Extrasensory - Dead Reckoning | 4

Episode Date: November 11, 2024

A film crew arrives to make a major TV documentary about the Pollocks, but the producer suspects the twins are holding something back. Stevenson’s big benefactor dies, leaving him questioning whether he can afford to continue his research. And a terrible tragedy blows the Pollock family apart.Extrasensory is an Apple Original podcast produced by Blanchard House. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts.apple.co/Extrasensory

St Mary's Walk, Scarborough, autumn 1978. Everyone on the street comes out to look. On the side of the trucks, in multicoloured lettering, it says, London Weekend Television, one of Britain's biggest TV companies. John's inside the house, adjusting his cravat. Florence is spraying her hair. The twins are now 21, and the family have moved here a while ago,

to another seaside town. Guys go in and out of the vans, carrying endless bits of kit, cans of film, lenses, lighting rigs, cables, boom poles. There are still only three TV channels in the UK, so this is a massive deal. And the show will air on a Sunday night, which means a huge audience. The producer is a young guy in his 20s called Michael Chaplin. He's new to the job and wants to make his name with a big scoop. And he's got one. The first ever TV interview with the Pollocks.

Michael hears about the story from his wife's family. They're from Hexham and still talk about that terrible crash that killed Jacqueline and Joanna. You know, it was a big event and the feelings about it were still quite raw. And they all said, you know, what a terrible thing it was. You know, its ripples continued to spread outwards as far as the 70s. The crew set up in the living room first. A set-piece interview with John and Florence in front of the bright white lights. They're still using old-fashioned film.

And as soon as the camera starts rolling, something strikes Michael straight away. Something very surprising. There were certainly not two normal grieving parents. This is kind of strange, Michael thinks, given the sense of loss still felt in Hexham. John and Florence's attitude just seems unusual. They were at peace is one way of putting it. They weren't suffering, it seemed to me, because of their belief that the twins were indeed reincarnated. They were at peace, really. They really were. So John and Florence tell their story. They go through all the evidence and then the crew relocate to the girls' bedroom.

They reload the camera and they start filming. And there's one shot that Michael knows he has to get. He steals himself, turns to Jennifer and asks the question. Jennifer looks at her dad in the corner of the room and John nods. She takes a deep breath and lifts the bottom of her blouse. The camera zooms in. The birthmark? There it was for all to see. The birthmark. So Michael's got his shot. This is going great, he thinks. But then as he starts the interview, suddenly it's a very different story. the twins are sort of clamming up there's something off michael can't quite work out what it is but he senses that they find this whole reincarnation

thing troubling i kind of took the view that it must have been pretty difficult for them to come to terms with and relate to there's something the twins aren't saying. But Michael can't get them to share what it is. In fact, he's finding it hard to get them to talk at all. You could tell that underneath there was quite a lot going on, but they didn't talk about it. Obviously they were conflicted. They didn't want to say anything that would offend or hurt their mum and dad. What is it that they're holding back?

What is it the twins aren't saying? What is it that they're so afraid of? Now, at this point in the show, I'm sure you're thinking, well, why don't we just find the twins and ask them? After all, we're talking to Lauren Pollock, right? John's granddaughter. Well, we will get there. But it's not as easy as it sounds.

Because the truth is, that TV interview with Michael is one of the last times that John, Florence and the twins will all be together. Something is about to happen. Something that will tear their family apart. This is Extrasensory, an Apple original podcast produced by Blanchard House. I'm Will Sharp. Episode 4 Dead Reckoning. 11 years earlier, New York City. A 62-year-old man is walking down 57th Street. He's just outside the Festival Movie Theatre

when he feels a sharp pain in his chest, a pain which spreads to his left arm. Within seconds, he's collapsed on the sidewalk. Now, some reports have him collapsing inside the theatre while watching a movie. Who knows? Anyway, it makes no difference. A cop calls for an ambulance, but it's too late. Chester Carlson, inventor of the photocopier, is dead. An hour or so later,

Dr Ian Stevenson is in his office. Stevenson? Oh my goodness. It's bad news, about his good friend, Chester Carlson. Oh dear. So Stevenson is upset,

but it's bad news on another level too. Because guess who's been paying for Stevenson's research lately? Yes, his multi-millionaire friend, Chester Carlson. Chester Carlson made a fortune, but he was incredibly humble and almost embarrassed by these newfound riches. He wanted to give it all away. Professor Jesse Baring is from the University of Otago in New Zealand. He was looking to give it to somebody who could actually answer the big philosophical question, what happens after we die? Well, Carlson knows now, I guess. But for Stevenson, it means the end of the road for his reincarnation research. No more trips to see the Pollocks.

No more trips anywhere. Back to his old life as a shrink and an overworked college bureaucrat. Until a few weeks later. University of Virginia. How may I direct your call? Dr. Stevenson. It's an attorney. Stevenson. Chester Carlson an attorney. Stevenson. Chester Carlson's attorney.

He's dealing with the inventor's will. And Carlson has left Stevenson a bequest. Oh. The attorney pauses and tells him the figure. Stevenson nearly drops the phone. That's extraordinarily generous. A million dollars. That's 10 million in today's money.

Thank you. Goodbye. So Stevenson's back in business. He won't need to worry about money for a very long time. He can return to the Pollocks as often as he likes, and he does. But the cash doesn't actually buy what Stevenson really wants. In fact, quite the opposite. His enemies at the University of Virginia would kill for this sort of cash. So they start to get resentful. The trash talk intensifies. The sniggering takes on an even

harder edge. The respect Stevenson's always craved proves more elusive than ever. And not just because of the million bucks. Something else has happened too. Stevenson is at home when he gets a call. Jesse Berry. I can't substantiate this. This is just my understanding of what happened. But apparently he was contacted by a journalist who was purportedly attached to a reputable London newspaper. Stevenson meets the reporter in a hotel in Manhattan, and if the story's correct, he thinks this guy is a heavyweight, serious journo. So Stevenson starts talking, gives this guy the lowdown on his reincarnation research,

the interview ends. The two men go their separate ways, and then the story is published. Except it's not published in a reputable London newspaper, no. Stevenson is in for a bit of a surprise. He didn't realise, in fact, that the so-called journalist was attached to and working for the National Enquirer. The National Enquirer, a super-sens sensational tabloid that loves UFOs and aliens. And now, a photo of Stevenson peers out from every newsstand and supermarket checkout in America

on the front cover of a trashy magazine. The headline, and this part we know is absolutely true because we've seen it. Reincarnation! Will you live again? And here's the bit that must have really made his heart sink. Dr Ian Stevenson, a department chairman at the University of Virginia's medical school, gives evidence that the answer is... And in enormous letters that fill a third of the front cover. The answer is... And in enormous letters that fill a third of the front cover. Yes! The article even features a call-out.

Dr. Ian Stevenson would welcome hearing from Inquirer readers who have memories of having lived before. He promises to treat them seriously and sympathetically. Now, let's face it. For a man who wants to be taken seriously, appearing on the front cover of the National Enquirer is not a good look. But the truth is, whether he likes it or not, the wider public loves his work. I think he always had tremendous popular support

in terms of the general audience that heard of his research. It's just a shame that it's not the public he's trying to win over. People are quite sympathetic to the idea that we survived death, obviously. That wasn't the community of people that he wanted to impress. He wanted to speak directly to his scientific peers about what he saw as the reality, specifically reincarnation. That he had a lot of trouble doing. Then there's one other bit of bad luck. Remember Banerjee, the guy who was Stevenson's translator in India and then faced allegations of fraud, allegations he denied?

Well, Banerjee has taken a trip to England to meet the Pollocks. And it's got a spread in the Daily Mirror, the UK's best-selling tabloid newspaper, and frankly, Banerjee comes across as, well, I'll let you decide. This is a direct quote. American and Russian scientists are interested in my work, which is the investigation of telepathy, because they believe telepathy may solve the problem of space communication over millions of light years. Banerjee's visit to the twins is reported as far away as Australia,

where it gets a massive write-up in the Sydney Morning Herald. I mean, Stevenson must be mortified. His big case has been hijacked by someone who's been at the centre of a storm of controversy. But just when you think the story can't get any more weird, US presidential candidate Robert F. Kennedy, JFK's brother, is assassinated. The assassin claims he was under the influence of mind control and asks

to be psychoanalyzed by Dr. Hemendra Banerjee. And it seems Banerjee actually does it. So now even the Kennedys have become part of the John Pollock story. But okay, the 60s turn into the 70s and here's where our story becomes a bit of a mystery We know that Stevenson keeps visiting the Pollocks but he doesn't publish anything about them and why not? I mean, we know it's his favourite case Well, perhaps he's waiting for the fuss about Banerjee to die down

That would make sense, right? Stevenson's a shrewd guy so he's biding his time waiting for everyone to forget about Banerjee, so he can reclaim the Pollock case as his own. January 1979, Scarborough, and what a morning. The mist is rolling in off the sea, the waves are crashing on the shore,

and it's bitterly cold. The clouds are dark, dark grey. About as menacing as it gets. The big TV documentary has just been broadcast across the UK, and there's been press coverage too. So John, Florence and the twins are getting recognised in the street. The Pollock story is big. John and Florence are running an antique bookshop these days.

Well, Florence is. John isn't really working because of his back trouble. Anyway, Florence has got a rare day off. It's just before 10am, and she's left the house. First she pops into the sweet shop, then she goes to the hairdressers. But while she's there, something terrible happens. She has a heart attack, and she dies. There and then. Just like that.

She's 57 years old. First, Chester Carlson, the photocopier guy, Stevenson's backer, and now Florence Pollock. Two heart attacks that change everything. What are the gods trying to tell us? We will not all sleep. But we will all be changed.

Just over a week later, it's an equally bleak day. Florence's funeral is held at St Mary's Church, just seconds away from the family home. The church stands high above the bay, looking down over the angry North Sea. Leading the mourners, of course, are John Pollock, the twins, and their four brothers. Crowds of people show up to pay their respects. Florence Pollock is loved and missed. Lauren is Florence's granddaughter but

sadly they never met. But I do know from speaking to you know my uncles and aunties that she was very loving very patient she worked really hard and just having a lot of kids in the house you know she probably had to be quite upbeat and have lots of energy and so I've got a lot of respect for her I wish I knew more about her and I wish I could ask my dad all these questions but I can't well, you know what's coming next. I have to ask the question. So Florence's body has perished. That much we know for sure. But is she really gone?

I mean, John would surely say no, right? This funeral is just kind of theatre. A spectacle. Because Florence is still alive. Her spirit, her consciousness, her soul is still out there somewhere. And if she is, I wonder if she finds out what happens next.

And I wonder what she makes of it. Because John is about to do something kind of surprising. Welcome aboard this Trans World Airlines flight. Our flying time to London Heathrow is seven hours. April 1982. Stevenson's boarding another plane to see the Pollocks. He's now 64, and he thinks he deserves a little comfort in his life. So, he's started turning left.

Yes, our professor is now flying first class. Not too shabby. And why not? He's got Chester Coulson's million dollars to spend. Not too shabby. And why not? He's got Chester Coulson's million dollars to spend. Jesse Behring is writing a biography called The Incredible Afterlives of Dr. Stevenson. He was unique in having unlimited funding

to, you know, pursue these investigations in these far-flung places all over the world, really with no strings attached whatsoever. Stevenson settles into the soft, wide seat. The flight attendant offers him a glass of champagne, which he gladly accepts. These days, Stevenson is here, there, and everywhere, traveling 55,000 miles a year. I mean, it really was this sort of breathless journey across the earth.

He was making these frequent treks to India and Sri Lanka, but also Alaska, Brazil, Argentina. Interviewing one person after another, after another, who believes that they are reincarnated. Yeah, Stevenson is really racking up the air miles. Turkey, Lebanon, Israel, Africa, and the Philippines. And most of these were, you know, return visits. What a life. He would go back quite often over the years to follow up with the cases. But as Stevenson heads to London Heathrow,

let's just leave him enjoying his bubbly for a moment because there's one thing that I would say we've sort of been taking a little bit for granted. And that is, what, or should that be, who decides if Florence Pollock, or indeed Jacqueline and Joanna Pollock, are reincarnated at all? So I guess the question is,

well, how does reincarnation even work? It's like a dream. A dream. Ravi Vaidyanath is from the Hindu Temple Society of North America. We cannot forecast a dream or we cannot plan a dream and we cannot program a dream. So Stevenson's really got his work cut out because as Ravi says, how do you prove that someone's had a dream? And it's all under the control of the supreme being. Florence, Chester, Jacqueline, Joanna, none of us have a say over where we go next. It is not my choice, it's the choice of the God.

But here's the good news. We can sort of influence it by what we say and what we do. What Hindus call karma. say and what we do. What Hindus call karma. You have the idea that it is our actions, in fact, that create our next life. And it is our desires that lead to our actions. Dr. Jeffrey Long specializes in the religions of India at Elizabethtown College. It's our attachment to those fruits of action that propel us back into the cycle. But it's not quite as simple as that, because of course, that's just one take on it. The ancient Celts believed in some version of rebirth. There were ancient Greeks who believed in it.

There are Native American stories about rebirth. The Druze, they're prominent in Lebanon. They believe in reincarnation. Hasidic Jews believing in reincarnation. So I think it's fair to say that this all gets pretty slippery pretty fast. Like I'm calling all of these beliefs in reincarnation because there's that sort of shared feature of someone, something coming back in another form. But is it even the same thing, right? I mean, I'm not going to lie. It's complicated.

But here is june field's take on it she's a psychic to the stars and the royals apparently she also has a rather spooky cat i feel that you can actually decide whether you want to come back so maybe we do have some control after all my perception of past lives and reincarnation is to do with people that want to come back to learn other lessons or maybe their life's been cut short in a way that they didn't get to finish what they were doing and so they go on a mission to actually reincarnate to carry that on. But it's possible that things are far more complex than that. We can incarnate in all different forms of life. We don't just incarnate on this planet.

We don't just incarnate as humans. We can incarnate in anything that has a beginning and an end to it. Our soul has ventured into all different places that you could ever possibly imagine. We don't just come into this one type of existence. And that's pretty much what Lauren Pollock believes. I believe some people live on as spirits. I believe some people go into the trees and birds and leaves and, yeah, some people reincarnated. But there is at least one thing

everyone can agree on. Maybe. This is not the end. Definitely not the end. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll be landing in London's Heathrow Airport shortly. And here's something else worth thinking about as Stevenson prepares to arrive in England. I mean, he's a man of science, right? He's doing interviews and experiments to find evidence for reincarnation. But as we've just heard, for most people who believe in reincarnation, it's just that. A belief. People believe in it. They just do.

Whether Stevenson proves it or not, makes no difference. They don't need evidence. For them, reincarnation is real. So people of faith don't need Stevenson, and people of science don't accept him. But all of the criticism, the trash talk, the backbiting, it isn't putting him off. Not at all. You've got to love him. Stevenson's a trier. He saw himself, I think, as this Galileo-type figure. I do think that he saw himself as somebody who was persevering in the face of tremendous antagonism.

So Stevenson's back in England to see the Pollocks. It's 1982, Bridlington. Another year, another seaside town. But John's got a big surprise for our professor. He's got a new wife, a new house, a new family, in fact. He got remarried about a year after Florence died. It's very good to see you again, Ian. A lot's changed, I see, John.

Yes, you could say that. And it sounds like you've been keeping busy. Certainly am. Well, I do have something to share with you, actually, Ian. Something that happened last year. Yes, you mentioned something in your letter. Please. It's about Gillian. I mean, you recall that neither of the twins have been able to remember anything of their past lives since they were little. Yes, which is actually very normal. I hear that everywhere I go. It's only really small children who remember their past lives.

Past the age of seven or eight, they'll remember very little. But Gillian told me something just last year. I mean, it really was quite remarkable. It really was. I'm intrigued. It really was. I'm intrigued. Gillian describes a memory of her childhood.

She's a little girl, playing in a sandpit. Her blonde hair is braided in two perfect plaits. She's clutching at the lumps of sand, but it just keeps slipping through her little fingers. Her toys are strewn about the sandpit. Now she has a broader view. It's a gorgeous summer's day. Dappled sunlight shimmers across the sandpit through the leaves of huge, mature oak trees. She notices that the sandpit is set in a large lawn, lush green grass, mowed to perfection, and beyond, an orchard. Now Gillian's staring up at a house,

a large, detached red brick house that towers over her. Wisteria weaves and wraps itself around the old bricks. And this feeling, this vision, feels so familiar to Gillian. So real. So right. A precious childhood memory. But that's just it, you see.

Go on. Go on. The house she described, the sandpit, the lawn, the orchard, that house is called Wickham. And Gillian never lived in that house. We lived at Wickham when Joanna was alive. But she was very young, actually. Little Joanna, who died. Had Gillian seen photographs of the house, maybe? No, we don't have any. None at all.

I see. I mean, the description was so clear, so vivid, so detailed. How could she have known, Ian? How could she have known? You tell me, John. You tell me. That is remarkable. Really.

I'm telling you, Ian. It was her past life. Her past life. Now, clearly it would be great to talk to Gillian herself about that vision, but there's a problem, and it's quite a big one. Obviously, producer Poppy has been trying very hard to track the twins down. In the early stages of research, we had absolutely no leads, because the twins have virtually zero social media presence. So, of course, Poppy heads up to Hexham and starts in the

most obvious place, the church where Jacqueline and Joanna are buried. So, I wonder if anyone's around, I could ask. Can I see anybody? That's local historian Derek Sim, who's there with his wife, Linda, helping Poppy find the Pollock family plot. It might just be a little bit further because... 55, 43, 55. When did she die, can you remember? 57.

So she was dead before I was alive. So it must be further on. 58, 56. And there it is, the headstone. And suddenly, all the sadness of this story becomes very real. It's pretty devastating to see. An exquisite carved marble angel with its wings spread out looking down into the earth. Next to it, a marble block to hold the flowers, and etched onto each side of it the names Joanna Mary and Jacqueline Theresa. Devastating. But then Poppy notices something else. On the other side of the headstone, facing the plot behind, there's a plaque. And on that plaque, some more

names. They're Pollock's too. And there's one name in particular, with the dates 4th October 1958 to 10th September 2002. And the name next to those dates is Gillian. Gillian Pollock. One of the Pollock twins has gone. She died at the age of just 43. Which means, of course, only Jennifer is alive, or we assume she's alive. We just can't find her.

But the gravestone proves to be a significant lead, because there's another name on the gravestone. Sophie Pollock. And that name leads us directly to Lauren, who you've been hearing from. Because Sophie is Lauren's sister. She died from cancer tragically young, aged just 14. So much grief, so much sadness. So Sophie died in 2007 and my dad died in 2015 and then my mum died in 2022. But to be honest, it all just becomes a bit of a blur.

Of course, Poppy wants to know whether Lauren can put us in touch with Jennifer. But there's a problem there too. I haven't seen Jennifer since I was a kid. Like, ten, eight, a long time. Literally, if someone says to me, Auntie Jennifer, my only vision of her is this long blonde hair. And that's, that's all I could tell you about her. So the Pollock family are not close. And there's a reason for that. Let's go back to 1982. John's chatting away to Stevenson.

But there's one thing that he's probably not sharing. That his new life, his new wife, his new family has torn his old family apart. As Lauren says, I think finding out that once their mother had died that the dad had moved on so quickly and remarried, yeah it pulled the family apart and I know it created a big rift. And it seems the boys, Ian and Keith at least, start to resent their dad. They sense that he's lost interest in them, that he doesn't care. And it's not just that.

John has sold the house in Scarborough, leaving Florence's mother without a home. She'd lived with John, Florence and the kids for many years, so they're angry about that too. The boys all go their separate ways, as do the twins. The Pollock family just, well, scatters. And that's going to make Jennifer Pollock extremely hard to find. you've been listening to extra sensory an apple original podcast produced by blanchard house and hosted by me will sharp produced by poppy damon and sarin jones extra sensory is written by lawrence grizel original music by daniel lloyd Lloyd Evans, Louis Nank, Manel and Toby Matimong.

Sound design and engineering by Vulcan Kisseltug, Daniel Lloyd Evans and Toby Matimong. The part of John Pollock was played by Peter Peverley, Florence Pollock by Jasmine Hyde and Dr Ian Stevenson by Mark Arnold. The Pollock children are played by Francisco and Edie Pimbola and Stevie Pye. Other parts by Jasmine Hyde, Mark Gillis, Ben Fox and Saul Boyer. Research by Alan Sargent. Fact-checking by Jesse Baring and Karen Walton. Our managing producer is Amika Shortino-Nolan.

The creative director of Blanchard House is Rosie Pye. The executive producer and head of content at Blanchard House is Rosie Pye. The Executive Producer and Head of Content at Blanchard House is Laurence Grizzell.