Extrasensory - Bad Trip | 3

Episode Date: November 4, 2024

Stevenson puts John and Florence’s claims to the test and subjects them to some tough questioning. A visit to the Pollocks’ old neighborhood reveals further jaw-dropping surprises. When one of Stevenson’s associates faces allegations of fraud, Stevenson’s investigations are placed in serious jeopardy.Extrasensory is an Apple Original podcast produced by Blanchard House. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts.apple.co/Extrasensory

A hospital in New Orleans, 1954, the psychiatry department. The subject sits on a hospital bed, dressed in a gown. Electrodes are attached to his chest. Leather restraints hang from railings around the bed, ready for use if required. strengths hang from railings around the bed, ready for use if required. The administering nurse approaches the subject with a small phial of lysergic acid diethylamide. The nurse extracts a pipette and administers two drops on the subject's tongue. The supervising doctor starts the observations. Within 30 minutes, the subject's pupils are dilated and his blood pressure and body temperature are spiking. So you're probably asking what any of this has to

do with our story. Well the substance just administered is better known as LSD and the subject that it's been administered to is Dr. Ian Stevenson. Yep, our professor has just dropped acid and it's going to totally blow his mind. Stevenson feels a wave of serenity wash over him, wave after wave after wave. He experiences a powerful sense of unity, a sense of unity with all beings, all things. And his mind fills with images. Thousands of images, millions of images. Images of childhood, of early life.

And now, some of those are memories, Stevenson's own memories. But many of the images aren't memories. And those images seem to come from another place, another realm, another dimension. And Stevenson's trip doesn't just last a night. He said he spent three days in perfect serenity. Three days of absolute serenity. I want some of that. But when the professor finally comes down and starts to assess it all,

it's clear that something big just happened. Something really big. Jesse Berry. It was so powerful, that blast of consciousness while you're tripping under LSD, that it totally transformed his scientific worldview. Now, our man of science is clear. scientific worldview. Now our man of science is clear. I had no verifiable extrasensory experience when under the influence of drugs. So nothing verifiable. But here's what he does say. That his experiences while under LSD increased my conviction of the dual natures of mind and body. In other words, Stevenson's psychedelic voyage has thrown

open a door, thrown it wide open, a door to a new understanding that the physical body is one thing and the mind is something else. Mind and body exist and evolve separately. And if that's true, of course, it opens up a possibility, a profound, extraordinary possibility, that while the physical body might die, the mind, the spirit, consciousness, the soul, lives on. Yes. Re reincarnation. And this, of course, is why Stevenson finds himself in a seaside town in England, sitting in a living room filled with tobacco smoke, interviewing

John and Florence Pollock and their twins. Because these two girls could change our understanding of everything. They could change what it means to be human. This is Extrasensory, an Apple original podcast produced by Blanchard House. I'm Will Sharp. Episode 3 Bad Trip One last cup of tea, Dr. Stevenson? Oh, something a little stronger, perhaps? A scotch?

Oh, no, nothing for me, thank you. There is one last thing before you go. I think you'll want to hear this, Dr. Stevenson. Stevenson and the Pollocks have been talking for hours, and it's nearly dark. Florence Pollock switches on the lamps in the sitting room. It's 9pm and the twins are in bed. The professor knows he ought to get going. He needs to get to his bed and breakfast before the landlady locks the front door. But he's utterly gripped

by everything the Pollocks are saying. Yes, we took a trip back to Hexham last year. So the twins were, what, four? Yes, four. You remember, of course, Dr. Stevenson, that's where we lived before, you know. Of course. And it was the first time the twins had ever been. That's right. They'd never been to Hexham. We'd never spoken about Hexham, never spoken to them about Jacqueline and Joanna. And the strangest thing happened, didn't it, Flossie? Yes, yes, very strange.

We just can't explain it. So it's 1962. John, Florence and the twins are walking towards St Mary's Church in Hexham. John, Florence and the twins are walking towards St Mary's Church in Hexham, the church which Jacqueline and Joanna were on their way to when that car ploughed into them five years earlier. The same church where the two girls' funeral was held. Together with my dead body shall they arise. The day of the funeral is etched into the minds of everyone in Hexham.

300 children marching from the nearby school in complete silence. The traffic at a standstill. It's devastating. But John remembers that day very differently now. All of the sadness has gone. John might even think that the funeral was meaningless. Because there's nothing to be sad about, John might say. John and Florence don't even visit the grave. Because for them, their little girls are still very much alive. And they're here, skipping hand in hand along the road. In fact, they've never been more alive.

And it's at this point that Jillian does something. She points out the school to Jennifer, which would be completely unremarkable if it weren't for this. She says it's the school they used to go to. But of course, the twins are just four. They've never been to school. That school is their dead sister's school. But yes, I mean, I was speechless. Completely speechless. But that's not the only thing, was it, Flossie? Stevenson looks up from his notepad, his eyebrows raised.

Yes, the school was completely out of sight. Totally out of view. Wow, Stevenson must have thought that was as wild as the time he was on LSD. John's granddaughter, Lauren. So the twins never even knew that they had sisters. They knew things that they should never have known because they've never even been to that town before. I mean, Stevenson, when he heard all of this, he must have just been flabbergasted. This was the most incredible thing. We were absolutely amazed at this.

I just can't explain it. And this bit is based on a press report. But then, something else even more incredible happened. We were walking down Leasers Crescent, where our old house was, you know, before they were born, of course. And I didn't say anything to them. They had no idea that the road was in any way significant. And do you know what they both said? We used to live there, yes.

Both of them said that. We used to live there. John tells Stevenson that on the same trip to Hexham, the twins wanted to play on some swings. And they pointed towards the playground, right Flossie? Yes, but again, the playground was out of sight. They couldn't have known it was there. Really?

Yes, it was Jacqueline and Joanna that played there. The twins never... Extraordinary. Extraordinary. Well, Dr. Stevenson, if that isn't evidence that our two little girls were reborn, I don't know what is. Quite remarkable. Well, uh, I must thank you both for making me feel welcome. You've been very generous with your time, Mr. and Mrs. Pollock. Oh, please. It's John and Florence. And with that, Stevenson closes his notepad, places it in his briefcase, and says his goodbyes. He's got an early train in the morning before his flight back to the US.

As Stevenson walks through Whitley Bay, the streets glistening from all the rain, his mind is racing. Maybe this is the one, he thinks. This is the case. It's utterly astonishing. And there's one thing he knows for sure. He has to meet this family again. He has to come back. This is the start of something. this is the start of something. Four years before he first meets the Pollocks Stevenson's at a dinner party in New York City and this dinner party is going to be a game changer for our professor.

It's the 60s so everyone's smoking except Stevenson and yeah he's wearing one of his bow ties tonight. They're onto the cheese course. He's cutting himself a nice thick slice of camembert, which he's going to wash down with a glass of port. Now, Stevenson has got an agenda here. Frankly, he needs cash. Cash for his reincarnation research, because his university isn't about to give him a dime and without money it's all a complete non-starter. Professor Jesse Behring is from the University

of Otago in New Zealand. Mainstream major sources of academic research funding were just basically off the table for him. They were not options. So he was entirely dependent on private benefactors. So he's deep in conversation with a woman in her 60s wearing a string of pearls around her neck. Her hair is plastered to her head in a rather severe parting. Meet Eileen Garrett, a medium from Ireland. Now, Ian Stevenson knows that Garrett is good friends with a Republican congresswoman whose uncle worked in oil with Rockefeller. So long story short, she is loaded. And together, the two women have started the Parapsychology Foundation here in New York City. However, the dinner is not going quite to plan because there's a problem and it's quite

a big one. She wasn't particularly open-minded to the idea of reincarnation. This was not something that Eileen Garrett personally believed in. So no, she says to the professor, she is not going to fund this research. But then something happens, something very strange. An odd expression crosses Eileen Garrett's face, and she looks upwards. The conversation around the table stops. Stevenson is confused, but the other guests know exactly what's happening. Eileen Garrett is no longer Eileen Garrett. She's someone else entirely.

One of the guests turns down the lights and the dinner party has turned into a seance because Eileen is channeling another consciousness. She's being controlled. And guess who by? The control personality, who was an ancient Islamic scholar from like the 14th century,

was completely convinced that reincarnation was real and said that obviously Ian should do this work. And then, as quickly as it started, it's over. Garrett is back in the room. Back in the room with no memory of what just happened. So Stevenson tells her.

And for Garrett, it changes everything. She trusted the control personality's judgment, basically, and decided to give him the money to go on this trip. And she's like, Dr. Stevenson, you are going to india you can have your cash but that's not the only thing that garrett does she introduces him to an academic based in india an academic called dr hamendra banerjee of rajasthan university jaipur because these two men share an interest Banerjee is also into reincarnation. So when Stevenson lands in India, Banerjee is waiting for him.

Banerjee acts as a kind of translator and guide, and Stevenson is glad of it because he gets pretty bad culture shock. Initially, Ian saw Banerjee as a colleague, you know, somebody that he could collaborate with in terms of doing solid research, fieldwork in this area of reincarnation. And in return, Stevenson tells Banerjee all about the Pollock case,

about the terrible crash, about John's predictions, the twins, the birthmarks, recognizing their school, even though it wasn't their school, the whole story. And Banerjee shares Stevenson's excitement, even talks about taking a trip to Whitley Bay himself.

But the love-in won't last. Before too long, Banerjee will threaten everything that Stevenson has worked for. And Stevenson will wish their paths had never crossed. but wish their paths had never crossed. It's a cold October morning in Newcastle-upon-Tyne. Judgment day for Marjorie Wynne. She's in court for the final time, the most hated woman in Britain.

Don't forget the rumours going round that she killed the children deliberately. So, this is it. Her fate is about to be sealed. She's sitting in the dock, flanked by two female wardens. First, Wynne will be asked to enter a plea, and remember, in the last hearing, she pled not guilty. The public gallery is packed, and the press box is crammed with reporters scribbling away.

This place is intimidating, far more intimidating than anything Wynne has faced so far. The judge wears a wig and red gown, above him the royal coat of arms. Marjorie Wynne looks weak, a broken woman. Again, she sits with her eyes closed for much of the proceedings. It must have been very uncomfortable for her, sitting in there, knowing what she'd done. But, you know, if you do something wrong, you have to face the crime, don't you?

The court clerk turns to Marjorie Wynne. Would the defendant please rise? The two wardens help Marjorie Wynne to her feet. Hilda, Marjorie Wynne to her feet. Hilda Marjorie Wynne, you are charged under Section 8 of the Road Traffic Act 1956 with causing the deaths of Joanna Mary Pollock, Jacqueline Teresa Pollock and Anthony Albert Layden

by dangerous driving and driving under the influence of drugs. How do you plead? There's a pause, and then with a thin voice that can barely be heard. Guilty. Marjorie collapses back into her chair, supported by the two wardens. This means, of course, no jury trial. Next, the prosecution and defence will go through the evidence, then the sentencing. The judge will decide

whether Marjorie Wynne will go to prison. The prosecution barrister gets to his feet. Your Honour, this is an extremely unhappy case, because the defendant is a respectable middle-aged mother of two who finds herself in this court on a very serious criminal charge. The other reason that makes it a sad and unhappy case is that her driving caused the death of three small children one Sunday morning this year. The barrister outlines the full horror of that day when Wynne's car veered onto the wrong side of the road. Mrs Wynne drove along the footpath 140 feet sweeping the children out of the way and killing them and drove on about 300 yards before she stopped. Then a pretty astonishing piece of evidence. After the accident, a witness, a motorist, found Mrs Wynne in her car and asked her if she was okay. She replied,

yes, have I hit something? Yeah, Marjorie Wynne seemed to have no idea that she'd crashed into the children. The barrister then goes through the evidence that Marjorie had taken aspirin and barbiturates to end her life. This is what she told the matron when she was in hospital just after the accident, and forensics confirmed it. Your honour, it is not the least serious part of the case that before the defendant got into the car at all, the drugs could only have one effect, and that was to render her sleepy and incapable of driving. So, let's just step away from the courtroom for a moment. Who is this Marjorie Wynne? What's going on? Well, producer Poppy's been doing some digging, and this is what she's

found. In short, Marjorie Wynne is pretty privileged. She's not short of cash. She comes from a respectable, wealthy family. Her father had been a member of parliament and her husband was 20 years her senior. He was a Christian scientist and when they married in 1940, she converted too. He was a war hero who served in both world wars, a wing commander in the Royal Air Force. But six years before the crash, he died of some sort of disease. We don't know what. Marjorie Wynne also has two daughters,

who, at the time of all this happening, are 16 and 13. They've recently gone away to boarding school. Now, in the year of the crash, Wynne appears to completely change. She becomes very depressed. Before the judge sentences Marjorie, her defence barrister gets to his feet. Your Honour, my client has no recollection of these events, but she accepts full responsibility for what happened. Apparently, Wynne's doctor advised her to see a psychiatrist at a nearby hospital,

but she didn't follow through. It is a most unfortunate thing that she did not accept that advice. She'd been given some sort of psychiatric medication, but didn't seem to be taking it regularly. According to her defense barrister, she objected on religious grounds. It seems that just before the accident, my client had a fit of depression and took the drugs to end her life. But the dosage of those drugs was insufficient to do that. Your Honour, my client's recollection is that she then went out in the car to clear her

head. After that, she remembers nothing further. And with that, the defence barrister takes his seat. All rise. The judge disappears to his chambers to write his summing up and to consider the sentence. To decide if Marjorie Wynne will leave court the way she came in, or leave in a prison van. 1964, the University of Virginia. Stevenson's in his office. There's a large map of the world on the wall. He takes a pin and sticks it in the northeast coast of England. He attaches a label, Pollock Twins.

It's his only example in Europe, but there's a large cluster of pins across India and Southeast Asia. Stevenson takes a sip of coffee and goes back to his typewriter. He's writing his book featuring some of those cases from the trip to India, the trip that was paid for by Eileen Garrett after that weird dinner party which turned into a seance. 20 cases suggestive of reincarnation. Stevenson's pretty pleased with it. He's very pleased, in fact. There are some very strong case studies. Stevenson. Stevenson's expression darkens. It's about his translator, Dr. Banerjee, in India. And it's not good news. Someone has

trashed Banerjee's work in an academic journal. They're insinuating that he's a fraud, that he's fabricating data. Stevenson is outraged. The claims are garbage because he trusts Banerjee. I mean, they spent weeks together in India, right? And if he's not careful, this will reflect on him too. Guilt by association. He needs to close this thing down fast. Stevenson changes the paper in his typewriter and starts bashing out a letter to the editors of the journal. Kindly permit me to voice a vigorous protest against the review.

Recently, we have had a rash of irresponsible accusations of fraud in parapsychology. Unless we discipline our tongues and our pens, we shall spoil the field for the next generation of parapsychologists. Problem is, the letter doesn't work.

The controversy grows. And the claims about panacea get worse. Much worse. These much more scandalous components began to trickle out in terms of him lying about having a PhD, him pilfering material from other publications and putting it into his own Indian journal of parapsychology. So now, they're not just hinting at stuff,

they're claiming it explicitly that Banerjee is a liar and a cheat. Banerjee, of course, denies it all. But Stevenson has to put it all to one side. He's on a deadline, putting the finishing touches to his book. Stevenson? This time it's his publisher, and it's very, very bad news. They know about the Banerjee scandal, and they're cancelling the publication of Stevenson's book.

Banerjee was Stevenson's translator on the India trip, and the publisher says it makes all of those translations, all of those Indian case studies, questionable. Possibly fake. They just can't risk it. Yes, okay. Goodbye. Guilt by association.

This is not good. Now Stevenson has no choice. It's time to cut Banerjee loose. Ultimately, he found it difficult to avoid the conclusion that, yeah, there's something really fishy here about this Banerjee guy. And all of this makes the Pollock case even more crucial. Evidence of reincarnation, not in India, but in the northeast of England, where, thank God, Stevenson speaks the language himself.

More tea, Dr. Stevenson? Oh, no thank you, Florence. Please, do call me Ian. I insist. October 1964. Stevenson's back in Whitley Bay, 14 months after his first visit. It's a bleak autumn day. John, you said there was something else

you wanted to talk to me about? Oh, yes. I was doing some decorating one day, painting the house. I was wearing this old smock to protect my clothes. Very plain old thing it was. Yes, it was my smock, actually. I used to wear that smock when I helped John on his milk round. Now, of course, the twins weren't born when I had the milk round.

And they'd never seen that smock before. And do you know what Jennifer said to me? Why are you wearing Mummy's coat? That's what she said. But of course, Jennifer had never seen me in that coat. Never. So, how could she have known that was Florence's smock and not mine? It was from before they were born, when Jacqueline and Joanna were alive. That is so interesting.

Okay, um, John, there's something I had in my notes from last time, and I wanted to ask you about it. Something about brushing hair? Oh, yes, correct. Joanna and Jacqueline loved combing and brushing other people's hair, especially mine, and, well, the twins started doing that as well. They like combing my hair as if it's the most natural thing in the world. Hmm. That's a very intriguing behavioral consistency.

Just noting that down. Anything else like that? Yes, yeah. The way Jennifer holds her pen. She holds it in her fist, and that's exactly how Jacqueline used to hold her pen. Isn't it, Flossie? Yes, that's right.

Hmm. Thank you, Florence. And, John, Just recording that observation. Also, the way Gillian walks, her gait, the way she holds herself, it's exactly the same as Joanna walked. Sort of a splay-footed, you might say. Then the Pollocks mention something which really makes Stevenson lean in, because it has strong echoes of other cases he studied. The twins act very strangely around cars, Dr. Stevenson. Yes, I mean, they're much more scared of the road than other children their age, I'm sure of it. You mean when they're crossing the road? Yes. Well, I remember Joanna and Jacqueline were very careless. Very careless.

And not so the twins. Not Jennifer and Jillian. No. No, they always stop. Always hold my hand. Very, very careful. I see. And remember, of course, they know nothing about the accident. Of course. And there's something else we haven't told you about yet. Something which happened close to here. The twins were playing in a little alleyway nearby. It's enclosed. A dead end.

There's a car parked nearby. And the driver gets into the car. Well, I'm in the house, and I hear this hysterical screaming. Absolutely hysterical, it was. And I go outside, and the twins are cowering in the corner, holding on to each other as if their lives depended on it. They were absolutely petrified. And the car wasn't close.

It wasn't very close. Interesting. Fascinating. Yes, well, Florence, John, I can tell you this is totally consistent with other cases I've come across. Totally consistent. Carol Bowman is very familiar with Stevenson's work. In about a third of his cases, the children had phobias relating to the way they died. And most children remember traumatic deaths.

The trauma is very potent. Carol's an author and therapist known for researching cases of reincarnation. And for Carol, it's also personal. She can relate to all of this because she's been through it with her son back in the late 80s. We had been to fireworks display on July 4th. to fireworks display on July 4th. And he became absolutely hysterical when the loud booming sounds began. And I said, what's wrong?

He said, those loud sounds scare me. So Carol speaks to a hypnotherapist friend who asks her son, tell me what you see when you hear the loud sounds that frighten you. So when he started saying, I'm a soldier, I'm crouching behind a rock. I have a long gun with a sword at the end. I have a uniform on. It's ripped and dirty. There's smoke everywhere. He was speaking in the first person. It was like, whoa. You get that electric, goose bumps feeling.

You know, you're in new territory. And I had no idea that a child could remember previous lives. Carol gets interested. Very interested. His session for me was life-changing. And I started pursuing this. I would ask parents at my kid's school, has your kid ever said anything about a past life? And I found that people had stories about their two, three or four-year-old talking about a past life and

they didn't really know what to do with this information. Carol starts writing about it and then she discovers Stevenson's work. I was finding the same patterns that he did in his 40-plus years of research and documenting these cases from around the world. And Dr. Stevenson did amazing work in this field. He really set the standard, and that was his mission, to show that these memories could be verified. John, Florence, there's something very important I need to ask you, and I want you to think very carefully before you answer, and answer very honestly, please.

Have either of you ever discussed reincarnation, the idea of reincarnation with the twins? No, never. Not at all, Dr. Stevenson. Never? Never. And is it possible that they might have overheard you speaking

about reincarnation? No, we're very careful about that. We never discuss reincarnation, never. we're very careful about that. We never discuss reincarnation. Never. And we never discuss the crash. All rise. The judge enters the courtroom. This is the moment.

Is Marjorie Wynne going to jail? Be seated. Will the defendant please stand? The judge turns to Marjorie Wynne, I am quite satisfied that your judgment and reasoning powers were very seriously impaired by the mental illness from which you were suffering on this tragic day. Any sentence that I pass cannot bring back those unfortunate children who died that morning. I am quite satisfied that your responsibility for these tragic events was much diminished. The courtroom falls completely silent as the judge prepares to pass sentence.

The courtroom falls completely silent as the judge prepares to pass sentence. The reporters in the press gallery sit with their pens, hovering over their notebooks. I sentence you to a total of three years probation. Furthermore, you are banned from driving a motor vehicle for a total of seven years. Remember that the two little girls who died, Joanna and Jacqueline, are Lauren's aunties. Though they died long before Lauren was born. I had no idea what the truth was. I hadn't ever looked into it. So yeah, I mean, hearing it now is a shock because I thought anyone would think that she would have got more than, you know, just a driving ban.

That's absurd. This was in the 50s and i just think times were very different then and i think if she had the right connections the judge may have gone easy on her mrs winn you will submit to the direction of your probation officer as to the times and occasions when you must seek advice and treatment as prescribed by a consultant psychiatrist. This case is concluded. All rise. It's not fair. It makes me really angry. I can't forgive her. I don't have any sympathy for her.

I hope she felt remorse. I hope she felt guilt and devastation to what she'd done. She deserved to have all that hatred thrown at her because she had killed three little innocent children. So all of those people writing poison pen letters to Marjorie Wynne feel outraged. A driving ban for killing children? No, they think Marjorie Wynne should

go to prison for a very, very long time. This is all a massive injustice. Now, maybe John Pollock sees an injustice too, but a very different injustice to the one everyone else sees. And the injustice John sees is this. The court have just convicted an innocent woman. Marjorie Wynne isn't guilty. Because his two little girls aren't even dead. They're alive. John, Florence and the twins are there to wave Stevenson off as his train leaves Whitley Bay Station back to London. From there, he's going to catch his flight to the US.

Stevenson takes his seat and goes through his notes. He mulls over everything he's heard from the Pollocks. He feels there's more he wants to find out, but he wants to come back to Whitley Bay. But what does he make of it all? And remember, at the end of the day, Stevenson prides himself on being a man of science. He's not interested in faith or belief.

All that he's interested in is science. Hard, scientific evidence. Without that, he knows that he'll never convince his colleagues. He'll always be a laughingstock. And what Stevenson wants more than anything in the world is to be taken seriously. So he approaches everything that the Pollocks have said with a kind of scepticism.

He weighs it all up, puts it under the microscope, really scrutinises it. Does Stevenson buy what the Pollocks have been telling him? The birthmarks, the dolls, the recognition of places the twins had never been to, the school, the playground, the house, the phobia of cars, the similarities in build and behaviour. Does Stevenson think any of it is true?

Or are they just making it all up? Are the Pollocks just cranks? Well, Stevenson comes to a very decisive conclusion. He says that the Pollock twins provide some of the strongest evidence known to me in favor of reincarnation. So yeah, Stevenson buys it. He buys all of it.

The Pollocks are telling the truth. Stevenson is pretty confident that the Pollock twins are their dead sisters reborn. The only question now is this. Will the world agree? You've been listening to Extra Sensory, an Apple original podcast produced by Blanchard House and hosted by me, Will Sharp.

The producer is Poppy Damon. Extra Sensory is written by Lawrence Grizzell. Additional production by Saren Jones. Original music by Daniel Lloyd-Evans, Louis Nank, Manel and Toby Matimong. Sound design and mix engineering by Vulcan Kisseltug and Daniel Lloyd Evans. The part of John Pollock was played by Peter Peverley, Florence Pollock by Jasmine Hyde and Dr Ian Stevenson by Mark Arnold. The Pollock children are played by Francisco and Edie Paibola and Stevie Pye. Other parts by Jasmine Hyde, Mark Gillis, Ben Fox and Saul Boyer. Research by Alan Sargent.

Fact-checking by Jesse Baring and Karen Walton. Our managing producer is Amika Shortino-Nolan. The creative director of Blanchard House is Rosie Pye. The executive producer and head of content at Blanchard House is Lawrence Griissel.