didn't want your mom to hear, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I know you're really scared right now. You said you were with Tino? Yeah.

And when was that? Monday. Okay. So, Nate, explain to you that we work with other police agencies on investigations. And so we're working on investigation involving Tino's, it's his great-grandma, okay? Yeah. And you said you were with Tino on Monday. Yeah?

Yeah. Tino did not go to school on Monday? No. Okay. And he was here. He was at your house? Yeah. When you left for school on Monday?

Yeah. Nathan is now answering questions clearly and without delay, indicating that this is likely the true version of events. On Monday, when you got home from school, what happened, Nate? We were talking. You said, I know how to get money. Me and Nate did. I heard of my grandma's.

One. Monday. You said he killed his grandma, but I thought he was just joking around with me. Okay. And then I asked my mom to take us to Shuborg and falls. And I told her that we're going to meet up with our friends. Then we attacked her. A very interesting choice of words.

When describing their crime, suspects will often use language that makes the offense sound less egregious, such as Antonio's use of the word attacked. rather than killed. You and date it the actor? There was both of us. With what? Like hammer thing. And then like a hammer thing with an axe at the other end.

And what time was it on Monday? I don't know, like, probably like four, five. And why? Why was this done? At first I wasn't wanting to. Like, we were in a garage through one of the doors, just like waiting. And the garage door was opened. Okay, the garage door was open at his grandma's house?

Yeah. And then we went there. And then he had a plastic bag. He just took it off. And then right his side was open, the door, his grandma would, like, walk down. And she's like, is that Tina? And she was like, no. And I'm standing behind the door.

And she, like, tell her, because I, like, stepped on something. And then she said, come out. I came on and then me, and she's like, what do you do? She asked us if we were cold, and that's why we're in the garage. And she said, yeah. It's heartbreaking to think that Barbara's very last act was one of care and concern for the two boys who, not even ten minutes later, would mercilessly end her life. And then she brought us in because she said she was going to call my mom,

and I was already missing and wanted with a warrant. and I didn't want that done. So then, yeah. Antonio's answer evades the detective's question of exactly why he attacked Barbara. His answer explains why he would have chosen that very moment to attack, but it doesn't explain what he and his friend

are doing at his great-grandmother's house unannounced and armed with weapons. His true motive will later prove to be one of the most chilling aspects of Barbara's murder. So that's your thought process, is that you don't want grandmother to call and a great grandma to call and you get the warrant and the police are going to come or whatever?

Yeah. Okay. So what did you have that you attacked your great grandma with? There's like an axe looking thing. It's called it. It wasn't it at all? Like that. So what are we saying?

12, 15 inches, something like that? Probably. Do you know what a hatchet is or not? I don't know what a hatchet is, but it was like an axe, but then it had. had like a flat side on it, like a flat metal side. And I think Nate just had a normal hammer. Okay, did you see him with that hammer? Yeah, I saw him with the hammer. All right. Where did you get this small axe or whatever that you were talking about? From the garage. From your garage? And where did Nathan get that hammer? I think that was just in his house. Since the boys brought

weapons from other locations to Barbara's house and didn't tell Nathan's mom the truth about where they were going, it's safe to say that their deadly assault was premeditated. What's even more disturbing is how monotone and impassive his description of events is. He's still maintaining his same cool demeanor and lack of emotion. However, Antonio isn't fidgeting nearly as much as he was before. This lets detectives know that it's more likely that he's telling the truth now. Did you guys talk about this as far as what you were going to do? Obviously, if you got a hatchet and he got a hammer and you've got to.

You got a ride from his mom. There was some thought about it, right? What was the discussion? We were deciding if and how we were going to do it, and then how we were to get a ride there, how did we get a ride back, all that? So after your mom dropped you and Tino off by the roundabout at 42 and 28, what happened then, Nate?

We walked to her house, this cripple. His grandma? In order to get from where they were dropped off to great-grandma Barb's house, the boys would have had to have walked about two miles. It takes the average person approximately 15 to 20 minutes to walk a single mile. This means that the boys had at least a half hour to rethink their decisions before they got to Barbara's door. And then when we got a ride there and we were in the garage, I didn't really want to do it as much.

Like, I didn't want to do it. But then when we were in the house, like, Nate was like nodding at me and all that. So then I took the first swing. Antonio's claim that he initially wanted to bail on their plan to attack and rob his great-grandmother means nothing. The two will still be charged with acting in concert to carry out their crime. The fact that he took the first swing makes this supposed change of heart seem even less believable. Where did you hear? It was that first swing.

Take the head. And you talked about a flat back and then like the sharp part? Yeah. Which way did you? hit her the first time, do you know? Flat part. Was there a reason at all, or that's just the way it ended up in your hand or what? Of course, you're just because it was a flat part and I found more blood, blunt, would

work? Work as far as what? For hitting, just like in general. Well, hitting in general as far as to put her down quicker, or what do you mean? Yeah, that's been it. Okay. And why did you go there? and come up with a plan to do this?

I think he was mainly just for money. A statement filled with such coldness and detachment as if he were talking about a stranger. To be willing to end his great-grandmother's life in pursuit of money shows a callousness and lack of consciousness that one wouldn't even expect from a young teenager. Even worse is the fact that he's able to confess

to something so horrid without a hint of emotion or remorse. After shrugging, Antonio then qualifies his answer with, I think, which is a red flag for possible deception, as the reason he killed his grandma is likely something he does know for sure. Notice how he says it was mainly just for money, which indicates that there was something else he was motivated by as well. It's not surprising that he gave this answer, though, as blaming it on the money is an easier and more socially acceptable answer than saying he just wanted to kill someone. All right, so you go there to try to get some

money and you bring the hatchet, he brings the hammer. You hit her the first time and where was this? Were you in the garage or in the house or? We were in the house. You said she had let you in, did you say? Yeah. Okay. Um, did she know it was you? Yeah. So she saw you and opened the door or what? Yeah, she opened the door like the garage door, there's no window and then she saw me. But she didn't see that hat like in me how I've had it. And so then she told me to go inside and then I was just like putting it under my sweatshirt and then she said she was going to call my mom

and then like Nate looked at me and he nodded. Here he's insinuating that his friend Nathan was the ringleader and driving force behind this attack. This could be entirely true or he could be attempting to pass some of the blame off to his friend so that he doesn't look like such a bad guy for having attacked Barbara first. So you ate her once with the flat end right?

Yeah. Did she go right down or did she fight or what happened? She, I think, yelled like once, and then I hit her one more time. And I think then I ran to the bathroom because I didn't feel good. And then I'm, of course, her hit her once or twice with his, like, camera thing. And that's about all. This part of Antonio's story might be believable, were it not for the fact that an autopsy of Barbara Olsen's body concluded that she was hit approximately 27 times in total.

Her wounds indicated both blunt and sharp force trauma, a truly brutal and merciless attack. So how long were you back in the bathroom here? From about 30 seconds. And then what happened? And I'm quite sure I went to the front, like over here. And then she wasn't like alive and we didn't know what to do and we were freaking out and we were probably there for like two hours

not knowing what to do. Did you ever hit her with the sharp end of the blade? I think I gave it. I think that Nate took it from me and did once. Like only one time, though, with a sharp end. The two start hitting her over and over again. When he stopped, he looked at me, and when he said, Nate, help.

And I was standing there. This part of the story presents an interesting contradiction to Antonio's story. Antonio alleged that Nathan initiated the attack by signaling to him to attack Barbara. Then, according to Antonio, after hitting her twice, he ran to the bathroom because he felt sick, and Nathan continued to hit her. Here, Nathan claims that Antonio hit Barbara spontaneously and did most of the attacking. He even has the same sudden change of heart that Antonio had in his story, but claims to have hit her anyway because he feared for his safety. Both of the of them are telling versions of the story that make the other appears the ringleader and themselves as the helpless follower.

However, this ultimately won't matter since they're both confessing to have taken part in Barbara's murder. He told me to help because I walked over there. And then he started to hear her again. I was watching. He told me to hear. I didn't want it. and he walked him hitting me, so I hit her twice and then I walked away. And he kept hitting her.

This was dead. Chimo covered headless something. And then we, he went around grabbing stuff, putting it in a bag. Then I had to go in the pockets and grab the keys for the car. and he wanted to dump the body in the leghick or something, but we were sound enough to pick her up and put her in the trunk. And then you sit there for like two hours trying to figure out what to do, right? Yeah.

And what are you throwing back and forth, like what you're going to do here? I think you're going to try to see if there's any way we could like get her into the trunk, but that didn't work. So then we were started like, pulling back towards the main door, but then we couldn't get her up like one of the steps to get in the house. Okay, so you took her from the living room

and got her where then? You took her out into the garage by the car. And was that both you and Nathan? Yeah, and then we couldn't get her in the trunk, so we just like started pulling, we were gonna go to the basement, but then we couldn't get up the first stair. So then of course we didn't know what to do.

So we decided just to like believe with that. and then go. So is like one of you on the hands and one on the legs or what? We were trying to like, we like sat out right there and then we tried lifting up, but like we couldn't even move it a few inches off the ground. So we just like stopped trying. And then did you go back inside or where are we in this two hour span?

We're quite sure we didn't go back inside. I'm quite sure we ran into the back room grabbed like a few of the boxes and all that crap in there in there and just threw it in the bag. Then I think we grabbed, like, three sodas that were in part of the basement right here. And I think we just left. And then Nate was driving. And I'm driving which car then?

That car. So that's your great grandma's car, right? Yeah. It's haunting to know that two 13-year-old boys are capable of such a cold-blooded crime. Not only did they murder a relative, but they immediately proceeded to heartlessly rummage through her belongings for things they could take, as if they hadn't already taken enough. A card, like what it is, though.

Okay. You know that it's your great-grandma's card, though. Yeah. Okay. Which back room did you say it went into to grab some boxes? What was that? So her bedroom? Yeah.

And what do you mean? What kind of boxes? I'm quite sure. I had jewelry, but it all looked like, as you said, fake, you know that? And I remember she had, like, clip-on earrings and all that. Antonio's explanation of the crime throws up several red flags. It's heavily littered with selective statements such as, I think, and I'm quite sure. If he'd only used these phrases once or twice, it might not have been suspicious.

However, he uses these a half-dozen times. Throughout his recount, he also alternates between referring to the body as it and hurt. Perhaps this is his attempt to distance himself emotionally from the victim. And he wanted me to drive. And then I got to the driver's seat. He got on the passengers. And we opened the garage door, drove out and closed it and came back here. And where did you drive her car to, Nate?

By a church. By a church? Yeah. And then me walked to my house. Then you came back here? And then he went to the purse and grabbed the money. And then he threw it in the store. And then we just went to bed that night.

And then yesterday. Yeah. And then we took the car and parked it at some bowling place. And then we went because he was hoping. So he wanted to buy C.O's pizza. And we ate there. And he said, just to leave the car there. So we bought.

gloves and wipes to wipe the car down. So there are fingerprints off, and we just left the car. And we locked my house. Nathan is leaving out a particularly interesting purchase that the boys made with the stolen money. He's likely omitting this information out of fear that divulging it will make him look even worse in the eyes of the law and detectives. Soon, we'll find out exactly where the majority of the proceeds from their heist went. So then you go out and you say he drove?

Yeah, he drove. And where did you go from there then? So we took the car. We put her park by, like, some bank that was like two blocks away from his house. Then we just walked there. So two blocks away from Nate's house? Yeah. Okay.

Then we walked back to his house. And I think we were just there for the rest of the night. And then the next day is the day he didn't want to go to school. So what happens on Tuesday with you guys? We went in, yeah, pizza, but we took the car to a place across from McDonald. You didn't park there. And then we bought, like we went, walked, bought some pizza, AIDS. And when we were walking back, we went and got gloves and cleaning stuff.

And we went to the car, just kind of wiped it down a little bit, then left the car, keys to the car, and then left it, like, unlocked and everything. Where was that? I think across from McDonald's. Oddly enough, Antonio omitted the same detail that Nate did concerning how they used the money. Neither of them want to admit where most of the money went. Remind me again if you already said it. What happened to her purse?

We took that and then the actual purse thing. I think we threw down the sewer. And who threw that down? He did. She went outside and threw it. Okay. Was there anything in the purse that you guys took? There is money like cash, nothing else that we kept.

You just told us a lot of things, okay? So, and I know you don't want to keep. keep talking about. I know it's really hard for you to talk about it, but I just have to ask some questions, okay? At this point in the interrogation, the detective is going to go back over Nathan's story and ask clarifying questions in order to make sure she has his story correct, and also to note any changes he might make to his version of events. When did he tell you or show you that he had the hatchet right when you got home from school? Yeah. What did he say? He said she was somewhat rich. and that he was going to get the card to card pin to take all her money out.

Then he was going to kill her right away. She was going to, like, scare her. And then right as she go grab for her, he was going to hit her in the back of the head. He said that was what his plan was? Yes. Nathan is placing all the planning on Antonio and making himself seem more like a bystander who's just going along with what Antonio says. Co-defendants often do this in the hopes that they'll get less time.

since they weren't the mastermind behind the crime. Did he have anything else with him? A hammer. A hammer? Yeah. Okay. Did he also get that from his house? No.

Here. So he had the hammer too? No, he made me hold that. Nathan claims that Antonio made him hold the hammer, but doesn't say exactly how he made him do this. It doesn't seem very plausible or possible that Antonio physically forced Nathan to hold the He's clearly attempting to downplay his involvement in the crime. So you held the hammer and then did you guys take anything else with you?

No. So then your mom, you told your mom that you're going to see a friend. Yeah. You guys are going to see a friend out there? Yeah. Had you been to his grandma's house before? Yeah. You met her before?

I really beat her. He just went there to earn money, but he was going to steal the money because he was because he was going to do, like, yard work to get paid. Uh-huh. But when he would decide, I guess she took 100. That was another time? Yeah, it was months ago. Months ago?

Yeah. Okay. According to Nathan, Antonio has stolen from his great-grandma Barbara before. This might explain why he was under the impression that she had lots of money, or why she was the first target that came to his mind when he was concocting his plans to get some cash. You said you got to her house and the garage door was open? Yeah. Do you guys walk in the garage?

We walked in the garage, tried the bags, didn't, like, really work out. What were you doing with the bags? Putting over our heads. Why is that? Just so she can tell who we were. In Nathan's initial telling of the story, he claims that only Antonio tried to put a bag over his head to conceal his identity. It's not uncommon for suspects to leave things out or lie about minor details to save as much face as possible. even after they've already confessed to the major details.

And then that didn't work out, so I gave him my sweatshirt to wear to cover his face. Did you then hide in the garage or kind of stand off to the side? I said he wanted me to open the door. To go inside to her house? Yes. But right as I went to open it, it opened, and she was standing right there. And he's like, do you want to come inside? And then he said, yeah, so we were going to.

inside. And she's like, don't steal none of my money. This offhand comment from Barbara to Antonio indicates that she's aware that he's stolen money from her before. And then, you know, looked at her, looked at me and then looked at her. And then she said she's going to call his mom. And then right after it, she said that, he hit her on the head. He like stumbled to the floor, hit her once to the floor, and then hit her three more times. She said stop her hands were in the way so he probably hit her hands in arms. This account coincides with that battered state of Barbara's arms when her body was found. She'd spent her final moments pleading with her great-grandson not to kill her

while attempting to shield her head and face from the vicious attack. Then he said, Nate, help. Okay. And then he took off the sweatshirt. And then he slowly, and then he walked over and started to hit her again. I slowly walked over and I was panicking and know if I should do it or not. I didn't want him to start hating me, so I hate her. This is a rather large deviation from Antonio's story. According to Antonio, both he and Nathan only struck Barbara a few times with their weapons. Nathan is describing a scene where Antonio is savagely beating his great-grandmother,

even taking a second to remove his sweatshirt before continuing to bludgeon. her to death. She got knocked on conscience, and then she started to snore. And then Anthony just used the sharp side and shut her really hard, and it got stuck in there. Here lies another contradiction to Antonio's story. Antonio claimed that Nathan took the hatchet from him and hit her once with the sharp side of it. In Nathan's version here, it was actually Antonio that chopped Barbara in the head with the hatchet.

For two friends who were supposedly very close, they seem to have no problem throwing each other to the wolves if it meant that they can escape. And her whole top of her was like gone. Her whole what was gone? The whole top of her head. If nothing else, the sheer extent of the overkill scene here is enough to provide evidence of the intent to kill Barbara. The attack was simply too brutal to be the result of a robbery gone wrong. I started to panic again, and then I was pacing back and forth because I didn't really want to do it. And then he was doing the same.

And he grabbed the light to tell me to go, right down the door handles that we touched. Their choice to clean up after themselves before leaving the scene of the crime is further proof that the two were indeed aware and thinking competently throughout the ordeal. especially Antonio, who, according to Nathan's story, is instructing him on how to cover up the crime scene. Nathan's version of the story does a convincing job of painting Antonio as the evil genius. And when you realized you couldn't lift her back up into the trunk, you dragged her back towards the door that goes into the house? The two of you? Yeah. Okay.

When did you put the blanket over her body? When we realized we couldn't put her to the trunk. So we were like going to wrap her body up in the house. and see if we could, like, have the two ends of the sheet, like, twist it up so we can, like, lift it, but that didn't work, so we just left it right there next to the door set. What about her head and that? Did you guys... Um, he put plastic bags over it, and then he told me to give him my belt, and then he tied that around her neck.

Why did he do that? Like, so if we could have picked her out, so like blood didn't spill everywhere. Where did you get the bags from? She had, so she gardens a lot. Mm-hmm. She had garbage bays and then throw weeds in. I was actually there and saw your great grandma, okay? And there was something on her head.

Do you remember what that would have been? A bag. Okay, what color? Black. And how did that get there? From in the garage. There's bags in the garage. And why was it put on there?

Because I didn't like seeing it. Didn't like seeing her face or what? Yeah. Or the, I don't want to put words in your mouth. So what didn't you like seeing? Everything that happened. It's not uncommon for killers to cover their victim's face if it's a family member, friend, or partner.

Seeing the face of their deceased loved one might trigger certain emotions that the killer would likely rather avoid. The fact that Antonio felt the need to do this indicates that he felt some type of negative emotion when he saw what he did to her, possibly due to lingering traces of an emotional attachment or even hints of remorse. So that's why, did you put the bag on her head? I think so, yeah. And what kept that bag on her head? Nates felt. So did he put that on or did you of course he gave to me that I did. What happened with the hammer? It's like we put it in the trunk.

And what about the hatchet? The trunk. Okay. And the jewelry? The backseat. And the purple bag? Backsuit. And there's a bloody coat in the trunk.

A bloody coat in the trunk? Yeah. Because that's what we first put over her head. You first put the coat over her head? Yeah. Okay. Where were the keys for her car at? Pocket.

Okay. And you said that you got the keys out of her pants pocket? Yeah. What was in the purple bag? She had, like, shoes and a camera case with a camera in it, and then a wallet, and then her purse. And we put, like, cleaning the wipes in it. Mm-hmm.

And it's all we put in that bag. When he wanted to sell the true really so he could have money, because he was just going to run away. And what, how much money was there in their cash? About, I think, $150. And where is that? Some of it went towards food, and then we got pizza, and then some of it went towards weed,

which I think is actually still at his house upstairs if he didn't get it and then I think that's it so all that money's gone yeah so you just took the cash out of there yeah what did you keep from the purse the money just the cash yeah

and weed how much weed did you buy 145 for it who did you buy that from um I don't know who's he bought it from. Tino bought the weed? Yeah.

Were you with him when he bought it? No. Where did you guys buy it at? Or where did he buy it at? He bought it from some kids that he knew who were in high school. Who actually bought the weed? They were like both. We were both there.

Oh, did you both actually have the money and give it to whoever you bought the weed from? Like, I had, like, the money with me. Like, I kept it in my pocket. Have you bought it from whoever that person is before or not? Yeah, I have. and Nathan managed to steal a mere $155 from Grandma Barbara's house. They proceeded to spend all but $10 of that money on weed and the rest of it on pizza, both momentary and fleeting desires.

They enjoyed getting high and having a meal at the cost of a human life. Their young age is certainly a reason for their poor decision-making, but their actions go far beyond the self-centeredness of typical teenagers. Their actions and mindset are very much reflective of children with severe conduct disorder. Yeah, we woke up the next morning. Tuesday morning? Yeah. Yesterday morning?

Yeah, and then that's what I decided not to go to school. What about the stuff in the trunk? We just left it there. I'm the kids are standing on the seat because Tito thought that if somebody else would do a block spot, he's just in there that he would take the car and if they find it. the car, they would have thought he did it. This half-baked plan is full of sizable holes. It goes to show their immaturity and unsophisticated thinking,

which is to be expected from offenders of their age. And you woke up today and went to school? Yeah, and Tina wasn't at school. You're okay. It's interesting that Nathan resolved to go to school the next day. After the events of Monday afternoon, he was probably eager to resume his normal life. Realistically, Nathan said goodbye to his child.

as soon as he participated in the murder, and he likely felt this. Do you have any questions for us right now or not? They need you so much time I'm looking at. After ending his own great-grandmother's life, scarring his whole family, including his mother, and implicating his closest friend, Antonio is still only concerned about the consequences that will affect him. His fidgeting hands indicate that the amount of time he'll spend in prison is a source of great anxiety for him.

I don't make that decision. Obviously, there's a district attorney that is going to file charges, and it's up to the judge or jury, as far as that. And then, am I saying, am I hearing today or no? I'm not sure. I can tell you that you're not going to get out if you do have the hearing.

Because you are going to end up getting charged. You realize that, right? And do you realize what you're getting charged with? Murder. Right? So first-degree intentional homicide of your great-grandma, Barbara Olson. You do understand the severity of that, right? Yeah. Bobby, do you have any questions for us right now? No? Okay.

It's surprising that the mother wouldn't have any questions after learning that her son just helped kill his friend's great-grandmother in such a vicious manner, and that he used her to carry out their heinous plans. Nate, do you have any questions for us right now? No. Okay. We're going to be collecting the clothing that Nate pointed out that he was wearing on Monday and his shoes and Tina's clothing that he pointed out in his bedroom, okay? Okay. We'll have to take Nate into custody right now and from the house.

Do you understand that, Nate? Do you understand that, Bobby? Yeah. Okay. Okay. You realized what you're going to be? charged with, I've told you, right? Right? Okay. One other

thing, I actually heard that you were really a good kid and into sports and all kinds of stuff and then something happened. Oh, it's in five car. Right? So then is that what happened, that you go from being into sports and a good kid to what we just talked about?

What else is in the middle of there? Not being able to do anything. What do you mean? Like, everything I wanted to ever do. had to do with some sort of combat or like stuff I wasn't too long because of my head. Like I wanted to be in boxing and MMA and football. And because of what happened to your head, you couldn't do any of that? No.

What happened? I was hit by car in fifth grade. And what happened as far as why you would not be able to do any of that stuff then? I got a concussion, which they say I still have. but I say I don't. An interview with his grandma Judy, the victim's daughter, confirmed that Antonio had indeed been hit by a car while riding a bike when he was 10 years old.

It's true that this accident might have caused traumatic brain damage that resulted in a drastic change of personality. Studies have shown that brain injuries that occur during developmental years can cause long-lasting neurocognitive changes, such as memory loss, personality changes, intense aggression and lack of inhibition. On the other hand, as a teenage boy who was never able to do any of the things he wanted to do, he might have felt as though his life was already over and that his actions didn't matter.

But they say it would just get worse if I join anything. Does there anything else? I'll give you one last chance. Anything else you want to make sure that I include in this report? Not really. Antonio is escorted out of the interrogation room, immediately following his interview Nathan is arrested and also taken into police custody. The note that Nathan had written, the note that would send chills down the spines of seasoned detectives, read, He killed his grandma, and I was with him.

Antonio initially pleaded not guilty to the murder on the grounds that he was mentally ill. A psychiatrist who dissessed Antonio testified at his trial that Antonio does indeed suffer from cognitive issues caused by him being hit by a car, just a few years prior. However, it seemed that this crime was simply too heinous to be overlooked. Even the judge would say that this was the worst case he'd seen in his 24 years as a judicial officer. On June 24, 2013, he changed his plea to no contest as part of a plea deal. On August 12, Antonio Barbeau was found guilty of the first-degree intentional homicide of his great-grandmother, Barbara Olson, and sentenced to life in prison with the possibility of parole in 36 years.

In the meantime, Nathan's trial was still ongoing. In fact, Antonio would testify at his dear friend's trial. He would take the stand and tell the court that Nathan was not the clueless follower the defense tried to pain him to be. He claimed that Nathan was just as involved in the planning of the murder and just as invested in carrying out the murder as he was. On the opposing side, Nathan's relatives argued that Nathan had the source development of a child and could easily be influenced into doing something that horrific by someone

like Antonio. At the end of the day, the gruesome and severe nature of Barbara's injuries, demonstrated by crime scene photos presented in the courtroom, attested to the fact that there was very likely more than one active killer. That was all the convincing the jury needed. On August 13, 2013, the day after Antonio was sentenced, Nathan Popp was also. found guilty of first-degree intentional homicide and sentenced to life in prison with the possibility of parole in 31 years. In 2016, Antonio attempted to appeal his sentence. Nathan attempted the same the following year. Both appeals were swiftly denied and the original sentences were upheld. Antonio was sent to the Wapon Correctional Institution and will be eligible for parole in

2048 when he is 50 years old. Nathan was taken to the Columbia Correctional Facility and will be eligible for parole in 2043 when he is 45 years old.