Factually! with Adam Conover - Do Violent Protests Work? with Daniel Gillion

Episode Date: June 5, 2020

In this special edition of Factually!, UPenn political scientist Daniel Gillion joins Adam to discuss the role that violence plays in protest movements both historical and present-day, the truth about what “the right way to protest” is, and gives an optimistic analysis of what’s going on in America right now. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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middle of a massive protest movement right now. In response to the brutal murder of George Floyd and countless other African-Americans at the hands of law enforcement, there's been an outpouring of protest and unrest around this country, unlike anything I've ever seen in my lifetime. And let me remind you, it's also happening in the middle of a historic goddamn pandemic. In every major city in America, protesters are going toe to toe with cops who have responded with disturbing violence, attacking peaceful protesters with tear gas and rubber bullets and using tactics that seem designed to escalate conflict rather than deescalate it. And at the same time, we've seen massive peaceful protests

be followed in many cases by arson and looting. These images of violence have resulted in a frantic, even somewhat obsessive concern in the media and some segments of the public with what the quote, right way to protest is. And that's a hard question to answer. I mean, we can't even figure out if posting a black square on Instagram in solidarity is good or bad. So the question of what role

violence plays in protest is even more, well, incendiary. Will the violence only obstruct the message of the peaceful activists or does it serve a purpose in bringing about change? Well, we spent the week scrambling to bring you this special emergency edition of Factually, and believe it or not, we have found the perfect person in America to talk to us about this topic today. Our guest has devoted his life to studying protests in America. He knows everything about what causes them, how they work, and how they have changed society. His name is Daniel Gillian, and he's a professor of political science at the University of Pennsylvania. He's written a number of award-winning articles and books on subjects

of political protest, racial and ethnic inequality, and America's political discourse on race. And most recently, he's the author of a book that seems perfectly timed for the moment. It's entitled The Loud Minority, Why Protests Matter in American Democracy. He has an immense knowledge of American protest, both violent and nonviolent, and he has an optimistic analysis of what's going on this week that I found really settling and inspiring to hear, and I think you will too. So without further ado, let's get to the interview. Please welcome Daniel Gillian. Daniel, thank you so much for being here.

Thank you for having me. It's good to be here. So you're a political scientist. You study protest movements, their history, their efficacy. I think you're the perfect person for us to talk to this week. I want to know, first of all, what are you thinking when you're seeing what's happening in the streets in America right now? What is your reaction to it? in the streets in America right now. What is your reaction to it? My reaction about these protests is really sort of conflicting. You know, I live in Philadelphia, West Philly. I walk down the streets. I see some of the minority-owned businesses that have been looted. My heart goes out to some of those individuals. But I'm also

hopeful you see young individuals marching, not just in one or two cities, throughout the nation, asking for change. And in my opinion, that is just phenomenal. So I'm hopeful for a better tomorrow while at the same time dealing with the sort of messiness in which protests has taken place. Well, so let's talk about let's talk about this because, you know, you mentioned the looting. Obviously, we've seen that we've seen what is has been described as violence on the part of the protesters, on the part of the police, all of that. I'd like to know, first of all, before we talk about your feelings about what's happening on the ground right now, you've studied what the differences are between violent and nonviolent protests and their efficacy and the effect that they tend to have. And how do you think about that? What are the differences between those historically?

If I look at this from a historical perspective, in an objective perspective, protests, both nonviolent and violent, has the ability to influence government, to influence policies, to influence electoral outcomes. And you can look at protests at any time period. We go back to the 60s when we saw violence occurring in those protests in 67, 68, but even in 64 and 63, you saw a response from government. You go to Rodney King, right? Protests after those protests

in 92, we saw a response. Maxine Waters is putting forth policies as well as other individuals in government. Bush first comes out and makes statements recognizing the hardships of the black community, talking about racial and ethnic inequality in ways he hadn't spoken before. So protest has this ability to have an influence, whether it is violent or nonviolent. Now, we can get into various sorts of discussions of what do we mean by violence are we talking about rioting and looting um or are we talking about violence being imposed upon protesters you know take john lewis for example he has skull fractures from walking across the edmunds pedas bridge that was definitely a violent protest but individuals aren't saying hey that's violent well it violent protest, but individuals aren't saying,

hey, that's violent. Well, it's just because the protesters aren't doing the violence, but violence is being put upon them for sure. And it had the ability to awaken the nation to bring urgency to an issue. Yeah, I saw Nicole Hannah-Jones, who I've had on a previous incarnation

of this podcast, wrote on Twitter a really helpful thread, I thought, which talked about how those protests, the one that you mentioned, were specifically about almost attracting violence, about like putting themselves in harm's way in order to create that urgency and draw that attention. And that that's a violent protest in a way too we don't you know we thought we think about uh when people say oh peaceful protesting is the way to go that doesn't necessarily mean a a quiet protest where nobody is hurt and nothing is destroyed right because even in martin luther king's time that i mean those protests were violent in their way. Absolutely. You listen to King talk actually about Birmingham, and he said what he wanted to do was create a crisis situation there, because that would bring individuals to the table. He

followed up by saying that he does not advocate for violence. But that crisis, that chaotic situation leads to people coming to the table and talking about these issues. And that's important. I should also say that many individuals in the media have characterized these protests, the George Floyd protests, as being just completely chaotic in ways that has never happened before. And the reality is, is that if you look at the 1960s, it was not a completely peaceful cotton candy eating celebration, you know, or a very orderly thing. and, you know, a very orderly thing. It just wasn't. You had elements of the movement that were very violent and elements that were nonviolent.

And it just, I become disheartened when I hear people talk about this particular movement, a movement that's not neat, nice, it's not cookie cutter, but it's raw, it's's emotional and it's very reminiscent of the past and and i think it will be successful so you're saying that when people are saying this uh this is a brand new type of violent protest we've never seen before in america that's not that's not true that's not historically accurate to what the civil rights movement that we were all taught about in school uh was because it it is resembles this more than

we think absolutely we've seen this movie before and and we're watching it again we've seen violence and protests we've seen rioting and looting take place in protests. And when you look at these protests today, you see those protests, the violent rioting, looting protests alongside peaceful protests. In 92, with the Rodney King riots, you saw the same sort of violent protests alongside peaceful protests. We're really creating a dichotomy that doesn't exist. It's not an either or. You're going to have the violent aspect of protest or you're going to have the peaceful aspect of protest. And the reality is that they literally walk right alongside each other. And so if you look at protest the way that it is, if you take it on its face value from what we see the reality is is

that it's it's influential it's able to influence government based on just the simple fact of being both violent and non-violent what wow i mean so this just contrasts in a way with what I've been taught about protest movements. I feel for my whole life, you know, when I was, you know, I grew up in a in a white suburb in Long Island. You know, we learned the history of the civil rights movement to the degree that we did. Right. I've learned much more about it as an adult since. But I got the mainstream American white American education with the civil rights movement. And we also, I remember, had units on on Gandhi, for instance. Right. And the thing that there's almost this religious aspect put upon the nonviolent protest.

And I remember hearing that message from my social studies teacher in like sixth grade saying, see, you don't need violence to do these things. Right. Nonviolent resistance, passive resistance passive resistance is hey that's the way to go that is the true monkish uh dedication to peace um and that's the most effective thing right and i believed that for so long because it really feels like you can have your cake and eat it too well if by being non-violent you can actually do even more, right? Well, that's better. But yeah, I mean, what you're describing runs counter to that in ways that, frankly, at this moment make more sense to me. Yeah, absolutely. You know, if you look at some of the scholars that talk about violence, and you look at some of their research, you know, there's one scholar who measures violence by

whether or not individuals were arrested at a protest event. Well, I mean, if you look at racial and ethnic minority protests over time, the majority of protests involve someone being arrested. And so does that mean the majority of racial and minority protests are unsuccessful or counterproductive? Well, of course not. They are able to increase the saliency in the urgency of this issue. And this is not to say that nonviolence is not successful. It is. But if you sit down and literally measure protest activity, which I have done, I've literally sat down and traced protest activity from 1960 to the day, looking at how it affects bills being passed, presidents talking, Supreme Court justices deciding to take cases and electoral outcomes it is objectively influential both violent and non-violent protests and i think that's the key here is that much of the research

much of the discussion is engaged in from a substantive uh theoretical theoretical perspective as opposed to an objective empirical perspective in which individuals are actually tracking this information with data and not just for one year or one election or even one decade but over time you'll see that there's this influence that's that's indisputable wow and so when you're actually looking at it empirically you're looking at the data violent protest has an impact on policy in a different way or to a larger degree than non-violent protest does or how do you put violent protest adds urgency to violent to non-violent. So when you have nonviolent protests, people are aware,

and that does get individuals to come to the table and to try and pass policies, but that might take a while. It might take months. It might take years for it to take place. But when you have violence included in the protest, the response is significantly quicker. Individuals are more likely to come to the table in a short period of time and put forth greater policies.

So the violence amplifies nonviolent protests. And this is violent capture that I've indicated before. This is violent capture that I've indicated before in terms of looking at those who are having violence imposed upon them, as well as violence that there are sort of giving off. Yeah. So this is this is you're including in that both setting a police car on fire, I assume. Yes. And also John Lewis getting his head cracked by a policeman's baton. Absolutely. I look at violence in in both ways. You know, individuals can sit down here and parse out the different forms of violence and how bloody things can get on one side versus the other side. But the reality at the end of the day is that you have a violent protest that's affecting individuals.

And it has an ability, as I've indicated before, to bring people to the table and to talk about these issues and concerns. And that's what we're seeing what happened with George Floyd, the George Floyd protests, rather, that individuals are coming to the table

and acting. The Democratic Party already is talking about putting forth panels to look at the African-American community. You have individuals now want to bring about systematic change in our criminal justice system. Individuals want to look at other bills. You know, I received an email from my children's elementary principal, a white individual, saying we need to talk more about racial and ethnic inequality. He sent it out to all parents at the elementary school. The conversation is changing on a real sort of honest way. And so that's what we're seeing. And that is not because another protest occurred.

And we've been seeing protests since Ferguson. But this protest is more contentious. It's a little more raw. It's a little more chaotic. But people are talking. Yeah. Yeah, it is nationwide and it's you know this isn't just something that's occurring in one or two cities which is an important point that you that you bring up because if you look at the 67 to 68 riots which people sometimes refer to to say you know that, that led to Nixon coming into office.

Those protests were not nearly as widespread as the protests that we're seeing today. And I always argue that protest has the ability to influence individuals who are most who are closest to the protests and closest proximity. And this is why with the Rodney King riots, Maxine waters acted very forcefully because it was occurring in her backyard but now these protests are occurring in everyone's backyard it's occurring for every congressional member so they have to act they have to right well and i think that's a good point that i saw that in your uh in in some of your past work that maxine waters for instance like i don't have a memory of the 1992 riots. I was too young. I remember the years afterwards. Right. And I remember the way that people talked about it. And it was almost talked about, you know, less as a protest and more as a riot, as like people, people just going nuts and burning burning stuff down right regardless of

what actually happened but you point out how no even that which we would sort of think as a maximally violent event like led to actual change to some degree yeah it definitely led to change in the way in which maxine waters spoke about those um events was just masterfully. I love the way that she referred to them. And she referred to them as righteous anger. I want to call them riots. I want to call them righteous anger. And people were frustrated and upset.

And it did lead to policy change. Even the Los Angeles Police Department changed the way in which they held tenure for police officers. We saw the change in Congress with Maxine Waters introducing bills dealing with housing, infrastructure, and employment. These were specific concerns voiced by protesters as well. And as I've indicated, you see the president of the United States coming and putting forth rhetoric that is sympathetic. He also tries. Now, he sort of he doesn't quite deliver as much on this, but he tries to put forth a weed and feed program donating or putting forth 19 million dollars to address drugs in the area and to improve the community.

It didn't quite pan out the way he had hoped, but he had good intentions. And he specifically said that was in response to the protest activity that we saw with the Rodney King, Rodney King riots. This is George H.W. Bush. Yes. The first, yes, first Bush. right this is george hw bush yes the the first yes first bush yeah and it makes me think that like here in here in los angeles you know we have uh one of the one of the least responsive city councils and mayors to to public protest of any kind you know the the city council almost

uh sees activists asking for something as being a reason not to do it like in general if you listen to the way they talk about you start calling their office and they're like oh well if we're not going to do it just because you say so we're going to keep doing what we were doing but yesterday the city council and the mayor announced that they were going to look for 150 million dollar 150 million dollars in cuts in the lapd budget and now that's a very small cut that's three percent of their total three billion dollar budget but you know one of the main uh uh demands that the protesters are making are to defund the police and to see them make even that amount of change after a week of protests really made me say wow these really did work I, they moved the boulder a tiny bit at least.

A boulder that I literally thought was completely immovable because of the power that the police union and the tough on crime attitude has among the elected officials. As a political reality, they'll never reduce the LAPD budget. And to see them do it

even a little bit is such a massive change. And the other funny thing I saw yesterday was a friend of mine sent me this this image that had been forwarded around that someone's been sending around L.A. that says, please pass this on. Please forward to friends. This is in contrast to what's happening in the streets right now. It said peaceful, silent protest from home this Wednesday at June 3rd at 9 p.m for exactly 8 minutes and 46 seconds let's go outside our homes and shine a flashlight into the sky that's the amount of time that floyd had a knee on his neck pleading for his life so let's all

go outdoors and shine our flashlights at the sky to show that we don't want more violence we want change let's light up la.A. with this peaceful form of protest. And I read that. It's like, this is ludicrous. That's not a protest. You're literally shining your flashlights at the one place where no one can see them. Flashlights don't reflect off the sky. Who is this for? Who's going to see this? And like, who is that? That's a very, you know, quote, peaceful, popularly approved. You know, I'm sure the mayor is totally fine with that sort of form of protest because it puts no pressure on him. Right. But like, absolutely. Yeah, that that that dichotomy really struck me.

If that was all people did, the LAPD budget wouldn't be getting cut by one150 million, right? I think you're right, Adam. But I want to say that there is a, before I become critical of them, let me just say that there is a place for that, right? You know, there is a place for individuals to push back as they see fit, to voice their disdain or their contempt in the way that they see fit in it you know it might be um engaging in marching um it might be sit-ins it might be demonstration

and then again it could be flashlights or it could be tweets it could be bycots. Would you decide not to buy products? And so every aspect of the movement can be helpful. That being said, when you are talking about monumental change taking place, it's going to be tough for a flashlight to move the needle.

You kind of need to inconvenience someone. You need to make a problem for someone and whether that's setting a police car on fire which is you know i think right on the edge there where look i i obviously don't want anybody killed be killed at a protest right there's a form of violence that i would say i'm not happy with setting a police car on fire i'm like hey this is symbolic property damage you know and this is this is the point that's trying to be made and i don't know exactly how i feel about it but it starts to feel you know

but um even something as simple as like you know the uh the edmund pettus bridge hey they were blocking traffic you know what i mean they were getting in somebody's way they were causing a problem for somebody and uh and it seems like that is necessary like you need to fuck up the system a little bit in order to make any change happen it do you feel that way is that the case you definitely have to create a crisis situation i feel that way king feels that way that's exactly what he referred to when he was talking about Birmingham. And that crisis situation can come in multiple ways. But it can't just simply be passive sitting at home, clicking, I don't know, having Twitter fingers saying this is wrong. You need to sometimes be out there in the streets pushing back. Now, that can take multiple forms, but you need to actually put boots on the ground and say, hey, we're not taking this anymore.

I was talking to my wife this morning and I said something to her that I want to repeat. And that is sometimes the response can amplify the cause. And by that, I mean, if you see this violence that's occurring to the black community on almost a day-to-day basis, and you do nothing, you just sit down with it, or you say, well, yeah, that's just another mundane death or another incident, the individuals believe

that this is okay, that this is the norm, that it is the status quo that we can learn to live with. But if you push back, if you get out into the streets and you have a chaotic situation that ends up with a crisis like environment, the cause of why you're pushing back is now amplified. Now we care about Black Lives Matter. Now we care about the issues that individuals are voicing. And so the response that we've seen with the George Floyd protests has amplified the cause that racial and ethnic minorities have been trying to advocate for years. I'm going to admit this and I'm a little bit ashamed of it. When I first saw the first pieces of news about George Floyd's killing, my initial reaction was, oh man, another one of these.

Well, I got a lot of work to do today. You know what I mean? I was like, I'm not going to watch the video. I got a lot going on. There was just one of these Ahmaud Arbery's case a few weeks prior. A little bit the same reaction as when you see a school shooting right you sort of go wow that's terrible gotta get on with my day and it wasn't until

that movement like started that I really took hold of my own feeling in myself of like no yeah this isn't fucking okay and joined that movement as best I could with what i had like it we needed that like the when friday night last friday night i saw rubber bullets fired at protesters in la

something changed for me um in the way i thought about the entire issue. Absolutely. This jolted the American people, largely non-African Americans, in particular, the white community to say, hey, this is wrong. In the international community to say, hey, this is wrong. And you're not, I think, alone in seeing that video

and saying to yourself, this is kind of another video showing the death of a black man many in the black community have felt the same way i mean there's a lot of times in which i receive videos and i just say to myself i can't watch this now i i'm gonna watch it but if i watch it now i'm gonna have the same just raw desperate emotions that were almost hopeless walking around here. And so I put it aside to watch it another day. And then I get to and I watch it and I feel exactly the way I expect it to feel.

Horrible about the situation. The African-American community has been feeling horrible for a very long time. You know, many people ask me, hey, Dan, how are you doing today? And my response to them is, about the same I was feeling last week when I had saw previous videos. This is not as new and as novel to the black community.

If anything, I feel more hopeful today because at least today, I have more people involved in this discussion. I have more allies saying, listen, we need to do something about this. I have more people in government listening and wanting to put forth policies. So if nothing else, I feel better. It's almost like I was getting beat up. I went and told my brother he came in. I know chaos is going to take place because a fight is going to take place, but he's

fighting on my behalf now. And so I'm dainty, you know? I'm very hopeful about what the future holds. Wow, it's really wonderful to hear that. Yeah, I mean, I've spent the last week feeling so tense and disheartened

so much of the time um because you know you go on social media now and it's just image after image of the police abusing people right the police just throwing protesters to the ground uh yeah i'm sure you saw the clip uh one of the most viral clips of the the police rolling up to the store in van nuys where the the family had called the police to stop the store from being looted and then the police arrest the family who owns the store and the tv crews they're going don't arrest them what no those the looters are getting away those are the victims um and you know you sit and watch that and there's curfews in every city yeah and it's it's so upsetting and then i started to realize hold on a second

what we're seeing now is the mass broadcast of millions of images of the exact issue that's being protested this the these protests have brought the image so directly to the fore in in this vivid way where you can't watch this and think when you watch it you have to think oh my gosh yes the police are an abusive like uh paramilitary army that is plaguing our cities there's no other way to watch those images without thinking that for sure individuals eyes have been open and so some of the mundane actions that we might have put off as being, hey, you know, police officers got to uphold the law. They got to do what they have to do. Now people are taking a more critical look at those incidents and saying, hey, is this another incident of police brutality or police overreacting or police doing the wrong thing, we now have a different perspective, a perspective, I think, that will guide us and bring about racial progress

in America. Even the way that we look at protests themselves have become more tolerable, if you will. I mean, you think about Colin Kaepernick, right? I mean, they, individuals, just spurred vitriol to him when he was taking a knee into anyone else. And there was a lot of just hatred. Now individuals would love for protesters to just take a knee, or for NFL players to take a knee. Everyone except probably Drew Brees. He did apologize for that. But it is the case that now the way in which individuals see the pushback is different. And there will always be those who just are critical of progress. You had individuals who were critical of King and the way in which he engaged with certain people who said, don't go to that lunch counter.

You got your own restaurant and your own lunch counter. You have your own bathroom. You have your own school. Stay in your own neighborhoods. If you come into our neighborhoods, you come into our areas, you're doing nothing but inciting violence and chaos. Stay where you are. And so you have that same storyline taking place now in which individuals are critical of protesters just engaging in simple pushing back of the system.

And it's unfortunate, but it is also a hopeful story because as i said before we've seen this movie and it has a happy ending it does indeed uh that is a really wonderful sentiment to take us to our break i gotta read a couple ads but i can't wait to get back and talk more with daniel gillian we'll be right back so daniel uh right before the break you mentioned and i wanted to get to this about how martin luther king in his time was also vilified um in the in the press by many parts of society and i've read that that you know oh this guy's he's an instigator and he's an anarchist and and that sort of language i wonder if you could can you speak to that anymore at all like if if that's a clearer parallel that we might think it

is yeah i can definitely speak to that king for sure had to push back against the system. And his mantra of nonviolence was something that he wanted to put forth. But he also realized that engaging in nonviolence in ways in which you potentially are breaking the law, a law that you didn't believe in at this time, would lead to violent, chaotic and vitriol being put against you. And so when he would attempt to protest within the civil rights movement, there were many in the white community who would see this and say, this is absolutely wrong. But, you know, I would say, too, that it wasn't just pushback coming from the white community. There were actually many individuals in the black church that would encourage King not to engage in these protests, that this was not the way that God wanted them to bring about change. And so he had to fight a little within his own ranks, within his own community.

And sometimes he engaged in action that they did not condone or were not persuaded by. Yet he persisted. And that is absolutely what's taking place right now. absolutely what's taking place right now. You know, I've heard rhetoric from Andrew Young and John Lewis, who have been somewhat critical of aspects of the protests. And I say, you got to listen at some point to these individuals. They were on the front lines. They know what were successful. They have the battle scars to prove it. But alongside that, we also have to allow this generation to find their own way. And in doing so, it might require us to not be as critical, to be more encouraging, to direct them, but to direct them in a way that is encouraging

because they might take a different path, but their destination will be the same, and that is racial progress. So I want to know if, given your broad view of protests in America and American history, I know you're putting this, what the events of this week in historical context and telling us they're not as new as we think they are.

Right. However, they're also different than the other protests that have happened in my lifetime. You know, I think about, for instance, the women's March,

which was, you know, right after Trump's inauguration was massive, but had a very different character. It was almost like a celebration in a way. There wasn't even any marching. I went to the one in LA. We all stood in the street and then eventually wandered home

because it was so many people, right? And I don't even remember seeing many cops, right? And I also think about, say, Ferguson, right? Much more localized, for instance. It's in this one area even though it's the exact same issue um and so i'm looking at what is different about this that caused it to take on this particular character is it obviously differences with uh uh you know the community that's being affected that we're talking about is there something to do with the fact

everyone's been cooped up from COVID-19, for example? What causes it to take on this character in your view? I think there's a combination of factors that caused it to be slightly different in a way that leads to this immense response. But first is the actual video. You watch that tape. It's heart wrenching. video. You watch that tape. It's heart wrenching. The police officer had his knee on George Floyd's neck for an extended period of time. But it wasn't the actual literal knee. The knee on his neck was symbolic of much of the discussion had in the black community of the white man keeping the black man down. And in this case, we're literally seeing this manifest itself in real time, right before our eyes.

As George Floyd becomes so submissive that he screams out for his mother yeah it is a horrific experience anyone that has a heart or soul sees that and is moved by it and says that something has to take place so the video was one aspect the the second aspect um for sure is the contentious nature. I mean, you have protests that involve arrests, involve cops, involves violence of individuals being injured and being hurt. You've had deaths occur. I actually rank protests and I quantify them by the content that they have. And so whether or not a protest has more than 100 people, whether or not it lasts for more than a day, whether or not it has violence. And so when I talk about the impact of protests,

I really do a deep dive. In comparing this protest to other protests, it has it all. It's large, it lasts for a long period of time, it has multiple individuals involved, cops are present, death and so that context amplifies the movement and it's taking place on a national and international stage i mean you have protests that are occurring in berlin and toronto and london you name it and so front page news in all those countries too absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely.

I mean, people are talking about these issues in ways they haven't spoken about them before. But it's because of the type of protests that we're seeing in America. So it's different in that way. And some might say that it is also the cooped up feeling we've had with the coronavirus and part of that could play a role um is as well but i don't want to give that too much credit the reality is is that if if you look at that tape and don't feel as though you have to do something then there's nothing inside you i wonder as well if there's some, and by the way, certainly I agree with that, that the tape is almost,

it's one of those things where I had to keep clicking through random segments because I couldn't bear to watch more than five seconds at a time. You know, like I saw the whole thing, but I just like watching it beginning to end is, is so difficult. But I also wonder if part of like part of what seems so special about this is, again,

the protest is against the very people who are lining up in a phalanx against the protest, right? It's a protest about policing, about abusive policing. And the police are there and their reaction seems different. You know, like it's not like during the women's march

there were a lot of men walking around grabbing all the women by the foot by you know what i mean like like like like saying we're gonna hold on a second we men are under attack we have to go perpetrate the exact same thing that's being protested yet that's what's happening in our cities you you sort of feel that to me it seems as though the police are acting defensively and violently in order to protect their sovereignty and the unquestioned nature of their power. And that's part of what is bringing this to a head in a way that feels unique to me. I wonder if you agree with that or if you have another view i do to an extent right because we for sure i i love your analogy about the women's movement and not being spelled like that because

i think that's absolutely right and we're seeing um sort of a different situation right with um the george floyd protests individuals are pushing back against police, but the police are policing them. However, you have also seen individuals, police officers kneel down with protesters, walk with protesters, talk to them. And that is also different than what we've seen in the past. And it is encouraging. But to your point, though, about the policing and, you know, you're pushing back against individuals you're policing, I think our president is amplifying some of that contention with his actions. You know, in my book, I call it the loud minority. It comes from it's a play on words from Richard Nixon's The Silent Majority, in which he tried to encourage those individuals who weren't pushing back against Vietnam to join him. He saw a sign that said, bring the boys home. And he told the American people, don't listen to that protester. I need

you, the silent majority, those who aren't protesting, to stand with me. And that fell out of usage because it had a racial bend to it. The majority of individuals coming home from Vietnam were brown and black individuals. They were coming home disproportionately in body bags. And so it fell out of usage until we saw it again when none other than Donald Trump was running for office in 2015 and 2016. He actually made it into a saying. 2016. He actually made it into a saying, you could actually go on to Amazon and buy a sign that says the silent majority stands with Trump for the low price of, I think, $4.76. Two thumbs up, I actually believe. And so he wanted to bring that notion of galvanizing the silent majority back to life. He stopped using it a little bit during his time in office, but he just tweeted the other

day, the silent majority needs to push back. And so when he looks at protests, especially those protests that are not supportive of him, Donald Trump has a very negative reaction to protest activity. His willingness to really clamp down on these protests by trying to enlist the military and having troops in our towns, that escalates the situation. And I think that it makes that contention even worse. And I think that it makes that contention even worse. Well, let's bring this to national politics, because I'd love to talk about how the protest is viewed, you know, through now are extremely polarized lens. I mean, not to say that in Nixon's day, right, the country was less politically polarized. It was still very polarized around the issue of race.

But today, you know, we've got these separate media ecosystems. And I wonder if you have any view on how, you know, how the protest is playing in the various parts of the American psyche and what effects you think it might have as a result. I've noticed that the right wing, for instance, right wing media in the past, like with Mike Brown, they would do, oh, he was asking for it. He was, you know, no angel himself, that sort of rhetoric. In this case, it's very much,

oh, this is this, the murder of George Floyd was horrible. However, the protests are nothing but violent looting is sort of what's playing. I wonder what your view is. When you look at the national media, for sure, in this polarized society we was wrong, but it also was related to race. Individuals can understand, sympathize with the protesters, even if they aren't completely supportive of some of the more violent aspects of it. But they realize that a discussion on race has to be had. In my eyes, when I sit and listen

to the conservative perspective, it is, as you've indicated, yes, this is wrong. George Floyd should not have died. The police should not have behaved in that way. But let's keep it moving. You know, it's not, hey, we need to do something about this. And what's definitely not happening is an honest discussion about race.

If you listen to the conservative perspective, rarely do they link what has happened to George Floyd to an aspect of race, an aspect of racial inequality. They just look at it as an isolated case where a police was behaving poorly. Not a bad apple, not a systematic problem that goes along the lines of racial bias and racial inequality in America and their unwillingness to at least acknowledge what most of America sees is pragmatic. Now, the way in which we see, I think, a response taking place among voters is really interesting. In the past, I've analyzed the way in which racial and minority protests and other protests have an effect upon electoral politics. And it's fascinating. When you look at minority protests, they have the ability to link up with other liberal protests.

And when they do, then they're able to persuade and mobilize liberal voters. The same thing can take place on the conservative side. But we just happen to be in a four-year time period in which we've seen some of the greatest protests in generations. You had thousands of protests take place with the Women's March. You also had protests pushing back against guns in our schools, protests on immigration, and now you're seeing protests on race. You're talking about a blue wave coming. There's a blue tsunami that is coming to the electorate that will have an influence. And it not only influences how individuals turn out to

the polls, but it influences whether or not individuals decide to donate resources. Campaign contributions actually increase on the liberal Democratic side when you have liberal protests. The individuals who decide to run for office also changes. And then, of course, electoral outcomes, they also change. So protest has a rippling effect on the electoral process. Yeah, I was going to ask you if you what effect you thought this might have on the upcoming election. It sounds like you've just said what you think that is it will have i think uh a very strong impact uh and that impact is measurable uh you look at the protest that occurred in minneapolis in 2016 that dealt

with black lives matter you know it you, sometimes I say what we're seeing, it's different, but it continues a narrative that the African-American community has had to deal with. So we saw protests pushing back against police violence in 2016. In 2016, the majority, well, rather not the majority, but there was a large portion of the African-American community who did not turn out and vote. Fewer people turned out to vote in the black community in 2016 than they did in 2012. And that's somewhat understandable. President Obama wasn't on the It actually increased. In Minneapolis, it jumped up almost 3% in Philadelphia here. It also jumped up 3% in which you saw a lot of Black Lives Matter

protests. Now you take that in which Black Lives Matter, they were protesting in a lot of different places, but the protests were not as contentious and as dynamic as they are right now. You take that and you compare it to today and imagine what the outcome is going to be. I think individuals are going to turn out to vote. And I don't think that's going to be for the benefit of those individuals who do not support the cause of the protesters. Now, what that leads me to as a question, though, is, you know, right now it's a very we're in the hot zone, you know, in terms of how we feel about this issue and these protests right now. Things are very hot. And we're we're coming up to a presidential election, which is also, you know, naturally has the highest turnout. Right. turnout right um but what do you think are the prospects are uh you know 18 months from now on this on this issue right um like protests can only be sustained so long and i'm starting to have

that feeling of you know i'm we're in the middle of it i'm like okay everything feels different now there feel like a lot of different possibilities like i said said, in LA here, I'm like, oh my God, they're going to cut the LAPD budget at all? Incredible. What else is possible? What else can we do? I hope this continues. And then in the back of my mind, I'm like, well, hold on a second. These moments come and go. Right? And what are things going to be like

in 18 months? And do the people in power just need to wait it out? And how do you feel about that? How do protests, how can protests create a lasting impact? That's a great question, because sometimes individuals want change tomorrow. They want it the next week, the next month. And sometimes it takes time, but we don't want it to take too long because if it takes too long for them to be changed, then, you know, American people have a short term memory.

Yeah, this is why they don't live that long. It's like the James Baldwin interview that was making the rounds. And he says, how long do you want me to wait? I'm old. I'm going to die soon. And then he died pretty soon after that. Like, you know, yeah, yeah, this is this is this is right people people also don't live long enough but you when when you look at the impact of protest at the beginning stages in the immediate aftermath you have to hope that that response is a powerful response because that response can plant seeds for something that's greater. So if you have politicians that are introducing bills that look to reform the criminal justice system, and I'm not talking about just giving lip service, but actual concrete bills that would look to help the racial and ethnic minority community or bills that address education in our schools along the lines of race or looking to address changes in the police department,

the way that they behave and the way that they conduct business. You put those bills forth and those bills are passed. Then what you're doing is you're setting us up for the future. Now we're no longer talking about the first bill. The same way we're no longer today talking about the first civil rights bill or the first voting rights bill. We're now tweaking a policy that's already been put in place. So the hope is that immediately following protests, that there is something substantial. And then we just continue to build and work on that initial um seed i'm

curious if you can speak to what role protests play in american history like in a broad way like is this uh you know we have these uh stories of the civil rights movement of these protest movements do you feel that we have a special relationship with protest movements in this country? You know, we have a very special relationship with protest movement, but it's different depending upon what community you're in. I think if you are in the black community, it is our go to political tool. the black community it is our go-to political tool and that's because the majoritarian constructs like elections which is a majoritarian tool and democracy understandable on one but it's majoritarian or public opinion it's a majoritarian construct you you oftentimes look at results in which the majority feels this is the case so minorities often struggle to have their voice heard. And that's why

protest is the go to tool. So there's a the black community embraces protests. However, I think the white community sometimes sees protest as a nuisance, as a unruly behavior, as, oh, my gosh, here they go again. They can't just be happy with what they have. And so there's a more combative relationship when you step outside the black community looking at protests. Then there are these moments, and they aren't often. Sometimes they happen after the fact. But there are these moments in which everyone comes together and says, you know, this is appropriate. Individuals should be pushing back. Enough is enough. And I think that's what we're experiencing right now.

We're experiencing a moment right now in which major aspects of society are speaking in unison. And they're saying to themselves, enough is enough. We stand with you. We support these protests that are occurring in this nation. And so we're all on the same page today. Now, this sort of honeymoon period will not last. You fast forward maybe three or four months. I mean, even when the NFL season starts back up, if individuals might take knees and people might push back.

But I'm going to relish this moment because at this very moment right here, we are all on the same team. We're all in the same choir. We're all in the same choir. We're all speaking with the same voice, and it's beautiful. I really do feel that way. I mean, even, you know, I called my parents, who are, you know, white baby boomers, right? And I talked about what's going on. And, you know, they emphasized a little bit more than I would, like, like all there's looting and there's violence and things like that. And I was sort of trying to figure out, feel them out, see how they feel about it.

And then they said, well, but there's like a real injustice here. Like this is like they're they're protesting against racism and it's and it's a real problem and we need to change it. Despite that, you know, us feeling a little bit different despite us looking at the protests in slightly different ways we were on the same page about and i do feel that that large parts of the country are on that page absolutely you know i think you're not your parents aren't the only ones that's doing that it's but your parents actions are so encouraging because it speaks to how widespread this movement has become and how influential it has become. But you also look at corporations, for example. I mean, I can't tell you how many emails I've received from companies that I use who are saying, hey, we believe that this is wrong.

We stand with individuals that are looking to push back um you got messages from nike and shoe companies nintendo put one out as you're playing your games here mario's like uh it's a me I support Black Lives Matter This is right And that's a good thing We want everyone To be speaking in unison Saying that this is wrong

Whether it's the black community The older generation Individuals in middle America White individuals On the west coast um latinos or the mario brothers we we want to all be on the same plumbers from brooklyn yes that's right that's beautiful it is beautiful you keep giving me perfect ending points for this podcast but i got a couple more questions for you because you're such a delight to talk to.

So I'm going to need you at some point to give us a rousing, positive ending one more time later on. But I do want to ask, given again that you you study protest movements, I'm so curious about is the difference in the way that the media and the public viewed the the protests that we saw back in April where you had white Americans, you know, going to Huntington Beach and saying, you know, open up COVID-19. I want to get a haircut is the way they were caricatured. Right. But we got to put America back. This is tyranny, da da da da da, which were much, much smaller, but got a huge amount of very, very positive press coverage, even though there were a lot of sort of frightening, you know, violent, semi-violent elements than people bringing, you know, open carry rifles to state houses and things like that. And you saw a lot of response to them in the government. I mean, a lot of ways it seemed like that was a turning point in California and how the governor and the mayors talked about the COVID-19 closure as a result of

a couple dozen, you know, white folks showing up to the, you know, Huntington Beach City Hall or whatever. That was how it looked to me. I wonder how it looked to you. Well, first of all, I'll say that no one or no group has a monopoly on protest. This tool is very effective across racists and groups and countries. And so you saw many individuals who likely were pushing a more conservative agenda to open up and it forced individuals to listen. Even the attention of, yeah, exactly. It worked and it brought people to the table. So I see that as a hopeful, positive thing because I like it when individuals are able to bring about change when they feel as though they don't have a voice. That being said, though, when you look at some of those protests, even within those

protests, you could see racial and ethnic inequality. For example, the individuals who went into the Michigan Statehouse fully guarded with arms rather to the T with weapons standing and shouting down police officers was a sight to behold. Because I can only imagine if the tables were turned and African-Americans were guarded with or armed with weapons, weapons, shouting down police officers within the statehouse, there would have been some violence that broke out. And it would not have come from the African-American community. It's almost a form of white privilege to be able to protest in certain ways that African Americans cannot protest in. I mean, I think one aspect of the reason why King had a nonviolent pushback was that he was a black man. And at that time, the way that you push back can't be the same way that your white neighbor

pushes back. And that still exists today. The way in which African Americans can talk to police officers, even me, I walk down the street, I'm very conscientious of what I say when I see officers and how I behave. And I try and tell my kids who have two black boys to be conscientious of their actions. But as a black man, you have to be mindful of this when you engage with police officers. And I think many times white America does not have that same fear and they can push back to a greater extent than the black community. Yeah, I saw really striking retweeted yesterday, a tweet by Ibram X. Kendi. Hope I'm pronouncing his name correctly.

About from April saying, imagine if it was black folks taking to the streets demanding their freedom. They would send out the National Guard. Trump would rage on Twitter. I was like, oh, my God, he saw the future. Like what an incredible gift of prescience. Trump would rage on Twitter. I was like, oh, my God, he saw the future. Like what an incredible gift of prescience. And then I was like, well, actually, yeah, I think I understand. I think I know why he was able to predict the future, you know, but he understood something about American society that that maybe I was a little bit more slow on the uptake for. But that's really it's really striking. I mean, those those differences are so clear and

obvious terrain to us right now. They're, they're in such sharp relief. And maybe that is the point that you're making, that that is what protest does for us is it throws those things into sharp relief. So they're unignorable. Absolutely. It forces us to sit down and ask the tough questions. Protest is able to influence the way that we think about these issues. So, yeah. friends on social media of how do i help how do i help you know obviously you know there's folks joining the protest as well but there's many folks who who uh can't or or uh uh not able to um and so they're they're like what what do i do and they're posting memes of oh what if i do this or i donated to that you should donate to that um and i'm curious what you feel again talking about uh the political power of this movement and what adds power to it uh what do you feel adds power to it what can folks at home be doing folks at home can contribute in their own ways you know at a very sort of at a very personal level, they can become more conscientious and aware of the inequalities that exist.

I mean, at some point in time, we have to come to the realization that racial inequality exists in America. inequality exists in America. Now that's a simple statement, but it's a statement in which there's a vast swab of America who does not agree and is not willing to acknowledge that that's the case. Before we can begin to change, we have to realize we got a problem and stop walking around as though the emperor is wearing clothes the emperor does not have any clothes on and if we know that we're naked and then we know that we can dress ourselves with greater policies that address racial inequality but it begins and on on the individual basis with individuals saying to themselves yeah there's a problem happening here um in america and individuals can not only improve the way in which they see it but how they also

talk about it in day-to-day conversations um you know with social media right now individuals have the veil of anonymity that they can go on and say the the darndest things to to people well it is you know sometimes it's it's tough but that that so the dialogue that we have with one another whether social media or it's face to face um that has to um change uh you know it's a situation in which now as i've said before people ask me hey dan are you doing? Because now there's an awakening. I realize that you are struggling in America in ways that I did not understand. And that realization should bring about greater discussions with one another. And we should have those discussions with one another. I think what the principal did at my kid's school was very important to have this discussion

among parents. That's a major change. And, you know, I also feel, too, that some of these little forms of activism might not be huge. You know, putting a flashlight up into the sky is not a a big a big thing it's not going to change the world um as we see at least i i don't think just that one actually will um but it is the the small things that add up in society oftentimes when we look at protests we say to oh, we want that next major

bill. And it's, you know, it doesn't come, but it doesn't mean that the impact of protests hasn't been widespread and has changed societal conversations. And it's changed the way in which governors and politicians and presidents are speaking about these things. And so when individuals are pushing back and when individuals want to stand with racial and ethnic minorities with this particular cause, they can do it in their own way. And I don't want to belittle or put down any sort of form of activism you want to engage in. If you want to go ahead and rip up white paper because you think it's too white, it should be brown. Go ahead. that that's that's your form of expression your form of pushing back and and i'm there with you so i i love that because there's been so much if i can you know in addition to what's been happening in the streets the conversation that we've been having has been

so much about what is the appropriate form of protest, right? In the media, it's, oh, is violence appropriate? We've talked extensively about that. On social media, it's like, is it okay? Is the blacks posting a black square? Is that good or bad? I don't know. Like, what do I do?

And you have, it sounds like you have a very inclusive view of it. It's the collected, it's this collective mobilization. It's the it's the collected it's this this collective mobilization. It's all forms of protest together as loud as possible that are that are moving the needle here. Absolutely. It is the individual who is walking down the street with a banner saying Black Lives Matter. It is the individual who is also probably burning a police car it's the individual sitting home in their bed cuddled up and just tweeting oh this is wrong i can't believe you

it is all of us contributing together as a society pushing back that allows for the movement to become a movement. Actually, protest is simply the actions of going out, hitting the grounds. But a movement requires more than just those actions. It requires even a change of thought, the way that we conceive of the world that is what's taking place right now is that more people have joined the movement and that's that's that's powerful it's the man you're making me see in a completely different way because it's the change in the world that we're trying to effectuate is obviously important the change in us though is like what we can contribute. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. We can change. We aren't politicians. We're not Supreme Court justices. We have to do what we can do on a day to day basis. I have probably a little more wiggle room to affect the minds because I'm at an Ivy League school and can

talk to students on a day-to-day basis. But if you are just an average Joe, the way that you talk to your kids, the way that you talk to your spouse, the way that you talk to yourself, like, how do you see things and say to yourself, man, you know, this is probably not the way that I should perceive this. All of that matters. And, you know, this is probably not the way that I should perceive this. All of that matters. And, you know, what's beautiful about, I think, these moments in history in which you have protests is that it becomes very informative and educational. Oftentimes, many in the community are not aware of injustices taking place. They don't realize the disparity or the level of disparity. There are times in which I don't even realize the level of disparity that

occurs in the black community. But when protests shine the spotlight on these issues, especially racial and ethnic minority concerns, we educate ourselves and we educate ourselves about educational inequality, educate ourselves about housing inequality, educate ourselves about police brutality. And from that education, now, of course, we'll become better people. Of course, we're going to be more cognizant of what's going on because now we're informed that it exists it has been incredible to talk to you uh uh that you've given me made me feel so hopeful about what it has been a very confusing chaotic week uh and you've put it into such a wonderful historical perspective and future

forward looking perspective as well I can't thank you enough for being here and I hope I know you said before we started rolling that you're doing a lot of other media today and I want you to go do it and bring the things that you're saying to as many people as possible

I definitely will thank you so much for having me if i could i just want to end with this note and that is that um just one protest i think happening in one city on one day can have a rippling effect on the entire electoral process in the policy process but a social movement bound with multiple protests over multiple days and across multiple cities can lead to a political revolution. And I think that's what we're witnessing now. Hell yeah. Thank you so much, Daniel, for being here. I can't thank you enough. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Well, thank you once again to Daniel Gillian for coming on the show.

I hope you found that conversation as helpful as I did. That is it for us this week on Factually. We'll be back next Wednesday with a new episode. I want to thank our producers, Dana Wickens and Sam Roudman, our engineers, Ryan Connor and Brett Morris, Andrew WK for our theme song, My Name's Adam Conover. You can find me online at adamconover.net or at Adam Conover,

wherever you get your social media. And until next time, stay curious and thanks for listening. That was a HeadGum Podcast.