Factually! with Adam Conover - Being Trans in Trump's America with Dylan McKeever, River Butcher, and Sammy Mowrey

Episode Date: March 26, 2025

The Trump administration is actively working to erase the existence of trans people through policy and legislation. But no law can erase the 1.6 million trans people living in America, nor the reality of their lives and experiences. These are real people facing real consequences—impacting their rights, safety, and livelihoods. This week, Adam sits down with his friends and fellow comedians Dylan McKeever, River Butcher, and Sammy Mowrey, who all happen to be trans, to talk about what it’s like to navigate this moment in America as a trans person.SUPPORT THE SHOW ON PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/adamconoverSEE ADAM ON TOUR: https://www.adamconover.net/tourdates/SUBSCRIBE to and RATE Factually! on:» Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/factually-with-adam-conover/id1463460577» Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0fK8WJw4ffMc2NWydBlDyJAbout Headgum: Headgum is an LA & NY-based podcast network creating premium podcasts with the funniest, most engaging voices in comedy to achieve one goal: Making our audience and ourselves laugh. Listen to our shows at https://www.headgum.com.» SUBSCRIBE to Headgum: https://www.youtube.com/c/HeadGum?sub_confirmation=1» FOLLOW us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/headgum» FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://instagram.com/headgum/» FOLLOW us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@headgum» Advertise on Factually! via Gumball.fmSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is a HeadGum Podcast. I don't know the truth. I don't know the way. I don't know what to think. I don't know what to say. Yeah, but that's all right. That's okay. I don't know anything.

Hey there, welcome to Factually. I'm Adam Conover. Thanks so much for joining me on the show again. You know, we're going to be talking about the factually. We're going to be talking about the factually. We're going to be talking about the factually. We're going to be talking about the factually. We're going to be talking about the factually.

We're going to be talking about the factually. We're going to be talking about the factually. We're going to be talking about the factually. We're going to be talking about the factually. We're going to be talking about the factually. We're going to be talking about the factually. We're going to be talking about the factually. We're going to be talking about the factually. We're going to be talking about the factually. We're going to be talking about the factually. We're going to be talking about the factually. Hey there, welcome to Factually, I'm Adam Conover. Thanks so much for joining me on the show again.

You know, the very existence of trans people has been a bizarrely controversial topic in America recently. Trump ran his entire presidential campaign by demonizing them outright. There was that horrible ad saying that Kamala is for they them, but Trump is for you. Deliberately characterizing trans people as scary aliens, as though they were separate and different from real Americans. And horribly, this tactic worked.

Trump won the election that way. And then one of the very first things he did when he became president was to issue an executive order saying that there were only two sexes, male and female, and that the government wouldn't recognize anything else despite all facts to the contrary. So needless to say, trans people are under attack in America today in a very real way. Now, I need to make the point that there are 1.6 million trans people in America that we know of so far. And they exist. They are real people. They're not just fantasies of the reactionary imagination, some kind of boogeyman.

No, they're real people who live actual lives. And now, these real people cannot be sure if they can get passports or safely leave and reenter the country. They're effectively almost being denaturalized as citizens. The Trump administration is deliberately trying to erase them from American society, let alone allow them to get healthcare.

And again, it's insane that I have to say any of this because these are actual people. But in all of the controversy, the voices of trans people have been missing from the coverage. For all the podcast episodes, I hear about trans people. I rarely hear from them. Now, I'm very lucky in my life, because I'm friends with a lot of wonderful comedians.

And today, I'm bringing three of them on the show. Three comedians who also happen to be trans, so that we can talk about what is happening in America today, and how it affects real people and their lives. Now, before we get into that, I want to remind you that if you want to support this show and all of the conversations we bring you that you cannot get anywhere else,

head to patreon.com slash Adam Conover. Five bucks a month gets you every episode of the show ad free. We got a lot of other wonderful community features as well. And if you want to come see me on the road, you can do so at Providence, Rhode Island, April 3rd through 5th. I'll be in Vancouver, April 16th through 17th. We sold out the show on the 17th. So we just added one on the 16th. Look forward, looking forward to that April 18th and 19th. I'll be in Eugene, Oregon after that Charleston, South Carolina, Oklahoma City,

Tulsa, Oklahoma, Tacoma, Washington, and Spokane, Washington. Head to adamkonova.net for all those tickets and tour dates. And now please welcome the wonderful comedians and three of my very close friends, River Butcher, Sammy Mowry, and Dylan McKeever. Thank you guys so much for being on the show. I wanna introduce everybody real quick. Sammy, start with you.

Just tell the people about yourself. Hi, good evening. I'm Sammy Mowry. I'm five five. I'm a Leo, Scorpio rising. I love birds. I don't know why that's what I said.

Wow, birds. I do. River. I'm River Butcher. I'm five nine, which is a trans guy six two. And you know, I'm River Butcher. I'm 5'9", which is trans guy 6'2". And, you know, I'm a stand-up comedian. Adam's sibling on TV. Yeah, you played my sibling on TV.

Sammy, also stand-up comedy. You forgot to say that about yourself. I did forget to say that about myself. I love the art of stand-up comedy. And by the way, if you come see me on the road, Sammy opens for me at almost every single show on our current tour. And Dylan. I'm Dylan McKeever. I'm five five, which is trans woman gold. And it's good to be with all my white friends today.

All three of them. Oh, so this is kind of like a podcast where you interview three white people. Yeah. Great. Oh, telling the trans woman to do labor. Terrific. Yeah. Look, you guys are three of my closest friends.

I'm so thrilled to have you on the show this week. I want to talk about a bunch of issues that are affecting trans people in the news. I just want to start by asking like, how does it feel to be trans in America? That's a great question. Right? No, it America? That's a great question, right? No, it is. It's a great question. It's a great question. A lot of this fucking happened.

I know. Well, I think it's a great question because like, A, well, I'm not going to answer it yet, but it's a great question because people are talking about us so much. Yeah. And rarely do we ever get to say, Oh yeah.

What the hell is up with us? Nobody's asking how we're doing. Nobody really is. You know? People are like, there's, what's going on with the trans people? Where are they? What are they doing?

What are they doing? Should we stop them? Absolutely. Yeah, get on Discord. They must be stopped. Where are they? We don't know. They're on Discord, to be clear.

Sure, yeah. Yeah, so what has your experience been? I mean, like I just straight up earlier, like yesterday, was in Cincinnati, Dayton, Kentucky area, and traveling. And you know me, Adam, I've been doing this job for what, 14 years or something? Traveling for 11.

So that's a lot of time when a lot of bathroom bills and things were happening. I also look different, I've transitioned through that period. And I was like, I don't actually feel that safe, you know, in certain places. Not all the time, because I refuse to like live in fear all the time, because that's what they want to have happen. But like I went into a speedway and I was like, I was like, I don't think I can go to the bathroom in here.

You know, like this is it's it's just like dicey, you know, because you just don't know what's going to you don't know, because people are so whipped up about it. Yeah, you know, it's not it's not necessarily that I'm like, I'm terrified of every single person I see, but it's just kind of like. It's there's just a level of unpredictability that I would say isn't just specific to trans people I would say like you know Muslim people probably feel this way you know it's like it's happening to a lot of people which is people with green cards yeah exactly by design if you happen to speak out for Palestine like you might get abducted from the street. So anyway, uh

It's weird. It's it's it's not just weird. It's like it's it's you can feel it like there's tension in places Yeah, how about you? Oh, yeah, I it's It's crazy to think I just a few months ago. I was just blissfully walking down the street. No problem And now I'm like it's sort of it's sort of like lightning strikes of panic. And then I'm like, I'm okay. Like, I'm okay. Like it's, it's very like focusing in on like the now of like, right now I'm okay. And there's things I can do to like help, you know, there's ways I can speak up, um,

and, and like participate and try not to like, let my mind go into the future. Where, where all the scary stuff is. Are there like material ways that your life has changed? No, not yet. Well, I'm in California. I'm still lucky. Yeah. Um, I am, I already had my passport updated, but that'll like come down the line where

they're changing everyone's passports back to your gender at birth, which has happened to a lot of friends. But it's happening quickly. Like I said, two months. Yeah, there's a huge amount of uncertainty right now about what's going to happen. Like I know some I won't say who to predict their, you know, their privacy, but who has an ex on their passport and was like, I don't know if I can travel internationally right now. Like I'm actually not sure what could happen at the border. And my first reaction was, you're a passport holder, you'd probably be fine,

but can I say that with certainty? Like, and the uncertainty is part of the problem. You know what's crazy is, like, some trans women friends that have had it changed back to an M, that's like, makes them feel unsafe. You know, where like, it's like someone might, you know, target me at TSA. But mine still says F.

And I also am worried about being targeted, as like, if they somehow find out that I had a change, they'll be like, you know, this is fraud, and get in the bus or whatever, you know? But then the problem is, and Samia, I wanna ask you the same question in a second, but just stay on this for a moment. The problem is, and same here, I want to ask you the same question a second, but just stay on this for a moment.

The problem is like, okay, if you're a trans woman and your passport's been changed back to M, that doesn't mean that you're okay, because you could be at a border and they'd be like, hold on a second, your passport does not match your appearance. Yeah. Yeah. Who the fuck are you? It won't even match the appearance on the passport. Right. Right. You know what? It won't even match the appearance on the passport. Right.

You know what? It won't even match the photo. Because like if, you know, like my passport has an M on it, my birth certificate in Ohio has an F on it. So if I think it's up for in 2032, who knows what's gonna happen in between then. Imagine if I have an F on my passport with this face on that passport.

Yeah. They're gonna be like, what's going on? But at the same time, they're gonna know what's going on because they're talking about this shit, who the TSA, but they're also union breaking the TSA. So who knows? They might be radicalized by the time, you know what I mean? So I don't know, but you know what,

can I break in with a little mini history thing about the like gender markers on IE? We did not have gender markers on identification until the seventies. Wow. This is not, this is, that's a very new thing. We, here's what's wild. Take me back.

We don't need them on there. Yeah. It was actually a xenophobic thing. Here's what's wild. Take me back. We don't need them on there. Yeah. It was actually a xenophobic thing. That's why we have it on there. Because in other countries, think about Japan, you know, or like South Korea or something, where gender presentation is not as, you know, binary as it is in the United States. Right.

And so we're like- Not as flamboyant, not as in your face. It's not as polar. Yeah. You know, polar opposites, which I have a thought on that too. But like, you know, there's a little more similarity, right? In other- In dress or whatever.

Cultures and not just those cultures, those is just what came to my mind. But this country was like, how can we sort out immigrants more? Yeah. And then the women's movement at the time, the white women's movement at the time was like, yeah, feminism, let's put Fs on there. You know, let's, you know.

Where did that get them? Exactly. Because it was actually like, you know, anti-trans stuff at the time too. So we don't... The actual move, I think in a long-term movement in terms of this specific thing, is that we actually don't need gender markers on our identification at all. Yeah.

I agree. Because that would allow trans people, we just wouldn't have to deal with it at all, which is why they won't take it off, you know? But like, we actually don't need that on there. Yeah, the policy change to switch everyone's passports back, et cetera, doesn't make the task of identifying people for security purposes easier at all. Neither does the gender marker whatsoever.

It just makes things more difficult for every trans person in America. Sammy, what is your experience? Well, I mean, to stay on the same subject, I just changed my name and I just got it, like, you know, changed and it was before Trump got inaugurated again. And there are different reasons when you go into the courthouse, you can do it for marriage

or divorce or whatever, or gender reasons. And for gender reasons, you don't have to have your name in the paper, like your dead name in the paper for a while. So I was just like, gender reasons, it's fine. So they make you say why you're changing your name. Yes, and I was really worried that when I went back to the court to get the like declaration of my name change,

that it would say, and this is you are now Sammy Mowry for gender reasons. And I was worried that like, when I go to update my passport, like that would be like something they can find out and that is still an unknown, you know? And I didn't change my gender marker for that reason also. So hopefully I'll be fine. You know, it's just like, it's like,

just like what y'all are saying, it's just like the unknown, the uncertainty is like part of the point, you know? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, there's sometimes I'll go into like a airport bathroom and I'll be like, beanie, mask. And then people don't really know what's going on necessarily. I don't have tits anymore.

Like, I don't know, you know, like anything could be happening. So I'm like, but I haven't been yelled at yet. We'll see. I get he-him'd in Kentucky basically only. In Kentucky, yeah. Okay, I'm surprised. Yeehaw, I guess. Yeehaw, baby.

Yeah. I mean, the sort of cruelty, or at least like deliberate fucking with you, of this policy, I can't imagine what it feels like to have your own government, federal government, go after you explicitly in this way. I assume it feels bad. I feel like I'm just traumatizing all of you by saying, how does it feel like to be under attack? No, it feels good. No problem.

We like it. And all trans people like it. I know you like attention. I mean, not to be, but this is, it's the fact that we've even been able to do what we've been able to do is crazy. You know, like this is a very recent happening. Like trans people are living, that we are able to live the way that we're living. So I have no, this is not a surprise to me, you know? Like we're the tip of the spear when it comes to this stuff because it is such a small population

and it's a small population because of this stuff. Like that's why, it's to keep people from coming out. But like the problem, the problem for them is that it's too late. Like it doesn't matter if they do all this stuff to us because it's not gonna change that like I've never I Got a lot of like joy out of getting my IDs and stuff like that Like I really did but it was already there, you know So they can't actually take anything away and I'm not trying to diminish the like cruelty and like chaos that it is creating for

families and everybody, but I don't know. The government doesn't make me a person, you know. Oh, yeah, I never considered that. Toothpaste out the tube, baby. Was that? Yeah. Toothpaste out the tube. I mean, you know what I mean?

All three of you have already done the hard thing, right? Yeah, oh yeah. Transitioning and coming out. I mean, River, I knew you as you transitioned you were, I think, my first close friend to transition while I was knowing them and it was like, obviously very difficult. Yeah. As an experience. Yeah. Is, so do you feel like you've sort of already been through it? You know, like for sure, regardless of what they throw at you. Hey, I already fucking did the hard thing. 100 percent. When you start?

Yeah, I mean, physically was 2000. Twenty seventeen, I started using they then pronouns. And then in 2020, did I say 2000? Oh, my God. That's not what I meant before the towers. Please take that back. I was not 17 years old. Back to one, baby. Back to one.

Ask the question again. When did you start, River? Physically, I started transitioning in 2020. And I started using they, them pronouns like 2017. So I was trying to understand what was going on there. But then in 2020, and I started taking testosterone, I was like, oh yeah, I'm a dude. Pandemic, did that help?

I think so. Okay. Because I always use stand, I was like, oh yeah, I'm a dude. Pandemic, did that help? I think so. Because I always use standup comedy as an, my brain used standup comedy work, whatever, as a reason why I couldn't do any of those. And it was the vaccine, wasn't it? RFK's right, the vaccine made me trans. No. That's a joke, Robert, it's a joke.

I can tell you who made me trans, I will tell you. It's Leah Thompson in Back to the Future Part II, which came out in 1989. I saw that movie in 1989, I will cut to the chase. There's a scene in that movie, Marty goes to the future, he has to go back to 1985, it's an alternate 1985. Lorraine Baines has, McFly has married Biff Tannen, the the villain of the film. They get into a fight, she's dressed up like Scarface, she has a huge boob job. It's like a big joke that she has this huge ridiculous boob

job and she says to Biff, he says, who's gonna pay for your plastic surgery Lorraine and all this other stuff and she says, oh you were the one who wanted me to get these things. Well you want them back? You can have them. Seven years old in a movie theater in Akron, Ohio, I went, you can do that? It was like, it blew my mind. I was like, you can get rid of them? You can give them back? And I thought about it for the rest of my life. So did you get bigger tits first?

Yeah. I took a Schwinn bike pump and was like, that's great. Until they popped and that's top surgery. That's how top surgery works. That is precisely right. Let the air out the nipples. It's a little too full. I think you gotta try them all out. Try all the sizes before you settle.

Well Dylan, when did you start? I started in 2015. I'm the elder here, which feels surprising. And we honor you. Thanks. Right before the first Trump administration. So there was panic then too, sort of for me. And I guess the rest of the trans community. I think I came out in 2015

and I had been a year on hormones already by then. And it's, I don't know, it feels like such a boring part of my life at this point, where I don't think about it unless like, yeah. Like, yeah, like it's funny to be in this room, I think, because I'm like, you know, I love talking about trans stuff, but there's so many other things going on, you know? Totally, yeah. We're not talking about any of those other things.

Thank you. We're just talking about this one thing about you, really hyper-focusing on it, making you defend it, defining you by it in a really blunt way. And I like that it says, guys making us defend our humanity today. Defend your position. And he's white.

He's being straight. This is a Charlie Kirk situation. Yeah. Defend your rights. Thank you for giving us access to defending our rights. Change my mind. Just kidding. Okay, well, that's a good pivot

now that you mentioned Charlie Kirk, because the backslide among so-called liberal society on gay issues, specifically trans issues, has been really shocking to me when it was, like, River, you're talking about the bathroom bans in North Carolina and the national response to that and like Coca-Cola or whatever, the NBA, all this shit. NCAA. NCAA, thank you, excuse me. Yeah, you're welcome.

Was like pulling out of North Carolina and now fast forward a couple of years and our fucking governor is backtracking from trans issues in his podcast where he only, his podcast used to be called oops all bigots. He's exclusively interviewing bigots. It's bizarre. Um, we live in this state. What the fuck? Why is our governor such a dumbass? Frickin Harvey Dent Asshole I had to when I used to work at the Dodger Stadium vaccine site And there was a video on fucking loop of him being like hello, California. Hello, California. Hello, California I hate it in that I hate now what a weird loser But this is a guy who made his podcast away except for yours and, except for yours and Caleb Heron's on Headgum.

It's a great podcast. Headgum Studios. Pass guest me. But Gavin Newsom specifically became nationally famous for doing gay marriages in San Francisco as mayor, sort of semi-illegally or something under California law. And now he's talking to right wingers who are like, and you know, he's backtracking away. He says, you know, he thinks trans women in sports

is an issue of fairness, but also he's allowing Charlie Kirk on this podcast to like say a bunch of bigoted stuff, misgender people, and not correct them at all. But meanwhile say, oh, I'm big on LGBT rights. It's kind of a bizarre spectacle. Like what's your reaction? Can I just say, me thinking that a man named Gavin

wouldn't betray us. It's kind of on us. Yeah, that's on us. That's kind of on us. That's on us. That's kind of our fault. Absolutely. For sure.

Ben should be named Gavin. Yeah, with that haircut. What are we thinking? No, he really does look like Harvey Dent before the acid, to me. Yeah. No, he really does look like Harvey Dent before the acid to me Yeah, no, he looks like an 80s. He's a villain. He's got he's got the slick back hair. It's like American Psycho Yeah, well, he does look like American Psycho. I bet his morning routine is just as scary I mean he used to date Kimberly Guilfoyle like he's in with these people like it's not all this is is just like

Where's the audience? Yeah, you, like those guys that he's bringing on have a bigger audience than he does in podcasting. So it's just, you said it was a pivot to this conversation. He's just pivoting to where the money is. You know, like, so, because I just saw before I came here that like all the sponsors for like San Francisco Pride have not all of them, but many of them have pulled out like something like $300,000. What will we do without Chase Bank? for like San Francisco Pride have not all of them, but many of them have pulled out. Oh my God.

Like something like $300,000. What will we do without Chase Bank? I know, like all these terrible flows, like Diageo and like all these like liquor brands and stuff. But I ultimately think it's like good, because like, see you later. You know what I mean? Like this, you weren't supporting us anyways.

All of this stuff has always been conditional, you know? By target. It's just funny to consider that they're like, to rewind the tape a little bit and realize like, oh, we were like worth money to them five years ago. Like, oh, whoops, you bought our t-shirts. Folks, if you've listened to the show before, you have heard me talk about delete me. I love delete me.

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I mean it's it's really easy to be cynical about those big brands, and I am, and like it's bullshit and that's not, even I know that that's not what like pride is about, right? It's a political act to be like, here's who I am, I'm proud of it, fuck you. It's a revolutionary political act. But at the same time, it's also like indicative of this like broad trend of like in American society against gay rights, period. It's bizarre to see. Yeah, you know, all these attacks on trans people would have you thinking that we're

just, like, full of eggs, you know? Yeah. Like, you know, like... Chicken eggs? Yeah, yeah, yeah, chicken eggs. Driving the prices up? Yeah, yeah, well, like, there's like, like, this is... Oh, that kind of...

I was confused. I was like, many trans people? Yes, we are. No, no, no, no, like chicken driving the prices up. Yeah. Yeah, we're like there's like like this Oh that I was like I was like you meant those mini trans people. No, no, no, like like there's a reason Like if I wish there was a reason I wish trans people were full of eggs cuz it would make sense Right or like we're the ones with the gas prices. Yeah, the control over the gas prices. Yeah, cut them open There's gas and eggs in absolutely. That was nice. Yeah all basketballs fair sports. Sports aren't fair. Because I feel like if they eradicated every trans person from public life, their words, would anything change for anyone?

No. There would be less hot people around. Just us. Right. That's what I'm saying. Gas, eggs, sports. If that, I don't know. We would just have to get no contact door dash. Like what? You get a barista with regular hair. If that, I don't know. We would just have to get no contact door dash. Like what, like. You get a barista with regular hair.

Oh, just terrible coffee. Septum piercings go way down. Yeah. But I mean, the right has managed to take, like five years ago, that kind of bigotry was like sort of a fringe right wing way to feel. Right, at least that's the way it felt in American society. And they grew it and grew it and grew it until now,

the liberal governor of this state is like bowing down to it. Well, here's what I'll say. Five years ago, to be like a bigot towards gay people, gay men and lesbians, and I'll throw bisexuals in there. And their boyfriends. We don't, you know, it's like, but, and I'm not trying to, it's not bisexual erasure, it's just like, whatever. Erase me, daddy.

Anyway, I will throw it in there. What I'm trying to say is sexual orientation. It was fringe five years ago. Transphobia has not been fringe. It might be to us here in Los Angeles, you know, but it's not, it has not been fringe. It might be to us here in Los Angeles, you know? But it's not. It has not been fringe. Because if you get a group of enough gay people, there will be many transphobic people in there.

Absolutely fucking likely. 100%. So here's what my, like, too many years on the internet is. They found an issue. They knew they were gonna get abortion done. And they thought they'd lost it a while ago. They lost the gay marriage fight, equal marriage fight a while ago. So they had to pivot and find something that was more divisive.

And they found us. A new culture war. And we are, that's the thing is we are like, us and Palestine are the two most divisive things happening right now. Is that because, like as you said, trans people, the coming out process, right, has been more recent. Like, gay people started coming out in the 80s, or even before that, but you know, in popular awareness, you know, I'm thinking about like, Will and Grace in

the 90s, right, even that was now 30 years ago. But I met the first out trans person I knew much more recently than that, right? And so it's just like the timeline has happened later. And so now there's a social reaction that, you know, was a little bit delayed. Like T was part of the acronym LGBT, but like not enough trans people had actually come out in 20 whenever the Obergefell decision was right for like there to be like a backlash among like that part of America that was gonna have it is that what happened I Think they were thinking about us Started thinking about you know us they didn't think about us. There were too few of us Yeah, you know what I mean, and then yeah, no no, please and then they were like

children love sports. Yeah, yeah. And trans children, there are 12 of them, but they exist. And they might pick up a baseball. And that's pretty bad. And that was smart, starting with the children,

pretty smart of them, unfortunately. Like as the angle of attack. Oh, yeah. You don't know me? You don't know, like, what... You know, they don't know us. They don't know, like, what, you know, they don't know us, they don't know, like, what's going on, but we're, like, spooky and influential to them, you know? Yeah, I'm always just so impressed by the right's, like, magicianship of, like,

people have real problems and real pain in the world. They can't afford groceries or cars or healthcare. And they're like, it's not our problem. What you want to do is, you know, go after these people that you've never met. Yeah. Well, I'm like, yeah, it's just so impressive. It is impressive because they actually do the things they say that we're doing, which is they influence children at a very young age.

Yes. By putting them in Bible camp or whatever. Exactly. And like making them, you know, like being violent to their kids and spanking their kids and making them obedient to authority figures and enforcing these like very strict gender norms of like what you can and cannot do. And like, I just have to say, it's like,

it's stunning to me to be a man who grew up a girl and in the 80s and 90s through that feminist movement, for all of its like imperfections and mistakes, to grow up through that, to sit my ass down in front of the television on a Saturday morning, I think, and watch the first WNBA game, only to have young cisgender women now go, we have a biological disadvantage to men. And I'm like, what are you doing? Like you're literally saying they're less than. Yeah. And sports and they're going, they're

saying it from a fairness. Like it's like, are you serious right now? What? It confounds me. And I don't know. I just maybe... Me and my little river was slip sliding around watching that basketball game. Dude, I was having the best time. I was having the best time.

I'm sure you were. But like, you know, I came up at this time where it was about equality. So to me, I was like, women and men are going to play sports together. Mm hmm. Yeah. And that's ultimately what I think needs to happen and they're terrified, men are terrified of it. They do not want to get their ass kicked by women. And that's like ultimately what we're protecting.

But anyway, it's far afield from the children thing. It just... No, no, I want to hear you speak on sports because you are a... Are you a sports guy? I'm a sports guy. I what's on right now. Yeah Who plays sports I am what do you play friends and they're not like this is unfair Sidebar one time River and I DMed about baseball for like an hour And it was just like paragraphs and paragraphs and paragraphs about baseball just explaining it to me, and I was like transmitter man

And I'm loving it And it was just like paragraphs and paragraphs and paragraphs about baseball just explaining it to me and I was like transmitter man And I'm loving it I'm still bisexual. I'm sorry. No, I loved it Learning so much. I went to my friends. I was like, did you know this about baseball? Like River told me some stuff and they're like, okay, I will say some stuff. I love to learn. Go ahead. I don't know. I mean, look, it's such a, I think that Sammy got it right,

which is the attacks on trans kids and the attacks on trans people in sports are like two weak points that like the right found. That they were like, because to the average person who has not heard of any of this shit, There are the two things that make them go like I'm a little I have questions. I'm confused

And they think we have allowed them to define the the issue But and that's what I want to hear you guys because they think like Juana man is what's happening You know they think this is a movie It's a movie that I haven't seen but the premise is that a guy dresses up as a woman to play basketball You know like and there's also the show the movie ladybugs like it's a premise in film right and that's honestly What people are thinking they are screening for those soon When instead it's like hey this kid wants to play sports with their friends. Yeah.

This 10 year old would like to play soccer with their friends and probably their friends want to play soccer with their friend, you know, but that's not how it's being presented. And that's a form of fairness as well of who gets to play sports. That is the ultimate form of fairness. That is, now form of fairness that it yeah that is now I'm yelling that That what you just said is the only form of fairness that actually exists in sports Mm-hmm keep going because Michael Phelps exists right if we were about fairness in sports He would not be allowed to swim because he can breathe underwater and all trans people know that

But he has like these feet that are like fins and his body is built in this very peculiar way. Yeah, exactly. Peculiar way that makes he has an advantage at swimming. Yeah. And the TV will go on and on and on and on about how incredible this is. Yeah. And then they'll also try to spin this thing and act as if trans women have some inherent advantage over cisgender women when in fact here's where I get to be my Adam Conover please a trans woman who has had bottom surgery and is on hormones and a

cisgender woman of the same age the cisgender woman will have more testosterone in her body than that transgender woman will really if you think that testosterone in and of itself gives you an inherent advantage which I as a person who takes testosterone I don't believe that Because I believe that sports are a lot more They're about more than just like brute strength or testosterone. Yeah, they're about the chemicals Gatorade. No, but they're like about they're about more than just it's

human bodies are not cars. You know what I mean? It's like that's just not because I know we've had like juicing and doping and stuff. But like Barry Bonds should be in the Hall of Fame. He still had to hit the ball. Yeah, yeah, he still had to hit a baseball. Yeah, a lot of people can't do that.

Here's something I wanna say. I'm pro losing at sports. When I was a kid, I played in like little league and we were terrible. We got beat constantly, but it was the most fun because it didn't matter as much. We're just fucking around. 100%.

And then when I was on, this is sort of different, I was on a marching band that did really well, and it became so stressful. And serious. And serious. And we lost a thing, and everyone was crying, and like, you know, silent trip home in the bus. And I'm like, if we were losing the whole time, this would have been a lot more fun.

Yeah, yeah. Totally. I can't agree with you more. Like, the way American society and capitalist society, what has happened to children's sports is awful. Like it's I feel like it's this is all connected to like the participation trophy shit too. Like no, it's about you know, it's like dude, this is six year old children learning how to be people together. Yeah. To be teammates. I I personally believe men and women should be playing sports together. And I'm just using those binary words as a catch all for all of it. Because I think it would create a more just and kind society.

Because if we saw each other as teammates for our entire childhoods, we probably wouldn't get out into the world and fight each other all the time. And that's why we're starting a curling league. That's right. Because curling has always been coed, right? Yeah. I think there's a degree to which... I think you nailed it when you said that what we've done to kids' sports

in this country is part of the problem, because people treat kids' sports as though it's their entertainment sports. In a lot of cities that is, hey, the best sports you can watch is like the high school team, but that means you get these agro adults who are like, I want my team to win! And then they... It elevates the importance of winning.

Like, yes, in a game, you need to have a winner and a loser. There needs to be a distinction, so you need to have, like, some baseline level of, like, competitive, you know, whatever standards. But is winning the actual important thing about playing sports? Is it, like, the fundamental, or is like losing... Think about the camaraderie that you get when you're on that losing team. I don't know what the teams are that never win, but...

The Bengals. The Bengals? But you know, those cities are like diehards. And it's such a like feeling of like, you know, one day. One day. You know, we're at the bar, one day our team's gonna win. I like that. Yeah, I like that too. I don't know. I'm not from a place that has like professional sports,

so yeah, we were always just like the college sports teams, you know, and it was just like, we're never good. I think our men's basketball team just lost, and that's fun. I watched my friend on Twitter talk about it for a few weeks, and that's great. Yeah, I also wanna point out how infrequent it is for trans people to even be playing in sports.

It's like very few. NCAA, how many people? I think it was 10. I think it's 10. It was 10. Out of hundreds of thousands of athletes. Yeah, hundreds of thousands of athletes. And that's the 10 people who stuck it out

under great duress. Also, in middle school, a trans kid and high school, a trans kid and then coming out at some fucking point and going I should still throw this ball being brave enough to throw a ball while trans. Thank you. It's so fucking. Because I think what is left out is how again difficult it is to be trans in America and what

a disadvantage that is. With apologies to all of you. No, no. But like. No, I know. But like, I mean, the amount of social sacrifice you make, the amount of physical sacrifice that you make, all of it, it's a very difficult thing to do. And so to succeed in a sport despite that is to overcome an obstacle that other people

haven't had to overcome. It reminds me a little bit of Oscar Pistorius, the runner who had the, you know, was he a, he wasn't an amputee, he didn't have legs below the knee, but he had like those blades that he ran on, right? He later murdered his girlfriend, which made him less of a good story. But when he was competing in the Olympics, people were like,

this guy has an advantage because he has these like spring legs. And I had multiple arguments with people where I was like, the man doesn't have calves. Yeah. He's got to get up and put his legs on. You don't know what... His legs generate energy. Yours do. His do not. Yours do.

Also, you don't know what it feels like to have that. There's a particular, my friend lost the bottom of his leg, so he knows what, it has a name to it. It's like, what that feels like, the nerves on the end of the knee, I can't even imagine what that would be like to run like that. To run without the feeling of your feet on the ground. But that is the thing that is missing,

which is, can you imagine what it would be like to be that other person? And most people can't imagine and don't want to imagine what it's like to be a trans person or a person with disabilities. All this stuff is connected, so I don't want to disconnect any of it. But it's terrifying to people to consider that this thing that they believe to be true about themselves their entire lives might not be true or might not be as concrete as they thought it was.

And it's terrifying to people. And so they build all this shit up. Just imagine being disabled or imagine being- Yeah, to just consider what that might be like for two seconds. Because technically, I just read, I didn't realize this, but gender dysphoria is technically a disability. I just see how, because I have it too, like I have to practice empathy.

I'm not like a perfect, you know, I have to do it. I have to consider, oh wait, what would this be like? And the reason I consider, I know what it might be like for somebody to be transphobic is because I've been transphobic as a trans person, you know, like... What you do. It's built in. What you say.

Tell us what you did. I do, baby. I didn't accept myself for 35 years, you know? I mean, that's what I didn't do. That's a hard one. Yeah. Rough. But I think it speaks to,

to bring it back to the sports thing about the people who think, oh, this isn't fair and you know, all these things. It speaks to what they want out of their children's sports activities, which is like Dylan was saying, winning, winning, winning, winning, success, professional sports.

Like this kid's gonna make a million dollars. And that's awful, you know? Yeah. Yeah, it's awful to put that on any kid. Yeah, it's an awful society to live in. Yeah, it's good for kids to lose, you know? Yeah. 100%. Get to practice it. It's good for everybody to lose.

So much of my life has been about losing, so. Yeah. I'm losing it. I'm losing it. Say that. I'm losing this, I'm losing that. Here's the problem that I think we face though, as a movement, I include myself as someone who cares about this,

is that like the points that you three are making about this are like really wonderful, nuanced, important, thoughtful points. The American public doesn't have the capability to get that very quickly, right? Like, God willing, we can keep having these conversations for 50 years and we'll get somewhere, you know? But this is the hard, like a very hard conversation to have because not only do you need to correct people's ideas about gender or at least influence them, you have to make them think about sports differently,

which is, sports is like the only thing that Americans care about at all. Like this argument might work great on this podcast. It's not gonna fly on ESPN, you know? And so like... Let's get it on there. Let's get it on there. I'm trying to be honest tonight.

I mean, I'll do it. Yeah, fair enough. I've tried. Fair enough. But I understand your point. I'm not trying to dismiss your point. Like how do we make, like at the same time that you are all correct,

it's a, the right is attacking a weak point, right? And so how can we respond to that? Or do we... Like, what do we do now? Just keep on talking about it, I guess. Just calling it weird. Because from the other side, I'm like, oh, that must feel so good to just have, like, a really binary vision of the world, you know?

To have, like, your ideas are confirmed in a really, like, stark, simple way. I'm attracted to it. I'm like, get him out of sports, two genders. You know, less than three. You know, easy, easy. I see the appeal, is what I'm saying. Less than three is so funny.

You know? I see the appeal. Like, the world is so scary and complicated and nuanced. And as soon as you start investigating stuff, The world is so scary and complicated and nuanced. And as soon as you start investigating stuff, you see this spaghetti of different, the world is, it's complicated and it's scary. So it's like, why don't I just stick to these

sort of black and white thinking? It feels so much better. Yeah, it's scary to acknowledge the lack of simple binaries. Yeah, I also think to your point when you were like, it's scary to think about trans people or consider what it would be like to be trans. They don't wanna do that because in their thought they go, what if I'm trans?

Which is what I did and it turned out to be true. This is what I'm saying. I know, that's why I said to you. What do we have to do? No, no, I know. Oh, when you're trans, you don't want to go, well, what if I'm trans? You go, that's too scary to think about. And then one day, you finally pick up old Stone Butch Blues and it ruins your life. Leslie does. Leslie got your ass. It's a very important book written by Leslie

Feinberg that like everybody on Twitter is like you gotta fucking read this You got they he and your pronouns read fucking stone butch blues Like if you're trans masculine, you gotta read it cuz you'll cut your tits off the next day. It's great I mean, I knew I wanted top surgery like the second I got my boobs though, you know Yeah, I think I lost my train of thought Go ahead. Well, don Dylan was talking about binaries. I wanted to ask you. Love it.

Non-binary, Sammy. Well, specifically, Trump's executive order, right, said that there are only two, not even gender, sexes, male and female. This executive order said very bluntly that you do not exist. And I would love to know your reaction to this as an American. You know, if I don't exist, do I have to pay taxes?

That's a great point. You know what I mean? Do I? Do I? Feels bad, I think sort of plainly. It feels bad. It's incorrect. And which, and I'm not even allowed to pick.

I have to be a girl on my passport. Okay, if this is what a girl looks like to you, I'm pretty even allowed to pick? I have to be a girl on my passport? Okay. If this is what a girl looks like to you, I'm pretty bad at it. I don't know. I'm being a little funny about it because I just... Like what you were saying, they don't get to tell me, like, who I am. It's just not... I think, like, it doesn't really matter to me if I get an ex-gender marker.

You know what I mean? Like, I agree with you. I'm like, get rid of them altogether. And additionally, they don't really have that power to control who we are. Like, it's just not reality. They would like it to be reality. They can fight very hard about it, make it really hard to access the things we need to do whatever, but that doesn't make us less trans.

That doesn't make me less non-binary. Unfortunately, worst thing ever, so annoying. We love one of the two drenders. Absolutely. Going, hi, I'm Sammy, I'm Zay them, humiliating. Being issued this haircut, horrifying. Terrifying, awful. It's like they're trying to like override reality

with their ideology. They're trying to override reality with their ideology. They're trying to say, no, our ideology says reality is like this. Here you fucking are, you're on my couch right now. And I'm wearing this stupid fucking shirt. Like, I don't know what you want from me. You know what I mean? I cut my tits off, I have this dumb shirt on.

You can't tell me I'm not non-binary. Look at me. And I'm not saying like pass. Well, there's no way to pass as non-binary, I guess. Well, you can be a barista, but... No, that's the non-binary. That's the spicy non-binary. Yeah, but it's just like, not that presentation is everything with being trans, but I'm just saying like, okay. Okay, buddy.

One of my favorite ways to talk about gender being a spectrum is to ask someone if they've ever met someone, like, Adam, have you ever met someone who's more manly than you? River. Yeah. So spectrum. River plays rec league baseball. I'm not doing that shit. I've never once dove into the ground to catch a ball or beat out a ball.

And I never will. So spectrum, right? Yes, there's a spectrum. You can see it just from people that you meet, I guess. I don't know. Does that make sense? Yeah, no, it totally makes sense. And I mean, people... What's funny to me in that executive order is that it like bars gender ideology when in fact like the whole executive order is their gender ideology so like yeah it will fall apart legally at some point it falls apart like realistically you know like it's all just it is smoke and mirrors

but it will have a profound effect on a lot of people and I don't like to always be like it's gonna affect cis people but like it's gonna affect cis people but like It's gonna affect cis people like there are you know cisgender people who do not fit Cleanly into these two categories like Dylan is saying like you know and it just like it just is causing Reeking havoc on all kinds of people well Yeah, I mean I talk all the time about Castor Semenya, the runner, the cis female runner, who I got to see run once. I went to a track and field event with my dad in Eugene, Oregon, and saw her compete in like one of the Olympic qualifiers.

Incredible runner, best in the world. And she is a cis woman, but after like 10 years of her opponent saying, like complaining that they were being beaten, they made a new rule in the track and field association to exclude people with her amount of testosterone, which is her natural body that she was born with. And it's impossible to separate that from trans athletes in sports,

because it happened at the same moment that that was rising. And again, this is a cis woman. She's a woman of color though, right? She's also black. She is a woman. She is a black woman. She is a black woman.

Which is who it's gonna affect the most. Yeah, and all of this deeply has roots in, it's all eugenics anyways. It's not just deeply rooted in it. It is eugenics, you know, which was used against black men in sports All the same things that are being said about trans women right now We're said about black men and black women in this country in sports to keep them out of sports. Yeah

Period. Yeah, so like we've done this before but they feel like they've really with the words like biological woman Which Sammy and I were just talking about, Sammy also did a post about it, drives me crazy when people use that. It's not a, that's not a real thing. It's not an actual thing. Like I'm a biological man. Yeah. Just as much as you are, because I'm here and my body exists.

Biologically. I'm physically here. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So it's, yeah, it just, it's all, it's all the same stuff getting recycled over and over again in this country. Yeah. And, uh, and also at some point in this conversation we have to go and intersex people exist. That's also like such an important part that we just, yeah. It's going to actually affect them the most because I think the thing that people because like

Cisgender people don't think about this ever is that intersex people? You know we we all got assigned something on a piece of paper that didn't work for us that didn't work For us at all intersex people got assigned something on a piece of paper What would you define intersex just for folks who folks who might, who we don't know, if you're able to? Well, I don't know. I know you're not a doctor, I'm sorry. No, but my understanding is an intersex person

is born with multiple sex characteristics. Or ambiguous sex characteristics. Or ambiguous, thank you, Sam. Yeah, like physical, primary and secondary sexual, biological characteristics, they often have chromosomal differences and shit like that. It's a real thing that happens. Yes, it happens quite often, not whatever.

It's the same amount of people that are redheads in the population. It's like 5%, I think. Wow. And so the thing is, they also, not only are they assigned something on a piece of paper like we are, they also are often at birth, surgery is performed on them. So this thing that like we're constantly hearing on Fox News about like surgeries and surgeries, irreversible, irreversible. There's a whole population of people who have surgery done on them before they can even consent to it. And it's irreversible. Yeah. They don't get to live there because we as a society deem that as like,

whoa, we can't have that. Whereas like it happened. So why is our society not built around it? You know, like our society, you know, should be built around us, you know, should ultimately be built around children and taking care of them. These are literal children who are born with ambiguous sex characteristics.

And then a doctor or a parent says, let's make this person an M or an F and let's physically alter them often before they're like literally two years old. The doctors go, well, this is the easiest one that we do. And cool. Do we put them in the OR? Yep. Great. Yeah. And many of these people, when the ORE? Yep, great. Yeah. And many of these people when grown up say, Well, that was wrong. That was wrong. And often they aren't told.

Right. And they grow up going, something's different about me, which is my experience. So I deeply relate to that. I don't have a one-to-one experience, but that was my, something is off about what you're telling me about me, you know? Which is also, I think the feeling, like, cis people are afraid to have.

Yeah. About potentially other things. Just like High School Musical. I'm being so serious! Well, how is it like High School Musical? Like, that one song where they're like, Stay with the status quo. Like, don't sing, Troy. Just play basketball.

Troy, you're a boy. Play basketball. We need you to play basketball. You can't be in the musical with Gabriella. Like it's just High School Musical. It's a trans allegory. I didn't see it, but now I will. I'm 42 years old.

You're the youngest one this year. I was four, I think. Oh yeah. Well, since you're so young, let's talk about trans kids, cause that's another thing. I'm straight up 34, but sure. That is a great segue.

So you're nine years old. Yeah. I'm a little baby. What's it like being a trans kid? Drinking beer. What's it like being a trans kid? Drinking beer. Drinking beer.

Drinking beer. Drinking beer. Drinking beer. Drinking beer. So the existence of trans kids is another like angle of attack the right has chosen, because it's another one that is like confusing to people who are hearing about it for the first time, which is something I have sympathy for, right? For the average person who's like, they're completely naive and they hear about this on Fox News for the first time,

easy to control how they think. I'd love to know how you three think about trans kids as people who have transitioned as adults, you know? And how, you know, what perspective does that give you on that entire conversation? Well, just to be clear. I know it's really big. Yeah, the WPATH guidelines for trans children and trans teens is social transition.

And then the medication that's prescribed is puberty blockers, which are things that are prescribed to cis children when they have precocious puberties. And are reversible. And are reversible. There's not a lot of negative side effects. So cis people are taking the same medication. Cis children are taking the same medication,

but they want to ban it if you have a plan to transition after 18. Yeah. And they often, the people's argument is wait till you're 18 to make those kinds of decisions. And I think most people that say that are probably saying that and that seems right to them because they're thinking about like tattoos, you know? But they're not thinking about the reality of what this, of waiting until you're 18. Because if you have to wait till you're 18 to take puberty blockers, you've already missed the boat. And this is the only time that you can do that thing.

You've gone through puberty, your body has changed. It's changed. And so then you have to do the thing that they also think we shouldn't do, which is have surgery. So it's like, you have to admit at some point that this is a game, you know, and you're you're moving the goalposts so that we can't have the things that we need, you know, and I happen to have the blessing to do stand up for my doctors.

Like their gender clinic recently, they did like a conference. And you did stand up at the conference? They hired me to do stand up at the conference. It was incredible. I was like, guys, this is the most supportive I've ever felt by an audience. And I have great fans, but this was like wild, you know? And so I also watched some of their slides, you know? And they were going through a lot of things. But the one doctor was, she was like, I just want to point out, you know, on this slide, she was talking about puberty blockers and

Hormone and they were talking about the wind the age window of of when to make that decision You know like these are things that lots of people who have lots of experience and who took an oath to do No harm are spending a lot of energy and and thought and and and time investing into when is the best time to do this. Not just random people in their kitchen like bitching about it, you know? Yeah. She was like, I just want to point out this is a scientific fact here on the bottom that puberty blockers and hormone therapy replacement in trans teens reduces suicidality by 95%."

She was like, that is a scientific fact. It is irrefutable. Irrefutable. And I just found out, you two probably know this, but I just found out, I didn't realize this, and I'm glad that I didn't until I did, which is that if I was a kid now and I had loving parents, which I believe my mom would be supportive of this, I really do, and I went on puberty blockers and I started taking testosterone like I do now when I was 13 years old, I would probably be 6'2 and I would have a voice box. And I had to like grieve that because I didn't realize that's what I could have actually had.

And that's like what other trans kids can have. Is that... Well, like you have a male puberty. I had a male puberty. You'd have a different voice. But I had a male puberty at 37. So like things were already established and those things are not going to happen. But like that's what I want for other people who are not me, but who are me.

How many sports do you think you would have been playing? All of them. You're only six too. You would have been so tall. But I was only allowed to play volleyball and basketball because it was the 90s and I had a nun as a principal who thought girls weren't supposed to play more than two sports.

You really think you would have been six too? I think so. Is it because your parents are tall? Yeah, both my parents are tall. Anyway. I think so. Is it because your parents are tall? Yeah, both my parents are tall. Anyway. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry, buddy. You know a lot of men have the same issues.

I know. I have realized I am absolutely a man because all I think about is being taller and having a bigger dick. That's all I fucking think about. The more men I met, I was just like, oh my god, this is all... These are me. Are these normal convos? Are these normal convos? Is this what men are talking about?

Well, one of the immediate effects of the executive order, or at least what the Trump administration is trying to do is take federal funds away from hospitals that provide gender care for, or healthcare for trans kids, which is by the way, the same way that they made abortion unavailable. Because like, why do you have to go to a special place to get an abortion?

Why can't you go to a normal hospital? It's because a hospital that provides abortions can't get federal funds, which is a big part of their income, which means that they need a separate source of funding, which is like, it's the exact same path that we've gone down. which is like, it's the exact same path that we've gone down. As a result, some places have started to cease offering gender supporting care. The Children's Hospital in LA announced

that they were going to stop doing it. Dylan, I know you went to a lot of protests. I did. Tell me about those. Yeah, I think every Thursday there were people out there protesting, you know, to bring back the care at the children's hospital. And after I think a month or so of protesting,

they reversed some of their policies, right? Yeah, they reversed them back to, we will once again provide care. Yeah, so protesting kind of works. Surprisingly, I don't know. Yeah, it's good to see. I don't know if they're all the way back with the previous policies, so.

And again, it's like, probably like four surgeries a year on like a minor or something. You know what's crazy is there's more botched circumcisions by like tens of thousands. I think they really have a fear of, that there's a tide of people accepting themselves and living as themselves. I mean, I really, it's the biggest thing.

I mean, you- They're scared of us getting top surgery. I'm trying to talk, I'm trying to get us to like a positive place here. I know you are. Yeah. What do you want to say? Say one more dark thing right now.

No, I wasn't going to say a dark thing. I was going to say a positive thing, which is the, I'm sure you've seen the, the left-handedness graph on the internet. I mean, it's that. It's basically that. I mean, my own dad is left-handed. He's told me horror stories of what they did to him because he was left-handed. Go over it really quick. What is a left-handed graph? Oh, the left-handed graph is, uh, what is it?

It's the amount of left-handed people after we stopped forcing left-handed people to be right-handed goes up. It's like yeah, no shit Aren't you left-handed? I am left-handed. Look at me. I've been holding my pen in my left hand this whole time. I'm left-handed too. You're basically trans dude. That's it. Finally somebody says it. What do you mean? I texted you everyday. I'm always, we're on the road together and I'm like, Adam you gotta think about it. You make a beautiful woman. You just gotta picture me in an egg cup

and Sammy's got one of those little spoons. That little cartoon. Did anyone try to make you right-handed? No, I was very much encouraged to be left-handed. They were like, this is how you write. Yeah, get those pencil smudges all over the side of your hand. Sure.

It's hard to draw when you're left-handed. Yeah, a lot of stuff sucks. Yeah. Now you get it, now you really understand being trans. But no, I mean like literally I have a stat here that like LGBTQ plus identification in the US is up to 9.3% of US adults. 23% for Gen Z. Like almost one in four Gen Z people identifies as some letter of the alphabet and the pluses every letter. So they're, you know.

This is why I keep dating young. It's just more of them. All right, all right, all right. It's bread, all right, all right. That's a great excuse, the more of them are gay. But I mean, this is like unstoppable. And it makes me think that, you know, this is so stupid, but like, I literally, so much of my understanding

of gay history, I got from the film Milk, unfortunately. It's very embarrassing. But it was like, literally like, here's the political program, right? Of like, this was the gay rights movement. And there's just a whole scene where they're like, so we're all gonna come out. And that's very important because then once you're out you're like undeniable and you exist and people have to Deal with you and it's hard, but that's what we're gonna do and I was like, oh

I'm 25 and like oh I get it and like that's what's happening and I have to Think that it will still work and that they are afraid of it working and they're trying to cram everybody back in the bottle, but it's too late. Yeah, I do really think it's too late because I have met a lot of parents of trans kids. Like recently I was on the Joko cruise and a couple parents of trans kids came up to me and they were like, they told me,

I have two trans kids or I have a trans kid. This gave me the rundown of like who they are and like we love them and you know all these things. And they're like, what can I do? And I was like, you're already doing it. And they're like, what do you mean? And I was like, because you have trans kids. Like the fact that they're telling you that and they're doing it. That's it. Yeah. Yeah It's actually all this stuff is so much more simple than they make it very complicated, you know, yeah, but you're right I mean the toothpaste is already out of the tube You know like to me when Harvey Milk did that and they all did that like basically like it

You know, he said smash the closet behind you like it's done It doesn't exist anymore and it's just been a continuous thing of that like and then the 90s was kind of like, okay now we're gonna do this on like a Television level right, you know, we're gonna do this on a very different level But it just it's already started and because we're not a movement that's interested in like hurting people It just keeps going. Yeah. Yeah in like hurting people, it just keeps going. Yeah. Yeah.

So we're like slower, you know? Like ours takes longer because our movement is about loving ourselves and loving each other and everybody, even the people that hate us, like maybe not first, but you know? So like it just continues to happen. They can try to take trans people off of TV. They can't take trans people like out of the real world.

They can't take them off TikTok. Definitely not. Some of the best like trans people off of TV. They can't take trans people out of the real world. They can't take them off TikTok. Definitely not. Some of the best trans creators are on TikTok. Yeah. Like, come on. Very Demure. Very Demure, K. Poir. Like, all these people are so fucking good

and really, really funny. And I feel like that is, sorry, that's getting to the kids. If we wanna talk about it, that's getting the kids to, I mean, realize they're trans, accept trans people, you know. Things like that, yeah, I just don't... I also have had, like, when I'm on the road with Adam, people who come up to me and, like, I have trans kids, and I go, you're saving their lives. Like, you're saving their lives. Thank you for doing that.

Like, I wish I had that. I just wish I knew what that was even a possibility. Yeah, that's the biggest thing. Yeah, that's sort of against, you know, just that it's not really indoctrination. It's just like, this is a thing. This is an option. Yeah, because I don't want to, you know, trans anyone who doesn't want to be trans. Right? It's such a crazy...

That's so much worse. That's when I came out, my dad was like, well, who did this to you? Who got you? Like, did someone, yeah, who targeted you? And I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, what would they even get, I guess, out of it? Yeah. It used to be a toaster oven for lesbians,

but now it's like an oven. I mean, literally every city that we go to, it doesn't matter what state, Texas, Indiana, like Missouri, like trans folks come to every single show that we do. People have brought, we've had like 17 year old trans kids come to the shows. That kid in Chicago. Oh my God.

They were fucking like, like bi gender kid in Chicago came up to us and like, you know, meet and greet. I was working at the merch table, just like so nice came what came to talk to me uh one guy's picture their picture with adam came back to me to show me a snake that they drew I just like thought about that kid for like a week I was like you know we need you I like I was so ineliquate with this kid I was like you know we need you right just say just

say just stay on this earth all we need is you have to stay. You and your snake drawings. I felt like I was like, I was out of my mind. I was like begging, I was like, you, we, we love you. Like, I don't know how, I will call you every day and tell you how much you matter. Like, I don't, I don't know what I could do. Just this weird 34 year old friend.

I was just like, I don't know how to talk to children. I don't know any children. It's my, it's my favorite part about touring is like meeting people and see like these are Americans, right? And that kid is gonna grow up and like go work someplace and they're gonna know a hundred to 200 people and all those people are gonna be like, oh yeah, I like trans people cause I like this,

that's my friend. Like you can't, you cannot deny someone who's right in front of you, you know? I want to show a clip that went all over the internet. So wait, let me set it up. So this is a guy who went to a like city meeting to protest the existence of trans people and then saw everybody speaking and, this is how he reacted. All right, Larry, the floor is yours. You got two minutes. First of all, I'd like to apologize to you people.

I was invited here to give my support for Bill 401. I have very little knowledge of gay people and things like that there. So when I came here, my eyes were open. I was one of the critics that sat on the side and made the decisions. There was only two genders. So I got an education that was unbelievable. And I don't know just exactly how to say this, but my perspective for people have changed. So I don't take up no more of your time. I apologize for being here.

And I learned a very lot about this group of people. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, come on. Give it up for Larry. It's like, thanks Larry. I mean, this man watched a couple of trans people presumably speak for what, 45 minutes on a microphone? He's like, well, my life has changed. Yeah. He's changed for the rest of his life.

Yeah. I hope I can have an open mind when I'm older. I mean, I also think, you know, like that, it's such a great capsule of the thing. He's like, I didn't know anything about this, you know? And it's like, you don't even really know anything about the thing you're coming to support. You know what I mean? Like, and I don't, I'm not trying to diminish the guy.

It's like, we just, like, this doesn't, none of this is relevant, you know? But this to me is like, so the silver lining of all of this stuff? And it's, all of it, like the whole fascist regime is that this will, that is happening constantly. People are going like, oh, wait a second, you know? And unfortunately it's because a lot of people are losing their benefits too, and their healthcare and the medications that they need because the federal government starts saying like,

well you can't perform abortions and you can't perform this. You can't, we're not gonna let you do this disability and we're not gonna let you do that. It's like, it's just gonna get, you know, all the way down the line. I mean, they're gonna strip Medicaid, you know. It's like, at a certain point, we have to realize we're in this together,

not with those people, you know. I mean, this to me is why it really encapsulates to me how powerful it is to know you three and how much I love knowing trans people because like, to watch someone transition at great like personal cost and social cost and economic cost and to say, I'm not who I was told I was. I'm not who you think I am. Here's me and that's who I'm gonna be. Despite everything is like such a powerful liberating thing to watch someone else do.

It makes me say, well, how am I not living as who I am? How am I letting society hold me back? It's like such a revolutionary political act just to be yourself as a trans person, but also as fucking anybody to do that. And it catalyzes other people making the same choice, just like it did for Larry. I feel the same way.

And that's something I've been grappling with the last couple of years myself. And it's just, that is unstoppable as a political program. That's why coming out like is unstoppable as a way to change our culture and society. One person comes out, everybody comes out, honestly. I mean, we've all gotten those messages that are like, you coming out made me come out,

or like made it easier for me to come out kind of thing. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So many. Cause there's also people that did it for me. Yeah. You.

For me. Like I was listening to Put Your Hands Together and you were like, oh, I'm non-binary. Really? What? What do you mean I can be non-binary? If it's non-binary, I can be non-binary. And then you went, sure. But you know.

Then I went too far. And then you went and then you killed the girl inside of it She's still in there. No you ever miss anything. It's fun to see you cuz I'm like we wouldn't we wouldn't we cross paths Yeah, yeah, do I ever miss anything? Yeah, you mean like how do you mean specific? I think I know what you mean, but what do you mean? You know about about womanhood I guess I get yes Because I was raised around women. So that's like, I naturally gravitate to women in social situations.

And then they're like, what the fuck are you doing over here? And so I'm like, oh shit, I'm a dude now. Like I'm fully a dude. You miss the Keeking? Yeah, I miss just like hanging out, you know? But then I would also always feel like a little uncomfortable in those spaces, but. Yeah, cause seeing you, I'm like, do I miss just like hanging out, you know, but then I would also always feel like a little uncomfortable in those spaces But yeah, cuz seeing you I'm like do I miss anything? I feel like I could still bro down with the best of them sure yeah to be honest

Yeah, you and me bro down all the time, dude. Yeah I mean, there's nothing I still got it there was nothing like in girlhood that really, I truly never felt like I was a girl. So there's nothing, I actively disliked the things that people were telling me I had to do. Were you like a tomboy kind of? Yeah, oh yeah.

Okay. That's what's also funny to me too, is that like pre-transition, my life was hell going into women's restrooms. I made jokes about it. I talked about it incessantly. What was going on? I remember those jokes. People thought I was a man going into the women's restroom. So I was like, it was terrible. I had to bring, like my ex-wife would go into the bathroom with me.

Girlfriends would have to come in with me. Just like having short hair and being yourself? Yes, since I was six, dude. So like, that's also to bring it back to like kids and stuff. It's like, you guys are being mean to those kids anyway. You guys are the, you're the ones that are being mean, period. Cause like, I was being ridiculed as a six year old child with shorts and a bob haircut, you know? Like adult men who are the janitors in the bathrooms are screaming at me for being in the wrong bathroom when I was six years old. Like that's, it's insane, you know, like adult men who are the janitors in the bathrooms are screaming at me for being in the wrong bathroom When I was six years old like that's it's insane. You know, like that's crazy

Yeah, my teachers were like such fucking dicks for me just for having like male friends Like that wasn't something girls were supposed to do is like like digimon and like dude stuff, you know I felt so learned to you. I didn't ever felt like a girl. I was not I was not a feminine child No, I was I... I was growing down. I fit right in. No problem. Right out of the radar. It's beating out of you no matter who you are.

I had an experience a couple years ago. So a childhood toy that I remember that me and my sister had, you know, like a toy that you get when you're really young, but you have it until you're like nine or 10, so you really remember it, was we had a Hello Kitty kitchen set, right? It was like a, you know, wooden little pots and pans and like stove and stuff.

And I was like, that's my sister's Hello Kitty kitchen set. When I was like 25 years old, we're watching VHS tapes of a Christmas, and I watch myself open the kitchen set and be like, yay! And my parents are like, yeah, you asked for that. You wanted it. And I didn't know that for like 15 years. And it's not like they told me it wasn't for me. I just asked for it before I remembered that,

and then somehow forgot that it was mine. And by the way, I fucking love to cook and I love to feed people. It's like part of who I am. But it was like this... this some sort of social-cultural masculinity that like infected me that did not actually fit who I was. Totally. I think that's a... everyone can relate to it.

Everyone can, yeah. I mean, you are quite nurturing, like as a person. Thank you. You are kind of mother. Yeah, you are mother. I call you Jada Mother. You know, I have a similar story. When I was a kid, in kindergarten,

there was this like Wonder Woman costume, like that they had in the, like in the class. And I remember this boy put it on and started like parading around and everyone thought it was so funny, myself included. And like later that day, I was like, I'm going to do the same bit. I'm going to get in that Wonder Woman costume. I started putting it on and a teacher from like another classroom saw me and was like frowning and really like, you know, very disappointed look. I felt so ashamed and I like took it off immediately. And it was really like, you know, very disappointed look, and I felt so ashamed, and I took it off immediately.

And it was really sad, really realizing that sort of like, transphobia was already in me at like, a kindergarten level at five years old. But the thing that was more sad was realizing that I was a hack comedian. I think. I was... That was why they were frowning.

They were like... I was a joke stealer. They were like, Billy got slapped for that five minutes ago and now you're gonna try the same thing. I'm still ashamed, to be honest. That's so funny. Why is it that, let me just, all three of you are so funny.

You're so talented. Like, Dylan, you play every instrument. River, you've like show run television shows. Sammy, you're incredibly funny, and do a million things. Why is it, I feel like I have a stereotype that like trans people are incredibly creatively gifted. Is there some reason for that? I think that's just because you live in Los Angeles.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I mean, not to be. We're just in a lot of trouble here. Trans people get to be dumb too. Like I'm like hardcore, like trans people get to be, and I'm not trying to be judgmental. I just mean, trans people get to be. We're just a little out of here. Trans people get to be dumb too. Like I'm like hardcore, like trans people get to be, and I'm not trying to be judgmental. I just mean, trans people just get to be like, you know, whatever, gas station attendants, you know, it's like.

Let the cat girls live. Yeah, just like everything. But I do think there is like a lot of co-occurrence of like ADHD and neurodivergence with trans people. Not me. You know what I've heard? You know what I've heard? I was like,

You know what I've heard about that? And then I was like, don't do that with your face. I've heard the reason for that. I'll tell you. Is that a diagnosis for you? I just saved you $500. No, I don't. Baby, I got my diagnosis, it's fine.

Go ahead. Sorry. I've heard the reason for that is that a lot of neurodivergent people are already not following social cues. So realizing our trans and transitioning is, you know, just another step in that direction. Yeah. Right? Yeah. There's a little bit of like already not playing ball with social norms or expectations. Right.

And that makes sense to me. Yeah, so if you're tuned in, you're like, there's more fear in your heart. That's why in trans events, there's very little eye contact there. Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh my God. That's how we like it. Nobody can see me, I can't see myself.

Well, I can't thank you guys enough for coming on the show. How can... Let's... I... This is such a pro forma question to ask, but how can other people help their trans friends or trans community at this time? How, like, what can we be doing?

You know? Cis people. Cis people. Okay, cis people. This, what can we be doing, you know? Cis people. Cis people. Okay, cis people, this is what we're not doing. First of all, we're not saying biological woman anymore, that's step one. Number two, we're not making any concessions.

When you talk to your cis friends, you make no concessions when they start bringing up, oh, well, trans people might be a little weird. You go, yeah, and I like my trans friends. I like trans people, I think that's good. Their rights are important. And you're not gonna say anything about trans kids in sports or trans kids transitioning.

You're gonna go, yes, this is the party line and we're gonna stick to it. And maybe I'm being a little stringent or militant or whatever. I don't care. If you wanna be a good cis person, that's what you do. Right? Yeah.

Me next? We don't need to go around. Sure, sure, sure. Well, I love what you said, Sammy. I'm getting my motor going. I guess, well, I wanted to make this point, and I forgot to make it earlier, but I think it relates to this, which is that I forget which country it is. Maybe Sweden, maybe Norway.

I don't know. But if you ask a person in the United States, what's the opposite of a man? Like what would you guys say? What would you say Adam like what would you I think most people say woman right So if you ask in other countries specifically these countries if you ask what the opposite of a man is they say boy If you ask what the opposite of a man is, they say, boy. Oh. Oh. You got me scratching my chin.

So I say that, you know, because you ask, like, what can you do to help? And I think thinking like that is a great first step. Yeah. You know, to go like, oh, weird. So what does that mean? That, like, we're not actually opposites of each other. And we're just like, you know, we talk about gender as a spectrum, and I think that kind of got like weirded out

by people and they don't like to hear that so it's kind of like we're actually just like all versions of these things you know and like male and female is like poles as opposed to like opposite binaries it's poles and then everybody exists within it you know and we're not opposites of each other. And I think, too, just imagine if this was all happening to you, what would you do? Yeah. Imagine if it was happening to you. If people were telling you, you can't do this,

you're not allowed, it's not fair, I don't like you, and I don't want you around me. What would that feel like? And what would you want somebody to do for you? That would feel bad. It would feel really bad, you know? Get Christlike with it. Because it's just like this society that thinks it gets to tell other people what they can

and can't do all the time. Which is crazy. And I would say, you know, like try to have trans friends if you don't have any in person, like follow people, follow these folks, you know, online and like, just have a good time, you know? I don't know. It's like. Oh, don't ask only the trans people what our pronouns are. Yeah.

That's hard. That's hard. I'm just glad we're not one of the romantic languages that genders everything, you know? Bus. Tables. Pasta. That's a girl pasta. No, it's a boy pasta.

That vacuum is a man. Yeah. Thank God. But that is just like part of the word. Like in German, and I studied German, so I know this, the word for girl is neuter. It's a gender neutral, it's like specifically, like das Mädchen is, I'm sorry.

I'm sorry that my pronunciation is perfect. But it's like, it almost, it's like such a simple part of speech that, I don't know how much they stress out about it, but. Well, I can't thank you all enough for being here. It's, I feel like really privileged and lucky to know all three of you. Um, do you have any questions you want to ask us? I've been asking you questions for 90 minutes.

Like personal questions. Yeah. In the spirit of curiosity. No, I'm anything you've been dying to ask. Uh, do you want to know if my nipples are weird? They are. I'm dying to ask for you to plug your shit. Where can people find you? I'm at DMakes on Instagram and TikTok.

And if you see me around, say hi. You're working on a new show that's coming out soon. I am working on a new show, a cartoon show, for Cartoon Network. Oh, nice. It's a call. It's called Super Mutant Magic Academy, based on the graphic novel by Jillian Tamaki.

Yeah. And I'm so excited about it. It's a, I'm so excited about it. I'm so excited about it. I'm so excited Super Mutant Magic Academy, based on the graphic novel by Jillian Tamaki. Yeah. And I'm so excited about it. It's, to pitch it really quick. Go off. It's Gajan Harry Potter at a shitty public school.

That sounds amazing. Yeah. River, how about you? I'm at RivButcher on Instagram, and then I think I'm the River Butcher on TikTok. We'll see if that happens. And I'm doing some standups, so go to my website, riverbutcher.com.

You got dates coming up? I do. I'm gonna be in Bethlehem, PA, at the Steel Stacks, the Arts Quest, on April 11th, and then I'll be in Pittsburgh at Bottle Rocket Social Club the next day. And then in May, I'll be at the Last Best Comedy in Montana. I can't remember the exact date of that,

but then I'll also be at Limestone Comedy Festival in Indiana. At the end of May. I've never done stand-up in Montana. Me neither, it's my first time. I'm so excited. Sammy? At Sammy Marri on everything,

and you know, I'll be on Rhode Island April 3 through 5th, opening for you. Yeah, you know, I'll be on Rhode Island. April 3 through 5th. Yeah, you can come see me and Sam. We do stand up at Providence, Rhode Island, Eugene, Oregon, Vancouver, Tulsa, Oklahoma, Oklahoma City, South Carolina, South Carolina, Spokane and Tacoma. Yeah. Come give us a hug in the meet and greet line. Yeah. Adam, thanks for having us.

Thank you so much for being here. What a pleasure. We love you. Oh, we love you us. Thank you guys so much for being here. What a pleasure. We love you. Oh, that's- We love you. As all trans people do. Oh yeah. Well, thank you once again to River Sammy and Dylan for coming on the show.

I hope you love that conversation as much as I did. If you did, consider supporting us on Patreon, patreon.com slash Adam Conover. For five bucks a month, you get every episode of the show ad free. For 15 bucks a month, I'll read your name in the credits. This week I want to thank Tank Guy, Damien Frank, Matthew, Robert Miller, Griffin Myers, oh no not again, Sam Biggins, Taylor Knefik, BK, Ryan Copselroth, Robin Ward, Alex Womack, Grant King, and 90 Miles from Needles.

Thank you so much for supporting the show. If you want me to read your name at the end of the show, head to patreon.com slash Adam Conover. Of course, if you want to come see me on the road in Eugene, Vancouver, Tulsa, Oklahoma, Spokane, Washington, a lot of other great cities had to Adam Conover dot net for all those tickets. I want to thank my producers, Sam Roudman and Tony Wilson, everybody here at Headgum for making the show possible.

Thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you next time on Factually. I don't know anything. That was a Head Gum podcast. Hey, I'm Wayne Brady. And I'm Jonathan Mangum. And we're two big improv nerds who get a chance to play and make stuff up on shows like Whose Line Is It Anyway or Let's Make a Deal.

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