Factually! with Adam Conover - Bernie Sanders’ Plan to Stop AI Theft

Episode Date: August 5, 2026

It's no secret that AI is stealing from us. From data to intellectual property to our very humanity, it's clear we need more time to take control of our future. Adam talks to the legend himself, Senator Bernie Sanders, about the urgent need for data center moratoriums, and for us to have a say in where AI goes from here.SUPPORT THE SHOW ON PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/adamconoverSEE ADAM ON TOUR: https://www.adamconover.net/tourdates/SUBSCRIBE to and RATE Factually! on:» Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/factually-with-adam-conover/id1463460577» Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0fK8WJw4ffMc2NWydBlDyJAbout Headgum: Headgum is an LA & NY-based podcast network creating premium podcasts with the funniest, most engaging voices in comedy to achieve one goal: Making our audience and ourselves laugh. Listen to our shows at https://www.headgum.com.» SUBSCRIBE to Headgum: https://www.youtube.com/c/HeadGum?sub_confirmation=1» FOLLOW us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/headgum» FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://instagram.com/headgum/» FOLLOW us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@headgum» Advertise on Factually! via Gumball.fmSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is a headgum podcast. Hello and welcome to Factually. I'm Adam Kanover. Thank you for joining me on this show. My God, we have a big episode for you today. Look, the tech industry started out by telling all of us that they would empower us, right? They would help average people communicate with each other and share the world's information. But a couple decades in, the tech industry we have today is clearly fundamentally extractive, coercive, and straight up plutocratic.

Take AI, for example. AI tools, large language models, while they slurp up the entire sum of human knowledge, culture, ingenuity, you know, everything that we have created as a species and then sell it back to us like it's not something that we created in the first place. And by the way, the tech oligarchs are some of the richest people on the planet, and they are taking all of that knowledge without asking to enrich themselves without paying us. That is not empowering humanity, that is stealing from humanity.

Oh, and speaking of stealing, something else they've stolen is democracy. You know, the big idea for America was that the people are the sovereigns, that, you know, we decide who represents us and how the country should be run. But the tech industry literally does not believe in democracy anymore. Look at what Peter Thiel and his friends have literally written down. Together, they bought the last election, and Elon Musk, the richest man in the world, personally slashed and burned huge chunks of the United States government

in defiance of the elected government, the people we elected who passed laws to build that infrastructure. And now, to top it all off, they are planting enormous data centers across the country in our communities. These hulking monstrosities slurp up our water, jack up our energy prices,

shit greenhouse gases into our atmosphere, and employ none of us, and yet they are building these things all over the place in defiance of a mass movement of Americans that is trying to stop. them. Now, we have had waves of oligarchy in America before, right? Think about the robber barons you learned about in school. They were empowered by new technological innovations as well, like railroads

and the exploitation of fossil fuels. But the moment that we're living in now seems a lot more intense, because it has happened more rapidly than even the Industrial Revolution, and we are at such a crisis point that the oligarchs are literally allied with fascism. So we don't just have the robber barons again. We have the robber barons plus Nazis. So what can we do about all of this? Well, today we are lucky to have on the show a man who has been fighting these battles his entire political career. His name is Senator Bernie Sanders. And, you know, I think history has proven Bernie right about all the things he's been saying for so many decades, almost too right. So there is no better person to have on the show to talk about how insane this political and technological

moment is, and most importantly, what we can do about it. Before we get to the interview, I want to remind you if you want to support the show, head to patreon.com slash Adam Conover. Five bucks a month brings you every conversation we have every single week to you ad free. We would love to have you join our online community as well. Patreon.com slash Adam Conover. And now, please welcome to factually, the senator from Vermont, Mr. Bernie Sanders. Senator Sanders, thank you so much for being on the show.

It's an honor to have you, sir. My pleasure. So look, the tech oligarchs are taking all of human knowledge, summarizing it and selling it back to us. Our economy is dependent on these technologies. They are also using their power to pervert and control our political system. What are your concerns about this and what can be done about it? Oh, not much. Other than that, things are going pretty well.

Look, you know, I'll tell you a funny story, Adam. I am not a tech nerd to tell you the truth. I really am not. But what I am smart enough to know is that AI and robotics are going to be the most transformational technologies by far in the history of humanity. Okay. It is going to impact every man, woman and child in very profound ways. It is moving much, much faster and impactfully than the industrial revolution. Okay?

That's happening. And all I know is I'm sitting around here in the industrial revolution. United States Senate, and you would think what people would say, oh my God, what is it going to mean to the economy? What's going to mean to privacy? What is it going to mean to mental health? What about existential threats? What about this? What about that? Nothing. Hardly a word. Wow. So I jumped into this issue. And the main point that we're trying to make is this, these technologies, AI and robotics, are being pushed by the wealthiest people in the world. Right? Everybody knows that. It's missed the money.

Mr. Bezos, Mr. Zuckerberg, Mr. Ellison, Mr. Ormond, all of these guys, a handful of guys, very wealthy guys. What do they want, Adam, you tell me? You think they're sitting up and I'd say, my God, 60% of Americans are working paycheck, living paycheck, the paycheck. We have kids who are hungry. We have an existential threat of climate change. Oh, my God. How are we going to improve life for all people? You think that's what this thing up nights are not about? I don't think it is. I don't think it is. The American people. don't think it is. These guys have incredible wealth. They want more wealth. And I'll tell you what else they want. They want more power. Yeah. So that's what we're dealing with. All right. All right. So number one, what does this mean? Well, economically, nobody really knows, to be honest with you, but there are estimates out there that over the next decade, tens of millions of jobs can be lost.

give you just a few examples. We got Mr. Bezos owns Amazon, among other entities. He's putting together a $100 billion fund. You know what he wants to do with that fund? He wants to automate all factories in America and abroad. You know what that means? Goodbye manufacturing jobs, goodbye warehouse workers. All of that work is going to be done by robots.

So when you hear people saying, we want to rebuild manufacturing in America, I do, I think that's right. But that doesn't mean much for the average worker if a robot is going to be doing the work, right? Right. All right. I'm sure many of your viewers have been in driverless cars, right?

Remo's or whatever. Yeah? Yeah, they're all over L.A. where I live. All right, they're all over San Francisco. They're growing. They're in Atlanta, et cetera. What does that mean? Well, if we don't think about how we proceed,

there are about five, six million transportation jobs, truck drivers, cab drivers, Uber drivers, bus drivers, everything being equal, those jobs will be gone. So if you're a 50-year-old truck driver today, you're a member of the union, you're making decent wages, what are you going to do when there's a driverless truck

barreling down the road? Okay? Right. Kids graduate in college right now, finding it harder and harder to get entry-level employment. So that is one issue that we have got to deal with. Mr. Musk says that work will be optional. That he is confident that AI and robotics are going to be doing everything that you can do,

I can do, that she can do, in the next X number of years better than we can do it. All right, well, that's great. What happens to us, okay? And by the way, if all jobs are eliminated, Adam, who is paying taxes to fund Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid? Oh, by the way, the government, how does the government run when nobody is working and nobody is paying taxes? Just a minor issue out there. Great question. But I'm sure we can trust Mr. Musk to figure it all out, right?

All right. That's just one issue. They've got another issue, which worries me very much. And that is, young people are spending more and more time on their screens, right? That's a fact. This is an astounding fact that blew me away. 40% of children, two years of age or younger, have screens, have tablets. Wow.

40%. 40%? About two-year-olds. Two-year-old. Jesus. All right. Oh, by the way, you know what's happening in America? Talk to your local teachers.

Our reading scores nationally are declining. People, kids today are reading less well than their parents. They're writing less well. well, that cognitive capabilities are in decline. AI will likely make that trend even worse. Right. Oh, that's not some concern that our kids are getting dumb up. Should we worry about that?

Maybe. I don't know. Or then you got another little thing out there. You got called privacy rights. Remember privacy? I've heard of it. You've heard of it. Well, forget about it.

You're not going to hear about it much anymore. Yeah. Because every damn thing you do on the internet, every financial transaction, every medical transaction that you make, every email, every tweet that you send out, that's going to be part of the public record. People know everything about you, where you are, what you do. Is that a good thing? I don't think so.

Then we have another little thing that we've got to worry about. It's called democracy. Some of us, I know not the president of the United States, but some of us believe in democracy. Yeah. All right? We don't believe in authoritarianism. We think it's a good idea that people should be. We should live in a representative of government.

Right now, go to the Internet. There are deep fakes of me, of many other public figures, saying all kinds of crazy things, and it is harder and harder to tell what is true and what is fiction, correct? Yes, this is a real problem. All right. So what the hell does that mean? So a day before an election,

you got to have been a candidate saying something that's totally crazy, not what he or she said. Are people going to believe it or not? You have an instance, you may have followed the Massey campaign, re-election campaign in Kentucky. I don't know if you follow that at all. The guy's running for re-election, and a little while before election day, they put up somebody, his opponents to somebody, puts up a video of him walking into a hotel room with two women members of Congress, presumably he's having an affair, right?

Totally wide, completely fiction. There were people in Kentucky who believed it. Yeah. I'm sure some elderly folks on Facebook who can't see so well, at the very least, we're tricked by it. Right. All right. And we have every reason to believe that that is going to be magnified. And then you have the existential threat.

I've talked to people like Jeffrey Hinton, one of the godfathers of AI, Nobel Prize winner in physics, who worries that his AI becomes smarter than human beings. it can become independent of human control, leading to perhaps cataclysmic results. And we have just seen an example, you know, with Open AI, Open AI last week, where an agent became independent of control, did what it was not supposed to do.

Yeah, broke into another company. It found a security hole in OpenAI and then a security hole in another company and broke in. Right. So other than that, nothing to worry about. All right. I'm being facetious here. I have a terrible sense of you. No, you're very funny, man.

So, yeah, what do we do about it? All right, that's what, all right. First thought, you've got to slow it down. We cannot let Mr. Musk and Mr. Bezos determine the future of humanity. Right. That's all. We can't allow that to happen. And we've got to say, okay, does AI do some good things?

Yes, it does. Our robots useful in certain instances? Absolutely. Dangerous work? Very good. But we have got to determine the kind of world we want, not a handful of multi-billionaires. And that's why I have called a number of months ago with Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez for a moratorium on the construction of data centers, the infrastructure for AI. And I was criticized wildly when I did that.

It's crazy, terrible, communistic, all these things. And it turns out the overwhelming majority of the American people say, you know what, for a variety of reasons, we rather not have a data center in our community. Yeah. And the point of that is to slow the damn process down so that we get a handle on it rather than a handful of billionaires controlling it. Number two, I've introduced what we call the AI American sovereign wealth fund. And that does two primary things. most importantly, it would give public ownership, 50% public ownership to the major AI companies. And that means on their board, half of the representatives would be from the public.

And the point of that is that at least we would have some people who we could hold accountable to stop bad things for happening. So if a company comes out with a great idea and says, look, we can make zillions of dollars by eliminating 10 million, jobs here, the public representatives say, sorry, that ain't a good idea. We can evade more privacy. We can undermine democracy, whatever it is. And the other thing, if AI becomes as lucrative as some people think it would be, given the fact that it is built, as you said in the beginning, on human knowledge, humanity should benefit at least with half of the financial benefits from it. So that's kind of what we're working on. Let me ask you about that second idea first. So you've compared this sovereign,

wealth fund to the Alaska oil wealth fund or maybe what they have in Norway for the oil proceeds there. Are you imagining that, you know, every American would receive a dividend from that AI income? Really? Exactly. That's really what it would be. And it's really based on the concept of the sovereign wealth fund. Many sovereign wealth funds, Alaska and Norway are based on oil. Yeah. And they said, this was public oil was a natural element that the public should own. It's in the public land.

It's buried underneath all of our feet, right? That's right. Exactly. So that's the case of Norway in Alaska. This is different, obviously, but it is, as you mentioned, a moment ago, what is the foundation of AI? It is human knowledge. Yeah. I've written a number of books.

It is, all that stuff is incorporated into a. AI, every book that has been written, every poem, every math, equation, your work on your podcast, it is part of AI. Should humanity benefit from that or just Mr. Musk and his friends? I think humanity should. Yeah, and I find that to be a powerful idea because so much of the, you know, regulation that the government has done for the public benefit is based on that idea. FCC regulation of the public airwaves.

Nobody owns the air but the public so the public should have control over it. My question is, you know, if someone has lost a job or a career to artificial intelligence, say I work in entertainment, the entire entertainment industry is destroyed by AI or other technologies, and now I'm receiving a $500 a month check from the government, you know, instead. That doesn't necessarily replace what I've lost, does it? Like, it might be cold comfort. Adam, you're into a huge issue. Yeah.

I mean, that is what, because it's hard. So double it. We're going to give you a check for $10,000 a month, okay? What are you going to do with your life? Yeah. All right. Work is an important component of who we are as human beings, whether you're a care driver, whether you're a janitor, whether you're a brain surgeon.

People take pride and meaning and purpose in the work they do. Yes. So I have the, you know, and if they're on no, you know, Mr. Musk says, and it may be hyperbola or it may not be, they're not going to be any jobs. Wow. All right, what do you want to do? Sit around and watch TV all day?

Is that what the function of life? And by the way, because we spend all our life on the screen, we don't know how to relate to other human beings. Yeah. You know, boys, girls, people don't have even socialize the guy. It's not the world that we want. Yeah. All right.

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Well, let me ask this. Some of these billionaires have proposed something that sounds a little bit similar to what you're saying. they've proposed, you know, universal, I think Musk said we should have a universal high income. I think Altman proposed that the government take, you know, some percentage ownership of the company is much lower than yours. I think he said more like 5% rather than 50%. But, you know, when your proposals rhyme with what they are proposing, does that give you any pause that, hey, maybe they have some, you know, ulterior motive for making these proposals? Well, I think that's true. I think they have an ulterior motive.

but they understand in Trump. You know, in my view, Trump is the most dangerous president in the history of the United States. He's lies all the time. He's not stupid, though. He's a good politician. And he understands that there's rising resentment

and anger and fear about AI and robotics. So he says, oh, hey, wait, we're all going to benefit. I got, you know, they're going to give us money. I'm going to give it back to you. I think it's a political ploy. You know, I doubt. that it will really happen. But even if it happened, it doesn't deal with the, you know,

so I give you, you know, 500 bucks a week. They're going to make your life, you lose your job, there are no other jobs, you're really be happy about that. The bottom line here, and it's very difficult, and I don't have all the answers, nobody does. But it gets to the essence of what it means to be a human being. When Mr. Musk, the most powerful guy on Earth says there will be no work, Work will be optional.

And then he talks about the government, really, but I don't know where the government is because nobody is paying any taxes. Yeah. I mean, so nobody knows. So we got to say, wait a second, let's figure this thing out. Let's use AI on robotics where it is helpful.

What kind of world do we want to live in? What kind of world do we want our kids to live in? And that is a discussion we have barely, barely begun. I'm glad that we're having it today. I mean, one point when you say, Musk says none of us are going to work, this is what they said during the Industrial Revolution, too, and that's what, you know, for the last 150 years,

they said, oh, technology will mean you won't have to work. Guess what? People did have to work just in worse jobs, more oppressed, you know, more menial. Do you have that concern that we're just going to end up, you know, chained to the AI doing its bidding for less money than ever? Adam, that is a very important point. the American worker has been lied to for a very long period of time.

And it's not just, I mean, just to give you one example, over the last 50-some-odd years, with all of the increase in automation, forget AI, just plain old automation, with all of the great free trade agreements that was supposed to enrich working people, right? The average worker today is making less in weekly wages that was the case 53 years ago.

But I was a kid growing up in a working class family. One person, my dad, was able to work and earn enough to pay for the family, right? We didn't have a lot of money. We don't have any money. But it was out of one person. How many working class families do you know today where there's one worker? Yeah. Very few.

Okay. So your point is well taken. Workers have been lying to. Hey, trust us. Free trade is going to increase your standard of living. Automation is going to make you richer. It was a lie. And I think this is an enormously big lie.

And they have nothing to say. I mean, literally, Musk says, oh, the government will write out checks. Really? That's your answer, Mr. Musk? So, look, I thank you for paying attention to this issue. We need to do this a million times. The public has got a full. Now, let me just say this.

I mean, we conclude on this note. why isn't the United States Congress spending more time on this issue? Why do you think, Adam? I mean, maybe because this is one of the most profitable industries in the country right now, and they want a little piece of that money. And that's right. And what do you think these billionaires are doing with their money?

Right. They are buying politicians. Yeah. So it is no secret. Democrats are Republican. The word is out of them. It's been paid public. You're running for office.

I would suggest to you. Don't talk about AI. Because if you talk about AI and they need to regulate AI and protect your constituents, you know why the next day, AI will have ugly 30-second ads out against you. Correct. You're not going to win. So they have hundreds of millions of dollars. They are prepared to spend four candidates who they like and against candidates who they don't like.

It's a corrupt campaign finance system. But I think the American people at the grassroots level, are beginning to stand up. And you're seeing Republicans and Democrats say, wait a minute, maybe we need some intelligent regulation here to protect our kids and our workers, et cetera. Well, if you'll permit me to ask you just one more question, sir,

because I've been really concerned with this point. During the last presidential administration, there was an effort to start to regulate the tech giants for the first time. You had the FTC, you had antitrust for the first time. This created a reality. action on the part of these tech oligarchs, right? They suddenly switch sides. They used to say,

we're liberals. They switch sides. And it made me realize how difficult it is to fight power when, you know, power has the power, right? And there's a lot of rage against data centers, but we all, we've seen how, you know, rage on the part of the public if not channeled properly, can

dissipate, right? And it can... Absolutely. So how do we turn the rage into power? How do we organize in order to beat these people? Adam, you've raised a couple of very important points. During the Obama era and into the Biden era, all of these big tech guys, my God, they were so liberal.

They got down on one knee. They were worried about Black Lives Matter. Oh, my God, they were great environmentalists, right? Yes. Love women. Oh, my God. Trump comes into power and say, hey, I'm going to do everything you want. Oh, here, Mr. Trump. Here's millions of dollars. We go to your inauguration. You remember as an inauguration?

Standing right behind them, you know, the big tech oligarchs. Right. And you're right, we switch sides. And that is a major, major political issue. And, you know, are spending now, you know, Musk himself spent $290 million to help elect Donald Trump president. That is itself a profound issue. Look, to me, to answer your question, it's what I do and I'm not here in D.C.

Is we have to organize at the grassroots level because I think most Americans understand whether you're Republican, conservative, moderate, progressive, socialist, whatever you may be. The current economy, an AI only exaggerates that. The current economy is completely rigged for the rich getting richer and working families. struggling. And AI epitomizes that. These guys on the top are going to make zillions working people lose their jobs. And the campaign finances them is corrupt in that the billionaires can say, you know, if you stand up against me, I'm going to destroy your political career. People understand that. Now, how you're organized, you're right. Given that reality is

bringing forth opposition easy. No, it's not. But what we have been working on with some success, We follow the elections. Mamdani is now the mayor of New York City. You know why? Yes. He took on the oligoxy, put 100,000 people volunteering out on the streets. We elected socialists. We elected progressives in New York City, in New Jersey, in Colorado, in California, progressives in Montana, in Ohio.

There's going to be a very pivotal election coming up next Tuesday, as a matter of fact, in Michigan. Yes. where the billionaires are spending $60 million against Abdul al-Said. His crime, he wants to stand up for working people, please, and Medicare for all. So, you know, that's it. You've got to organize. We have had some good success. The establishment, the oligarchs are nervous, but we've got to keep going.

And how can the average person take part in this, right? I know people are showing up at those data center protests, but for folks sitting at home who are listening to you speak and say, I agree with this. and we need to have this conversation, you know, what's the call to action for them? Demand that your congressperson, your senator hold a public meeting on AI. Tell them that you are concerned about the impact that AI is going to have on the mental health of your children,

on your jobs, on your privacy rights. Come to a town meeting and answer the questions that the public has. The way that we stand up to their campaign contributions is when people get mobilized and then the congressperson has got to say, God, do I do what my constituents want, or do I take money from AI or the insurance companies? And if they're smart, they will listen to what their people want.

Last question, sir. You've been saying these things for a long time. Oligarchy, however, has gotten worse, I think, over your time in office. They have more power than they used to. We didn't have folks like Musk a couple decades ago. Now we do. but at the same time, as you say, we have a socialist mayor of New York City. We have a growing progressive socialist movement in this country.

Do you think that things have gotten better or worse than do you have optimism for the future? They've gotten worse. They've gotten worse and better. Yeah. I mean, what's worse is you have more income and wealth inequality than we have ever had. You have the most dangerous president in the history of the country in the White House. You've got climate change, which is wrecking havoc. on the planet right now. That's pretty bad. Yeah. What's good is people are fighting back.

And you're seeing in conservative Republican areas, people saying, thank you. We would prefer not to have your data center that will take our job, you know, in years to come. So I think the good news is the opposition is growing. But it ain't easy. And this is take, we're taking on the most powerful. people in the world who have unlimited amounts of money who own much of the media. It's not easy stuff. But we are making progress. And I would hope that people who watch your excellent show join us in the struggle.

And you feel the people will be stronger than those powerful oligarchs in the long run. They got the money. We got the people. And when people are organized, they are more powerful than money. Thank you so much for being here, Senator. Really, thank you for your time. And thank you for fighting on this issue. Thank you, Adam.

Take care. You as well. Well, thank you again to the Senator from Vermont, Bernie Sanders, for coming on the show, and thank you to everyone who supports this show on Patreon. Once again, five bucks a month to get to every episode we make ad-free. For 15 bucks a month, I will read your name in the credits. This week, I want to thank Virginia Beckenbauer, Rebecca Chompah, Christina Quaranta, Sarrar, Troy Stifler, Fakrindon, Ibrahimov, Yuri Lowenthal, and Adam P.

Thank you so much for supporting the show. If you would like to join them, that URL, patreon.com, slash Adam Conover. I thank my producer, Sam Roudman and Tony Wilson, my engineer, Sam Rogenich. Everybody here at HeadGum for making the show possible. Thank you so much for listening, and I'll see you next time on Factually. That was a HateGum podcast. That was a HateGum podcast. What's up, everybody? I'm Kyle Mooney.

And what's up, everybody? I'm Beck Bow. And, man, ooh, we got something to tell. Oh, yeah, we definitely do. Yes, it's a brand new podcast on HeadGum. That's right. and it's called What's Our Podcasts? Yep, and that's because we don't have a single idea what our podcast she'd be about.

Yeah, we don't. So we actually have guests come on and they tell us what they think our podcast should be about and then we try it. Yep, guests like Mark Maren, Jack Black, Bernie Broski, Caper Lan, Bobby Moynihan, Meg Stalter and Tim Balls. Landon Axler,

Jory, Joni McGreeze, and Dender. And Dender. New episodes release every Wednesday. So subscribe to what's our podcast on YouTube or any of your favorite podcast platforms yeah i'm gonna go do it right now