EXPLORE WITH US - The Disturbing Case of Daniel Marsh

Episode Date: December 3, 2023

The DISTURBING case of Daniel Marsh...The following podcast episode is not legal advice. Do not rely on the information in this presentation without speaking to a licensed attorney.No one discussed in these videos has been formally diagnosed by EWU and our psychological analysis is based on the general behaviors and traits of the people discussed.

Every time I look at someone, I see flashes of images of me killing one in numerous ways and numerous horrible ways doing terrible things. I can't help it. It's just what comes into my head when I see them. I want to hurt people. I want to kill people, but I don't want to want that. So how would you kill me? Choking you to dust with your tie, beating your face into the mirror until it broke, smashing your face into the wall. and the wall. Nothing personal. When he was just 12 years old, Daniel Marsh was publicly recognized for saving his father's

life after he suffered a medical emergency while driving. But just a few years later, Daniel had morphed into someone who no longer bore the slightest resemblance to that young hero. While he had a troubled childhood and faced teenage struggles, no one caught a hint of the dark intent harbored within. That is, until it was too late. Daniel would ultimately score higher than Dahmer and Gacy on the psychopathy scale, but even that might not explain the sheer depravity of his actions.

I felt screen bone a few times, bleeding everywhere. It was like gargling and stuff. Years later, police and professionals alike are still trying to understand exactly what went so wrong to drive a 15-year-old to commit a crime so gruesome and disturbingly well-executed that he almost got away with it. Perhaps even more shocking is the prospect that in less than two decades, he may freely roam the streets once again. The majority of the following interview footage has never been released to the public,

and our exclusive interviews with the victim's family and correspondence with the killer has never been seen before. It's been analyzed by a qualified team, including a licensed professional counselor, a licensed attorney, and a former detective, former licensed polygraph examiner and former hostage negotiation commander and instructor. Okay, good to name. Dan Marsh.

Is that your full name? Daniel William Marsh. Okay. Even though Daniel is a minor, he's being interviewed alone. It's mentioned later in the interview that his mother is waiting elsewhere in the facility, so the police potentially have her consent to conduct a solo interview. In California, a child may wave Miranda rights. thus enabling a legal interrogation, but two conditions must be met.

The waiver must be voluntary, and the child, age 17 or under, must have actually consulted with an attorney. Parental consent is not required, and there's no statutory or other basis on which a parent can waive those rights for the minor. In addition, parents do not have a statutory or constitutional right to be present during questioning of their child. You tell me what's probably playing video games or playing guitar. Usually what I do on my weekends is either I have somebody over, I just hang out and play video games or play music. You know what you're doing that specific weekend? Not exactly, but I don't really go places other than my friend's house. So I know that I don't think we aren't out that weekend.

I'm pretty sure I was at my house. And if I wasn't at my house, then I was at. The interview has barely started. but Daniel's behavior is likely already raising some red flags with the police. Answers like, I should have met at my house, not exactly, probably playing video games. Are selective memory statements, which could be a sign that he's trying to keep his story as vague as possible.

Why he might be acting this way isn't yet clear, but his body language supports the theory that he has something to hide. He's sitting very still, which could signal that he's thinking really hard about his story at the expense of moving and communicating naturally. As a result, police likely feel that they're getting close to solving the dreadful crime they're investigating. So you do know about the MERS that we're investigating even? Yeah, I mean, it's Davis when something like that happens here.

He knows about it. Tell me what you know about it. I think they were like an elderly couple or something. I know that somebody broke in and like stabbed these two people, but I don't. really know anything else breaking and entering. Do you know which apartment that did that? Well, not the actual one near my dad's. We drove by it a couple times and we saw like the police tape and everything. When was the last time you were there? In that area, cars were there. Sustained eye contact like Daniel demonstrates here is a big red flag for deception.

Daniel could be searching for any signs of doubt on the investigator's face, possibly prepared to change his story at the first hint of disbelief. He's also still using a lot of qualifying statements. Most people struggle with physiological responses to lying, and using avoidance techniques to sidestep an outright lie can help minimize that discomfort. Repetition, which Daniel is defaulting to, can also make a person feel like they're solidifying their story. I'm just also trying to clear up some things, maybe some rumors,

and maybe some information in regards to you and the murder about the number of the app. What's anything that you don't hear anything about me? Notice how Daniel's hand start to twitch and how his speech stumbles. About me. He can't even get through the statement at first. Well, it becomes more than a rumor. We'll get more information that I can be proof.

I pretty sure if you ask my mom, she'll say I was there. This is not reassuring because it's likely that his own mom is the one person who would lie and say he was there, rather than having been somewhere else. It seems Daniel may be thinking only along the lines of, they have no way of proving I wasn't home. When he mentions an alibi, this indicates that he's basically labeling himself a suspect. Here, the investigator does a good job of the silent standoff. Most people are uncomfortable with silence when sitting with someone. so they'll try to fill the silence. The officer is trying to see if Daniel will start nervous rambling again.

He doesn't, but he does reach over and grab his water and start drinking to break the anxiety of the moment. Even though he's still sticking to a story, the interview techniques are clearly having some kind of effect on him. It begs the question, if he's truly as uninvolved as he claims, why is he getting nervous? It's at this moment that a new investigator joins the conference. conversation, and the energy in the room has a marked shift. Hey, Earl, how are you doing? Hi. You must be Daniel? Yeah. I'm Chris.

I'm nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. I'm from the FBI. The criminal profiling stuff and been working with Ariel in this case since it happened. So, sorry, I'm a little late, but you guys have been talking. Eddie told me you guys. I've been talking a little bit. Yeah. Sounds like this young man has quite a history. can be so bold to say that. The FBI agent describes Daniel's history rather harshly, but not inaccurately. So, Dan, his parents split? Yeah, like parents split.

Mom disappeared for a few months, left with dad who was, well, he has a temper problem, and, you know, just lost his wife, so he's going to be pissed off. And so that wasn't. It seems like, you know, there's a new, like, bad thing to happen. As Daniel opens up to the officer, he includes more details about his struggles, such as how unhappy he felt living with just his father and the pain of his mother's absence. It was really she left with, she looked with a... The woman Daniel's mother started a relationship with was none other than Daniel's former kindergarten teacher.

The way I say that when you're a parent, made it your duty to nurture your kids and take care of them and make sure that they're okay. It appears that the officer's attempts to build rapport are working, as Daniel begins to share his opinions and feelings as the interview continues. What's relationship like with your dad? Not good. He never hit me or my sister, but he'd hit like the walls or you hit like inanimate objects. He'd yell.

Kind of stereotypical. Notice how still Daniel is sitting without shifting in a seat or shuffling around uncomfortably. There are several ways to interpret this, the most simple being that Daniel is experiencing cognitive overload. It's possible that he's focusing so hard on keeping his story straight and controlling the interview that his natural non-verbal communication has ceased. However, this could also indicate that every movement he does make is very intentional, almost choreographed, in order to have the effect he wants. Based on later revelations about Daniel, it seems that this is a strong possibility. What was your relationship with, do you have a sister? Yes.

She's older or younger? She's older. She's seeking habitual liar. When you're a little kid and you see that she's manipulating them and you try to tell them they don't believe you because you're just a kid and you don't know what's going on. If what he's saying about his parents and sister is true, Daniel is quite observant for being so young. It seems as if he has everyone figured out. In addition to the interpersonal conflict Daniel reports within the family, both of his parents allegedly had extensive medical history. In fact, at age 12, Daniel was publicly recognized for saving his father's life after he passed out while driving.

As it so happened, Bill Marsh had suffered a heart attack. Daniel was able to stop the car safely and pounded on his father's chest until his heart started beating again. After digging into Daniel's family history, the FBI agent makes an extended effort to connect with Daniel on a personal level and build rapport. In addition to discussing Daniel's past, they chat about his interest and martial arts, video games, and music. There's a method to the madness, as the detectives lay the groundwork in an effort to get to the heart of one of the most heinous crimes we've covered so far. While it may not seem pertinent to the crime, rapport building is a very important part of the interview process. It allows the interviewee to feel more at ease and more like

they can talk to the interviewer. This makes it more likely that the truth will come out, rather than if no rapport building had taken place. Alternately, you can think of it like bonding or having a conversation along the lines of you would tell your friend something you wouldn't tell a stranger. These are all good interrogation tactics. What exactly? I guess...

Well, here's where kind of concerns are. People who are much more tech-savvy than me because I'm just an old guy. I don't know. I found this thing called Tom. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me about that. On Tumblr.

On your... Song lyrics. A lot of stuff from horror movies. Because other horror movies. Gore. Pretty much it. Just music and scary stuff. These admissions that he enjoys horror movies and gore don't really make Daniel look good.

In addition, his qualifying statement, pretty much it, likely makes the investigator wonder what it is he's leaving out. Horror movies and gore. Yeah. Yeah. seems like there's like in a way. That doesn't sound suspicious at all coming from a prime suspect. However, it's important to keep in mind that just because a teen dresses in all black and likes horror movies and gore doesn't mean that they'll go on to harm others or act

out what they see in horror movies. While laughing at seeing dark or scary things could make a person appear like they lack empathy or that they're so tough that they cackle at horrible things like a villain in a movie, the reality is they may be unknowingly trying to. cope with intense emotions or situations. This occurs due to a phenomenon known as emotional homeostasis. This is similar to when the body sweats as a means of cooling off. Laughter in the face of something sad or dark could help the person cope with sad or negative emotions. It's very possible that Daniel may not know how to cope with difficult emotions, or he may be

hypersensitive to intense emotions. see it makes me laugh and it's just it's the same thing as a horror movie only it's real and since I don't have any connection to

whoever it happened to it makes me feel something I'm just all your stuff and what do you feel when you say it makes you feel something what is it that you're the stuff on Tumblr

fascinated within that and so like you know you can see what happened to them and how warped their bodies are and just kind of fascinating to think, like, what could have done that? How did that happen?

Why did that happen? In a funny pose or something? It'll just look, right, like, stupid. And so, like, giggle at it. And it makes you feel something. Yeah, and it gives you a feeling. The FBI agent seems to be particularly interested in Daniel's feelings and how they are brought to the surface.

While it may seem like a tangent, it'll become central to the interrogation and the understanding of the crime. It is. And, you know, I know that there's all those websites out there, like, stuff that's like into what's going on today. Like, there's, a lot of it is just stuff that's happening in Syria. Holy crap.

This is actually going on right now and no one's doing anything about it. Or maybe. Like, not just what makes it all happen. What makes it work? What it is. Right. Note the posture shift here. When the FBI agent asks about anatomy, Daniel blocks off.

Daniel blocks off with his leg. Creating a makeshift barrier like this can indicate anxiety, and in this case, reveals that Daniel is likely uncomfortable with this line of questioning. So far, there have been a lot of little tells during Daniel's conversation with police. Taken together, they probably generated interest, but what Daniel does next likely convinces police that he's guilty, even though the specifics of what they suspected he'd done had not yet been addressed. So I am not sure how far you and Ariel talked about what kind of led us to you and to kind of look into Dan and everything about Daniel.

He just said that like, you heard like a rumor or something. He didn't really tell me why, me. He just kind of questions, you know. So the rumors that he's referring to are people saying what you have told that you were there. Like, I don't care about people. I don't. Daniel just demonstrated a slew of warning behaviors. When facing an accusation, he responds incredulously,

even smiling like it's too ridiculous to be true. However, police can almost certainly tell that this is a fake smile, which doesn't reach his eyes. He also seems to be demonstrating the freeze response. While he hasn't been very mobile during the interview, his movements have increased as the questions become more pointed. Before, he made small motions with his hands and occasionally gestured when he spoke, but it all stops here, and he becomes perfectly still.

Even more significant is the fact that Daniel doesn't actually deny anything, nor does he exhibit shock or anger at being accused. He simply brushes it off as absurd. Finally, the fact that he feels the need to emphasize that he cares about people... Like, you cannot have anyone around me. I care about people. shows his effort to portray the idea that he's so great, he's incapable of doing something so terrible. I see you need. You have big need, you have maybe more than anybody.

16. It's important to note that Daniel was 15 when the crime took place, but months passed before he was interrogated, during which time he turned 16. I don't know if that's a good thing. The FBI agent could have launched into an explanation of the truly horrific aspects of the crime and how inhumanely the victims were treated. But he holds back and instead tries to minimize the crime. He likely hopes that by portraying the crime as compulsion or a symptom of a psychological disturbance rather than an indicator of morality, it'll encourage Daniel to open up and tell the truth. And what we're picking up on who may have repeated to other is information that is so specific, not just that somebody broke in and stabbed two people, but exactly. Told you that?

Where they were? Well, I mean, when someone comes to you and tells you exact details of a murder and says, no, this guy did it, isn't that kind of like... Like we should think about that, that maybe he was there or maybe he was there or, you know, whoever's telling us trying to screw me over. really doing what's... Why do you think

he has a vendetta against you? Well, like, he knew I carried a knife problem with it until one day he randomly reported me

to the office, expelled from my high school and I asked him why, and he said, I don't like you and I don't want you here. It's interesting how Daniel says,

not intentionally, but then says he hurt his dog when he got mad. This indicates that Daniel may believe that doing something when you're angry

he isn't considered intentional or that he gets some sort of pass when he acts on an emotion like anger. He may believe that his emotions are not his fault or that he isn't at all responsible for how he reacts when he reacts on emotion. Like kicked your dog? Yeah. You know, it's annoying. It ran into me. It won't shut up, you know, just like I fell. But if we talk to everybody that's close to you, Dan, people are going to say, if they'd say that he does me and him were like, we told each other, He told me and I saw some of it. What did you see?

I saw him Joe the cat to death and I saw him beat the hell out of his dog. And what eventually happened with the cat? Here we see Daniel attempting to shift the focus away from himself by blaming someone else who will call John Doe for privacy reasons. This is clever as it serves the dual purpose of portraying himself as innocent and discrediting John as a witness. However, his slight smile and periodic chuckles when he decides. when he describes the cat's death are certainly telling. Likely recognizing that Daniel has been resistant to the interrogation techniques used so far,

the FBI agent tries a different approach, drawing from the reed technique. If it did happen, that was involved, you know, juvenile hall. This whole nice thing, he used to take family and he's told me his story. In the reed technique, the question of punishment is often put forward as part of interrogation, as it can help cement in the interrogator's mind. the suspect's guilt or innocence. For example, an innocent person will typically suggest a strong negative consequence, where a guilty person will offer a less severe option as they're describing their own punishment. However, Dan manages to use the topic of jail and juvenile detention as an

opportunity to highlight his own clean legal record. By contrasting himself and John, Dan makes himself out to be a good kid and more likely to be innocent. Thankfully, the FBI agent doesn't seem to buy it. Well, we have this, everything that I understand, your position. People are saying, you know, this is something completely different. Daniel's fingers are still twitching a bit, but he's remarkably still. This is a big red flag for deception as stillness equates to cognitive overload and having to think hard about the right things to say.

And after you're done with it, you're going to feel. Daniel's denial is soft-spoken and respectful. He's still focused on trying to be likable and calm. However, his body language gives him away. He gives an almost imperceptible head nod when the FBI agent talks about how violence enables him to feel, and the rate at which he blinks drastically increases. And after you're done with it, you're going to feel a complete relief,

a release and, you know, a feel. This is another indicator of high anxiety or fight or flight mode. Both can cause dry eyes and the blink response is a way for the body to automatically compensate for that side effect. It was... This is one of the first times during this extensive interrogation that Daniel interrupts the FBI agent. It's almost as if he's motivated by the approval of a job well done while still actively working

on not getting caught. The agent continues to do an excellent job of boosting Daniel's ego. This is reinforced by Daniel's weak denial. Someone who is truly innocent would be extremely upset at this point. I messed up life because I like scary movies. That means that you're a murderer, is because only would know what was done. That explicit information that you told me about.

Other people said that you told them. Daniel didn't say that he doesn't know the details, but rather that he never told the agent the details. An innocent person should be strongly denying accusations and would be saying something to the effect of, I don't know any details. Daniel is also speaking softly and has a nervous laugh. These definitely aren't helping his case. So there's two roads. You know, you can go down the road of saying, wasn't me, I could never do that.

And we're going to go and talk to everybody you know. and we already are people again who are older than you. Daniel was indeed diagnosed with depression at a young age and had an extensive psychological history that he discussed with the officers earlier in the day. Do you take any medications? Zoloft. Is that mostly an antipsychotic?

Yeah, but they also added on the antidepressants to help with stuff that comes along with depression helps with like, you know, a little bit of calms you down. This is an interesting combination of drugs. Well, Butrin prevents the re-uptake of dopamine and norapinephrine, thus making more of those neurotransmitters available in the brain. Zoloft increases the level of serotonin in the brain. The combination is supposed to also help symptoms of ADHD and improve focus, and Zoloft can help reduce impulsivity. Abilify also works by regulating serotonin and dopamine. This combination of

meds indicates a long-standing, probably medication-resistance psychiatric struggle, as this isn't the combination of meds a practitioner would likely prescribe right at the onset of symptoms. Daniel has a flat affect, but it's unclear if this is just his personality, or if perhaps it's due to all of the medications he just described. It could be that he has a disorder that causes flat affect, but it's also possible that this is simply another sign of his deception, and due to cognitive overload. So have you had somebody else? I didn't feel safe.

Put into no point in doing anything because you just end up getting hurt. You're going to die in the end anyways. I didn't... Your outlook on the world, you said it hasn't changed. That changed? Yeah. I'm 16. Despite Daniel's history, none of what he's describing

could begin to explain the degree of brutality required to commit the crime in question. With this knowledge of Daniel's history of complex mental health struggles, combined with his description of the vast array of medications he's been prescribed, we pick back up where investigators broached the subject of Daniel's inability to feel. And that self-loathing and that just life sucks, it all goes together, feeling that makes you feel alive. The FBI agent is talking about Daniel's attempts as an attention-seeking behavior rather than an actual desire to die.

These drastic actions could be seen as a way to get pity and sympathy or to manipulate people. This is often a hallmark of certain personality disorders or extreme narcissistic manipulation. Daniel also repeatedly positions himself as the victim, which is another technique often used by narcissists and a potential red flag for officers. We've been talking about this reading about it. Yeah. As Daniel's about to see, they've reached a turning point. in the interrogation, the agent is now ready for the real confrontation, and from here, everything is about to head in a different direction. If you already have anxiety and social anxiety, and you're brought in here and people are

accusing you of killing people. It has nothing to do with being freaked out. It has to be doing what I can see when you're telling the truth. Anybody, they can't not. It's the inside of session. And maybe we've given you every opportunity. Yeah, you've asked me. We've given you the opportunity.

Yeah, but I can take advantage of an opportunity. Yes, in fact. And you get the feeling that I'm completely understanding in a person and ask them, not directly correlated to me. Someone gives you facts about a crime and then points their finger at me. This is what happened. He did it. That doesn't mean that I did it.

A big circle of people are involved with this. Okay. Why don't you talk to Detective Paneda about what that big circle is if who's in that big circle? As soon as the FBI agent exits, leaving only the the local police officer in the room, Daniel exhales heavily, like he's finally able to relax. It appears that the agent's questioning was causing a significant amount of stress. Daniel is left with the local police officer to discuss his alibi further and to provide a list of contacts who might be able to corroborate his story.

When the FBI agent returns more than half an hour later, he takes a drastically different approach. A couple things. The detective Paneda is looking at here, you know, check for evidence. I'd like to take your DNA to check it against things. The other thing is sitting down, taking off. Daniel cooperates, either because he's innocent or just very, very sure of himself.

He allows the police to collect his boots and take buckle swaps from his cheeks. How long have you have these boots? Your feet haven't grown from him from Dave Craig? You know, and they got to damn near five, ten. About these. Left with a nice. no other option, Daniel falls back on his default of non-committal and qualifying statements.

Any other places you walk through major flooding things like deer getting hit in the road and you walk through anything like that? Is there any reason that you would have ever put duct tape on the bottom of the duct tape inside? Yeah. Whatever on the bottom? A duct tape residue on the bottom of your... If you ever lent your boots out to anybody, every day? By having Daniel answer these seemingly mundane questions, the FBI agent removes the possible excuse that someone else used his boots while committing the crime.

There were no useful footprints found at the scene, just impressions, leading investigators to believe that the perpetrator had taped over the treads of their shoes to avoid leaving evidence. If they find tape residue on the soles of the shoes, they will have proof that Daniel is lying. The next piece of evidence to be examined is Daniel's phone. That phone is certainly, as you know, whenever you walk around, you hit different cell phone towers, and it pretty much gives an imprint. We can go back and locate where that phone was at a particular day at a particular time. Yeah, sir. Did you know that?

Can I please go home? I've been here all day. So we'd like to take your phone? I kind of need that to, you know, communicate. to my mother and with my friends. Daniel has been in the interrogation room for three and a half hours by now, and this is the first time he's asked to go home.

It's really incredible that he still believes there's a chance he could be going home at this point. It seems like Daniel is starting to realize that he may have made some mistakes as he tries to come up with reasons not to leave his shoes or phone behind. Well, as with your shoes, Just by interest.

How am I supposed to call people or walk without my shoes? Well, you're going to have to worry about that. Investigators are about to share a huge piece of evidence that will likely further diminish Dan's hopes of leaving the police station anytime soon. So there's a recording that we have. A phone call. The police just played for Daniel was a recording of his ex-girlfriend and friend. This likely drives home the reality that he's been betrayed, and the police know what he's done. Police were first made aware of Daniel's involvement when a 911 operator got this phone call.

You can leave whatever type of message you want to leave him. I mean, you don't choose to leave your phone number anymore, or at least a contact number, so they could at least just call you back if they had more questions. I don't know if you'd be willing to do that. I know everything, and it's really scary, actually, because he doesn't. kind of threatened me and all that. I know him. I know every, he told me everything that happened, everything he did, like all the little details.

Perhaps sensing the urgency of the situation, the operator put the tipster in contact with an officer right away. Remain anonymous. Is that okay? Okay. What are you calling to report, sir? The double homicide that happened in April this year. What can you tell me about that? Everything, actually. Okay, and how is it that you were able to have all this information about it? The person told me everything.

So you know who did it? Yeah. Start from the beginning. What the anonymous informant claim Daniel had done was so specific and so horrifying that it was undoubtedly true. You said he disclosed this to you a few nights after the... Why do you think he disclosed it to you, first of all? I can't really answer that because that will give me away. Okay, okay.

Go ahead and just tell me everything that you told me again. I'm a very close friend of his. I know him better than anyone else. Okay. He's a really good liar. He has a lot of problems, and he has a lot of problems, actually. Okay. What do his problems stem from?

His problems come from family. He's always had a messed up life, and I've always tried to be there for him. But then after this, I just, I couldn't, because he's going to hurt more people, and I can't just... What's your concern about remaining anonymous? The reason why, I don't, if he finds out it's me, because he's, yeah, if he finds out it's me, he's going to try to after me or try to get his friends after me,

and I don't want to just, don't want that to happen. It's undeniable that the informant did the right thing in coming forward. His bravery in the face of Daniel's threats is possibly what allowed the police to pursue the case at all. Without his intervention, it's doubtful, that they would have suspected a teenager to be the one responsible for a crime so heinous. Daniel's ex-girlfriend was also involved in bringing Daniel to the police's attention. For over ten years, she's remained silent in regards to her part in the investigation.

But we were lucky enough to secure an exclusive interview. She was willing to tell us about her experience with Daniel and what eventually led her and Daniel's former friend to contact the police. She wishes to note that she laughs when she gets nervous, so any giggles on her part are not an indication that she does not take this seriously. In fact, it's the exact opposite. Even though a great deal of time has passed, she reports that the case is still a constant presence in the back of her mind. When I met Daniel, I was in 10th grade. I don't remember exactly how old I was, maybe 14, 15.

It feels like it was so long ago. but when I met him he kind of he was part of my friend group and he just had the same sense of humor as me and we kind of just developed a friendship out of that that eventually formed obviously

into a relationship he was very nice to everyone at face value for sure if you didn't know him right off the bat he seemed very pleasant very charismatic he'd be quick to get in the conversation and talk jokes and music and all that I don't think you would ever be able to tell just by meeting him that the following events would have ever unfolded.

In fact, she states that Daniel was so adept at hiding his dark side that it did not begin to emerge until well into their relationship. I was actually adamantly trying to end the relationship and he was essentially like coercing me into not ending it until we made it to exactly a year. So I wasn't able to leave the relationship when I wanted to. I started noticing that things were off with him, but it kind of just started off. We were really young. We were kids, you know, we were part of the edgy metal scene. So we were all enveloped into dark humor and just pushing the limits for whatever. And I noticed that he just kind of had this extra darkness to him.

that progressively started coming out as we got further and further into the relationship. I think the biggest red flag and you're probably, you know, people are probably going to think I'm crazy for even staying with him after this. Again, I was young and dumb. He was very interested in watching real life videos of people dying. And I was really uncomfortable with it. A lot of the stuff that I saw actually still haunt me to this day. But again, young and I just kept pushing.

That was like the biggest red flag. And besides that, he would just make jokes about, you know, killing people or the Columbine shooters and jokes about that very, very, very dark humor. He would joke about just any sort of tragic event that could have happened, you know, were people that he would joke about it. It seems the Columbine perpetrators and famous serial killers are often an obsessive. for people like Daniel, similar to how some children who want to play professional football idolize NFL stars, especially if they're similar to them in some discernible way. They serve as people to idolize that are like them. These are good examples of Daniel's lack of empathy if he found entertainment in these

sorts of videos. Perhaps these served as a type of training, as he may have been working up the nerve to execute a murder himself. I would say it stayed pretty consistent up until he admitted to me that he committed the murders. And that happened. We were, I, we were walking the dog in a graveyard actually, just, you know, walking around being edgy teenagers. And he asked me, I believe, if I had seen anything on the news or any updates about, you know, a murder that happened. I had no knowledge of it and he will just pretty much right out and said that he did it. And at first I really did not believe him.

It took a lot of convincing for me to think that it was real. But when he started getting into details of what he did, it became more and more real. And even then, I mean, I was so young and I had never been exposed to something like that, that even after the conversation, I mean, after the conversation, I was immediately scared of him until I got a chance to talked to his friend, the only other person he told. I really did not think it was real at all until I saw an article about it and the piece is matched. And at that point, I was like, oh, my God, he actually did it.

He was ecstatic. He was excited like he accomplished his life stream. Putting the horrific nature of what Daniel did aside, the fact that he was so ecstatic after the murders indicates his grandiosity. narcissism. He only cared about his accomplishment and was riding this high after he did it with obviously no concern for the victims. When he was talking about it, he lit up. Like he was genuinely happy, kind of also in a way that he thought I would probably be very impressed about what he did. It was very much like, like kind of showing off this trope. There wasn't an ounce of, how can I say

this? He was confident. Like there was not an ounce of anxiousness. Like, Oh, I did this and I don't know what to do next. I don't know what to do. Like, oh, my gosh, there was none of that. It was like, I did this. I'm not getting caught. It was a perfect crime. I did this, this and that.

And very triumphant, kind of like he beat the system. Like, these stupid cops, they're never going to figure it out because, you know, I did such a good job. Back in the interrogation room after hearing the audio, Daniel is finally faced with the true gravity of his predicament. It seems to be an effective tactic on the part of interrogators because finally, they get a bit of honesty from their suspect. So, I mean, you can tell that there's recordings and stuff like that. And tell me about the time you said the last time you talked to her was a few days ago. Tell me about how that happened. How did you meet with her?

I went to her house in Dixon and I talked with her. How did you knock on the front door? Wait for her parents to answer and... No. How did you do it? She came outside and we talked. She came outside and then brought me in and we went to her room and talked. How did you get into the door?

No, there's... So went in through the back door? Yes. So, well, I'm going to ask you, why are you lying about that? Or why would she completely tell us a different story about how this last contact went then? Well, I went there. And I went in. Yeah.

How did you go in? Tell the truth. I went in through the back door. Through what part of the back door? The doggy door. The doggie door, okay. This admission is huge, as it opens the door to an entirely different side of Daniel

that he has thus far been attempting to hide. Breaking into his girlfriend's house is a massive boundary violation and demonstrates a complete disregard for social norms and laws, as well as her autonomy and rights as an individual. As it turns out, this may have been the mistake that led to Daniel's capture. So I was on the phone with his ex-friend in my bedroom and we were discussing him. We were discussing how his behaviors were getting more in our eyes unstable. We didn't know quite what he was going to do next.

We weren't on the best, you know, terms. And it was also very close to our relationship ending. So things were tense. We were discussing on our next move. And I feel my phone vibrate while I'm on. the phone. I don't pay any mind to what I first. I continue the conversation with me and his friend at the time. But after a couple minutes, I finally looked down and it's a text from him. And he said, remember when I said, I would break into your house or something along the lines of that. It's not a

direct quote. I'm assuming he had previously made a joke about that, but I don't quite remember. I thought, huh, that's funny. Continued the conversation. And not long after my bedroom door, opened and he walked in my room. It was very late at night. All my family was asleep. No one had known that he had, um, was in my house, obviously. He had apparently, uh, broken in through my dog door, um, my sliding glass door. So he popped the cover off or something and just slid right in there. And I remember just acting like I was on the phone with a girlfriend and I quickly hung up the phone. I noticed he had a knife in his pocket and I just played cool. Ha ha, what are you doing here?

This is all a funny joke because I'm thinking if I give off red alarms like, oh my God, I'm scared. This is not cool. If I get angry or whatever, he's going to attack me because that's not what he wanted. You know what I mean? When he didn't get his way, he tended to kind of get on the darker side.

So I hung up. After a couple of minutes, I texted his friend, but I was unable to. to continue texting, which really scared him. He thought, that's it, she's dead. Like, he was thinking that he was going to do something to me. So at that point, he had called the cops, and the next morning, I was getting picked up by detectives to go get interrogated.

But even though evidence is mounting against him, Daniel makes one last ditch effort to convince the police of his innocence. So this is the whole thing about it, all right? You're going to play hard to get. You're going to try to lie. you're going to try to shade, you're going to try to leave out things that are inconvenient for you, then that's not consistent with somebody who's saying, I didn't do this. Okay, it makes no sense.

I'm fucking scared. I'm so terrified. Then tell the truth. Don't lie. You went in the dog's door late at night, and you went in and surprised her. She had no idea you were coming. and you're there, poof suddenly.

It was a romantic gesture. Is that what happened? Yes. It was a romantic gesture because I always used to say, you know, one of these days I'm just going to show it and I'm going to surprise you.

So if it was a romantic gesture, then why the heck would you just sit here and ball-faced a lot of Ariel and me? I am... You guys are threatening me with... With what? The truth? With getting arrested for two murders.

I am so scared right now. Of course, I'm going to do anything I can to try and say that I didn't do this, including lines of this police, the two police officers who have been sitting here talking to you. Don't get it. Don't get it. Okay? You don't have to take it like a tone all of a sudden. You were being well-friendly, and now all of a sudden.

You lied to me, Dan, and I know that you lied about that. You're worried my wife. Why should I? Daniel's tone shifts very abruptly here, going from near tears. to anger almost instantly. This can be interpreted as more evidence of how manipulative he is. He can flip a switch from one emotion to the next to suit what he thinks he should be doing. He's probably shocked that his lies and other manipulations aren't working

because it's likely that his tactics usually work on people less attuned to his brand of psychological intricacies. I'm not ruining your life. I'm trying to solve a homicide, a double homicide. And if you do it, I understand. and I am there for you to try to make other people understand because I see it. I see it in you. And you're not alone.

You're not the only one. I know it feels like you're the only one, but you're not. Anything send me to the psychiatric hospital. Okay. We can talk about that. I'd rather go there than jail. Okay.

I mean, I'm psychotic. That has to... You told me earlier that you weren't psychotic. Did I? Yeah. Are you sure? I am. Don't remember saying that.

You did. I asked you if you had taken the medication. No, you asked me if what a medication was an antipsychotic, not if I was psychotic. It's made out the medication, and it's technically an addition to an antidepressant to stabilize it is. It is. So I asked you if you had ever had any psychotic episodes or psychosis indicators, and you said no. So have you had any type indicators? So don't lie to me, okay?

we're pretty good at what we do. And I'm not trying to ruin your own. This is the most significant show of emotion from Daniel so far, perhaps because he realizes that the truth is coming closer to being revealed. Significantly, the FBI agent seems to be structuring the confession as a way for Daniel to help himself rather than an opportunity to do the right thing. He's likely picking up on the fact that Daniel will only confess if he thinks it will be good for him. I'd rather be in a psychiatric hospital.

Daniels mentions that he'd rather go to a psychiatric hospital than jail seem to be confessions. He's not so tough anymore when he's faced with the reality that he may be locked up in a place with people far more threatening than the old couple he prayed on. Daniel is weak at his core, an emotionally fragile individual. Then tell us what happened and why. That's what I'm saying. I don't doubt that you may end up. down that road and exactly in that place and get help and get treatment until it's proven unless you can prove with actual evidence that it was me then i'm not going to so if i show you

prove that it was actually you if i have physical evidence that i was you you're not going to admit to anything no if you're going to be it and you're going to continue to lie to me that's what you're saying No, what I'm saying is unless you can show me something that fly out says it was you, and why would I say, okay, it was me? If you think you belong in a psychiatric hospital, then that's because you have all this stuff in your ass, you have all this stuff in your brain, you just want to be outside of your head, but you can't. And this is the only thing that gave you a place of safety. place, a place to land, a refuge, anything that gets you to feel.

Either way, I don't they? Just tell us years ago how many years, imploded about killing the woman that my mother left my father, your kindergarten teacher. I'm going to strip apart. So she was going to, at age 10, what was your plan? Does anyone take out before they took me out? The anger was boiling over. The desire, middle school out, greatest when it got more intense. after almost four hours, Daniel's walls are coming down. After a two-month-long investigation, police are about to get the answers they so dutifully have been searching for.

But even now, Daniel has to make sure that he has no chance of getting away with his terrible crime before confessing. When was the first time you started thinking about going these people down the street? You know, I didn't. I'm thinking about it. I just, which house I should go to? Went on the street, where did you start up that evening? You remember next, where did you, how did you find yourself over?

On the streets, trying to see, you know, to the left their door and I'm not, it takes windows up. I got a hole in the screen, not even a hole, just I heard it, nervous, but I think I do it. The sensations Daniel describes are indeed evidence of excitement. Yet as he recounts the crime, he's able to sit eerily still, and he remains emotionally flat. It doesn't look like he's enjoying recounting the crime, more reliving it as might be expected. Somehow the FBI agent manages not to display any sort of shock or repulsion to the barrage of horrifying facts, which is fortunate as such an approach could shut Daniel down and stop the confession prematurely. What were you wearing when you like a jacket,

black gloves, your mom's house? When police searched Daniel's mother's house, they found the items exactly where Daniel described. However, the soles of his sneakers had also been taped over like they suspected he'd done with his boots. It was unclear if this was a practice run to see if the tape would effectively obscure his footprints, or if he had instead worn these shoes to commit the crime. How about the knife? Yeah. Where's that? It's in the garage. It should be on one of the shawls when you walk in on the left. And what does it look like? It's a bucket roof. You've ever seen the movie scream? Mm-hmm. It's like... Where did you get that?

I found it in my mom's bedroom. It's your mom's? Yeah, I found it under her desk. How long before? A few weeks. How many houses would you say you checked, like the knobs, the doors, and looked at the screens and so far? Then from there, I went, like, back into the back, two-mile radius of my house. This was the unlucky house that Daniel chose to enter that fateful night.

Shockingly, it was just a few doors down from where Daniel's father lived. Inside, Oliver Chip Northup, age 87, and his wife Claudia Moppin, age 76, slept with no idea of the approaching threat. Chip was a World War II veteran who later became a lawyer. Claudia was also a hard worker, having been a political activist during the 1960s. She was described by her daughter as having endless kindness and support. In an exclusive interview with Iwu, Claudia's granddaughter Sarah had this thing. to say about her grandmother. My grandson was everything.

I looked up to her. She was always happy to see me. Always just had a little pep in her step when she was around me. Even as a really young kid, I just looked up to her and I adored her, literally down to the way she walked and the way she giggled and the way she just walked into the room and everybody kind of lit up around her. And so when she passed and everybody was telling me that, you know, your grandson was my best friend.

And I was like, man, she had a lot of best friend. But as time progressed, I realize it's because she valued all those people individually for who they were and listened to them and advised them like she did for me. But she did that with everybody. In fact, Sarah and her granza were so close that she even walked Claudia down the aisle when she married Chip in 1996. They had both had previous marriages, but didn't let the fact that they met later in life temper their love for each other.

Chip's stepdaughter Marita has never spoken to the men. media about this case before, but broke her silence to tell Iwu a bit about Chip in this exclusive interview. He was a strong personality. He was very honest. He was very by the book. He was very much a rule follower. And he had raised six children prior to marrying my mom. He had had all of his children with his first wife. And he was a good stepfather to my brother and to me. he was a terrific husband to my mom and he was a terrific husband to Claudia. And even though they had some of their interests were very different compared to like my mom and his favorite activities, he was just, he was a great husband.

And he loved practicing law. And that was one of the things that made it all the more like ironic, which is not even strong enough of a word, that they would, that somebody like that would take their life. Same with Claudia, being a life counselor in her past. and doing spiritual counseling. It was just he couldn't have picked two more people that would have advocated more for his, like, rights as a human, had they known each other when they were alive.

Merida also shared this delightful story about how Chip and Claudia came to find each other later in life. He was in his 70s, I believe, and I came over to the house one night where he and my mother had lived, and he's watering the garden with a hose in his hand and a cocktail. And I said, what are you doing? And he said, you know, I don't have a lot of time left.

And I didn't know what he meant, but he was trying to segue into how he had met a woman and he was serious about her. And I was probably going to meet her in person very shortly. And then I meet Claudia and we're in the house. And it wasn't the same evening, but it was sometime thereafter. not too long. And I asked her how she met Chip. And this is in, I mean, this is pre online dating,

so to speak. And she says she met him in the man catalog. And I said, what's the man catalog? And she pulls out a copy of the church directory from the Unitarian Church. And it had these color pictures of all the members. And she said, honey, I saw him in here. She was a Buddhist. and she had narrowed down some of the religions that she thought she would be most compatible with. And she had chosen Unitarians as one that might work. So she said, I found him in the Unitarian catalog. And I look at the picture and I said, Claudia, my mom's in this picture. She said, I know.

I had seen him before. But later I heard your mom had passed away. And that's when I decided he's the one I'd like to meet. And so we'd always laugh because the man catalog was the church. directory. It seems that these family members agree that Chip and Claudia live their lives with love, keeping their families and community in mind. As a result, their horrible demise could not have come is more of a shock. The morning of April 14, 2014, Chip and Claudia uncharacteristically missed church. When family members tried calling their house, there was no answer. Later that day,

when Chip missed a performance with his folk band, a family member went. went to the house, but once again was unable to make contact. By that evening, when Chip and Claudia still hadn't been heard from, Claudia's daughter called the police. Together, Claudia's daughter and the police made the terrifying discovery that the back window screen had been carefully sliced open. By flashlight, they got their first traumatizing look at the scene. Claudia's daughter, Victoria, recounts her experience

finding out about the crime in an exclusive conversation with Iwu. Her sister was the one who first entered the residence with police. And we had planned on saying a quick kiss goodbye. Everybody was too tired that we would see her later in the week, right? So went home, just really happy, knew I aced the test, and good night's sleep, and got up for work the next morning at five in the morning, and picked up the phone, and there were 12 missed calls for my sister, which was very unusual.

So here it is, five in the morning. I just woke up. I'm pouring my coffee. I call my sister back. And she's very calm in that eerily calm way. And she said, honey, somebody's broken into mom's house. And there are two dead bodies in the house. And I guess I immediately went into shock because I, I did.

didn't think that the dead bodies were mom and chip. I thought that because Chip was, he was in his 80s, but he was very athletic and strong and exercised and all that, right? So I thought that somebody had broken into the house and Chip had killed them. And she said, did you hear about the double murder in Davis? And I said, I did. And she said, what about Chip and Claudia? And I'm like, no, I don't think so. I think it's in an apartment complex. So she and I are both, trying to Google addresses and look at pictures and try and bring up the article. And then I realized that in the background of one of the news videos, I can see this sunburst design, this iron decor that Claudia had up on the side of the house.

And I see that's in the picture. Now, in the meantime, I've called both their numbers and left messages saying, it's Marita. Can you call me back? And I didn't call either of them frequently. So it would have been unusual that they got a message for me. And then in the course of that morning, which was also the same morning as the Boston Marathon and the Boston Bomber, it's kind of all coming together that it's their house. We got there.

We turned down my mom's street and it was lined with media, with law enforcement, with the coroner's van. And at that point, I was just really intent on finding my mom. because I knew she was in some police car or in jail or something and that she needed me. So I jumped out of the car almost while it was still moving and I ran to the cop and of course the police officers came in and I just was crying and screaming and saying, where's my mother? Where's my mother? And trying to get them in trying to get them out of the way so I could get in the house. and they let me, the big police officer let me push him a couple of times, but then he said, no, you're not going in that house.

There's police officers from surrounding counties from Sacramento County, which is where I live. And they were being all hush, hush, but they were being kind, you know. And my partner, Casey, asked them several questions. And the first thing she said was, is Victoria's mother dead? Which I was thought, why is she asking that? And the police officer said, yes. And I started just kind of crying a little bit. Like it was breaking the tip of the iceberg, right?

And then she said, was Victoria's mother shot? And he said, no. and as she's going through the things, right? Right. And she gets too strangled and then she gets too stabbed. When the police officer wouldn't look me in the eye and put his head down and said, yes, that I lost it. I started screaming in the police station.

Chip's son Robert, however, was subjected to an additional level of trauma at the onset of the investigation. He was later subpoenaed as a witness and therefore not allowed to attend the trial with the other family members, even if he had wanted to. It began the same morning that we learned about the murders. I was in the kitchen of my apartment and my son. It was if we both had started crying. Reeling from the loss, they were blindsided by the first line of investigation taken by police. And we got to cry for about 15 seconds in my phone rang. and it was already the police wanting me to come in and talk to them.

And that's just kind of how it went then for weeks and weeks. It made perfect sense at first that it was natural to look at everyone who knew them and all that. And I assumed that it would only take them a day or so to realize they were looking in the wrong place and move on. And that's not what happened at all. Everything seemed to convince them more and more that it was indeed one of my sons. My younger son, who was the main suspect, there was one night he was literally crying about it. So, you know, it's not just that he didn't hurt them. He never heard anyone.

He had no history of ever harming anybody. I think what hurt for him was that they could even imagine he was capable of doing that. For the first two months after the murders, Robert's younger son was the prime suspect. The family was subjected to multiple searches of their property, close scrutiny from the community, and robbed of the opportunity to grieve. On one occasion, police investigated the firearms owned by the family. even though no such weapon had been used to kill Chip and Claudia. As a result of this particular search, Robert was late to his father's memorial service.

Additionally, Robert's professional image was permanently damaged. His important computers, notebooks, and other items he needed to complete his work were collected as evidence. While the searches were legal if there were warrants, it's possible that the family could bring a civil suit against the police agency for abuse of process, which requires showing the misuse of a judicial process. Cases like this are rare because to succeed in an action for abuse of process, a litigant must establish that the defendant, one, contemplated an ulterior motive in using the judicial process, and two, committed a willful act in the use of that process, not proper in the regular conduct of the proceedings.

Another part of the ongoing nightmare, they did a very extensive search on my apartment. and it took them more than eight hours. They cut out pieces of carpet. They took out a lot of plumbing. I mean, they looked for evidence in all the strangest places. And I thought that meant, now they know for sure there's nothing to find. But what they instead found was an old notebook my son had done cartoons in. And they found one picture on one page of that notebook that convinced them that he had actually drawn a picture of the crime itself.

A picture of a figure standing over a bed holding a large knife with two people in the bedroom. What's ironic about that is that that picture had been drawn years before. They would have seen in the notebook many more pages after that with drawings on them. They would have also seen the same two characters in that picture persist throughout the whole series. They didn't get killed in that scene. They just saw a figure standing over the bed. This drawing was apparently the sole piece of so-called evidence that the police found to incriminate Robert's son. All the same, it was deemed compelling enough to warrant continuing investigation for the next two years.

for the next two months until Daniel Marsh came into the picture. It wasn't until much, much later during the trial that the families finally did find out the specifics of what had happened to their loved ones. When they finally did, it could hardly be expected to bring them any peace. What Daniel did to his victims was so gory that we can only provide this limited view of the interior of the house. This was taken in the master bedroom, where the bodies of both victims. were found. His almost reverent recollection of the crime might be as chilling as the crime

scene itself. I was there. It's finally happening. I just, I didn't feel like I was really there. It was real. And the woman looked for so, and I tried. And he looked over and just as he looked over her, I stabbed him in the neck. You're stabbing her in the torso, she's went back. Yeah. Like, I stabbed her a lot, as you obviously know. It took a long time. It's a lot easier with the guy than it was with her. Where did you stab him?

I started in the neck. And then I just kind of, I stabbed her until she stopped moving, and she was just kind of twitching. I went out to him because I'd only stabbed him once at the time, having him in the torso as well. Even when he woke up at some point. Was she screaming or was she making any nod? Yeah, she screamed. loud, medium muffled. It got muffled because I put my hand on him out.

He looked up. He, like, turned over, looked at me, and as soon as I saw him turn over, just reached over and got him, like, right here. Right here, you're, like, underneath you're kind of... Yeah, somewhere. The right side of his jaw. Yeah, under his jaw.

Did you feel penetrated a lot? Was it a good one? Yeah. They all were in bone a few times. Although Daniel implied that he enjoyed the act since he continued to stab the victims, even after they were dead. he doesn't seem to be enjoying the retelling of the murders.

He's speaking with apathy and low energy. At the same time, he's speaking casually, so he also doesn't seem affected by the memories either. And that stopped him from resisting at that point. Well, yeah. And then he was just, like, grabbing his neck trying to stop it, bleeding everywhere. It was, like, gargling and stuff.

Do you remember her saying anything to me, to you? You said that she was told us that she was... Screaming so. No, she gasped, and then she started screaming. Um, she didn't scream that long after. Okay. Did she say anything to you though? Sometimes people, you know.

Oh, she made me to stop. Like, what did she say? Please stop. Please, please stop. Shockingly, Dan has a strong enough stomach to casually eat and drink as he describes the lurid details of the murders. It's disturbing to know that Claudia begged him to stop. Hearing this plea should tap into a murderer's human side, possibly make them

stop and run off. Daniel is void of any empathy for others, which is why the victim's plea meant nothing to him. Did you say anything to her now? And did he say anything to you? He didn't have a chance. Just went, got his neck, son. Once again, Daniel fails to show any remorse for his actions and instead laughs before recounting how Claudia Moppin begged for her life. Estimate on how many times you might have stabbed him. You're the actual count, right? Yeah. We have to ask you.

Minimum of 20, probably no more than... I think it's going to try to be more. The FBI agent was right. Autopsies revealed that Daniel stabbed Chip and Claudia more than twice as many times as he reported. Chip was stabbed 61 times and Claudia 67 times. And I just kind of messed around just had opened both of their torso around here and one inside of her. Victoria, Claudia, Claudia's daughter, states that they had to go to extreme lengths in order to make her body presentable again.

I was just really intent on seeing my mother. I wanted to see her face, but I didn't know her face was destroyed. So that coroner was saying no, no, no. The funeral home was saying no, no, no. We're going to have a closed casket. And I pulled the funeral director aside and I said, hey, look, this is a really close community and family. We need to see my mother's face to say goodbye. I still didn't know that the face was destroyed. I had no idea.

I said, look, I think that her throat has been cut, but you could restore. her face. And I remember saying that to the mortician. And the mortician's looking, he's kind of looking her eyes around like this, like thinking, can I do this? Can I do this? And she said, okay, we're going to have to get a specialist. So we got a specialist. The woman came. And when we finally did see our mom, she looked like our mom. Against all odds, Claudia's family was able to bid her a proper goodbye, despite the terrible injuries left on her body. cup and the phone. What did you put into?

I put the phone into the woman in the cup and the man. Where did you find those? In the kitchen. What else did you do in the kitchen when you were in? What led you in the kitchen to see the cup and the phone?

The kitchen was on the way to the back where I came in from with the people who I did. Do you remember any other cutting on his body in particular and anywhere else? A lot in the top, in the forehead. What was that?

Is it exploration, curiosity? And they, uh, plus I've never actually stout someone, so I want to see how affected the knife was. At what point at the beginning? No, this is one they were dead. This is after they're dead on that. I'm on lunch. It didn't go how I expected. It was more exciting and intense than sleut in our throat because of the experience, you know.

With Daniel's confession now in hand, police were left with the burning question of what might drive a 15-year-old boy to butcher two innocent people and claim to have enjoyed it. The answer may lie in further memories. Daniel shared from his childhood. Tell us again how far back the dreams of hurting people started. Started around the time I turned 40. This big city that I've never seen before. Whoever was on the street, you know, both, it got to the point where I don't know why,

but I would dream that the people I was killing were the people I care about. That went, how did they occur in your experience? See it being different? We treated for, obviously, I know there has no sympathy or empathy. I don't think what age we. This claim that his empathy disappeared doesn't fit norms. Perhaps this marks the time when Daniel first came to this realization. Typically, individuals with ASPD and psychopathy began showing signs of their illness much younger.

It's likely, however, that there could have been some sort of trauma he experienced at the age of 14. It's very possible that Daniel cared less and less because maybe he had to cut off his emotions for other reasons. When children and teens deal with trauma or other major life stressors, they may cut off emotions entirely. This can be considered an adaptive response in many ways because feeling those difficult emotions could be far too distressing. Did you ever look up on that computer and do research on psychopaths?

Yeah. Why did you do that? I looked up sociopath and psychopath, you know, so if you're not like that. I wish it wasn't that way. It's the way I am. I'm it, whether I like it or not. A diagnosis of psychopathy could explain, though certainly not excuse Daniel's murderous actions. There's a theory that individuals with psychopathy have such a high threshold for feeling emotions

that they need something major to happen in order to elicit any feeling at all. As a result, the only things that really stimulate an emotion like a normal person would feel are very extreme things, like death, violence, or intense fear. Disturbingly, this could mean Daniel's killing just to feel something explanation is not as far-fetched as it sounds. However, soon we will learn about Daniel's current feelings regarding his actions, thanks to direct correspondence with him and his new fiancé. When Daniel was officially assessed for psychopathy disorder, he scored a 35.8 out of a possible 40. One of the highest score is ever seen. For comparison, Jeffrey Dahmer scored 23 out of 40,

and John Wayne Gacy, 27 out of 40, and their scores are considered high. In fact, Daniels scores so extreme that it raises the question if his mental health history was curated to explain away crimes he planned to commit in the future. It's possible that he intended to use this history as a fail-safe in case he got caught, to lessen punishment. With his IQ of 114, which is the very high end of normal, it's possible that Daniel was smart enough to pull this off. However, the only thing we'll know for certain in this regard is that Daniel's brain is wired extraordinarily different from the average human. Had Daniel not been apprehended,

his crimes would likely have continued in increasingly debased ways. Since that time, has it been a building again? Yes. Have you thought about what you were going to do next? Yes. The same thing,

only has a different mask and different gloves, a different jacket. And instead of breaking in, I figured I'd get somebody when they were alone in night out in the street or out somewhere. I just find somebody alone at night and beat him to death of a baseball bat. Did you have anybody in mind?

No. Had you actually gone out looking for someone? Yeah. Did you have any contacts? Did you find anybody that you think would be likely? Now that he spilled all the details of his crime, Daniel appears to have no reluctance when admitting that he would like to kill again. This statement would have a direct impact on his fate within the legal system.

His later assertation that he aspired to be a serial killer certainly wouldn't help either. For now, though, the interrogators have all the information they need. What questions do you have for me? Was I really screwed either way? Mm-hmm. Okay. Good. We would have found all that stuff.

And there would have been the victim's blood. Was there actually DNA in the fact there, though, at the crime scene? There are unknown DNA profiles. I don't know if they're your own. Ors or not, we'll find out. Could be other people in the house that we don't know about, that we don't have identified that we haven't compared those profiles with. If there was, if you think you might have made a small error at the house.

I don't think I did. That's what I was thinking. No, it was a very well-executed crime. No doubt about it. Thank you. For these. Pretty much done now. It may seem as though Daniel is exhausted all potential shock factor, but as it turns out,

he has one more chilling statement to make. However, this one is delivered by request. You mentioned that pretty much everybody you meet, you have thoughts about killing them and how you would kill them. So how would you kill me? There's a lot of ways. I mean, that you've thought so far in a couple hours we spent. together here. Choking you a dust with your tie. Okay. Beating your face into the mirror until it broke and using the glass to cut your arteries, gouging your eyes out and just smashing your face into the

wall. Nothing personal. Meet somebody when you're thinking when there's that time when you're involuntary. You breathe, you don't think about it. It just happens. On that note, the FBI agent steps out for a moment to begin the booking process. During an earlier moment in the interrogation, when Daniel was no longer under the watchful eye of the police, a different, perhaps more accurate side of him emerged. Daniel was brought to trial for the murders of Chip Northup and Claudia Mappen, which lasted five weeks. Despite the brutality of the crime, Claudia's daughter Victoria and her granddaughter, Sarah, both mentioned that they find a small amount of solace in the knowledge that Chip and Claudia died together, as they always wanted. Victoria was once again willing to share her

insight on the experience, starting with the moment she first saw Daniel at the trial. And here he comes, and they bring him right up to me, right up to me like this. If I turn like this, I could have, I could have touched him. And I thought to myself in that moment, this is your fancy, be, get him, right? And I thought, I could just grab him, right? And I could just push him into the marble a couple of times. but I felt my daughter behind me. And she must have known what was going on

because she wrapped her arms around me in this huge bear hug from behind. And she says in my ear, Mama, don't do it. Mama don't touch him. We need to go into the courtroom and we need to be there and understand. So don't do it, Mama, don't do it.

Claudia's granddaughter Sarah recounted her interactions with Daniel's family during the trial. So we went and it was in a little room and they were like, we're going to bring you into a room at a certain time. And we went to go down the small little narrow hallway. And on one side was our family. And the other side was his family, which was a little baffling to me that we were literally three or four in front of each other. And they were teenagers mostly.

Right. There was very quiet and stoic and this did. My son's not responsible. Kind of like face. Like this is, you know. But the teenagers were like just, I don't want to say a typical teenager because it's not, it wasn't typical behavior. It was almost mocking. And they had free Daniel sign and T-shirts. And apparently they had started a website too, a free Daniel Facebook page. And it was an awkward like hour that we had to be with them. The families remained in close proximity even after entering the courtroom. Victoria, Sarah, and other members of the victim's families were seated directly behind Daniel's father, Bill Marsh, during the proceedings. Victoria's memory on the testimony from Daniel's friends is also enlightening. And then the friends got up and his friends were just terrified. Young people, his girlfriend and his best friend got up and testified that when he was as a early as 10 years old was talking about homicides and talking about and actually hurting animals. You know, and I saw him because, of course, I watched him, right, the whole trial.

So I saw him reacting to what his girlfriend and his friends were saying. And they couldn't even look at him. They were terrified. And he was looking at them like, I'm going to get you. I mean, there was so much manipulation. and anger just seething from him during that testimony of his friends. Daniel's ex-girlfriend was required to testify at the trial because she was one of the people that turned Daniel into the police

and was privy to the details of the crime. From her recollection, it sounds like this was a harrowing experience for her. And I really don't remember much of it. It was, I mean, I went into straight panic mode. Oh, I remember is I started unconcernation. controlled, like crying on the stand. And they have, they had to bring out a dog for me at some point. And they had to, uh, actually just take a whole break and let me go for a second and recuperate and come back. I barely remember seeing Dan's face. I barely remember seeing anybody. I know, I know I

looked at the victim's family and I know I saw them, but I don't remember anything about it because it was just such I, I just blacked out essentially. And I remember that I was on the stand. And this is also something that I just feel the utmost guilt about because I didn't know how to answer questions when I was on the stand. I just kept saying, I don't know. I tried to give the most information I could and they were asking very specific things and I was panicking and I just kept saying, I don't know. And I left the courtroom saying, oh my God, I did not help them at all. I did not give them any information to this case that's going to make sure that he stays away. I just kept saying, I don't know. And all I could think about the time is that I wanted to talk to the victim's family.

I remember he tried to plead insanity, and that's what me and his ex-friend were essentially there for us to be like, no, this was calculated, it was planned, and it was executed with precision and celebrated after the fact. There was no, oh, I kind of went crazy and this happened and oh my God, now I regret it. It was like, I took out the steps to make sure I did this right. I did it, and I'm happy I did it. She also had this message to share with Chip and Claudia's families. I would just first and foremost apologize. I would say, I'm sorry. I'm so sorry that you wait so long.

I'm so sorry you spent those six months wondering what happened and all the horrific things that I must have put your family through and that they were investigated. They had to turn over every leaf. And really, we held the key to stop that part of their suffering. And I cannot, I mean, no matter how much I think about this situation, there's always going to be that level of, damn it. Why didn't I just go to the cops immediately? Why did I prolong it for so long?

What was there to think about? I mean, we ended up in the same place anyways. Like I said earlier, no amount of planning will ever make you ready for that situation. That's the one thing. If I have one thing to go back in time and change, that would be it. I've realized your intuition, your gut feeling when you're unsettled, that feeling of offness, it really holds some power to it and some truth. And you should definitely listen to that. Never go along with something you're not comfortable with.

Further insight into how we can learn from this terrible crime comes from Robert, Chip's son. He once again expressed frustration with the system, wishing that Daniel's issues could have been taken seriously when they first arose. I believe the first time that the police were called to the school because of him. The second time they were called that he had brought a knife to school. This was after the words, but, okay, he had killed a raccoon in his backyard, and the school counselor was very worried about how much he talked about wanting to kill people. But by the time the police finally got there, at least two of the people were gone. Two of them had to go.

So the person who was still there to talk to the police didn't even have the direct information. There's millions of kids with problems. There's millions of kids who feel terrible about themselves. But this is extremely rare to have a kid whose dream is to be a silver pillor, who starting at age nine or ten is fantasizing about all the ways he wants to murder people. So, and just to be aware, there's a lot of kids who need help with one kind or another, but there's this very, very small number who just need to be identified as threats. It seems there were multiple opportunities for Daniel's downward trajectory to be interrupted.

and yet nothing was done until it was too late and two people were dead. Daniel was tried as an adult, but as a result of policy changes made in 2016 and 2018, was able to appeal for a return to juvenile court. And they did warn us at the DA's office that he would file appeals. Because of that new legislation, he was entitled to what's called a fitness hearing. A fitness hearing could have resulted in Daniel's case being returned to juvenile court, in which case the trial would likely have to be repeated. In protest, Claudia's granddaughter Sarah organized with other victims affected by this law, and they stood on the state capital

steps all day, lobbying for the governor to veto the law. In the end, their efforts didn't work, but neither did Daniel's appeal. The court determined that because his sentence was finalized before the new policies were signed, he could not use the new laws to back his appeal. In 2018, Daniel gave a TED talk entitled Embracing Our Humanity, during which he discussed his childhood, past trauma, and experience in the prison system. The recording of his presentation has since been removed and was not available upon request, but in the transcript, Daniel claims that throughout his childhood he felt, quote, alienated like I was hated, yet completely irrelevant. He goes on to say, it took me coming to prison to find the true value of human connection. We must learn

to respond with love even in the most difficult situations. However, around the same time Daniel gave this speech, he also allegedly got the wounds he inflicted on Claudia and Chip tattooed on his own body. So one has to question how sincere his speech actually is. The murder has taken it all the way to the California Supreme Court. They have turned him down. So it's been 10 years, of appeals. They refuse to even hear it. So he, we don't know, according to the DAs, they say that he's not eligible to go to the federal courts because he was turned down by the Supreme Court's. I don't know, but I feel tremendous relief about that Supreme Court decision. And I can maybe stop fighting. Despite many appeals, Daniel continues to serve his original sentence of 52 years to life

for the double murders with enhancements for the mutilation and torture Claudia and Chip went through. However, because he was a juvenile when convicted, he will be eligible for parole in 2007. In addition to speaking with the families of the victims, Daniel Marsh was given the opportunity to participate in this project as well. He declined the opportunity to be interviewed, giving this explanation. I failed to see who this documentary would benefit as all similar efforts that have come before it have, to my knowledge, only prolonged and even resurfaced the suffering of everyone I've hurt. I'm not interested in amplifying that pain and exploitation by revisiting old traumas they've suffered through my actions. Ironically, Daniel does not acknowledge

the role his appeals may have played in dredging up past trauma for the victim's families. We also had the opportunity to correspond with Daniel's fiancé, Catalina Escalar. She states that they're currently finalizing their marriage paperwork, and that somehow, despite Daniel's incarceration, the majority of our time each day is spent together, but didn't offer any details on how this is logistically possible. In regard to how she and Daniel met, she reports that they grew up in adjacent hometowns. One has to wonder then if perhaps her house was one of the ones Daniel considered entering to commit his gruesome crime. While contact with this unexpected couple was initially very professional, correspondence was abruptly and unexpectedly severed by Catalina as soon as

the existence of Daniel's contentious TED Talk was mentioned. No, Catalina wrote, we do not want to be a part of this, as we both stated numerous times, stop asking. In what seems to be a direct contrast to how Daniel and Catalina view media involvement in the case, Claudia's daughter Victoria says that she has embraced the opportunities to share her story and ensure that Chip and Claudia are remembered as more than just victims. It was about speaking to someone about it, just like I'm speaking to you, right? I'm telling you the story again. So when I leave this interview, I know I'm going to feel better.

I'm telling you about my mom. I'm telling you about my experience and you're listening. And then I got to the point. where I have to trust you or the media to give to their listening community. I don't want to be the woman on, you know, the internet that said the murder or cut my mother's eyes out. I don't want to say that. And so in the beginning, I was mad about that. Like, this is the life that I have now.

But that is the life that I have now. So I have to deal with reality. And I had to deal with incorporating that into my own life. For Victoria, Sarah, Marida, the rest of Claudia and Chip's family members, and Daniel's ex-girlfriend, there is no forgetting. There is only moving forward and healing in the face of the new reality that was forced upon them. And as unfair as it is, they may have to keep fighting to ensure that justice continues to be served. On behalf of the Iwu team, we would like to thank those who participated in interviews. Thank you to Victoria Hurd, Sarah Rice, Merida Murray, Robert Northup, and Daniels' ex-girlfriend

for helping us provide a thorough and thoughtful study of this unfortunate tragedy.